Ep 002: From Nothing to House-Flipping 70 Deals a Year and More with Phillip Sack

What if the most valuable business skill isn’t brilliance, but the courage to care? In this episode, host Paul Fontanelli connects with Phillip Sack, who shares his journey from humble beginnings in government housing to building teams, scaling real estate ventures, and designing a 75-acre adventure park that brings families together. Phil reveals how emotional intelligence (EQ) became his foundation for leadership and learning — from flipping 71 homes in a year to creating long-term, efficient investments in self-storage and real estate. 

Along the way, he shares practical insights on building resilience, sharpening strategy, and leading with heart. 

A conversation about growth, grit, and the mindset that turns everyday challenges into bold opportunities.

Transcript

Meet Phil And The No‑Lines Park

SPEAKER_00 0:00

All right, everybody. Welcome to the Boulder Business Podcast. Today we have special guest Phil Sack on the line with us. And uh Phil, thanks for joining.

SPEAKER_01 0:09

I don't know how special it is for uh me to be the special guest, but thanks for having me. Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

It's been a while. Same, it has. So let's do a quick little intro of how we met. So, you know, this is a brand new podcast. So I'm Paul Fontanelli. I'm the owner-founder of Boulder Adventure Park here in Texas. And I met Phil based on a project that he's developing up in Indiana. And I'll have you tell us a little bit about the project, Phil. But uh, I was just consulting a little bit, doing a little bit of work. It's been a little bit of a while. Hopefully we continue to work together in the future. But Phil, tell us a little bit about the project you're working on.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

You and I met because I was so fascinated by your indoor facility through the slide. And uh so our facility is gonna be an agriculture entertainment theme park. The goal is to have as many attractions without lines, family-based nature entertainment, where instead of families going in all kinds of different directions and being in lines, it's where anyone from one year old to a hundred years old can hang out together and whether it's in the water, the lake, or on another attraction, the snow hill, which is similar to your slide, indoor slide, which everybody loves. Yeah, we're we're excited for it. It's it's definitely different than your traditional theme park, and we think it's just a way for families to get back to nature-based type activities.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Yeah, I love it. Good description. We'll touch base more on that in the end at the end of the interview. I'd love to hear how it's going, where you're at, and all that good stuff. But before we get there, let's talk a little bit about your path. Um, because I was so impressed when I meet met you for the first time, Phil, for a number of reasons. One, I had an opportunity to go up to Wisconsin Dells with your team, and we were doing a little bit of research, RD, if you will, checking out some places. And first thing I recognized was just how good of a team you built. They all have great camaraderie, they work together well, different levels of expertise. And obviously, you're uh, you know, heading that team up uh overall, and your your group is, I should say. Uh, but then also, you know, we had a great time. We were hanging out, we went out, had some good time, and then the next day it was all business. And I think I was so impressed with just how your leadership style can be fun, exciting, have a good time with the team, and then right, you know, flip into the business mode and you were dialed into what we needed, how we need to make progress. Just your leadership skills were very impressive. And then to finish it off, the end of the trip, I had like one extra day to

Leadership, EQ, And Team Culture

SPEAKER_00 2:30

stick around Indiana before I flew out. And most leaders of your level would be like, hey, thanks for coming out. Let me know if you need anything, maybe we'll grab dinner or something like that. But instead, you invited me into your home. And that was just an amazing level of just connection that you built for me that I was just so impressed by, just how down to earth you were. And your home was amazing. We just had a great time, hung out in the hot tub, got some Taco Bell. But just overall, I was super impressed with you. And I that's why I wanted to bring you on the podcast to hear a little bit more about your story, get to know you more, and you know, share it with our listeners.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Well, yeah, we were glad to have you. That was a great time. Um I wish you wouldn't have uh told me about the uh Taco Bell French fries, though. That was that was not doing me a good service at all. The taco fries, you gotta have them. So it's so good. Um, yeah, my path is I I come from government housing and uh never really had any real mentorship in terms of business. My mentorship was always just how to survive, you know, how to get the bills paid, keep the lights on, and uh, you know, uh raised by a single mom. So for me, mom would say, hey, we're we're like $18 for the electric bill or the gas bill. And I'm like, all right, I'm gonna go out and hustle and mow yards. And and I think that experience for me, I learned at a very early age that in order to get things done, you got to have action. That was just instilled in me as a survivor was as action is what equals results. You can talk about it, you can plan about it, you can theme about it, theory about it, but action outdoes everything. And so I was fortunate enough that that that really helped me out in life to do that. So the next thing was I realized that I wasn't the smartest guy in school. And um, so you know, when you talk about leaders and building business and being successful, you need IQ and you need EQ. You know, obviously EQ being emotional intelligence. And I was fortunate my first, I did uh life life insurance sales, the toughest stuff you can do. Okay, and uh that was just because I believed in it because I uh because of my uh the way I was raised, and my father passed away when I was real young. We didn't have life insurance. So I believed in that. But my point of that is yeah, is uh when I believe in something, I learned at an early age, and this was probably I was doing this in college selling insurance. I knew at an early age that again, uh if I had to go out and make it happen, it was up to me. Uh what is it what it what's the cheesy saying? If it's to be, it's up to me. And I really took that to heart. So I I uh you know, crashed and burned a lot, trying to go out and really it was door-to-door cells, what it felt like. It's probably the toughest stuff you could do. But what I realized in that process was real quick that people didn't care how much I knew until they knew how much I cared. Yes. And I quickly realized that I think I was just blessed with even though having a tough childhood, that I've just always cared about people. I went into a staffing agency that was growing uh tremendously in the early 90s. And fortunately, our leader and owner was a tremendous leader, high IQ, high EQ guy. And I realized this is sounds, this is sound cheesy, but the best book I've ever read, besides the Bible, that's impacted my life a lot, is this has got to sound cheesy, is How to Win Friends and Influence Others. Okay. Uh by uh Dale Carnegie. And we were mandatory to read that when I started this job in in the 90s. And it was a staffing firm, you know, I was making 24 grand a year, working my butt off, working 12 hour days, uh, with the hopes of moving up in the company. Well, I quickly realized what a punk I must have been. You know, even though I was a hustler, I felt like I was a punk and didn't really live life the proper way, treat people the way you should be treated. I didn't know that I thought I did, but I kind of quickly realized that I wasn't treating people the way I wanted. And when I saw my leader and his name, his name's Stephen Basciotti, that name me ring a bell with some people because he owns the Baltimore Ravens. Wow. Um and he and he was kind of the first person from a business standpoint that I got to watch at ground level and just watch him take a company that was was just getting started and turn it into a billion-dollar company. It's still a huge company today. Obviously, he bought the Ravens. This was back when he bought them in 2000. So he's still someone I really admire. And what I what I learned from his leadership, and it got funneled down through all of management uh over the years, was uh understanding that there's a lot of people have high IQ but no EQ, or there's people who have high EQ and no IQ. And I felt like that IQ I could gain by reading books and and and and asking people who knew more about things than I did. And EQ to me was easy. It was just caring about people and taking an interest. Um and so when you talk about, when you say when you met us that first time at Wisconsin Dales, and we went from having a lot of good times and staying out late and having fun, and then the next day it was business, it's a switch. You know, we had to go from the EQ and having the fun stuff and getting to know each other to okay, now let's take action, let's get things done. Yep. I I don't want to keep rambling on because I could ramble on forever, as you know, I'm a talker. But yeah, I I don't know if I answered your question, but yeah, for me growing up a survivor and then and then realizing that you got to surround yourself with people who know more than you, and then actually doing you know, doing things because you care, that combination has served me very well with putting good teams together.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Yeah, clearly. I mean, Phil, you can ramble on as you say all you want because you just gave us gold throughout. Like I'm so excited to dig into your story more. Let's stick with the EQIQ part for a moment because you're right. The IQ can be learned, it can be, etc. But EQ is so valuable and I think it's it's underrated overall. What would you say? Advice would you give to someone as far as just the importance of EQ, how to build their EQ, and just have that skill that you've obviously developed and do very well at?

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Well, I always thought of myself as growing up, I always looked around and thought everybody picked up things faster than me or knew more than me. And I think part of it was uh, you know, in certain families and stuff, if you have mom and dad and a really good base and they and they're mentoring you, you know, they're gonna have an advantage. And uh, you know, my mom was just fighting to keep us a you know, keep food in our mouths. So there was a lot of times after work to to do a lot of teaching and stuff, but but I learned life lessons from my mom. But I would say the biggest thing uh with IQ and EQ is an IQ person, and this is this is I always felt like that that oh I'm just not smart. And what I realized was it wasn't that, it was I needed to get into books, I needed to ask questions, I needed to realize, okay, I always felt like people just knew stuff. And I realized like I remember algebra thinking, what the hell are we putting letters with numbers? That's how dumb was. And like, I'm like, what the hell is this? What's why do we got these in here? You know, and I'm watching people around me just pick this stuff up, and I'm thinking, I'm just dumb. And what I realized was is that I didn't know how to learn. Okay, and I honestly looking back on it, it was my um my back was against against the wall my junior year in college when I was when I was, I still don't know how I got into college, and I barely survived getting through because I just never was a good student learner. I didn't know how to learn, I didn't know how to study. Yeah, my junior year, my back was against the wall.

Learning How To Learn

SPEAKER_01 9:40

I'll never forget I was gonna get kicked out of college if I didn't get an 88% on an accounting final exam. And this is this has been the greatest lesson in life I've ever had in terms of never give up. And I remember the professor that back then, you know, we had to go look at our social security number to see our grades. And I remember that professor called me in and she said, Hey, she goes, I know that you're gonna get kicked out of the business school if you don't get an 88%. And she said, the highest grade we've ever gotten on this final exam is an 86%. She goes, This is the tough exam ever. And she goes, So I think you, you know, was kind of giving me the whole you need to be thinking about what your next route is and all that. Wow. I left that. The test was gonna be that was at four in the afternoon. The test the next day was gonna be at 9 a.m. I went home, opened that book up, that counting book. I started at chapter one, and it was 12 chapters, and I learned accounting at that time was counting 202. I learned that I got a Mountain Dew, and and I can't imagine what I if you had access to Adderall these days or something. Maybe I could have learned two subjects, but I had a Mountain Dew and just was drinking them, and and I'm reading this book and studying, and and uh and I got done with it, and I I headed to the test. I mean, I studied straight on, I headed to the test, and I mean I was a zombie, and I took the test, and I remember as I was studying for this test, I kept thinking as I'd get stuck and couldn't learn something, I kept going, okay, I gotta go back and reread this. And and I was so determined that that I was going to figure out, because I knew you if I didn't understand chapter one, there's no reason to go chapter five. And so I I used this book to figure, okay, I didn't have anyone to ask, it was too late. And I'm like, I'm gonna figure out this accounting stuff. And so at that moment, you know, you have this, you have like at the end of a chapter, you have questions, you go back and test yourself. I would test myself, I got it wrong, I'd go back and figure out why I got it wrong, and I wouldn't just kid myself. I would be like, okay. And as soon as I figured out, I went to the next chapter, next chapter, and sometimes I'd have to go back to another chapter. Anyway, because I made myself just sit in a room with a Mountain Dew for it was about I don't know, 12 hours straight. Yeah. When I got done with that, I was walking to that class. Uh, this was in uh uh late April of 1990, uh, this would have been 92, and uh it was a nice warm day in Indiana, which was not not usual in April. Um, and I remember going, I'm gonna get 100% on this test. I remember thinking that. I'm and I and I hadn't even taken it yet, and I'm like, I don't care what happens at this test. I'm I'm I'm good. If if I don't make it, if I get kicked out of college, I'm fine. So I take the test, I get done with the test, and there was a five-point bonus question, and I never got bonus questions. I did, I got done. I was the first student to turn the test in, sit on the teacher's desk, and she goes, that bad, huh? I go, no, I didn't, I go, I didn't miss a question. She goes, Come on, Phil. I go, I'm telling you, I got 105%. Anyway, I had to wait, sweat it out. Uh, so that was at 9 a.m. I had to sweat it out until like the next day at one o'clock before she posted them. And I go look at my number and I see my social security, my last four, my social security, and I see 92%. Wow. And I was pissed. I was like, you want that 105. It was the first time in my life, Paul, where I actually was like, I want to talk to the teacher and find out how I missed these. Yeah. Whereas usually I wanted to talk to the teacher and find out if I could retake it.

SPEAKER_00 13:03

That's right. That's right. Wow. And so that's just your dedication, your commitment, and your preparation.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

I mean, it so that moment, here's my point with EQ and IQ. At that moment, I real I learned how to learn. I was, I had to be, I was 21 years old and I learned how to learn. And I remember thinking, wow, I didn't realize if I could have had that experience in high school, I mean, I would have gotten straight A's. Yeah. It's it just it was so irritating that I remember thinking. So at that point, I had a GPA that was in the low twos, and then I still had a full, full year to go. Yep. And uh that last year, uh, I got like a 3.8, never, never even gotten close to that. And it wasn't even hard. I just because I had confident, I had confidence that I'm not dumb. I just didn't understand how to learn. And maybe, maybe my IQ is lower, but that just means I have to work a little harder to learn it and ask questions. There you go. And at that moment, I honestly, it was the best feeling ever. I thought I could do anything.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

I thought I could do anything in the world. Oh, what a good story. Thank you for telling that. We actually had someone on the podcast that runs a school up in New Hampshire, and that's exactly what they focus on is everyone learns different. And the traditional model may not be right for everybody, and so it's a different type of school that they run, and they do help kids figure that out earlier. And to you, obviously, that was life-changing.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

I got chills talking about it again, but one other thing I would say is I remember early in that semester, for the first time, I used the free tutoring service that we had. And uh I remember thinking, I'm just gonna embarrass myself because they're gonna try to teach me this and I'm not gonna know it. And I used the tutoring service, and because I was with people that were just grad assistants, I mean, what were they two or three years older than me? I felt comfortable and I remember going, This makes no sense to me. Here's why. And then when I was able to have time to express myself without feeling like I'm gonna look like I'm stupid, and to have that person come back and explain it to me, that that was that was a really big breakthrough, too. Was just I I finally took a chance to go make myself vulnerable and ask somebody, how do you do this without the fear of them going, man, you're a complete loss.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Got it. Yeah. It's just being being not concerned about what they're thinking per se, but more just, hey, here's what I need and here's why I need it.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

And I'm gonna keep asking questions and saying, I don't understand, understand, until that grad assistant or professor or teacher says or mentor says, Hey, I can't I've done all I can, I can't anymore. At that point, okay, I can walk away going, well, either that person was impatient or maybe I just can't pick it up.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

And I would guess that that probably never happened. That would be like the the fear of it. But the reality is you figured out how you learned, you asked questions, and you got where you needed to be.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

No, and again, it goes with emotional intelligence is if someone sees you're trying really hard and that you're willing to say, hey, I'm vulnerable, and um, you know, my fear is that you're gonna think I'm stupid or that you think that I can't learn, then that person I feel like then then is now rooting for you. Like they're they're they're in it with you, they're in that trenches with you, and they're trying to help be successful. And most people's heart is gonna be to do to try to help you out. So that's where, again, going back to the book, the Dell Carnegie book, I learned quickly that not being vulnerable and trying to be a know-it-all doesn't get people to want to be on your side, being arrogant, cocky. You want confidence, but people root for an underdog. People want to root and they want to be a part of that. People don't root for someone. It's kind of funny. Like, for example, I know early on that people always do the opposite of what you want. So if I told you right now, Subway's the best, you can in your mind think subway's the best sub shop in the country. And I'm like, Paul, Subway's the best subshop in the country, you're gonna be kind of like, you might be thinking it is, but you're like, I mean, yeah, it's good, but have you tried Jimmy John's? Have you tried this? Or if I say to you, Subway sucks, it's the worst place in the world, you could be like, well, I mean, it's not that bad. I mean, look how they've been successful. It's all right. And so when I learned early on that if you're vulnerable and you just tell people kind of, hey, here's what I'm here's what I'm not really afraid of, but here's what my concern is, here's my fear of wasting your time, yeah, most people are going to kind of root for you and try to pick you up.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

I I think you're spot on. And you know, the old saying is vulnerability begets vulnerability, right? Like if I'm vulnerable with you, you're more likely to be every one of us are vulnerable. It's just a matter of can we put that guard down and trust the other person? And I think you're right. Everyone wants to help. They're just nervous about it. And honestly, to be vulnerable with you for a moment, like that's why this podcast was started was boulder struggling. Um, you know, we're struggling to get by, we're having tough times, the revenue's not where it needs to be,

Vulnerability As A Superpower

SPEAKER_00 17:30

the economy's down, et cetera. So we're struggling. I'm like, how else do I reach out to people? Well, I need mentorship, so I use the podcast to learn, get motivated, but also to, you know, share about our business. And hopefully people hear and they want to help and they want to come visit the park, et cetera. So it's just a different avenue of marketing, really. Um, but I do try to be vulnerable on this podcast, and we don't have it all figured out, and we're still struggling. And we're a two-year-old business, we're a toddler. So we're still learning and still trying to, you know, pay the bills and you know, make the mortgage and all that stuff. It's uh we're still in. I'm gonna transition this a moment if I can. We're still in survival mode. And you talked earlier about you were in survival mode and all of that. So I want to kind of go down that path. But before we do, we do book reviews on this podcast from time to time. 30-second book reviews. Give us a 30-second book review on that book that you talked about, how to win people influence others. Give us a 30-second book review on it.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

It was a book that made me look in the mirror and ask myself, do I like who I am as a person? Do I treat others the way they should be treated? The biggest thing I got out of that book was the number one uh word in the English dictionary for a person is their name. And I realized how genuine Paul it is to make sure when I'm talking to someone that they know when you refer to someone, you use their name. Uh, when you're with them, you use their name. And then the biggest thing was, again, it goes back to the vulnerability is realizing that when you go left and say this is for sure the route you want to go, then people have a tendency to want to go, well, let's maybe consider right. And and what it becomes is going through with the world with people is a negotiation. And it's real being willing to listen to other people's mindset, whether they're right or wrong, and at least giving them the sincere uh appreciation for the fact that you listen to them. You may not agree with them, but you at least listen to them. Yeah. Um, and I think a lot of good can happen, and we call it care frontation. I don't know if you're familiar with with that, Paul, but I heard it at your meeting. Yeah. Give us an overview of it. So again, this is good. This comes from Stephen Bashotti, um, the owner of the Ravens, and and um uh we were big on confrontation where we held people accountable, and and what you try to teach people was is like, let's say, Paul, I didn't think you were working hard and you were supposed to be on the phone. I'm like, Paul, what's why's your phone, why's your phone not in your hand? You mean it it's not gonna pick itself up. Okay, I could do that, but if you know that I'm doing if you and I have had a side conversation where you've agreed that, hey, Phil, if you see me look like I'm not giving it my all, don't be afraid to give me a jab or two. And you would know if I was doing that, you're like, hey, you're not mad, and you're like, hey, screw that guy. What a jerk. You're sitting there thinking, okay, damn man, Phil's trying to help me. I don't mind the jab, you know, type thing. So it it's about it, it's being willing to criticize someone because you care about them, but they know you care. In other words, you can't just be like, well, you you couldn't come at me, Paul, and go, Phil, behind the scenes, why are you jabbing me in front of everybody? Why are you doing that? It's because I care. And you're like, Well, I didn't know you cared. Well, the only way you know I care is because I actually take an interest in going to get to know you and and actually say to you, hey, what are your vulnerabilities? What are your fears? Uh, what's holding you back? Why are your numbers down? So, so with our team, we have an agreement, and it starts with me as a leader, is is making it clear that hey, if I do something wrong, you have every right to say without any any ramifications to say to me, hey, Phil, I didn't like how you handled that because I want to know that because it's all about communication. If people understand where you're coming from and that you're trying hard to help them out, then then they're gonna be more open to the criticism.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

So we call it carefrontation, and and it comes comes back from that book. Wow. Uh Phil, thank you. I mean, you that is just so deep thought motivational. Uh it's I'm taking a minute just to even process it because that's why when I kicked this podcast off, like I led with how impressed I was with you. Keep in mind at that time, we'd only spent 48 hours together at most. Um, and everything you just described, I observed in your leadership, your personality in such a short period of time. So you're not just you don't just say it, you live it, you breathe it. And I I am just so thankful for you sharing those stories.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

Uh well, just to let you know, uh I've read that book a hundred times. Wow. And here's how that happens is uh it used to be a chapter a day or or a page a day. I mean, honestly, that's how, in other words, I read it once from start to finish, and was just I mean, some people think the book's kind of cheesy, but uh for me, clearly it goes back to the early 1900s, so there's some cheesy stuff in it. But boy, uh, you know, Steve Bashotti making me read that book uh and saying, hey, I mean, he you gotta realize instead of him paying me to learn the business, his first thing is, well, first of all, you need to read this book and then and then come see me. I would read a page, sometimes a chapter every day back from the time I was 24 until probably my mid-30s. Wow. Um, so that's why that's why I can say, you know, if you were combined, I've read it a hundred times. So it's I'm and a matter of fact, now I'm thinking about it, I I need to probably read it, get it, get it back open again because it's been uh probably 10 years since I've looked at it again. And every time I get motivated by it, it just helps you it helps reassure you of how to communicate with people in a way where you both get out of it what you want.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

I love it. I am downloading that book. I listen to books on audio. I will listen to it for the first time, and then obviously, like you said, multiple times, but I'm gonna start with it this weekend. I'm on a road trip with my son, we're going to a basketball tournament.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

That book is my you could tell how old I am because the first thought I thought was I need to start reading again instead of listening to it. Well, no, you can definitely read back. I'm gonna do the same thing. Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna I'll I'll text you, you text me, let's let's download it and I'm gonna listen to it. I'm on the treadmill and stuff. It's worth listening to for me. I mean, like 30, even just 30 seconds a day. There's so much good stuff out of it.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

Oh man, thank you, Phil. That's awesome. Let's keep things uh kind of going down your story. So I want to talk about, you know, you mentioned your mom was a single mom, you were in survival mode, even in college, you're in survival mode. You talked about when you first started your career. When did you feel like you went from survival mode to thriving? Like what when in your career do you feel like you were out of

From Stock Wins To Freedom Of Time

SPEAKER_00 23:50

survival and now you're thriving?

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Honestly, I don't I don't feel like I've ever gotten out of survival mode. Okay. The reason I say that is every day there's a new challenge. Um, for example, as soon as I think I've got it all together, uh, I have you know had children. And now now you're now you're you're surviving to just make them the best people they can be. And you know, this is gonna sound crazy, but when I first I had three, I have three daughters. Okay, and when I had them, I had them early in my 20s. And I remember thinking at a time, and here I was working out, never really eat well, well, as you know. You know, I like I eat like a little kid, but I still try to watch it. Taco Bell. Pardon? It's the Taco Bell. Yeah, yeah, right, right, right. You get, you know, the fries got me. But but yeah, uh, but for the most part, I was a very motivated, healthy person in my 20s. And I remember times when the kids would be crying at two in the morning and you have to get up with them. I'm sitting here thinking, I don't know how drug addicts who have kids do it. Like, how do you not find out on the news that there was a there was kids left at the house, you know, 10 kids left there, but you don't hear. I mean, somehow you that people do it. But my point is, I remember thinking that I was surviving to make it to work to with no sleep and raising these kids, and then and then, you know, you then you get your kids to a point where they're in high school, sports, and then college, and then now I've got two granddaughters. Um, and my point is, is I'm always in that mode where I'm trying to teach my kids, mentor my kids. I'm also trying to learn, just like with business, is I always get myself, as soon as I get something done, I'm in a different business or different industry. And it and it always feels like survival mode to me. And so when you talk about thriving, I don't know that I'll ever have that feeling of thriving. I don't know, I don't even know if I want it because it's not what I know. But I just feel like survival mode is is always challenging yourself. And what I learned back in '92 in that accounting situation, my back against the wall, that's a great feeling to come through. And I just don't want to, I don't want to uh ever forget that moment and slip into mediocrity or or um laziness.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

That's awesome. It's basically the point is don't let yourself get comfortable. Keep learning, keep growing. You know, growth comes through challenges and survival and all of that. And it's a little comforting. I mean, to be vulnerable. Like I mentioned, you know, Boulder's in a tough spot. You know, personally, I'm in a tough spot. So I'm very much in survival mode. And I've to the same point, I feel like I've been there my whole life. I guess my question to come back to that, to reframe it a little bit, because you're always learning, you're always growing. But just from a financial perspective, you've been very successful. When do you feel like what what elements of your career kind of set you on a different path financially? Was it uh you talked about you were selling supplements at one point, you've done real estate.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

It was when I was with my staffing firm, I was in early enough that I had some stock. And so by by the time I was probably 30, 31, I didn't realize the amount of uh stock I had earned. And so that was a moment when I when uh I realized I was like, oh wow, I've got uh I mean it's the first time I'd ever really had uh a decent amount of money. Yeah, and and that's when my mindset intersected with the fact that I have kids that now that I haven't been able to, you know, my oldest one was at the time was probably seven or eight, and I was missing some things, activities. And I thought, you know what, I could take this chunk of money and maybe put it into something else that gives me more freedom and more time. That way I can make my kids a priority. And that that was probably, yeah, my early 30s when when it was like, okay, this is uh if I'm smart with this chunk of money, I can I can you know have some freedom and and be able to see my kids do things that a lot of parents couldn't couldn't do.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

Okay, good. And you mentioned real estate. I know you've done real estate. Let's talk a little bit about real estate if we can.

SPEAKER_01 27:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

How are you? Are you I'm assuming you're still currently doing real estate. Um, what's kind of your main investment strategy, kind of how you work within the real estate side of your portfolio?

SPEAKER_01 27:49

Well, just to let you know, my real estate started when I was about late like 29 years old. Okay. I have no mechanical expertise. Like I said, I didn't have a father. I didn't I didn't learn stuff like that. Uh,

Real Estate Playbook: Flips To Storage

SPEAKER_01 28:00

and I don't want to learn it if you want to know the truth of the matter. Yep. Um, I'm not a fixer-upper kind of guy, but I went to a seminar, a three-day seminar, where I risked $5,000 to learn how to buy distressed properties, fix them up, and flip them. Okay. And I went there for three days, and again, I never would have done this in a million years. And my biggest concern was, are these guys legitimate? And I remember it was in Tampa, Florida. So I flew from Indy to Tampa, Florida. Five grand that I was nervous wrecked to do because at that time I was still hadn't gotten my stock, but but yeah. I'm like, it was a pretty good chunk of money. And I and and I wouldn't have ever done it if it wasn't for the fact that I was like, yep, I'll figure this out. If they teach, if they really teach me what they're saying, if they teach me what they're saying, I'm like, because I've done this before, I'll figure it out. So I go to it, couldn't have been a better seminar. Ron Legrand's his name. He still teaches stuff, but Ron Legrand, uh great guy, and I learned a ton from his seminar and came back home and was like, okay, I'm gonna buy a house, fix it up, and sell it. And there's a whole lot that goes into that. Okay, first three days. Getting a deal, having the money, that type of thing. And so I did one, and then I'm like, well, if I can do one, I can do two. And then by the second year, I did 12. Uh, and then it just kept in 19 or uh not 19, sound really old. Uh 200 uh six, um, I bought and flipped 71 homes. Wow. So then what changed was the 0809 financial crisis made it hard for me to flip homes to people because I was flipping homes, people had a little banged up credit. Okay. So then I moved into the rental mode um of doing rentals and uh then moved into apartments. And what happened was if I could go back in time, the reason I started with just real estate in a in a home is because that just seemed doable. That that seemed that didn't seem too big to me. And then I remember when I did an uh apartment complex, it was a uh $20 million project. Complex and I did that in 2015. That was no different than doing a $200,000 apartment complex. Really? Yeah. I mean, I remember thinking, oh boy, where am I getting myself the same? The numbers were just bigger. The process was the same. Got it. And so once I learned the process and stuff, so then I was always wanting to do self-storage. Okay. And the reason I like self-storage is because you know people sign a just a 30-day lease. So usually with apartments and stuff, you you got people signing anywhere from 12 months, maybe 36 months. Well, the average person in a self-storage unit stays for three years. And when you have the ability to potentially keep the market rents going up, because you can go to your whole, say it's a hundred unit self-storage, you know, I give them a 60 days notice and I can raise the rents. I know I can raise those rents to a certain point where maybe 20% of the people say this is too expensive, move out. That's fine. Because you'll you'll you'll still feel that if you've done some market analysis. But when I realized how easy it was to manage self-storage facilities, and if you if market rents are going up, how you don't have to wait years to catch up to it. Yeah. And you don't have people coming and going. Right. I'm like, so so I moved into that world um a few years ago where we really just focus on self-storage facilities. And I really have gotten away from the apartment stuff. I still do every once in a while I buy home, I'll buy some homes and fix them up and either rent them or flip them. But we've kind of backed away from that a little bit. But yeah, my my real estate career just started at very elementary. And then as I just started getting confidence and understanding the process of these different things, you know, nothing, nothing intimidates me now. No matter how big it is, how size. My biggest, my biggest problem is I get spoiled because when I when I buy something, I I want to see the value of it double within a year to 18 months. Wow. Um, so we focus on things like that that we see a lot of upside in that maybe people don't see. And I'll give you an example is uh with like self-storage facilities, is we we partner with U-Haul. And so they can be a great revenue source because they're only taking a few parking spots. It's not like you have all your self-storage people there on one day. As a matter of fact, some days you don't have anybody show up. So you've got you've got parking spots for this stuff, and so that's a really great extra revenue generator that when I'm looking at buying self-storage facilities, I know in the back of my head this is probably going to qualify for U-Haul. So there's instant revenue that the current owner doesn't have. Um, and and then the other thing is just like billboards, um, trying to find out is this are we in a spot where we would be able to get permitted to put a billboard up and and and get some easy advertising money. So that's become something that's been it's fun for me because I because I see how the process is so much smoother and easier and less to manage than what I've done in the past.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

So that's motivating for me.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

That was a masterclass in like just different strategies of how to see opportunity and create opportunity. I mean, I'm I'm seeing exactly what you're saying of hey, there's a storage facility that may be up for sale or whatever it is that maybe just hasn't maximized its opportunity. Well, through your experience and your knowledge, you can assess that. You can, you know, obviously value it in your own terms. Assume you can buy it at X, you can value it at Y based on those improvements. And all of a sudden you've got a billboard up there generating revenue. You've got U-Haul in there. I'm sure you'd fix things up and can get a little bit better rent on the storage if if there was opportunity there. And like you said, double your money in a very short period of time based on your collective expertise and experience. I mean, that was an awesome example that you just walked us through. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

Yeah, that hey, we're all in this together. I'm transparent, whatever, whatever I can help and teach. I I just again, I'm a normal average person, and you know, it's a cliche that if you can do it, anybody can do it type thing. But it's action. It's just not being afraid of the process. And if the process has a hurdle in it, go ask somebody how bad do you want it? And I again, it this is a lot of cliche stuff, but anytime I see someone not being being able to get what they want, uh, it's usually because they haven't uh asked enough questions and made themselves vulnerable enough.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

There you go. I love it. And action is the key. I mean, I saw a quote recently from Grant Cordone that said something about the only people that really fail are the ones that quit trying. And it's, you know, yeah, you're gonna get knocked down, yeah, you're gonna fail at times, but you've got to keep taking action and keep stepping up and trying again.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

Yeah, and there's a fine line. So, I mean, you know, if someone can stick with something so long that maybe for whatever reason has its obstacles, and it's a tricky situation sometimes and knowing when to quit. I think a person knows deep down if they've given it their all and if they've really done everything they can versus versus hey, I you know, had one obstacle and that's all it took for me to just be like, oh, this ain't gonna work. It's just like with someone with with homes, is it's always funny when when they say, Well, I couldn't get a loan or I couldn't find the money. So this doesn't work. Well, my my my analysis to this would be, okay, if I walked into your in your studio right now, and let's say I don't know, say there's 30 people there, and I had a $100 bill, and you all got to look at it, and you you knew it was certified for real $100 bill. All right. And I said, I need change for this. What's the most, what's the most, I don't care what change it is, I just need to change it. What's the most someone will give me? Because your belief is that it's truly worth $100, you might you might say, I'll give you $40. Someone might say $60, someone might say $80. But let's say, so let's say in that room, I'm desperate for change, and someone says, All I have is three twenties. All right, I'll do it. Boom. Well, they gave me the 20s, they got the 100, they made 40 bucks, no problem. Well, my whole thing is is just the same with the house. If you know the house is worth $100,000, okay, and you're able to pick it up for $60, there's someone out there that you can go to that's gonna have the money to help you do this. It's just depending on how confident they are in you, how confident they are in the house, and that's all up to you. Like making sure you're giving them all the facts to help them make an educated decision. And so I've always looked at it when someone says I can't find the money, then I said, Well, the deal must not be very good. And then what you find out is if the deal was very good, then well, how many people have you been vulnerable enough to go to and present it to? Well, no one. All right, sent a text or email to someone and let me see it. It's it's it's just kind of real shy and sheepish. Like, I think I found a decent deal that I think might be okay. The word think. I hate I hate hearing words try and think. Those are those are just indecisive words that people don't really wrap around. And so, yeah, my my point would be in the real estate world is really making sure that, well, I think it's created the most millionaires ever. Um and so when people people look at getting into it, it it's really uh interesting to me where you can really see someone's character on how fast they jump out of it. And it's it's disappointing, but that person's probably needs to go get an eight to five job and and unfortunately uh you know get paid that way.

SPEAKER_00 36:59

There you go. All right, so sticking with the real estate, if I give me advice, it's just like you do with the storage units where you kind of just talked us through at a high level different strategies. If I want to get into buying distressed properties, fixing them up, flipping them, how much capital realistically in today's environment with interest rates, et cetera, to start with one home, what advice would you give somebody?

SPEAKER_01 37:24

When when you have people that are in California, they're like, oh, these are this, everyone has an excuse every every place they're at. And in all fairness, yeah, I know there's certain areas that are a lot more expensive. You're in Texas, Grand Prix, yeah. So Texas is a really good state for this. Yeah. Um, but uh ultimately nowadays with AI and all the stuff there is, it's you know, I used to knock on doors. I'd see I would send letters to vacant homes, I would knock on doors, I'd go to the uh city-county building and look up who was behind on taxes, stuff like that. I mean, I it was old school. Now it there's a lot of things you can do with Zillow and all that, where people talk about seller financing, different things like that. You got your Airbs you can do. But the biggest thing I would say to get started is find a mentor. Um, like I did with the, you know, even though Ron Legrand wouldn't know me from uh from Adam, you know, his seminar, his books, everything he ever ever showed worked. I just it was really good stuff. So I would say, you know, first of all, find find a uh source. Uh and if it costs some money, that's an investment into it. Now it's so I think it's pretty easy these days to really find out who's the real deal and who isn't. Yeah. And I would say invest invest in that education and then kind of find what uh niche in real estate you want to be in. Yep. But but just like right now, you could get on realtor.com or whatever and and look up homes, and you could probably find out in the area you live in. If you see a home pop up that seems like it's severely undervalued, then then the next thing is okay, how do I rent up the money or can I get financing? Whatnot. But

Finding Money And Making Deals

SPEAKER_01 39:00

again, if a deal is good enough, there's people out there that that want that are gonna give you the money. Yeah, that's awesome. Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

All right, Phil, we're coming up on time. Let's uh transition to the last part of the conversation. I want to hear more about Project Marnark, which is how I met you, what you're working on, kind of the status for what you're able to share, obviously. Give us an update a little bit more in detail than what you did earlier about earlier. You explained what it is, but now kind of give us an update on kind of where you're at and how things are coming.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

Yeah, well, thanks. I appreciate that, Paul. We started off as just being a four or five acre lake with uh sandy white beaches around it and uh in the middle of Indiana, and uh provide an experience uh in suburbia that most people would never get uh without going two or three hours. And that is basically um a lake that is uh got its own biome, no no chemicals or anything in it, as you know. Uh a water slide system that's built in the in in the water um that has challenge stages and different ways to jump off 10 feet and 20 feet to where uh 10, 20 people can be on one one part of the um one of the water slides, if you will, yeah, jumping off all different angles. Um but again, it comes back to where uh mom and dad and grandma and grandpa can be floating in the water and watching you come down into them. They can even get up there. You see kids helping their parents get up on these slides and stuff, so that's fun. And it started out as that uh on about a 20-acre parcel. Um, and then as I met great people, as you know, Ron Romans from CRS, as I started meeting people that were very interested in in finding uh theme park attractions that didn't have lines and that got a lot of people through with still having the same fun, adrenaline, fun experience as you have at your facility. You have a lot of stuff like that. I I became kind of obsessed with okay, what else can we have out there? So we've evolved from a six-acre lake with a sandy white bohemian sand all around it with water slides in the middle of it, to now we have a sledding hill that's similar to your indoor facility. Yep. Um, we have an all-season uh sledding hill, thanks to you. You kind of gave us a lot of advice on that. Um, to where uh we now have a ropes course, a putt-putt course, a venue for corporate events, uh team activities. What I love about those attractions is the fact that it's a low labor cost. So everything we did helps a lot of people have a lot of fun at one time without being in any lines. It has a high safety, and it requires very few people to have to really watch watch up to people. So you don't have people feeling like at a pool where you have lifeguards where you're getting a whistle blowing at you. You know, this is really an area where we're so sure how safe it is that you can pretty much, whatever your imagination leads you, you can do. So it gives people a lot more freedom and not feeling like they're in this rule-based area, which we feel like we're at, we're in all the time, especially coming out of COVID over the years, you know, everything was so strict. So, so our our theme park is really based on people creating their own experience by using their imagination and just taking the park by storm and not having only having people there to help you experience a better time versus being a real follower and uh being told how to experience it versus just going out yourself. So, yeah, it's on a 75. Now it's 75 acres, uh, and uh we're expecting anywhere uh from 5,000 to 7,000 people on any given Saturday. Um and we'll we'll break ground June 1st and open uh May 18th of 2026 in uh Sheridan, Indiana.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

That's awesome. Congrats on the on the progress, obviously, how things are going. I love hearing the stories and look forward to you know continuing staying in contact for sure. I think uh the hope is we can work together when y'all get to the phase of indoor entertainment there, and um, I'm looking forward to getting to that point as well.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

As I say that, it's kind of funny because it I just made it sound like the line of success was just like this.

unknown 42:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:54

I'm like, I'm like, the line of success was like this. Yeah. I mean, you you you know, it's been four years, and and quite honestly, it's you know, I again someone with experience in doing this type of thing um could have done this in two years. It's been four years because uh again, I I'm not the I don't have the highest IQ, but I just stayed with it and I've surrounded my pit myself with some amazing people that have high IQ and uh like Ron Romans. Um, and they've all, as I've uh had people brought to me, I've learned how to make this theme park where it's it's gonna be something where people come all over for to experience because again, they can create their own experience without rules and lines. So, but as I was saying that, I'm like, I just made that sound like that was that easy, and I'm sitting there thinking, wow, no, the line, the line of success is not is not your straight arrow. It's it's as you know, it's there's a lot of down, up, down, up, down, up. So I just want to make that clear.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

As I know for sure, because Boulder was built, uh, we opened five years almost to the day from the first idea. And it does, it takes significant amount of time. There's ups, there's down, there's challenges. I mean, just finding the land took me two years. I know it took y'all some time as well.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

So there found land.

SPEAKER_00 44:09

Oh, nope. Found land. Same exact thing here.

SPEAKER_01 44:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:13

Same exact thing here. So um, yeah, maybe we we have a uh an episode one time. I'd love to bring back Phil at some point in the future for sure to continue the conversations. But I think that's the reality is success looks like people just see the end and they think it was a straight line, but in reality, there's always dips and valleys and U-turns and challenges, and and that's what adds that um, you know, come back to the beginning, that survival feeling. You've got to be able to just grind through it, love the grind, work through it, and find a way, you know, tying it back to the city.

SPEAKER_01 44:47

I think sometimes people are afraid to say how hard something was to get to that final thing. And and honestly, that's what you got to do is because I think that gives people even more motivation to go, oh wow. So, you know, not not everything just falls into place for people. Some things it does, but for most it doesn't. That's right. By the way, uh, I follow you on TikTok and I love all the the videos. I love the how old am I and selfie for a pizza. I mean, if I I just feel like if I was there locally, that I would if I wasn't in a good mood, I can go there and I'm gonna be put in a good mood. And to have you as an owner operator there, I mean, I can tell you how you're passionate to have everyone have a great time. I I definitely think that that anyone around that area, I mean, there's got to go there and try it. I mean, that place just every always looks so much fun. And then it looks like you and your staff were just really there to make sure everyone experiences a great time. So I want to see you experiencing that success sooner or later because again, you care so much that you know the people will come.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

Thank you, Phil. That that was deep. That that really means a lot more than you know. So thank you.

Project Monarch: Vision And Timeline

SPEAKER_00 45:50

Absolutely. We've reached a perfect time for us to to put a bow on this. Phil, that was a phenomenal episode. Like I'm super excited to uh you know put that together, share it with the world, and you know, hopefully have you back in the future as well. Well, Phil, again, thank you for joining. Your time is precious, and you spent it with us, and we're just grateful for all the insights you gave us. And um, I look forward to staying in contact with you.

SPEAKER_01 46:13

Yeah, happy to help. Uh I think of the world that we still man. Let me know. I will. Thank you.