Owen King: How a Family Law Firm Turned AI into a Digital Team Member

What does real progress look like when a law firm embraces AI without losing its human centre?

We sit down with Owen King, Group Operations Director at April King Legal, to trace a family firm’s journey from dining-room floppy disks to a national private client practice that runs on clarity, empathy and smart systems.

Owen shares how the team navigated post-COVID expectations, made video-first appointments feel personal, and built specialist capacity in tax and probate while keeping advice simple and outcomes transparent.

We also dig into the bigger questions shaping legal tech: why specialism beats hype, what data security really means for client trust, and how pricing models and onboarding can make or break adoption. Owen explains where AI could go next in private client work, especially where complex calculations and document-heavy workflows can benefit from targeted automation with human oversight.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Intro 0:04

Hello and welcome to the Garfield Podcast, a series of conversations with the people who are working with AI to improve access to justice. In this episode, Garfield founder and CEO Philip Young talks to Owen King, Group Operations Director at April King Legal, about how AI is impacting the legal industry, Owen's experience with different AI tools, and how AI has become a valuable time saver for April King.

Philip 0:35

Welcome to the latest of Garfield's podcasts. And on this podcast, we are honoured to be in the company of Owen King, who is the group operations director of a business called April King. And I won't say at this point exactly what the business does because that would steal Owen's thunder. We'll come to that topic a bit later. But let me first of all begin by handing over to Owen. And Owen, would you like to sort of introduce yourself to the audience and talk about who you are, your business journey, those sorts of things?

April King’s Origins And Focus

Owen 1:06

So April King is a family-run firm. It was set up by uh my father Paul King back in 1991, which uh believe it or not is before I was born, even with the sort of grey hairs that I've got going through. So we've just actually this month, October 25, we've just hit 34 years uh in business. So that's really exciting. And so my role I joined in 2017, so um just over eight years ago. I started in a very uh junior position, so um I was booking appointments, dealing with just direct client inquiries, which was good. I I I found the interaction with the public very rewarding. So I like to solve problems, so that's that's my my job now, but it's just sort of evolved, if you like. So if a client came to us with a problem, it was you know my job to sort of point them in the right direction. Now I do that just on a sort of bit of a grander scale without blowing my own trumpet. So all the the cogs of the business, whether that's client-facing or not, to make sure the our clients receive the best possible experience. And we're specialists in in private clients, specifically Wills, uh, estate planning and probate. So they're our our key areas which have remained sort of more or less unchanged since our founding. As the law adapts with any business you have to adapt. So we've recently brought it on a tax department that'll be coming live in the next couple of weeks. And then we also work with uh barristers for more sort of complex issues um or tax planning matters. Uh then we have a large bank of experts at our fingertips. But uh, when it comes to our core services, proactive uh and protective estate planning is is really what we specialise in and is our our bread and butter for the past uh uh three decades.

Philip 2:55

So that's really interesting, and we'll we'll we'll delve into the practice a little bit more in a moment.

Operations, Service Quality And Tech Adoption

Philip 3:00

I thought I was I'd like to ask, um, I've always slightly jokingly said the two hardest jobs in a law firm are one, the managing partner, and two the the COO slash the group operations person. And so you've got one of the the two hardest jobs. Do you find it's um is always interesting sort of um making sure that all the cogs keep turning and all the the legal professionals' demands in terms of how they want to deliver services are met?

Owen 3:25

Yeah, because I often get asked this, but you know, relatives, family, what is it you actually do? It's very hard to sort of um say, well, a bit of everything, but that what it comes down to just making sure we're always delivering the best service. And now that is a goal that is always evolving. So you you can't you don't just reach you know one day and then say, Oh, that's it, we're we're now our service is excellent, we can just sort of carry on and you know and just tread water. It's all we're always looking at how we can improve things, whether that's the advice that we give, so we're always ahead of you know the case law or judgments, anything like that, but also use of technology. And uh since COVID, you know, we've embraced technology a lot more, much like most firms. Um, majority of our appointments are now by video, and along with tools like Garfield as well, which you know we'll speak a bit more uh in detail. But yeah, it's it's a goal that you know will will never be, I can never say is fully completed, but my job is to make sure what tools there are available on the market, you know, are they suitable for us, and then what can they do? Ultimately, the question we asked ourselves is does this improve the customer journey, you know, the satisfaction or the service they receive? And if it doesn't, then it's not really uh of relevance to us. Uh uh our primary goal and my goal is to always ensure our team had the tools to to give that advice to clients, but with as with as little hurdle as possible.

Philip 4:48

I and I think this is a really interesting thing, certainly over the last 25 years when I was in practice, because when I started, and and I'm sorry to say I started in the 90s, so I'm I'm the dinosaur here, um, law firms would tended to be quite sleepy, even even you know, medium-sized and big ones tended to be quite sleepy, and um they operated the same way they'd always operated. And and an innovation was owning a photocopy, or God forbid, changing the typewriters into word processors. But it feels nowadays that law is a lot more dynamic, and with people like yourself involved in running a law firm, you know, l law firms are a lot more sort of forward-thinking and always looking for for improvements they can make.

Owen 5:28

I think it you could say this for for any industry, but law specifically, I mean, if you're not growing, you're you're you're dying. I think that's that's that's what it comes down to. You've got to keep evolving with the times. And and law is notorious, so I think law firms, I think, in particular, are just quite notorious in not embracing change. And that has been the case for many years. And and you know, there is some skepticism about certain aspects of AI, but we'll we'll come on to that a little bit later. But you have to evolve with the times, otherwise you you'll you'll simply be left out, I think. I mean, in our area of work, for example, inheritance tax has now suddenly become you know a burning topic on every news channel and on every um you know social media platform there is. So, you know, we've had to adapt to um uh you know, basically to have a tax department that that we can refer um those slightly higher net worth individuals to. So, you know, you've got to constantly evolve, whether that's advice or tools, I think, to to stay ahead and and to keep relevant to your clients. I think that's the most important thing. Uh AI and and technologies is just is one of those uh you know that that helps us achieve

COVID’s Push Toward Modern Legal Practice

Owen 6:36

that.

Philip 6:36

I don't know if you agree with this, Owen, but my perception has been that if anything, the speed of evolution and the speed of adoption of new technologies has accelerated since COVID. And I think COVID had a big effect on the profession because we always spoke for years about paperless offices and and having video conference meetings, but what really tipped the profession over the edge of doing it seriously, I found, was COVID. And I I feel that AI is having the same impact but in a different way. Firms are beginning to sort of seize opportunities that new AI tools are giving them and saying, this is helpful, that's not. Let's sort of try and use these things to help us as well. Is that is that your perception too?

Owen 7:14

As horrible as the pandemic was for you know the world, what came out of it was it it gave the kick in the legal industry it needed, I think, in many aspects. I think a lot of firms prior to COVID didn't have any contingency plans in, not necessarily specific to a pandemic, but I don't think our own government had nothing. But um, but from a from a business perspective, you've got to be able to pivot no matter what. So if you've not got the technology or the resource or the capability to to switch to something very quickly, I mean we're fortunate in that because we're a compact family business, we we don't have a board of directors, we don't need to answer justify every decision. So when COVID hit, we very quickly switched to video appointments, which we did offer, but they were sort of few and far between before COVID. And then from there it it's just been progressive. So we like I say we still have several sort of key regional offices, but we can cover the entire England and Wales, mostly from our head office with our solicitors and advisors here. But COVID definitely accelerated it, and I think it that's forced law firms to look at well, actually, if this happens again, are we ready and and what tools are there? Because a lot of this stuff was already in existence, it's just people weren't using it. So, you know, no I I don't know the Zoom before before COVID and now you know it's now a household name. So I I think it has been the kicker for the legal industry to say, actually, look, technology's moving on and and so do you.

Philip 8:42

Yeah, I I

Client Expectations, Efficiency And Quality

Philip 8:43

agree. I mean, I certainly from a contentious world perspective, what really helped was that the court was also forced to accept things like electronic bundles and remote hearings. And then once the judiciary brought in, of course, then the profession had no excuse and sort of embraced it willingly, um, which was really interesting to see that all sort of shift almost overnight. And yeah, I mean, I think your point is extremely good about the fact that it's all driven ultimately by what clients expect, which is that they expect the service that they want and they expect lawyers to try and find efficiencies, which I mean, no disrespect to my profession, you know. Historically, lawyers have not always been that's not always been the high highlight of their mind, you know, thinking we can do these things more efficiently. They've been more thinking about how can we do things really well. And sometimes quality and efficiency aren't quite the same things, although they should be correlated quite closely.

Owen 9:34

No, 100% agree. I think if you run an efficient business, that gives your lawyers more time to help clients. I mean, that's ultimately what we do is we we help, you know, individuals and families plan for the future. That is as a business what we do. In every area, if we can be efficient um, you know, across the board, uh Garfield helping us in in a specific area, but you've got to be efficient, otherwise you're one and you're doing a detriment to your clients, I think. Um, you know, you're not going to get stuff done as quick as you can. And if there's simple administrative tasks holding you back from you know helping even more people, then where those can be streamlined is it ultimately ends with the client journey. Um again, more time um means we can help we can spend more time with clients, we can help more clients. Uh, and it I think you know, in that sense, it's a self-perpetuating thing, I think.

National Growth And Specialist Private Client Work

Philip 10:26

So, another topic I'd like to talk about is talk about your business in a bit more detail because I think it's a really interesting business. Um, as I understand it, it's national, um, it's got some particular specialisms, and you as a business, you've really embraced new technology in a really forward-thinking way. So um maybe if if you could just sort of um expand a bit upon how the business started, how it's grown, you know, all the sort of things that you that you're focused on and you're proud of.

Owen 10:54

So April was uh originally stood for the Association of Practicing Independent Lawyers, which is a bit of a mouthful given. Um but essentially we operated in a in a chambers type model. Uh advisors come from various different backgrounds, so some are regulated by the SRA, some are regulated by Silex, some are regulated by STEP. But uh going back through the years, it was obviously founded by by Paul and Sarah, which are my parents, and and that was around a dining room table with floppy disks, which I mean I can't remember off the top of my head, you must have been able to turn and get maybe 10 or 20 client records per floppy disk. So back in those days, we were we were still going through quite a few at a time, but over the years, so we evolved to to become a national presence uh mostly through national press. So that was a a big channel for us marketing-wise. And ever since uh Abra King was founded, it uh our core slogan, if you like, is your legacy, our leadership. So a lot of clients come to us, we ask them, you know, what are your priorities? What is it you aim to achieve? A lot of the time that is, well, I want to do the best for my children. I want to make sure they're looked after, and and what I leave them is as protected um, you know, as much as possible, legitimately, uh, and if if you know, in a way that they can both receive their inheritance but also keep it shielded from third-party claims. Yes. And that's and and that's where advice has actually really grown, I suppose, over the decades, is that you know, when we first started out, families are a lot simpler. Um now, you know, you you get the combination of blended families, mixed families, stepchildren, and and there's this grey area where then clients come to us and you know they've been to a uh you know a their their sort of go-to solicitor, if you like, that may have helped them, you know, move house or something. And and this isn't to sort of slide off any sort of solicitors in in general, but with our speciality being wills and proactive planning, is that we can offer advice that most firms just aren't capable of or simply don't understand that that is available. And that and that mission hasn't changed since. So you know the tools we use to deliver those services has certainly changed and improved. We're an ever-growing and ever-evolving law firm that that deals with modern problems, I think. I think that's the uh the the uh the best way I can sum it up.

Philip 13:18

I think that's also something that's consistent as well in my time in practice that lawyers have become increasingly specialized and the days of sort of the generalist have gradually receded. And I think as well, a lot of people that use legal services have also become more sophisticated in knowing what to look for and who to ask for and to look for specialists. So in the 90s, when I was young, I I did some work experience at various law firms in Sheffield and Manchester, the two cities near where I grew up. And um, there's still a lot of generalist practitioners who would do contentious work and transactional work all in the same or all in the same department, and I think that's largely gone. And I think that reflects, in a sense, the fact that the business world and and just the the your human life has become more complicated and more specialist in many ways, you

The Shift To Specialism In Law

Philip 14:06

know? Certainly let's let's move on a bit and talk a bit about AI. And um I was wondering, I mean, obviously, we've we'll talk a bit about Garfield separately than this, but um, do you have any perspectives on AI or thoughts or views? Have you used any other AI tools other than Garfield? And where where do you see that all going? It's probably a good testimonial for you, Philip.

Owen 14:29

The Garfield is actually the the first proper AI tool we've implemented into the business. Oh right. Um, in terms of an actual workflow. Uh Garfield now forms part of our accounts workflow, uh, which is the first AI tool used in that capacity.

AI In Law: General Vs Specialist Tools

Owen 14:46

We may uh may use chat GPs to help improve our email slightly, that sort of thing. Um but it if from an actual core business perspective, Garfield has been being the first AI tool we've used. Uh and I mean that's that's for various reasons we'll we'll probably get into in a bit more detail. But I think going back to specialism, I think that applies with AI. I think to have a singular opinion on AI is too broad of a subject. Garfield is a particularly good case for this, is that it's a specifically trained tool for a specific purpose. For us, Garfield was a great fit, which we'll go into a bit more. But I think I think it certainly will have a place in law, and it will that will increase, I think, over the years. But I think for us, again, we we deal with it on a on a case-by-case basis. So we looked into Garfield, obviously it came up uh on the news as the the first AR-regulated law firm, and you know, I was across that immediately. Um so anything like that that that jumps out, and being an SRA regulated firm as well, there's so many pros to that. There's still uh quite a lot of data concerns with AI in general, I think. So for your general chatbots and things like that, is actually where are those firms based? Where's you know the if it's handling client data or it's linked to your CRM, that's a lot of sensitive data. So, you know, is your AI tool, you know, where is that data held? Is it held in the UK and Europe or is it elsewhere? Who has access to that? I think these are all important no matter what industry you're in, but I think obviously law, especially with some of the matters that we deal with. So I think it's got a long way to go before it's a day-to-day go-to. But I I think we're seeing, especially like with Garfield, where it's specifically trained models, I think will become more and more popular, I think, with different aspects, whether that's claims or uh you know personal injury or something like that. I think we we will see specific AI employees, if you like.

Philip 16:44

Yeah, and I I I do tend to agree. I mean, I I think there's sort of two trends going on. There's a sort of generic-y trend where either it's very generic because it's just um I say just, they're very sophisticated, it's a chat bot like ChatGPT or Anthropo Explored, or in the legal domain, there's sort of products that are quite generalist, like what Harvey sell and Lagore and people like that. That's one sort of big collective area. And the other collective area is I think highly specific, sort of laser-focused products, which is more the sort of the Garfields of this world where someone is set out to do one thing and try and do it really well using LLM technology. At the moment, the two things are quite distinct, and it might be in time we start to see sort of a bit of a blurring of the boundaries a bit. But yeah, it's really interesting actually seeing what people are building out there and listening to what businesses are using or trialling. So, from the law firm world, I mean what I've seen, I don't know if you've seen this too, is that some law firms are just buying in services and some law firms are building their own. And I think that is obviously a much bigger law firm city sort of law firm thing because you need a lot of resources and you also need to be, I think, confident that the capital investment's going to result in a good return. When I was building Garfield, I was thinking a lot about high street law firms because that's why I started when I was a youngster um in going to Sheffield and Manchester. And I just knew that they wouldn't have the resources or time to start building tools. And I thought, well, people got to build tools for them and help them out, give them something they can use.

Owen 18:16

Well, yeah, and that's exactly what I found with

Implementing Garfield In Accounts Workflow

Owen 18:19

Garfield. So I mean, we were onboarded, I think, within 24 hours, I think, something like that. I mean, it was super quick. You don't need any prior knowledge of the claims processes or anything like that, and it's as as simple as dragging in an invoice, which you know, to us we we have a relatively small accounts team, so overdue invoices, lucky for us, are are very few and far between. But obviously, it's a percentage game. So, you know, we deal with thousands of clients each year, but the majority of the time they're simply forgotten. Um, and we actually use Garfield um for just the polite reminders more than anything else, and I've found those incredibly effective. Your CRM can do template letters. The good thing with with Garfield is that obviously it will recognize analyse the invoice and then pull through the invoice details, which depending on how your CRM structured, those two are often separate systems. So your accounts are going to be separate from your sort of case management system. Whereas this you can drag and drop the invoice, and we have a polite chaser in 30 seconds, if that, rather than you know, having to pull out the invoice details manually and spend 15-20 minutes just to write a polite chaser, it saved us a an enormous amount of time. So it's been incredibly effective in our business. And obviously, it's a within England and Wales, it's a very set protocol, so where it's through small claims. We don't need to then train additional staff that are fully with it with the sort of pre-action protocol uh just for a couple of cases maybe a month. What we can do is when those couple of cases come up, we can then put those to Garfield, and then that will guide us through the rest of the journey for that particular case.

Philip 19:58

It's really kind of you to say that. And actually, when people say that to me, it makes me think that I've spent the last two and a half years profitably and usefully. Because you always, when you start a project like this, you always worry that you might be building something that actually no one actually wants to use. They just prefer to do things their own way. And I did wonder if I was building something that would only actually help my brother-in-law Andy and no one else. And it's really heartwarming when people say, hey, this has actually saved us time and saved us money.

Owen 20:22

It generally feels like a helping hand, so you being SRA regulated, so all information is held securely and you're regulated by the solicitor's regulatory authority, which is obviously good. You know, we don't want our clients' details going you know anywhere that's not secure, so that's good from our perspective, but it also means compliance and fairness. So prior to Garfield, it it was an extremely not just for polite reminders, but for any escalation letters, that was a very time-consuming process. We'd would have to instruct uh you know another firm to do that. That could be a varying cost, but certainly you know, you'd be looking at anywhere between £50 to £150 plus VAT for an escalation letter, I think's uh about the range. And by doing it through Garfield, uh, you know, if it does get to that stage, which again is is luckily for us is is very seldom,

Transparency, Interest Calculations And Fairness

Owen 21:10

but uh it means we can keep that cost off the client as well. So what we've done with Garfield is we don't actually need so if we if we need to escalate it through Garfield, could unless it's a you know a particularly large matter, we don't need to then bill the client for any of those fees up to that point because it Garfield pays for itself. The time and money it's saved and it's it's fixed fees, uh like I say, means it's a fairer uh outcome to the client. Majority time they they simply just forget and need a reminder. But even when it comes down to interest calculations, it it's super transparent. And I say clients actually appreciate it. The the um the you know the the times we have used it, and um a lot of the times that that'll be safe for polite reminders. They're very grateful for the reminder, and that it's paid, I say normally within 24 hours. So it's been really rewarding for us, and and clients have found it obviously useful as well. So it's it's a win-winner on all fronts, really. Saves money and time for the client and ourselves, uh, and also keeps you know everything secure and allows the rest of the team to get on with helping clients with more complex things.

Philip 22:12

It's interesting you mentioned the the benefit to debtors because that's something that my team have been quite keen on because they've taken the view that anything that helps to help debtors understand A, that they owe money and B, how much they owe and why, is a positive for the debtors as well, because it cuts down the possibility for misunderstandings leading to disputes. Uh, and certainly from my personal perspective, one of the things I've been um in a this is strange for a lawyer, but I've been most pleased with the mathematics because when I was in practice, when I was doing um a debt claim and I had to do all the interest calculations, that was not the most exciting part of my job at all. And um I get out XL and I'd have to do, I'd have to do each invoice in turn and do the interest. And there were so many edge cases, you know. Did was it uh was a contract providing for compounding interest or simple? Was it a rate above base or rate above LIBOR? Has there been part payments on any invoice? But then you'd have to recalculate interest with a part payment take into account. And it was all very time consuming. And one of the things when we're building Garfield, we've got a mathematician on the team, a guy called James. And having a mathematician on your team is incredibly helpful when it comes to building the code to do the interest calculations. And so now, whenever I look at Garfield and I see the interest calculations done all automatically, and Garfield's worked out which of the three legal jurisprudential bases in English law apply, I feel a sort of warm glow internally that I would never have to do that work again in my life.

Owen 23:39

But it's one of those things, again, that is once once trained and once incorporated into the model, doesn't you know necessarily need to change. So, I mean, I've I you know I I use Garfield, I check in and out on it uh on a regular basis, and the interest calculations, for example, that would like you say would take normally a significant uh amount of time, even even on a simple invoice, for example. But you know, with with Garfield, you can drag and drop it and it and it's calculated more or less instantly. Um, but in a very clear breakdown that that I've as I mentioned, clients can understand and is fairer to them. Like I say, so we don't need to charge you know that the extra fees that we've incurred by instructing another solicitor. So we're all about transparency and fairness. Uh, and Garfield has allowed us to one reduce our uh sort of legal costs on you know any overdue invoices, but also made it easier for clients to understand, like you say, and I think that's super important and to help maintain that that positive relationship as well.

Philip 24:35

Do you think

Beyond Collections: Future AI In Probate And HR

Philip 24:36

as other business processes have AI-enabled tools? So Garford is obviously an AI um powered tool that helps you recover debts, but there'll be other AI tools maybe that come into human resources and maybe property-related work and things, you know, maintenance of properties and all that sort of stuff. Do you think that businesses are going to try and um to seize those, to use those in the same way that you have been using Garford?

Owen 25:01

I certainly think that is will be the way forward in terms of almost like an AI employee or an AI department that is specifically trained. But again, I think a lot of it goes down to you actually have to look at the specifics. A lot of AI in general will we'll promise the world on on the home page, get you into a you know £80 a month subscription for 12 months, and actually you end up doing more of the brunt work yourself than than it was before. Um so I I think I think we will start to see that more, especially with the employment rights and things like that. I think HR would be a good example of where you could have a model trained specifically on HR matters, but then again, uh that is a very personal and can be a very complex area. So what we'll be looking at is is probate. Um so when you know when a client or individual sadly passes away, obviously you're you're building a set of accounts for the estate, much like a business, you've got to account for liabilities and assets, uh, and that is currently a very human, heavy, and intensive process, especially when it comes to things like tax calculations. And you know, there's there's tools for bits and parts of that process, but I think in the private client world that that we're in, I think anywhere where there's complex calculations that obviously then can be double-checked by you know a human to make sure that it's used everything, you know, and used everything correctly. Um but I think certainly probate and estate administration will be the next thing I think. At the moment, currently very sceptical of deploying anything that is um you know that we've not done our due diligence on. And I think you've set a precedent, Philip, with with being UK-based and SRA regulated. I don't I think that would be the same for let's say if it was HR, we would want them based in the UK, uh, our data based in the UK, and I think being held responsible to the relative body, I think the problem with a lot of AI sort of bots that are more general, is it's all on you. So if you take that advice that you know an AI is giving you and it's not correct, well, it can be used against you, and it ultimately will fall back on you and end up costing you more. So um I think I think it's an exciting time, I really do. I think it's it's a time where we will start to see specialized services in AI, much like Garfield come out in other areas, and it'll be exciting to see what those areas are, I think.

Pricing Models, Trials And Adoption Barriers

Philip 27:28

Something you you just mentioned, I just like to sort of follow up on because I think is a really interesting point, and that was your comment about subscriptions being a barrier to entry. And certainly when we were thinking about how to um build a business model for Garfield, we very much had in mind access to justice and wanting to enable even very small businesses, far smaller than yours, to be able to come on the platform. And we thought at that point subscriptions would be a barrier because small businesses don't want to spend 50, 80, 100 quid to find out if something's very good. So we intentionally avoided it and ensured that people could get on for free uh once they'd onboarded and can have a bit of a play with Garfield and then decide if they wanted to use it. Um, interestingly, very big businesses have the sort of the opposite sort of view in that they tend to prefer subscriptions. So maybe at some point, as an alternative to our pricing model, maybe we should offer them some sort of subscription option if they want it. But I I I think this is a really interesting point. I'm gonna ask you to elaborate on because some of our listeners are going to be Law Tech providers and builders, and you're a natural customer for them. And so your sort of insights as to what how they should be thinking about their business model, I think very helpful.

Owen 28:39

Well, for us, it's uh a transparency thing. So it's very easy to create a web page uh that sells an AI service at a you know X um amount. For example, we're looking at into marketing automation, you know, and that was at starting around £150 a month. And it promises the world up front, and then you you try it, and it it doesn't actually offer uh exactly what it said on the tin. And I think that's the problem. Garfield is the opposite, um, and I promise isn't a paid sponsorship to your viewers. Um but actually, if you just use Garfield, it sells itself. It's a great tool, and it is so intuitive that that I say, anyone could you don't need any technical or legal experience. You can you can upload an invoice and and that's the process will guide you through. We've dabbled a bit into sort of AI scheduling and and marketing, but again found that you sort of are then hooked on this subscription, whether that's a Peg you go or a contracted period. Well, actually, the brunt of the work is actually I'm having to do it for it to then only give out very medium results, really, that I probably could have done better myself. So I think a subscription model works if the product backs itself. You know, we've tried a couple that have trials, and I think that's a good way. Going forward, I think a trial period is good for anything. Until you use something, how do you know if it's going to fit your business? Every business is unique. I didn't know how Garfield would, you know, we look when we f I looked at it and I thought, well,

Design Philosophy: Simple Beats Complex

Owen 30:12

you know, we're doing a very manual invoice process at the minute, but how Garfield will fit in was a bit of an unknown. You know, what stage do we engage Garfield? You know, that's been a bit of trial and error, but it but the point is it's worked from day one and it's and it does what it says on the tin. And I think that's where a lot of potential AI builders can improve on is rather than giving me 30 ticks as to this is what it does, actually, what is the process for getting started? And I think that's the biggest hurdle for firms at the minute, is AI can sort of promise the world, and in some cases there are some really great tools, but what work is it going to need from me in order to get it to a functional, usable tool day to day? With Garfield, that it was nothing. Um, you know, I just upload the invoice. But for more complex um, let's say, marketing campaigns or you know, that are personalized to you know thousands, can that be something that just can be done by a few prompts?

Philip 31:06

Probably not. I think this is a really interesting point about intuitive products that sort of flow naturally for the user. Um, and I can take zero credit for for the way that Garfield is designed like that. So the design philosophy is very much driven by my team. So there's as I understand it, there's basically two ways you can design a software product when you boil it all the way down. You can have a giant sort of 747 cockpit with buttons and and knobs and things you can press and twist and and that sort of thing. Or you can you can have a sort of Apple philosophy where everything is super fluid and fluent and intuitive. And and like a lot of lawyers, of course, initially, I was like, oh, buttons everywhere, that would be great, because lawyers like optionality, don't we? That's how we think. Yeah, and and and my my my team, um, I think I quickly name check them because um they they deserve a big name check. So, you know, Dan, Pablo, James, Harry, Victory, and and Hugo, um, they've always been extremely keen to tell me that I'm totally wrong about buttons everywhere. In fact, buttons are verboten as far as possible, and and and and it should be fluent and a sort of Apple design philosophy. And um, I think if I did if I added anything in this entire department, it was I was wise enough to sort of agree with good advice when it was given to me. I say, yeah, you do it your way, ignore the dinosaur here. And yeah, it is it is very, very fluent. And I think that is a really interesting point for people building products for for businesses, you know, try and build something fluent. And it's a bit like what you were talking about earlier, and in terms of the services that April King provide, you're there to make clients pleased, make their lives just that bit easier, it all flows smoothly, and they have a really good experience.

Owen 32:44

Yeah, I mean, you know, some of the protections that that we offer are really bespoke and really tailored. Our job is not to give the uh the client a law degree, uh, our job is to give them a solution in plain English that is backed by the law. I mean, that is fundamentally most lawyers' jobs, but more so in private client, uh, you know, as you're dealing with the client directly as on a consumer basis. We have the knowledge and the experience to put what they want in place, but it's then giving that in a format which you know is so it's without jog and uh often face-to-face on on a video call like this. So, and yeah, much can be said, I think, for for AI. There's you know, I've seen some even for from a calendar booking system. I logged on to it just as a test, and it it was looking at it was like sort of NASA headquarters. Um whereas you compare that to Garfield,

Outcome-As-A-Service And Closing Thanks

Owen 33:36

and it it's a very welcoming ecosystem in itself. One thing that we struggled with when we were sending sort of manual reminders and things is it's actually how are we then following up on this and and sort of scheduling reminders and things like that. That didn't really exist, but with Garfield, it's it's all in one. So you've got your calendar, you know, reminders of when to send things. So it's almost become our sort of secondary accounts department, if you like. But it it is extremely easy to use, and I think that's a problem with a lot of generic AI tools, is that because they want to promise you so much, the actual infrastructure for the client or the UI is so complex that it almost puts you off from day one. So you've you've got to have something, and I think this is where it goes back to being a you know a specialist tool for a specific purpose. I don't know. I think that that will be the way forward for a lot of services that firms will use going forward.

Philip 34:30

I think actually one of the my big takeaways from this conversation is that although we do different things, we're both fundamentally doing the same thing, which is we're doing outcomes as a service. You know, we what people come to us for is an outcome. Um, and the particular outcome is is what they want. In in the case of your business, they want really good estate planning, they want help with wills, they want to make sure that their inheritance is dealt with as they wish, um, and their tax, the relevant tax affairs are dealt with very nicely. And in in our case, they want something that helps them get paid, um, you know, as preferably with the least hassle involved. And maybe that that is a sort of a generic takeaway applies to many businesses. Um, so yeah, let me let me end by um thank you very much for joining me today, and especially thank you for all your kind words, which uh I can't take any credit for the quality of the product. I am gonna totally pass those on to my team because they deserve all the credit, um, because all the hard work ultimately is them, and I've just sort of probably plagued them with silly questions over the last two years. So thank you very much for for joining me, Owen.

Owen 35:36

Thank you, Philip. It's been an absolute pleasure, and uh thank you very much for having me.