Litigating AI

Philip and Alex Monaco Discuss Grapple and the Future of Consumer Legal Tech

• Garfield AI • Season 1 • Episode 2

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Philip Young sits down with solicitor and law-tech entrepreneur Alex Monaco to explore how AI is reshaping access to justice for ordinary people. Alex traces his journey from criminal defence to founding Monaco Solicitors and explains how COVID-era chaos revealed a huge unmet need for fast, affordable legal help.

Philip and Alex discuss their shared belief that lawyers do not “own” the law and why AI is beginning to dismantle long-standing barriers to representation. Alex reflects on using Garfield to recover long-stalled debts, the importance of approachability in legal design, and why tools that are friendly, fast, and inexpensive increasingly outperform traditional firms.

Barry:

Hello and welcome to the Garfield Podcast. In this episode, Garfield CEO and founder Philip Young talks to Alex Monaco, founder of fellow Law Tech firm Grapple, about how he started his business, how AI is helping to address the imbalance when it comes to consumers versus big corporations, and what Alex, who's a customer of Garfield himself, thinks of the service.

Philip:

Hello, so here we are on the second episode of the Garfield Podcast, and I'm delighted to be joined by Alex Monaco. So Alex is a solicitor, and he is a very, very interesting guy in this space because, like me, he's not just a practicing lawyer, he's also a Law Tech entrepreneur and he's building something very exciting. Um, so without further ado, I'm gonna hand across to you, Alex, just to say a few words, perhaps more than a few words, about your background. Perhaps sort of talk about your journey into law and how you got to the law firm that you founded and built.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, okay, thanks a lot, Philip. Yeah, um it's gonna be hard to live up to that introduction. But I, you know, I do think your Garfield is the first AI law firm, isn't it, in this country, and possibly the world. So I love that. I like to say, I like to think that we're the first consumer AI law firm because we just do individuals. You guys do businesses, small businesses, we do the sort of guy on the street who has a legal problem. But yeah, long journey getting there. In summary, I did science at school, but then I just went into law. I thought I'd try and change the system and had that teenage angst going on. So you know, I went into criminal defence, didn't really like my clients. I'm not saying they were all guilty, but the jury thought they were anyway. And then I went into um I went into refugee and asylum, um, a bit more sort of up my street, really, deportation, and really enjoyed that. But then I had a family quite young, and I and I really had to get a mortgage, I had to get out of legal aid, found my way into employment law, could really help people with their kind of everyday problems, and still just about being able to afford a mortgage. So that was good. I was blogging back in 2010, blogging, got my blogs went to the top of Google, ended up with a law firm off the back of that. So I was literally just telling people how to do their own cases, which has been my thing, because I really have this belief that lawyers don't own the law. Sadly, if you're a lawyer watching it and you know you're selling something that isn't yours, basically, it's it's it's everyone's. And if and if anyone can go down to the British Library and read Latin, they can do their own case. But um obviously, over the last couple thousand years, lawyers have made sure that it's fiendishly complicated. So they've sort of got themselves a monopoly on uh you know how to do legal cases. But fast forward the AI age, really, we fast-forwarded it during COVID because it was so crazy there. People were getting fired by WhatsApp on the way to work. Employment law just went out the window as if a pandemic would just mean that you could fire anyone for any reason by any means, regardless of whether they were pregnant, disabled, you name it, or on the other hand, like forcing people to go into work, perhaps at working at Tesco's on the checkout when their partner had cancer or something at home. And that law, the law wasn't there for that because in if you were vulnerable, that's one thing, but if your partner was vulnerable, there wasn't a law for that. So we were just getting bombarded, and we just sort of thought, ooh, AI. And thinking back in 2020, AI wasn't very good. We thought we could make something, we tried to make our own AI, that didn't work, hired all manner of data scientists and engineers and people. Unlike you, Philip, I'm not actually a coder, but I uh I've got a bit of an understanding of these things and I've sort of managed some of these teams. And a science background as well. Well, a science background, it helps, yeah, because a lot of us lawyers we're all like you know, English literature graduates, aren't we?

Philip:

And if you're scientists grads, yeah. Yeah, I stand guilty as charged on that one, by the way. I I would have liked to have been a scientist, but I I took the easy way out and I just read law.

SPEAKER_00:

But you know what? I I don't know if there are any other lawyers out there who are these kind of tech people. But I I just think it's you and me. I I don't know.

Philip:

I think I think there's a few more of us, but I my my impression is sort of similar to yours that we are we are sadly the minority, and that a lot of lawyers are either not techie or would prefer not to be. And I think in the world that we're heading into, that's not something that's going to continue to be viable for too much longer, because I think law will change. But that's a really interesting topic we might come back to later. Can I just rewind a bit? Because I I think some people listening to this, I think a lot of people listening to this, would be interested in your move from criminal defence work that was legal aid across to employment law, because it's quite difficult to move between two different areas of practice. And yeah, but maybe you could just unpack a bit for listeners how you achieved that.

SPEAKER_00:

Volunteering.

Philip:

Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Basically, volunteering. Yeah, because no one wants to give you a job delay when you don't know what you're doing in uh in law. I think it's called the supervision bottleneck, isn't it? Yeah. So there's I mean, probably millions of law graduates, the universities are selling law degrees like hot cakes and not really telling people about the the number of law jobs available, which is the two things bear no resemblance. So you end up with this law degree and you've got this supervision bottleneck, which means that for the first couple years you're less used to your supervisor than a chocolate teapot at the end of the day, because you're gonna do you're just gonna mess mess up the case, and then these very talented people are gonna have to train you and spend all their time. So volunteering. I you know, I I volunteered with something called Through Free Representation Unit, I believe it's still here, yeah. Yeah, yep, yep, yep. They said, okay, this looks like a one-day hearing. You might not know anything about employment law, but you've you've got the chat. Yeah, yeah. I've done a I've done the the BBC actually, I did the the bar course at that point. Okay. Yeah, yeah. I had a bit of chat about because they gave me this case and off you go.

Philip:

But and I suppose even someone who wasn't sort of a specialist in the field, it's better to be represented by someone who has got at least legal training and has done the the bar course than someone just trying to represent themselves who isn't even a lawyer. So you're still an advantage to the person you're representing. Do you think, as we're heading into an AI-enabled age, that it's going to be easier for lawyers to change disciplines between different practice areas? Because before you made the very solid point that uh you don't you don't have any experience in the new area, so you you're not of that as value to a new firm. But if you've got AI that can support lawyers, maybe do you think if lawyers have got their basic skills, then having an AI co-pilot would then make it easier to change disciplines and make a lawyer's career more rich and varied?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, I think so. You can learn a lot, can't you, from AI? I mean, you can put in your your case into it and uh it can tell you what to do. So I suppose it would be easier. I I actually didn't think that this would be very easy to do, but then I realised that you know, having done employment law for 20 years or something, I'm probably trying to be a bit of a perfectionist. If you're just trying to be a bit better than the average person out there at XYZ law, that's your job as a lawyer, isn't it? Be just a bit more knowledgeable than your client and you know, if possible, a bit more personable. But that's that second one doesn't always pan out.

Philip:

And also the objective voice, because um it's very difficult when people represent themselves to see their case as objectively as a third party can sometimes see it. One one thing I wanted to go back to because I think people listening to this will also find this really interesting, it is your sort of story in employment law. And um, you've been very modest so far, and what you haven't said, so I'll say it for you. You're a founding partner of your own specialist firm. And for anyone listening, it's called Monaco Solicitors, and it's a very specialist firm because, as I understand it, it's employee side only. And I've not heard of any other law firms that do that. So are you the only law firm that that takes that approach, Alex?

SPEAKER_00:

I feel like we started a bit of a craze. There have been a couple of spin-off firms copying us, but yeah, like uh I think on Monday or something, it's going to be our 10-year anniversary at Monaco's. So I got uh I dusted off the unhumble stats because I tried to put a newsletter out as what have what have we actually achieved? And it looks like over the last 10 years, I think we've had five million people on the website. We've got about 20 million pounds of compensation from rogue employers who've fired people unfairly, you know, pregnant women getting made redundant, people with mental health problems being kind of managed out and so on. And yeah, we've had about 10,000 clients and a completely clean regulatory record, which I'm particularly proud of. So out of that, out of that lot, I don't think we've done that much wrong. So that that was good to realize we've hit a few milestones with that. And it as you say, I do own I own Monaco solicitors, it is my firm, but I don't actually work there anymore because I now I have had to transition across full-time to grapple because it's just too much doing that as well. But but yeah, thanks for the plug. Monaco is still a fantastic place to work um because people are very passionate about the mission. As you say, it is very focused on employees, it's got a lot of clients and stuff like that. So it's it is fun if you're into that sort of thing. It's it's about probably the best place you can work, I think. Good, good team, really, really good people.

Philip:

So, one of the topics we were talking about earlier was access to justice and um how important it is, and also how we're both involved in using AI to really try and promote this and to try and give people who historically wouldn't have had easy or good access to the court system and to vindicate their rights a much greater ability to do that with AI. And I thought we'll talk about two topics actually, if if that's okay, Alex, in this segment. And one is Garfield, and the other is your very exciting um new product that you're shortly going to launch called Grapple. So if we just start with Garfield, I think that you don't mind me saying that you have very kindly been one of our early users. And I was going to hand across to you to get your comments on how you found Garfield so far. You know, has it have you found it convenient? Has it been successful? Has it helped you recover any money? Um, and what your impressions are of this sort of technology generally.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, I I don't know about uh us being kind to use it. I think it's more you guys being kind to put it out there because we found it really good. We've probably got about 30 or something like unpaid debts with Garfield at the moment, and I think some of them have come back, and these are people that we I think we've actually probably been chasing for years and have actually come back and and paid, so it's really easy to use. I started using it myself, but then I handed it over to my accounts department, and I've got people using it who just sort of admin people, they're not lawyers, they haven't asked really any questions about it. It's so simple that yeah, you don't have to be a lawyer, but at the same time, as a lawyer, you know, I'm an employment lawyer, so I'm I'm not uh like a civil um litigation lawyer, although I I I have done that in the past, I know a bit about it, but it's helped me a lot, and the interest claim calculations and the formatting and the you know the content of the letters it produces are better than what my law firm would produce, and they're better than what crucially I think ChatGPT would produce, and it sends it out for you, and it sends it by post and email, and it's just genius. Congratulations, or genuinely, I think it's it's incredible.

Philip:

Thank you very much for that, Alex. I I have to say, all genius has to go to the rest of my team and can't possibly apply to me. Well, I'm I'm glad you found it really convenient and easy to use because that was one of the things that we really wanted to focus on in building it because we were really conscious that some of our users obviously will be sophisticated people, and some like you will be lawyers who will either know the area or be lawyers in a different field and have a sort of good understanding of what legal process is like and where the pitfalls are. But we were very conscious that some of our users will be people that don't go anywhere near the law, like sole traders. So convenience was sort of up there at at the uh the top of the list of things we wanted to get to. What did you think, uh as you are a lawyer, of our onboarding system? Because we try to automate that as far as possible to save users time and to avoid the historical system where people onboard onto a law firm by lots of meetings and exchanging documents, it takes lots of time. Do you find that it takes a lot of time on Garfield to generate documents, or is do you find it's relatively quick?

SPEAKER_00:

It's it's super quick. Yeah. It's it's it's incredibly quick. Obviously, it it needs you to upload if you've got the invoice, if you've got the contract, you don't necessarily have to have those things. But it it knows what it's asking you. It's not like a one-minute thing because these things they require a little bit of background, some contact details, so on. But yeah, I I think the way it guides you into what you need and the way it insists on you presenting it in a certain way, again, I mean it's much better than Chat GPT from that point of view, because I think what Garfield and Grapple are both up against now is not actually law firms, it's big AI providers like ChatGPT and Gemini and so on. Although we've probably got the advantage of being able to actually send out legal letters which they don't have. But yeah, I would say it's way better than what you'd get from ChatGPT.

Philip:

What do you think in terms of um a more traditional law firm? I obviously have to ask that, just to see, you know, if you if you were to choose between something like Garfield and a traditional law firm with a with a junior human lawyer, what do you think the pros and cons are of both?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, it it's whether you want some instant reply or whether you want to wait for you know next Tuesday or whatever when they've got back from training and then the holiday and then a million other cases. And with the best will in the world, I think lawyers are potentially better than AI still in terms of ability to write a letter and understand the case, but in terms of speed of response, and there's absolutely no competition at all, is there? I mean, it's just there's no chasing, there's no nudges, there's no phone calls. I mean, it's just instantaneous. So I can't say that I'd actually rather use a law firm. And then there's the cost as well. I mean, it's incomparable. The cost is it's a different ballpark. So I mean, I think the fact that we use it this and we don't use a law firm is probably proof in the pudding. I mean, why are we doing that? It's it's genuinely it's not for a laugh. And I have been in in business for quite a while, so I've used law law firms before for this kind of thing, and it's they're just not as good. Sorry, law firms.

Philip:

There's an interesting other topic that um we've encountered, and I think you're going to encounter this with grapple, and that is that um it's approachability. And I think sometimes lawyers, and I I was guilty of this sometimes when I was in practice, of being too stiff and formal and and sort of regarding that as professionalism and not doing the rapport building with the client often is really important. And sometimes, as well, of course, the lawyer's concerned about the clock ticking and wanting to save the client's money and not do small talk and stuff. And one thing we've discovered, which I think is really interesting, and I've been reflecting on it a lot, is that some of our users say they find Garfield more approachable and informative than their previous experience of dealing with a human lawyer. And some have said also that they felt sometimes with human lawyers they were spoken down to, and with Garfield it's on the same playing field as them in terms of communication. And I wondered if you had any thoughts on that, because obviously I've been mulling it over quite a bit.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I can concur that it is friendly and it is approachable. I feel like the underlying LLMs these days have got that baked into them. You know, over at San Francisco HQ, they've they've created them to make people use them more, so they're kind of really quite nice to people. We've actually found that Grapple, we've had a couple of problems with people falling in love with Grapple. Oh, really?

Philip:

Let's move on and talk about Grapple. So Grapple uh is really exciting, and I'm just going to sort of give a quick introduction to it because again, I fear that Alex otherwise might be a little bit too modest. So Grapple is Alex's new adventure, and he is building uh an AI-powered solution to help employees bring employment claims. And so it's similar to Garfield in that it's trying to help people who ordinarily would struggle to access equal services to be able to solve their problems that in some cases can be very significant in their lives in a way that's much more effective and user-friendly and cost effective. So, with that, let me let me turn to you, Alex, and sort of hand over to you to talk a bit about where Grapple comes from and where you are in terms of um building the product and um where you hope to get to.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's it's come from really the need of people out there. As you said earlier, I do have a law firm, you know, solicitors firm called Monaco Solicitors, and we have, I don't know, 15 lawyers, perhaps 20 coming soon, because we are recruiting. And there's just never enough people to deal with all of the inquiries that come in. So in COVID, we were absolutely overwhelmed with employment law inquiries. If you remember back then, employment law chaos, we you know went on this, started on this road of trying to use AI to fill the gap. We got quite a long way down that road with Monaco Cervicitors as a kind of a hybrid AI human symbiotic partnership between lawyers and and AI, and we still from from a place where we were turning away, I think, 80% of our inquiries, we got down to turning away about 50%, and we do get hundreds of inquiries a day there, and then we were still turning away a huge number of people, and it was obvious that there was this need and not enough uh lawyers to fulfil the need. So Grapple just kind of came from that need, really, as your listeners may or may not know, it's just a fully AI law firm, so there's no lawyers at all, and this is what people don't really they don't really get is that it actually sends letters to your employer, it also does insurance claims that don't pay out. So if your car insurance hasn't paid out, or your travel insurance currently, or your breakdown insurance, also airlines and baggage delays, flight cancellations, and we're planning to do pretty much every part of consumer law for people that especially big corporations that kind of thrive off that inequality of arms, you know, they've got lawyers, the little guy on the street doesn't have lawyers, and the the people out there have never really been able to afford lawyers. So we're just kind of trying to provide that bit of justice for everybody at a very, very um affordable and cheap price point. So, in the same way that Garfield does basically, and I know you help many small businesses, and we're just doing the same thing really for individual people in their daily lives, and it it's it's a lot faster and a lot cheaper than lawyers. We are pre-launch, we're having it officially so at the time of recording, we're um September, aren't we, 2025? So we are launching quite soon, but our pre-launch traction looks pretty good, and we've got literally hundreds of daily users, tens of people signing up as clients a day, um sending out legal letters. Every review at the moment has been five star, and that's been the thing that's been super overwhelming for me just to read those things and think, wow, people would really love this, and you know, yeah, like they could get a lot of advice out of ChatGPT, it wouldn't be quite as good, but it would be decent. But what ChatGPT doesn't do is it doesn't give them that sword and shield, if you like, of a law firm that they don't want to get you know an email from their HR director on Friday afternoon, which would just ruin their weekend, you know. But Grapple Lord sort of takes care of that for them. So yeah, it seems to be going well so far, and we're we're gonna go ahead and um and start raising capital as well. Now for some expansion. So that you know, we're going to do a crowdfund, which will be fun, and then we're we're probably going to talk to professional investors as well.

Philip:

So the crowdfunders are an interesting approach. I don't think law firms have historically thought about that sort of thing. So you're going to do a Kickstarter or something like that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah, one of those ones. Yeah. You just kind of go out to the public, you're you're offering to give away uh what to sell shares, right? Like equity in the business.

Philip:

And anyone can offer stretch goals and things as well, isn't it? With those sorts of things where you sort of say if this extra money is paid, then we would build X or build Y or Give U Z, that sort of approach. That's really interesting. That's a really interesting new model of um finding money to build legal products.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and it gets people involved as well, doesn't it? Gets people, you know, you get a fan base and people want it and then they recommend it to their friends and so on.

Philip:

And uh you you have to tell everyone the HTTP of Grapples to save them going off and Googling.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh-huh. Well, yeah, you can check it out online. It's w.grapple.law. If you go on to Grapple Law, if you want to, if you want to try it out, you can try it out for completely for free. Coming soon, we're we're introducing different levels of membership and so on for people to subscribe to. But we always want to keep a free version for people that need it. So there is always going to be that advice available, yeah, grapple.law. Go, you know, raising money and raising investment because we're B2C and we're not B2B. Is that you think that's harder? Do you think it's harder to get money if you're B2C? I think it's harder. I think to be honest, I think we're not going to make a huge number of friends in the corporate world because you know this thing is is potentially going to be a nightmare.

Philip:

But I I I think I think from my perspective, certainly watching the the VC market since Garfield has launched, a lot of them do seem to think that B2C is the future. And I think when you launch, you'll find lots of VC fans who believe that suddenly want to be your new very best friend, Alex. Fingers crossed. Yeah, no, it's interesting, isn't it? Because historically, you're right, money in LawTech was was relatively small up to a couple of years ago and then just exploded with the AI boom. And historically it's been B2B, but we've had VCs reach out to us and they've been saying, Oh, we think the future is B2C. And they've been seeing us as B2C, even though I don't personally think Garfield is B2C. I think Garfield is more B2B because our user base is people with businesses, not um ordinary consumers. Um I I don't know if you if I can sort of press you on a launch date just so that if this goes out before you have launched, people know to be ready, or but don't feel under any obligation if you you don't have to.

SPEAKER_00:

No, no, it we are launching on um next Friday actually. That's so the 19th of September. Um we'll see what that entails, but we're definitely going to have a party, and it is it's 10 years celebration of um the birthday of Monaco solicitors as well. So we're we're definitely gonna have a party and do our best to launch this thing. As you know, it is difficult to conceive, manage, run, and generally develop one of these AI law firms. I think there's a lot of lawyers out there who think you could just hire some tech people and you know give them some cases, yeah, yeah, stuff will just go just happen. And actually, it is hard, but yeah, I do I do take I do take heart reading reading the the chats that people have and the correspondence, you know, every day we've got people who are they are suffering at the moment, we're focusing on people with difficulties at work. Um, as I say, it does do those other areas, and we are going to expand it even wider. But people who've got problems at work, serious problems, that they may be being bullied by a nightmare boss, you know, they're sending a um a legal letter on sort of grapple-headed email. And then when that response comes back, they're getting that advice from grapple, it's drafting the response and it's sending the response back to the employer, frankly, within minutes. I mean, they're I the employers must be wondering what's going on at that point because never before are they gonna receive a letter from a law firm, you know, the same day or the next day that they sent one out. And I have to say, if I was a lawyer at the moment or a law firm, I'd be wondering how I was gonna go ahead and compete with that because that that speed of efficiency of service and the cost and so on, I mean, it's it's low, it's a low cost and a high speed service. And if you're just gonna compete on quality, that's fine. I mean, it's just a it's gonna be a big race to the top, and there's it's gonna be very competitive there, and there always will be the chairperson of a bank or someone that will definitely need a very expensive lawyer, you know, representing them. But there's gonna be a lot more people out there now, and I'm a big believer in this use case for AI because what we've seen at the moment, the big use cases for AI have been companies like Meta or Google using them for advertising spend, or Amazon and all of these companies using them for facial recognition checkpoint um surveillance security systems that are actually facilitating all sorts of oppression of people across the globe, and they're using it to for weaponry and businesses that are frankly not helping people at all. And it's nice to see an AI use case where it you could actually level up the playing field a little bit and have people overcoming right, they're actually gonna be able to fight back against these big corporations.

Philip:

A question that we get asked at Garfield a lot is how do you sort of maintain and verify quality? And obviously at Garfield at the moment, I'm still checking all of the documents before they go out the door, so that is not presently um remotely an issue, but in the fullness of time, we're gonna move to a situation where a lot of documents are sent out the door that haven't been checked by me because we've got a large data set and we are confident that the automated systems that we have built are checking the documents in the same way that I would, and it's the same quality. And how how are you dealing with that, Alex, at Grapple? Do you have a sort of similar system?

SPEAKER_00:

No, I mean we don't check things before they go out because we are happy with our AI, our trained, as you say, on data sets and specialized to what we do. And whenever you get that situation, we've got hundreds of daily active users at the moment, and we haven't even launched yet. So when you try and scale that up, you've got a problem basically. And I think it's a trade-off between speed on one hand, which in these kind of cases is often like keeping that momentum going, keeping people motivated. It's very hard for the average person to get into that legal arena. But when they start seeing results, when they start seeing letters going out the door, they start feeling like they've got that momentum. And as soon as you put humans in the loop checking those things, it slows it down. And then as soon as you slow that down, people start doubting themselves and wondering and so on. So it's that trade-off, isn't it? Between from a perfectionism point of view, is that got all the I's dotted and the T's crossed? Or is it quick, is it cheap, and is it efficient? And does it get the job done? Yeah, you've got to spot check stuff, you've got to be happy with your system, you've got to build it in a way that you believe it in. I was going to ask you about that because you know, for you to be checking them all yourself is fantastic now. And obviously, as you expand though, I mean it's you're either going to hire more of you or migrate across to not checking them, I guess.

Philip:

We're definitely going to go in the latter direction. And um, we've had long dialogue with the SRA about this, and they understand and agree our plan to do so. At the moment, I have to say that one of the takeaways I have got from six months or so of Garfield now is that a lot of the time that lawyers spent is doing the backwards and forwards with the client, getting the information and doing the QA to get all the facts. And um the one of the great things AI can do is it can do an awful lot of that for you and then present basically to you a package which actually you've got a good package of documents. It doesn't take very long at all to check them, and it really, really accelerates the process. On the other hand, I think that this is sort of an interim stage and probably reflects the fact that we launched earlier um this year when the technology hadn't even advanced as much as it is now. I think, like you, I see a future where an awful lot of these products will exist in all different sort of areas of legal practice, and a lot of them will just be simply automated and there won't be humans in the loop. Um, and I think that's going to be a very interesting sort of future.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it would be interesting, and you give people a tool like this, and there'll be people that say, well, gosh, you can't let people just have legal representation. Imagine the crazy court claims that they're going to be issuing. And, you know, I don't agree with that on a philosophical level because, well, first of all, anyone can issue a court claim now if they want to. So it's just making that person's job a bit easier, they're more likely to issue something that's not right. But we're lawyers, we're not judges, you know, and it's it's been historically very, very, very difficult for people to actually issue court claims and to try to get some legal representation and advice. And if that barometer swings the other way and it's now too easy, then I don't want to be that person to declare that it's suddenly people have got too many rights. I think that's a cause for celebration. So let's let's see if it if it becomes a problem, you know, we'll deal with it then. But at the moment, it's really empowering a lot of people that really couldn't do this before. Um and when you check our reviews and stuff, like everyone's just saying it's super fast, super efficient, literally no complaints at all, like gave loads of confidence, felt deflated and now and now feel powered. So it now you feel elated. If you felt deflated, yeah. Deflated, inflated, maybe inflated or elated, one of the two.

Philip:

Yeah. Let me wrap up there by thanking you very much for coming on and speaking to us, Alex, and giving up your time. And um really wish you all the best with Grapple. I think it's really exciting, and I think it's going to go very well. And I really, really hope that a lot of people get some really great benefits out of it, and it helps improve a lot of people's lives.