Ep 76: Leadership That Multiplies | Book Recommedations

Great leadership isn’t just about getting things done — it’s about growing your influence and developing other leaders who can multiply the mission.

In this episode, Mark breaks down one of the most practical leadership frameworks he’s ever used: John Maxwell’s Five Levels of Leadership. Instead of treating leadership like a collection of random tips, this model gives leaders a clear roadmap for growing influence and developing others. Mark explains each level and how this framework helps leaders evaluate themselves, grow their teams, and build organizations that multiply leaders instead of depending on one person.

📋 Key Takeaways

• Leadership grows through levels of influence.
  Maxwell’s model shows that leadership develops from positional authority to developing other leaders.
  • Level 1 – Position  |  People follow you because they have to.
  • Level 2 – Permission  |  People follow you because they want to.
  • Level 3 – Production  |  Leaders begin accomplishing results through people, not just personal effort.
  • Level 4 – People Development  |  The focus shifts from tasks to developing leaders who can multiply the mission.
  • Level 5 – Pinnacle  |  Influence becomes so strong that reputation alone inspires people to follow.
• Leaders operate at different levels with different people.
  You might be a strong leader with one group but start back at level one with another.

💬 Quotes & Soundbites

“A doer can accomplish things. A leader accomplishes things through people.”

“The captain can lead the team, but the coach can reproduce players.”

“Leadership isn’t just scattered principles. It’s a framework for growing influence.”

“If you want to help more people, you have to become more intentional about growing your leadership.”

📖 Scripture Tie-Ins

These passages reinforce the leadership themes discussed:

2 Timothy 2:2
“Entrust to faithful people who will be able to teach others also.”
→ Leadership that multiplies leaders.

Ephesians 4:11–12
“Equip the saints for the work of ministry.”
→ Leadership is about developing others.

Proverbs 27:17
“Iron sharpens iron, and one person sharpens another.”
→ Leadership growth through relationships.

🛠 Next Steps for Listeners

Here are a few ways listeners can apply this episode this week:

1️⃣ Identify your leadership level

Ask yourself honestly:

• Am I leading mostly through position?
• Or do people follow me because of relationship and trust?

2️⃣ Evaluate your key leaders

Think about the people on your team.

Ask:

• Who is a strong doer?
• Who has the potential to become a leader of others?

3️⃣ Start developing one leader

Pick one person you can intentionally develop.

Ask:

• What responsibility could they take?
• How could you help them grow?

4️⃣ Read the book

Grab The Five Levels of Leadership by John Maxwell and skim it first to get the framework.

Journaling Prompt

• “Who are two people I could intentionally develop this year?”

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Transcript

Mark Carter (00:06):

What's happening Peeps? One of the purposes of this channel or podcast, if you're listening to it, is to help leaders grow their influence more quickly than I knew how to grow mine. So I want to recommend a resource. It's a more golden resource than many, and it is the book by John Maxwell, The Five Levels of Leadership. Let me tell you kind of what it's about and then why it's good for young leaders. What this book does that other books don't do is it provides a framework for how to think about expanding and intentionally growing your influence over others. Sometimes we can think about leadership like it's just these scattered principles that you kind of pull together when you're in a certain situation. There's a lot of books about those kinds of things and that can be very, very helpful. What it lacks though sometimes when we're thinking about it that way is an undergirding paradigm or framework to think about, how do I make a plan to become a better leader in a way that I can actually tell that I did become a better leader?
(01:08)
And then once I know how to do that, how do I help other people do that? So that's what this book really is about. That's the underpinning. So the great benefit is the ability to understand not only where I am at as a leader, but where others are so I can take them further in their influence and the whole organization can be helped by that. This book does have the dos and don'ts, but they're related to advancing your leadership level so you can help more people and then those people can help more people.
(01:35)
Okay. So let me just start and tell you what the five levels of leadership are. They go up. So level one is the lowest level and that is the positional leadership. Positional leadership, you've had leaders like this; These are just folks who, they were in charge, they weren't necessarily good.
(01:51)
They didn't necessarily care about you. They were just the one who had to tell you what to do. They were the warehouse manager. They were the manager at the restaurant and they just got to that point and say, "You go do that. " There's not anything wrong with that, but it's the very lowest form of leadership. And it can be a great stepping stone to others, but you just got to know if that's where someone is. It's debatable whether they've actually started really leading yet in the way that I would define leadership. They're not getting anyone to do anything that those people don't necessarily want to do to help the organization.
(02:24)
So let's start with level one: position. This is where you just have a position. You're just in charge. You've been given the title. You get to direct people. And direct is a good word for this level because you can tell people, you go there and you go there and they should do it because you're the authority, you're the one in charge, because you've been given a title or a position, but that's really it.
(02:47)
What this really is, often it's a really high level doer. A doer is somebody who does a really great job. They will do it with excellence. They'll make it get done. They'll do it better than everybody else. That's a doer. And a doer is a great captain. And a captain does, like they're the leader of the team. The problem with the captain is the captain can't reproduce any players. The captain can't grow any coaches. Only a coach can do those things. So you want to advance from a captain to a coach. To get to a coach, you have to go to level two.
(03:18)
Level two is the permission level. This is where you're leading people because they actually want to follow you. What happened? You relationally invested in them. You went around and you were interested in them. You were interested in their life, interested in what's going on with them, what are their gifts? How can you help them get where they're trying to go? This is where people are buying into you as much as your leadership because they feel like you're helping them in some way. You're in a sense from God helping them. That's level two permission.
(03:46)
After permission, you get to production. This is where your leadership is working. You're leading through other people and things are getting done. Meaning they're following you is not only people, but there's accomplished things. And importantly, it's not just that you accomplished things. You don't have to be a level three leader to accomplish things. When you're a level three leader, you tend to accomplish things through people. You get the people to do it. That's a level three leader.
(04:11)
The next one is one of my favorites; It's the people development level. So level four is you're doing all the other things, but you're also developing people. This is where you're helping them not only achieve the goal, whatever it was, you're helping them become a higher level leader themselves.
(04:26)
The final level is what John Maxwell calls the pinnacle level. This is really where your reputation precedes you. People will follow you and do what you think is a good idea because of who you are. I'm sure you can think of famous people. That's probably the easiest way to do it. Think of the Craig Groeschels, people will do what he wants to do because it's him that wants to do it. That's the pinnacle level. I don't think I'm ever going to have to worry about that kind of thing. So I'm going to stick to levels one through four at this point in my life. And I'm going to try to help people get from level one to level four if God has given them the grace to be able to be on one of those levels.
(04:57)
What stands out about this book is it gives you the blueprint. It gives you the how do you do this. So as I said, it gives you the dos and don'ts on each level. If you're on level one, it says, this is what you do to get to level two. If you're on level two, it says, this is what you do to get to level three, but also to make sure you don't fall back to level one. And so on and so on. What is not intuitive is that as high as you go, you're only on that level with certain people. So just because you're level three leader with these people, dude, you go somewhere else and you're nobody. They don't know what you did. They don't know what you've accomplished. And so one of the ways it trains you to think is you're very likely on different levels with different people.
(05:34)
And you want to be able to evaluate if this is really important to influence that person, how do I get to be a greater influence in their life? But then even more importantly, how do I get others around me to grow in their leadership so they're thinking about the same questions? This book is going to give not only the paradigm, but the do's and don'ts of how to get there and avoid falling backwards.
(05:58)
Okay. So how do I use this book? Well, I use it for self-sharpening. So this one, this is like a reference book almost like you're going to want to come back to this because there's so many nuggets on every other page that are going to sharpen you. You're never going to get them all. So just coming back again and again, reminding us, okay, I want to be developing myself here. Oh, don't lose that thing.
(06:15)
But then it helps me evaluate staff and leaders. What is their potential? Where are they at as a leader and where could they be? This gets me thinking in those grooves and asking questions about them. It causes me, again, to recategorize what kind of what level leadership does this employee or this leader have?
(06:33)
And then finally, and this is going to sound bad, it helps me discern potential in people. It's not that I don't love people. I will spend lots of time with people that I'm pastoring, but I'll also, just subconsciously even, categorize them as, "oh, they're not going to go from level one to level two. That's just not in them." So I'm going to love them, but I'm not going to keep investing hours and hours and hours in developing them as a leader. I'm not going to give them a great big assignment because they won't bring people with them.
(07:03)
So it's an everyday paradigm that I think through to help me make good decisions. And we've definitely done this wrong, man. We try and try and try and give them chances. And dude, they're just not level two leaders, so it's never going to work. As I think back over the years, one of the things I think has held my organization back more than any is I didn't teach my key leaders to do this earlier, to identify the difference between a doer and a leader and try to help them up the leadership ladder. I've got great people and they have helped people a lot, but I'm just saying earlier in the life of the organization, I wish I would have made this part of the DNA.
(07:37)
So here's my recommendations. I would encourage you, first, get a copy of the book, skim it at the very least, just to get the broad picture. Then read it and take some of the notes, get some of the nuggets out of there. Even if you just get the Kindle and look at the popular highlights, that will still do you much good.
(07:52)
Second, try to figure out what level you're on. There's an assessment in the book to kind of help you figure out where really are you, but then also look at the key leaders around you. Where are they and how could you help them go to the next level?
(08:05)
And finally, I think one of the great benefits of this book, guys, is it just stirs you up to remind you, you can actually grow your ... You can have more influence over people if you'll just focus on doing that, not in a manipulative way, not in a haughty way, just in a like, "We can help more people if I'll be more intentional about how I'm helping my people, my key leaders and myself grow our influence over time."
(08:27)
All right, everybody, thank you so much for tuning in today. Hey, if this was helpful, would you consider liking and sharing, putting it places where other people who need this kind of content are going to find it? Also, you may know that we have a lot of other places you can find our stuff: TikTok, Instagram, all the things. So go ahead and check those out in places where you're going to be anyway, and don't forget to lead strong today.