Ep 82: The Siren Song Of Being Awesome | Lessons from LeaderLab

If your leadership only “works” when people approve of you, you’re not just tired, you’re being discipled by the wrong story. We sit down and name the pressure Christian leaders feel in a visibility culture: the pull to look blessed, look successful, and look unbothered, even when Jesus is inviting us into something quieter, truer, and far more costly.

Using insights from Pete Scazzero’s *Emotionally Healthy Discipleship*, we unpack four subtle traps that can Americanize Jesus: be popular, be great, be successful, and avoid suffering and failure. We talk honestly about how those goals creep into church leadership, social media, and even “good” ministry ambition. Then we contrast that with biblical greatness: humility, self-denial, and the slow inner work of a Spirit-saturated life that keeps our hearts on guard.

We also get painfully practical. What does faithfulness over popularity look like when you’re leading a team, navigating a church merger, giving performance feedback, or confronting sin with love? We share stories of choosing obedience over optics, why truth can cost followers, and how failure can become a gift that breaks confidence in the flesh and strengthens dependence on Jesus.

If you’re building leaders or trying to become one, press play and reset your compass toward cross-centered Christianity, integrity, and emotionally healthy discipleship. Subscribe, share this with a leader friend, and leave a review so more people can find the conversation.

Follow us on Socials:  @bibleleaderpod

Check out our website: Bibleleadership.com

Sign up for our newsletter:  http://bit.ly/3NmVmNM

Transcript

Success Can Hide God’s Mercy

Mark Carter 0:00

If all you've ever done is succeed, you can subtly believe that it's because you're so doggone awesome and good. And you can miss the fact that, no, it's because God was being merciful to you. Yeah. Be great and do excellence before the Lord, but the world's applause for your greatness, dude. That again, that's a siren song. Successism and like greatnessism is all about how great and successful I am. It's personal, yes. And the Lord is coming along, and he's really trying to pull the rug out from under there.

Erica Adkins 0:36

Hey Bible Leadership Peeps, we're so glad that you were joining us. I want to just let you know you're jumping into a conversation that Mark and I are having about a thing we have called Leader Lab. So we are at our church trying to grow our leaders so that they are more effective in their leadership, in their capacity, and their love of God and the love of his people. And so we're gonna talk about just different principles that we're going through this with our Leader Lab people. And we invite you to join because when a leader gets better, everybody gets better, as Craig Rochelle would say. So dive in with

Why Christianity Needs A Cross

Erica Adkins 1:07

us.

Mark Carter 1:07

What's happening, everybody? Welcome back to the Bible Leadership Podcast. It's Carter and Erica, and today we're talking about something really important, and that is the need to get back to a Christianity with a cross in it. Um there is an idea, Pete Schizaro talks about this in his book, Emotionally Healthy Discipleship. We're talking about that again for this episode and the next one. Just about how there's a wanting to be great that is at odds with the real greatness that is in the Bible.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Yeah.

Mark Carter 1:37

And it's it's a version of happiness that is, it's almost like the American church imports the world's happiness and tries to import it into the church and be like, you should be able to be a Christian and have all these happy things. And it's partially right. It's partially right that you should be more joyous than anybody. Yeah. There's certainly God will bless you and prosper you in a way that you know looks like, wow, the blessing of God is on that person.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Yeah.

Mark Carter 2:00

But it also reinforces idolatries, it rein reinforces even coveting things that, like, yeah, but does the Lord really want you to want that in that amount? Um, it can create a discontent with what God has wisely and goodly given us. Um, and it can just make our hearts uh hungry for all the kingdoms of the world that the devil promised Jesus instead of like, dude, the kingdom that I'm promised. This is ridiculous compared to that kingdom. And so we're just not on guard. We we've and somehow like I don't think any Christian means to, but Christian organizations or Christian uh social media can can heighten the worldly desire for worldly things instead of I want God's blessing. And if it's not God's blessing, even if it looks blessed, I don't want it.

Erica Adkins 2:49

Yeah. The chapter title is chapter four, Americanize Jesus. And I I think as much as we try, it is really, really difficult to not let culture seep into us.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Yeah.

Erica Adkins 3:01

And sometimes as a Christian leader in America, and maybe I think we actually have viewers from Africa, I think I checked in semi-recently. Um, but in the American culture, especially, that like American dream and prosperity and all of these things, it really does seep into who we are and our expectations.

Mark Carter 3:19

Yeah.

Erica Adkins 3:20

But Jesus is calling us to a different way. Um, and so as a young leader, sometimes you get you get in this idea of like, well, I can be popular and I can have all the things and I'm gonna, I'm gonna shoot for all of that. And we're not saying any of that is necessarily evil, but what's true is the longer that you walk with the Lord, obedience costs popularity. Like you're not gonna be popular with everybody because God's word is absolutely countercultural to the world that we're in.

Mark Carter 3:51

Um I think that's part of what we mean by the Americanized Jesus is it's the absence of the costliness. Yeah. So it definitely can include the blessing part. Yeah. It's just with the costless. I'm I remember a season of life where, you know, we really did need to know that God will bless you and prosper you. Like we were poor, dude, and we needed hope. And we looked at the Bible, like, oh yeah, God will bless your finances if you give, God will bless your wisdom if you, you know, uh set up your finances well and wisely.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

Yeah.

Mark Carter 4:18

100% all that's true. And even just believing God. Believing God causes great things to happen. Yep. I I just think you get to the point though where, yeah, but the thing he's really after is the inner richness of a walk with God that is um always on guard against the world. And that only comes through a thorough, consistent the only way to hedge against the lies of this is by deep, spirit-saturated word life that is constantly reminding you, no, that's not that. Yeah, like don't aim at that. Like, I'm here, this is what it is in Jesus.

Erica Adkins 4:49

So we talked about that a lot in the podcast before this, so go check that out. But truth costs followers.

Mark Carter 4:56

Like Come on, dude. Oh no.

Erica Adkins 5:00

God's God's word is not going to tickle the ears. And we're in the season, right, where that those scriptures are coming so true. Like, men will search for the ears to be tickled. They want to hear what they want to hear, and they don't want to hear the truth. And so truth costs followers, surrender costs comfort. Like, there's just gonna be things as you're obeying the Lord, like you're gonna have to lay down some comfort. That's just how it works. Leadership feels lonely. The longer that you walk as a leader, you're gonna find as you seek the Lord. I actually just had this conversation with my son the other day. Like, buddy, I'm so sorry, but we're not gonna let you watch that or play that because we have a deep conviction that this is the way that the Lord is leading our family. And that's hard. That does feel lonely. My 14-year-old son is the only one in his class without a phone. That feels lonely, right? But like those are deep convictions that we have from the Lord. Not everybody has to have that conviction. I'm just saying, it can feel lonely. And sometimes, guys, especially in our social media, every everybody's faces out there, um, you gotta choose sometimes between optics and obedience. Yep. Right. And that's gonna be hard. We have a friend who had this awesome TikTok profile and like tons of followers and was able to monetize it because of all that. And she said one thing about her faith, and she lost like 30% of her followers. And it was that was like a massive hit. But like the cross is lowly. Yeah, the cross is lonely, the cross is difficult. It's not easy to carry that cross.

Mark Carter 6:33

And so and it's hard to see in those moments that from heaven's perspective, yeah, all of heaven was like, yes, like way to go. Yes, you know, you chose Jesus instead of all these folks that don't care about the things of God.

Erica Adkins 6:45

Yeah. And we're in such a visibility culture that our exterior lives are tried to be portrayed in the most beautiful and polished sort of way. Um, but Jesus is really discipling us to surrender and to that quiet inner life.

Mark Carter 6:59

So that's good even to say from the start, it's not a perfection thing. It is just a daily surrender thing. Like I don't have to get it perfect. I just need to know the world is my enemy, dude. Like the world really is my enemy and careful when it tries to smuggle stuff in.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

Yeah.

Mark Carter 7:16

Um, that makes it so you don't need to cross.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

Yeah.

Mark Carter 7:19

That's a lie, yo. It's a trap. That's a trap.

Erica Adkins 7:24

So, Mark, how does modern culture subtly reshape Jesus into someone easier to follow?

Four Traps That Americanize Jesus

Mark Carter 7:31

I like the way that Pete says it in this book, again, uh Emotionally Healthy Discipleship. So he talks about these four big things that we want to be resisting. Um, they are be popular, be great, be successful, and avoid suffering and failure. So those are his like four things that characterize and Americanize Jesus. Yeah. Be popular, be great, be successful, and avoid suffering and failure.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Yeah.

Mark Carter 7:57

Um his antidotes to those really are just do the opposite. So reject popularity for popularity's sake. Yeah. To be sure, God uh apportions some influence for the purposes of doing his kingdom work. Yeah. But the lust for popularity and the chasing of it will cause us to compromise. We're choosing the wrong Jesus. Um greatnessism, which is just the idea of let's be great.

Erica Adkins 8:24

Build your own kingdom.

Mark Carter 8:25

Yes. It's the Nebuchadnezzar spirit. Yeah. It is like, hey, let's all be great together. Hey man, be great and do excellence before the Lord. Yeah. But the world's applause for your greatness, dude, that again, that's a siren song. Like, that is not, you can't trust that thing. That thing might be trying to kill you.

Erica Adkins 8:42

No, because greatness rises and falls with the flow of the human heart. And that is there's there's nothing to aim for actually there.

Mark Carter 8:50

And this version of greatness has no concept of the real greatness that Jesus talked about, which is, you know, the greater must become less. Yeah. Like that's what's great in the kingdom of God. Deny yourself. Humility. Be successful, so reject successism, which is just as like, let's all celebrate the success that this was. Not that we shouldn't give God praise for successes that we see in the kingdom. The problem is in the world, you don't know for sure that there's not a bunch of hell in whatever success, right? Let's just look at the Oscars, dude, or any other kind of like publicly look how you know successful we all are.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Yeah.

Mark Carter 9:26

Bro, I mean I'm just saying there might be a ton of that that the Lord is like, yeah. That is an abomination to the kingdom of God. And that that should not be celebrated. And so don't join in the Kingdom of Darkness with essentially exalting something that is uh a distraction from the glories and the beauty of Jesus. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Erica Adkins 9:44

Well, and what other traps come with that? Like my son is my oldest son is recently uh like just absolutely obsessed with Heath Ledger and the cautionary tale that in like as as his success got the greatest, so did his depression and anxiety. And then like he he took his own life. And like the traps that sometimes come with his successism, like it it really actually's not worth it sometimes. I don't know.

Greatness And Success Can Corrupt

Mark Carter 10:10

So you know, and and some of you, some of you don't know this about me. I was an actor before I was a Christian. Um, so I got an undergrad in acting, and part of my journey was I wanted to be great and I wanted to be successful. And part of that culture, at least at that time and the people I was with, the culture was about let's prove to the world how awesome I am. Like they will applaud my talent, I'll receive props from it, I'll feel good about that. But the amount of hell that you were required to compromise with, whether it is just be in the room with certain conversations or actively participate and do this on stage, like um it was the it was the lure of the enemy saying this is great and this is successful. And the increasingly, as even as I got more success in it, it was increasingly dead. I was like, I don't feel good about that. Like I walked off stage feeling like, ugh. And so there's just there's things that cannot be reconciled here on planet Earth, man. It's the spirit of the world, and I'm not saying sometimes they're confusing because they're kind of mixed together. All we're saying is don't just believe because it's great or successful, that that is oh, that must be God giving it to me.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

Yeah, yeah.

Mark Carter 11:19

So okay, so avoid suffering and failure. Yeah. Um I think this is the big one that I see, especially young folks deal with. Failure is like the most frightening thing in the universe. And it's I get it. Uh, but failure is is a kingdom tool, man. Failure is God's proof that he loves you. Like failure is God's training, not his rejection. Yes. Failure doesn't mean something's wrong with you. It means there's more to do to work with to make you an awesomer and awesomer tool before the Lord, you know, in the Lord's hands.

Erica Adkins 11:55

And we're talking about like in projects and doing things, not failure in sin.

Mark Carter 12:00

Right. And even in sin, if it leads to the humility of no confidence in the flesh, of learning like because we've probably all been places where we're young enough in the Lord to be like, I got this. I'm gonna beat this sin by tomorrow, by next weekend, we're gonna be fine. And then boom, you keep failing and you keep failing.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

Yeah.

Mark Carter 12:20

And part of the embracing of that failing is to lose confidence of the flesh and be like, Yes, because I am nothing, and everything within me, even when I want to do good, I end up doing bad because the Bible's true and God still loves me. And what does it reinforce? It reinforces my value in God's eyes. It's not based on what humans think it is. It's not based on my success. It's based on my dependence on Jesus to rescue me from my propensity to fail and love of such things.

Erica Adkins 12:47

Yeah, that's so good.

unknown 12:50

Wow.

Erica Adkins 12:51

Okay, so what does it actually look like then to choose faithfulness over popularity in practical everyday leadership positions?

Mark Carter 12:58

I think it goes, it's tied to last time's podcast.

Erica Adkins 13:02

Yeah, okay.

Mark Carter 13:03

In that there's gotta be a going slow and asking, make making sure, like asking, why am I doing what's my why here? Ooh, that's a good question. Like, why am I why am I trying to win this?

Erica Adkins 13:15

Thinking like an actor. What's my motivation? Sorry.

Mark Carter 13:18

And that's totally it. Like it's it's even as I'm moving forward in ministry, and this is this is the tricky part where the Americanized Jews can be in ministry. It's like, why are we doing this again? Is it to make everyone think that we're awesome?

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Yeah.

Mark Carter 13:31

No, it's for the kingdom of God. Yeah, I know. But also, like if we can just do that version, let's do that. But is there also a, yeah, but I really want the props and I want people to see that like we're the we're the crew, man. Like, we got it now. We got the right culture, we got the right people, we got the right skills. Dude, you that that's where you're going too fast. You gotta slow down and be like, God, I repent of my wrong motives. Let's even still do it if it's permissible, God's will. But I repent of the wrong desires in it.

Erica Adkins 14:00

Yeah.

Mark Carter 14:00

So sorry, go ahead.

Erica Adkins 14:02

No, that's good. I just have the visual of like the the wheat among the tares. Like, there's you're you're gonna you're gonna eventually see, like the the longer that you go, some of some of these weeds are growing up among the good fruit. And you've got it, you've got to be conscious of it and and walking along with the Lord the whole time to like, okay, God, help me, help me to see the roots that are going down deep that are malformed, that like my understanding is skewed. And like give me, give me eyes to see that and then uproot that quick, Jesus. Like, help me to keep pulling those because they're gonna keep coming.

Mark Carter 14:40

And you're talking about the right thing, because it's pruning our own soul, yeah, not necessarily someone else's. Yeah. So as a young leader, you can look at the ones above you and be like, I'll tell you what, we need to prune in them. And maybe, yeah, if you can prune it through prayer for them, that's great. Um, but be be as focused or more focused on your own soul and the places where, yeah, but are you embracing obscurity? Like that's a big one for me in the latter part of life. Like Jesus embraced obscurity, like Jesus was hidden. Yeah, Jesus, people didn't know he was from Nazareth. You know what I'm saying? Like he was nothing, and so um when when things go wrong in life, this is where it can really get tested.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

Yeah.

Mark Carter 15:22

Does this humble me? Oh, then it's good. Yeah, even though it was bad.

unknown 15:26

Yeah.

Mark Carter 15:26

Oh, did I just fail? Yeah, you did, but it's good. Like, or like, oh, we just crushed that. Yeah, but what's your inner monologue there? Is it because yep, because I told you we were awesome. And that's that's the opposite of the kingdom of God. Yeah.

Erica Adkins 15:41

So Mark, can you tell on yourself a little bit from our our early days and and maybe your super early days with your first church plan, but um like the the draw of your heart when we first started our church versus like the more tempered understanding of like the the allure of fame.

Mark Carter 16:01

I'll tell you some of the lore here. Um I think like probably many, there's there's a lot of right that starts in the heart. Yeah. I want to do good for the Lord, I feel like he wants me to do this. I think there can also be, and this is worse, way worse now, there can be a

Why Failure Trains Leaders

Mark Carter 16:19

sexiness about how it can look on social media that you're drawn to and you want to become that. You want to become seen as this rather than really just do it for the Lord. So as an example, and this is this is harder with technology because I remember it's 2009, and we we had a website that I was like, that's a sexy website right there. Now this is a 2009 website, I guess. It can't be that sex, but it was pretty great. It was pretty great for it was good first time. Yeah. But one of the things that was true was this kind of presents us as better than we are, because we're this little thing in a movie theater. Like we're not, we're not as good as this thing is showing us to be.

Erica Adkins 17:00

Like two staff members, and yeah.

Mark Carter 17:02

And like it just looks like we have our act together. But if you show up here, you're gonna be like, oh, they do not have their act together. Um, which might be part of the attraction for you, but I'm just saying, I was glorying in that website, okay, but I in my spirit I was a little bit aware, I was like, I don't know if that's entirely true the way we're representing us though.

Erica Adkins 17:20

Okay.

Mark Carter 17:20

And so there was a there's a trade I was making in my spirit of like, I'll take the sexy, you know, saran wrap around it rather than try to find a way to be more honest about it. Yeah. It could have still been good looking, great looking, you know what I'm saying? But that's an example of where I probably was, instead of embracing the stage we were, yeah, and enjoying the fact that we got to do this and just doing the best we could, it was it was like, oh, I think that's a good idea. Let's let's tell them something that is not entirely indicative of what I really think is the truth. Just to like look great.

Erica Adkins 17:55

Yeah. Okay.

Mark Carter 17:56

I think another thing that can really um can really rein reinforce this or foster this, is it it comes a lot through trial. Like it's just as much like wanting mixed things when things are going great as allowing trial to do what trial should do. So there can be times when you go through a major fail. Sure. And and you're just like, I just hate this and I'm so bad that I failed. Okay, good. Be you know, get better. You know, but also like allow the trial to bring you low and embrace humility and even detach you from the world. Yeah, that's good. So like the world system says everything is here. Do this. This is awesome. Everything to be celebrated is here. If you miss this, you miss it. The kingdom value says, dude, I'm staying here anyway. Like I I want to do my best for God, but if that thing, if that makes me care less about planet Earth, I'm gonna put all my eggs in the g in the heaven basket because that's where I'm going.

Erica Adkins 18:58

What are some other maybe faithfulness over popularity ideas, some practical things?

Mark Carter 19:05

I think it it asks you to choose integrity when integrity could be costly. Um so there were some times when we were part of a merger and I could tell the truth, or I could um and it would cost, it would take some history or lose some people if I do it.

Erica Adkins 19:26

Yeah, two churches coming to one. Okay.

Mark Carter 19:28

And I was, or I could just kind of like give the good sounding answer. It wasn't entirely true. Okay. And but it might have kept some people for a little longer, but in my mind it was like maybe we'll keep them forever. There the the willingness to say, I will tell the truth no matter what happens here. That was a big deal.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

Yeah.

Mark Carter 19:49

I think that was a when that happened, that was a win. Okay. I I think it also shows up in faithfulness looks like confessing your sin when you're getting in. We we talked about this recently. When you're when you're getting into something wicked, dude, don't try to protect yourself.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Yeah.

Mark Carter 20:04

Like let get out of the trap by bringing shedding light on it. I'm not saying confess that to the church day one. I'm just saying don't live a hidden life.

Erica Adkins 20:14

Right. Have some trusted advisors who you can bring in it too.

Mark Carter 20:16

Yes. Expose your sin.

Erica Adkins 20:18

Yeah.

Mark Carter 20:19

Because that's what faithfulness is. Yeah. Like that's what you're gonna appreciate later. Even though that's rejecting successism. Yeah. You want to look like the guy or the gal that never makes a mistake. Yeah. That's so dumb.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

Yeah.

Mark Carter 20:30

Like look like the person, rather model that successism isn't your God.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Yep.

Mark Carter 20:34

And I'd rather just have a right heart before God.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Yeah.

Mark Carter 20:37

As David did. David's a great example of this most of the time, where he'd rather just look like an idiot and say, it's my fault, you know, your entire family was murdered. I'm sorry, please stay with us.

Erica Adkins 20:47

Yeah.

Mark Carter 20:47

Um, but he had a right heart before God.

Erica Adkins 20:49

I think one of the things that that we can often do is stay in that, oh man, I just screwed up and I I messed up and this didn't work, or it fell through, or whatever. Um, but a a a good Christian who's like really walking with the Lord sits in that for a moment and then asks the question, what do you want me to learn from this? What character are

Choosing Obedience Over Optics

Erica Adkins 21:11

you wanting to build in me through this? And I think that's that's the faithfulness over popularity. That's right now our culture would say, well, just just dwell in the fact that you suck. Just dwell in the fact that that didn't go well and don't get back up again. Um, or just get back up again and push it off. But no, like that that faithfulness actually looks like sitting with the Lord. Why did this fail? Like, how help me figure out how to do this better next time. Change the character in me. What's going on in my heart, maybe that I compromised or that this didn't work? Where were we building to a scale that we didn't have the foundation to do? Yeah.

Mark Carter 21:50

Um I think that's that's totally it. And it's that desire on the front end of Lord, if I fail, and part of me is going. Going to celebrate that I get to walk more closely to you and not have my confidence in the flesh, which I think leads um into another idea.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Yeah.

Mark Carter 22:10

Which is that successism and like greatnessism is all about how great and successful I am. It's personal, yes. And the Lord is coming along and he's really trying to pull the rug out from under that. And this is the danger if you succeed too much too quickly.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

I personally from my perspective. Yeah.

Mark Carter 22:30

If all you've ever done is succeed, you can subtly believe that it's because you're so doggone awesome and good. And you can miss the fact that no, it's because God was being merciful to you. Yeah. And when you fail, here's the thing you find. You find yourself warm and safe in Jesus' arms, who didn't really love you because you succeeded at anything.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

Yeah.

Mark Carter 22:51

He just delights in you that you're his. That becomes more real when you failed than when you're like, oh, I know that, but I also just crushed it and spiked the ball.

Erica Adkins 23:00

And I think that's the dichotomy between King Saul and King David. King Saul just was like, yeah, I'm great, taller than everybody else. Here we go. I'm awesome. Everything I do turns to roses. And yet he was so confident in his own flesh that the Lord took the kingdom from him. Whereas David came in with a humility of heart and a connectedness with the Lord that really sustained him. And even when he did make those mistakes, he came before the Lord in humility. Some arrogance to begin with, and then eventual humility.

Mark Carter 23:31

And his value was just like, I want the Lord's presence no matter what. Even as he's being chased out of the palace, he's like, Well, look, if this is what God wants me to do, then that's fine. If he brings me back, then he's pleased with me. He wants God's will more than he wants success. That's huge.

Erica Adkins 23:45

That's so good. All right. Confidence in self is a giant liability. It's risky. Um, Mark, any final thoughts?

Mark Carter 23:54

I think one thing that he points out that we didn't really talk about yet. It's interpersonal. It's not just on the larger level what you do in church or in society or in work. It is the this is scary. If you really want to focus on having a right heart before the Lord in a way that's going to cost you, it's when you're honest with people, even though it might hurt them.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Okay, explain that.

Mark Carter 24:22

This example is you've got you've got annual reviews, and you don't want to give an employee the bad news that they're really just they messed that up, or that's not the version that is good enough, or what have you. If you fear people and you're more worried about the appearance of being nice or being godly or whatever, you'll just tell them whatever you gotta tell them, but it's not really true, it doesn't really help the organization, and it doesn't bless the Lord because you didn't testify truthfully. If you fear God,

Telling The Truth With Love

Mark Carter 24:52

you will do it as lovingly as possible. You say, here's the truth. Yeah, here's what it is. I don't want to fear you, I want to fear God.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Yeah.

Mark Carter 24:59

That will actually help you the most.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

Yeah.

Mark Carter 25:01

So that's an example of there's interpersonal integrities that are just as important because it's not just that I want to appear successful to the online world, I want to appear nice and successful and sweet and godly to all the people around me. Yeah. Sometimes I have to disappoint them to honor God. And that that is rejecting the Americanized Jesus who everybody's happy with me.

Erica Adkins 25:23

Yeah.

Mark Carter 25:23

Polls are looking good.

Erica Adkins 25:25

Yeah. Mark, can you think of um maybe an example where I think you already kind of shared with with when we had the merge, that didn't go well. You were tempted to not just be bold and tell the truth. Um, can you share a time maybe where you did lean in with the hard and that that ultimately did end up going well? Like a confrontational moment, perhaps. I think you just did this with me a few weeks ago. If you're not you're not thinking about it. Yeah. I had a thought, but feel free to share it. Well, no, I just I uh we actually talked about this a little bit in the last episode, but just you leaned in. Um, I there was this there was a season in our church and in our relationships where I felt pushed out. Um, and I came to you with like, I don't think I did anything wrong. And you were like, is it perhaps just even your pride? That was the thing that was wrong. And that that question was like a dagger. And you said it lovingly and it was good. And I I don't think I reacted well to it in the moment. I didn't react or like I didn't turn tables or anything. Um, but in sitting with the with the Lord thereafter, like that he was able to like point to my heart and the things, right? Um, but I think if if we're not bold enough to lean into the with the people around us and share the the hard thing, like we're actually never gonna level up in our friendship and in our honor. And and yeah, like the entire organization can't grow because of that too.

Mark Carter 26:55

So I think that's so true. And I think just on a larger level leadership perspective, you lose trust quickly when you're not telling the entire truth.

Erica Adkins 27:04

Yeah.

Mark Carter 27:05

Because there's a lot of people, and the people can tell, like, uh you know what it's like when you have somebody that's kind of a please everybody person.

SPEAKER_00 27:13

Yeah.

Mark Carter 27:13

But when they just they're they're they're sh they're coloring it in such a way that it's gonna get it through the day. Yeah, but the truth is gonna stand the test of time and that thing's gonna show up again.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Yeah.

Mark Carter 27:22

And so when when you have a leader that you're just like, I don't know that they're really always telling me the truth. Sure. That's a hard person to continue to buy into when you when that leader asks them to do something big or hard or scary for God, I'm like, I don't know, man.

Erica Adkins 27:37

Well, and I I think I'm gonna tell on my husband a little bit. So my husband's the worship pastor here at our church. Um, probably seven to ten years back, we we had this decision that everybody was going to come like with their perfected parts at rehearsal on Thursday. They were gonna be ready and they were going to have essentially the song memorized to an extent that they were gonna play to match the recording. Like that was the expectation. And there were a couple of people who consistently didn't come with that. And everybody else on the team saw it and started to wonder is Brandon gonna lean in? Is he gonna say something? Like this was an expectation, we're all meeting it, they're not. Are you gonna do it? And I think as a leader, if you are like if you don't have the confidence to lean in, it loses confidence in the rest of your team for you as a leader, also. So there's the inner personal, but there's also your entire team. Like they're seeing things too. And like it's it's your job as the leader to say it.

Mark Carter 28:36

So I think

Resisting Culture And Closing CTA

Mark Carter 28:37

it's really good. It brings me maybe to a closing thought, which is all this stuff we need Jesus to be able to do. So, in other words, when I'm Brandon and I have to hold somebody's feet to the fire, it's not just that I need to wisely do that. Yeah, it's that I need to go to Jesus and be like, I'm afraid to do this. Yeah. And I need you to like strengthen me to do this. When I've got to go to this woman's house and tell her the sin that she's been in as I'm with a group of people and we're counseling her, but her life is blowing up because she's in this.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Yeah.

Mark Carter 29:10

I can't. Dude, if you can just do that, I mean that's awesome. But there's a lot of decisions that resist the spirit of the world that we say, geez, I need to understand what your will is here, and then I need your grace to be able to do it. Maybe it's let go of this thing. Maybe it's pursue and embrace obscurity rather than being a megastar. Yeah. Whatever it is. It always comes back to whatever God's asking us to do, he's asking us to get it from God.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's good.

Erica Adkins 29:41

All right. I think we've wrapped this one up. Like, let's let's keep resisting the culture around us and embracing the culture of the kingdom, which is being greater so that we can increase. Or being lesser so that we can increase. But goodness.

Mark Carter 29:55

That sounds good. Hey guys, um, let us know what you think. Man, are you finding places where the spirit of the world, the spirit of greatness is really coming against you? Put that in the comments or email us. Let us know how this is hitting. And uh, we'll see you next time. Bye. All right, everybody. Thank you so much for tuning in today. Hey, if this was helpful, would you consider liking and sharing, putting it places where other people who need this kind of content are going to find it? Also, you may know that we have a lot of other places you can find our stuff TikTok, Instagram, all the things. So go ahead and check those out in places where you're going to be anyway. And don't forget to lead strong today.