Why High-Value Women Haven't Met Their Mr. McDreamy

We all know you’re THAT girl, so why isn’t the relationship part clicking?

I sat down with Dating coach Joel Monteleone, founder of Hot Takes Hot Dates, who aims to challenge you on some things you think you know, and maybe some things you believe about yourself. 

This is the conversation your girl group should be having but isn't. Tune in for the hard truths to get your dating life on track!

We chat:

• Why men need women more than women need them
• The real reason most high-caliber women are still single (it has nothing to do with the men)
• The sneaky mindset trap that's quietly blocking your relationship before it even starts
• How your perfect partner “checklist” is the exact thing keeping him away from you.
• Why men don't approach women (it's not fear of rejection)
• The most expensive dating lie you’re telling yourself
• Why situationships are a thing and what it says about you

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https://lesliejacksonwellness.com/

CONNECT WITH JOEL

https://joelmonteleone.com/ 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

You're listening to Becoming Her, the show for ambitious women who want more for their health, purpose, and life. Every week, we're diving into real conversations with women who are building impact, healing, and creating lives they're excited to wake up to. In my world, it's about becoming the strongest, boldest, and brightest version of you. I'm Leslie Jackson, your four-time certified functional nutritionist and integrative health practitioner. And if you're ready for the stories, strategies, and truth that actually uplevel your life, you're in the right place. There's a conversation that I've been having more and more lately, especially with high-achieving self-aware women. And it sounds something like this. I don't understand why dating feels so hard. When I know I would be a top-tier wife. Because these are women who have done the work. They've built the career, the lifestyle, the standards. They're intentional and emotionally intelligent. And yet, when it comes to dating, something still isn't clicking. Not for lack of effort, not for lack of options, but for lack of clarity around what actually moves the needle. So today we're getting into a conversation that might challenge you a little bit, but will also give you a much more honest lens on what's really happening in modern dating. I'm joined by Joel Montellioni, dating and relationship coach, event host, and founder of Hot Takes Hot Dates, where he's helping people get off the apps and back into real in-person connection. What I appreciate about Joel's perspective is that he's not just talking theory, he's watching this play out in real time. So in this episode, we're diving into things like what women think works in dating that actually backfires, what high-quality men are really paying attention to, and where women might be unintentionally getting in their own way. So if you're someone who knows you want a high-quality relationship and you're ready to approach dating with a little bit more awareness and strategy, this conversation is for you. Let's get into it. Joel, welcome to becoming her. I am so excited to get into this conversation with you.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Thank you. I'm happy to be here. Becoming her. Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

So I was so attracted to having you on the show because I really respect how real and raw you are about what actually, like the intent and the effort that goes into your dating experience. And I know so many top-tier women that I'm like, it is not clocking to me why we have so many great men and so many great women. I also know some incredible, incredible men that are single that literally have a savings account already full, ready to buy a ring. And it's, I just think that there's a lot of barriers today, like in modern dating, that are new waters to, you know, charter through. And I think that it takes some self-reflection. I think that it also becomes, you know, there's some work that you need to do on clarity of like who you're looking for, how you present yourself. And so I'm really excited to get your take on what you're seeing as a dating expert. And I've seen you successfully connect great great men with great women and like great people with great partners. And so I want you to give us the juice.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Yeah. Okay. I'm so happy to be here. And like you said, there are so many amazing single men, so many amazing single women, and they claim that they desire relationship. Yeah. Right. And so, and they're, but they're not in it. And so there is a disconnect somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

There is. Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

And so I'm excited to get into that with you as well because people are gonna hear things that they don't necessarily want to hear.

SPEAKER_03 4:09

Listen.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

Because it's not everyone else's fault. We'll just start there. It's not every other, it's not everyone's that you're dating. They're not all the problem. It just can't be.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

So okay, we're starting there.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

We're starting there.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

I love it. I love it so much.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Okay. So as a high caliber man yourself, what are high-quality men looking for in women, in a partner? And how do women come to the surface and kind of like attract and magnetize a really great man into their life?

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Yeah, I think high-quality men, especially the men that women are attracted to, right? The ones who may be successful in their business or successful in their careers, have a lot on their plate, right? Those high-quality men, when they get home to their relationship, they don't want to have to keep working, right? They don't want to have to fight for leadership. They want peace. Yeah. They want to be supported. Yeah. They want connection and admiration. And so, you know, I think most high-quality men, that's what they desire. They don't want to have to fight for love. And so, yeah, and then I think something that all people want is just more play. You know, I think men and women, they desire play. And like, I think the older people get and the more they're single, they start to lose the playfulness in dating, and it becomes very job interview business. Like we're fucking gonna make sure everything, every box is checked. Yeah. And if it's not, we are out of here.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Oh, wait, I feel like you just called me out because literally in my relationship with my husband, my husband is the adventurer. He is the playful one, and I am the one that like keeps our shit in order. And just over this past weekend, we were doing so much work and getting so much done around the house. And he was like, Oh, I could physically see him getting frustrated because he's like, I just am sick of being productive. He's like, I just want to go out and have some fun. And you know what? I will say that that is low-key so fucking important in a relationship that you have compatible humor. That's something that I've noticed is like major, major key. And for the women that I know are looking for a partner, they are looking for a man that that makes them laugh, that they can have fun with, that they can trust and be led by for sure. But let me push back on you a little bit about like the leadership component. I think that for a woman to trust a man to lead her, there has to be the trust. And the trust has to be built. And women aren't just going to just be submissive and be led just because they're a female and there's a male. So, how do you think men could earn the trust of women to be worthy of leading a really smart, intelligent, hustlin' woman?

SPEAKER_00 7:42

I'm gonna ask you a question. Okay. Why does he have to earn your trust? What did he do to not have the trust in the first place?

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Well, I think that when you're relying on someone to help you make decisions in life and to lead you in life, that's a really vulnerable thing to do. And I think that that level of reliability needs to come with work put in to earn the trust for someone to vulnerably rely on you and for you to lead.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

So it's a chicken and the egg type of thing here, right? Because it's like, oh, in order for you, for me to trust you to lead me, you need to prove that you can lead me. But I'm not gonna let you prove you can lead me until I've trusted you that you can lead. Right. And so there's it all comes down to eventually, hey, no one is gonna like, you're not gonna be able to see that he can lead you if you don't let him lead.

SPEAKER_01 8:48

Give him a chance to lead to you. Give him a chance to lead.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

I think that's what it is. I think that we're afraid. I think women are afraid to because it's a vulnerable, it's a vulnerable place to be, to give that opportunity to be like, okay, I won't make the decision, I'll let you make the decision and see how it goes.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Well, because we've been like women have been told that they to be successful, they need to do it all themselves, right? And like in their careers, in their business, in their lives, like people have optimized men and women to doing everything on their own. And so to say, hey, I'm gonna let you lead me. Well, in order to lead somebody, and I I guess there's a distinction here, right? It's like whether you trust them to lead is one thing. I think the thing is, do you trust that they're lead like where where they're leading you? Right?

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Do you Yeah, where are we going?

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Exactly. Do I trust in your vision? Right. And so it's up to men to enroll women that they're dating in the vision and say, hey, this is where I'm going. Do you want to come along? Versus, hey, I'm gonna tell you, like, I'm just gonna make decisions for you and have you go. It's like, hey, this is the destination. You either hop on this ride or or not, right? It depends, but you get to make that choice. You get to decide if you want to be led in this way and led to this destination. You know, you don't need to necessarily just blindly say, okay, okay, man. Yeah, let's go. Take me wherever you want, right? No, that's that doesn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

Okay, so I feel like that's the part of the conversation that's a little bit blank. It's like, okay, ladies, like if we want to trust a man to lead, okay, let's talk about where we're heading, like what the vision is, what the standards are.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Okay, so And that's up to men to have that vision.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

And to know where they're going. Right. Like that's up to them.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

Do you feel like a lot of men know their vision?

SPEAKER_00 10:50

So the thing about visions, I think people have a vision of where they want to go. It's whether they believe that it's to be possible.

unknown 10:59

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

You know, and like I think, you know, when you think about relationships and families, like I talk to my clients all the time. It's like, hey, what do you want your relationship to look like? What do you want your man to look like? What do you want your life to look like? And their response is, oh, well, I don't want this, I don't want that, I don't want this, I don't want that. And I go, okay. What do you want? And there's a long pause, and they go, you know, I haven't really thought about that. You know, I've just thought about all the things I don't want. Yeah. You know, I've seen all the things, all the all the versions of possible life that other people live and say, oh, I don't want that. I don't want that love. I don't want that type of man. But they don't think about, oh, actually, hey, what do you want to create? Again, personal responsibility. What is it's your role to decide where you want to go, what you're gonna create, and to make it happen. And so I think there is, I think people do know what they want, but they're afraid that one, it's not possible and that two, that they're it's not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

Or like maybe that it like won't be embraced. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:07

Yeah, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Yeah. Okay. So if a woman comes to you, or actually rewind, I would do men work with you as well? Okay. Where are men struggling and dating? Let's start there.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

I want to ask a question to you. Okay. Because this is gonna be really interesting. Okay. You you know a lot of women, right? And I've asked this question to women before. Women, like, they're they're afraid of men, kind of, right? Like, like the safety of men, like they're like, okay, men are kind of scary. Do you think men are more afraid of women or women are more afraid of men?

SPEAKER_01 12:51

I don't know. Like, I think that men are more afraid of women. Was I right? I think so. Men are more afraid of women than women are afraid of men. And this is this is where my mind went in the logic of my response because women are incredibly self-sufficient. And women are very competent in their ability to survive and take care of themselves and even today provide for themselves. I This is gonna be a little dicey. I think that men are not as self-sufficient as women are, and I think that they know that. I think that men know that they need women, and it makes them more fearful.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

Yeah. I mean, I think that women need women more than women need men.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Oh, he said it. Okay, he just said it. All right.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

I mean, I think any man would probably agree.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

And I think any woman would probably agree.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Do I think that they don't need each other? No. I do think that men need women and women need men.

SPEAKER_01 13:59

Oh, I as a woman in a 10-year-long marriage, I have fully agree. I am a more powerful, well-supported woman because I am in marriage. That's why I'm sitting here having this conversation with you, because in my work, I work with a lot of really incredibly highly ambitious, self-sufficient, independent women. And I know that they would be more powerful if they had a really enriching, activating, supportive, loving relationship that holds them together, that they can collapse into when they need to, that someone that their partner can step in and make up for their weaknesses, you know, with their strengths when need be and vice versa. Like I definitely think that the wood women are more powerful when they are supported by a great partner.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Agreed. And the same is true for men. Men are more powerful when they're supported by a great partner.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

100%.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

And the thing about how we view life is like 80%, 80-90% of the thoughts that we have are negative, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:11

And so that's how we're coded.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

When we think about relationships, we don't think about how amazing and how wonderful and how more abundant and incredible and expansive my life could be. We look at relationships and think, oh my God, my life is over. This is gonna suck. She's gonna be a ball and chain, or he's gonna be controlling and I'm gonna fuck it up somehow, right? Everyone thinks they're just gonna fuck up their relationships because, you know, of course they would, because they fuck everything up. But like, that's just not the way life works. If you have a real if you have a mindset, and like that's the most of the work that I do with my clients is mindset, is reef reframing the beliefs that they have about men or women, about what they have, the beliefs they have about themselves, the beliefs they have about the relationships and the future. Because, like you said, you are a perfect example of how much more expansive and beautiful life can be when you're in relationship. And I believe that is true a hundred percent of the time. We are meant to be in relationship.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

I agree.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

Like just we're animals, you know, like, and so anytime someone says, Oh, I don't want to be in a relationship, or I'm not meant to be in a relationship, my belief is that you've given into your limiting beliefs. But your highest self, your most expansive and like positive and powerful self desires relationship.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

I 100% agree. I 100% agree. And and I also believe that a peaceful, loving, joyful relationship is literally like medicine. Like, and I can speak for that from my own personal experience. Like, my husband has healed me, and I have been able to heal because I've been in such a great loving, supportive relationship. So, okay, we talked about what are men struggling with? It sounds like men are scared of women and they're not clear on their vision, and maybe that's like what their biggest challenges are. But on the female side, like what are women struggling with when it comes to finding their partner?

SPEAKER_00 17:26

It all comes down to mindset, okay. Right. And, you know, I'll talk to women all the time and I'll ask them, hey, what is your when I say men, what comes to mind? And they'll tell me, you know, oh, they're trash or there's no good men anymore, they're Peter Pans, they all suck, like all the men, and like they'll just trash them. And I go, why, how then do you want to be in relationship with a man? Because if they're all awful, chances are you're not gonna end up in a relationship with one of them. And so again, it all comes down to mindset and reframing how you think about men, right? If you think all men are trash and you hate men, which I think there's a lot of women and a lot of content out there, and that's like my biggest issue.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

I'm not a man hater and I don't condone it.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

So much man hating content on like very large female-oriented podcasts that are like the most influential female podcasts in the world, and they just hate on men. And then what I find interesting is that usually those women who are hating on the men actually have boyfriends or have husbands, which doesn't make sense. So they're just hating on other men, but not their men, but it just doesn't add up. Um but yeah, I mean, it's like if you have a viewpoint men and you don't like them, yeah, then why is a man ever gonna choose you? Like that doesn't, or a good man. Sure, maybe a dramatic man who likes drama will be like, okay, hey, I'll tame this girl who kind of hates me and like I'll make her love me and I'll create this chaos. And a lot of people thrive in chaos and they don't actually know what a relationship that is grounding and joyful and and abundant looks like. They think a relationship is meant to be crazy. Um but yeah, I mean, like there's so I I've said this on in previous videos that I've posted, but I think that the divide between men and women is probably the most important social issue that we need to address today in this country. I agree. Because 10 to 15 years ago, you know, in politics, when the right and the left started to get very divisive and mean, it got to a point where, you know, the the the fringes were being the loudest and it started to drive the right and the left apart from each other. So much so that like the right and left can't even really have conversations anymore. They don't, they can't even look on the same, like in the same eye level. They can't, they can't see each other for who we are. And I'm starting to see a similar trend with men and women, right? Where we have the incredibly like fringe red pill stuff on the men's side who says all women should be in the kitchen and you know, women should be submissive, and then a lot of men are gravitating towards that message because they think, oh, if all women are this certain way, then yeah, I'm gonna resonate with this. Because it it it points out people's victim story, like why everything isn't working out for them. Oh, I'm gonna blame the woman. Okay, great. Yeah, that that's something that I can get along with. And then the women, similar things, like that fringe where it's like, oh, man hating, all men are a certain way, they're poor, they're broke, they don't, they can't lead. Women are gonna find ways to resonate with, again, why are they single? Oh, it's the man's fault. And so if we don't actually take a breath and realize that men and women actually need each other for not only just the continuation of like society, but for our own personal happiness and own personal joy. Like, if we don't decide to have a conversation together, I fear the same thing is going to happen five, 10 years down the road where men and women can't even really be in the same room together because they just don't like each other that much. So, like, that's my biggest fear. That's like my pessimistic mind that goes, and why I feel so passionate about the work that I'm doing and about how men and women relate to each other, because like There's so there's so much anger and blame happening.

SPEAKER_05 22:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

And at some point we all just gotta like take a chill pill, take a breath, and be like, hey, let's let's let's chat. And so I I'm hoping that my message can support with that because I like to bring things and make it humorous and fun and playful and approachable.

SPEAKER_05 22:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

While also, you know, giving people the feedback and the information that they necessarily don't want to hear. But people don't like that. They want to hear, they want to be able to blame somebody else.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

It's very cowardice, it's very easy, and it focuses on the ego winning versus there being a solution that's being seeked, is what I believe. Um okay. So we're clear on what women are saying they don't want, but what are men and women saying that they do want?

SPEAKER_00 23:03

Everyone claims that they want a relationship.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

What do they want in a woman? What do they want in a man?

SPEAKER_00 23:11

So what people say they want and what they actually want, I think are they not always compatible. Not always in alignment, right? You know, I think men and women both say they want certain qualities in a man or the want or the they want them to have a certain thing, right? Like, oh, I want the man to have a good job, have a good career, and also be able to like be in touch with his emotions and be able to be very vulnerable. And it's like, and like present. It's like, well, if a man is a shark at work and work and career is his life, and you want a guy who's very uh uh ambitious, chances are he's not gonna be super present at home, right? That's just not who he is. He'll give you a good life, you know, he'll give you financial stability and all these things, but like you might need to work with him a little bit to bring out the emotional side of him. He's not gonna have that already.

SPEAKER_05 24:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

Right. Or in the other verse, it's like, I want a man who's really in touch with his emotions, really present. Okay, well, you might get that man, but that man might not make very much money, you know? And so you might need to support him making money. And the same with the same with men to women, right? Men are like, oh, I want a woman who will let me lead, but I also want a woman who's career-oriented. It's like, okay, those that that's just those things just don't happen. Not everyone just has everything. But what you can look at is, hey, do they have the qualities that could lead to that, right? Are they curious? Are they open to doing personal development work? Are they open to, you know, becoming more vulnerable? Are they open to maybe pursuing skills that would make them more money? It's like, I think we look too much around what people have versus who they are. You know, I had a friend of mine, she was dating a guy who was younger, and she kind of wasn't really feeling him because she's like, oh, when I date a guy, I like when I walk into a room, I want him to like own the room. And I want him to like, everyone knows that this guy is like the leader. And I said, Well, this guy's young. He's like 26. I go, when he is 35, 40, yeah, he will be that man.

SPEAKER_05 25:41

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

Right? Because because all the things that she said, he's uh, you know, he's crushing it at work, he'll but like, you know, he's not there yet. But he will be. He is the type of man that will create that. But you gotta understand that he's still young and like he might not have everything, but he is everything.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

Okay, so I'm noticing a trend in that it sounds like people are wanting their potential partner to be in like their final form. And I have talked a lot about this, especially to my friends who are single, about how I personally believe that you definitely do have to believe in someone's potential. And it I really am loving hearing you talk about how, like, okay, like if this is what you want, maybe they're not a 10 in every single category, but like in the categories where they're not a 10 yet, how can you help them be stronger there? Rather than just being like, oh, you're not everything yet. So, like it also sounds like somewhat of like a lack of patience.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

It's a lack of patience, but also just like an unwillingness to co-create and an unwillingness to concede on anything. The way that I I I make I look at it is like, say someone, because we're so efficient by ourselves. We can do everything by ourselves. There's literally nothing that I can't do by myself. If I need some, you know, something hung up on the wall, task grab it. I need a ride, Uber. I need food, DoorDash. I need friends, go online, right? Like I can do it all.

SPEAKER_05 27:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

Right. What I can't do is I can't sleep in a bed with my, I mean, I can, but like with somebody else.

SPEAKER_05 27:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:27

Um, I can't open up vulnerably and with some like a DoorDash driver, right? But what I what I talk about is like what I think people do is they create their life, right? If it's like a puzzle, okay, so they put all the puzzle pieces together and there's one piece left, which is a relationship. And they go, oh, okay, I need to find that exact piece. That exact piece that fits in perfectly with this entire puzzle that I've already built, right? And until I find that perfect piece, no other piece is going to work, right? Rather than finding somebody and saying, hey, let's build this puzzle together, right? Or taking away a few different other pieces so that any piece could fit in there, right? And so I think when I talk to women, especially my clients, they have this belief it's like, oh, I want to date a man, but I don't want to give up anything. I have all these things at work. I like, I love my social life, I love how much I work out, I love my job, right? Honestly, like I want a man who I can, they want like a situationship where they can just a man that they can call whenever they want some sort of masculine presence, but nothing more than that. And I think the same is true with women or with men, where men are like, I'd rather just have a booty call rather than having someone where I have to be vulnerable with and like, you know, open with. And so that's why situationships, situationships became a thing five years ago, yeah, right? Like they were not even a thing. And now everyone's just like, oh, I'm in a situationship. And it's like, what the fuck is that? You know, it's like the people want connection, but they don't want commitment. And it's just like, damn, it's just silly.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

And that I it just really makes me sad hearing about this. Like again, I know I've said it already multiple times, but being in a 10-year marriage, like the way that it has just made my life so much better. Like, I literally say this to my husband all the time. I cannot imagine my life without you. Like, I can't, I don't even want to. Like, I cannot even imagine how much I would not be where I am right now without my husband. Like that is so sad that we have just gotten acquainted with settling. Like, fuck settling. Like, why do you why do people why do people just want to be by themselves?

SPEAKER_00 30:08

I think it's really important that we talk more about how beautiful it is to be in relationship.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

I agree.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

We talk so much as a society about how shitty it is to be single, or even how amazing it is to be single, or how shitty it is to be in relationship. We don't talk enough about how being in relationship is actually the like the number one lever that you can have in your life.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

It is it amplifies every area of your life.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

Who is going to take care of you? Like, I feel like one blind spot for I guess people is that, like, okay, I'll tell you, we, John and I were in a conversation with a man one time who was single for most of his life, and then he got shot and he was in the hospital, and he realized that no one was there to take care of him. No one cared to be there to take care of him because he also didn't care to step up and to be in a committed relationship with someone. And it's like, okay, so you want the relationship for the bonuses, but when it comes to like having the opportunity to have somebody to be there for you, it's a two-way street, you know? And one of my favorite parts, I guess let me share. One of my favorite parts about being in marriage is that I feel like we are building something. I feel like every day we're asking each other, what do you need? What do you need? What do you need? Like, how can I help you? Like, what's on your mind? What's making you feel heavy? Okay, let's talk through it, let's get through it. And John and I, we did a podcast episode together, and we were sharing how like there's so many things in life that can go left or right that are out of your control, like just completely. And we've gone through that together sickness, job loss, being broke, not knowing what to do next. And it was just like, you know what? At least I got you. Like it's me and you against the world. And that is I I can't, I I don't even want to, I don't even want to think about not being with my husband. Like, truly, it makes me emotional just even thinking about it. And it makes my heart really sad to hear that people aren't registering how valuable and worth it it is to put the work in to find your partner.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Yeah. People are so afraid to get hurt that they're not willing to take the risk in relationship. Yeah, they're protecting themselves from the possibility of having their heart broken, so they choose not to give it away.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

That is so real.

unknown 32:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:58

Yeah. I mean, I went through a really messy breakup when I was at the end of high school. And that shit rocked my world. I was single for, I was single for about three or four years before I met John. And I remember like really for the four for the first like five years of of us being together, one of my greatest fears was us breaking up. Like when I tell you that it was on my mind every day, like my fear, because I had been so traumatized from that other breakup, like it was so like life-shattering and challenging, painful. And I really didn't want to go through it again. And honestly, in my experience, it was like not until we went through shit together and we held it together through the shit was when that fear started, the fear of the breakup, the fear of losing each other really started to lower its volume. And the other thing that I think gives that fear a lot of power is this notion that there is only one person that could ever be the love of your life. And this like notion that, like, okay, if if I am able to find that one person and then like, what if we break up? It's just like this like catastrophizing cycle that I like I've experienced it for myself as well. That I think it does activate that like survival protection, stay safe, stay alone, you know, energy. But I would rather risk going through another heartbreak than to not be in marriage.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

That's the only way that you can build a relationship is by being 100% authentic and vulnerable and open and trusting with this person. Where yeah, there's a possibility for you to have your heart ripped out and destroyed and for it to be so fucking painful, right? And there's also a possibility that it can be better than you ever imagined.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

100%.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

And so focusing more on the possibility and worse, and less on, you know, the fear, like that's that's where it all lives. Like again, it's going back to the same thing that we talked about in the beginning with like your vision, right? It's like people want things, but they don't believe that it's possible. So they play small, they protect themselves. And the same is true in relationship.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

I I see this in my work as well, with women who have dealt with chronic symptoms for decades, and they will resist or postpone working with me or working with anyone who, you know, is proven capable of helping them to heal because not because they lack faith in me, but and not even completely that they lack faith in themselves, but it is the hope that feels dangerous. Like having hope in your situation, like with dating, it's like having hope that a relationship could be fulfilling and last feels dangerous.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

It's uncomfortable. Yeah. It's different, like they've gotten so in your clients or your people you work with, like they've gotten so comfortable in the pain and the suffering that anything outside of that actually feels scary. Right. And I with my clients, I will work with my clients. I said, like, I'll we have a container and retainer. And then if they're not in a relationship, by the end of it, I will work with them for free until they are in a relationship. The relationship of their dreams, not just any relationship, not just like pick someone up off the street. And so if someone comes to me and they say I want to be in a relationship, I go, okay, great. Hey, this is how much it is, uh, how we will while we will work together. And we will not stop working together until you are in that relationship. And then they go, Ah, I don't really know.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

And so then I go, Oh my gosh, it's about them then.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

And so then I look at them and I go, I go, then you don't really want to be in a relationship. And they like, they pause and they go, Oh, whoa. You know, because there's nothing for them to lose, only things for them to gain. So it's actually has nothing to do with their, it's it's all about them.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Oh my gosh. I love that. Yeah, I love that so much. Oh my gosh. Okay. So I also want to talk about these in-person experiences that you host because I've heard such like hot and cold feedback about the abs or not the abs in person. People don't have great social skills. How do you approach women? Women like I've definitely heard a lot of men being really anxious about not knowing how to approach women, uh, because it's like there's a million ways to do it wrong. So how can we let's give the men some tips on like how to approach women in like a well-received way? Because from my perspective, like you're hosting these in-person events and like you're seeing the interactions in person. So, how can they approach a woman in a way that is well received?

SPEAKER_00 38:31

So I just talked to a client about this yesterday. And a lot of my male clients, they're afraid to go and approach women because they're afraid to get rejected. Right? Yes, yes. And what I tell them is you're afraid to get rejected because your intention is you're going up to them because in the end you want to fuck them. You know, it's not that you want to date them, like you want to fuck them, right? And so you're going up and saying with the transaction. Yeah, exactly. It's like, hey, I want to do the things that I need to do so that I can fuck you as soon as possible, right? Which is get your number, take you out to dinner, maybe take you out to another dinner, and maybe a third dinner, but then eventually I'm gonna fuck you, right? And so for men, that doesn't feel good for them. That feels icky. And so they're actually like, I'm actually gonna respect her and not even approach her at all because like he knows his intentions. I know my intentions aren't pure.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

Oh shit, right shit. And so good.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

And so, like, and it whether men say that's not true, it's they're lying. Um, because that's what we all want, you know, in the end. Yeah. Um, and so what I tell men to do is your intention gets to be connection.

SPEAKER_05 39:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

You just get to connect with this person. And then if you want to connect more, then you get to connect more and you get to connect more and you get to connect more. But like that is the intention that you get to start with. And when when you have the intention of just connection and take all of the romance off the table, it's actually a lot easier to connect with somebody the same way you connect with a coworker or a family member or a neighbor, right? No sex, like that's just off the table. And like the thing about what men, which always like trips me out, is like men think, oh, I can just ask this girl out and she's just gonna like say yes to go on dates with me without any information on who I am as a person, right? Like, like, sure, there are some men that can walk up and say, hey, I want to take you out, and then woman would be like, Yes, of course, right? That's not most men, right? And I tell that to my male clients, I go, hey, you're you're optimizing for a game that you're not going to win, right? You want to learn how to approach women better at the bars. That is not your place of that you're gonna be successful in. Like it's just not because you're not attractive enough to be to win at the bars. What you but you are attractive are the women who actually want to start a family, who want a man who has a stable job, who has a man that wants to take care of her, who is family oriented. All the things that you are, women find that attractive, but you gotta play on the right field, right? You can't go to a girl who's drinking at a bar and be like, hey, I want to start a family, like I'm a really good guy. She's gonna be like, no, I'm gonna talk to the I'm gonna talk to this guy.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

I have to tell you about this experience me and Gab had the other day. We went to an establishment and we were out, neither one of us drink. But um, obviously, her and I are really beautiful women, and we clearly work out and take care of ourselves and have very high standards for ourselves. I have to be honest that like I was really surprised. These two younger guys walked up to us, and they had some corny like game that they wanted us to play, and they they approached us, and I was just like, You don't take care of yourself. And I can see that.

SPEAKER_00 42:07

You said that to them. No, they said that to you?

SPEAKER_01 42:09

No, nobody said this.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

Oh, okay, but in my head, you were thinking about that, you were thinking about them. Yes, they don't take care of themselves. Yes. Got it, got it, got it, okay.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

I clearly put in hella fucking work.

SPEAKER_00 42:20

Hella work to take care of myself. Then you are out that night.

SPEAKER_01 42:26

Period. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:27

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:28

Exactly. I we put in so much work on a day-to-day basis, very disciplined. We put in the work, and you're gonna walk up to me, and I can clearly see that you have a fucking stain on your t-shirt, and like you like don't take you don't take care of yourself at all. And you're walking up to women that clearly take care of themselves, like you are not in our caliber. So, like, help. I need also for men to clock. Like, if you want to have access to women that are put the fuck together and working the fuck out and taking care of themselves and providing for themselves, you need to rise to the occasion. You need to clock what caliber you're tapping into, or you will get rejected. You will be embarrassed.

SPEAKER_00 43:20

So I have a different viewpoint on this.

SPEAKER_01 43:22

Okay, let's hear it.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

And like, I would never like I don't know the guy, I don't know who he is. Like, I would never tell a man to not take a shot.

SPEAKER_01 43:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

Go for it. Right. Chances are you're not gonna, like, you're gonna get rejected, right? But like, who are like, who are you to determine that I'm not in your caliber? Like, I mean, yeah, you you can decide that, but like I think I am, you know, and and maybe By what standards though? Because you can see By the way that I just live my life, right? But like, I guess there's and if I get If I get rejected, yeah, then this is this is the this is the difference, right? If I get it rejected by 30 women who I go after, who I am attracted to, who I think are are really well put together, and I get rejected by all 30 of them, that's not, oh, all 30 of those women are bitches or like gold diggers, whatever. You can say, oh, hey, that's feedback. That's feedback that 30 women were not interested in me. Okay, great. If it was one woman who says, I'm not interested, okay, maybe that's her problem. Yeah. That doesn't say make maybe that's just her. Two, okay, maybe that's just uh bad luck. But if it's like every girl that you're going over after is rejecting you, then it's time to look in the mirror and that's feedback for you. Right. And so it really determines on, hey, what do you do with that information, right? Do I, do I say, oh, do I blame you for your for who you are and how you perceive me? Or do I take the feedback that everyone is seeing me in a certain way? And it is my personal responsibility. And I also have the power to change that if I want to.

SPEAKER_05 45:11

Right.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

Right? So if I want the type of woman that you and Gabby are, then maybe I need to elevate things in my life, right? If I don't, then go after some other people, right? But like it all comes down to how you perceive the rejection, how you perceive the feedback and what you do with it. I think a lot of men get rejected and then they just blame the woman that it's their fault.

SPEAKER_01 45:35

Oh, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 45:35

Yeah. Versus saying, oh, hey, I my one of my coaches has this saying it's like, if one person calls you an ass, like, okay, that's that's whatever. If 15 people call you an ass, like buy a saddle, you know, because buy a saddle. Because yeah, it's you're like if that many people have the same experience of you, it's something to look at. If one person has an experience of you, like that could be your problem, not mine. But if everyone continues to give you the same feedback, yeah, you gotta, you it's your responsibility to either change it or accept it.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

Yeah, and like on the other side of that, like we were kind to these men, like very kind. We hosted a little bit of back and forth with them. And I didn't make neither one of us made them feel like they were idiots for walking up to us. I don't condone that. I think that's wrong. But I do think that we need to get honest with ourselves about like, if I want this type of woman, then I need to rise to the occasion to be this type of man.

SPEAKER_00 46:41

Yeah. I mean, I agree. I agree.

SPEAKER_01 46:44

Yeah, I agree. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 46:47

I feel a butt coming on. There is a little bit of it. And I think what's challenging, right, is that we have more and like and I'm probably gonna get shit for this, but whatever. We have more and more women rising to levels of success that we've ever had, right? And so it requires men to potentially rise to a level on a collective scale that they've never risen to before. You know, like women were like, oh, I want this man. It's like, well, hey, there might not, there might, we don't really know who that man is.

SPEAKER_01 47:32

Yeah, okay. So let me let me give you some more context. I'm not talking about financially. Like when my husband and I met, both broke, but we knew that we had potential in one another, but he took care of himself. Like he was in great shape. He his lifestyle, the way that he lived, the way that he dressed, he had style, he cared about his presentation. That is was like base number one in his compatibility with me. And I don't think that women, I don't think that it's unless you're a woman that's already making millions, I don't think that it is appropriate for you to make it a requirement for your partner to be a millionaire. That's my personal belief. You can hate on it if you want to, but that's what I believe. Unless you're making that kind of money, you can't make it a prerequisite. So let that be said. But I, from a baseline perspective, think that from a health perspective, that and that's where my mind goes. Like I want someone that takes care of themselves because I take care of myself. And I think when someone takes care of themselves, that is a representation of their self-respect, their self-discipline, their commitment. That would be a green signal in I would trust this man to lead me because he is leading himself. He is taking care of himself. I also care about our presentation and how we present ourselves. So yeah, I am not interested in somebody that has no style and doesn't give a shit about how he presents himself.

SPEAKER_03 49:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:06

So that's what I'm saying in terms of like, if you are a man that wants to be with a woman who is in great fucking shape and she looks beautiful and amazing and she has incredible style, and you're rolling up like overweight and clearly not taking care of yourself at all, and you got a drink in your hand, and you got some busted t-shirt on, like the compatibility is not there.

SPEAKER_03 49:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:30

And transparently, it's almost feeling a little bit disrespectful.

SPEAKER_00 49:34

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:36

That's how it feels.

SPEAKER_00 49:37

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 49:38

Yeah. So this is some data for you to collect.

SPEAKER_00 49:41

This is interesting, right? Because I'd also be interested in what if their intention was connection? What if they didn't want to date you? What if they didn't want to sleep with you?

SPEAKER_05 49:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:58

What if they were just like, oh, hey, here's some two women that are cute for sure. They look great. And they're by themselves. There's two of us. Let's go with connect with them. And I'm not saying that's what they did. I'm not saying, but like, there are a lot of assumptions on your on your end.

SPEAKER_01 50:14

There is.

SPEAKER_00 50:15

That they were trying something. It's like, oh, how dare they even come up to us looking like that? It's like, well, what if they just wanted to have like they want to connect, right?

SPEAKER_01 50:25

And I think that there is a I think that there is a way to make that clear. It was made very clear in their delivery what their intent was. Yes, yes. And that was giving disrespectful.

SPEAKER_04 50:38

I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 50:39

But if they were just wanting to be friends or just to have a first of all, if you want to be friends with me and the intent is connection, you're still gotta be, you still gotta work out. I mean, no, I'm kidding. Um, no, that's not where I was going. But walk up to me and ask me a question about myself. Be curious about me. Like, start a genuine conversation. Don't come up to me with some corny ass joke that's supposed to be some pickup line. Like, what the fuck? What the hell? We were both like baffled.

SPEAKER_05 51:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:27

So I think that if your intent is to actually come up to a woman and have connection and just like get to know her without her feeling this pressure of like, I'm about to ask you out, um chill.

unknown 51:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:45

First of all, chill, relax a little bit and come up with curiosity, not with a pickup line or some pickup joke that I'm supposed to get on board with.

SPEAKER_04 51:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:55

From my personal experience, yeah. That's that would be my advice.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

Yeah. I if you if you want to be in a relationship, right? There's a difference between if people want, if you want to just sleep with somebody, like go to a bar, hit on a girl at the bar, and like best of luck to you, right? But the people that I coach, the people that I work with, they all desire a relationship.

SPEAKER_01 52:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00 52:18

Right. And so I tell them, don't go to the bars or don't try and find your girlfriend or boyfriend at a bar. That's just probably not in alignment with what you're looking for based on what you've shared with me.

SPEAKER_01 52:29

I totally agree. I completely I've heard you say that before, and I'm like, finally, somebody is saying it. Yeah. Like, I don't drink. Like I work, work out, have fun with my husband and like go places and adventure. If I were single, you wouldn't be meeting me at a bar.

SPEAKER_00 52:48

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 52:49

I loved the content piece that you made the other day about like you graded, I think, the different like locations. I was like, ah.

SPEAKER_00 52:56

No, the Gen Z thing that I was like, I don't even know what an S tier? What the fuck is S tier? I didn't know what an S tier means. I don't know what this means. My team was like, just trust me. I'm like, all right, it's S tier. What is that?

SPEAKER_01 53:07

Okay, so what were the locations? That was like bar.

SPEAKER_00 53:11

Oh, it was like nightclub, bar, work. Yeah. Um God, I can't remember. But I think what I tell people to do is like I tell them to date their friends.

SPEAKER_01 53:27

I agree with that. Oh my gosh, I agree with that so much. Yeah. Because as a woman in a marriage, we are friends before anything else.

SPEAKER_00 53:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:37

I I made a video about dating our friends, and everyone that I have in my life who are in relationships who met their partners 15 years, 10 years, and more, they're like, oh yeah, we started as friends.

SPEAKER_05 53:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 53:48

We started as friends. We started as friends, right? And like at some point in the world, we said, Oh, we're not allowed to date our friends because, like, oh, we're gonna ruin our friendship. It's like, what the fuck? Like, the friendship's already ruined if there's any desire to be have sex with us. Yeah. You know, like there's not, it's not a friendship anymore, right? There's actually a signal from the universe saying that there's actually something more available for you here that you desire. Yes. And you're saying, oh, actually, no, I don't want to explore that. I'm gonna go date a random fucking stranger on a dating app and see how that goes, right? When the universe is like pushing you in this direction of like, hey, there's this person, you guys get along, you feel safe with them, you feel authentic with them, you have similar interests, yeah, you love being around them.

SPEAKER_04 54:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:32

Oh, but I'm afraid to ruin the friendship. So I'm just not gonna explore it. And it's just like, what the fuck are you talking about? You know, when people, especially in this city, everyone is around so many people all the time. Yeah. There's so many communities. You just had Gabby on, you know, talking about community. There's so many opportunities to meet people in real life. And for some reason, people are the same, same reason why they don't take risks in relationship. They're so afraid of it going wrong.

SPEAKER_01 55:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 55:03

That they don't take the risk versus it going right. And I tell this to people all the time. There's people at my gym who've dated and they've broken up. And I are my gym's like a community gym, like everyone knows each other, but they're all hot and ripped. You know, they all have similar interests and they're sexy and they're strong. And I'm like, why don't you all just fuck each other? You know? And they go, Oh, well, we're not gonna do it because that couple they dated each other and they broke up, and now it's weird. And I go, is it really that weird? And so I pull them aside, the couple, I go, is it that weird between you two? They go, well, it's a little awkward. I go, yeah, but you still come to the gym. It's not like you guys can't be in the same room. Right. They go, Yeah, I mean, it's fine. It's not that like I'd rather they not be here.

SPEAKER_04 55:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:48

And then I go, okay, if you had the opportunity to do it again, would you do it again? And they both unequivocally say, Of course we would. They would they would date again and break up because the dating was good and it was worth the awkwardness now, right? And that's what I talk to people all the time, where they go, hey, if you ask somebody, would they do this thing again, given exactly what happened? They would usually say yes.

SPEAKER_01 56:16

Yeah, and I also feel like at this point in our lives, like 30, 40, like breakups don't have to be so nasty anymore, too. Like, they don't have to be the end of the world. Like my high school breakup that was ridiculously traumatic and dramatic. Like I like I really feel like one thing that actually stood out to me about John was that I felt like he was so emotionally sound that even if something went south with us, I would still be able to trust that he would treat me with respect. We would be able to have cordial conversation. And like there is a trust that both of us would be able to handle it amicably. Totally. So, like this catastrophizing in our mind about not going to take the risk because the absolute worst thing in the world is going to happen. Like the fear behind that is delusion.

SPEAKER_00 57:12

Delusion. And it's a protective mechanism. Yeah. Right? It's just protective. It's and and and a lot of people, like this is the I I have a post coming up. The most dangerous person in dating is your friend that validates your victim story.

SPEAKER_01 57:28

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 57:29

And so if you have a friend saying, if like, oh, I want to date this person, I'm afraid it's gonna go wrong. And your friend goes, Oh, yeah, you probably shouldn't date him because like, what if it goes wrong? They're gotta go. They gotta go. Right. If someone says, Oh, I'm afraid it's gonna go wrong, I look at them, I go, I know both of you. This isn't gonna like the worst case. What the, what are we talking about?

SPEAKER_01 57:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:46

And then they maybe, this happened today, actually, with a client. And they were talking about how a past breakup, like, oh, I had a really nasty breakup when I was in my, you know, mid-20s, like same with you, like high school. I go, okay, do you think if you were to break up today, it would be different because you're a different person, right?

SPEAKER_01 58:05

You're 10 years more mature.

SPEAKER_00 58:06

10 years more mature. So either you're 10 more years more mature or you're not 10 years more mature, right?

SPEAKER_01 58:11

Which one is not everyone matures with age.

SPEAKER_00 58:14

But that's the thing, is the people tell me, oh, I've done so much self-development work. It's like, okay, well, then if you have, then you're gonna create something different. So you're either you either did or you didn't. You tell me. And they go, well, I did. Okay, then great. You're gonna have a different outcome. Can you trust that? And they're like, yes, okay. I'm like, great, then take the risk. You know, go for it.

SPEAKER_01 58:32

Oh my gosh. I feel like I could literally sit here and talk to you about this word. I feel like both of us are full of like strong hot takes. And I love like the conversation though, because I I really respect you and I really do feel like I can be completely honest with you about like my perspective about the dating world and who I would be if I were single and how I would, you know, post it. But um, I am just so grateful that there is a you that is doing this work because I also am fearing seeing the direction that we're heading in and the polarization, the man-hating, the fear, the choosing to settle for aloneness or situationships. And I just want to shout it from the rooftops that like marriage makes you more powerful. You will not always be strong, and you need someone to be there for you when you feel weak. And I'm just so grateful for your work. I think you're fucking brilliant. And I'm so glad that you're so committed to this. And I was really excited to put your brilliance on the mic and had to have you on today. So thank you so much for coming. And I think we are probably gonna have some more to talk about later.

SPEAKER_00 59:51

I would love to come back. Thank you so much for having this conversation. And of course, it I mean, it's so important. And I think there's conversation that has to happen with both men and women. And, you know, I think there's I think the women are having the conversation and they might not necessarily be listening. The men aren't having the conversation at all. Right. And so that's the difference.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:17

Well, I also think that men aren't as biological clock pressured.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:23

Totally. So they're they aren't, they aren't at all. They aren't less or more, they're just not at all. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:29

Yeah. So if men want to be in a family, if they want to build and have build a legacy and have partnership, I'm gonna be the first one to tell you, you need to put some fucking fire under your ass because women, like, I am literally seeing women do like sperm donation because they're sick of waiting around for men to get their shit together and to prioritize being in a committed relationship.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:00

Women are badass, they're the most badass.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:02

They're like, you know what?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:03

And I like I I I want women to know that I think that they are incredibly badass. And they and they can they can do it all by themselves. And also, I they don't have to. And so And men and men, they get to become the men that women can trust, right? And like that comes down to how they show up in a room, how they treat people, how they treat themselves. Like, if we're paying attention to that, they're for sure a hundred percent everything, everything, right? And it's so interesting. I have so many men come to me and they're like, Joel, how do you have so many female friends? I'm like, what they're I just treat them like humans, I connect with them, you know, like they trust me because I see them as equal. I see them as friends and peers and colleagues. I don't see them as just someone that I can or cannot have sex with.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:13

Oh my gosh, that needed to be said. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:18

I think that I think that they need to set that down. And like, what is it? Why is that so fucking important?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:27

Like, I mean, men are this horny.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:28

Yeah, I know, I know, but I think it's more about ego. I think it's more about like, oh, I bagged her, oh, I bagged her, I bagged her. Honestly, that's not fucking impressive. What's impressive is when a woman chooses you and wants to stay with you, and then you have the audacity to be the man that she trusts to stay with. It's impressive when a woman wants to commit to you. It is not impressive when a woman will have sex with you. It's not impressive. It's not impressive, not a flex.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:59

No, no, yeah. It's I think men, you get to get clear on what you want your life to look like and take personal responsibility and creating it, and then finding a partner who is enrolled in that vision.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:17

Well said. And period.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:21

Period. S tier.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:24

Joel, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:26

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:27

Absolute pleasure having you on. And I'm so excited to see the work that you do.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:31

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:33

If you love this episode, share it with a friend and leave a quick review. And if you want to go deeper, everything you need, resources, programs, and ways to connect is in the show notes. And don't just say this episode. Pick one thing, apply it today, and let it compound. I'll see you next time on Becoming Member.