Hello, everybody. Welcome back to I'll read what she's reading. I'm Reggie. I'm Michaela. And I'm Kennedy. And today we have a very, very special guest. This is somebody that you've heard us talk about on the podcast so many times. She is the author of one of our favorite books, The Other Side of Now. Welcome, Paige Harbison.
unknownHi.
SPEAKER_03Thank you for having me. I'm so excited.
SPEAKER_00This is so fun for us. I feel like we've just been talking about you nonstop since The Other Side of Now. Yeah. And so. And you have a new book coming out the 21st of July, Destination Funeral. It's so good. I just finished it last night. Oh yeah. It's amazing. So yeah, it's so fun to have you here after how much we've just like raved about you on the podcast.
SPEAKER_01I feel like our listeners, we we talk about you like you're one of our friends. We're just like, we love you so much.
SPEAKER_03I am one of your friends. You just haven't met me yet. Yes.
SPEAKER_01And so now I feel like full circle moment. Our followers should definitely know about you because we could talk about you 24-7. So sweet.
SPEAKER_03I'm just I the feeling is very mutual. I've I'm like just the parasocial relationship I have with you guys is equal, so it's good.
SPEAKER_00Oh, we love to hear that. Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_01Well, we thought we would start off with a little icebreaker just to kind of get some things moving. See your answers to some of these questions. They're not really important questions, but I don't know. They might be. So we're gonna put them important. Yes.
SPEAKER_00We're gonna play a little this or that. Okay. Are you ready? Okay, starting off with coffee or matcha?
SPEAKER_03Matcha.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_03I worked at Starbucks when I was 13 years old, and I worked the entire time I was a teenager all the way till I went to college. And I just maxed my nervous system out on espresso a long time ago. I can't. It makes me sick and it makes me tired. Matcha, I love.
SPEAKER_01Ooh, love that. I feel like the key with matcha is having a good combo with it. Like I can't drink matcha straight. It has to have some sort of other flavor to it. But yeah.
SPEAKER_03I'm a baby. I want a vanilla bean. I like one is sugary. I want and when I was at Starbucks, my go-to was a vanilla soy chai and a vanilla matcha with like non-fat milk. That was just like my go-to. I want that.
SPEAKER_01Good answer. I just had one the other day in California. It was like a mango matcha. Really good.
SPEAKER_03LA is obsessed with matcha with cloud cream right now. Like Alfred Coffee did does this cloud cream thing, and now everybody's doing it, and like General Foods is selling like cold cream, and it's just like melted whipped cream, but it is so good. It is so good. It's worth the hype.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it is. All right, TikTok or Instagram?
SPEAKER_03Instagram. TikTok is a black hole. I tick tock is like I I love it and I hate it, and I'm kind of a post and ghost on TikTok. And Instagram likes me better, so I have to like get better.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03If you don't have a answer, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Ebook or physical book?
SPEAKER_03Physical book.
SPEAKER_00Do you own an ebook at all? Like an e-book?
SPEAKER_03I do. I do, but I forgot I had a Kindle and my mom gave me one for Christmas, and then I was cleaning out a bookshelf and I was like, and it was the exact same color and everything. I was like, it didn't even look familiar to me. I didn't even know I had the Jade Green one. It's good for during the pandemic. I lived, um, I moved with my whole family to Palm Springs. We had a pool, like we split rent. The government was giving us all this bank money. And so we were paying, we had a great pool and a hot tub and everything. And I floated on the pool and ruined all my Sally Rooney books. Like I ruined every book I was reading, and I got a kindle, a waterproof kindle during that period of time, which I don't know what happened to that one. This one's different. And and um, that was like that was great. The only problem was that it would overheat because it was Palm Springs. Oh, yeah. But so they I I was like, I was either the glue was gonna melt or the the machine itself was gonna just bake. So, but it has its moments and it it's good for certain times, but yeah, I like I like audiobook and I like physical book.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, same, same. Well, one of our questions is audiobooks or podcasts.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so that I can't answer that because I go through phases. Thanks for asking. No, um, I can't because I go through such incredibly distinct phases where I'm either listening to the most brutal true crime, or I am listening to like off-menu and conan, and I'm listening to like comedy podcasts, or I am listening to audiobooks. And whenever I am in the phase of one of them, I'm like, why would I ever have listened to the other one? How do I? I can't even imagine listening to that. And then a day will turn over, and I'm just like, and now I'm back to true crime. So it's just, but I am I have headphones in all the time. I'm like a little ADHD. I'm very like, I have to do all the laundry and the whole house and maybe the whole neighborhood before I can write. So it's like I do a lot of tasks. And yesterday I walked seven miles around my house cleaning my house. My house is not big. It is not seven miles big. I walked seven miles and 15,000 steps cleaning and I listened to like eight podcasts episodes.
SPEAKER_00I love it. That sounds like me.
SPEAKER_03Like, what podcast are you currently listening to right now? Right now, I'm deep in morbid, which I put off for a long time. I was very into red-handed. I usually like with true crime, I like like a deep dive where it's like in your own backyard, um, is one of my favorite deep dive true crime podcasts of all time. Um, and Bone Valley. But then red-handed is my favorite like parasocial relationship. Two best friends talking about true crime, and I put off morbid and I don't know why. And then I finally got into it, and now I'm so hooked, and I'm on their listeners' tales, which are when they're like, I like their banter when they're laughing more than when they're being like super dour and being like super respectful. So I prefer when they're laughing. So I've I've been just housing the listeners' tales, and I'm currently on an episode about New Orleans, which is great because my next book is set in New Orleans.
SPEAKER_01So oh my gosh, you just gave us this is kind of like off topic, but would you ever write like a true crime book?
SPEAKER_03I would just think that I like I don't know if people would necessarily consider my books aren't exactly just straight humor, but I think humor and horror are the same. I mean, you'll hear a lot of comedians talk about that, or like filmmakers how like comedy timing and horror timing, like they're a very specific beat. Yeah. Like I want to write a horror. I wrote one that kind of is a horror, but it doesn't have I wrote it a long time ago, and I could send you the PDF if you want it. But by all means, it is fully unpublished, but um it's uh it doesn't have that much humor, and I wrote it like seven years ago, so I'm a much better writer now. But uh I if I were to do horror now, I would want it to have some comedy too. Like sh um Ready or Not is one of my favorite, like scary movies. Yeah, good. It has that like it has a big house, it has lore, it has I love it. I would, I think one day I probably will write. I would I want to write straight rom-com. I want to do that somewhere, and I want to do fucking horror.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You want to know what's crazy? We are not horror readers, but I would read a horror book by you. Yeah, you would convert me.
SPEAKER_03I think that also I'm big on write what you don't read. And I don't really read magical realism. I don't when I wrote YA, which we'll probably get to, I didn't read YA. It's like I don't really read horror either, but I love, I love feeling something and I love just like super creepy, icky. Like I just heard this one ghost story on one of it, which is like people, whenever they just kept their glasses, like if they had a glass, it wouldn't like it would just vanish. It would just like like eventually enough people would not be looking at it and then it would go away. And then eventually they found them all in the attic.
SPEAKER_04What?
SPEAKER_03Hello, I'm like, please, what is that? And I will I love that weird feeling. So I feel like it would be so fun to just like get in that weird headspace. And my next one does have some creepier elements, so because New Orleans, right?
SPEAKER_01I can't wait for that. Oh my gosh. You've already given us so much. Because we were gonna be like, what's your next project? You've already like told us. I know. I'm stuck. I go in a thousand directions at once. Yeah, we are. Let's be honest. All right.
SPEAKER_00I guess going back to the oh yeah, we'll we'll just give you a few more. Um I love them.
SPEAKER_01I love them.
SPEAKER_00Friends or The Office?
SPEAKER_03Oh, you know, I loved The Office and Parks and Rec and all those, like, you know, I loved all those comedies. I I don't think The Office has much rewatchability for me as Friends does. I just rewatched all of Friends recently. The Office is like, I really just don't want to these days, I don't want to spend time in one place. And I want it to be a really nice place to be. And The Office is one of the funniest shows that has ever been created. But Friends is just like more fun. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Good answer. Um, Sabrina Carpenter or Olivia Rodrigo.
SPEAKER_03Oh God, Sabrina Carpenter. I can't stand Olivia Rodrigo. Really? I'm sorry. I'm gonna lie on that. She, it's like, bless her heart. She seems cool and fun, like a fun person to know. But she that music is just like I never I want, I don't want the in my feel. I've never been that girl. I was never like the millennial with the like emo and the like sad girl music. My sad girl music, yeah. My sad girl music is Lana Del Rey. That is my like that's my when I go to like I just want melodrama, that's where I go. I don't go to that. But Sabrina Carpenter, I love that little bitch. She is so funny. She's she's an icon. The man child video and the please please please video. Oh my god, with Barry Keen. Yeah, she's she is hilarious. I love her. Yeah, she is so genius. I'm obsessed with her.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, her comedic timing on everything is just like top notch.
SPEAKER_03Oh my god, she's giving Ariana Grande a run for her money.
SPEAKER_01Oh, for sure.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. As for pop stars who are secretly hilarious.
SPEAKER_00Uh, book first or movie first?
SPEAKER_03Uh, I I have the classic want to read the book first, but sometimes I can't tell if it's just hype, like The Housemaid. I was like, do I want to read this first or do I just want to watch it? And then I watched it and I was like, I don't need to read it. So sometimes I watch it and I do that. But Project Hail Mary, I was like, I should really read it first. But I was like, I was dragging my feet because like space. And then I watched it and I was like we have Vespas. So we we we drove to the Chinese theater in Hollywood and we saw Project Hail Mary and IMAX, and I was like, what is this gonna be interstellar gonna be? Like, I don't need it the way home. I was weeping because I love Rocky so much, and I was just crying, and I it is a very funny place to sob, is on the back of a vest book. Hair flying in the just so dramatic.
SPEAKER_01I love it.
SPEAKER_03I couldn't, oh my god, and I came home and I I listened to Project Hail Mary immediately read it. I loved it so much. So sometimes it's just like I want to spend more time in that place, and I I think normal people was was the last time that I was like, I'm so glad I read it first. It's almost identical. That show is so true to the book, but I I love both, but I I would like to read it first and then be like, I want to see it come to life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I still haven't made it to normal people yet, the show or the book. Lucky.
SPEAKER_03I know it is like it's a good okay. When you you read normal people or watch normal people when you're like, it's the summer and I want to yearn. It's like it's it's not it's not a beach read in that it's like gonna take you and it's gonna be funny and it's gonna be like these things, but oh that I I am not I her other books I've had harder time getting into, but like normal people is just it is I call it my right geist, like the things that just like I don't even have to like something for it to be in my right geist or I'm just like it is it is inspiring to me. I pull from it, I talk with my family and the people that I like brainstorm with about these little elements. It's up there. I just it's funny.
SPEAKER_01Love that. Well, I'm moving it up in my TBR and my watch list.
SPEAKER_03Okay, text me after you read it.
SPEAKER_01Okay, I feel like this is a good kind of transition because you kind of talked about like, you know, Sally Rooney, maybe she's an inspiration to you. Um basically kind of tell us like how did you get your start as an author? How do you find inspiration? And I know both of those are very loaded questions, but just tell us about our journey your journey as an author up to this point.
SPEAKER_03I yeah, I have a weird journey because I got published when I was 19 years old. And I, like I said, I didn't really read YA, but I was a YA. And I was uh I had worked at Starbucks since I was 13. I took a year off between high school and college, and I kept working. I got offered the assistant general manager job at 18 because I was like, I was in that job. Like if I I wish that I almost sometimes I wish I didn't have a creative streak because I would be an absolute corporate shark. Like I was so good if something wasn't personal to me. I had such like I had read every single encyclopedic book that they had behind the counter. I was a copymaster, I had my black apron, I had every pin. I was such a little into it. And they offered me like AGM and I was like, oh my god, $40,000 a year. And then I was like, no, I should go to college. And my dad like really wanted me to go to college. And then in between the summer, between freshman and sophomore year, I just wrote this book. I just wrote this book called Here Lies Bridget. And it was about a girl who, a mean girl, who got in a car accident and woke up in lim in limbo with the five people she's wronged the most. Okay, she has to walk a mile in their shoes, basically. She's like in their head having their thoughts and her thoughts, seeing herself from their perspective. And I sold it by October. Like I wrote it in June and I sold it by October, which was crazy. Um and my mom is an author. She writes, she wrote what at the time was called Chiclet. She wrote Shoe Addicts Anonymous, Beth Harbison. Um, she and she so I had a connection to an agent, but it wasn't, so I mean, I'm an epo baby, but it was like, it was more like the thing is, is like they wouldn't have represented me if they didn't like the book. The book was a great little high concept book, and I think it probably was like a fun add-on that I was young. Um, but yeah, she basically what it did was give me something that a lot of people don't have that I don't pretend not to have had, which was an opportunity to speak human to human to an agent. Like I already knew Annalise, who was my agent for a long time. I already knew her, and we were just like at my grandmother's house, and everyone was drinking champagne, and my mom was printing out the book for her. She was like, You have to read it, you have to read it, it's really great. And my mom is like not a stage mom, she's like much more likely to cringe. So she was printing it out, and Annalise read it on the train, and then they wanted to represent me. So it didn't guarantee anything was gonna happen with it, and I was very lucky to like have that, and that's why it's not about really being an epo baby, it's about having as many conversations with as many human beings as you can because all you need you you might be a conversation away from them really like actually being interested in you. But so that was how I became a writer. I wrote three books that were YA. Uh, I didn't think it was a different time, I didn't think anything about like sales or numbers or anything. I go back and I look and like, oh my god, I had like no reviews like that. And also they paid me like nothing. But I mean, it was so cool. And um then basically I spent my 20s. I as soon as I hit like 22, I was like, I'm too old to write YAA, and which probably is proof that I was right because that is what a teenager thinks. Um so I was like, then I became really fixated on like what's the next great novel? Like I have to write it. And I stopped kind of having fun, and I kind of just got like distracted by it needing to mean something. And I was just like in this like, who am I? What is my voice? What is my message gonna be? I got stuck there for a long time. And I one of the things that helped me break me out of it was doing ghostwriting, which I was a bartender. Like I like I worked at Starbucks, I was making non-alcoholic drinks, and then in college I switched to I was fully, fully writing and I was under contract, and then I got out of college and I was bartending, and I was bartending until like two years ago. Um, and I was always doing that on the side. And so ghostwriting helped me because it really got me out of like being too precious with my writing. So I was like, this person's going on, you know, this late night talk show. I should be able to. And it's like I it just kind of got me like less worried, you know, and it's just a if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, you know?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's so cool. I mean, do we want to jump into our ghostwriting question? I'm like so interested in the book. We have so many ghostwritings. Yeah. Um, can you tell us who you have like ghostwritten for? Is that kind of like an NDA thing where you can't share?
SPEAKER_03Most of them are NDA. I can say I've written for three Bravo liberties who all of them are housewives. I want to write for the young bra. I want to write like I'm so obsessed with like Southern Charm, Summer House, Vanderpunt's R.I.P. I want to write one of their books, but I haven't. I've only done some housewives. And um, but I've done other the the one person I can say I I wrote for is uh Melanie Hamrick, who is a ballerina. She's super cool. Both of them are erotic ballet novels. Oh she is McJagger's longtime partner of like a decade. Oh my god so technically McJagger's read my book.
SPEAKER_01I mean that's so cool. Did you have like good experiences for the most part? Or how does that process even work?
SPEAKER_03Well, so Melanie is my dream. I love her so much. I wish everyone was like Melanie. She's so amazing. Um, she's just fun to beat things out with, and she's there's also a lot of freedom and stuff, and we might do something again soon. Um, but uh some other experiences have not been as fun. I usually like them, and then it's just like over time. The problem with ghostwriting is that we I've worked with my mom a lot. My mom and I have done several projects together, and we're doing one right now. I don't think I can say who it is, but um, who's like a huge icon and has been since the 80s. Um, and okay, the the um I'll tell you off camera. Um, but the uh the uh the the problem is people have a hard really hard time seeing themselves, period. Yeah, and like Melanie I was doing fiction for, so it was more like she's like, I want to do something that feels like this. And I'm like, yes, I can give you this like super nasty, you know, these girls in the ballet world. You tell me about the ballet world, I'll bring the yearning. Like, let's put them in all these beautiful cities. Like, that's fiction's much easier to do with people because they're not having to look at the mirror that's being held up. People have a really hard time recognizing their voice. The last housewife um I worked with uh loved her. I'd always been a huge fan of her, and then we got along for a really long time, and then she sort of just stopped, just kind of maybe like the facade, like the mask slipped a little bit, and she just got a little difficult. Um but uh she like most of them have a hard time seeing themselves. It's like if we take verbatim what they want in their what they what they're saying in their transcripts, then they still don't recognize their voice. So kind of the trick of ghostwriting is getting them to getting them to sound like themselves and getting them to like what they hear. The worst problem is not who they are, but it's rich people. Rich people suck. And rich people are just like one one person that I wanted to, that I almost did something with was she, I don't know, she wanted like Jane Austen to be her ghostwriter. Like it was just a wow, like you cannot hear yourself. Like I was writing as fancy as I can, but these little people they just want it to sound so fancy, and they think that they're they're expecting it to just be like this grand prose. And it's just like you want to be likable, and this is who you are. This is like I'm sorry, but this is who you are. You're not like you're not roomy, you know what I mean? Like you're you can't have everything sound so like you know, quotable. And it's just they have a real hard time. And I've kind of like I don't want to ghost write anymore. I'm sick of it, but it's most I think it's mostly doing nonfiction. I would love to do fiction. I would do fiction. I am doing fiction for another like uh reality person I can't name yet, but I again that that I think my name will be on that, but until something is yeah, yeah. But um, yeah, so I think it's the nonfiction that's hard because they hate themselves deep down.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, oh my gosh. That's yeah, well, that's so interesting because I've never like we've talked about this before, like, oh, we knew no there's ghostwriters out there, but we've never and we've had so many questions about it. So it's cool to like peel the curtain back oh yeah and kind of see what that's like. So where were you at in your ghostwriting, you know, timeline of things where you decided to go back into like your own stuff writing your own stuff? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well, I'd been writing along the way, and one of my favorite books that I've ever written is unpublished, and again, just sitting in a drawer. Like I wrote a rom com that is very much based on a true story, but it's like, but I'm not very precious about it. It's just that it like it was inspired by something crazy. It used to be a bartending story that I told this romance that I had, this like long saga with this person, like everybody loved to hear this story because it was, and it'll be like by the end, they were like, oh my god, I'm rooting for you guys to be together so bad, even though I know you just said you're not out of that. Like it was a I loved it, and um, I'm still hoping to do something with that. Um, but I wrote that, I wrote the horror thing I told you about. I wrote um this retelling of Lolita from Lolita's perspective, like set in the 90s. I like did all kinds of stuff. I was always working on my own stuff. Um, but agents only like they don't sell everything. And so it was a it was a matter of me writing something that was the right match for my agent or getting a new agent. I was too scared to leave my agent. Yeah. So I had just finished the one, the rom com, and we were like working on completely disagreeing about something big in it. And then I had the idea. I was sitting on a pool with my mom, and we were kind of brainstorming book ideas, and I was like, What if you got to an Airbnb and it was all your stuff? And that was the idea. And then I told my agent the idea that I had, she's like, put stop every she called me in the like a late night. She's like not a night owl. She called me in the middle of the night and she's like, put everything aside, write that book. And so I wrote the other side of now. So it was like, I was always trying to write my own stuff. It was just a matter of like writing something that they thought felt like they could sell. And I'm allowed to tell an agent, like, I don't care, take it out anyway. But you really want your agent to love. You know, you want them to be like this book. And that was kind of how we got where we got with the other side of now. So that was that was when I finally I'd already done two housewives, and I'd already done I was I think I was I'd done one of the Melanie books by then, but I'd done a bunch of other little stuff too.
SPEAKER_01I think you are such a cool person for so many different reasons. But specifically for like your author journey, I think what's so cool is the fact that you've written so many different things and you're not tied to one specific genre. So, like reading the other side of now, I feel like if people ask me what genre it is, I can't exactly pinpoint it because it has so many different feels. Like it's funny yet heartfelt. Like, I cried, there's yearning, there's magical realism, there's travel. You had the best like pop culture references. Like it literally is just a mashup of everything I love about being a reader. And after speaking to you, it's obvious that you're able to do that because of how many lives you've lived as a writer. 100%.
SPEAKER_03Thank you for saying that. That's so that's like exactly what I want people to feel like. So that's great to hear. I mean, yeah, I think every the thing is when you're a writer, you're I I think it was um, God, I'm totally freaking forgetting. It was like maybe Paul Thomas Anderson um who was talking about how uh we're magpies, you know, like when you're a creator, when you're an artist, you're a magpie. I totally agree with that. I feel like, I mean, like we talked about earlier, my right geist is like it's and it's it's a lot of stuff that's out of genre, and I pull a lot of things that are out of genre into what I write. And so I think it's the Orson Wells quote that's like, I you don't, you know, I didn't know what I didn't know, like when he did Citizen Kane, you know. Not to compare myself to Orson Wells, but um I mean, I don't call me by your name is a huge like I'm a big atmosphere person. I'm a big person for like buy-in. I think that when you're writing a book, you can make it as gritty, as miserable, as anything as you want, but you have to have a buy-in. And for me, it's like every book I write is gonna have like a big house, it's gonna or like a night, like a cool storied home. It's gonna have atmosphere, it's gonna be set somewhere cool, it's gonna have like all these things. And like those things are the buy-in for me. And I'm okay making a little bit things a little bit more challenging, as but it's a nice place. Like Destination Funeral is much more challenging than the other side of now because the main character is a bitch, but she's there for a reason, she's that way for a reason. But the but the book is like dripping in nostalgia and melancholy and atmosphere and food and drink, and like that for me is really important. So, like, Call Me by Your Name couldn't be more atmospheric. Like, I love it. I love that book and movie. Uh, Gone Girl is like one of my all-time favorite. Talk about a book and a movie that are perfect, like pitch perfect. And I love that. And like what I take from that is like I love her acerbic, honest tone. Gillian Flynn, I wish she would write a thousand books. She is so to the point, she's like Hemingway, and that like she does not, she cuts the bullshit. So I take that, and I that's really important to me. And every time I get a little too floral in describing the Ivy, I'm like, okay, shut up, nobody cares. And I try and bring that back. So it's like, uh, I don't remember the question. Oh, but that they're bringing it from a bunch of different lives. It's like, I also was a bartender, like I said, so I talked to a lot of people, and like it's a little bit like people are always like, Oh, I bet that you got a lot of ideas, or a stupid, you know, customer would be like, Oh, I got a story for you. I'm like, you don't. What I'm gonna take from you is all of this, but your your life story is nothing to me. But like, I think that it's true that you just like pick up these little ingredients and like people stick in my head and they kind of combine into like side characters or like people who inspire me. Like, I remember this girl who came into a bartend bar when I was working one time. I was like, she is just like the most grand, beautiful girl who was so like put together and just incredible, and she just held court at her table. Never left my mind. Like, never left my mind. And it's just like I'll never know who she was. I don't even know what a drink I made for her. She was at a table. But it's like, you know, I just I yeah, you do have to just pick up from everything. And I think that the problem that happens with um, I think when you don't like a book, it's usually because it gets a little navel gazing, it's too self-aware, it knows what it's doing, so it's trying to hit certain marks, and it's like I just I don't think that I think I get too bored to do that.
SPEAKER_01So it's an effort for me, but yeah, I feel like you balance everything so perfectly. Like, I don't know how else to describe it besides your books, just like create balance and satisfaction. But like I feel like you're descriptive and I can imagine myself in your stories, but it's not like overly descriptive. So that makes sense. Like you're just like you write the perfect amount of everything where I'm like so involved, and I just love it. I just think you have such a talent, and I just need you to write a thousand more books for us.
SPEAKER_03Well, and how we're gonna send you everything unpublished, you can have it. Okay, sure. I mean, please do. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And how is it that you do that so seamlessly? Like specifically your humor, but then also like the emotional side of your books. I feel like they have like a good balance of both, but how are you? How do you just do it so seamlessly? Is there like a secret sauce to it, or is it like that TikTok audio that's what's that TikTok audio that's like?
SPEAKER_01I don't know. I just do it. Do it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think it I just do it a little bit, but I think it's personality. I think that my books are who I am. I feel like uh I was just saying this to somebody. It's like, I feel like I wish that everybody who was I wish it was required that someone before reading my book, especially Destination Funeral, which I like I said is more challenging. I wish they would listen to this podcast or like watch one video on my TikTok or Instagram, then they'll be like, oh, I get her humor. And that's why I love reading audiobooks too, because it's just like I there is like a my mom and I constantly are having to call each other, not text each other, because we're like, please don't misinterpret what I just said. And like there's an old key and peel sketch where they keep misinterpreting what each other's saying yes, yes, yeah, bringing a baseball bat over. It's like that. My mom and I have had so many, like, the fuck is that supposed to mean? And it's like, I feel like with books, it's like I have there's a lot of tone I hope is not lost. And I feel like it's really a matter of the people who like it are always people who I would be friends with in real life. People who don't like it, I'm like, you probably wouldn't get along. Cause like you're not getting, you're not reading it with the right meter, or not the right meter, but my meter. Yeah. And for me, I mean, when I went to Ireland, I was like, oh, this is why I am who I am, because I am Irish and Scottish mostly, and then Lithuanian, which God, I'm sure when I go there, I'll be like, oh. Um I when I was in Ireland, it's like the taxi driver at on at one point, hey, he was just sitting there, he's talking about his sister and how she died of an opium overdose and it all this, this, that. And then the next thing he said, Oh, yeah, no, you're gonna want to go to that pub down there. And it just like he was having such a great time. He had no, there was no division between complete trauma dumping and just, oh, yeah, I have a great time down that pub. Like it was just like, I love this man. I like while it was happening, I looked at Richie, my partner, and I was like, and he was like, Yeah. Yeah, I have there's no because I don't think anything of just like dropping the craziest, darkest part of my lore and then being like, oh my god, we should do spritzes. Like, that's just like for me, that is the balance. And I my family's big on Gallows humor. Like, I genuinely don't, I don't think I've ever laughed harder in any memory with my whole family than at a funeral. Like, okay, okay. We went to a Cheesecake Factory for some reason after a funeral once, and I just remember ever it was there are a lot of women in my family who were just dying laughing. And I don't know why. I think there is like if to a certain extent it's coping, but it's just like, I don't know, big emotions are big emotions, and it's just like the funniest thing, the worst thing. It's just like, you know, they to me they are the same. And again, I think that goes to the horror thing. Like the scariest thing is the funniest thing. The thing that makes you go, and like have this feeling. It's like, am I laughing or crying? You know, am I like, am I scared or am I so surprised that I'm gonna laugh? Like, I think that that is all kind of the same thing. And to me, it's just like I want everything to be well-rounded. I as a huge bartender, it's like when I teach bartending, it's the same thing. I have like people who I'm teaching, I don't teach them recipes and be like, memorize this. I'll be like, okay, taste, taste the gin, you know, now, or here, taste the rum and now taste it cold, and now taste it with lime, and now taste it with lime and sugar. And then that's why a daiquiri is the holy trinity cocktail, because you need the balance. And then you can start to add in the things like the bitters and the garnish and that like the you know expression on top, or you can add egg white. Like, what how do you change texture and add that like la last base note? I feel like that's just kind of how I take to everything. Like, you add a little bit of everything, but it's very unconscious to me. It's not, I think that the problem is actually when I overthink it. I get really stuck when I try to like make something what it is. And when I go naturally off of who I am and how I think about things, it comes out much better than if I overthink it. Then it gets muddy, which is my problem when I was a painting major after I dropped acting when I got published. And my problem with painting is that I would overthink it, and then everything came out like wow, because and that's because I was I'm not that great a painter. I'm not as good at painting as I am some other things, and it's because I overthink it. So that's a visual example.
SPEAKER_01Do you ever get like the publishing like jitters? Like when you're when you have a book that's coming out, is it ever scary to you, or are you just kind of like, I feel confident in this, I'm putting it out, and whoever reads it reads it.
SPEAKER_03Um, the other side of now, I was like, I don't even take credit for this book. It like was given to me. It came to me so effortlessly. Every voice in that book, like Kira in that book, I was like, I don't know if she's just me in some ways, or if I if I felt like I was visited by Ashlyn B, the Irish comedian. She just was her to my to me. Every line, I knew exactly what she'd say. Um, I didn't have to work that hard on that. Um, I also have taken to outlining a little bit more, which I hate because I'm very jazzy. I'm like, this is just a little bit of this and a woo, a little salt. And like I need to not do that because that's what got me stopped up being like, oh god, I have no plot. Like, so I um yeah, what was the question?
SPEAKER_01Do you ever get like jitters and jitters? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, the so the other side of now, no. I was just like that. The book like, I mean, I probably have just forgotten them, but I I felt really confident about that book. This one, because I know that the main character is she's an angry eldest daughter. She's somebody who has any eldest daughter listening will understand the feeling of being like, but I did all this for you. And then someone's saying, I didn't ask you to, and you being like, that is not good enough. Yes. It's like, what happens when that compounds over a lifetime and just makes you so angry? And you just like, and then you're like the problem of being somebody who always takes the load off, makes the conversation keep flowing, you know, and then feeling like all this resentment eventually, and being like, I'm so sick of carrying everything. And no, nobody asked me to do it, but it wouldn't have happened if I didn't do it. No, I needed to do it, and now I'm pissed off, and now I don't even want to like take the extra step to make things better because then it's just me doing more again. And that is who this character is, and I understand her deeply. And a lot of people are, you know, there I've seen a few reviews. I look at reviews in the beginning and then I stop because I'll go insane. Um but like a lot of reviews are being like, I understood her by the end. And it's like, yes, that is reading a book. That is the point. Um, but yes. And it's like she, you get to know why she uh is how she is. But I get it. Like, I get like people want people to be likable, but right now we're in an era of like over-moralizing everybody and just it's like, let her be flawed. She sucks right now. She's pissed off. She's at her mom's funeral with a bunch of with her ex-boyfriend who she's mad at, her sister who she hasn't talked to in years, who's like, do whatever you want. And then like some guy who is wonderful and kind of just got lost in the mix. But it's like, and she's gotta go deal with all this, and it's like she doesn't want to. And so I don't have a problem with having a character who again, you need the buy-in. It's like my buy-in. If I was reading Destination Funeral, is like, oh my god, but I love everybody else and I love this place, and I want to know why she's so mad. But I so I feel less, I'm like, oh, this one's gonna be more polarizing. But um, yeah, when I just did the audiobook, I read back through it and I was like, this is a good book. I I'm I felt a little bit more confident after finishing up. I was like, okay, I feel better about it. And I have to not overthink people's reviews, and that's why I don't read them for I I always want to get like a temperature in the beginning. Um I'm kind of but the first hundred reviews will tell you what the next thousand and ten thousand are gonna say. So it's like, what are people gonna think about this? It's like they're gonna not like Diddy and some people are gonna give up, or they're just not gonna get her because probably they're the youngest. Um, you want to know what though?
SPEAKER_01I'm the youngest and I understood her.
SPEAKER_03Well, there you go.
SPEAKER_00See, this is what we mean, we need more youngest siblings like you.
unknownYou know?
SPEAKER_00Well, no, I finished it and I was like, oh, I am her. Yeah a little bit.
SPEAKER_01I was like, oh wait, but also I find books daughters who the main character is maybe a little bit more unlikable, way more interesting than the books where this female main character is just perfect, very um, what's the word I'm looking for? Like stoic flat, but like, yeah, agreeable and just like Hallmark. Hallmark heroes. Yes, exactly. I don't want that. I want someone that's a little bit more interesting, and I love books where you can look at the characters at the end compared to the beginning, and there's actually character development rather than, yeah, maybe the plot is like solved, but the characters didn't change at all.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, no, and I think that the thing is is that and I watch just as much as I read. So like my references are always all writing, you know, even video games, like video games can have great writing, you know, and like that's a subset of different, you know, like not the same crossover always, but like something that has growed writing, even if it's just a TikTok that somebody improv improvised, like great writing is great writing. Yeah, and yeah, I mean, I want somebody to be more flawed. Every woman that I know, most of the authors that I know are women, and I mean, it's the number one struggle. Like, they always hate her, they always say she's difficult, they always say she's unlikable. And it's because you're in her head, by the way. Whether it's third person, first person, you're usually in her head seeing all her worst thoughts, you know, or you're getting the explanation of her being like, God, I'm being such a jerk, but I just can't stop. It's like, yeah, I think the problem is like when you get, when you get these like A24 ass movies and books that are just like, it's ambiguous. And like I've like Emma Klein is never gonna be my friend because I can never stop talking about the guest, how that character is like, she's flawed, she just and she keeps on being flawed and like nothing happens and it drives me insane. But there are books like that where we like when it's an awful character, we want them to grow or we want them to be punished. And it's like, you know, yesteryear is a great example of she's like an unlikable main character and she's super polarizing, but it's like I loved her, I was like, this is great, you know. And I there are other thoughts that I have about the whole book on the whole, but it's like, yeah, like I'm and again, gone girl, like Amy Dunn, what a jerk. She's so horrible, but I love her. She's brilliant, she's I respect her, and I don't need her to be anything she isn't. And you know, it by the end she kind of gets you know punished and she gets to succeed. Like you get everything, yeah. So yeah, I don't know. For me, my unlikable character, like red flags. Like, if I have to read about one more hardened alcoholic journalist who doesn't want to talk about it, like that is me out. I'm done. I can't, like that to me is unlikeable because it's tropey, because it doesn't feel personal. You can be you're gonna be unlikable if you're if you're a genuine jerk. I'll still like you. But if you're just a trope and just an imitation of other, you know, and again, I think that that hardened alcoholic journalist who doesn't want to talk about it is the same as the Hallmark heroine, where it's just like, yeah, man, is she brave? Oh, she's so stoic and she doesn't complain. And it's like that is not the perfect woman. Yeah, yeah. So I'm that's that's when I get unlikable characters.
SPEAKER_00So, what's it like to understand your characters so clearly? Because I mean you've written them, and then get to portray them in the audiobooks. Because for those listening that don't know, you narrate your own books. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Like what I just want to know literally everything, but specifically, like what is it like to bring your own characters to life in your own voice? Well, I Which you're a fantastic hat, by the way. People have gotten a little taste in this episode. Oh my god, my tactic. I love it. Yeah, just talent.
SPEAKER_01You elude talent.
SPEAKER_03I love it here. Um I I mean, it's the I I did, I acted and I was a theater major. I grew up acting. My dad was a musician, so I was always on stage, and I'm just a ham. I'm a Sagittarius. I'm like, you know, I just want attention. So it's like I was always, it's like, I mean, I remember, I remember what I got in trouble for in fifth grade was that my teacher literally had to talk to my mom and be like, she will not stop doing a British accent, and we need her to stop and stop doing that. Iconic. So and also when my mom was pregnant with my brother, I just for whatever reason, the character that I became was like an in an impatient Brooklyn waitress at a diner. Like I was like, what do you want? You want something you want me to get? And I was just like running around the house being just like, oh, you want me to turn off the pasta water so you can smell the pasta water? And I'm just like, that's unbearable. Like I am why I'm not having children. It's like, oh, can you imagine? Horrible. But anyway, I so when I um kind of one for one thing, I started doing comedy videos on Instagram and TikTok um between I wish I started doing it in the pandemic because that's when everybody blew up, but instead I was healing. And so in 2023, um, when my when I signed the contract for St. Martin's, I had to wait two years for the book to come out in order to do the it was like I was choosing, no big deal. I was choosing between publishers to go with. And I could have had it come out in 2024 with a different publisher or wait and have it come out with St. Martin's, which felt bigger and a little bit more what I wanted. Um and I was like, I want to try doing this, like the correct, like the big five, the like, you know, the I want to try doing it that way. And if that doesn't work, then I can go rogue. But so I wanted to go with them, but I had to wait two years. And in that time, I was like, I have 1800 Instagram followers, I want to have more, and I'm just gonna grow that because I got nothing going on and I already got paid, so I can do nothing for the next three months. So I just kind of like started doing stuff, and I was very nervous because of all the people I used to be snarky with, you know. I'm like, uh, I don't know if I'm with them anymore because they're mean, but I used to be mean with them, and uh, I can just picture them making fun of me for for trying for the for the embarrassing social crime of trying something. And so I was really nervous too, and then I just like started doing it anyway. And then like once one hit a million, I was like, whatever. And then I did start doing uh Hallmark movies in one minute, and it started with a video of just like every Hallmark heroine, and I just over and over I had to start going, Oh, uh hi. Oh, hi. And I just did that, and then I started doing just a whole Hallmark video in one minute, and it was just, and then I always the character was Luke, and it was just like you're probably wondering why I got here. Your own. It's like all the same. Like, this is where I come to think. And just, you know, well, I really want my son to walk, so I have to save the bakery. It's like, and I just started doing these and they got really surreal. Like, they started like it's pretty straight imitations, and then they got super surreal and bizarre. And that sort of built my following. And so suddenly I was like acting again, which was really fun. And like it was just like kind of improv and like just being funny. And it's funny, I recently got in touch with my college boyfriend, and like we're friends now, and I talk to his wife like every day. And he's like, When did you get funny? And I'm like, I was always funny, but maybe not at that time. Because like when we were, I don't know, in college, it's like I don't think I was in that headspace and something freaked me about doing these videos. And I was always funny for like my family and stuff. But I started doing that. And so that kind of got that going again and made me feel confident. And then when I started hearing the auditions for the other side of now, I was like, no, no. Audiobook narrators are do or die for me. I am like, ever since I was a little kid and I was listening to Winnie the Pooh on tape, I was like, I can't with this narrator. I hate her. And so I was listening to these narrations. I have everybody hates their own voice. This wasn't that I was like, guys, have you heard me speak? This was more of it was more like I am listening to these narrators. I one of my biggest pet peeves is when they have this like really low, sort of overhead voice. And I can't stand, I'm like, you don't sound like someone I would have fun with or someone that I can be in the head with where I'm just like, I'm flawed, I'm crazy. I don't know, I'm normal. It's like it's so overwrought. And I can't stand that. And I don't like when the men's voices, I don't like that. I hate the little kid voices. So I gave them a chapter that had accents, women's voices, men's voices, kids' voices, and comedy. And it was the it was chapter 14, I think, and the other side of now, which was um the birthday party for the kid. And everybody, there was one joke, and everybody kept reading it wrong. And I was like, this is my nightmare because this book is supposed to be funny and it has to be funny, and they have to get the comedy. And so I kind of was just like, Can I throw my hat in the ring? And they, I think they were just being nice, and they were like, sure, you can do that. Little author who needs to have her fingers and everything. And I did it, and I got an email back immediately. They were like, You can just record it on voice memo. And if you mess up, I'm like, girl, as if I'm not going into Ableton and editing the living hell out of this and making sure it's perfect. Yeah, like skin mastering it, you're crazy. So I sent this like entire chapter, perfectly edited, everything. And they're like, you can do it. And I was like, hell yeah. Um that's a really long answer, sorry. But when I was bringing um life to those characters, it's like they already existed to me so distinctly, and I'm already playing them in my head always. And I also, the advice I would give anyone who wants to write, always read your work aloud. I don't care if you hate your own voice, don't record it. It doesn't matter. Read it aloud because you're gonna you're gonna realize, oh my God, I just said benign seven pages ago. You can't say benign twice. That like big like words that you notice if they if they're gonna stay too close. Um, you're gonna notice if dialogue sounds clunky. Uh, you're gonna notice you're straight up just gonna notice errors, like continuity, everything. Like, and I have always read, my mom would have me read her books to her when I was growing up. And then when I started writing, I would always read my books to her while she was like making pasta or doing, you know, like doing some something in the kitchen. And I read to my brother or I read to Richie, I read to whoever I'm like work, you know, like my inner circle. Um, and yeah, like I I'm literally editing as I go, you know, like I'm like that's I and also if something's funny, like it's like I don't know if you've ever seen David Sederis on stage, he's making notes as he's reading, uh like to at, you know, whatever in front of a huge audience and making changes before it goes in the book. And yeah, like if I notice something is working, I'm gonna notice that and whatever. And you know, if somebody it's like, wait, wait, so who wait, who's so-and-so? Then I know that that matters to change. So I've always already had the characters kind of down in my head, and you know, that was like the easiest thing in the world. I'm actually narrating a Genevieve Wheeler book in the fall. And because I fell in love with audiobook narrating, I was like, please, everybody give me more audiobook work. You're amazing at it.
SPEAKER_00Yes, like genuinely, I remember starting Des or not Destination Funeral, um, Other Side of Now. Yeah. And I remember like there were times I almost like had to pause listening, being like, hold on a second. I like I was so impressed with all the different accents you did, and just how like it there's sometimes when you listen to an audiobook and you're like, okay, I'm listening to an audiobook, but there's times where you're listening to an audiobook, yours, for example, where I forget that I'm listening to a book and I feel like you are in my head and I am you. And it's that's so well done. Yes. And you all are I mean, like you said, with the comedy, they've got to get the comedy, and who's gonna know that better than you, than you?
SPEAKER_03So yeah, and knowing the inflections and knowing like every way that I intended something, it's like I think maybe that's for the more diehard people who really want to know like the meat, and they're not just like reading it to read it, but it's like a lot of people have said that too, that it matters to them, and it is rare, like for for an author to a fiction author to read their own. But like Stephen Rowley read The Gunkle, he's like the only person who could read that. Like, of course, you should read that. And like at this point, I'm writing thinking, we should give her this accent, because I can do that accent.
SPEAKER_01Like, yeah, like how fun characters are Australian now. But I mean, it's it's a good point because sometimes when you're listening to an audiobook and it's meant to be funny, and the narrator just reads it bone dry, the comedy isn't portrayed. Yes. Yeah. But obviously, listening to yours is a lot more of an experience. Obviously, we listen to the other side of now, and then this time we're able to read Destination Funeral, and it's kind of crazy because almost at times, not that I can like hear you reading it in my brain, but since I listened to you read the other one, sometimes I'm like, oh, maybe she would say this like this.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Or things like that. And also, such a genius thing to read your book out loud. We've never had an author say that they do that on the podcast. But now that you say that, it makes so much sense. It makes so much sense. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You have to. And I don't I don't think it hurts that I have the acting background because like clunky dialogue and stuff, or or if something's going on too long, if you start to zone out when you're reading it, like every every writer also, and I say this because most like the successful writers are probably already these things are innate, but like for people who are trying to become authors, which I'm sure a lot of people who listen into reading podcasts are, it's like you if you're bored, we're bored. Like in when I'm reading something, if I'm just like, oh my god, this description, it's like, give it a rest. Like, I know I need to cut it. Or if I if I find myself omitting something that feels like cringy to say, I'm like, why would I put it in there then? If I don't want to say it out loud, you know, and it's not character stuff, but it's just like some way I put something is weird. I don't know. Because I also, I'm a person who kind of blacks out when I write because my writing style is insane and I recommend it to nobody, which is that I like write for like 16 hours straight. And like, I'm like Gollum. I'm like, I'll pee after this chapter. And it's like I and I just go and go and I write really fast, I write my first draft like very, very fast. Um, like the fastest I've ever written is like in two weeks. Um, but then of course it takes a long time to do editing and stuff. But I have to write that way because for me, I don't remember. I I really respect people who have like their religious way of sitting down and like every day they do this. Not for me, not could never be me. I need to like sit down and binge write because that's how I remember. Oh, I phrased something like this. And every time that I start to get too distant between like editing sessions or whatever, I'll notice that I'm like, I put something in and I realize like, oh, paragraph later, I already did that. And then like, because I mean it's like you know, it's like a time loop in itself where it's like, well, I'm always gonna make the same choices, so I'm gonna notice and she'd be there.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I kind of need that momentum to ride. And yeah, I mean, reading it out loud, especially to somebody. If you have somebody who is your cold reader or someone you trust, your partner or parent or somebody, just a friend, it's just so helpful. And it's so funny to say that you like have me in your head because all my friends who read it are like, it's just you talking. And I'm like, and they like especially like even like here lies Bridget, my first book. Everyone was just like, even reading it because they know me, when they physically read it, they're just like, it's just you telling me a story. Then it's like, I I guess I I I am gonna me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, but I love it. Well, that's so special too. Yeah, it's I think that's really special. So you're you're a writer, obviously. You you've got acting experience. Do you when you're writing your books, are you imagining them as any like actors or actresses? Like, do you fan cast your own books?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00And we want to hear, we want to hear.
SPEAKER_03Um, I don't, it's like, it's not always it's funny that you asked that because I just was saying to Richie the other day, to my fiance, I was like, I feel because my next book is gonna be challenging. Not in a I'm actually making an effort to like, all right, I gave him a difficult character. Everyone's gonna be likable as hell in the next book. But it's like I'm kind of like, I want, I'm like going into it with like a I want like a Bill Nye guy in it. And I want like a this. And I'm like, and I don't usually go this direction, but I'm just like, and I want like somebody in it to be Kate Winslett. You know what I mean? Like I'm like, I want these people to kind of be these different people. I want like this person to be a Ryan Gosling. And it's like usually they're kind of like, like I said, in the other side of now, Kira just was Ashling B. And if you like look at if you're not familiar with her and you've read the book, it's like, go watch any clip of her, and you'll be like, that's her. Yep, that's her. Um, and so she kind of just was her in my head. It's funny, the main character is often the less distinctive. It's like to me, I and I and I hesitate too, because I know that some people have like somebody's in their head and they don't want to find out that somebody is played by somebody else in the writer's head. But to me, um, Killian was Paul Meskell or um, oh my god, it was Jack O'Connell, who I've been in love with since Skins UK, who was just my dream. He's so hot. Um, so he was kind of one of them to me, but he was named after Killian Murphy. Um and uh well, and then um uh Grayson Gamble, the the the airheaded boyfriend uh back in LA in the beginning of the other side now, he was named after Ed Gamble, the British comedian, because he just was him to me in my head. He's like blue eyes, dark hair, looks like Prince Charming. Yeah, just and I'm like, he's him in my head. Um and then uh, but then and then like the more main characters are a little bit harder. Like I've done casting for like a film agent, you know, who's representing it. It's like I've I've actually given them who I think. And Molly Gordon, who uh directed and was in theater camp and who was the girlfriend in the bear, um, she's kind of Amy to me in the other side of her. Oh, okay. And then the main character is like every, I mean, they're just always like Jennifer Lawrence, because that's like who I feel like I that's my spirit animal. It's like that's me, that's who I am. We should be best friends. It's like Emma Stone, Jennifer Lawrence, like the the fun, funny, self-effacing can, you know, that's always kind of my input, main character. But um, Destination Funeral, I haven't really mentally cast yet because I've just, I don't know, there's so much I've been putting together, I did all these mood boards for my Instagram and stuff, and there's so much like vibe stuff, but I haven't really figured out who any of those people are, except speaking of Kate Winslit, for some reason um Babe was a little bit her, like her if she played like a funky character that she's kind of played. She's also a little bit like Princess Diana in my head. Like it's not always that. Yeah, I can see that. Sometimes it's just people who inspire me. She's like flawed but very loving, but crazy. I don't know, she's also anti-Mame. Like there are a lot of like character draws, but I haven't really done casting in my head for Destination for Young Roll yet. But I would love to hear if you have.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I'm the worst fan caster. I'm trying to think of like two sisters. Oh, the fannings would be great.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um the one fanning in Margot's Got Money Problems. Yeah, L Fanning. Yeah, yeah. Playing, wait, how do you pronounce Didion? Did you do Diddy? Didn't Didion? I feel like she could play Didion really well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. I love her too. They also, I mean, they're so funny together. Like their chemistry is so great. I feel like they'd be great. Um, yeah. Oh, well, except for okay. The Austin is Matthew McConaughey. Like, he just is Matthew McConaughey. Peak, how does it get 10 days? Matthew McConaughey. He just is. That has he has always been him. And yeah, he's just that's who he is in my head.
SPEAKER_01That's so funny. I love that. Are you would you want like your books to be picked up? Did you say that your book has been picked up by someone or it has.
SPEAKER_03I have uh there's a film agent who represents it, and like there's been there have been conversations and there's been this and that, but there's always conversations, and yeah, you never know. So um I I I mean, I feel like Destination Funeral, okay. Destination Funeral went through, and I I I hesitate to say because someone's gonna be like, yeah, it shows, but it nothing has undergone more change than Destination Funeral. I wrote it from multiple perspectives. I had two other friends initially in it. It was said in Brovence. I had it like everywhere. I did all kinds of different versions of it getting started. I did two entire full write rewrites where it was in her head and in Sammy's head. It was in both sisters' heads and flashbacks, and it wasn't, there was no magical time loop. It was just the two of them and then the flashbacks. And then everyone was confused all the time. So I was like, okay, well, I have to change it. So um, and it was just too, it's too much to do two POVs and the past, I think. Yeah. Um, I initially wanted to do it third person, kind of in everybody's head, more movie-like, you know, so you're sort of you're with Matt and he's with the, but um, I just don't like writing third person. I just I write that very personal first person, flawed, you know, that's sort of funny and flawed. And I just don't have fun writing third person. So it just had to be first person. And I know that other reviews have said, I wish it was like this. And it's like, do you? Well, it's like I can't do it. I just third person was just it just not, she's it's not as easy to be in the heart for me. So um, yeah, I feel like Destination Funeral would be a great show because you could and then because I'm allowing somebody else to do that work. Acting would be great if it was like the big chill, which you know, an ancient film, but like it was it was a following all of them and their personal dramas and more stuff. I would love to do, I would love if it was a show and if it was following all of their different stuff and having kind of their personal, maybe their personal episode like um Skins and Lost and stuff where it's like their past flashback.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I'd love that. Yeah, that would be so fun.
SPEAKER_03Um Woody and I love shows when they have flashbacks too and show like the same character younger. And then the other side of now I think would just be a great movie. Oh, for sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. 100%. Would you want to star? Like, would you like if you could cast yourself as a character in any of your books, if it was put to screen, like who would you want to play?
SPEAKER_03I think I could be, I could certainly be the angry eldest daughter. I mean, I think it would be like in it's like the problem is when you're trying to sell a movie or something, like they want talent attached. So like the main characters, like they want to get like a big game. So it's like the practical side is like, well, yeah, I'd much rather it be like somebody huge. But it's like in like the dream way, it's like, yeah, I think that I could be either of those main characters, and I get them deeply, obviously. But I also think I would be great at being Kira. Yeah, yeah and the other side of now, I would be a great Kira. And I could also be a great pain in the ass, little sisters.
SPEAKER_00So I could be so that would be iconic, actually. That would be so iconic.
SPEAKER_03I want you to play a part.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, rather than just when they get picked up, I want you to play a part.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And I don't want to just be like the self-conscious, like the author is sitting on the bench in Madison Square Park. Yeah. No, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_00Reading her own, like, give me lines. Yes. Yes. No, I'm rooting for you for that because that'd be amazing.
SPEAKER_01It's interesting that you say that some people do wish it was written in third person or or destination funeral, because I find it so much more interesting in first person because it creates a little bit more of that like mystery and intrigue of the other characters and what they're thinking, which I feel like is so important to Destination Funeral specifically. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03I think that when people want that, they they actually just want more period and they don't know what they mean. And I think that like, or they I mean, that book is a long book in manuscript form. That book is 105,000 words or something, and usually they're going for like between 80 and 100 or 70 and 90. So it's like it's it's on the long end, even though printed, it doesn't look that big. It's like 500 something pages in a manuscript. So I mean, there just wasn't that much space to go into more. And there were, I mean, you know, if if I were to release the Midnight Sun version of Destination Funeral, it's like there is just like there was a whole uh there were so many other memories and stuff, and like I said, there were other people. Like Taylor Ray is like a side character. She used to be one of the gang. Um yeah, and she was really, she was really fun to write. I liked her as much as I like writing Kira, and I just I didn't end up doing, but it was it was her, and she she was the mother of uh the daughter of the little kid in it. Um and then also uh uh Austin used to be two people, used to be her love interest, and it used to be Sammy's ex. And so and Sammy used to be chef, everything used to be different. Sammy was initially like a Molly Baz-inspired shelf chef influencer who was like a little bit more, and Molly Baz isn't this way, this isn't on her, but like she was supposed to be a little bit more like she was obsessed with the fact that she just lost, went down from a million followers and stuff. And that and I was like, you know what? People hated all of the Hollywood stuff in The Other Side Now. Like, if there was a criticism and that book is mostly beloved, which thank you, they hate the Hollywood stuff and they hate the pop culture references. And I'm like, I love that, and I don't get it.
SPEAKER_01I love it.
SPEAKER_03I think they were so great. So great.
SPEAKER_00I feel like there's some books that have like pop culture references or yeah, Hollywood things in it, and it can feel kind of like it takes you out of the story. But we've said this a million times. You did it so tastefully. Thank you. So genuinely, from the bottom of our hearts.
SPEAKER_01Just know that it's not a critique from us at all.
SPEAKER_03No, I like it. I like like to me, it means something about the character if they're wearing a Montclair jacket or they're wearing a Columbia jacket that matters between, you know, like it's a way to like it makes a difference. And her getting and being like, oh my god, I'm here and this is the and I have the same Ilya mascara. Like that's weird that in both lives I would end up with the same mascara, but is it weird? And like to me, that is important. And my mom also, for anybody who's like, oh my god, Beth Harveston, that's crazy. I didn't know it was her daughter. It's like my mom has such a beloved following for her nostalgia writing about like writing in the writing about like the 80s and the like, gee, your hair smells terrific and the baby soft and like all these like scents and smells and stuff. And I think that to a certain extent, there's a little bit of like once it becomes nostalgia, people love it. But when it feels too immediate, it's like I don't want to think about a Kardashian right now, and it's like, well, deal with it. But it's like I to me, I love those little things. I I think brands, I'm not like a very brand-obsessed person at all. I like I actually hate when like expensive things are very brandy, so I'm not like that. But I do think it means something about who you are, depending on your choices of what you buy. So I think it's interesting to have those little things. And the pop culture references, I'm very aware of not making it dated, but it's just like some people have been in the mix so long, it's okay. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00Like, yeah, well, I've never thought of it that way, but that makes so much sense. And I feel like that just gives that just gives so much more to your characters, makes them feel more real.
SPEAKER_01Well, and also I feel like too, the more we've learned about you and just the fact that like how much you're into pop culture and the fact that you co-host a podcast with your mom, right? And it's kind of more about pop culture. Yeah, I just feel like it's so much cooler to know that about you, and it just makes your books that much more personal to you, if that makes sense. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah, you can't fight your own voice. No. And I think that's something that like, you know, I had to kind of learn about like the unlikable character. I'm like, guess they wouldn't like me. Because it's like, because and they're not always me at all by any means. Like Didian, I'm not as pissed off as Diddy, you know, but like, and I'm not, and I'm not um Meg either. I'm I'm not really either of the main characters of these last two books, but I also share a lot with them, but I share a lot of every part of it. And I think you have to not fight who you are. So like when you're writing, you have to like, and again, that's kind of the ghostwriting thing. People have a hard time looking at the mirror as it's held up because they're just like, oh, I don't like that about me, or somebody doesn't like when they See themselves reflected in it. Like I know that probably some people are like, not a lot of people are like, oh no, it's me, like you said. But it's like, you know, oh my God, like I I am kind of, I think this way and whatever, and they don't like seeing it. And you can't fight who you are. And it's just like who I am is like, yeah, I'm gonna make an inappropriate joke at a funeral. Uh, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna talk about makeup and I'm gonna talk about Vanderpump rules till I'm dead. So it's like, yeah, it's gotta be in there.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, it's kind of going back to what you said at the very beginning. Like, if people don't like your books, they probably wouldn't like you. And it's just kind of like it is what it is.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And that's a good thing. And that's a hard thing for people to accept about it. For sure. Everyone wants to be liked. So it's like, you know, but you have to, it's it's a it all you know, if you can accept that about your writing, you can accept it about yourself. And when you're reading something, it's like, I do think it's worth looking at being like, why don't I like her? And it's like, I bet it's more personal to you than you think.
SPEAKER_01Oh, for sure. 100%. Do you have a character that was the hardest to write and one that was the easiest to write?
SPEAKER_03Uh, Kira was just like Kira and Killian, like I said, like their voices were just, it was like they were whispered to be my be my uh me by muses. Like I think that that was very those were very easy for me. Um, I just think that destination funeral was a hard, hard thing to get right because uh I wanted to communicate because everybody's so flawed and it and that's the point. And like the point of destination funeral to me is what happens when you get in your own way. And like this is a book about a group of friends who ends up back in this amazing, cool house on the beach where they spent all their teenage summers, and they have been estranged for years, and it's like it's very reflective of the times that we're in because we've all gotten. I think right now we're actually on a tilt and we're starting to move away from it, but we got so distant from each other in the last 10 years, and then COVID, I think COVID was just a symptom of something that was already happening, which is like, and then we really had to stay home for a whole year. And it's like we were already distancing each other from each other because of social media. And, you know, the book is kind of like this big allegory and fable of like, well, what happens if you get stuck you know in your own bullshit and you're just looking at your work and you're so obsessed with success, and you're so obsessed with, you know, make and she's not like money hungry, but she is success hungry and you know, optimization maxing in a way that like, because we all are not that that's in the book verbatim, but that is what she's doing. She's trying to be so good. And in doing so, like years have slipped by where she's just like, now she's not talked to these people in a decade or whatever. And you know, but like they all these characters are doing that. Like Austin got too obsessed with himself and the like the things that he was and and being the thing he thought he'd be in order to let in the thing that was right in front of him. And Sammy is so obsessed with finding who she ought to be that she's you know not being present. And Matt is perfect, basically. Matt is great, Matt does not have a problem. He's the level-headed person who is actually present at all times, but they're all getting in their own way. And I think that it was hard to write that book because it was hard to look in that mirror and be like, that is where we are right now. And I don't think people love looking at it, and they want to be in a fantasy world, and they want to be like, I'm I'm reading a book because I want to get away from the real world, but it's also hard because it's these characters have lived the same last 10 years as we have, and they are victims of it as much as we are. And the other side of now kind of exists out of time where it's kind of like anytime, if that came out in 2006, it would make just as much sense as it would in 10 years. Destination Funeral, as timeless as I want it to feel, it also feels like a book that comes out this year. Like it feels like a book of the now, and also it but in a way that probably every generation would feel like, oh yeah, that's that's this is so prescient for now, because we all think that in our own uh generations, but yeah, so it was hard writing people who were that lonely, honestly.
SPEAKER_01But well, it's crazy because the scene where they have to give up their phones to be in the home. Yeah, I like sat there for a second and I thought about like putting myself in their shoes, and I was like, I don't think I could give up my phone. It was kind of like putting the mirror up to myself and being like, maybe I do have a problem. And she's she's freaking out, she's gotta text all the people at work making sure everything's okay. And I thought to myself, that is me. Um, maybe I should get rid of my phone for an entire weekend.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, and I also I hate with my whole soul, I hate the trope of Groundhog Day. I hate it. Yeah. And so, why then would you write a Groundhog Day book? And it's like, well, I didn't. I wanted these people to get stuck in time. And so I've pushed back a little bit on them marketing it that way because I'm like, that would put me off. I don't want to watch, I don't want to read a Groundhog Day anything. Yeah. I hate it. I hate the laborious, like, I know we have to go through it all over and again. And I hadn't even seen Groundhog Day when I wrote this book. And then I I just knew I hated the trope and then I watched Groundhog Day. I'm like, yeah, I hate it. Um so I love Bill Murray, but um, so I wanted these people to get stuck in time, time will not move forward. And I experimented with like, what if it just the sun never sets and it's just the same, you know, in the day. And like that was cool and creepy to me, but I was like, it'll be easier to kind of communicate what's going on without that. And I just wanted these people to basically not the weekend will not release them until they release what have their bullshit. And like that, it's it's and since they're all stuck in the time loop, there's not like things keep happening every day, but that's also kind of allegorical for just like life, where it's just like the same things are gonna come at you every day, and you have to deal with them differently. Like you have to change. The things around you are not gonna change, and you can't count on them changing, but you can, and they have to kind of break through that. And so, yeah, I but but writing a time loop is like something I never thought I was gonna do like that. But I getting them all stuck there, you know. I also know that people have there, there was a real practical problem with writing it where I'm like, okay, well, I can't have the day that repeats be the day that they arrive where everyone's arriving all the time. That's irritating. Then they have to live through the whole Saturday, and they can't just live that Saturday uh like quickly. It can't skip past that because you'd be like, what? You're skipping past them just spending time for the first time in a decade? You can't do that. So it's like pretty deep in the book when the time loop starts, and that pissed some people off. I'm like, listen, I would have loved to start on the repeat, but you can't like logistically just and you have to know what is at stake for them to be stuck. So exactly, yeah. I don't know. I know that it it takes a little bit to get to that too, but it's like hopefully worth it because Yeah, I felt like it makes the ending so much more satisfying. Yeah, me too.
SPEAKER_00So yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, going into it, I didn't know that it had the repeating loop. And I was like, how is this book gonna go down? They're only together for like a weekend. I feel like that's gonna be really short. But I was like, oh, this makes a really interesting element to the story. Because I felt like when Saturday got over for the for the first time, I was like, these characters have resolved nothing. I was like, how how is this how how is this gonna go down? I was like, they're gonna resolve it in like nine hours tomorrow. But then it adds a really, really unique element. And I was like, oh, they're repeating, they're gonna have to get through all their crap together. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well, and I I one of my favorite lines in it that I wrote was the one that Matt said, which because like the problem when you write a magical realism, and like you said, like I I love that you don't feel like my books slip easily into a genre because um they're because the whole like it's sci-fi in a way, but it's just like eh, I don't want that. I just want it to feel real, but like something's off. And you can't really, if you're gonna do a magical element, it really has to be um, it has to be something that already exists in what's going on. And like I said, it didn't initially have that magical element. I thought of it before writing it, but I didn't do it. And then I did it, I added it, I changed it. That was a lot of work. And it was like the but the thing was, it's just like, but they do need that. Like it is these people, what these people need would be solved by that, and that actually makes it a little bit more natural. And yeah, I mean, having the them all get stuck, it's just like my favorite line was when Matt says, you know what? Since 2016, I'll believe anything. Because it's just like I didn't want these characters to be sitting there being like, well, wait a minute for ever. You know, it's like this doesn't make any sense. How can this be going on? And in the other side of now, I also have her kind of call out the the elephant in the room, and the character says, in whenever I'm watching a movie that has this kind of thing, I'm always like, keep up, girl, it's a time loop or whatever. Or they're like, they take forever to get it, or they're they trust it too quickly. And that's the problem. Every whenever you look at something with this little magical element, you're gonna be like, oh, and they just oh, it's just a time loop, and you're just like it. Okay, do you really want me to spend three chapters of them being convinced? It's like, no.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. But I'm just obsessed. Well, we're we just have a few last questions. Let's do it because you've given us so much great things. It's been so fun talking to you. I feel like we could just listen to you talk all day long. Actually, you're such an interesting person. I love it.
SPEAKER_03I feel like now we're like, okay, what are we getting for dinner? Yeah. Where are we going?
SPEAKER_01Um, are you reading anything right now? Do you like read while you write, or do you try not to do that? Oh, like how to.
SPEAKER_03I'm a gas in the tank. Reading is gas in the tank. I am not that like, I don't have any of the weird superstition stuff around like the um you don't write what you're writing, or you start to compare yourself to this and that. I'm like, it's whatever. I mean, sometimes I feel like an imposter when I read something fantastic that's like similar or whatever, but whatever. Um, and so I don't know. I'm right now, I one thing that I tend to read before I go into a writing project is I'm reading like what's working or like what is getting the people talking. So like Strangers, I read Strangers by Bell Burden. Um, I read Yesteryear, I read, um, but I also read what is it? Um Our Perfect Storm, Carly Fortune. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um I also just read, oh, what did I just read?
SPEAKER_03Um The Storms by Rachel Hawkins. Um and I'm reading, I'm reading a book called The Breakup Retreat right now, which uh was sent to me by my publisher unprompted and without a note. So I was like, oh here's the book, okay. And um and uh it's got something where she she's a podcaster who is like going to investigate this like really cool, fancy uh retreat that's like sums off. And she's exactly not that like hardened journalist. She's she's really cool and she's really likable. But I just started that. Um and I mean books I've read recently. Uh Gabrielle Korn, her book just came out, Long Island Girls, is fantastic. It's like you I keep saying about it, you might not remember being a lesbian in the early 2000s in Long Island, but you will have to read that book. It feels so personal, even though it's like not for me. And I know it won't be for a lot of people who read it, but they're gonna connect to it. Um so that one's great. Uh, but yeah, I always read a ton when I'm getting ready to write. It's like I I feel like I forget how words work unless I'm reading. So I I always have to do that. But I've you I had something pulled up that I was that I had just read that I wanted to, it's gone. Well, I'll comment on the video on Instagram if I remember what it is. But I'm I'm reading a couple things too. Like I'm reading a Lisa Jewell book. Oh yeah. Okay. You got range. Yeah, yeah. I love that. I basically and I one of my favorite genres to read is memoirs by women. I just love I went through a huge phase where I read like Sama Hayek's and I read Sophia Benoit and Blythe Robertson, and I read all these great ones, and then I like was like, I will be friends with some of these people. And so now I am friends with Sophia Benoit and Blythe Robertson. I like reached out to them and I made them be my friends and be on my podcast. I watch I Blythe Robertson came on and we watched um Practical Magic. So that was a fun episode. Sophia Benoit came on and we watched some stupid Hallmark movie called like I don't even remember what it was called, but it came out like on my birthday. Um, but yeah, I mean I'm just very I'm always into funny ass memoirs. And I'm oh, I just read David Sederis. I The Land and Our P and Its People, or whatever it's called. That's my I mean, the second it came out, I read it. Um and I love thrillers and I love rom-coms, and I the only the only thing I really don't read is romanticy. So I should probably write one.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, obviously I will read it.
SPEAKER_03I will read it.
SPEAKER_01Literally should do it. Well, I think the consensus here is that we pretty much will read anything you write.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, got a grocery list you can send us, we'll read it.
SPEAKER_03So excellent. I do I actually do, I will send you the rom com that I wrote if you're interested. It's yes, I'm just I'm gonna have to not look at it because otherwise I'll want to edit it. But as long as you know it was written five years ago and just be like grain of salt.
SPEAKER_00No, that'd be so fun.
SPEAKER_03I yeah, love that book and it makes me mad. It's not anyone.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I would die. Yeah. I feel like you would absolutely smash a rom com.
SPEAKER_03The thing, it's called Mixed Signals from the Universe, which is a great freaking title. Yeah. And it's it's basically it's about this couple. Well, the the tagline that I wrote for it is Will They, Won't They, Should They. And it's about a girl who lands in Positano and she runs into this guy that she's been like, you know, will we, won't we for a decade with, and they have like a week to figure out if they should be together. And the flashbacks are all named after rom coms. So it's like when Nick met Kate, when it's like, it's so fucking good.
SPEAKER_01Also, I just feel like the yearning in that's gonna be topped here.
SPEAKER_03It is, and it's based on a real story, which we just off camera or a Patreon episode or something, I'll tell you the real story.
SPEAKER_00Oh okay.
SPEAKER_03Well, we're gonna end this right now so we can hear that. Yeah, I know, right? Just so you know, the the real guy is still calling me. And he's married and he has two kids.
SPEAKER_01It's crazy, it's crazy team.
SPEAKER_02But it needs to be published.
SPEAKER_01It needs to be published.
SPEAKER_00Oh, the or okay. Well, you are just such a treat. Seriously, this has been so fun for us because we just like we said, we've just been talking about you nonstop. And it's just so fun to like actually connect um face to face, even though it is over the internet. But where are you guys?
SPEAKER_02Are you in Colorado? We're in Utah.
SPEAKER_00Utah Secrets of the Uh.
SPEAKER_01Yes, no, I know.
SPEAKER_03There's some reason I might I might want to go to Utah, and I can't remember why, but maybe I'll let us know. You let us know.
SPEAKER_01Utah is beautiful. That's a great place to do. You could, you know, make your way to a swig. You know, you guys make your way to a swig.
SPEAKER_03No, make your way to a swig. I will not be doing that. I will not. I went to I went to the Mormon Wives um like uh premiere last year. Oh, okay. And uh it was insane, and they had a swig station, and I was like, it's right here, and I still will not. Mormon wives were there, it was crazy. I also watched Jen Affleck's husband put a pillow over her face. It was crazy. It was a crazy time. Anyway, you talk. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01If you come, let us know. Yeah, happy to show you around. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Well, thank you so much for joining us. As a reminder for everybody listening, Destination Funeral comes out July 21st, and we can attest that it is so great. Yeah. And I love that you said on this episode that you hope that if there's people who haven't read your book, that this just gives them a taste of who you are and helps them, you know, just enjoy your book even more so. So we just appreciate you so much. And we're so excited for all the things that may be coming next. And we're just obsessed with you. So thank you so much for joining. We'll tag this pages socials in our podcast description and show notes so you guys can follow along with her. But yeah, thank you so much.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. And you guys will have to come on my podcast soon, too. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00We'd love nothing more. We would love nothing more.