Episode 8 - Chris Dugan

Chris Dugan is a grammy winning recording engineer from Northern California. Although Chris is most known for his recordings and live Audio/Video productions with Green Day, he is a highly sought after engineer and mixer who has worked with the likes of Weezer, Alanis Morrisette, Fall Out Boy, Gaslight Anthem, Matt Nathanson, and Charger.

In this Episode of Soundwall, we discuss going from recording in garages to major studios, great microphones that don’t break the bank, using plugins, and how to set up a simple home studio for those who want to start recording their own music. Enjoy!

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Chris Dugan is a Grammy winning recording engineer from Northern California. Although Chris is most known for his recordings and live audio video productions with Green Day, he is a highly sought after engineer and mixer who has worked with the likes of Weezer, Alanis Morissette, Fallout Boy, Gaslight Anthem, Matt Nathanson, and Charger. In this episode of Soundwall, we discussed going from recording in garages to major studios, great microphones that don't break the bank, using plugins, and how to set up a simple home studio for those who want to start recording their own music. Enjoy.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

You're listening to Soundwall with Adam Schumann, presented by Danville Music, your local music store.

SPEAKER_05 0:50

Well, before we start, I want you to give Chris the uh the rundown on how to use the mic. Because I want to listen to your dumbass telegrammy winning engineer how to use a microphone before a podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

I totally even had you not said it, I would have done it too. Because that's what I do. So Chris, listen up.

SPEAKER_05 1:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

I'm gonna give I'm even gonna give you my my like uh copyrighted line. Oh, when you're in an interview and and there's other people in the studio, you you know, you tend to move around. So I want you to treat the microphone like it's the sun. And you just you gotta orbit around the sun. Your your your your voice always has to go into the sun. Yeah, yeah. And if you do that, you know, I I can fix everything else. But I can't fix when you when you turn away from the sun. It's true. It's true. See, it's not so bad, is it? I love that. It's too blue, it's too blue, it's too. Did I say that?

SPEAKER_03 1:46

I always use the beach ball analogy. Uh Rick Schreiner told me this one. Uh Rick Shriner, he it was like if you took a beach ball and you pressed it into the microphone, uh this is the a pickup pattern of a cardioid microphone. And so as you do this, you know, back here, it's not gonna pick anything up, right? So here is where it's gonna. I'm blocking You didn't listen to my tutorial, did you? Anyway, but I love that sun one. That's good. That's pretty good, dude. I may I may run with that.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

I have embarrassed myself in here doing that for for Schumann's. All of Schumann's guests know how to do this, but I'm used to a bunch of beer guys coming into the studio, and I'm like, so here's how you use it.

unknown 2:27

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_05 2:27

Well, I could not imagine a better segue. All right. Straight from Santa Ana, John Wayne Airport. Yep. Just got here. Uh Chris Dugan, um, an amazing engineer, the premier engineer in the Bay Area. Whoa. Ooh. Uh worked with Green Day, Alanis Morissette, Weezer, Fallout Boy, Gaslight Anthem, Matt Nathanson, Charger, and several more, and is uh not only a friend, but just an incredible talent and just a wealth of information. So thank you for making this time.

SPEAKER_03 3:00

Thanks for having me, buddy. Yeah, this is awesome. Thanks for being here, Justin. For driving.

SPEAKER_05 3:06

With us is a Justin from the Hop Grenade, which is where we're recording uh the best tap room in Concord.

SPEAKER_03 3:12

Hmm. I agree. Thank you. How many do we have on tap here?

SPEAKER_02 3:18

Uh 21 on tap, and about another hundred, hundred and fifty in cans and bottles. Wow. Yeah. Holy smokes. We love our beer and wine here.

SPEAKER_05 3:28

Oh, yeah. So I I start every podcast with tell me about the first time you fell in love with music.

SPEAKER_03 3:35

Music. Um you know, I I think it was just being a kid and my mom playing music around the house. I I it was catchy music, I would sing along, that kind of thing. I think when I became a fan of music was kind of when I think uh i it it I got locked into it. I became this uh just a fan. And I think that was hearing like the older kids playing this like scary we c you know we devil music, right? Ozzy Osbourne and and this, you know, Black Sabbath and and these kinds of songs and uh that sort of caught my attention. Anything guitar driven. So Van Halen for me was an early, you know, uh doorway. And I think you know, this was before MTV, so we I didn't really know what was going on. It was it was more like you had a a pile of your collection of cassettes or records. I had both, and and you kind of asked your friends, what do you have? What do you have? You know, let's bar let's trade and we'll you know share some stuff. So that was kind of like the start of it. And I was thinking about this because I'm I've got daughters who are into music and and who are starting to listen and they're they're finding their favorite artists and stuff. And um when I was a kid, man, I had like a poster on the wall. And it was like that was the closest thing I had to like sort of knowing what this person was and who they were, you know, we didn't have MTV. MTV kicked in, and then all of a sudden, sort of everything was like, oh, okay, look at this. This was like, and I've you know, I had friends gravitate towards sports, and I did too for a little bit, and you know, they found their way in that world, and I I sort of went, okay, this is speaks to me more so. And um so at a young age, just just sort of going through those early records and cassettes, um sucked me in. And then before you know it, I'm like, I gotta play an instrument, you know, I gotta pick up guitar. I was really into electric guitars, and uh a friend had one and I got to hold one. That was a big deal, you know. Because they they they seemed like kind of untouchable in the little town that I grew up in. Uh and there turned out to be these two music stores that had a ton of them. So I'd start going to music stores and stuff. So probably around the age of eight, nine, I kinda got the bug about music. Um but yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:02

What music stores did you have that you were going to? Was it Gills?

SPEAKER_03 6:05

Yeah, there was Gills. Well I ended up working at Gills for a number of years. Uh but there was Webb's music too, right? Uh and Webb had been around forever, right? He was like he was the guy that was rooted, right, in downtown Antioch. And um sorry, I took my first drum lesson, I think it was, and uh um but yeah, they had Fender, they had Gibson, he made his own amps, the Web Amps, really big for pedal steel players, I guess. Um super clean, you know, sounding. Um and then uh yeah, and then there was Gills and I ended up working there. Um and he had a shop out in Pleasant Hill out here that I used to work at.

SPEAKER_05 6:46

Cool.

SPEAKER_03 6:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:48

So So did you play in any of the school bands? Did you do any jazz band, any of that stuff?

SPEAKER_03 6:53

Yeah, I did. I that that's kind of where where it kind of started for me. It was in fifth grade. Um I got the you know, the the music teacher would come around to classes and oh who wants to play an instrument? And at the time I uh my older brother had played sax, so it seemed appealing to me, oh play sax or something. And uh if I remember this correctly, it was the they would take you out of class for to to do these sort of lessons. And it was based on the instrument, so maybe you know, all the woodwinds or something would leave together, and then uh other instruments or strings would probably go at a different time. And I think mine was after school was drums was an option, and I think that was easier for me or something. So I was like, Oh, I'll try drums. And uh in the back of my brain, I'm like, this is band music, so I know this isn't what's hanging on my wall, right? It's not rock and roll. But if it's drums, just maybe, you know, maybe this could cross over, right? Maybe I could it could lead somewhere, you know, and and uh what I ended up learning was you know the marching stuff, right? You standing up, there was a bass player, somebody playing the bass drum, a couple people playing snare drums. Um, and it was great. And then those two guys, there were three of us, those two guys bailed. They're like, I'm not into band. And then not doing rudiments. Right, totally. It was just it was a little silly, but it was fun. I found it fun. I I was like, okay, I get it. I'm gonna do this. And and those two bailed, and we had this concert, and the music teacher goes, It's it's a really funny moment because I remember it very vividly. But the teacher goes, Okay, here's these songs. We have no one to play the bass drum, and we need both. We need the bass and the snare drum. So, how do we do both? And she goes, Chris, I have an option for you. And she pulled back this curtain, and here was this gold drum set. And I was like, Oh, it's happening.

SPEAKER_05 8:50

It's like lights shining.

SPEAKER_03 8:52

Oh, exactly. The angels came down and sang, it was great. And like I saw it and I went, Oh my god, a real drum set. Like, I didn't even know this was here at the school. Like, this is awesome. You mean I get to, and she goes, You if you can play that, we can do the two parts. It's kick and snare. And there happened to be these other drums that come with it, right? And and so I learned pretty quick. She let me sort of practice, and you know, boom, pop, boom, pop, boom. It was just very, you know, simple stuff. But it I I was able to do it and I was able to perform with the band where the band got to play and whatever, and and then I was I was in. I'm like, Mom and dad, I need a drum set. And they're like, Oh god. Not a drum set. You know, but that that's where it started, uh, for drumming, you know. So were any of your parents musicians? Yeah, my dad played drums, funny enough. So uh he had a snare drum that he was like, check it out, and um he he he showed me some stuff and it was great.

SPEAKER_05 9:53

So awesome, awesome so so you so you learned that that's elementary school level. Yeah. And then um in high school, did you play with any rock bands and then had that transfer over to outside of high school?

SPEAKER_03 10:07

Yeah, like uh junior high. I started playing with a a buddy of mine who was in the band, he was a trumpet player, and he's like, I have this guitar. And I was like, You have an electric guitar? Do you have an amp? He's like, Yeah. It was like this big, you know, tiny. But he's like that's your resume. Oh yeah, yeah, you're in. Let's we gotta jam. And that's what we would start doing, and he'd come over, uh, my buddy Gene, great guy, and we would sit and like it was it was on. Like I had a drum set, he had an amp. We were actually, you know, jamming, and that led to getting in bands later. And uh funny enough, side story, but while we're sitting there making noise in my bedroom, my next door neighbor is this older guy, uh, had a four-track, and he said to me, I will never forget this, he's like, You guys should record on my four track. Do you know what a four-track is? And I was like, No, what's that? Well, it's a cassette player, and you can record here, and then you can add stuff, you can add stuff, and you can mix down, you can do all this stuff. And we were like, whoa. And as soon as we got it to work, we sort of he he gave me a little lesson on it, but was it a task camera?

SPEAKER_05 11:16

Okay, cool, cool. Yeah, it was a Porta Studio 424?

SPEAKER_03 11:19

And it wasn't that wasn't even out yet. This was like a something one, I believe, but they have these circular knobs. I'll never forget the I can look it up, but regardless, it was like we we, you know, we put a mic in front of the drums and then a mic in front of his amp, and we sort of just played something. And then we did the let's overdub something, and it we did another guitar part, and it it was kind of funny how it blew our minds. We were like, I can't believe this is happening. We can do anything, we can put vocals down, we can wow, you know, and so we would just constantly do that. And the poor guy, like I would I I was that annoying kid knocking on the door, gonna borrow your four track again, and I could hold on to it for like a week, you know, just but we would constantly use it, and then I, you know, I was smart enough to go and try to find my own, and I did, and but that's how I got into as I was, you know, jamming with my buddy, uh, we were learning about recording and the possibilities of that, right? So and then got into bands with with people and that that flourished in high school for sure.

SPEAKER_05 12:20

So were you as excited to g delve into the recording technology as playing drums at that time?

SPEAKER_03 12:27

It was it was exciting when I was younger, but I I started like the the idea of we together him and I got into a band. There was another band who lost their drummer, and they were like, Hey, why don't you come in and why don't we bring Gene? We could use another guitar player. We sort of like it we got into this like what we considered a serious band. There was more people, you know, and they had a following, and and so I started to just get into I mean that was more like now we're playing, so I I think the recording sort of fell to the side. We would we went to like this local studio or this guy who had a little studio uh who recorded us, and we eventually went to a a nice studio. But every time I was in that environment, it was really cool. Like I was super I loved that idea of being able to play something and hear it back and it sounding cool, right? And like, whoa, the playback was fun. Or sometimes eye-opening, you're like, ugh, I really you know, screwed up there or whatever, right? Like but uh I enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_05 13:26

Okay, so so you're you're getting to meet people who work in studios. So tell me about the jump from going from there to I I know um I knew you from working with Willie Samuels at Newtone. Yeah. So tell me how it went from taking that little, you know, task cam to getting to where you own your own studio. Did you start talking to the other engineers and start getting bigger and bigger ideas, or how did that work?

SPEAKER_03 13:55

It's it's funny, like uh uh as those bands sort of dissolved. I, you know, I'm I'm getting older, I'm out of high school. Um and I'm in another project with with a couple other friends, and you know, we we just had an eight-track. I think I think my buddy's brother had it. It was a it was a reel to reel. So it sort of just came it we always had a way to record. So we would always set up and rehearse, but we've we started with that little that band. It wasn't really fully a well it was a it became a band, but uh we we would record a lot. So we were doing this like let's write a song, let's record it, let's write a song, let's record it. And it was always I just was the guy running stuff because I just kind of knew how to do it. Um and we would sort of put our money together and buy little things, um, you know, buy a mic here, buy a whatever there.

SPEAKER_05 14:48

Um so describe your mic collection evolution. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 14:53

Well, it starts just like anyone's, right? It starts with SM58s or some version of that, even a cheaper version of that, right? And oh, I remember uh AKG came out with the D-112. When that came out, uh I happened to buy, and I don't even remember where I bought it from, uh, but it came with two little mini uh clip-on mics. So it was like a package, right? So like you, you know, for your tom, maybe it was three of them, and they looked just like the D-112s. It's really funny thinking back on it, but that was a big day. I was like, I have a real kick mic, you know, but then I have these little clip-ons and they sounded horrible. But the kick mic was great, right? We had a real thing. So anyway, that's it started there. Um, and around that specific time, I was doing all that, so I had this rehearsal spot, which later became Newtone, and I had started um up at LMC, and I was taking those classes up there and uh ran into Willie there. And Willie was doing the exact same thing as me, only he was out here in Concord with in his rehearsal spot, recording his bands, and both of us had at that point jumped up to eight ads, right? Digital, digital audio.

SPEAKER_05 16:07

Um Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna stop you just for a second for clarification for the folks back home. So LMC is Las Medanas College, that's right, junior college in Pittsburgh. And when I mentioned Newtone, it's a it's a spot I recorded and that's how I got to know Chris. Yeah. Um it was an ex munitions depot. That's right. Because because um it's in Pittsburgh, California. And to give you a lay of the land, um it's very close to the Delta. Yeah. And the reason that that matters is because um there's Concord Naval Weapons Station, and so within the Delta and California's East Bay area, there's a lot of those sort of places. Uh it became a place where we wanted to have military supplies that had a way to get to San Francisco quickly and easily. And so you guys found these old spots that you had mechanic shops next to you.

SPEAKER_03 17:05

Yeah. Well, we had a cabinet shop. A cabinet shop, okay. Saws. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 17:10

Yeah. And they keep threatening to sell the place and it just for 20 25 years.

SPEAKER_03 17:15

Oh yeah. So yeah, forever, forever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 17:17

So sorry for interrupting. No, that was a great explanation. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 17:20

Yeah, it's just old, old, old wooden warehouses, basically.

SPEAKER_05 17:23

Cool. So so you and Willie, um, I know the Samuels family family very well. Yeah. You know, Jeff Samuels was one of my groomsmen. That's right. And uh so so you and Willie decided to start your shop. Yeah. And so you had to get into construction too, I imagine, right? Or did you have somebody do it?

SPEAKER_03 17:41

Or we never got into it. I I I think technically we I I guess physically we got into it. We never learned anything about it, but we we just did it. It was horrible, but it worked. So yeah. Um yeah, so we met in in in the courses up there, the recording arts program, which is a great program. Um, and yeah, he had his exact scenario, I had mine, they were both the same, and we got to talking. I'm like, oh, you do the same thing. Oh, okay, yeah. You should come by and check out my place. It's just down the street from the the school. So he comes by, he's like, This place is great, it's huge. And, you know, one thing I was like, why don't you move in? Bring in your stuff, we'll put it together. Now we'll have, you know, 32 tracks instead of 16 each, right? Or whatever it was. Uh I think I might have he might have had two. I'd won. Regardless, let's put our stuff together and we'll have we were just looking for the highest track count, right? Right. Because we the more tracks we get, the more like we can just do more things, right? Like, and and so uh that was how it started. And uh, oh, and he had mics too. Like, let's put it all together, and that's what happened. And then uh we built, you know, the little control room I have was a little office, and we just expanded it and we did that kind of stuff. And and next thing you know, you know, his friends are calling, my friends are calling, uh my friends' bands are breaking up, his friends' bands are breaking up, they're all joining bands with each other. The scene started, it was really cool to watch too. Uh the scene kind of exploded, uh, and we happened to be right in the middle of it. It was fun.

SPEAKER_05 19:19

Yeah, particularly the East Bay punk scene. You guys had a ton of guys coming. We did from all over. Yeah. Do you have any off the top of your head some uh some of the guys that would do demos?

SPEAKER_03 19:29

Um, yeah, I mean, well, there's this band called Divot, you know, uh that Willie worked with a lot. Um we we got a lot of business from Adeline Records, uh, which is sort of how I end up working with the Green Day guys, but that's around that time that label was starting, and so we got a ton of stuff thrown our way. Um yeah, um all sorts of people. Uh I gotta rack my brain. But I recorded some guys called a press logic uh from way back when. Um there was uh Sam AM did a thing uh which was pretty fun. That was my first time working with them. Um yeah, all sorts of people. And Willie had a ton of people. Um yeah, I don't know, go back a ways in that.

SPEAKER_05 20:23

Right? So you're doing blinking. So and that's the experience doing that just gets you clearly better and better in engineering. And I and I will say a lot of my favorite engineers end up being drummers. And I'm same with me. And I I have a I have a my hypothesis is gonna be that it's pretty easy to record guitars, but getting a proper I mean, if you've got a good tone and you put a 57, you're good. But properly recording drum sets. Yeah. It's that's an art. You have to have the right room and you have to know what you're doing to make sure nothing goes out of phase and things get funky, right? Yeah. A lot more of a science to it.

SPEAKER_03 21:03

There's just more I mean there's more mics, right? It's the most mics on a in our type of music, it's the most mics uh uh on a single instrument, right? So you know it it takes a lot. And and you you know, sometimes a lot of mics is cool, sometimes little is cool too, but I think it's just how you sort of learn to to and the drums are always so temperamental. I mean they're everyone's drum kit can sound so different. And to sort of pull characteristics out of a drum set that we want for like you know, loud music and it's it's sometimes hard. You gotta sort of learn I found learn these these tricks. Um but yeah, I agree with you. Like that's always been my mindset.

SPEAKER_05 21:48

I I I also would throw this out there too. If you have an internet that can kindly say, Hey, do you mind if I tune this just a little? Yeah, that helps.

SPEAKER_03 21:57

I mean, that's the ultimate tool. I remember trying. Trying, I would, I would spend hours like messing with EQ. Like, I need a better EQ to make this drum sound better. But but when you realize, like, and this goes across the board for any instrument, if you got the sound ready and the amp is healthy and the speakers are working, right, and everything is nice, you're miles ahead. You're miles ahead. And then of course, the more important thing is the person actually playing it is super on top of their game. It's even better. So um but uh you know, you cut your teeth. I was young, bands were young, and so it was a it was a push-pull helpful handshake learning experience, right? When when I was younger. So um yeah.

SPEAKER_05 22:45

Cool. So let's talk about so you're doing engineering, you're playing some with some punk bands that are that are revered in the area, at least, and and have a big underground following. Tell me about your jump from doing that to starting to record Green Day.

SPEAKER_03 23:03

Um it was it was uh it started uh in an individual sort of way between the the band Green Day in in in the sense of the members. So it started with this. Sam I am came in to do a song for a a comp and they didn't have a drummer, and so they asked Trey to play. So Trey m came all the way out with his drum kit and set up, and I was like, holy crap, you have Trey in your band? Okay, cool, this'll be great. Uh I was a fan of his drumming and and the sounds of his drums. Man, I can't tell you like how much we chased a lot of their recordings just to make drums sound that punchy, you're right. And so it was this was really cool for me, speaking of drums.

SPEAKER_05 23:43

But did you find that he he knew exactly what he was doing, tuning his drums? I imagine he's the sort of guy who does.

SPEAKER_03 23:48

Yeah, he was like he'd done it already a bunch, you know, with like some really talented engineers and people, right? So he knew what to do. Uh and so uh that was that experience. So I'd recorded him, um, and then um Mike had a side band uh that he was in called The Frustrators that I'd re worked with, and so they needed a studio, they came in. I and I actually I take the back, I recorded the Frustrators first record at Billy Joe's studio at his old house, and um and so that's where I met Mike and all those guys, um, and then uh Billy had me coming over to his house to record, and he was producing a lot of bands for his record, so he would come I would just work at his studio, and uh so it was sort of on these like remote sort of things, and it wasn't until you know they hit the studio to quote unquote do some demoing. Hey, we're gonna go into the studio for like a week. Would you want to come and engineer it? And I was like, Yeah, sure. And I took a week off by day job, and it was gonna be during the day. At the time I was working a couple jobs to sort of make ends meet as I was recording on nights and weekends and this kind of thing. So I took a week off and and it was like, hey, we're gonna stay another week. We're gonna stay another week. And that that turned into basically like a year and a half, I forget, probably about a year and a half of of of uh, you know, writing the American Idiot Record. That's what it ended up becoming. Wow. And so then I was in the studio and now I'm like working with all the guys. So it started with just individual, you know, and then uh yeah, and it was working with them.

SPEAKER_05 25:34

Did you have any inclination that this was going to turn out to be one of the biggest records of the time?

SPEAKER_03 25:40

No. It's a it's so funny. It's it's such a it's a it's a it is a funny story because it starts out as like we just want to demo, we have these songs, let's just get them down. Um I was more like it super stoked to be at studio 880, that's where it was, in this you know, working on an SSL. I was like, yes, finally, you know, look at this, you know, and um and so that was a that was a fun thing for me. And well, I mean, I'm not saying working with the band wasn't fun, that was amazing too. Uh I my brain was on like okay, I'm just gonna record. I'm engineer mode. And as the weeks went on, um the it was it's just funny thinking back on it because they those guys were like, you know what? Let's let's do something fun. Let's let's let's get some go-karts. Uh it turned it was so it's hard to describe, but it was just a fun experience that just melted into this like, let's take a break and go do something nuts really quick. And now let's come back to the studio and I've got an idea for a song. And all of a sudden out comes this song, and everyone's like, where did that come from? Uh cool, this is great. And so, you know, all this stuff kind of progressed into that kind of world. Um they like straight up story about they have a song called Jesus of Suburbia. This is call it a rock opera, if you will. There's all these different sort of parts to it. And it started with, you know, our buddy Kenny saying something like, Hey, write a 10-second song, you know, we'll be back. He was running to the store to buy batteries for our go-karts or something like that. And Mike, we Mike was the only one there. He was the first one there that morning. He's like, I can do that. So we ran out and recorded a drum part really quick, you know, played guitar, sang on it, and we had like this little 30-second jam. And the next guy in the studio was Trey, or maybe it was Billy, and he's like, Oh, I'll I'll connect to that. It reminded me of when I was a kid. I used to, you know, you used to draw pictures and then you attach a piece of paper and continue this the picture. I don't know. I used to do that. Yeah. And then that's what was happening. And like it was like, you know, Trey, then we wait around, Trey, it's your turn. For what? Come listen, you know. Oh, okay, because this is cool, and then another one. And it was all in fun, it was all like this, like, you know, super like no pressure. And as it was really awesome, but as these songs were getting added on, the more serious they were getting, sort of. I wouldn't say serious, it's just they became more epic, all these little sections, you know. Let's add a piano, let's add a timpany, or let's add like things started getting more and we would listen and we would, you know, I don't know, I don't remember how many days it was. It wasn't we didn't spend a ton of time, but we would certainly over that chorus, we would sit and every day we'd listen from the start and listen to what we created, you know, and and it was just it was fun. It was fun to watch that. And then next thing you know, someone was like, Should we should we get up that corny bit, the funny thing where we're saying the the goofy stuff and maybe put something else in there? Let's try that. And then it's turned into this monster. And I mean that monster a good thing.

SPEAKER_05 28:47

Like Yeah. Yeah. Well, do do you feel like there was there one defining moment where you kind of said, It feels like now I'm part of something, like this is gonna be big? Or was it like a slow roll?

SPEAKER_03 28:59

It was it I think I think for those guys, like when they they sort of saw that, uh looking back on it, I wasn't aware of it. I didn't really know how those guys operated and and their their speed, but I I'm I'm sure that I they all were like, uh oh, we just tapped into something kind of amazing. Is this cool? I I remember them being like, Is this cool? Like, is this right? And uh and you know, them going, Yeah, this is awesome, and and pushing forward. Let's follow this for a moment, like or something like that, right? Like, let's go down this road. And um Yeah, I watched them do it and more songs came and um it was great.

SPEAKER_05 29:41

Was there an outside producer or did they decide at some point to say maybe we should get another set of eyes on this?

SPEAKER_03 29:47

Yeah, later um Rob Cavallo came in and it was my first time working with him. I was super nervous. What a great guy. He was super he was super cool. And uh and yeah, I got to watch him work and that was pretty pretty fun and and a great experience. And and he came in and and and sort of like stoked the fires and maybe rained in a few things here and there. I just watched him and everything's just naturally took off at that point, you know, and it was great. And so he was there for a big big chunk of the very tail end of it. So you know, we all the songs had been recorded in one fashion or another, and you know, he's a really fun guy to work with because he's uh I can say this for the band too, they they're really into the recording process as well, which I found something really cool and common. Like we could sit in the control room and talk about stuff and and everyone would be down, like everybody's on the same wavelength. Everybody wants like is that is that snare drum right? Should we make sure it sounds good? Should we tweak it? You know, I nobody really in my past had cared they they want it to sound good, but they would take the time to stop and go, is this right? Should we change this? And I'd be like, I yeah, that's a great idea. Let's try that. And collectively making some cool decisions in my world, which was fun. Rob was the exact same way, loved to get in his hands dirty with mics and sounds, and it was cool because everybody was kind of pushing each other to do cool things. Like we tried to get the biggest room sound we could on the drums in that room. It was crazy. We just kept like at one point we pulled down all of the wall treatment, and then we were like, Jesus, this is crazy, you know. Just kept pushing and pushing, you know. It was cool.

SPEAKER_05 31:38

That's cool. Um I'm I'm I find after interviewing several people on how to record, um the the common threads are it seems like the combination of curiosity and competency goes a very, very, very long way.

SPEAKER_03 31:54

I think so.

SPEAKER_05 31:55

And um and having guys who have been together since they were very young, that comfort level, it can either go one of two ways. It can either be like, you know, they say in brothers' bands, they either love each other or they can't stand each other. Right. So what a what a cool environment to be able to work with in.

SPEAKER_03 32:13

There's there's one more element to that, I think, and and sometimes it's the um the unexplored sort of places you can go, like if you get thrown a a a curveball with something, you know, like um that helps, I think, because you you know we did a project called the Foxborough Hot Tubs, which started I remember started because we uh a friend of ours had a Task M 388, it was an old quarter inch eight track. We're like, that is cool, let's set it up, and I set it up in the room, and it was really just a couple mics on the drums, and it was like let's record, you know, we were listening to it and we're getting into wow, this is really awesome. And I remember Billy being like super inspired by this sort of lo-fi garage sound, and he's like, Let's record something, and I was like, Cool, let me set up the drum mics. And I remember him going, nah, just leave it the way it is. And I'm like, wait, whoa, there's only like three mics, that's not cool, you know. And I'm thinking like, again, I'm like, I'm recording Green Day, and this is being a long time ago. I I have to put up all this stuff, and and I remember him going, No, no, let's keep it simple. And and and me having to work with that. I remember being a little like, oh man, you know, and it was great, and I'm glad I got thrown that 'cause I it was cool to be limited in a certain way, well limited in my brain to sort of make everything sort of work and gel and work and uh it ended being one of my favorite records like to to to look back on and be like super proud of because it was just a curveball, it was small. We had to keep everything down, eight tracks.

SPEAKER_05 33:52

Um so hopefully I can I can quantize this because John Bonham, Ringo, they all had like three mics at at best, right? Yep. And I've heard uh the fill from In the Air Tonight was maybe one or two mics. Oh, okay. And maybe I'm mistaken, and it was pointed towards the corner of a wall or something like that. I so I think as an artist, as I talk to more and more of them, it's it's kind of like you have to not think about how much control you want to have over it versus how good the performance is and whether that lo-fi is appropriate for the style or not. Yeah. So is that uh do you find that like as you're working on more and more project projects, do you have to have an out-of-body experience to where you're like, okay, so I want to have this, but w what's the style I'm going for and how do I attain that? And you you also seem like a kind of guy who's like very okay with like happy accidents.

SPEAKER_03 34:56

Yeah, I mean that that's that's what I think uh I was that's a what I should have called my curveball analogy, but yeah, happy accidents is is pretty awesome. I think uh, and I've done this my whole career, I've overthought what I need to do at the beginning of a session. I do it every time. I'm like, I need to set up because I'm gonna do this, I have to go in with this this in mind. And what I found is when uh artist friends of mine send me their music that maybe they've done in their bedroom or they've done on a on a different scale. It's not like in a professional room or anything. Um, that they'll send me some stuff and I'll go, whoa, how did you get that sound? What is that? Oh, that's just this thing. I didn't have you know what I had. I just had this SM58 for the drums. I'm like, that's one mic? Wow. And sometimes I find myself I've been asked to like, hey, we need to make a sound that sounds like this, and I'll take what I have and I'll do all this work to make it sound a certain way, where I don't allow myself to go, you know, um down the road of like, well, let's just do it with one mic. Let's just I mean you I've seen people do it, and that's a talent that I think is super important, where you're not thinking too much about this. I need to be very specific about how I do things. I think there's a time and a place for that. Um, but I also think that you go, I'm just gonna throw a mic up in that amp room. I'm not gonna mic the cab. I'm just gonna throw a mic in there because this is already a cool sound, and I know that this will work. If I would have done that, you know, seven years ago, I would have been, no hell no. I have to get this mic perfectly on that speaker. Um, because later I'm gonna tweak it or I'm gonna do a thing that I can, you know, adjust it or something. It's you gotta like throw that kind of stuff to the wind, the the overthinking it, I think. I think that's something that's really important because I see artists who do it and they don't think about that.

SPEAKER_05 36:55

It seems it seems like a cruel joke life plays on you. Because in order to be an engineer, you have to be kind of like OTV. So you have to you have to engage in the industry that is all about attachment and attachment to the song and attachment to emotions, and then you have to detach yourself to do it in a cool way. One that's cool and acceptable and low-fi.

SPEAKER_03 37:14

Yeah, I mean, I I think so. Because uh the the way I see my friends doing it is they're not spending the time, they're getting their their stuff recorded, they're getting their art down, they're getting uh their song recorded, and in that process, they might have done something I consider wow, that's amazing, but they just did it really fast and it came out great. And so um that's something I you know I I try to work really hard at employing in my world uh as well, because if there was a time thing, you don't want to take too long and ready, you don't want to like be too anal about stuff. Or if you are you do it without anyone, you know, standing around, which is a you know could be a problem, but so right.

SPEAKER_05 38:01

Um I also if I can fanboy out on you for just a second, Butch Vig. Oh man, yeah, Butch. Some of my favorite albums. Yeah, like Gish, Siamese Dream. Oh Clearly Nevermind. Tell me about your experience with working with Butch, because I I I imagine like obviously working with Green Day had to be just an amazing, amazing experience. But then once you have that on your resume, I imagine you get a lot of phone calls.

SPEAKER_03 38:29

So dude, Butch is awesome, he's so chill and just so laid back and like uh and so like down to earth. And you know, I I think just coming from my world of where I came through music, how I ended up where I'm at, I worked in music stores. You you probably I know you do this when we think about I'm gonna sidetrack for a moment, but I'll come back. When we think about gear, and we think about maybe I think about microphones and preamps, but pedals and cables. We are so zeroed in on what's the coolest thing and what's the right thing, right? I mean, it's always changing, and we're always like, I mean, I guess car guys do it. Maybe people in sports do it about their you know, their cleats or their shoes or pads, or I don't know. But I feel like in music it's really intense. Like you we think about the coolest, oldest, hippist vintage, right? And reasons why they're cool.

SPEAKER_05 39:30

Right. And and well I I will tell people, you know, doing the research is great. Like, and I'll I I think this will be very analogous to recording. Yep. Like we'll talk about uh for guitar players, the the the holy grail is the overdrive pedal. You find that overdrive pedal. Yep. And what I have found is that you should do your research, but then don't be dogmatic about it. So I'll give you an example. I I had something that was uh I had an original Klon overdrive pedal. OG one. Yeah. Wow. You which back in the day, this is like back in the early 2000s, it wasn't you can order it online, you had to call a number, and it was Bill Finnegan. Okay, the guy who built these fucking things, right? And they were great. And and he would he talk to me for an hour, and he was just super sweetheart. And he would just ask me, he was like, What are you using? Like sort of gear, like like, are you using something chic? Not gonna fucking sell it to you. Yeah, but he's qualifying you. Exactly. I'm like, I got an old super reverb with my dad's and and I'm using like Les Paul's and and he's like, okay, this is what it does, is when was it that this is what it does not do. Yeah, cool. And and he and he's and after I talked to him, he's like, Yeah, I think you'll like it. So I got this overdrive and I loved it. It sounded great. But there's there's something about your own personal tone to where you can chase that overdrive pedal, and um, the clon was amazing, but I found overdrive pedals that sounded a little bit better for me.

SPEAKER_03 41:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:05

Yeah. Whether it be through the way I play, how hard I I attack, and um, you know, the expression it's not the it's not the axe, it's the lumberjack. But but I I think I think overdrive pedals, and I imagine uh by and large in recording it's the same way, to where um I I always give the example when I'm selling an overdrive pedal at my store, like, okay, so um the overdrive pedal is gonna be personal, so start with what you know and start with what your guys like, but then be okay with A being it. Yeah. And the example I give is like an overdrive pedal is kind of like a microphone for uh uh vocalists. Um there are you know, there's the Beatles will use the U67s and these very expensive tube German-made microphones. However, something that Bono and Michael Jackson have in common is they use NSM7. Yeah, they can afford anything they want, but for um human beings are fallible, and you have to identify what's gonna make what equipment will make your infallible sound better. And sometimes it's not what you think it will be. Yeah. And that example is like, you know, with Michael Jackson and Bono, they could afford any microphone they want on the planet, but it doesn't matter because that's not what works for them. Yeah. You know, do you have equipment that'll help you? Yeah. And uh equipment that'll kind of uh put a spotlight on some of the stuff that maybe is not your favorite part of your tone. Yeah. So with recording I mean now you're doing that with five or six people, right?

SPEAKER_03 42:40

Just go down the signal chain. It's like it starts at the cable, you know, and then it goes to the you know, the mic, the cable, and then the pre-amp and the EQ and the thing, right? And there's so many nerdy, geeky geek points, right? That we can all geek out on. And it's just the same in guitars, you know, the amp, the wiring. Do you shield the inside of your guitar or not? Like, well, of course I do, but I use this only kind of you know, copper tape or whatever, right? Like, you know, like we can go down that road. And and so back to your Butch Vig question, like he's been that he's been in that world his whole life, as as I have, obviously. So, and I know some other fantastic people who are the same way. Like, as soon as I start talking about gear or they start talking about gear, immediately this great dialogue opens up. We can just nerd out. Yeah. And Butch Vig had a term for it, he called it danning out. Steely Dan. Steely Dan would would would spend hours just getting a sound, and he would call it danning out. And so he's like, Oh, you want to dan out on on equipment? Sure, you know, and and then if we were working too hard on a on a tone, we were like getting guitars, we're spending too much time, he'd like you guys are really danning out on that. Like, should we uh you know and sometimes he would dan out for a long time, which was awesome. But so you had

SPEAKER_05 44:00

Butchvik calling you out on Danning Island.

SPEAKER_03 44:02

Which is kind of awesome. Yeah, because he would like sometimes we had to like pump the brakes, you know, and it was but super cool dude, man. He was so much fun and so easy and just laid back. It was always always a good time with him.

SPEAKER_05 44:15

But you but you seem like the chase, the chase for getting that is is part of the fun too, right?

SPEAKER_03 44:20

Yeah. I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:22

And and and it's uh I imagine you have to part of your job is identifying right away. Is this band cool with doing the chase? Or they're just like, fuck it, we just want to like roll and play and we're out.

SPEAKER_03 44:33

Yeah. So Green Day, my band, like they don't I I know they're used to doing it. Like we would they're down. But there was a point I remember Mank in 21st century where we were just we I think we had like seven or eight guitar amps maybe going at once, you know, because we were trying to do something. And I remember finally, I think it was Billy who was like, you know, you guys are danning out a little too much for us right now. I'm gonna go home. I'll come back tomorrow. By then, maybe you have it. And I remember us kind of like, uh oh, I think we've we've crossed the dam mark. So we should reel it back in.

SPEAKER_05 45:08

The dam has exploded.

SPEAKER_03 45:09

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But he's a cool guy, and you know, another great guy got to be around with crystal algae, and he's just phenomenal to watch work. And when you get him talking about equipment, forget it. Like it's just it's great. He's like an encyclopedia. You know, if I could ask that guy like questions, like you know, somebody should just quiz that guy on gear because he knows so much about everything. It's cool to hear his take on stuff.

SPEAKER_05 45:37

And like well, clearly he has all sorts of stuff on waves, like his own settings and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03 45:42

Yeah, and they're great, they're fun.

SPEAKER_05 45:44

There should be a secret handshake where it's like, okay, we're cool with gear or we're not cool with gear.

SPEAKER_03 45:48

Yeah, yeah. I mean, see, that's the thing. It's like everybody in this world, I'm not gonna say everyone, but just I think for some I don't know how it happened, but we're all in that nerd spot. I think it comes from starting as being a musician, because like, you know, I was like nerding out on what kind of drumsticks I need to play, right? And then what kind of heads I need to put on my drums, you know, and then it just you know ballooned from there.

SPEAKER_05 46:14

Well, it I I it doesn't make a difference. I mean, I I get to play thousands of guitars, you know, having a music store, but like um, I mean, even the the thickness of your pick makes a difference. See, I've done that. Yeah, I know, I know, I know, but but you know, um, I have found as a general rule, the better a musician you are, the less your equipment matters. Exactly. Because you can you can have like, and um when I reached the point to where I was trying two different amplifiers, and that was I have a harding harder and harder time feeling a difference. I'm like, okay, I think I'm getting better at guitar now. Totally, totally. I I I listened to a uh Billy Corgan podcast with Zach Wilde. I caught some of that. Yeah, man, and and he was just saying, you know what? Like when I was going on a G4 tour, and he was like Nuno Benton Court and like all these crazy guitar players, he's like I could listen to them rehearsing in their dressing room, and I and within three notes I knew exactly who it was. That's right, because they have that sound, yeah. And Mike Campbell from Tom Petty, like one of my favorite tones ever. Absolutely. He calls it bone tone, like you have your own natural thing. But it's it's always good to do the search, but you know, you you get used to what you're used to, and and if you weren't inquisitive, then you probably wouldn't be any good at your craft, right?

SPEAKER_03 47:32

That's right, that's right. But and it's funny if we were to ask ourselves about that sort of concept back 10, 15, 20 years ago, we'd be like, no man, I need a you know, half stack, blah blah blah blah blah blah with the extra supreme, you know, angel dust on the side with the sprinkle of the thing. That's how I'm gonna sound better here. Right. It's like you know, it's interesting. But that's in my world too. It's like, you know, do I need this high-end microphone? You know, do I need this fancy old preamp and uh the vintage stuff? Like, or can I just do it with this, you know? And I've done I've done some pretty cool things on both, actually, funny enough.

SPEAKER_05 48:12

So I imagine not like maybe not with great intent, but you have an idea of what the frequency response is gonna be. And once you hear somebody sing, you're like, I get this gut feeling that this is gonna be the right microphone, right?

SPEAKER_03 48:26

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know what a mic can do. Well, I I've I've heard enough or some enough to know that, yeah, okay, this person will be great on this mic. It's a good starting point. And in my brain, I already have like a probably a list of like, you know, this these mic anywhere in this range of mics is gonna be great for this person. Um what's really fun is when you find the right mic for someone and you're in the mixing stage, right, and everything's going and your voice the vocals are in there and you're like, wow, I don't have to do much. This this was the perfect recipe, you know. Or like 50 or SM7s, for instance, like those are great mics because they're kind of like a a bulletproof, like I don't know, they they they take EQ well, which is another thing I've learned over the years, like if you just go with something sort of simple, there's certain you know, mics or preamps uh or pieces of the chain that that do well later when you need to alter them. And maybe with EQ or maybe with compression, they there's a there's a thing that happens, and uh you know you don't get you know the opposite would be getting very harsh sounds and or maybe a little cloudy muddy sound later, but um you know they can be any mics, they don't have to be a vintage, you know, U47 or something that's you know super super super expensive, you know. So cool.

SPEAKER_05 49:52

Well, um I think we're we're just about the time to take a break. Sounds good. And I think when we come back, I'd like to talk to you because clearly you've been in the trenches with the bare minimum stuff and then up to unlimited budget. So I think a lot of the people have asked me in my store like, how can I build a home studio and try to make a recording as best I can, get some starting points and get your opinions on that. So let's uh take a break and then we'll be right back. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 50:20

Your music. Your local store quality music, right here, music, your local music store.

SPEAKER_05 50:33

And we are back with Chris Dugan here at the Hop Grenade in Concord. And um the amount of accolades you have and the amount of recordings you've done has been impressive. But um, because you started out with humble beginnings, I have so many people in my store who will ask how to get started in home recording. So uh if you don't mind, we'll ask you to scale down and talk about if you're just starting now, the sort of avenues you would try to um basically go down and and and the sort of equipment you can do if you're a really good musician and you want to get your start.

unknown 51:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 51:18

What sort of gear do you think you would start to gravitate towards? The first thing to get a hold of would be um something in the interface with your computer. Yeah. Like a focus right or Apollo Universal Audio. I'm a huge fan of universal audio. Uh I am too. So we can talk about like how to do budget stuff all the way up to full grade home studio stuff. Yeah. The stuff that's out there um that I would recommend would be as far as the best plugins. And for those of you who are not familiar with those, it's software that emulates uh studio gear. I think the two best out there are Waves and Universal Audio. Yeah. I prefer universal audio, yeah. Uh, but Waves is great. Yeah. And what's your opinion on a really good entry-level system that will work with your computer?

SPEAKER_03 52:13

Well, um, first and foremost, I would recommend starting with a obviously a computer, but it would be like uh I'd I'd suggest going with a Mac. They seem to be you know, they're sort of the easiest place to start. And there's a lot of uh stuff sort of tailored for them in this side of the world, like engineering and home recording. So start there. And the rule of thumb with computers is just get the newest one if you can, get the best one you can. Um, then you'll need an interface and some sort of mic or mics. I do like universal audio stuff. Everything they do, I I I really like up to their plugins, they do a really cool thing. I I met those guys years ago and uh they sort of told me how they do things and they described modeling the uh Pultec 2BQ, the PQ one, like they I'm pretty sure they still do this because they had it back then, but just enabling it, but running your audio through it, even though none of the knobs are turned or you're not applying anything, it's still getting the color of the analog signal. That's because they modeled it like that, right? So they they however they modeled it, they ran it through not even turning anything on. So you s you actually are getting the coloration uh of a unit without enabling anything. That's how nerdy they are now, right?

SPEAKER_05 53:41

They they dan out on it, and like and that and that's called unison as I understand it. Like there there's there's something that that they do if you want to use a mic preamp when you record into it that um I'm just explaining for the folks at home. Yeah. Um, where when you plug your microphone into a preamp, there's a resistance that gets sent back to the microphone, it reacts differently. Yeah. So they will have the univ the Unison plugins that will that will um emulate that sort of resistance, which makes the microphone react differently.

SPEAKER_03 54:14

Yeah, yeah. You can their unison quote unquote technology allows you to I I I they may have been the first ones to do this, but and I think they are actually. Because they have their interface and they have their console uh program that runs. And you can actually insert those plugins right after the preamp or instead of the preamp and record through them into your recording program, your DW. If it's logic, if it's Pro Tools, if it's Ableton, uh any of those systems, that that gets the coloration, it gets the effects. So and it goes, you know, quote unquote to tape, right? So you can go through that. That's the thing about the Unison software, or you can disable it and you can st you can still hear it, but it doesn't get printed into your DW. Uh huh. That's the Unison technology. So you have the option of to rec to record it or not to record it, which is kind of fun. Back in the day, like, you know, when you know, on tape machines, uh analog tape machines, we would we would use that gear, those compressors and stuff to help us get to tape and fight the noise levels and all that kind of stuff. We would use gear for that. Uh it it's arguable how you can use it nowadays. You you don't really have a noise floor anymore, so you you can go in sort of drive, but you can also go in using this stuff. Um, and there's you know, I I suggest doing it either way. Um but that's that's how nerdy they get about it, and that's why I appreciate them from my nerd brain, is because they really are really into that stuff. Um, you know, they've got some great stuff. Their their oceanway plug-in of their room is it's crazy. Capital Records. Oh man, yeah, it's so good.

SPEAKER_05 56:04

And and for those of you who don't know, um when you buy one of their units to plug into your computer, it comes with a uh a shark processing chip. And the great thing about using UA plugins is that you're not taxing your computer with all the all the processing that's necessary for your plugins. That means you're allowed to have more tracks. So you buy the unit that's hardware, they take care of the processing power for the plugins, which are the most realistic things I've ever heard. Yeah. It allows your computer not to be like bogged down because you're trying to put together the most professional recording you can have done. Which in the Bay Area, sadly, there's a lot of legacy studios that have gone um bankrupt because of the the cost of commercial real estate in these places like Fantasy Studios, there's a number of other ones. But you were one of the first people that talked to me about like how good the UAD plugins were. So so it's the reason these studios have gone under is because you can actually make a very professional recording sound in your own bedroom. But you gotta have the know-how. And the entry-level stuff would be how to get like good vocals, how to get good drum sounds.

SPEAKER_03 57:25

To your question, it would be like, you know, get yourself a computer, get yourself one of those interfaces. A lot of companies make them. If you wanted my suggestion, I'd get an Apollo or something. And I should backtrack really quick. What are you recording in your room, right? Uh so if you're an artist, like if you're if it's you in an acoustic guitar, you and a keyboard, uh, and you're gonna sing. Let's say you, you know, you you've got a controller, you're recording piano and keys, maybe you're recording an acoustic guitar, maybe you're singing. So maybe that's two mics, right? Um an SM seven is a great mic. You know, you can go down from that to an SM 57 or an SM58. 99 bucks, I think. Uh there's a there's a now 109.

SPEAKER_05 58:15

Ah, yeah. We had an increase. Yeah, there you go. But but most well, yeah, right. No, but but 57s by and large is the one thing. If I ask any engineer to get up one thing on a desert island.

SPEAKER_03 58:30

Yeah, it's kind of the one you can get away with everything. And if you wanted to like really upgrade, I'd go to an SM7 because I can I can do the same thing again uh with a windscreen on it and this kind of thing. So and and the yeah, and then you can just climb up more expensive from there. But let's take the scenario where you do get something nice like a universal audio interface. And maybe that comes with some plugins. They're always running some sort of special where you get a handful of plugins along with it. Um at that point you you know, you you've got some really decent stuff. I would I would at that point just work and work and work and work and record through that as much as you can without getting too wrapped up in what I should get. Like getting an interface and some mics and a computer that all functions and talks together well is is you're you're in a great place. If you find yourself where you're like, oh, I need more mics because I need to record more things, if it's a drum set or if it's you know a live situation where other people are there, definitely work around that. But don't get too caught up in chasing gear, I think, in the recording thing when you're starting out. Because there's one thing I really love to see, and it's artists who are really fast on their system where the recording is secondary, the recording is just this, I need to do this thing while I get out when I need to get out. That I think is really important. Making it easy, keep your stuff set up in a workflow that's always accessible. You know, your mic is on a boom stand, keep it handy, keep your mic, keep everything tidy, keep everything like ready to go so that if you do have something you want to record, you have an idea, it doesn't take you 30 minutes to set up. It doesn't take you, you don't have to troubleshoot something that you already know everything's set up. You know, once you buy your system and you've got it working, fantastic. The minute you start adding stuff, it's gonna take a little time to make stuff work. But my point is is just keep keep it simple until you outgrow the simplicity factor of it. Because as an artist, and you asked me from an artist standpoint, and this is why I'm saying it in this get this thing working, you know, think of it like a blender. It works when I need it. Uh it's uh you know it's gonna work in this capacity, so that anything you're recording and you have in your brain that needs to come out and get, you know, uh captured isn't hindered by any sort of like other uh things, right? Because in my world, I'm dealing constantly with troubleshooting with all this stuff, which is why audio engineers are called engineers because they used to have to fix things, they used to have to pilot all this strange gear. Uh it nowadays it's not that strange anymore. Uh and artists can do it on their own. They may not need an engineer, but in my world, like in a big session, there's always something, and I've got to do it fast enough to not be in the way of that person who wants to record something. And that's where this is coming from, this advice. So it's keep it simple, and if you get something really good, something nice, something in the middle of the road that's decent and and solid, like a U80 thing, or maybe a focus right, you're gonna be great. Uh and you're off to a great start.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:52

So you're saying do you think potentially like the time it takes for you to set up something that the artist wants, maybe the magic is gone if you take too long to make that happen?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:03

Unfortunately, I've been there. Like my old tape machine, we were so stoked when we got our tape machine, but there'd be a there'd be something that would go wrong at some point or another. Like a channel would blow out and you'd have to like pause the session. And big studios back in the day. Well, I I have this, I get a lot of people asking me that would you rather be digital or analog? You know, Pro Tools or Tape Machine. And it's it's a funny debate. It's really funny, because you know, there was a documentary that came out that praised analog recording and mentioned Neve consoles and tape machines and the beauty and the smell of tape. I remember the smell of tape. I, you know, it was sometimes I hated the smell of it because it reminded me of the crap I had to go through to make the thing work, uh, or or to get rid of the hiss or to get rid of the thing. Not to get rid of the vibe, not to suck the soul out of music. It was never my intent. But we didn't we had a studio that we just didn't have a live-in tech uh long time ago, those big studios, you had a a tech that was on 24-7, and in the back room back there was a room with shelves full of gear that was being repaired in real time, and then there was extra cards for those tape machines that when that thing blew out or something went wrong, you just pulled you you made a phone call. You went every everyone hold on, we have to pause the recording really quick. You ring up the tech, hey, you know, so and so we lost channel 12. Okay, I'll be right down. Or track twelve. So he'll come down with the other card, boop, boop, boop, put it in. Maybe you had to align it, maybe you didn't, but and now you're up and running. We never had that at my place, and so we had to like it would, you know, we'd be like, oh, we're down to 22 tracks today, not 24. So uh so anyway, to answer your question, yeah, like things can hinder a session. Nowadays it's it's it's not as bad because computers are doing their thing, they're a little bit more predictable. Um that's not true across the board for everyone, because there's always issues, but um there can be a million things, like you can have a bad cable, you could your headphones can only be playing through one side because maybe they fell on the ground the wrong way. My point in all of this, long-winded explanation, is to for an artist who's building a a home setup is get something that's rock solid and that that's just gonna be like your computer is it's gonna turn on when you need it to. Uh, you know, you can do X, Y, and Z with so that it keeps the the magic can just happen, right? Your your songs can come out without being hindered, without any sort of problems.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:49

So Right, right. I'll back up a little bit and say for most artists, I would suggest you talked about Apple computers. I think getting Logic Pro X is an excellent idea. That's great. Yeah. Um I'm sure you typically use uh Pro Tools.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:05

I do, but I've I've been w working with a lot of people who use Logic now. It's become quite popular.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:10

So I think Logic is great for most, especially if you're if you're um just becoming a musician, you want to record something. It's 200 bucks. Yeah. No subscription and updates, and I love it.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:26

I I mean I I'll I'll go as far as to to even like suggest Garage Band. Because between Garage Band and Logic, it's a really good progression. That was one thing I was I remember when Logic came out, it wasn't Apple. It was another company, eMagic. Right. Was it eMagic, I think? Uh I I forget who it was, but it was a different sort of uh thing. And so when Apple bought it, they I want to use the term cartoonized it a little bit.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:55

That's not fair to because it sounds derogatory for some reason, but they call it stream.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:00

That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:02

Colorful. Bubble buttons and things. But but it it it sort of changed this thing, but but it really works sufficiently. Like everyone I know who uses it. And again, I I'm not an avid user of it. Um avid user of it. But it they they all go.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:23

There's a nerd joke.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:24

Yeah. Nerd talk. Uh but think you know, everyone's like, I can get a drum set going in a second with the the digital drummer, I can get a piano sound up in no time, and it's great. And so all power tube, and I think that's the most important thing for an artist is the fact that they can just get going and do a thing. And you know, if if if you wanted to take that a step further in my brain, I would say have that system, have that interface and that mic or those mics, have them set up, keep them nice and tidy, take care of all your stuff, have them ready to go at all times. And a little step further would be like create templates in Proje in Logic. Um so you know what a template is, learn about that. So you can just walk in and go, Oh, yeah, I'm gonna do a song that's gonna start on piano, I'm gonna open my piano template, bow, and opens. It's got a click track, it's got the piano already, you know, your mic's ready to go, and and then you're just going, and nothing's in your way. You're just rolling, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:07:20

Dude, it's it's it's great. And I remember having uh whenever I have plug-in questions, I call you. Yeah. Because Chris Dugan has his own plugins with universal audio.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:30

I they're not my own, I just have some presets. Yeah, presets. Okay, yeah, I'll say that.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:35

My mistake.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:35

But I I need one of my own, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:38

But I remember one time I called you and I'm like, okay, so I feel like um I feel like a douchebag. Like all I do is I go through the I I go through the universal audio like settings, and I'm like, that's what I start with. And you made me feel good. You feel me feel good about that. And he's like, no, that's a great place to start. So yeah. So that's one of the great things about some of these plugins is they will they will kind of guide you into those sort of sections. So if I'm Joe Schmoe and I want to record an acoustic guitar and have a um a vocalist sing on it. Okay, so let's let's put out this scenario. Yeah. So we we make this happen for somebody who's just new to recording. Yeah. Okay. Now Logic has a great drummer program. Yeah. And and uh for all the musicians out there, learn how to play to a click track. Yeah, could not be well, it it makes it so much easier to edit, and then you can add drums, and the drum sections sound very realistic. Yeah. So you I mean, it's it's amazing how good they can do that. It's cool, yeah. Yeah, so so you get in your program, you do your like let's say you're a singer-songwriter, you're doing uh guitars, you're doing your vocals. Okay, so now you got this project, you save it, and then now you can do some tweaking because you're gonna hear some stuff. Like, this um this doesn't sound exactly like the recordings I've heard. Right. What are some of those plugins and effects that people don't realize are on all of your favorite recordings that you've heard on the radio?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:14

That's a good question.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:15

I'll say just as a uh a starter, like as a Durafame log, compression, yeah, EQ, and maybe some nice reverbs. Yeah. So if you are a noob and you want to get into compression, EQ, and reverbs, what are some of the classic equipment that that will get you there, and what are the plugins that you recommend that will make that happen? And we can do universal audio to ways to whatever. So I I record a singer, she's got a great voice, she's through an SM58. How could I make this sound as professional as possible? What would be your advice?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:58

Uh I would put uh an EQ on her. If I were looking down my insert order, I would put an EQ, I would put, I maybe put a DSer in there. Uh so actually it would start like this DS, quite possibly. Um, an EQ, a compressor, and then I may EQ it again. Um and then I would put a send out to a reverb unit, or you can put a plug-in of a reverb unit after all that with the mix knob. There's we're getting into you know sort of intermediate advanced signal flow options, but I would add a reverb plugin. Um maybe even a delay. It I have a template for my stuff at home for mixing, and people send me their stuff, and I have a pretty long radical list of uh stuff ready to go. And there's like a couple delays, there's like four reverbs, uh, there's a lot of stuff, so I can kind of just be ready for it. But a delay and a reverb, and even an additional reverb, you can't go wrong. You can, if you put too much on it, obviously, for your own taste. And I'll I'll start by saying right off the bat, there are no rules, right? There there really are no rules as to what you do, right? So you can this is where I start. So we'll we'll throw that out there. I love Fab Filter. Fab Filter makes some great plugins. They make an EQ called the Q4 uh the Pro Q4, which is super powerful EQ, it's great. Um I love that. I kind of use that for all the surgical stuff, right? So I would put that first, uh uh right after the dieser. I don't know what's in logic. I know in Pro Tools the Avid DSer is really great. I also like the Fab filter dieser personally.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:54

I'm a big fan of that one. And for for people at home, DSer is making sure the the Sss the sizzle of a vocal is not too overwhelming.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:04

Yeah, so it it it looks at a frequency range, which is that range, uh, and it compresses it. So when that S hits really hot, it pulls it down, right? And so some of these plugins, like the Fab Filter one is pretty awesome. It has a look ahead feature, so it's always looking ahead and lets you really sculpt in to what it is. Um so I'll do that, I'll do the EQ, and then like depending on the music, maybe an uh an 1176 compressor. Um you know, UA again has like three or four, I think it's yeah, four uh 1176 emulations that are fantastic to an original box. Um, another favorite of mine is the CLA76 from Waves. I really like that one too. That one's got a super mojo to it. All of them have great like presets, so you can go in there and go vocal, you know, loud vocal, female vocal, male vocal, draw, you know, all these different versions.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:04

And by the way, the CLA uh 76, a lot of times waves will have these crazy sales where you'll get it for like $29.99. That's right. So for the listeners, like great deal.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:15

Yeah. Um, and then I'd probably finish off with something like uh a a Paul Tech sort of EQ. And that the one I really love is the Universal Audio one. I just like that one. Um that's got a really nice top end to it. You know, it's it's a beautiful sort of airy sound that is that is complementary to a lot of instruments, but I I like it on on vocals. That's a that's a general sort of signal processing chain, sort of, for vocals. You can go crazy on vocals with you know a million other things, but it's a great place to start. And honestly, like you know, you can go a little less than this, but this is a good place I feel like to start. And then I add a reverb. The Capital Chambers by um Universal Audio, super one of my favorites. They modeled one of the plates from the plant. It's beautiful sounding. There's also another company called The Hala who makes some really great plugins. They're inexpensive, 70 bucks, I think. Uh yeah, they make a plate that I really like too, and a vintage reverb that I use a lot. So one of those plates, I would always plates are are are a style of reverb that everyone's sort of heard forever on vocals. You may not know it, but that's just kind of what we're all used to hearing as a general rule of thumb when you think of reverb.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:38

I think you also recommend the EMT 140, which is the plate. I use that all the time on vocals.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:44

Oh, that's the one, I'm sorry. That's the that's the one of the plant. I'm uh I think I said the capital chambers. That's the capital chambers is the capital chambers, but the emt 140, one of those plates, I forget, they have three in there. There's an A, B, and C. One of them, I believe, is the is the is the plants. Um so yeah, if you have a plate and you have one other reverb, like a chamber, or something else to sometimes blend in, that's a cool thing. You can sort of do some blending. I I'd recommend that. And then a little delay. Sometimes people like a slap delay or a longer delay. That's purely to taste at that point. And uh and I would experiment with that. I'd experiment with getting you know your vocal down and then playing with reverb later and sort of seeing what fits the vibe of the song. And again, there's no right and wrong with that, it's totally up to you, you know. So cool. That's that starting point, I think, for vocals. Perfect.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:38

That's exactly what we were looking for is a starting point. In my opinion, one of the biggest seasons you can do is making the drums sound big. Yeah. Or or small or whatever. Like the the quality of a recording is so heavily influenced in drums that people don't realize that.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:55

It's yeah, it's interesting, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:15:57

It makes it sound more expensive, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:00

Yeah, or lo-fi, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:16:02

Right. I've used the CLA drums plugin. Yeah, it's a good one. With with with pretty good uh results. Yeah. So if if you are a noob and you're just let's say uh you you get logic, let's say you spring for 200 bucks and you get that. Yeah. And you do the drums, like what sort of plugins can you do that are hopefully you can cut and paste and get close to good with some room to nerd out on it.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:28

CLA drums is good. CLA drums is good because it has like four different things in one, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:16:34

And so which are compression, I know.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:37

Yeah, um, I there's some EQ uh and some reverb, right? So it's sort of everything like I mean to go back to vocals, there is a CLA vocals that has all these features that I set individually. Like you can find plugins like that. And I, you know, there's no right and wrong as to go to which one you like. Like it again, this is that thing that goes back to as an artist, if you could make this sort of easy and fast and still satisfy what you're hearing as quality, I think that's all that matters at the end of the day. I can tell you that this is uh an amazing EQ, but if working it is odd for you and this other one is really easy and gets the job done, that's what's important. So that being said, um CLA drums is good for that because it's it's quick. There's one plug-in, I've got these faders, I love the fader idea. Like here's compression, here's I think he calls it punch, maybe I I forget what he calls it, but they're labeled different things. Maybe this compression. Um that's awesome. What I'd suggest doing is going, you know, recording if you've got you know four tracks of drums or you've got 16 tracks of drums, I tend to like to bust those drums down to a stereo track in some form, and then apply my coloration and my compression or that drum plug-in to them as a group. I tend to do that. Everybody does things differently, but that's a great place to sort of start because you get to hear what we're talking about, making something bigger or beefier or smaller. You get to hear what processing drums sounds like on a pretty global sense. And I think that's important because you can sit and put it on a snare drum all day and do what you want to do, which is great. But drums like in the mix of something, and I mean this in the sense of like rock music, something that's whether it's you know chill or heavy, you kind of want to hear what happens when everything's all together. And so I would try to bust your drums down to a bus, a stereo bus or a group, however your DIW handles it, and then strap this across the top of that. So you can do the CLA drums, you can do an EQ. I would do an EQ. If I had to separate it, it'd be a little like vocals, in that I'd do an EQ, then I'd do some compression, and even some harmonic distortion to a certain degree, and then another EQ just to tame everything that I'm doing. Now, with that being said, all that stuff on the drums all has to have mix knobs, right? So yeah, I keep you can't go on a hundred percent. Uh or you can and and really go for it, but in that scenario, these are all like you know, have mixes pulled back, and I'm adding small elements of this and adjusting how much of each thing is going to be audible with that mix knob, right? Right. So um that's how I would do it. And and then you you get a idea right away of like, whoa, whoa, the drums sound crazy right now. The symbols are out of control. How about I back down the symbols now because I'm treating them so differently through this new bus compression and all this stuff, and you can start to mix through it. Um so that's a good way to experiment and hear what can happen. There's a million ways to treat this and do this other ways, but it's a good place to start and start hearing like what you can do to your drums, like and what yeah, how big they can get or how gnarly they can get, you know.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:10

You're suggesting you get the mix first and then you start treatment. You you're not you're not going through like 16 tracks of you know, left tom, right tom, symbol, blah blah blah blah blah. You're saying get the mix first and then treat the drums. Don't treat them individually unless you need to get surgical with this. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:29

Um yeah, I'm saying if you want to like put get a broad stroke and get an idea of what you can do to the sound of the drums as a whole kit. You asked about beefing up drums, and then and what I'd suggest doing is mixing your drums, getting a a mix of them, a blend of them, uh, and then applying these plugins to the drums as a whole, as a stereo set. So yeah, it would be a sub-mix of that, right? So you would do that in Pro Tools, I'd do that through a send or a or a folder group. Um and and I believe you can do that in Logic as well. Like you can you can create a group of that stuff, it affect the whole group. And within that group, you're you're able to set your mixes and and sort of blend. That's what I would do. And then I and then I would let it sit, I'd add the rest of my elements, or I you gotta check it against everything else at that point, at some point. And you're probably gonna make some adjustments if you haven't checked it against everything, right? You if you've got guitars, you've got strings, or you got piano, or you've got all of that, as soon as all that's in, you're gonna have to do some little tweaks here and there. But that's a great way to sort of bring what might, you know, hypothetically what might be the bedroom drum sound into a bigger world. And then one other thing, there's some reverb you can add. And I I I'll tell you, man, like I've I've gotten bedroom tracks, like someone clearly has recorded in just with a lo-fi setup and um and they want a big sound, and I've like just thrown up the Ocean Way plugins because the drums like and I mean like I'm just gonna throw this on really and it immediately like you're gonna lose your job now. I know, I know. But sometimes you you can just solo and you just listen to just that plug in. You're like, I don't know if that sounds I've recorded in that room with drums, and I'm like, I I you know that's interest. Okay, yeah, I get it. Yeah, that's that. But as soon as you put it in with everything, it's there's something magical about that plugin. I love, like, I I get it. They did something really cool with that one. So all of a sudden you've got room sounds, and then there's others as well.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:43

So so there's moments where you're look using these plugins and you're and you press the button and you're like, that was too easy. This can't be it. It's true. Yeah, start pitching yourself.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:54

It's so funny.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:56

As a guitar player, I hate to say that usually it's just make sure your tone is good and put a 57 in front of it. And like 99 times out of a hundred, you're gonna be fine.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:09

Yeah, yeah. I um I've I used to have this. Um I recently switched my uh my whole uh micing. I I was very religious. Every time I'd find a a recipe that worked for me, I would I'd stick to it. And then I'd try something. Oh no, this is the new way. And I I think that works with everybody. They find some a way to do something, sort of hold on to it. And uh recently, like for a long time, it was a 57 and a 414. That's 414 is an expensive mic for someone starting out, right? And so it's it's a luxury I would have at a studio that had them. And then, you know, I went to a 57 and a Royer R121. That's also an expensive mic per se. But I recently I was reading up on how back to Van Halen, how Eddie got his sound and how Don Landy recorded it, and there was a guy, I saw this recently, who walked in way back when and saw the micing done. There's no interviews from from Don talking about how he did this. It was, you know, it was told to everyone he used two 57s. One was pointed at the speaker and one was off axis. That's all we knew for years. And this uh one engineer was was uh asked offered to come in and to see the setup way back when and he saw it and he remembered it and described it. Uh Sunset Sound does these cool, like, you know, hey, let's round table, like I guess it is a podcast or a YouTube channel where they talk about these old recordings, Prince and Van Halen. They're great. I highly suggest watching them. It's nerd stuff, but this guy talked about it and he he he was like, here's the way it was. And so I was like, okay, I'm gonna try this. I had tried it over the years, but I didn't know w what it was. I tried different versions, it just never worked for me. Recently I tried it and it worked and it was awesome. And it's two fifty-sevens. And so I'm actually like I'm going back that route now, where it's uh it's not hard. If you have two of those mics, you're gonna be fine. And if you have one, you're gonna be fine. And you're totally right about the SM57 in general. It's like you you can put that on anything and be a-okay so Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:34

Well, for live situations with my guitar, I do 57 where the um where the dust cap meets the the cone. Yeah. And never fails. Or that's the one, yeah. Or if I'm in a really small stage and I'm like backed up against a wall. Do you do the back? Uh what's that? Do you mic the back or no? No, no. Uh just I use a 609. Sennheiser 609. Just rape that over there and put it in the same spot. Yeah. And I prefer the 57, but yeah, but the 609 sounds great too. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:08

609 is cool because you can just hang it by its cable. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:11

Yeah, no stands involved. So if you have a small stage, it's always great. Yeah. But my favorite is a uh 57 with a Sennheiser 421 on the other side of the cone. Yeah. And I and blending that is always fun.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:23

Yeah, I mean, I was able to m make a record once where, you know, our tones were like it was two mics, and I find most of the time I need a little bit of EQ to just sort of tame a couple things. If it's the low end, I gotta back it down. Or maybe I need to add it. Some sometimes I need a little touch-up of something, but there was a moment where I was able to do it on this one particular cab and head combination that was really just blending the two mics. And I had them lined up as perfect as I could. So trying to eliminate any issues with phase, right? I just wanted it. And I I I always remember going like, wow, I think I did something cool. I think in the long run, at the end of the day, there is some sort of phase, probably on some microscopic level, but I didn't have to use any EQ, and I was always like, I think I'm gonna from now on try to do that. If I can do it with two mics and have without having to reach for this EQ kind of thing, not that there's anything bad with that. I don't know, but that was just some dumb crusade I'm bent on. It's just like if I can do it without doing EQ, cool. And uh that's where I go with it. So I you gotta try this 57 thing because it really like it's interesting, like how the high end comes out. Like I I always approach two mics where I'd go like, okay, this is my bright mic. I would point one at the dust cap and then one towards the cone, and I would consider my bright, my dark, my high and my low, or my treble and bass, or however, like that's how my brain would work, and so I would kind of like, Oh, I need more. I'd reach for that at 57 or or sometimes I'd reverse it. I'd put you know, and this one's interesting because both these two mics sound like okay, we sound like 57, they're sort of got their thing, but as soon as you match them, the top end is a really cool thing. So I don't yeah. Um this might be my new thing from now on.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:21

Be seasoned for taste.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:22

That's right. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:24

Cool. All right. Well, I'm gonna ask you two more questions. Okay. Um the first question would be what are the top three qualities that you have as a human being that got you to where you're at?

SPEAKER_03 1:28:40

Top three. Um uh I think being polite is important. Um having patience is really, really important. I remember being told that, not really attempting to have patience, and it was never like uh but I remember a lot of people going, hey, I like you because you're very patient about stuff. So I chalk that up as one. Um and I think just being as easygoing as possible. Um you have to leave for my job, you have to leave your issues at the door and be able to turn that stuff off and come in and be like, hey everybody, you know, let's have fun, let's party, you know, be like like you know, the Jeff Spicoli of like, hey, let's have a good time and just try to create the best time ever, you know. So uh yeah, so polite, patient, and uh carefree.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:44

It's fantastic threes. I love the fact that you didn't talk about competence or how good you are at your job. Because let me turn this into something that's that's a compliment because you are clearly at the top of your game and your ego is near Zill. And anytime I've had any contact with you, it's always a pleasure. Oh, like it it it's it's you're not a punisher, there's no energy absorption. You walk up and talk to you, and you've always been kind, mellow, and just easygoing, and you never walk away from Chris Dugan saying, Oh, that was exhausting ever. I hope not. And truly, truly, I hope you take that as a compliment.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:31

Oh, I do. Thank you. Thank you, Adam.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:33

And then and then next question I have is Um If if you were in ancient Egypt and they're gonna bury you with three pieces of gear. Ah, yeah, the gear. What what what what what what gear when when you think of the stuff that you use, and like, oh it sounds great, what would it be?

SPEAKER_03 1:30:51

Alright, so if I got super nerdy. That's what we're asking. Yeah, you want to get yeah, I want to get deep into uh Nerdville. Um man, I remember when I first found a Royer, like when I first got to use a Royer ribbon mic.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:07

The 121?

SPEAKER_03 1:31:08

Yeah, like the first time I it kind of like clicked for me. I was like, oh, this is how cool this mic is. And this is years ago, but I I remember going like I want to make a whole record with just these mics. I think I could with that mic. So I gotta figure out why I'm being buried. Like, am I I'm being buried in a tomb, but I'm gonna be recording more? Or is this just like I'm out, I'm taking my favorite pieces with me.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:33

Yeah, man. I mean, somebody grabs a fucking Ouija board, they put it, they put it in the studio, and they're channeling Chris. Do you do it or Chris? Chris, do it, do it. What's what it likes to be wanted to be with?

SPEAKER_03 1:31:44

Well, I'm assuming I'm gonna keep working. All right, so uh, yeah, probably an SM7. Um, I gotta think about what I'd take with me. So, yeah, uh 1176.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:00

That's a good one.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:01

Yeah. And then um man. I don't know, good pair of headphones.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:14

I don't know. Okay, you gotta you gotta choose your headphones.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:19

I don't even know. Uh just the the Neumann ones. I don't know the number. The open back? I feel like yeah, they are open back. I do like the open back. 580s? Is that what they are? Yeah, the silver ones, right? Yeah, yeah. Those are the ones. I have some. Well, they're aren't they awesome? They're great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:36

I I I got those before I put up proper studio monitors. I'm like, I can't, because before we're expanding in our store, and I'm like, I I I don't have enough room for proper studio monitors, so I need to get good headphones. I think they're the Nolan 580s. Okay. I'll probably have to go back and do redaction.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:54

I tried the closed back and they were awesome, but the open back was the low end was like perfect. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:00

It was before now I have like Yamaha, like like the uh the HS8s, which are close to the N S10s. Yeah, cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:08

But but I love my NS 10s, I swear by them.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:12

But but the but the Neumann's before I had monitors, like if you don't if you can't afford monitors, get those things. They're 500 bucks, yeah, but they're fucking worth it.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:20

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Alright, so I feel good about that. Yeah. You back me on that one. I will. Yeah, yeah, okay. So there we go. I don't know what I'm gonna do for a preamp, but you know.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:31

You told me about the dual 72s, the Vintex.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:36

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:37

You suggested that to me. I bought used ones and I've used those for mic preamps and fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:43

The uh V73s? Is that what they're called?

SPEAKER_05 1:33:46

No, I I think it was the dual 72.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:48

Is it a two-channel?

SPEAKER_05 1:33:50

Two-channel? And there's there's no EQ, it's just just a pre's?

SPEAKER_03 1:33:55

Yeah, just the Pri's. Okay, yeah. Oh I do Vintech is uh, yeah, if you want to talk about gear, like there's that's a company that uh a long time ago, this guy Dallas who started that company was such a cool dude to us, and uh he, you know, I remember reading an interview about him. He's like, Yeah, I'm gonna make these 1073s, I'm just gonna make them this way, and I'm gonna make, you know, whatever. And I remember them being like, you know, if I couldn't afford a real 1073, and I don't know at this point I don't know why you would buy one because he it was the studio I was in had uh uh real vintage 1073s, and then we got those and we started A Bing them. And it was like uh this kind of goes back to that tape machine analogy where you're like here's the classic one, right? I have the same EQ points, these are sounding identical, except my vintage one is crackling and crapping out every time I get to this section or this point, you know, and it's like you know, and and maybe you want that, or maybe you don't, but uh the Vintach stuff for us was just bulletproof. I love it, man. This kid stuff.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:08

And I think Mike used it for his bass preamp for a long time, didn't he? He did, yeah. Before he went to Fender.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:14

Yeah, it was it was a pre uh it was just one of those preamps. His DI went right through it, and then it went into a power amp that powered his speakers, and it was it was pretty cool. And they sent that to Fender as like a here's what I'm using, and and he yeah, it's cool, man. It was I mean that was his sound for a long time. And we still use a 1073 sort of thing, and um yeah. But the Vintech uh the four channel 473 has four channels, and you get a top shelf and a low shelf, and he used to uh I don't know if he still does this, but you could select what your shelves could be. You could ask him. I don't know if he still does that, but I don't know what Dallas is up to, but I still swear by that stuff. Great, great, great gear.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:58

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming part of the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:01

Dude, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:02

And um, thank you to the hop grenade. Thank you to Justin Crossley. Justin's been sitting here the whole time.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:07

We owe him a big thank you.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:09

We do. Yeah. I'm not gonna give it to him though. No, give it to him. Matt, say something, Justin. Thanks, Justin.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:17

I have to unmute myself to say something. I want to I wanted to contribute one thing to the equipment talk.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:23

Oh, cool. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:24

Oh, good. Uh now's a good time to turn your podcast off.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:27

What how should we use our equipment, Justin? Treat it like it's just how we do our job.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:36

It's just an anecdote. Like uh the studio you're sitting in has evolved over 20 years, 20, 20 something years. Uh the only equipment in here that's never broken, and it's probably 30 years old because it was in all my bands before I built a studio. Yeah. It's the SM58s that you're using right now. So it's not just that they're versatile. They I know this gets said, but like the it's I'm telling you, I I'm not exaggerating when I say every other thing in this studio has broken at least once. Sure. As most studios, right? Yes, absolutely. Except for your SM7s. And your 57s are probably the same. Yep. That's my only contribution, guys.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:15

Yeah. Yeah. 58s, and you can drop them. I can't see how many have seen the dented grills, but they're fine. There's blood on them, there's sweat. Like they still work. Yeah. It's a great. Yeah. Cheers to that.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:29

Cheers to that. Um, and thank you so much again. Thanks for having me, man. Thanks for listening to Soundwall the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:38

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