God Moments in the Life of a Carpenter, with Keith Gebben

In this episode, Michigan carpenter Keith Gebben shares his journey of learning to walk with the Holy Spirit and minister to others.  Through God inspired questions, learning to hear God's voice, recognizing God's kairos moments, and sincere loving relational connections, Keith demonstrates to us a life that is day to day lived in obedience the way God intends for us as disciples of Jesus Christ.  His sincere honesty and simple but powerful stories inspire faith that God has plans to use our small steps of obedience for far greater purposes!    

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Welcome back, everybody, to the Mission to Mobilize podcast. This is Jay, your host here, and I have the pleasure today of speaking with Keith Gebbin. Keith is a friend of mine from many years back from Southwest Michigan, the small town of Allegan. He is a residential interior trim carpenter. I think I said that right. Keith, welcome today to the podcast.

SPEAKER_04 0:32

Thanks, Jay. Good to be here.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Yeah. So you've been in this carpentry career for a number of years. Am I correct?

SPEAKER_04 0:43

Yeah, I got into the building industry back in the early 80s, and then that morphed into interior trim carpentry in the late 80s, mid to late 80s. So if we do the math, I guess I've been doing this for 40 years.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Wow. That's about as old as I am a lot. How many years I have on this earth? So wow. Yeah. So tell me what you like about doing this job.

SPEAKER_04 1:12

Well, it there's a couple different aspects of it. I mean, we have the opportunity, we we sometimes will refer to taking a residence, and most of it's new construction, but we take a residence from the uh cocoon to the butterfly. We get to see what's actually going to be developed inside. We're we're the guys who are doing the staircases, we're doing the custom built-in cabinetry, we're doing um the doors and the moldings, the fun stuff is like what I like to refer to it as. And that gives us an opportunity to be creative and an opportunity to be productive, which I believe is part of God's plan for guys, especially, probably for everyone, quite honestly. Um we don't need to find outlets to be creative because we have challenges every day to do that, and uh it's never boring. The other part of it is meeting people. Um, and a lot of the jobs that I've been on, if I'm there for a month, that's a long time. Constantly meeting new people, constantly having conversations with new acquaintances, and and I love to chat with these people, get to know them, what's their career path, where have they been, um, and how did they decide to do what they're doing right now, and just just totally engage with them um in their in their dream. They're they're building a dream, and it's our it's our job to help them realize that dream become a reality. So never boring.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Sure. And do you have a number of coworkers or do you mostly work independently?

SPEAKER_04 3:04

At this point, because of place in my career, I don't have employees anymore. Um for probably 15 to 20 years. We ran, I had four employees, so we were working with five carpenters, um, running two crews. We were trimming 60 residences a year. Um and then started scaling that back a couple years ago, even more so in the last four or five. At this point, I don't have employees. There's two or three guys that I work close with as subcontract, they work for me. I help them sometimes um because some of the projects are just larger than one person can physically handle. And uh on the other hand, I can't just bring in warm bodies. I need talent, guys that know what they're doing and know how to do it well. Um, there's pros and cons to being an employer and not having employees. Uh, some days I wish I had guys, some days I'm thankful I don't.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

That makes sense.

SPEAKER_04 4:16

Just gotta, it's just like every area of life. I mean, there's trade-offs, right? You're always you're always dealing with trade-offs. What's the easy way to do this? What's what makes more sense right now? And and I'm 67, so I I'm looking at trying to back away from this. I was asked yet today, how much how much longer are you gonna do this? And I'm like, well, I don't know. We'll have to see. And play it by ear, see what God wants to do.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

That's a good plan. That's a good plan. Being that you've done this for 40 years and you've done this in the same general community. Um, there's probably is that correct? It's been in the same general community.

SPEAKER_04 4:55

That's correct, yes. Yeah, it's been the same, same geographical area, same network of people, by and large. I mean, I have lumber salesmen that I've worked with for 30 years. Um, I've builders that I've worked with. Well, this I'm working with third generation in one scenario. Um, the superintendent that I see on sites managing jobs is the third generation of this building family. Um, so I can I can tell him stories about his grandpa.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

Yeah, to finish my thought, I I was I was just gonna say that must be unique because you, unlike myself, I've moved around a lot in life. You know, you've really been in the same region with that opportunity to build relationships with multiple generations, and I think that's really awesome. When you think about this carpentry vocation, how has doing this led you into opportunities to live out the Great Commission?

SPEAKER_04 6:00

It simply morphed into that. Um as got deeper and deeper into the experience and the confidence with being the carpenter, um, at the same time, God was preparing a ministry. I think I I truly believe I can say that God was creating a ministry for me to step into. I didn't have to make it, God opened doors for me to go into, and the same is true with ministry, where conversations just happen. Um because it's relational business, because I see the same group of guys on job sites, we get to know each other, we track with each other, we get to learn a little bit about each other's hobbies and families, and we get to see the good, the bad, and the ugly. Um, there's parts of me that guys have seen that I wish they didn't have to see, but that happened, and so that makes me real. And there's parts of their lives that I really don't need to know, but I do, and I have to carry that very carefully. The all of all of this coming together, um, once I realized what God was doing, it's just like, okay, must I be more intentional with how I go to work today? And I find myself starting my day with, okay, Lord, I'm going out there. What do you have planned for today? Here's my list of objectives that I want to accomplish today. Here's the address I'm going to, but what do you have on your heart, Lord? What am I preparing for? And sometimes you would give me a heads up. A lot of times it would just unfold as the day happened. Um, there's not, I couldn't train anybody to do it, truly. I could coach somebody on what to look for. Um, listen to the people that you're working with, truly listen to them, pay attention. Um, be prepared to because I'm self-employed, I can pause. I'm not under a gun, I'm not on anybody's time clock. And if I stand around and talk to somebody for five minutes, my boss isn't yelling at me. Um, I have that freedom and that flexibility, which is very helpful. The and the conversations are they're bigger than anything I could create because I know I couldn't make things like this happen. God is in the middle of that conversation, he's sparking something, he's making a connection. Um, sometimes he doesn't move fast enough for me, but I have to be okay with that. Um, that's the story of life. And some days it's a matter of running to keep up with him. Um, he gave me a picture several years ago when I had screwed it up. And if we're gonna live like this, I I can I can look anybody in the eye and say, if you're gonna live like this, you're gonna screw it up. You're gonna have that day when you look back and go, Oh, that was not the best way to do that. And he gave me the picture at the end of a season of showing me that I was trying to build the stage to take these conversations out onto. And he flat out told me, you're not building the stage, I am. And you build the stage, you set things up for disaster, and people get hurt when the stage collapses. Don't do that. It was uh it was a hard lesson to learn, but it simplified things dramatically because now I'm not responsible for making the stage. I'm just simply listening for my cue, and when the cue is there, it's like, okay, Keith, you're on, and you just know it. You you know it's time to interact. Um, I had a situation of that happened on Friday on a job site. We were standing in a brand new residence with a lady, and she was she was a recent widow. Um, her husband had passed away last year on March 16. There was a little card laying on the kitchen counter, the size of a business card, and it was John 316. 316, and that number just clicked with her, and she was trying to figure out where that came from. In fact, one of the other persons that was in the conversation there at that time, there were four of us total. She looked at me and she said, Did you bring that card in? I'm like, That's not my style, not my style at all to do that. Nope, not responsible. And but the question was, how does this work? And I'm like, there's my cue. How does this work? Well, the God that I know is a great orchestrator, and if he wanted this lady to see that card, John 3.16, and wanted it to trigger a memory of her deceased husband who was a believer, and wanted to encourage her with that, he would figure out how to get that card there. We might never figure it out.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

And that's as long as the conversation was just that little bit of this is God.

SPEAKER_04 12:02

This is God at work. Um theoretically, I guess I would consider that if I had to put a title on it, I'd call it encouragement. Nothing else. Just straight up, you know, be encouraged. But I didn't I didn't even have to use the word encouragement, it was the action of encouragement.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

Right. Sounds to me like it's it's just like as you're going, as you're working, um instead of instead of trying to force something that isn't natural, or like you said, build a stage that God doesn't want you to build, you're just in tune with what the person is saying and what God is saying. Is that right?

SPEAKER_04 12:47

I'd say that's a pretty fair synopsis, yes. Um, listening, which is probably a tactic that I learned in healing prayer ministry or deliverance ministry, where you're listening to the person, but you're also listening to the Holy Spirit at the same time. Um you're hyper in tune with what's going on in the arena that you're in. Um and maybe not to the degree that it would be if you were in truly in a ministry setting, because that takes a tremendous amount of energy to maintain that.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Right.

SPEAKER_04 13:24

But yet, but yet with practice, um you can get in your vehicle and drive to the grocery store. You probably don't have to think about where you're going, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:33

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 13:36

But yet you learned how to get there. And this is kind of what kind of how this feels to me in a sense. It's just like I've done this repeatedly. It's it's a it's not a muscle memory, but kind of is. You you know what you're looking for, and when you see it, you know, you know, and you and you then, but then it's not that simple though, Jay, because when you know now you have to make a decision, am I going to play?

SPEAKER_00 14:11

Let's talk about that a little bit. So, you know, it's one thing to go out and for a walk or something and say, God use me, and look around for people when you don't have anything else that you're doing. But when you're working on the job, um, at least if you're anything like I am, when you're doing a task, you're trying to get that task done and done well. And so you're doing that as a carpenter, and you notice something, you know, you recognize one of these cues, or God speaks something to you, or you name it. How do you redirect when that happens? And I'm I'm I'm guessing there's probably been times you've either been slow or haven't missed the chance, and other times you've been spot on. But talk a little bit about that process of what I'll call divine interruptions.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Divine interruption, I like that term.

SPEAKER_04 15:10

Um, I've actually argued with God when he's given me a divine interruption. Um I can I can remember a lady who I felt I was supposed to ask a question of, and I'm just like, no, Lord, she'd be embarrassed if I interacted with her because we don't know each other. And and and he just kept prompting me and he wouldn't let it go away. And he's gracious enough that he gave me time to build courage in me to follow through. That's an extreme cautious approach, which actually ended well, by the way. Um other scenarios where it's just you just hear a phrase. Um, I've caught myself, the words almost fall out of my mouth as a response to something that somebody said, or or there'll be uh maybe a context that comes out of scripture, or sometimes even the direct word of scripture that will come to mind. And it's just like given that given that thought, Bob, let's throw this truth on top of that. Let's see if this fits, and and give them a chance to interact. Um several years ago, I was I met a retired detective, police officer. Well, told me that I was a provocative provocateur. Now, so for the audience, don't feel bad if you're stumbling around going, what are you talking about, Keith? Because I had to stop and look this guy in the eye and go, What do you mean? I said, You have the innate ability to ask the right questions, to get answers, and to make people think. And I'm like, okay, I'll just simply receive that as information. Um, but taking that information with and looking back across conversations, it's just like a lot of the conversation is me asking questions of people, but asking the right questions. Um, there's dead-end questions where you get yes, no, or maybe, and then there's questions where you get answers, um, and people begin to open up, and it it creates a dialogue. Um, the interesting part of doing this type of work on a job site is we're gonna do uh several minutes here in this podcast. Much of what I normally do is five minutes, it's done, and then we go separate directions, and I might see that person a week later and follow up on that, and we have another five-minute conversation, or maybe the next day, or sometimes even the same day, but it transpires over time, it builds because it's much of this is relational, it's not it's not street corner type of work where I'll never see this person again. Um, it's very relational. The and and the building dynamic of that um allows in my mind, it allows Holy Spirit time to work. When we throw the right, when we throw the God-inspired questions at people, and Holy Spirit grabs that person, he's already grabbed that person because he's given us a question to ask. Then they hear the right question from a human voice, and he keeps working that in them. That's when we see lives. Um, there are people that I see on a regular basis. Um, breakfast breakfast meetings is another place that I see a lot of people and do uh what I would consider ministry happens at the breakfast table in restaurants. Um I wanted to go to seminary once in my life. Believe it or not, I spent three months asking God if it was time to go to seminary. Here is a guy who's never been to college a day in his life asking God if he's supposed to go to seminary when he's in his early to mid-40s. He flat out told me, No, I have another plan. And it was at that point that much of this started to develop. And for me, part of the development of this is realizing that this is all dependent on the leadership and the work of the Holy Spirit, and that without that, this isn't gonna work.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

So, Keith, um what I'm hearing from you is there came a point in time in your life when there was a strong desire to, um for lack of a better word, go deeper in your faith, become a more spiritual person, whatever. And that was maybe the the seminary, what provoked the seminary question. Um, you wanted to, I'm guessing you wanted to do more for God. Um, talk about what led you to that point, um, because getting to that point uh got you to where you are now when God took you that different direction. Go back to that in your life. I want to hear about that.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

That was in a season when I was being introduced, had been introduced to the reality of the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_04 21:51

I grew up in a Christian church, and and I can lightheartedly say we had Father, Son, and Holy Scripture.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 22:02

And then there was this ghost that was mentioned occasionally. And mom and dad had taught us that ghosts weren't real. So what does a 12-year-old do with this? And I wrestled, I wrestled with it. I say that lighthearted, but um by the time I was 16, whatever, I had realized I didn't know what I didn't know what it was, but there was something missing. That played into this also. Um, but then if I fast forward 15 years from that, I had joined a church at that point in time. I was married, um, I was being involved in church leadership. The Holy Spirit wasn't involved with that, or the Holy Spirit wasn't dependent on in leading that. And when I was introduced to the reality of the Holy Spirit, it changed the way that I thought of Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit is a person, he's not this fire, he's not this wind, he's not this source of power, he's a person, and he's an engaging person. In the season that we live in, in my mind, he is the most prevalent engaging character of the trinity on the planet in 2026. Jesus went back to heaven, Father has always been in heaven. Holy Spirit is here, he is the most engaging person of the Trinity, and our challenge, I should say, maybe a privilege, is to engage with him. And when I started engaging with him and trusting him and seeing him lead through the lives of people around me and seeing positive stuff and movements that I hadn't experienced before, and things that should have been difficult that weren't that difficult. Um, I was involved in a ministry and we rebirthed that ministry from a dozen and a half people into a vibrant evangelism program. We baptized 75 people in two years from a core of 18 people. This is after God had proclaimed to me up on a sand dune along Lake Michigan that he loved the people of that community and he was coming to town.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

I got to see it.

SPEAKER_04 25:15

You can't undo this type of stuff. Once you've seen God at work like that, once you've experienced him like that, you can't undo it. And I'm just like, okay, do you want me to be a pastor? You want me to go to seminary? I'll go to seminary. I know, I know what's ahead of me. If I go to seminary, I'm not I'm not gonna find myself in a position for what six years, eight years? If I can even get there. And what do I do with my thriving business in the meantime? Do I just dump it? And I would have if he wanted me to, but that wasn't that wasn't his way. Um, ultimately, what he told me at the end of three months of chasing after him, do you want me to go to seminary? He woke me up at 4 30 in the morning, he flopped me in the hot tub, and I so I was such a great person at the time. I said, I literally sat down in that hot tub and I leaned into him and I said, What? It's 4 30 in the morning. What is on your mind? And he impressed it on me that I was going to stay in that little church. That's where he wanted me.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

That's powerful. I mean, and it that's a common thread in all these different podcasts is hearing people's obedience is where the fruit in their life is, not in their own ability to try to manufacture something. And so I really appreciate you sharing that. Um go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 26:52

And and at the and then in the next in the immediate season beyond that, he provided an opportunity for some training that I never imagined I would be plugged into. I I find myself for two years, once a month, I'm plugging into a group of guys who are SIM student, guys and girls who are sim students. I'm plugging in with them once a month. I'm dealing with people who are working on church staffs as a career, and I'm showing up in my work clothes representing myself as a trim carpenter, and the pastor who was teaching this group, he approached me after three months. He's like, I didn't think you'd stick with this. I couldn't figure out how you got here in the first place.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

I thought this is this is great, I love it. Um how do we so I so I run with this question, Jay?

SPEAKER_04 27:52

How do we impress the everyday people around us that God has work for all of us to do? This is this is this is what trips my trigger, this is what primes my pump. How do we bring the everyday people of God into the roles that He wants all of us to play? I'm not I have nothing against pastors, I have nothing against the organization as I say all of this. I just look around and go, if there was 10,000 more people within the region that I live in who believed that they were equipped and gifted to do this, what might the kingdom look like?

SPEAKER_00 28:49

Well, it brings me great joy to even start to go there. Let's put it that way. And I think that was a lot of the reason we launched this ministry, and it's been a journey to uh really understand what that looks like. But I think one of the reasons I started this podcast is for people like you to simply share as you are, because um your day-to-day walk with the Holy Spirit and loving people in front of you is what we need to see multiplied over and over in region. Um, because those that pastor churches have a great privilege of equipping the saints and so forth in their roles and and helping their people, but don't have access to so many people that their people have access to. And I think I I uh I think I'm still discovering exactly how to get all everyone motivated and mobilized to do this, but it starts with people like you sharing.

SPEAKER_04 30:00

And it in a sense, it wasn't fair for me to throw that question in the middle of this, but on the other hand, it's like this is crux, this is the crux of the matter.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 30:10

And I and I'm uh I wasn't drilling you for the answer, it's just like just acknowledging that this is this is the challenge. Um I would I I was at breakfast a few weeks ago. I'm gonna throw this in there. I don't know if it's gonna fly or not. Um, I left the restaurant and I'm driving away and I'm a mile down the street, and there's a large church on the right side of my truck window, and all of a sudden it's as if Jesus is in the truck with me, and he's he's inquiring, what's that building?

SPEAKER_01 30:42

Oh, that's a church. A church, a church, interesting. A church. Well, there's no vehicles in the parking lot. No, it's Saturday, they'll be there tomorrow. Oh, half a mile farther down the street, there's another large church. Well, what's that building up there? That's a church. Another church? Huh? That parking lot is empty too. Yeah, they'll be there tomorrow. Tomorrow's Sunday. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 31:17

And he didn't appear to be upset, it was just like kind of surprised or perplexed or whatever, and then as I kept driving, I had to ask myself, he had disappeared out of the scene at this point in time, but I had to ask myself, what did he want the ecclesia to look like?

SPEAKER_01 31:47

And how did he want the ecclesia to function?

SPEAKER_04 31:52

And I believe the answer is much more along the lines of let's see, there's still seven 24-hour days in a week, and the ecclesia doesn't get turned on and off.

SPEAKER_03 32:10

Right.

SPEAKER_04 32:11

As a human being, we don't turn our hearts on and off. We don't decide when we're gonna breathe and when we're not gonna breathe. We are always on, and as a life-giving ecclesia, we are always supposed to be on.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

So I'm gonna ask you a question similar to the one you asked me. Um, you have opportunities to minister to people who may or may not be following the Lord, but I'm guessing you also have opportunities to minister to believers and encourage them to start living more this way. Am I correct?

SPEAKER_04 33:01

I would say that's correct. I mean, Jay, when I think of you, I think of I think of your primary, well, I believe your primary gifting is evangelistic. Um, I don't necessarily see that as my primary gifting. Um, I think of myself as a disciple maker, which which can pick up and and you do the same thing, I know that as well. But but my primary focus is taking helping a helping a person make the next step, regardless of where they're at. And in that model, evangelism is 101, discipleship 101. And then you get into 201, and you go to 301, and then you get into graduate level classes, etc. Um, and always helping people. And ironically, I'm working with a gentleman. Um, he's working outside of a home that I'm working on the inside of. He's a wonderful believer, and we we met within the last month, we've never seen each other before. And he was sharing with me some things that he's involved with, and we get into these conversations at noon, and about well, you're uh you're a believer, and you have some really good gifts, you're realizing you're listening to God, even though you don't think you are. I'm hearing you what you're saying, you're listening to him, and don't play that down, and don't feel that you don't have anything to offer to a men's group that you're sitting in. Because if you know one more thing than the guy sitting next to you, you have the privilege to show him the one thing that you know, and that's how this works. That's how we build the kingdom, we share what we know with the people around us, and then we help them put it into practice, and then we follow up on it with them if we have the chance, and sometimes we don't. Um but it's always promoting the gifting and acknowledging the giftings and and discerning what are the gifts that this person has, um, and how to help them make bolder.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

Boldness is big in this, really.

SPEAKER_04 35:31

A lot of people are timid. I I I fit the model of timidity. I I was in the dictionary for years as the the poster child for timid, and somehow God broke me out of that. Um and some of that is just taking bold steps, and baby bold steps lead to bigger bold steps, and pretty soon it's like, okay, I screwed that one up, and God made something out of my mess. I guess it's okay if I screw up.

SPEAKER_00 36:06

That's right. We have to try, and there's gonna be like everything in life, a journey in that. Um, I think what you're saying about encouraging other people and just being one step ahead of them, and it that's really, really important because there's listeners, I believe, that are hearing this and they're saying, Well, you know, I'm doing what I can to follow the Holy Spirit in my life. Um, but I want to encourage each of you, as you're listening to Keith, to recognize this isn't just about you reaching the lost, this is also about you encouraging believers around you to move stronger in their gifts, to take greater steps of faith, you know, to be more intentional in their own missional lives as well. And so what God does through you can be an opportunity to share to someone else to encourage them also.

SPEAKER_04 37:04

And Jay, as we get into that, the other thing that happens is as we make the bold moves, we'll see our wild gods step into action.

SPEAKER_00 37:17

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 37:19

And what happens when we get to see our wild god step into action, it's like he hand delivers a testimony to us. You saw me do this. Don't be ashamed to tell other people what you've seen me do. Um, it's the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony. It's the perseverance of the saints. Um, and and and we we live in a culture that's kind of shy with the testimonies a lot of times, I think. I might be wrong. Maybe that's just a subculture that I live in.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

No, I'd say you're right everywhere I've been.

unknown 38:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 38:07

And it's not to blow our own horns, but my goodness, God has a horn that's worth blowing, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:13

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 38:14

Let's blow up the great line.

SPEAKER_00 38:17

Keith, as you think about um just over the years, things that have happened, are there any just stories that you have that you just really like to share that have happened in the context either of your work or your life in your community, where you've really got to minister to somebody, and these are just the memorable ones that come to your mind?

SPEAKER_04 38:40

One is a very slow story of a gentleman that I knew for years, and I would share with him what God was doing. He was a believer, um, a church attending believer. I wouldn't question his faith. Um, but Holy Spirit wasn't real, and much of what we're talking about here was not part of a lifestyle that he was comfortable with.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

And it probably took 15 years to see him come around.

SPEAKER_04 39:18

Um, and our paths kind of went a little bit different directions and came back together, and when they came back together, it's just like, oh, he's actually picked some of this stuff up now. Um, because there was a season where I would be, I'd have to be honest and say, I'd be frustrated with this guy. I'd see him frequently, and it's just like, why can't you just why can't you just trust this and run with this and see what happens? And and I don't know what changed in him, or if it was just a matter of time and all of, or was it another influence that brought the same influence to him? And then he's like, Okay, there's got to be something to this. Um and and that also that also brings up the reality of you and I are not responsible for the results, are we?

SPEAKER_00 40:17

No, no, we're not.

SPEAKER_04 40:20

And there's somebody who loves people and cares for people more than I can. I can't speak for you, but and and that is our God, and he is a very loving, patient, willing to wait personality. Um, and then there's and then there's dynamics of um the fast track. Uh a friend of mine who I'll see tomorrow on a job site, he approached me about two years ago. He's like, maybe you can answer some of the questions that's going on in my life right now, because I can't make any sense out of this. God is showing me pieces of scripture that I wouldn't expect him to show me at the same time, and he's not seeing a theme in this, and he's he's sharing with me what he's seeing, and I'm listening, and I got a pretty good idea what's going on, but I don't dare to tell him. I don't want to freak him out. So I just hold my cards. Three months later, we're talking again, and I just like, all right, I can show you what's going on right now. You are in warrior boot camp, brother. Welcome to the army. God is training you how to be a spiritual warrior. Are you ready? I don't think I want that. Of course. No, I get it, I don't either. But but as you as you grow into it, and he's growing into it at this point in time, and and and had the privilege to discuss a couple different books that he has read and you know, work through some of the sticky points of that stuff with him and help him realize that. And uh our conversations don't always end up going to this stuff. Sometimes it's work-related because we're working on the same job sites, but it's not uncommon that in the course of a week there'll be some kind of a conversation where um I get to see him as more than a carpenter, I get to see him as the warrior that God's building him into.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

That's right. Good. How about a story where you minister to someone who would not profess to be a believer and you saw an impact made on them?

SPEAKER_04 42:50

Taking me back about 20 years, I was doing construction management, and one of the gentlemen that was on a painting crew, um, he was he would have called himself an atheist. Um I've lost track of him. I don't know that he ever did become a Christian, but I know that the the aspect of faith and prayer made an impact on him. And I I say that because um on a Monday morning he approached me early on a job site and he started dumping on me. He's just downloading stuff that had happened, and I'm like, why are you telling me this? Um, and I'm thinking of another story at the same time here. That and it's just like because you listen, because you seem to care, because I don't know, there's something different about you. Well, is it me or is it God? Well, I don't know about the God thing, and you know, and that was kind of the end of that conversation. The story that came to mind in the last moments.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

I was on a large site with a dozen carpenters.

SPEAKER_04 44:07

And I was there with my crew, and there was another company there. And these other this other company, these guys were party, party guys. They were 20 to 25 year olds. And I'm not profiling when I say this. That's the truth. They partied all weekend long. They had happened to party in a home that was on the edge of a church parking lot on Saturday night. Sunday morning, they're leaving the party as people are rolling into church.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

And the people rolling into church were vocally disapproving of what they were seeing happening.

SPEAKER_04 44:51

And these guys were upset about that. And I'm overhearing this conversation, and it wasn't polite and it wasn't pretty. God focused me on one of the gentlemen in that group. And they all broke, grabbed their tool belts, and went to work. And as this gentleman walked past me, I just I can't even remember his first name, I'll be honest. Um hey, sometime today when you got five minutes, find me. And three hours later, he comes up alongside of me, he says, What's up? I said, I overheard your conversation. And I overheard what happened to you in that church parking lot or next to that church parking lot.

SPEAKER_01 45:34

I said, I'm a believer. That didn't need to happen that way. I'm sorry it happened.

SPEAKER_04 45:44

And on their behalf, I'm just simply saying, I'm sorry that you guys experienced that. And went on to ask if he'd had any experience. Have you ever been? Did you ever experience church? Yeah, my grandma used to take me. I was five or six years old, and then I got to be eight or ten, and we didn't, I didn't go anymore, and my mom and dad never took us to church, and yada yada yada. And at the time, Kellogg's cereal company was introducing, reintroduced Kellogg's cornflakes. And their ad campaign was Kellogg's cornflakes, try them again for the first time. And so I'm standing there speaking to this guy, and I throw the line at him. I says, It's just like cornflakes, it's church. Try it again for the first time. And that was the end of our conversation. And I walked away going, Did you really say that? That's great. And I didn't see this guy for two years.

SPEAKER_01 46:57

Give or take, whatever.

SPEAKER_04 47:00

We're in the same, we're in a home working together. It's just he and I. Middle of the afternoon, I walk through the kitchen where he's installing cabinetry, and he says, Hey, you got a minute? I'm like, sure, what's up? I need to let you know I'm getting married. I'm like, oh cool. I'm just like, okay, whatever. And yeah, he says, by the same pastor that's going to be baptizing my fiance and I in two weeks. Wow. Blew me out of the water, Jay. I'm I was just, whoa, okay, I didn't see that coming. Somewhere in the middle of that conversation, before he had disclosed why he was what was happening, I had asked him, and why are you sharing this with me? And he had stated, because you took time two years ago.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

And so many people would hear a story like that. I mean, you're even sitting there kind of you know kicking yourself after you make that comment. You think it's funny, whatever, it's cheesy. And yet the fact that you cared and you were sincere was the seed of love that brought him to Jesus back to back to the community of faith, everything. It's amazing.

unknown 48:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

Yeah. But that's the freedom that we can have if we agree to partner with our God.

SPEAKER_00 48:31

Last thing I want to ask you, Keith, before we go to prayer here, um, you kind of started this uh interview where you were talking a little bit about how you know it isn't about you building the platform God does, and you know, learning to kind of recognize some of these cues um with people. Talk just a little bit more about that because I believe we have listeners out there, they're hearing this and they're like, I want things like that to happen to me, whether it's strengthening believers, whether it's planting seeds and non-believers, whether it's sharing the gospel, whatever it is. Um, and they're they're just not really sure how they can get to that point. So, what would you say to a person like that? How can they become more sensitive and find themselves on God's platform?

SPEAKER_01 49:31

How do we hear God's voice? How do we know it's Him? Um, if you called me on the phone and didn't introduce yourself, I would know who you are.

SPEAKER_04 49:48

Voice recognition. And the same is true with working with God. It becomes a dynamic of voice recognition. Now, is it an audible voice or is it a nudge and you know it's Him? Is it uh a different type of thought, and you go, that's gotta be God, because I wouldn't string those words together in my mind.

SPEAKER_01 50:17

Um and sometimes it's a heavy thought, sometimes it's a thought that won't.

SPEAKER_04 50:26

I had it a couple weeks ago sitting in a restaurant looking at the back of a lady's head, and I'm like, you want me to go talk to her, don't you? I don't want to talk to her. And I did, I ended up going to talk. He was persistent with me. Um, but it becomes this, and and and this is practice. I'm guessing that anybody who's learned how to ride a bike has probably crashed and burned, and they got back on and they did it again. Um but they had training wheels. So, what are the training wheels for learning to hear the voice of God? Training wheels are to find a person that you know that hears the voice of God, and if they're hearing the voice of God and you start bouncing things off them and say, I think God's asking me to do this, or I think God said this to me. Does that make sense to you? They become the training wheels, and we don't depend just on our own discernment or our own judgment. We we we put it in front of other people that we trust and go, does this make sense? I mean, I still do this today with some of the thoughts that I get. Um, I I did it even this morning with a friend of mine. He's like, is this am I possibly seeing this correctly or is this off cue? Um, because I trust that person and I don't want to get it wrong. Um, but on the other hand, if it's right, I don't want to let it get away either. Um so there's there's some steps that can be taken there. The other thing I think that is a very real piece of that is if we truly want to hear God's voice, and if we ask him to help us learn, being the God that he is, I think he'd have a really hard time saying, No, I'm not gonna do that.

SPEAKER_03 52:33

Right.

SPEAKER_04 52:33

I feel like it's a platform he would jump on with applause and go, I'll I'll get you there.

SPEAKER_01 52:40

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 52:40

I'll get you there. And and if you're obedient and you follow through, um God is more I believe God is more concerned with obedience than he is with performance.

SPEAKER_00 52:57

That's good. Very good.

SPEAKER_04 53:00

I might forget my lines, but if I show up for practice, that's worth something.

SPEAKER_00 53:05

There you go. And he might just give you some new lines.

SPEAKER_04 53:10

Don't be surprised when he does. Right.

unknown 53:13

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 53:14

He's full of surprises. He's full of surprises, and um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:19

Which which makes it always interesting. Um probably have to cut this out, but I'll throw it in there.

SPEAKER_04 53:30

I was doing prayer for a lady who was very significantly demonically oppressed, and I knew this lady's sister, that was the connection. The lady who was oppressed was staying with a sister that I knew. He was in the garage manifesting as a dog this particular day, and her sister was scared to death at her what was going on in her sister's life. Well, just keep working with her. We're gonna pray, we're gonna pray together right now, and Lord that you would keep her from hurting herself, yada yada. We prayed for that lady, and I hung up the phone, I said, I'll see you tomorrow night. I went back to doing my work, which was on my knees, running base moldings down at the floor on a cold hard concrete, and I hear this little voice inside of me asking the question, Have you ever considered deep pride demons? And I laughed out loud because I was immediately taken to the piece of scripture where evil is thrown into the pit of sulfur, burning sulfur.

SPEAKER_01 54:49

And I knew that God was saying, I am gonna overcome. That's right.

SPEAKER_04 54:56

I I knew that he that was the point he was making to me, and now I'm I'm I'm laughing out loud in a victory that I haven't seen in the real world.

SPEAKER_01 55:10

But he's promised me that he's working on it. Have you ever considered deep fried demons?

SPEAKER_04 55:20

It's too wild to even it's too wild to almost put out there how wild is our God.

SPEAKER_00 55:27

And yet he will triumph, and that's why we can we can move forward in victory, because he's already triumphed, it's just gonna manifest fully someday. Keith, as we close out our time, I'd love for you to just pray for our listeners, um, and then we'll just spend a little bit of time quietly listening to the Lord after you're done praying.

SPEAKER_04 55:53

Well Lord, I just uh I thank you for those who have stuck in this to the end, heard it through, and Lord, that you would um meet them where they're at, help them to realize who you see when you look at them. You've given each of us a role to play, and you've equipped each of us to play that role, and you continue to train us as we step into our roles, and you put others alongside of us who are probably similarly gifted, and in other instances, you put us in teams where gifts work together dramatically. All of this, Lord, to fulfill what has taught us, is that you wanted your kingdom to come here on earth as it is in heaven. That's the season that we live in. That we can see your glory move into the world that we live in. So bless those who are listening. Courage, strength, freedom. Maybe there's something that needs to be released. Maybe there's a fear, maybe there's doubt. Lord, that you would increase faith. I know how small a mustard seed's worth of faith is.

SPEAKER_00 59:37

Amen. Thank you, Keith, for coming on the podcast today. It's wonderful to have you.

SPEAKER_04 59:48

Well to be here.

SPEAKER_00 59:49

Truly was.com slash partner.