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Traces of Trauma
Traces of Trauma
Moral Injury and Faith w/ Larry Brant
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By Brian Arbor | November 27, 2025
About Our Guest
Dr. Larry Brant is a U.S. Navy chaplain of 16 years with 25 years of previous experience as a local minister and has a proven track record dealing with PTSD and moral injury. He is also the author of Restoring the Broken: A Ministry Leader’s Guide to Understanding and Healing Moral Injury. While written for ministry leaders, the book is intended for anyone seeking to understand moral injury and how to support those affected by it.
Episode Summary
Together we navigate an in-depth conversation on moral injury, how it is distinct from PTSD, and its impact on identity, values, worldview, and personal faith. We explore how moral injury shows up across military service, faith communities, sexual abuse, and more, and why traditional trauma frameworks often fail to provide remedy.
Core Topics
What is Moral Injury - and How Does It Differ from PTSD?
The Impact On Faith and Challenges of Returning to Spiritual Practice
Restoring Connection, Finding Safe Companionship, and the Path Toward Restoration
Key Takeaways
Moral injury is not a lack of belief, but a loss of connection.
This can result in withdrawal, self-punishment, and a belief in one’s own unforgivability rather than fear or hypervigilance.
Moral injury doesn’t need answers - it needs companionship.
Healing these wounds is best supported by sitting compassionately with someone’s pain and listening without judgment, and resisting the urge to offer solutions or changes in perspective.
Safe spaces enable healing across disciplines.
Whether in therapy, faith communities, families, or peer groups, restoration begins when individuals are met with steadfast companionship in their darkest inner landscapes, are allowed to be fully seen, and are received with quiet love and grace.
Memorable Quote
“People don’t need quick fixes. They need someone to sit with them in the ashes long enough to believe that beauty can rise from it.”
Connect w/ Our Guest:
Website: https://restoring-the-broken.com/
99¢ BOOK DOWNLOAD:
Get it on Amazon on release day, February 3rd, 2026!
Or visit his website to get on the waitlist
With Gratitude for Our Sponsors:
Embrace The Darkness: Somatic Breathwork for Grief and Healing | embracethedarkness.org
Practical Sanctuary: Sensory Interior Design | practicalsanctuary.com
Connect with Brian:
Website: https://tracesoftrauma.com/
Email: brian@tracesoftrauma.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/tracesoftrauma
Facebook Community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/tracesoftrauma
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tracesoftrauma/
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/brianarbor
[Brian Arbor] 15:07:58
Welcome to Traces of Drama, where we explore the quiet echoes that trauma leaves behind and the gentle path of healing.
[Brian Arbor] 15:08:05
I'm your host, Brian Arbor, inviting you to join me in conversations that honor our stories, our struggles, and the strength and grace it takes to move forward.
[Brian Arbor] 15:08:14
This is a safe space to listen, reflect, and connect in the shared journey beyond our trauma.
[Brian Arbor] 15:08:22
Welcome back, everybody, and I'm really excited to be having a conversation today with Larry Bryant.
[Brian Arbor] 15:08:31
He's, uh…
[Brian Arbor] 15:08:33
former, uh, military chaplain.
[Brian Arbor] 15:08:35
And, uh…
[Brian Arbor] 15:08:37
has a background in, uh, moral injury, actually a book coming out about it recently, and before we got together for this episode, I got to read the first chapter of that book pre-release.
[Brian Arbor] 15:08:51
Um, and it poses a really…
[Brian Arbor] 15:08:55
interesting, and I think important…
[Brian Arbor] 15:08:58
Um, question and framework for…
[Brian Arbor] 15:09:01
Uh, the kind of trauma that comes from major events.
[Brian Arbor] 15:09:06
Whether it's combat, sexual trauma, um…
[Brian Arbor] 15:09:11
something familial, something that actually happens, uh, in the church.
[Brian Arbor] 15:09:17
Um, there are…
[Brian Arbor] 15:09:20
aspects of…
[Brian Arbor] 15:09:22
trauma that are more…
[Brian Arbor] 15:09:25
loss of sense of self, a violation of identity.
[Brian Arbor] 15:09:30
than, uh, an incident-related triggering
[Brian Arbor] 15:09:35
like a persistent…
[Brian Arbor] 15:09:38
carried, um…
[Brian Arbor] 15:09:41
safety trigger.
[Brian Arbor] 15:09:42
They're the kinds of traumas that are, um…
[Brian Arbor] 15:09:46
Guilt, shame…
[Brian Arbor] 15:09:49
embarrassment, uh…
[Brian Arbor] 15:09:51
And, like, a break in belonging and belief.
[Brian Arbor] 15:09:55
And, uh, I personally have found that my, uh,
[Brian Arbor] 15:10:01
delving into PTSD work.
[Brian Arbor] 15:10:04
Um, isn't…
[Brian Arbor] 15:10:07
really equipped to handle that side of…
[Brian Arbor] 15:10:12
Um, what I personally have been through. So, I was glad to, uh, run across
[Brian Arbor] 15:10:19
this conversation, and I can't wait until this book is released to be able to read it.
[Brian Arbor] 15:10:26
Um, and, uh, so we're gonna delve into that today. Anything else you want to say, uh, by way of introducing yourself?
[Larry Brant] 15:10:34
Uh, no, well, uh, I'm an almost former military chaplain. I've got about 5 months left in the Navy.
[Brian Arbor] 15:10:41
Aha!
[Larry Brant] 15:10:41
Uh, super close.
[Larry Brant] 15:10:44
But, uh, I think other than that, you covered it very well.
[Brian Arbor] 15:10:48
Awesome. So…
[Brian Arbor] 15:10:50
there's… the…
[Brian Arbor] 15:10:53
you know, PTSD is fairly young.
[Brian Arbor] 15:10:56
In terms of, uh,
[Brian Arbor] 15:10:58
the history of…
[Brian Arbor] 15:11:01
psychology.
[Brian Arbor] 15:11:03
Um, we transitioned from
[Brian Arbor] 15:11:06
conversations of shell shock and, uh, like, basically no hope, broken diagnosis into post-traumatic stress disorder, and…
[Brian Arbor] 15:11:17
Um, treatment.
[Brian Arbor] 15:11:19
that's targeted for the kinds of…
[Brian Arbor] 15:11:24
Um, event-specific residual triggers.
[Brian Arbor] 15:11:28
that we sometimes carry.
[Brian Arbor] 15:11:32
Um, but moral injury is an even newer…
[Brian Arbor] 15:11:38
phrase that I'm, like, running into. Like, it's currently emerging.
[Brian Arbor] 15:11:43
Um…
[Larry Brant] 15:11:43
Mm-hmm.
[Brian Arbor] 15:11:45
And… go ahead.
[Larry Brant] 15:11:45
But it's… it's been…
[Larry Brant] 15:11:47
It's been around a while. Actually, the…
[Larry Brant] 15:11:49
The phrase was, uh…
[Larry Brant] 15:11:52
coined, for lack of a better term.
[Larry Brant] 15:11:54
by a psychiatrist by the name of Shea, who worked for the…
[Larry Brant] 15:11:58
VA. Uh, and uh…
[Brian Arbor] 15:11:59
Mm-hmm.
[Larry Brant] 15:12:01
he wrote a book
[Larry Brant] 15:12:04
called, uh, Achilles in Vietnam.
[Larry Brant] 15:12:07
Uh, which is really where this concept began to start to emerge.
[Larry Brant] 15:12:12
And he saw it,
[Larry Brant] 15:12:14
in his… exactly what you were saying, he saw it in his work with veterans in the Veterans Administration,
[Larry Brant] 15:12:22
And realized that it really didn't fit into the parameters of PTSD, that it was something
[Larry Brant] 15:12:30
different. It was about when we violate
[Larry Brant] 15:12:34
or transgress.
[Larry Brant] 15:12:37
our… our ethics, our morals, our spiritual beliefs and values,
[Larry Brant] 15:12:43
And it just…
[Larry Brant] 15:12:45
breaks us.
[Brian Arbor] 15:12:47
Yeah. Um…
[Brian Arbor] 15:12:49
And one of the…
[Brian Arbor] 15:12:52
One of the ways, in my own experience, that that breaking
[Brian Arbor] 15:12:57
shows up is, uh…
[Brian Arbor] 15:13:00
It was a particularly…
[Brian Arbor] 15:13:03
violent break in my…
[Brian Arbor] 15:13:05
Sense of self?
[Larry Brant] 15:13:07
Mm-hmm.
[Brian Arbor] 15:13:08
And, uh…
[Brian Arbor] 15:13:10
my…
[Brian Arbor] 15:13:13
uh, like, my total belief set.
[Brian Arbor] 15:13:16
about the world.
[Brian Arbor] 15:13:18
And, um, including my faith.
[Brian Arbor] 15:13:23
Uh, it wasn't so much a, you know,
[Brian Arbor] 15:13:26
Where was God? Why did this happen to me? Like, where were you?
[Brian Arbor] 15:13:32
Um, that was all younger, divorce-centered.
[Brian Arbor] 15:13:36
Questioning.
[Brian Arbor] 15:13:40
Uh, but really, like, uh…
[Brian Arbor] 15:13:43
a profound…
[Brian Arbor] 15:13:47
experience of…
[Brian Arbor] 15:13:49
Um… like, there can't… there just can't be anything out there.
[Brian Arbor] 15:13:56
And while…
[Brian Arbor] 15:13:59
I don't…
[Brian Arbor] 15:14:01
believe that, while I don't want that to be true.
[Brian Arbor] 15:14:06
Any attempt to reconnect to…
[Brian Arbor] 15:14:10
Um, my…
[Brian Arbor] 15:14:13
former faith, or to find some kind of spiritual practice that
[Brian Arbor] 15:14:19
like, fit and helped me feel whole.
[Brian Arbor] 15:14:23
Um, hasn't resulted in success.
[Brian Arbor] 15:14:27
So, uh, you know, you come from a…
[Brian Arbor] 15:14:31
Christian background.
[Brian Arbor] 15:14:33
Um, as a military chaplain, there's, you know, you have the ability to kind of
[Brian Arbor] 15:14:40
hold these kind of conversations so that they're open for people of
[Brian Arbor] 15:14:44
different beliefs.
[Larry Brant] 15:14:47
Yeah.
[Brian Arbor] 15:14:47
Um, so whether it's…
[Brian Arbor] 15:14:51
uh… you know, the father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, or it's…
[Brian Arbor] 15:14:57
uh… you know, one of the…
[Brian Arbor] 15:15:01
or anything else, really, like a Buddhist, Muslim…
[Brian Arbor] 15:15:06
Uh… um…
[Brian Arbor] 15:15:08
the, like, spiritualism,
[Brian Arbor] 15:15:10
There's…
[Brian Arbor] 15:15:12
Something in our experience as human beings that gets rattled.
[Brian Arbor] 15:15:17
When we go through a major incident like this that shakes our belief in…
[Brian Arbor] 15:15:22
Um, like, who we are,
[Brian Arbor] 15:15:25
where we belong, and whether there's…
[Brian Arbor] 15:15:30
Um, a place for us…
[Brian Arbor] 15:15:33
in, like, the design of the universe, or if there really even is a design.
[Brian Arbor] 15:15:39
And if we're maybe just…
[Brian Arbor] 15:15:41
like, pointless…
[Brian Arbor] 15:15:44
like, pointless individuals wandering around,
[Brian Arbor] 15:15:48
Like, making messes until our time's up.
[Brian Arbor] 15:15:50
Um, so, to go from, like, uh, like a…
[Brian Arbor] 15:15:56
powerful belief in
[Brian Arbor] 15:15:58
the, um…
[Brian Arbor] 15:16:01
goodness of humanity.
[Brian Arbor] 15:16:03
to, like…
[Brian Arbor] 15:16:05
Are we all just a bunch of idiots wandering around, and does anybody even care? If I keep breathing?
[Brian Arbor] 15:16:14
Um, it's a big shift.
[Larry Brant] 15:16:16
That's…
[Larry Brant] 15:16:18
It's tumultuous.
[Larry Brant] 15:16:21
Um, it's… it's a huge shift.
[Larry Brant] 15:16:25
But it's one, quite frankly,
[Larry Brant] 15:16:28
that in doing this work with moral injury, I've seen over and over and over.
[Larry Brant] 15:16:35
that the… the pain of some of the decisions that were made
[Larry Brant] 15:16:42
And those residual effects that you talk about.
[Larry Brant] 15:16:45
just has a…
[Larry Brant] 15:16:51
almost like an earthquake in a person's life.
[Larry Brant] 15:16:54
You know, you mentioned being rattled.
[Larry Brant] 15:16:56
I think that's an excellent…
[Larry Brant] 15:17:00
analogy, because it just… it just shakes a person to their core.
[Larry Brant] 15:17:04
And…
[Larry Brant] 15:17:07
you know, we hear about, you know,
[Larry Brant] 15:17:10
Guilt says I did something bad, shame says I am bad.
[Larry Brant] 15:17:15
Moral injury says…
[Larry Brant] 15:17:17
I'm all of these, and I'm unforgivable to…
[Larry Brant] 15:17:20
Ah, I can't get the word out. Unforgivable.
[Larry Brant] 15:17:23
In addition, um…
[Larry Brant] 15:17:26
And so, as… as…
[Larry Brant] 15:17:29
what the message I'm trying to get out
[Larry Brant] 15:17:31
is there is a path to restoration,
[Larry Brant] 15:17:35
It's… it's not an easy one.
[Larry Brant] 15:17:38
And I think the church needs to be a part of that path, and the church needs to begin
[Larry Brant] 15:17:45
providing a safe space for people.
[Larry Brant] 15:17:49
And I'm not saying all churches aren't safe spaces, that's not what I'm trying to say.
[Larry Brant] 15:17:56
But I am saying that
[Larry Brant] 15:17:58
is that there's a lot of places
[Larry Brant] 15:18:01
There's a lot of pastors, there's a lot of churches that
[Larry Brant] 15:18:06
don't understand the concept of moral injury.
[Larry Brant] 15:18:10
And…
[Larry Brant] 15:18:13
they don't… when they come face-to-face with it, they don't really know what to do.
[Brian Arbor] 15:18:17
Mm-hmm.
[Brian Arbor] 15:18:19
Yeah, there's, um…
[Brian Arbor] 15:18:22
you know, I had… so, my…
[Brian Arbor] 15:18:24
personal background is, uh, you know, there's also
[Brian Arbor] 15:18:28
some moral injury that comes at the hands of the church at times.
[Larry Brant] 15:18:33
You're not wrong.
[Brian Arbor] 15:18:33
Whether it's, um…
[Brian Arbor] 15:18:35
you know, uh, abuse with someone in power,
[Brian Arbor] 15:18:39
Um, or for me, it was grappling with…
[Brian Arbor] 15:18:44
Um… feeling different.
[Brian Arbor] 15:18:47
Um, being gay, trying to not be gay…
[Brian Arbor] 15:18:51
trying to, like, find my way to be who the church said I was supposed to be, and never being able to really
[Brian Arbor] 15:18:59
feel any differently.
[Brian Arbor] 15:19:01
Um, and feeling like I'd never fit.
[Brian Arbor] 15:19:06
Like, I wasn't one of God's children.
[Brian Arbor] 15:19:08
Because…
[Brian Arbor] 15:19:11
like, this was it.
[Brian Arbor] 15:19:14
Um,
[Brian Arbor] 15:19:16
And so there are…
[Brian Arbor] 15:19:18
you know, there are safe spaces, there are…
[Brian Arbor] 15:19:23
churches and pastors and advisors who…
[Brian Arbor] 15:19:28
can hold space and listen even in the face of
[Brian Arbor] 15:19:33
Um, things that don't necessarily fit inside their doctrine.
[Brian Arbor] 15:19:37
But then there are those others.
[Larry Brant] 15:19:37
Mm-hmm.
[Brian Arbor] 15:19:40
who wouldn't talk to someone like me, still, today.
[Brian Arbor] 15:19:46
Um… uh…
[Brian Arbor] 15:19:49
And… it… it makes it hard…
[Brian Arbor] 15:19:53
to know how to initiate those conversations, where to turn.
[Brian Arbor] 15:19:58
Um, to be met with, uh, a sense of…
[Brian Arbor] 15:20:05
understanding and, like, a framework for
[Brian Arbor] 15:20:07
healing, rather than…
[Brian Arbor] 15:20:11
an assignment to go read a series of passages, reflect, and…
[Brian Arbor] 15:20:16
miraculously be, like, healed.
[Brian Arbor] 15:20:20
As a result of…
[Brian Arbor] 15:20:22
or, like, sitting and having someone quote.
[Brian Arbor] 15:20:27
Scripture and doctrine to you, and feeling like that's supposed to make it all better.
[Brian Arbor] 15:20:33
So, how…
[Brian Arbor] 15:20:35
How do we…
[Brian Arbor] 15:20:37
begin to…
[Brian Arbor] 15:20:41
approach our institutions of faith
[Brian Arbor] 15:20:45
with this kind of broken peace in ourselves,
[Larry Brant] 15:20:51
Well, the…
[Larry Brant] 15:20:53
That's an excellent question.
[Larry Brant] 15:20:57
And I would… it would be my hope.
[Larry Brant] 15:21:01
that the institution would reach out to you, but you and I both know that doesn't always happen.
[Larry Brant] 15:21:08
what I'm trying to do…
[Larry Brant] 15:21:10
is to educate pastors.
[Larry Brant] 15:21:14
to be safe places.
[Larry Brant] 15:21:17
And to educate
[Larry Brant] 15:21:19
the people, the ministry leaders,
[Larry Brant] 15:21:23
to be willing and sit down and listen
[Larry Brant] 15:21:27
to the hard stories.
[Larry Brant] 15:21:30
without…
[Larry Brant] 15:21:33
without trying to come back and say, okay, here's how you fix it.
[Larry Brant] 15:21:39
you can't hear it right now, but…
[Larry Brant] 15:21:44
you know, when I illustrated that with Brian, I did my knife hand, which is big in the military.
[Larry Brant] 15:21:51
Um, and uh, you know,
[Larry Brant] 15:21:53
or sometimes, and this has happened,
[Larry Brant] 15:21:57
Uh, I've had… I've had, uh…
[Larry Brant] 15:22:00
a leader in the Marine Corps,
[Larry Brant] 15:22:02
bring a young Marine to me, literally drop them at my door, and say,
[Larry Brant] 15:22:08
Fix this Marine Chaplain.
[Larry Brant] 15:22:11
like, I can just miraculously
[Larry Brant] 15:22:13
you know, give them a…
[Larry Brant] 15:22:16
Holy pill, and boom, he's fixed. Um…
[Larry Brant] 15:22:22
A lot of times, that's how our pastors approach people.
[Brian Arbor] 15:22:27
And especially in the military.
[Brian Arbor] 15:22:29
Where we're…
[Larry Brant] 15:22:30
Yeah.
[Brian Arbor] 15:22:32
reduced from…
[Brian Arbor] 15:22:34
human beings with a heart and an opinion,
[Brian Arbor] 15:22:38
And a personal sense, like a personal moral compass.
[Brian Arbor] 15:22:44
that, um…
[Brian Arbor] 15:22:47
we're often, um…
[Brian Arbor] 15:22:49
Unable to follow in that environment.
[Brian Arbor] 15:22:53
It's, uh, follow orders, do what you're told, um, whether it feels right or not, that's… that's what…
[Brian Arbor] 15:22:59
you're here for, and um… to do otherwise…
[Brian Arbor] 15:23:06
uh… puts us subject to…
[Brian Arbor] 15:23:09
like, military.
[Brian Arbor] 15:23:12
like martial law, rather than…
[Larry Brant] 15:23:14
Yeah.
[Brian Arbor] 15:23:15
civilian law, it's different. Like, we don't have…
[Larry Brant] 15:23:18
It's very difficult.
[Brian Arbor] 15:23:19
the right to follow
[Brian Arbor] 15:23:21
what we believe.
[Brian Arbor] 15:23:24
in military service.
[Brian Arbor] 15:23:26
And it puts us in a unique position to…
[Brian Arbor] 15:23:31
Um, come up against these kinds of, like, spiritual injuries.
[Larry Brant] 15:23:37
Yeah, I mean, you know, obviously there's a purpose for the military.
[Larry Brant] 15:23:43
And we train people
[Larry Brant] 15:23:46
Our business is war. Let's just be that blood.
[Larry Brant] 15:23:50
And because our country has to have a defense.
[Larry Brant] 15:23:54
And we train people to kill.
[Larry Brant] 15:23:58
to… to defend our nation.
[Larry Brant] 15:24:01
We don't always do a good job
[Larry Brant] 15:24:06
of training them
[Larry Brant] 15:24:09
how to deal with what they've done.
[Larry Brant] 15:24:12
Because taking a life…
[Larry Brant] 15:24:16
you're killing something made in the image of God.
[Larry Brant] 15:24:20
And that tears at the sole.
[Larry Brant] 15:24:26
And that's just one example of moral injury.
[Larry Brant] 15:24:29
And then they come back…
[Larry Brant] 15:24:32
And they realize…
[Larry Brant] 15:24:34
And sometimes it's kind of tucked away for a while.
[Larry Brant] 15:24:39
But then 5, 10…
[Larry Brant] 15:24:42
20 years later,
[Larry Brant] 15:24:46
They come face-to-face.
[Larry Brant] 15:24:50
with the truth that they have taken a life.
[Larry Brant] 15:24:53
or they have hurt someone, and maybe they haven't taken a life, but maybe they've permanently injured someone.
[Larry Brant] 15:25:00
or done other some time of ethical…
[Larry Brant] 15:25:04
or moral behavior, or even spiritual behavior that was…
[Larry Brant] 15:25:08
We know others wrong.
[Larry Brant] 15:25:11
But they felt like in that situation,
[Larry Brant] 15:25:14
there was a… there was a bad choice and a worse choice.
[Larry Brant] 15:25:18
Um, and… and… and now they're grappling with that.
[Larry Brant] 15:25:23
And they feel like…
[Larry Brant] 15:25:26
I'm infected with evil.
[Larry Brant] 15:25:29
And they step back from their faith, or maybe they're told they're… sometimes they might even be told that they're infected with evil because of what they've been done.
[Larry Brant] 15:25:39
by some misguided individuals.
[Larry Brant] 15:25:41
And…
[Brian Arbor] 15:25:41
Or at least have been in service to it.
[Larry Brant] 15:25:44
Yes. Correct.
[Larry Brant] 15:25:47
And, uh…
[Larry Brant] 15:25:49
they step back from what they believe is their faith,
[Larry Brant] 15:25:52
They step back from their families,
[Larry Brant] 15:25:56
They step back from their friends, and they just…
[Larry Brant] 15:25:59
They just isolate themselves and try to have as little to do with others as possible.
[Larry Brant] 15:26:05
Because now they believe that they're this mess,
[Larry Brant] 15:26:09
And the more they interact with other people, they're going to rub their mess off on them, too.
[Brian Arbor] 15:26:14
Yeah.
[Larry Brant] 15:26:17
And…
[Larry Brant] 15:26:19
what I'm trying to do is get the message out
[Larry Brant] 15:26:24
that your mess doesn't have to be permanent.
[Brian Arbor] 15:26:26
Yeah.
[Larry Brant] 15:26:28
And that there is a path to come back.
[Larry Brant] 15:26:31
But it's… it's… it's not a light switch.
[Larry Brant] 15:26:35
And I think, and… and…
[Brian Arbor] 15:26:35
Yeah.
[Larry Brant] 15:26:38
I think you would probably agree with me.
[Larry Brant] 15:26:42
is sometimes we in the church
[Larry Brant] 15:26:44
We'll… we'll read a doctrine,
[Larry Brant] 15:26:47
We'll read a piece of scripture,
[Larry Brant] 15:26:49
And we'll say, okay, you're fixed now.
[Larry Brant] 15:26:53
Go forth to likewise.
[Larry Brant] 15:26:55
And I think the human experience needs more than that.
[Brian Arbor] 15:26:58
Mm-hmm.
[Larry Brant] 15:27:00
The human experience needs for us to sit with them in their pain.
[Larry Brant] 15:27:05
And to… to…
[Larry Brant] 15:27:08
not necessarily say everything's going to be okay, because it may not.
[Larry Brant] 15:27:14
but that they don't have to be in that.
[Larry Brant] 15:27:17
alone.
[Brian Arbor] 15:27:18
Right.
[Larry Brant] 15:27:19
And that, uh…
[Larry Brant] 15:27:24
there may… there may be a path to walk back from all of this pain.
[Larry Brant] 15:27:29
and hurt, and suffering.
[Larry Brant] 15:27:33
And if… and if done properly,
[Larry Brant] 15:27:37
then they may even can one day,
[Larry Brant] 15:27:40
help others do the same.
[Brian Arbor] 15:27:43
Yeah.
[Brian Arbor] 15:27:45
You know, you mentioned, uh…
[Brian Arbor] 15:27:49
forgiveness.
[Brian Arbor] 15:27:52
Uh, and there are…
[Brian Arbor] 15:27:55
You know, there's whether or not
[Brian Arbor] 15:27:57
we're still…
[Brian Arbor] 15:28:00
uh, worthy, lovable, forgivable, redeemable.
[Larry Brant] 15:28:04
Mm-hmm.
[Brian Arbor] 15:28:05
Um, in the eyes of our…
[Brian Arbor] 15:28:08
our community of faith.
[Larry Brant] 15:28:10
Mm-hmm.
[Brian Arbor] 15:28:11
And then… even if we are,
[Brian Arbor] 15:28:17
uh… there's the matter of whether we're lovable, forgivable, redeemable in our own eyes.
[Larry Brant] 15:28:24
Yeah, sometimes that's the bigger issue.
[Larry Brant] 15:28:29
you know, someone might think,
[Larry Brant] 15:28:33
you know, I'll talk about forgiveness all day long. Say a pastor who has had a moral failure.
[Larry Brant] 15:28:40
I'll talk about forgiveness all day long, but because of what I've done, that really doesn't apply to me.
[Larry Brant] 15:28:48
And… it…
[Larry Brant] 15:28:52
If we… if… if we can come alongside those folks,
[Larry Brant] 15:28:57
And sit with them in their pain.
[Larry Brant] 15:29:00
And not brush it under the rug.
[Larry Brant] 15:29:04
But say, God… God loves you.
[Larry Brant] 15:29:09
God wants to forgive you.
[Larry Brant] 15:29:13
But be honest and say, I think a bigger issue is you're…
[Larry Brant] 15:29:17
struggling with forgiving yourself.
[Brian Arbor] 15:29:20
Well, and there's a…
[Brian Arbor] 15:29:25
There's a piece where…
[Brian Arbor] 15:29:28
Forgiveness.
[Brian Arbor] 15:29:31
Still…
[Brian Arbor] 15:29:34
holds a sense of wrongdoing.
[Brian Arbor] 15:29:40
And forgiveness is tricky.
[Larry Brant] 15:29:44
you're… you're not wrong.
[Brian Arbor] 15:29:45
Um, and it doesn't include understanding.
[Larry Brant] 15:29:50
Mm-hmm.
[Brian Arbor] 15:29:51
Or compassion.
[Brian Arbor] 15:29:53
And the, uh…
[Brian Arbor] 15:29:56
understanding and compassion being missing.
[Brian Arbor] 15:30:00
are a big part of the experience of this kind of injury, this kind of trauma.
[Brian Arbor] 15:30:07
Like, nobody gets it.
[Brian Arbor] 15:30:11
And for our listeners, I just, um…
[Larry Brant] 15:30:11
Yeah.
[Brian Arbor] 15:30:14
you know, this podcast is part of my personal journey.
[Brian Arbor] 15:30:22
And we're right up against an area where…
[Brian Arbor] 15:30:26
I really struggle.
[Brian Arbor] 15:30:29
So…
[Larry Brant] 15:30:32
Well,
[Brian Arbor] 15:30:32
you know, I try to keep it together and have a good interview.
[Brian Arbor] 15:30:38
But this is hard stuff!
[Larry Brant] 15:30:41
It is. And I just…
[Larry Brant] 15:30:44
First of all, I want to say
[Larry Brant] 15:30:46
Brian, thank you for…
[Larry Brant] 15:30:49
trusting us enough to see
[Larry Brant] 15:30:54
the real you.
[Larry Brant] 15:30:55
Instead of putting on a fake persona.
[Brian Arbor] 15:31:03
Yep.
[Larry Brant] 15:31:07
And… you know, as we talk with people about moral injury, and just like what you said, there's that compassion,
[Larry Brant] 15:31:14
There has to be compassion.
[Larry Brant] 15:31:17
You know, if you… if you look in the Bible,
[Larry Brant] 15:31:20
If you…
[Larry Brant] 15:31:23
know anything about the story of Job.
[Larry Brant] 15:31:26
You know, Job had everything taken away.
[Larry Brant] 15:31:29
He lost his riches, he lost his property, he lost his family.
[Larry Brant] 15:31:35
His wife even said, why don't you even just curse God and die?
[Larry Brant] 15:31:40
And then 3 friends showed up.
[Larry Brant] 15:31:45
And they did great.
[Larry Brant] 15:31:49
Until they open their mouth.
[Larry Brant] 15:31:53
I mean, they sat with him in his pain for a week.
[Larry Brant] 15:31:57
Which was wonderful.
[Larry Brant] 15:32:01
And then they try to explain everything away.
[Larry Brant] 15:32:05
And that's where they tanked it.
[Larry Brant] 15:32:08
Instead,
[Larry Brant] 15:32:10
of just sitting with them and just…
[Larry Brant] 15:32:14
being with him in the moment, and being as…
[Larry Brant] 15:32:17
Sometimes we can't say…
[Larry Brant] 15:32:21
This is all going to work out great.
[Larry Brant] 15:32:27
Because that's being dismissive.
[Brian Arbor] 15:32:27
Yeah.
[Larry Brant] 15:32:31
What we can say is…
[Larry Brant] 15:32:36
This is… this has been terrible, this has been messy.
[Larry Brant] 15:32:41
But I love you as a friend,
[Larry Brant] 15:32:43
And I don't want you to go through this all by yourself.
[Brian Arbor] 15:32:48
There's a…
[Brian Arbor] 15:32:50
there's a part of us on…
[Brian Arbor] 15:32:54
The other side of that…
[Brian Arbor] 15:32:57
who feels like we do a disservice.
[Brian Arbor] 15:33:00
to our family.
[Larry Brant] 15:33:02
Mm-hmm.
[Brian Arbor] 15:33:04
Bye.
[Brian Arbor] 15:33:05
Not being able to be any different.
[Larry Brant] 15:33:08
Mm-hmm. You feel like you're…
[Brian Arbor] 15:33:08
And… asking them to sit with us for…
[Brian Arbor] 15:33:14
As long as it takes.
[Brian Arbor] 15:33:16
And the truth is, it might be a lifetime.
[Larry Brant] 15:33:20
The truth is, it might be.
[Brian Arbor] 15:33:22
It doesn't have to be.
[Larry Brant] 15:33:23
But…
[Larry Brant] 15:33:25
No, it doesn't have to be.
[Brian Arbor] 15:33:25
But for a lot of us so far, it has been…
[Larry Brant] 15:33:30
And…
[Brian Arbor] 15:33:32
that were in relationships where there are
[Brian Arbor] 15:33:37
holds.
[Brian Arbor] 15:33:39
in our heart,
[Brian Arbor] 15:33:41
And we don't know how to let someone in.
[Brian Arbor] 15:33:45
And it feels… it doesn't feel right.
[Brian Arbor] 15:33:50
to ask someone to sit with us.
[Larry Brant] 15:33:50
But…
[Brian Arbor] 15:33:53
through all of that pain that…
[Brian Arbor] 15:33:56
They may never understand that they don't have a hand in.
[Brian Arbor] 15:34:00
And, um…
[Brian Arbor] 15:34:04
It doesn't…
[Brian Arbor] 15:34:07
like, there's gotta be…
[Brian Arbor] 15:34:09
something other than being set apart.
[Brian Arbor] 15:34:14
And, you know, what you're pointing to
[Brian Arbor] 15:34:18
Uh, for…
[Brian Arbor] 15:34:20
churches, pastors, and organizations is…
[Brian Arbor] 15:34:25
Uh, an invitation to…
[Brian Arbor] 15:34:29
interact with that kind of pain.
[Brian Arbor] 15:34:32
in a new way.
[Brian Arbor] 15:34:34
That's actually…
[Brian Arbor] 15:34:37
helpful.
[Brian Arbor] 15:34:40
Um, instead of, uh…
[Brian Arbor] 15:34:47
I can't even imagine how to describe it. It's like your house is falling apart, and somebody shows up with a bottle of nail polish.
[Brian Arbor] 15:34:56
to repaint your house.
[Larry Brant] 15:34:57
That's
[Larry Brant] 15:34:59
Yeah. Yeah.
[Brian Arbor] 15:35:00
And it's like, great, thanks for that. And what you really feel like saying is, fuck you, this was pointless.
[Brian Arbor] 15:35:09
And…
[Brian Arbor] 15:35:11
They're who you trust.
[Brian Arbor] 15:35:13
who you should be able to turn to for support.
[Brian Arbor] 15:35:17
And they don't know how to support.
[Brian Arbor] 15:35:19
So,
[Brian Arbor] 15:35:24
Uh… I'm…
[Larry Brant] 15:35:25
Today, I…
[Brian Arbor] 15:35:25
Go ahead.
[Larry Brant] 15:35:26
how to support.
[Larry Brant] 15:35:28
But I'm gonna figure it out.
[Larry Brant] 15:35:31
than to show up with the nail polish.
[Brian Arbor] 15:35:33
Yeah.
[Larry Brant] 15:35:35
But…
[Larry Brant] 15:35:38
so many of us, we feel like…
[Larry Brant] 15:35:45
We hate saying we don't know.
[Larry Brant] 15:35:49
We say… we hate saying, I don't know how.
[Larry Brant] 15:35:54
Um, and many of us in the ministry…
[Larry Brant] 15:35:56
You know, there's… in the ministry, there's this thing called the Superman Syndrome.
[Larry Brant] 15:36:01
And that's where we have to be the person with all of the answers.
[Larry Brant] 15:36:11
But I think it's more honest,
[Larry Brant] 15:36:13
It's more helpful,
[Larry Brant] 15:36:16
If we can honestly say
[Larry Brant] 15:36:18
I don't know the answer to that question, but I…
[Larry Brant] 15:36:21
Darn it, I'm sure gonna find out.
[Larry Brant] 15:36:25
And I'll be with you through this.
[Brian Arbor] 15:36:32
And on, like, on my side of things, what…
[Brian Arbor] 15:36:38
what's taken so long to get to?
[Brian Arbor] 15:36:41
And what still…
[Brian Arbor] 15:36:43
seems like this unbelievable act of bravery for some people, even though I don't feel that way here.
[Brian Arbor] 15:36:51
is to hit the point where I say, I don't know how to heal this.
[Larry Brant] 15:36:56
Mm-hmm.
[Brian Arbor] 15:36:57
But I'm gonna keep trying.
[Larry Brant] 15:37:02
Yeah. Yeah.
[Larry Brant] 15:37:05
I would rather have someone say,
[Larry Brant] 15:37:08
I don't know, but I'm gonna keep trying.
[Larry Brant] 15:37:12
than to BSmic.
[Larry Brant] 15:37:16
And I… but I think sometimes…
[Larry Brant] 15:37:21
Sometimes in the ministry, we really struggle with that, because
[Larry Brant] 15:37:24
We… we don't want to appear like we…
[Larry Brant] 15:37:27
don't have the answers, or maybe some crazy thought that we think we're letting God down if we don't have all the answers.
[Larry Brant] 15:37:34
Hello, we're only human.
[Larry Brant] 15:37:38
You know, um…
[Larry Brant] 15:37:41
But we have, I think,
[Larry Brant] 15:37:44
If nothing else, we need to become a safe place where people can
[Larry Brant] 15:37:51
share their hurt without judgment.
[Larry Brant] 15:37:56
you know, whether it's…
[Brian Arbor] 15:37:57
Um,
[Larry Brant] 15:38:01
This is something I did.
[Larry Brant] 15:38:03
I killed a person in combat,
[Larry Brant] 15:38:06
I… you know, I hurt somebody with what… with the words that I said.
[Larry Brant] 15:38:16
I didn't know how to treat this illness, and I had to let this person die.
[Larry Brant] 15:38:24
whatever the situation may be, or…
[Larry Brant] 15:38:27
Even, like you were talking about with the sexual trauma,
[Larry Brant] 15:38:31
I don't like how my body reacted in the midst of this sexual trauma. I feel guilty about that.
[Larry Brant] 15:38:39
or the belief that somehow something I did brought
[Larry Brant] 15:38:45
you know, brought the Predator to me.
[Larry Brant] 15:38:50
And they blame themself
[Larry Brant] 15:38:53
for what happened,
[Larry Brant] 15:38:55
Versus it being the fault of that predator.
[Brian Arbor] 15:38:59
Yeah.
[Brian Arbor] 15:39:03
So, in the…
[Brian Arbor] 15:39:06
you know, there's…
[Brian Arbor] 15:39:09
the role that our faith leaders
[Brian Arbor] 15:39:13
could play.
[Brian Arbor] 15:39:16
and facing up to these kinds of injuries.
[Brian Arbor] 15:39:20
with us, alongside us.
[Brian Arbor] 15:39:23
Um…
[Brian Arbor] 15:39:28
Is your book…
[Brian Arbor] 15:39:31
also appropriate for…
[Brian Arbor] 15:39:34
Friends and family members.
[Brian Arbor] 15:39:36
to, uh…
[Brian Arbor] 15:39:41
help them understand how to stand beside someone as they…
[Brian Arbor] 15:39:46
recover from
[Brian Arbor] 15:39:49
this kind of impact in their life.
[Larry Brant] 15:39:53
Now, you know, the book says it's for ministry leaders,
[Larry Brant] 15:39:57
But the truth is, it's for anybody.
[Larry Brant] 15:40:01
what I tried to do, you know, as I mentioned to you when we spoke the other day,
[Larry Brant] 15:40:06
My doctoral dissertation was about educating
[Larry Brant] 15:40:10
civilian pastors and chaplains on what moral injury is,
[Larry Brant] 15:40:15
And why… why we should care.
[Larry Brant] 15:40:18
And how…
[Larry Brant] 15:40:21
Can we help these folks?
[Larry Brant] 15:40:23
And so, as I…
[Larry Brant] 15:40:26
And really, as my editor and I, because she… she was outstanding in this,
[Larry Brant] 15:40:32
you know, pulled all of the
[Larry Brant] 15:40:35
academic language out of it, because I wanted it to be something
[Larry Brant] 15:40:39
that almost anybody could just pick up, read, and say, okay, I get it.
[Larry Brant] 15:40:45
And I talk in there about…
[Larry Brant] 15:40:49
just simple ways
[Larry Brant] 15:40:51
that any individual
[Larry Brant] 15:40:54
can support someone who is struggling with this.
[Larry Brant] 15:40:58
And then, uh…
[Larry Brant] 15:41:01
be a safe place for them.
[Brian Arbor] 15:41:03
Yeah.
[Brian Arbor] 15:41:07
Um, there were a couple pieces in…
[Brian Arbor] 15:41:10
the, uh, chapter that I was able to read.
[Brian Arbor] 15:41:14
that stuck out, and one of the things you say is that moral injury
[Brian Arbor] 15:41:18
is not a lack of belief.
[Brian Arbor] 15:41:21
It's a loss of connection.
[Brian Arbor] 15:41:24
to oneself, to others, and often to God.
[Larry Brant] 15:41:28
Yeah.
[Brian Arbor] 15:41:36
What is that?
[Brian Arbor] 15:41:38
Like, how do you see that?
[Brian Arbor] 15:41:40
from the other side. I mean, I know how I can see that, and how that resonates over here, right?
[Brian Arbor] 15:41:47
But for the…
[Brian Arbor] 15:41:50
Trauma therapists at the VA for the… the…
[Brian Arbor] 15:41:57
trauma-informed social workers for the…
[Brian Arbor] 15:41:59
for the people, we're…
[Brian Arbor] 15:42:02
already talking to, who have either helped some or helped not at all.
[Brian Arbor] 15:42:08
Um…
[Brian Arbor] 15:42:10
How do you get to the point as a practitioner where you can see
[Brian Arbor] 15:42:15
that there's a break in connection
[Brian Arbor] 15:42:17
to ourself, and to…
[Brian Arbor] 15:42:21
Uh, like, feeling like we don't fit in the world.
[Larry Brant] 15:42:24
Well, it's…
[Larry Brant] 15:42:26
you know, as you're talking with people,
[Larry Brant] 15:42:30
You know, there's… like anything else, there's… there's some language that you hear.
[Larry Brant] 15:42:37
Uh, I don't… you know, just as you just said,
[Larry Brant] 15:42:39
I don't fit with anyone.
[Larry Brant] 15:42:44
It would be…
[Larry Brant] 15:42:47
what I… what I've done is unforgivable.
[Larry Brant] 15:42:52
I don't want to be a burden.
[Larry Brant] 15:42:54
to my family with what I've done.
[Larry Brant] 15:42:59
you know, listening forphrases similar to that.
[Larry Brant] 15:43:04
That's how you begin to realize, hey, this isn't… this isn't just PTSD trauma.
[Larry Brant] 15:43:11
This is moral injury trauma.
[Larry Brant] 15:43:14
And… which, quite frankly, the two often go together.
[Larry Brant] 15:43:19
you know, as… in the military, for example,
[Larry Brant] 15:43:24
you know, we were afraid for our life.
[Larry Brant] 15:43:28
that trauma does something to us when someone tries to hurt or kill you.
[Larry Brant] 15:43:34
That does something to you. I mean, it did to me.
[Larry Brant] 15:43:38
when someone tried to kill me in Afghanistan,
[Larry Brant] 15:43:43
My sense of safety left.
[Larry Brant] 15:43:47
And it hasn't returned.
[Larry Brant] 15:43:50
And I'm working with someone…
[Larry Brant] 15:43:53
through that.
[Larry Brant] 15:43:56
I'm also working on it from my faith perspective as well.
[Larry Brant] 15:44:03
And so we… we have to train ourselves
[Larry Brant] 15:44:09
educate ourselves.
[Larry Brant] 15:44:11
on how to listen,
[Larry Brant] 15:44:14
for things that may be moral injury.
[Larry Brant] 15:44:18
That's even if the person feels safe enough to say those things to us.
[Brian Arbor] 15:44:18
Yeah.
[Larry Brant] 15:44:23
Because a lot of times, the person with moral injury just simply shuts down.
[Larry Brant] 15:44:27
And they interact with others absolutely as little as possible.
[Larry Brant] 15:44:33
for fear of getting hurt.
[Larry Brant] 15:44:38
Fear of hurting or infecting others with what they think is inside them.
[Larry Brant] 15:44:43
with what they've done.
[Larry Brant] 15:44:47
You know, I was working with a gentleman who…
[Larry Brant] 15:44:51
you know, something he did on deployment
[Larry Brant] 15:44:54
20 years ago.
[Larry Brant] 15:44:56
And he was so afraid to tell his wife and his…
[Larry Brant] 15:45:02
this child what had happened on that deployment.
[Larry Brant] 15:45:06
that he just kind of shut down.
[Larry Brant] 15:45:10
And…
[Larry Brant] 15:45:12
it was like he said, a broken relationship with them was better than no relationship with them, because he was afraid if he told them…
[Larry Brant] 15:45:20
What happened?
[Larry Brant] 15:45:23
that they would want nothing more to do with him.
[Larry Brant] 15:45:27
And as we were working together in the group that we have here,
[Larry Brant] 15:45:32
We have an 8-week course called, uh,
[Larry Brant] 15:45:36
building, um…
[Larry Brant] 15:45:38
spiritual strength, and I would love to say I invented it, but I didn't. I ripped it off from the VA with their permission.
[Larry Brant] 15:45:45
a wonderful clinical psychiatrist and a VA chaplain created that course.
[Larry Brant] 15:45:52
And we have been doing it here since I got here in
[Larry Brant] 15:45:56
2021.
[Larry Brant] 15:45:58
And just have had some miraculous breakthroughs.
[Larry Brant] 15:46:02
And it's about using our spirituality
[Larry Brant] 15:46:05
reconnecting to it, or connecting to a new one, and…
[Larry Brant] 15:46:10
using that to mitigate our PTSD and moral injury.
[Larry Brant] 15:46:15
And as we worked with him,
[Larry Brant] 15:46:19
he had made the decision
[Larry Brant] 15:46:22
to sit down with his wife.
[Larry Brant] 15:46:26
tell her everything.
[Larry Brant] 15:46:29
he felt like…
[Larry Brant] 15:46:32
I'm… I'm married to this woman, I shouldn't only be showing her
[Larry Brant] 15:46:37
a shadow of who I am.
[Larry Brant] 15:46:42
And he was terrified. God bless him. He was… he was scared.
[Larry Brant] 15:46:47
And he was a big ol' boy. He's a big boy.
[Larry Brant] 15:46:50
I, you know, he's very in…
[Larry Brant] 15:46:53
when he walks into a room, he's very intimidating.
[Larry Brant] 15:46:57
But he was absolutely terrified.
[Larry Brant] 15:47:00
to share what had happened and how it had changed him.
[Larry Brant] 15:47:05
And to his…
[Larry Brant] 15:47:08
wife's credit,
[Larry Brant] 15:47:10
she didn't treat him…
[Larry Brant] 15:47:13
like he was an infection.
[Larry Brant] 15:47:18
She hugged him, she cried.
[Larry Brant] 15:47:21
And she said, thank you.
[Larry Brant] 15:47:23
for finally…
[Larry Brant] 15:47:26
letting me see the whole you.
[Larry Brant] 15:47:29
And I want to be here for you as you get… as you work on this.
[Larry Brant] 15:47:33
And I'm in your corner.
[Larry Brant] 15:47:36
And then he…
[Larry Brant] 15:47:39
carefully shared some things with his daughter, obviously.
[Larry Brant] 15:47:43
There may be some things he… he…
[Brian Arbor] 15:47:44
Yeah.
[Larry Brant] 15:47:45
appropriate to share.
[Larry Brant] 15:47:47
But his daughter had the exact same reaction.
[Larry Brant] 15:47:52
And…
[Larry Brant] 15:47:55
his whole life changed.
[Larry Brant] 15:47:59
from being the grumpy guy at work that nobody talks to,
[Larry Brant] 15:48:04
I saw him the other day. He walks through the halls with a smile, pops his heads in offices, and…
[Larry Brant] 15:48:10
starts immediately talking to people, and…
[Larry Brant] 15:48:13
His work colleagues are like,
[Larry Brant] 15:48:15
What happened to him?
[Larry Brant] 15:48:17
He's like a whole new person. Well, it's because…
[Larry Brant] 15:48:22
He found a safe space and began working on it.
[Larry Brant] 15:48:26
And, uh…
[Larry Brant] 15:48:29
a neat thing that… that he did…
[Larry Brant] 15:48:32
And I commend his VA counselor.
[Larry Brant] 15:48:36
He took the workbook.
[Larry Brant] 15:48:39
the workbook for the 8 weeks for our course.
[Larry Brant] 15:48:42
And he took it to his counselor at the VA and said, I'm… I'm doing this course.
[Larry Brant] 15:48:47
Uh, to try to help me.
[Larry Brant] 15:48:50
you know, with my issues.
[Larry Brant] 15:48:52
And his counselor rearranged her counseling with him to match what we were doing in the course.
[Larry Brant] 15:48:59
So, he would come to the group,
[Larry Brant] 15:49:02
and share things, do the homework, and then when he went to her, she reinforced everything that…
[Larry Brant] 15:49:07
he had been doing.
[Brian Arbor] 15:49:08
Yeah.
[Larry Brant] 15:49:10
And, uh, uh…
[Larry Brant] 15:49:16
When we start to have a safe place,
[Larry Brant] 15:49:23
Where we can share.
[Larry Brant] 15:49:25
Where we can realize
[Larry Brant] 15:49:27
We're not unforgivable.
[Larry Brant] 15:49:32
not…
[Larry Brant] 15:49:34
this bag of mess.
[Larry Brant] 15:49:39
It's amazing to see.
[Larry Brant] 15:49:43
the things that… that God can do.
[Brian Arbor] 15:49:46
Yeah.
[Brian Arbor] 15:49:47
you know, a lot of times this, uh…
[Brian Arbor] 15:49:52
shift in the way we view ourselves and the way we view the world is so…
[Brian Arbor] 15:49:59
fundamental.
[Larry Brant] 15:50:00
Mm-hmm.
[Brian Arbor] 15:50:02
that it doesn't…
[Brian Arbor] 15:50:06
Wow. It doesn't look like something that even can be worked upon.
[Larry Brant] 15:50:11
Yeah.
[Brian Arbor] 15:50:12
It looks like…
[Brian Arbor] 15:50:14
uh, like a discovered
[Brian Arbor] 15:50:16
truth.
[Brian Arbor] 15:50:18
about ourselves, or about our world.
[Brian Arbor] 15:50:22
And, um…
[Brian Arbor] 15:50:24
One of the things that was really helpful in…
[Brian Arbor] 15:50:29
in your Chapter 1 were the…
[Brian Arbor] 15:50:32
Descriptions of what it actually looks like.
[Brian Arbor] 15:50:35
what it can look like.
[Brian Arbor] 15:50:39
I, uh…
[Brian Arbor] 15:50:40
You know, in a church scenario,
[Brian Arbor] 15:50:42
It's slipping out before Communion.
[Larry Brant] 15:50:45
Yeah.
[Brian Arbor] 15:50:49
at service time.
[Brian Arbor] 15:50:51
Uh, in a… in a…
[Brian Arbor] 15:50:54
non-church setting that can look like
[Brian Arbor] 15:50:57
the person who just slips away from the gathering every time.
[Brian Arbor] 15:51:02
Uh, before it's time for the hugs and the I love you's.
[Brian Arbor] 15:51:06
They're out the door.
[Larry Brant] 15:51:08
Right.
[Brian Arbor] 15:51:09
Um, it looks like showing up…
[Brian Arbor] 15:51:13
to, uh, to contribute and volunteer and be of service, and…
[Brian Arbor] 15:51:19
Uh, make difference.
[Brian Arbor] 15:51:23
And to do it so…
[Brian Arbor] 15:51:25
Well, and so wholeheartedly, and to be relied upon in that way.
[Brian Arbor] 15:51:32
Um…
[Brian Arbor] 15:51:35
that…
[Brian Arbor] 15:51:37
we're seen…
[Brian Arbor] 15:51:39
as this bright, shining, strong example.
[Brian Arbor] 15:51:44
But we're never asked…
[Brian Arbor] 15:51:48
what our needs are.
[Brian Arbor] 15:51:53
Um, it can look like…
[Brian Arbor] 15:51:57
self-sabotage.
[Brian Arbor] 15:51:59
Like, self-harm, and whether that's…
[Brian Arbor] 15:52:03
uh… binge eating…
[Brian Arbor] 15:52:06
cutting drug addiction.
[Brian Arbor] 15:52:09
or, like, just…
[Brian Arbor] 15:52:12
general, like, unhealthiness.
[Brian Arbor] 15:52:16
From a sense of feeling, like,
[Brian Arbor] 15:52:19
not worth…
[Brian Arbor] 15:52:21
Uh, not worth caring before.
[Brian Arbor] 15:52:25
ourselves.
[Brian Arbor] 15:52:29
carrying blame.
[Brian Arbor] 15:52:31
for…
[Brian Arbor] 15:52:34
Situations where we had no power.
[Larry Brant] 15:52:36
Yes.
[Brian Arbor] 15:52:40
or, uh, taking ourselves away.
[Brian Arbor] 15:52:44
Uh, before we get to the point, like the… the person you…
[Brian Arbor] 15:52:49
Told your story about where it's time to really…
[Brian Arbor] 15:52:54
lay it all out there.
[Brian Arbor] 15:52:56
It's easier to disappear.
[Brian Arbor] 15:52:59
than to take that step and…
[Brian Arbor] 15:53:02
Like, open up that…
[Brian Arbor] 15:53:05
shattered part of ourselves.
[Brian Arbor] 15:53:07
So, we… we…
[Brian Arbor] 15:53:10
engage, and we're compassionate and brilliant, and kind.
[Brian Arbor] 15:53:15
And then… and then something happens, we're not sure why, but there's this cycle of…
[Brian Arbor] 15:53:23
always having to step away, back out, relationships failing.
[Brian Arbor] 15:53:34
there… there may be moral injury at play.
[Brian Arbor] 15:53:40
For someone who…
[Brian Arbor] 15:53:42
exhibits those behaviors.
[Brian Arbor] 15:53:44
And if you're listening,
[Brian Arbor] 15:53:47
And I've described you.
[Brian Arbor] 15:53:50
like I've described me.
[Brian Arbor] 15:53:53
You know, feeling uncomfortable receiving praise or recognition.
[Larry Brant] 15:54:00
Yeah.
[Brian Arbor] 15:54:00
I…
[Larry Brant] 15:54:03
or any kind of attention.
[Brian Arbor] 15:54:05
Yeah. Like, the, I need to be at the background, I don't need to be seen, I don't need to be known.
[Brian Arbor] 15:54:14
Um, like…
[Brian Arbor] 15:54:17
I wouldn't say this about myself.
[Brian Arbor] 15:54:21
And, uh, if you're listening, you probably wouldn't say this about yourself,
[Brian Arbor] 15:54:26
But…
[Brian Arbor] 15:54:29
what's really going on is some kind of penance.
[Brian Arbor] 15:54:34
some kind of punishment, some kind of trying to atone.
[Brian Arbor] 15:54:40
for what still feels unforgivable.
[Larry Brant] 15:54:44
And feeling like you never can.
[Brian Arbor] 15:54:46
Yeah.
[Brian Arbor] 15:54:51
So I, uh…
[Brian Arbor] 15:54:53
Uh, you know, if you're not a…
[Brian Arbor] 15:54:55
If you're not a minister, a preacher, a faith leader,
[Brian Arbor] 15:55:01
But you're somebody who this…
[Brian Arbor] 15:55:05
resonates with?
[Brian Arbor] 15:55:07
Um…
[Larry Brant] 15:55:07
Or maybe it sounds exactly like someone close to you that you know.
[Brian Arbor] 15:55:11
Well, it's… it's, uh…
[Brian Arbor] 15:55:14
Like, it's a worthwhile…
[Brian Arbor] 15:55:16
Read. And if…
[Brian Arbor] 15:55:21
the church isn't your…
[Brian Arbor] 15:55:26
Um, avenue of faith.
[Brian Arbor] 15:55:31
I invite you to sift that.
[Brian Arbor] 15:55:34
Out of these pages,
[Brian Arbor] 15:55:36
And, uh…
[Brian Arbor] 15:55:40
see what fits.
[Brian Arbor] 15:55:46
You know, we don't, uh…
[Brian Arbor] 15:55:48
In the military, we don't.
[Brian Arbor] 15:55:52
commit ourselves to service.
[Brian Arbor] 15:55:58
So that…
[Brian Arbor] 15:56:00
you know, I don't think anybody walks in…
[Brian Arbor] 15:56:05
expecting to come away.
[Brian Arbor] 15:56:07
So wounded.
[Brian Arbor] 15:56:10
And even though all the evidence
[Brian Arbor] 15:56:13
points in that direction. We're convinced it. It's not gonna be us.
[Brian Arbor] 15:56:20
Um…
[Larry Brant] 15:56:20
Yeah, you're right. I…
[Larry Brant] 15:56:24
I… I joined…
[Larry Brant] 15:56:27
Because of God's calling, because of wanting to help,
[Larry Brant] 15:56:31
You know, as I told you in my story, I joined the Navy at 45. I was just…
[Larry Brant] 15:56:35
you know, old and crazy.
[Larry Brant] 15:56:38
And now I'm getting ready to get out when I turn 62.
[Larry Brant] 15:56:44
I honestly never thought that I would be walking away with PTSD.
[Brian Arbor] 15:56:48
Yeah.
[Larry Brant] 15:56:50
But… and… but I am.
[Larry Brant] 15:56:52
And, um, it took me a long time to be
[Larry Brant] 15:56:57
To be honest, and admit that about myself.
[Larry Brant] 15:57:02
Because I had to be the Superman. I had to be the chaplain everybody depends upon.
[Brian Arbor] 15:57:07
Yeah.
[Larry Brant] 15:57:10
But thanks to…
[Larry Brant] 15:57:13
you know, a loving, supportive wife.
[Larry Brant] 15:57:17
And, um…
[Larry Brant] 15:57:20
friends who were brutally honest to me, whether I liked it or not.
[Larry Brant] 15:57:26
you know, I came to that realization.
[Larry Brant] 15:57:29
And… and began getting the help that I needed.
[Brian Arbor] 15:57:32
Yeah.
[Larry Brant] 15:57:34
And… mortal injury is that way, too.
[Larry Brant] 15:57:41
But the approach, I don't think, is quite so… can be so, you know…
[Larry Brant] 15:57:48
You can blatantly tell somebody, you've got PTSD, you know.
[Larry Brant] 15:57:52
But with moral injury, it's more about
[Larry Brant] 15:57:55
sitting with them,
[Larry Brant] 15:57:58
And maybe saying, have you ever considered?
[Brian Arbor] 15:58:01
Yeah.
[Brian Arbor] 15:58:09
Oh.
[Larry Brant] 15:58:09
And then… and then…
[Larry Brant] 15:58:12
walking that path of restoration with them.
[Brian Arbor] 15:58:18
The, uh…
[Brian Arbor] 15:58:20
The final quote in this first chapter.
[Brian Arbor] 15:58:24
His, um… like, the thing that just kind of…
[Brian Arbor] 15:58:27
Cut me open.
[Larry Brant] 15:58:30
Sorry, I didn't… I didn't mean to cut you over.
[Brian Arbor] 15:58:32
Hey, you know…
[Larry Brant] 15:58:34
But if… but, you know, sometimes…
[Larry Brant] 15:58:38
Surgeons have to have it.
[Brian Arbor] 15:58:38
Sometimes it's what a surgeon has to do.
[Larry Brant] 15:58:41
Sometimes they've got a…
[Larry Brant] 15:58:42
cut you in order to heal you.
[Brian Arbor] 15:58:46
You say people don't need quick fixes.
[Brian Arbor] 15:58:50
They need someone to sit with them in the ashes.
[Brian Arbor] 15:58:54
Long enough to believe.
[Brian Arbor] 15:58:57
that beauty can rise from it.
[Larry Brant] 15:59:00
Yeah.
[Brian Arbor] 15:59:04
And, uh, there are those days
[Larry Brant] 15:59:04
to kind of…
[Brian Arbor] 15:59:14
So, uh…
[Brian Arbor] 15:59:16
I really appreciate you making yourself available.
[Brian Arbor] 15:59:21
Um, on really short notice after our first connection.
[Brian Arbor] 15:59:27
to, uh, record this episode, uh,
[Brian Arbor] 15:59:31
We'll include some information in the show notes.
[Brian Arbor] 15:59:35
Uh, about your book, and would you just tell us a little bit, like, give us a title, uh, I know it's not out yet, but it's coming.
[Brian Arbor] 15:59:43
Where we could find it, etc.
[Larry Brant] 15:59:45
Um, it comes out on February 3rd. On February 3rd, it will be… the Kindle version will be a
[Larry Brant] 15:59:51
available to everyone for 99 cents. Uh, the name of the book is Restoring the Broken, and then the subtitle says, The Ministry Leader's Guide.
[Larry Brant] 16:00:00
to understanding and healing moral injury.
[Larry Brant] 16:00:03
But it doesn't have to be just a ministry leader's guide. It can be literally for
[Larry Brant] 16:00:08
for anyone. Um…
[Larry Brant] 16:00:10
And it will be available on Amazon.
[Larry Brant] 16:00:13
So you can Google me, or, sorry, not Google, but I guess type in the search for Amazon Larry Brandt, L-A-R-R-Y,
[Larry Brant] 16:00:21
B-R-A-N-T
[Larry Brant] 16:00:23
Uh, or you can go to the website,
[Larry Brant] 16:00:28
www.restoring-the-
[Larry Brant] 16:00:34
And you can even sign up for the waitlist if
[Larry Brant] 16:00:37
I don't remember when you said this was coming out. If it comes out before February 3rd.
[Larry Brant] 16:00:43
Um, but, uh, and then the print version will be out on the 4th.
[Larry Brant] 16:00:47
I'm not real sure what the prices are going to be, the…
[Larry Brant] 16:00:51
publisher sets that. I don't really do that.
[Larry Brant] 16:00:54
Um, but…
[Larry Brant] 16:00:58
I hope this will be helpful for people. I didn't…
[Larry Brant] 16:01:02
I didn't really write this book to make money, I, uh…
[Larry Brant] 16:01:05
I wrote it more to get out a message.
[Brian Arbor] 16:01:08
Yeah.
[Larry Brant] 16:01:10
And because ever since, you know,
[Larry Brant] 16:01:15
Ever since I came face-to-face with this, you know, on the battlefield in Afghanistan,
[Larry Brant] 16:01:21
Um, and then again, when I did my…
[Larry Brant] 16:01:26
my VA and my naval hospital rotations.
[Larry Brant] 16:01:34
I thought to myself,
[Larry Brant] 16:01:37
This is something we need to do better.
[Brian Arbor] 16:01:42
Yeah.
[Brian Arbor] 16:01:44
Well, thank you for…
[Brian Arbor] 16:01:47
your work, thanks for your continuation to…
[Brian Arbor] 16:01:51
the field. And thanks for coming here to share with us.
[Brian Arbor] 16:01:55
And to share with me. Uh, everybody, uh, keep an eye out for…
[Brian Arbor] 16:02:02
Uh… say it again? Restoring the broken?
[Larry Brant] 16:02:05
Restoring the broken.
[Brian Arbor] 16:02:06
Uh, coming out on February 3rd on your…
[Brian Arbor] 16:02:11
e-reader devices for 99 cents, pick it up.
[Brian Arbor] 16:02:14
And, uh, you know, if it's, uh, if it's not for you,
[Brian Arbor] 16:02:20
Uh, read it for somebody else.
[Brian Arbor] 16:02:24
Thank you so much.
[Larry Brant] 16:02:24
And thank you… thank you for bringing me on, and…
[Larry Brant] 16:02:28
And letting me share.
[Brian Arbor] 16:02:30
Yeah. All right, and uh… as always, uh…
[Brian Arbor] 16:02:35
This has been a particularly vulnerable episode.
[Brian Arbor] 16:02:39
Uh, more of my, uh…
[Brian Arbor] 16:02:41
personal writing and, uh, and uh…
[Brian Arbor] 16:02:45
personal journey are available on Substack, uh, at Traces of Trauma. You can find us on your social media platforms and anywhere you stream.
[Brian Arbor] 16:02:55
podcasts, uh, please hit that like and subscribe.
[Brian Arbor] 16:02:58
And, uh, drop us a comment. Let us know, uh, how you feel about the episode, how you feel about the show.
[Brian Arbor] 16:03:05
All right, we'll catch you next time.
[Larry Brant] 16:03:12
Alright. Well, thanks for being so vulnerable.
[Brian Arbor] 16:03:15
Yeah, it, uh…
[Brian Arbor] 16:03:18
caught me by surprise today!
[Larry Brant] 16:03:21
But I… I don't… I don't think it took away from the show. I don't think it took away from the…
[Brian Arbor] 16:03:22
Whew!
[Brian Arbor] 16:03:25
Yeah.
[Larry Brant] 16:03:26
from the conversation at all.
[Brian Arbor] 16:03:28
Yeah.