The Bolivian Crisis: Political Agendas and Regional Implications

In this episode, hosts Alberto Souviron, Andrew Thompson, and Julian Seydoux joined renowned Bolivian political analyst, Natalia Aparicio. 

The panel unpacked the complex, multi-layered crisis currently gripping Bolivia. They dive deep into President Rodrigo Paz's unexpected shift from a moderate center-right campaign to an ultra-right "Trumpist" agenda, a move that has alienated voters and sparked massive social unrest. The conversation explores the severe economic reality of a country struggling with dollar reserves and bond repayments, while also dissecting the polarized regional reactions from leaders like Colombia's Gustavo Petro and Argentina's Javier Milei. 

Furthermore, we pull back the curtain on the hidden actors influencing the chaos, including marginalized Vice President Edmond Lara, the historical grip of organized crime and drug trafficking, and the territorial power still wielded by Evo Morales.

Production: Sustainable LatAm

Presenters 

• Andrew Thompson - International journalist & political-risk analyst with deep LatAm coverage (OBG, EIU, Latin News; ex-Head BBC Learning English).
• Alberto Souviron - International journalist and digital comms leader for EM investors; ex BBC/Newsweek/Lloyd’s Register. 
• Julian Seydoux - AI-driven finance entrepreneur (FirmView AI, Fast Audit AI); ex-Moody’s/Consilium; cross-border EM & LatAm focus. 

Transcript

Natalia 0:00

They are trying to give more power to the to agro-industrial uh sector. Um, and they are trying to like um get a get a get a get rid of the social movements in Bolivia that had a lot of power in the last two decades. Um I think Evo Morales has a lot of a lot of money invested there, but I don't think he is the only actor. Um there are multiple actors, and I think those actors are also um pulling their personal interest. So there is a lot of personal interest there.

Introduction

Alberto 1:11

As otherwise, I have with me Andrew Thompson, journalist like me, who is specialized in all what is international affairs, and Julian Seydou, an analyst, an economic analyst who is also interested in all what is happening in Latin America. Today we have a special guest, uh a real expert in Bolivian affairs. That's the topic of today. Her name is Natalia Paricio. She's a well-known Bolivian political scientist who holds a degree from the University of San Simon in Cochabamba. She works as an analyst, content creator, and columnist for various media outlets. She has also collaborated on and conducted research on academic articles regarding the 2019, 2020, and 2025 electoral processes in Bolivia, as well as electoral campaigns in digital media. Her works focuses on topics related to polarization, disinformation, political narratives, and a lot of other topics. I always follow her. Natalia, welcome to our podcast. Uh, I will give you a little bit the mic so you can make a little introduction of yourself and then we can begin to discuss the topic of today.

Natalia 2:29

Yes, well, thank you very much for for the invite. Um I'm happy to um share the information I got here from this three weeks of conflict here in Bolivia. I think there are there are some power and political agreements that are changing, that are turning. So um yeah, uh very happy to to share the information I I have with you guys.

Alberto 2:57

So thank you very much. Natalia, I I will begin with a very straightforward question. Okay why or how did

The Roots of the Unrest

Alberto 3:09

Bolivia get to this situation? What happened? Tell us uh uh in in one or two minutes if you can what what is going on?

Natalia 3:19

Yes, well there's a big difference between um narrative political narrative from Rodrigo Paz in the campaign. He seemed to be uh center right, so um with a very moderate um yeah campaign. So when he got the power, suddenly um we we got like an ultra-right, I would say, uh, with a very, very different agenda. So of course at the very beginning and at the campaign, he seemed to be like a very popular candidate. Um in Bolivia this means like being part of the of the not the the traditional elite, uh but in another space of the sexual of the social sector, right? So um when when he got the power, then we we see we saw the like a very uh a lot of ministers that were not part of the of the part of the of the people that voted for him for him for him. So um there is like uh he he forgot who voted for for him. So this basically is the the main issue, the route, the very route there, but he also got a lot of problems with the fuel, so um a lot of problems with communication. So and yeah, and now um he's doing that a lot he's he's trying to install an agenda that nobody expected. So that is the main issue, but I think there are some of course um geopolitical interests there that we're we we need to look more in detail.

Alberto 5:26

So you took exactly uh this obviously the

Regional Impact and Street Clashes

Speaker 4 5:31

crisis in Bolivia has also a regional impact in a way, and we can see in the latest date how the different governments across Latin America has reacted. Bolivia has already a clash with the president of Colombia, as we know. The President Petro has defending openly the protests and Evo Morales, which ended in the expulsion of the Colombian ambassador, but also the what we call here the blue tide, the the the right that is center, center, right, or right that is more aligned with Trump, has openly defending uh the government of Rodrigo Pass in declarations. The the Shield of America has expressed uh its its preoccupation of all what is happening. President Millet openly defends uh President Paz has sent even a plane with uh what he's telling for humanitarian help, although there is accusation that there were more than humanitarian help, although that's not verified, but clearly it generates uh suspicions uh all around. So obviously there there is a clash. On the other side, when we are looking at international organizations, we can see a little bit these discussions as well. A human rights organization like the Inter-American Human Rights Committee has already expressed its worriness and asking to be careful with the with the use of force, it has to be proportional. But on the other side, it on the international level, I can say, and Andrew and Julian, correct me if I'm wrong, but a little bit the image that has been going out is that the violence are coming more from the from the demonstrators rather than from the government. What do you see inside on that area, Natalia, and how do you see this impact at the external level as well?

Natalia 7:32

So um I would agree with this uh observation. Um so the government decided not to uh move the police and move the military into the streets like repressing people. They are not trying to do that because they know that's gonna be like it's probably to um give them more power, I would say. Um they are just using um gas and they are trying to to dissolve, they are trying just to um just to just to um deactivate this conflict without having death in the streets. Um just but this is just the strategical. They are not caring about um the really needs of these people that try that that are in the streets right now. They are actually all the time stigmatizing them. Of course, on Monday we got uh like a violent day. Um terrible. One pol one um policeman is almost losing one eye. So and well, actually, um there are another deaths that are not confirmed that are not like verified from from the press or or from the um health ministry. So but now um so yeah.

Andrew 9:07

So sorry to interrupt, but could I just go a step back and and ask a question about the the um the political changes that you were describing? So I think you said that um Rodrigo Paz had one agenda to win the elections and now has a different agenda. Um is there anything known? What is he trying to achieve by changing by by going from the center right to perhaps the further right? Um what political or economic objectives is he trying to get at?

Natalia 9:45

So so um

The "Trumpist" Agenda

Natalia 9:50

yeah, but uh to to give uh an international view, I would say it's like the Trumpist agenda that they are trying to install in Latin America. I think is that they are aligned with them. And it's very it's very open. Actually, uh I can't remember the name, but one of the one of the public um functioners from from the United States already already said um like uh supporting the the government. But inside in the national um agenda, um they are trying to give more power to the to agro-industrial uh sector. Um and they are trying to like um get a get a get a get rid of the social movements in Bolivia that had a lot of power in the last two decades. So I think it's like it's like a turn um also in the in the in the power inside Bolivia, right? They are moving from the occidental power to the to the um yeah, oriental power. And I think that's wrong, right? Because during the the mass movemental socialismo, it was turnaround, right? It was more occidental power rather than oriental power. But we are not in in and with this uh president, we were looking for a final um yeah, a final like uh balance between these two powers, regional powers, but we're not seeing that. We're just seeing, okay, this is our turn, and we're gonna do the same as they already did, right? So we're we're not it's not like going forward on the political agenda, we're just entering again to that um dispute of the power of the regional power also.

Julian 11:56

So shouldn't we talk about also the

Bolivia's Economic Reality

Julian 12:00

economic situation that was Bolivia when he came to power? Because from all uh all measures, Bolivia was a failed state and no dollars anywhere and problems with uh no reserves of course to face any um any payments of uh of bonds, uh especially to international creditors, which probably means side uh arrangements with some governments um to you know to to to be able to pay back. The debt doesn't go away. Um and uh and also it means that a lot of the government was was not being paid, probably. Uh many people across were missing wages. So uh coming to power with an agenda is one thing, and I think you mentioned it uh at the time, you know, it's about capturing the power away from whatever whatever the situation was. And from memory, uh the election of Rodrigo Paz was a surprise to at least to most outside commentators, uh, you know, came out of nowhere with Lara and took power. Um which was a surprise also because uh we at the time we could have expected the more uh right-wing governments to so right wing players to be actually more supported by, as you mentioned, the Trump administration or others. Uh and so uh we discussed this uh several months ago, right, Alberto and Andrew, and we thought actually if if there was anyone to win this in the context or geopolitical context, we'd usually take from on a more broader view at a sustainable time when uh looking at between the US and China conflict. Yeah this as a as a as an in-between you know those those those powers. So I think the I just want to I just want to to to to recalibrate your your comment because I think it's really interesting and really important to uh assess what the agenda was, what is changed now, and what is going later. And you're talking now about answer to Andrew about the vision, uh, which I think is is really important. But I just want to add this economic uh side to it, that uh there were a lot of reforms probably needed for the country uh at the time to s to get out of a of a of a really, really bad situation.

Alberto 14:54

One thing to add to all of this regarding the economic situation, I think one of the biggest problems that uh President Basque has had since the beginning of the government is that try to do something and then going back. There's not a clearer direction. Something that in a way has encouraged the protests rather than putting it down. And yes, the agenda has changed. I I think we have to put also the international context. As you say, he has probably aligning more with the Trump agenda, but it's not the only binding in the line of uh of Latin America in that area. There is also, and I think really important to view what is going on in this crisis in Bolivia, because I think it's going to have implications at regional level as well. Bolivia is not alone in the elements of social pressures. Ecuador has had protests not long ago that was quite strong, and President Pobo is having some kind of problem, although he has a right-wing uh agenda, but is not able to put all what he's looking for. Millet is also going, not everything is clear for President Millet. A cast in Chile is having problems, although it's a really new government. So what we are seeing here at regional level also is this clash between two two views of the world, we can say that is clashing, and I think Bolivia is in the inside. Plus, uh at the economic level, with what Chulen is saying, uh uh, and I think we all agree, there is worry uh from any investor, and not only in the Western world, I I would say even China, because Bolivia has important reserves of lithium and other uh minerals that are key for the new economy. But in the current context of social unrest, it's impossible to have any investment. I I think even China must worry about that.

Julian 17:01

Yes, but at the same time, so you know I'm just thinking through, I mean, you can uh Natalia, you can tell us if we are uh if we are wrong, but from the outside, so we we live outside of Bolivia, of course, and we look in and we try to understand what's going on. But for me, there are there are two there are two really important things. So I saw somewhere that there were some rumors that there was a change of cabinet, uh, or the new people will be coming in, and apparently the the ones uh closer to uh Macron Buddy, the the guy uh Doria Medina um were probably gonna be taken out and some new people will be put put in and so on. And that comes possibly as a result of the discussions or the dialogue that is ongoing with with the various parties. But before that, importantly on the economic side, uh, you know, there were some really uh really big movements for for for international. So when we look into Bolivia from international investors' perspective, uh importantly, I think, uh so I I'm I'm biased because I used to work there, but the rating agency uh Moody's who gives a rating to countries on the on the government debt of countries, took Bolivia out of the lowest uh of the lowest uh qualification uh rating that it had and put it up a bit with a positive outlook based on measures that were uh taken by the government, probably impulsed by the more right uh you know, probably by the current um uh ministers uh who were who were closer to the more right of of of uh of um of uh Rodrigo Pass. And uh and they were able to then you know pay off a a bond of $356 million to international to outside to repay, which is not you know, it's a lot of money in Bolivia, uh especially if you don't have any dollars anywhere. And but that gave you know that that would enable them to have to you know to set a scene about them being serious about you know uh about doing something for international investors, uh and so on. Um and to me that's a that's a really big sign that's some probably some things that were possibly needed for the country, you know, some sharp measures to see what was going to happen and so on. And possibly let me let's let's play devil's advocate. Maybe it was part of the past plan to have this this agenda of more right-wing people at the beginning to you know so that you can blame them today, take them out with a with the with the c with the social convulsion, uh, and bring in new people with a new agenda that maybe are more focused on you know on national um uh on national you know measures that that you know uh need to be taken to discuss with the various powers of the various parties because Bolivia has been very complicated in terms of the occident, the orient, the various regions, the all the all the various kinds of of different powers, uh movement socialists of different kinds, and and and so on. So uh you know is there a plan there, or is it just completely uh out of the blue that this is not the case? Because we have to remember one thing is that Rodrigo Paz, even though he even though he wasn't on the scene when he came to power, uh it was a surprise, does have a lineage of someone who was in power very close to him, and surely understands you know, you know, political power very well, and understands and has contacts all across, you know, all across the the various various people, you know, all the the various uh you know different powers around uh around there. So, you know, that's the this is I'm just putting it out there as a thought.

Alberto 21:17

What what is your view, Natalia, in in that area? Do you think there is a Machiavellian plan on the part of the government?

Julian 21:25

Oh he's really lost the the papers here.

An Improvised Government

Natalia 21:33

Well, it's not a secret, it is uh an improvised government. They decided the the people that it was going to work with them like the same week, I would say they won the election. Um, I think now with the presence of uh Fernando Cerimedo, um he has a clear agenda. Like he knows what he wants to do, but the problem is that he is. a very very weak government it's very weak so um we already knew that bolivia needs to have like an open market legislation right now we need to liberalize a little bit the economy we need it because nobody wants to to to put money here and everybody knew it but nobody knew it was going to be so radical the change so uh I think they are they are they are trying to to do something like in the in the in the middle of the of the of the craziness of discovering a big estate that they they didn't knew how to they didn't know how to how to how to how to control it how to administrate it to ministry so um well we we need to we we have to say that the inflation is control they took a lot of economic measures that are okay that it uh the the the economic measures are working I have lost uh you natalia a little bit if you can come back again okay I don't know I don't know I'm i'm i'm hearing it fine yeah perfect yeah that it randomly just come to life as well like yeah yeah suddenly everybody's happy here so the economy is working right right now it is working i mean the the the situation in bolivia is like very very very bad um but um the problem is that nobody believes thing also because we we need to understand that they won with rodrigo pas and edman lara edman lara was the representation of the popular uh sector but um rodrigo pas took like a lot of measures to took from him a lot of power so he is nil right now uh the vice president ed man lata has no power to do anything so you will actually i i was i was listening at an interview actually the vice president only was only present in two meetings of the cabinet can you imagine that how is that possible and he was the popular figure there so let's maybe a little bit uh

The Shadow Actors

Natalia 24:41

so sorry to interrupt let's let's play a little bit also um looking with the international audience because it's really interesting what you are explaining uh around all the divisions and the internal divisions that has been affecting the government and I think make this government weak in the other time Julian is right that also I think well recognize coming from a deep economic and social crisis that this government inherited it's not easy to government and just six months has has happened but let's say that that the measures that has been in play in so far haven't been the most uh the most effective ones so far but on the other side there are other players and and uh and there are international players as as well around that and I will be a little bit controversial but there are two big players here who who who are putting their the the their weight as well Evo Morales for some for one side with all the problems but he is and the accusations against him uh but also and he is this line that it says okay organized crime especially drug trafficking has been losing uh power uh apparently uh through this offensive uh Marset and and uh and all what is happening and is also fueling this kind of protests uh around when you're seeing from the outside sometimes uh it says oh the the organized crime is trying to take uh Bolivia I know that reality is much more complex than that but we cannot ignore also these are active players uh and uh and aren't putting their weight in all what is happening am I correct or I mean yeah yeah for sure um I think Evo Morales has a lot of a lot of money invested there but I don't think he's the only actor um there are multiple actors and I think those actors are also um pulling their personal interest so the there is a lot of personal interest there um for example the the the Mario Argollo he's from the central obrera boliviana uh a union here in bolivia so he's also I think he's also trying to to to to be a candidate if there are elections and if the if rodrigo paz um um is is like demeaning the the the the position that he has so there are a lot of actors that are trying to to pull their personal interest and for sure um drug trafficking is is part of the political Bolivian political politics actually like I I would say like from the 70s from the 80s we got dictatorships that were um working with with drug trafficking here yeah so it is not is new is it is not something new that that it's the power and of course now with the fracture of the movimento al socialismo and also with the with the with the broken um um lines with Marset with Sebastian Marcet here in Bolivia is like the drug trafficking power is is also moving is also looking at what where they are going to land so right now we are leaving those effects from a from a war from a war power to see where they are gonna where they are gonna be and also with Sebastian Marcel many many people politics um people from justice people from from police they're going to to to to be part of the of the people that need to be processed like they will be uh having some process there in the US so there's a lot of people that is going to be that is going to lose with Sebastian Marcel capture and we also got like a murder uh like two weeks ago from a from a big magister of uh justice here in Bolivia so we're leading like terrorism also right now and so I don't know where it's going to land but it's is another it's another sh the shifting so so uh it's it's it's the shifting of power so yes you have uh you have uh a government that was so a power call it uh a movement or party whichever way uh that was that was present in power for about 20 years also and then the country was basically left in ruins and lots of people wanted to take the power and now everyone's playing it out.

Julian 29:43

Um and I think you are probably right in saying that the government is weak uh at the moment uh and yet uh you have so many different people who have different incentives so you mentioned quite rightly that I think it was very interesting what you said about the vice president not being part of of very many meetings because if Rodrigo Paz um falls then he becomes president for while so his incentives are mixed I would say uh and then you have this person that you were talking about earlier Mario then you have uh then you have a variety of I would say politicians that are you know that are supported by some of the uh people who are doing the blockades some of them which are quite extreme views uh then you of course have uh the the the the grandfather the you know um Evo Morales who is the gunner is probably hiding somewhere I imagine in the Chapale uh and and and still has some kind of of powers uh himself and and it seems that when you have these types of crises just to go you know just to go through I mean if you are in the middle of the chaos you don't see the order. So when you look from a from afar actually all you see is you know just pieces moving.

Andrew 31:25

And so we what we notice and we know we I think we mentioned with Alberto many times over and since we talk about uh you know in the geopolitical context there's a big movement by the US to uh assert itself across the subcontinent from Mexico to all the way down to Argentina and in a very variety of states it does it through uh through you know through through what it can do and and uh and certainly the uh the special services the CIA is probably active all over the region in Bolivia uh I understand that the DAA has come back more recently and you know as part of it is probably other people who who are also you know running around and I would imagine that that's you know it's it's like uh it's so from afar it seems at this present moment from from the information that we get it seems that there's a there's a race between who's gonna fall first is it gonna be Rodrigo or is it gonna be Evo and uh because right now I imagine that you know being the the the Americans probably if they if they said publicly that they would support Rodrigo that should also give a signal to all the alliances uh be it narco traffickers and and so on that you know when you have the US behind you it's it's pretty serious especially when you have a US who's completely unleashed can see it's they are you know they're all over Julian Julian forgive me for interrupting yet again but um did not US Secretary of State Marco Rubio make a speech I think it was yesterday where he was um announcing support for um for the Bolivian government I I can't remember the word he used but it was nar narco terrorism came in somewhere as his way of describing yeah and that's and that's and that's a way to justify uh actions isn't it I mean that's we've seen it in in other places yeah uh let let's be a little bit machelical in in in this but there's something that we have to expect Evo Morales who has also his own intelligence uh system behind behind has already says that that he's going to be detained so he's expecting and I think he's nervous because probably that is what's going to happen.

Alberto 34:03

And I as you said Julian the DEA is inside I don't think they are just advising the government I think they are doing more than that. But also something that you mentioned Natalia before and I think this is really important the political advisor is somebody who is openly aligned with the Trumpian current so we we we can see this. With Julian we we we always say in a cynical way that Trump does nothing by improvisation everything is planned around and sometimes I'm saying in a cynical way that all of this is happening in order to get more power at the Trump administration not necessarily the man. Exactly no no yeah that that that's what I mean the Trump administration that that's a good thing to say because uh Andrew is right uh Marco Rigo has openly criticizing and criminalizing the protests and also Christopher Landau I know that we are close in time so I I would like to to go like all all rounds and but I'm going to to ask you a very quick question to you Natalia so

Predictions for the Future

Alberto 35:20

what is going to happen with Rodrigo Paz can see can he survive or or or what can we expect?

Natalia 35:25

Because it's really a delicate situation but so far what what do you think is going to be the end of this story uh I think we won't have an end right now I think he won't fit fall at this time so I think it's gonna be activated again in October I would say I think something will happen will will happen will will happen at that time I don't think he will necessarily finish with the mandate that's gonna be five years I don't think so we'll be able to survive until that time but I think it's not it's not right now it's not gonna be right now um I think they are trying to uh from the other side the block the people that are doing the blocks I think they are they are rethinking and doing another strategy and to see how they can they can uh put Rodrigo Paz aside and I I think it's the international left also being part of this I think so now we are just a territory in dispute and Evo Morales and and the other people like the the people that is manifesting right now they have the territorial power in Bolivia is very important the territorial power the the street the political street and the the government right now only has the institutional um power the institutional tools so so we will see what is going to win at the end if they are going to be able to to to put another another another person another president that won't um that that won't uh be with the with the Trump agenda and we'll say I think Trump is also um I I think the Trump administration is also trying to install this because they are gonna the the the elections are coming soon so and and also Evo Morales actually the Evo Morales has a sexual assault there um issue that he's not solving right now and there are a lot of victims here in Bolivia he's being an abuser and nobody's talking about that and the sexual issues there are terrible and international community are not seeing that part we're talking about a sexual criminal so I think that's the only way to deactivate the movement that everywhere else is leading so because it's not for a person that is um sexually assaulting a lot of women here in Bolivia has again the power so let's see we will see I will give a little bit the final round to Julian and Andrew to to say so go ahead guys I I'd um take a gamble um and say that uh Rodrigo Paz will survive the next 12 months um they will be very difficult um he will receive some support from if you like uh the ideological right in regional governments and and some support which he already has from the United States but I think the risk of um a change of government um will remain quite high um so I think I think that's probably you you have to bear in mind I think the way politics works is sometimes is planned and sometimes it's surprising and unexpected and I think that the it's possible that um the new government could face uh claims of mismanagement and other things which might lead to it being replaced. So I think the majority might if you say what what is your forecast I'd say um Rodrigo pass for another 12 months.

Julian 39:44

So so Julian so so um yeah I I think there's uh so I I think there's some chaos which is not home bred induced so it comes from outside. I sh I I I have this feeling uh and um and that's temporary to some extent these are the the shifting powers values you know the the some monies who work into some people have been taken or yeah been taken out so you know a new order needs to be established. Uh the government appears to be fairly weak at the moment the the country that has no money. There's these uh social disorders such as the blocca are are are basically costing the economy quite a bit. I imagine if I was a empresario in in out there I'd be pretty pretty pissed off. And um and that that has its cost and therefore it's only a certain amount of time that everyone can sustain this because in the same ways that you know you see some people marching towards La Paz with with guns and so on well they need to have bullets they need to have they need to have supplies they need to have food also so it's it can only survive a certain amount of time during which a lot of things can happen. And so whether it survives this I think is uh it seems that the government may I think I think probably to be very quite cynical will probably uh will probably survive this and actually maybe thrive behind it because once the order is re-established and it seems to me that at any time now we could see a similar fate to Evo Morales than the one that we saw for Maduro or for some other big uh you know uh other big other other people in in other on in in the region and so uh and that's one thing and of course that uh that may cause its own problem but um uh but if I look at some of the measures that have been taken if I think as I did as a financial analyst a long time ago and I look at at what it was at the at the country at some of the measures actually it doesn't look so bad. And if we think that uh right now the the entire world is is facing a lot of issues beyond this you have uh we talk a lot about Brazil Brazil is is a is a is a global giant it's a regional superpower global giant and its growth will also bring together growth to Bolivia if we think about what the US needs in terms of of uh resources energy minerals and all the rest then Bolivia has a lot of all of that and it's just a question of whether the population can benefit from the demands that come from the outside. And it seems to me that actually if the Bolivians are fighting against each other it just benefits outsiders rather than than than the people inside which would be a shame. So I think the dialogue dialogue between the various parties is really important and needs to be done as soon as possible. And if that actually does happen and maybe there's some change in the cabinet and maybe some key measures need to be taken then then and then you know thing may go actually quite well for that government or for a new government. The question by Lara is really interesting because I think as a vice president he needs to be possibly heard more um and and maybe that's the opportunity of this social unrest is that out of this May become a more important figure or not.

Alberto 44:04

That's a good uh question. I will finish in my area and we will say goodbye with this. But one thing that you say, Natalia, and something that we were speaking some time ago with you, Julian, and you several times. When we're talking about Bolivia, there are three elements that we have to talk about governability. Because I think the problem is about governability rather than economic or or financing, as Julian says. And you have to have governability at the institutions, in the parliament, but also governability in the streets. And what we are seeing today is that's where the key issue is. If that can be solved and some bridges are building, maybe Bolivia is going to have a better future. But we have to see what is going to happen. I think as Julian says, dialogue is key. We will see. And I hope to have you more talking not only about Bolivia but across about the region anytime.

Natalia 45:30

No, thank you very much for the invite. It was a pleasure to me to talk with you. Um, well, um I also am a big fan of dialogue. I I trust on democracy. Hopefully, we can solve our our issues on that path. But we are facing a deep, deep crisis, institutional crisis, political um party system crisis, ethical crisis, economic crisis. So um we are just having um a crisis that it was seen to be here a long ago, time a long time ago. We already knew that something like this is was going to happen. So yeah, hopefully we can we can restart, hopefully we can open a new cycle and a stable cycle, hopefully. And at least our sovereign sovereignty is is um uh protect, I think. Hopefully. Thank you very much.