From Cults to Care: A Conversation with Dr. Tabitha a NXIVM cult survivor

In this episode, Jessi sits down with Dr. Tabitha Chapman, Executive Director of the Freedom Train Project — a nonprofit proYouviding support services for those leaving coercive groups and cult environments. They explore her path into advocacy, her personal experiences, and what healing can look like on the other side.

You can find her services here: The Freedom Train Project - The Freedom Train Project Incorporated

Artwork By: Zummi

Music By: AJ Music Group

Lyrics By: Jessi Hersey

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Listening to voices, stories can be strange. It's good to open up to new stories and finding backstories of how people came to be, only to free the mind of what blinds us with only a glance, gives us a chance to see people be who they truly are. From silent voices to shining light. Stories that inspire awareness and change. I welcome you to Jesse's Stories, Unheard Voices. Hey everyone, welcome to Jesse Stories. Uh, this is an inclusive space. If you're just new here, thanks so much for being here. I hope you like and subscribe and watch all the videos that are out currently. And today I have a special guest who does a lot of work with victims/slash survivors, however they see themselves, that are ex-members of cults like myself. And her name is Tabby. If you'd like to introduce yourself, Tabby.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Yeah, sure. My name is Tabby Chapman or Tabitha Chapman. I am the executive director at the Freedom Trade Project. And yeah, we we provide victim services for people who leave cults, whether you consider yourself a victim or a survivor or none of the above, and you just need support leaving a cult or leaving a coercive environment, whether that looks like a group of people or domestic partner relationship or overly protective parents, we help provide services for those things, especially if there are crimes involved. Thank you, Tabby.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

And then what inspired you to make Freedom Train a reality? Since that's the name of your business.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

Yeah, so the Freedom Train project is a 501c3 nonprofit. I was inspired to make it because I was in the middle of doing filming for the seduced documentary with Cecilia Peck and Inbel as the as the directors. And we were sitting around as a group, and this scene never made it to air, but we were sitting around as a group and we were talking about why there are people still like involved with Keith after everything had come out. There's these people doing like choreographed dances in front of the prison and just other stuff that we generally viewed as sort of bizarre displays. And so we were trying to figure out why they were still there. And in that sort of meeting, I felt like, what if there were an organization that could like help them? Because ultimately it felt like it came down to the sunk cost fallacy for many of them. So, meaning like they've invested so much of their lives that if they were to walk away, they'd be losing and leaving everything more than what they've invested. So they'd have no friends, they'd have no finances, they'd be starting over from ground zero. And so I thought, what if there was an organization out there? And that is how the freedom for a nice.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

I really like that a lot. And my next question is can you give background in your story of Nexium, of just you being in Nexium and getting out of at least what you're comfortable with?

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Oh yeah, sure. Nexium was a for me, it was a personal growth organization. I didn't have, I had left before it devolved into the public media, you know, circus of being a sex cult. And but during my time there, I was learn I was taught to believe that in order to grow, things have to be painful and uncomfortable. And I had kind of had that too when I was growing up, that like no pain, no gain kind of belief or attitude about things, you know. And also through my upbringing, I had a very low self-esteem and I didn't have any friends, I didn't have a community. When Allison had given me sort of, I guess, an ultimatum more or less of like if you want to work with me, I'd feel like a spice girl song. If you want to work with me, then you have to listen carefully. No, then you have to it is a good song. If you want to work with me, you have to do these courses. And I did want to work with her, but then the courses also promised humanity and community and all these things. And I had always suffered from like a severe sense of loneliness growing up, always, and so man, though that sure sounded great to not have to feel that loneliness anymore, you know. So that was like my entrance into Nexium. As it turned out, I even though I got married over there and you know, I roped my then wife into Nexium, I never really lost that sense of loneliness because that that's coming from some other place, you know. But actually, I think in the grand scheme of things, it's probably coming from autism, like the feeling that I have with autism, uh, through autism. Not really feeling like I understand society and feeling like I can't relate to things, you know. But I didn't have a diagnosis of that back then at all. So yeah. So anyway, yeah, and then my path out was long. Lots of little things, lots of little ugly things that helped me take one step at a time. So one one big ugly thing happened, if you will, and from that experience, which is where someone had outside of the group had s intimidated me by standing really close to me and staring at me for like a half an hour. That's creepy. And it was really scary and creepy, and but not quite illegal per se, you know. So I but somehow it got to you know the bronze veneers that occurred, and they had called me in and using coercion, they convinced me to try to go straight to City Hall and get him arrested. And so that really messed with my mental health a lot. So I was I sort of like slipped into sort of this paranoid space where I was afraid he was going to hurt me, you know, if he's going to find out and then come get me and hurt me, and that was very terrifying. So I escaped there. I escaped the coercion from Nexium because I felt like I didn't have any other choice but to do those things, you know. And then I escaped the fear of from the fear of of him hurt potentially hurting me. The guy was a big guy, I mean a big guy. So I was just very scared of him. But I still continued being involved with Nexium through coaching and um my own coach and then through coaching. And then just like I said, a series of very ugly things occurred that just eventually made me kind of slink away quietly. I had known the whole time I was there that they engaged in like litigation terrorism with people. And so I didn't want to be on the other end of that because there's just zero ways I could afford that or handle that or any of that, you know. So I just decided to be quiet and not say anything at the time. And that's my that's my story in a nutshell.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

I definitely can relate to a lot of what you said though, in my own experience, at least in Twin Flames universe, especially with the loneliness getting in, and then well, and autism. You relate there automatically.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

There we go. There is that little thing.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

And coaching. We both had that in our cults.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

Were you a coach or did you?

SPEAKER_01 7:41

I was an ascension coach. I was almost to the inner circle when I left.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Oh, okay. Yeah, I was the web developer and I and I for everybody. So I wasn't, I mean, I was a coach, but I was kind of given the apprentice status. They had given me one coachy, which is what we called them coachy, and then that didn't work out because she couldn't handle that I was a lesbian and it was against her religion, and so they removed her up from under me. And remember that being kind of mixed feelings, like it's her right, but at the same time, like that's so freaking discriminatory. Yeah, so it was a mixed bag for me. But I I also wouldn't want to coach someone who doesn't like me, you know. So that it was like I said, it was a mixed bag of emotions for me on that. Yeah, so for the most part, I just did like the shadowing work and all the dirty work, all the cleaning, all the everything else.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

So yeah, that's we did have similar discriminatory things, like with Jeff and Shelea. They normally, if you are part of the LGBTQA, plus even if you like I came out prematurely when I wasn't ready, but due to what they teach. So saying if you want to claim this person, you need to be fully true to yourself. Well, that wasn't things true to myself. But besides that, I won't go into that here. They had specific sectors, which is very divisive of everything. Most of the sectors I was a part of was outside of the group itself to bring people in. So the LGBTQIA plus, even as a coach, so bringing people in, people that were disabled, special needs, bringing people in, that was their own little sectors, and you were the managing person or helping in some way within it. They gave you a title that seemed big so that you were there and didn't question why there was only three or four people doing the same job you were.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

So there was that without actually having to deal with anyone saying, No, I don't want to work with you because you're this. We never had any of that. They instead just had people like you come to you.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

Yeah. And I don't know how much of that occurred with anyone else, but there weren't in Nexium, there were not a whole lot of LGBT people. They had a pretty general like white straight. What? White straight people. Yeah, pretty much, but definitely they did not approve of trans people like at all. And that was very sad to me. I remember fighting. I was a fighter. So I remember fighting the Pamela K. Fritz for the Jeanette's program because it was only available to heterosexual, cisgendered. I'm not sorry, not heterosexual, cisgendered women. And I was like, well, why? You know, and so they had all these reasons why. And I'm like, those are stupid reasons. So they didn't they didn't like to hear me say that. So but I I did, I'm like, okay, then why don't you make a program that's for trans women, you know? And they were like, basically, no, that's never gonna happen. So yeah, they were there's not there was not a whole lot of trans people enrolled in tenexium, which is you know, good because we don't want them to have to go through all that extra trauma either.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

No, no one does. That's terrible trauma, but yeah, okay. Sorry, I felt myself on the verge of choking.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

No, we're both I'm I'm over here getting my caffeine in maybe. Okay, then I'm gonna drink more. Commercial for diet Dr. Pepper.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

It's not Pepsi, so it doesn't fall under the category I checked. I guess I'm gonna choke anyway, but just let it happen, Jersey.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Just let it happen.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

My throat just feels like being mean. But anyways, we shall continue. So it's our little commercial break. This is the one I've asked everyone so far, because it's just fun to ask in general. But what does a typical day of a psychologist look like since I know you are a PhD, right? Psychology? Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Yes, I'm a PhD candidate still, but very close to PhD. So I I wear multiple hats. So I don't have a whole single day as a psychologist per se, but some days I have a single day as a therapist, which is under the umbrella of psychology. So what that would look like is this Wednesday is a good example. I do I provide therapy both online and in person. So it it consists of following up with clients, making sure that they're gonna be available for that appointment that is coming up, or doing the billing. That's how I kind of start my day, just making sure that administrative stuff is ready to go. And then I start my sessions with clients. And typically I do virtual in the morning because sometimes I have like a mild narcoleptic response to narcoleptic, yeah, response to driving. I don't tend to drive, like to drive long distances first thing in the morning. My office is about 20 minutes away, so that's about like the limit that I can handle. So I want to make sure that I'm like good and ready to drive into the office. So I do my in-person sessions in the afternoon. So anyway, I do my sessions with my clients, and then that I usually have a bigger break than most people in the middle so that I can perform self-care or debriefing or anything I need to kind of reset myself back to the tabby that needs to be able to handle the next case, you know, because I tend to take cases that are very heavy. Like I have multiple cult victims who've experienced extreme, extreme disturbing stuff in their lives. And so that's that's one example. And so when we work through it, in order for me to be effective, I have to kind of definitely empathize with my clients and use my sense of empathy as a tool to help them, right? And so once we're done, I have to reset myself. So whether that's meditating or listening to calming music or reading a book that's exciting to me or whatever I do, get myself back into a place where I can go to the next client. And then so that's I usually have at least at least 30 minutes between clients. The standard amount between clients is 10 minutes, and that's like to take notes, you know, get your happy face back on and then go to the next client. But I tend to do like every other hour. I almost never schedule myself back to back anyway. So then I get through that, I drive in to do in-person sessions, and those are a little different because in the video, I only have to be prepared from here up. And if I'm distressed and you know, I'm odd, I am on the autism spectrum, so I can use little fidget toys and stuff like that here at home. But but in the office, I can't necessarily do that because I'll look like a weirdo, and I just don't want to basically like if I'm using a fidget tool in the office, it will distract the patient, the clients from being able to focus on themselves. So I then have to channel all my strength to not be fidgety during that period of time, and that's a that's challenging. So then also the therapist, if you're feeling fidgety, you still have to focus and be like 100% in with the client. So that is an extra fun thing to do. So at the end of that session, I'm usually extremely exhausted, and then I I take the time I need to write notes and I go home. So there's not really any glamorous stuff with regards to my therapy work, but with the psychology work that I do do is a lot of research, a lot of studying, some professional interviews. I get that done as a psycho as a forensic psychologist. I am working on being able to do assessments, forensic assessments for people and things like that. So it's a lot of skill building for me right now and feedback on this on the res the reports and stuff like that. So there's just very different hats that I wear. So like I have some days where I'm all therapists, some days where it's very mixed. Today it's mostly forensic tabby. Yeah, forensic tabby. I'll wear a fedora if I can.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

That would be awesome, honestly.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

Yeah, I would like that. So we have therapist tabby. No, I'm just like no, I'm just kidding. But anyway, so yeah, I wear multiple hats. Because with Freedom Train, I'm the executive director and an advocate, which is totally different than a psychologist. So yeah, I just I do I have three different professional hats to wear.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

Well, they're all very nice professional hats.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Yes, thank you. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

But you should wear your fedora too for all of them at once.

SPEAKER_00 16:35

I have a fedora but has skulls on it. It's in the garage. I'm not gonna go get it right now.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Yeah, that's okay. But that's pretty cool. You can have one with skulls on it. It wasn't the same thing. Well, right here. I keep my fidget toy with me. I know it's a stuffy, I like soft, so I have to have some fidget toys. I can't do hard.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

I like stones. I usually have some sort of a stone, like there's this right here that I just like rub or whatever. I use it when I'm in like difficult conversations with people, not like a rosary bead, but I kind of rub it like that, just all up and down, and it really helps me from being able to like I listen better. It's so weird.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

I get though, that's kind of similar. I do this when I'm at my day job. I do this. That's my nonchalant way of doing it. But other than that, I have these, which I have like four other ones. I go based off shapes, but this is my favorite because it's my favorite Pokemon, so I go off of him more, and then I have squishies that I just destroyed one of that I don't want to destroy, so I use them sparingly because yeah, I remember when it when the concepts of fidgets just came out, there everyone thought they were stupid and silly and that they weren't working.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

And I've seen the contrary with my sons. Both my sons also have ADHD in autism, and so I've actually seen we have like every type of fidget toy you can have at my house, you know. But I've actually seen it like take them from like 60 to zero, like very fast. So I am very pro fidget toys. I don't use the standard fidget toys because they're they feel weird. I don't like the texture of the squishy stuff, you know. We have this like Linky Box collection out there, which is one of my son's favorite. I know we're off topic, but no, technically, this is good. Yeah, they have a whole bunch of different types of squishies with Linky Box and those poppet things or whatever. There's a whole bunch of fidgety type toys from there. And in like the like right outside my office door is this shelf that's just like the display of Linky Box, you know. And so like I'd have any any number of fidget things at my disposal. But I like this type of thing because it's got different textures, and it's pretty too. It's very pretty, and these little rocks, I'll probably break it at some point accidentally. Probably.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

Yeah, but I break things on accident.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Yeah, but I can like rub them and and they move a little bit, and then the beads I rub or twist or whatever. I'm pretty sure it's gonna break syringes.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Yeah, one of my first tests after being diagnosed, um, I had a Pikachu squishy, and I broke both of its ears because I like I rub it so much, yeah. Yeah, that it just won't. And I have another one, but I haven't touched it because I don't want to destroy it. The whole point of it is I like the shape and that it's soft. Thankfully, with these, I can't do anything besides pet and not break it. So I like these and they're technically just known as stuff animals, but they're great. Same as squishies. I have some squishies that I also squish.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Yeah, it's it's it's good to have something, especially if it's something that you can, you know, move bring around that you know people don't harass you too much about.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

Yeah, people can suck, but thankfully, at least my work day job is all about inclusion, and they've really been proving with their new hires how very much they are inclusive. I have more people like me that I'm working with, and I've never had that in my entire life before.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

So that's great. What do you do?

SPEAKER_01 20:02

I work with disabled children or kids with special needs, however they choose to see themselves, um, that are cognitively high up there, like doesn't they don't cognitively meet the level of, I guess, a normal person. I don't know how to describe it correctly or word it correctly, but they cognitively need help in certain areas, like socializing. We do behavior services and we add that to their plan, but they ultimately write their own plan. So the first day before coming in or even taking part in services, it's an after school program. They get to say what that they want to work on if they want to connect with friends, if they want to work on something else. Their parents can also say something within it that also gets written in there, and then things over time we help with adding to it.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

But is this like a is this like applied behavior analysis that work or no?

SPEAKER_01 20:56

It's just the meeting goals after school for kids that want to connect even at school with others, and yeah, they make actual friends too in the after school program, too. They yeah, it's fun, even those that like have some dangerous fidgeting habits, teaching them safe fidgeting ways, or because we have a bunch of spectrum kids, we also have multiple different things too. People for some reason think our after program after school program is only autism, it's not, it's multiple of anything and everything you can name Down syndrome.

unknown 21:30

I can't think of it all.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

There's a lot. Yeah, well, it that's great. Is it state sponsored? It is a nonprofit. It's well, imagine Colorado. They know I talk about them, so that's yeah, they've already done it publicly enough. And I have a friend there who's in a bigger position, but she's never had a problem. I've talked about her too. So they know.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Yeah, when I have clients that like struggle with self injury and stuff like that, this is like a a sort of a newly Adopted perspective is that ultimately there's a sensory need they're trying to fill in general. It could be sometimes an emotional need, but it's a need nonetheless, generally speaking. And so rather than trying to suppress the need and not get it filled, we like you said teach safe ways to get that same need fulfilled and or at least safer ways. Sometimes we have to kind of slowly transfer the the method from pretty unsafe to like okay, but if done and not in moderation, not okay, you know, to to like safe things. So for instance, if I have a client who would engage in self-indress and harmful behavior, I would help like, for instance, if they need to like scratch or cut themselves, right? I would help them go from like the most common thing is learning like a rubber band and snapping it, which I mean ultimately you don't want them hurting themselves, but that is one way to sort of immediately get rid of the potential for danger, right? And then at that point, I personally go to like after that, after you're used to that, now let's go to like getting an ice pack out of the fridge and just holding it for a while. And because to some degree it is that sort of pain sensory intake that they're looking for, and holding an ice pack for a few seconds is okay, but holding it for like a minute is gonna is gonna feel like give them that sensory need that they need. And then we just kind of reduce it from there. So and then eventually we get to you know a rock they can pet. So something like that. But but yeah, in psychology, in in my world, we we when we're trying to move people, it's never we never want to suppress that need because it that only gets worse and explosive at some point, you know. And we we want to just teach them positive, healthy ways to meet the need so that it never goes unmet.

SPEAKER_01 24:01

That's what we do in public spaces, at least, because the point of imagine, which was made by parents who originally started the nonprofit with their own children that they had because there was no program out there at the time. I don't know what, I think it's like 1960s. I don't know. I don't know the exact date, but that is when they chose to do that because there wasn't education out there in public for people that are not straight and white, and just to put it bluntly. So well, that's why we take them like to movies, we take them to the park, we go museums. So it's definitely a lot we have to do in the moment that you don't normally deal with, like in a classroom or in your setting. We deal with sometimes more extreme behaviors because of the environment we're in and what they're dealing with. And yeah, we also have psychologists that we work with too. We have psychologists, we have behaviorists, we have a whole team of different people, depending on the need of the child and the need of the parent, even too, even helping them. It's not that's what I love about that. So every need is met there, but it can't happen right away because it is a nonprofit and you have to go through all the proper channels of there and the government at the same time. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

Yeah, I've been my kids get applied behavior analysis. Well, just one of them right now, the other one is gonna restart. It's kind of wild how my kids that both severely uh no, I'm sorry, severely ADHD and different levels of they require different levels of support for autism. So one of my one of my sons, he doesn't require a whole lot of support for his autism. And so he but he is a high masker. So he at school, they almost could wouldn't be able to tell that there's any neurodivert diversity for him because he masks so much that by the end of the day, he just can't hold it in any longer. So there's behaviors and that gets engaged in by the end of the day. So I was thinking when I heard you say like you have to deal with behaviors, I was thinking it's it's possible that some of those are coming from having to mask in an environment where they don't feel safe unmasking. And then by the time by the end of it, you can only do that for so long, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:23

Especially well, I also have masking during after school, anyways. I don't bring fidgets or anything for myself, and I try to take care of it all before I head into work. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

And we've had we have, I mean, also we have years of experience on these little children, you know. So they like at by the end of the day, they're usually like spent. So parents often wonder, you know, if they don't their children don't have a diagnosis. They like, why is my kid great for you in school, but like terrible, terrible for me at home. And and like, well, that's a reason why, you know, like they've they probably have some neurodivergence occurring and there's no support available for them. And so by the time they get home, they just can't handle it anymore, you know. And so, anyway, so I'm a very big proponent on on providing continued support for neurodivergence and to to not, I want I don't want to say be tricked by the mask, but to like help children feel safe in all environments so they don't ever feel like they have to have a mask on, you know, and so they can be themselves and like a balloon let the air out slowly over time, you know, and then you will see a less terrible child at home, you know.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

So well, I also believe in advocating for adults too, because adults don't have as much help as children actually do with autism. I feel like an adult was once a child, and because I wasn't diagnosed as a child, I didn't get the proper help I needed. And then as an adult, the services are hard to just get to and reach out to, and eventually there's barely any adult. Exactly, because there's a whole thing of oh, they're an adult, who cares? And to me, I want to advocate also for adults. There is advocating for children, there is that there, but we need to keep both and keep an idea of adults are important too, not just children, that they're both very important.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

Yeah, and it's true because like uh what we do is we go, well, how does society generally respond to that? And then we copy it, you know, and we mirror it. So we're like, oh, oh, you're supposed to be sad right now. Okay, I'll be sad. Yeah, and then but but society doesn't always have it right. Sometimes societal responses to things is abnormal, and we shouldn't be copying abnormal responses, you know.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

Like if someone dies saying be strong, that's not something you say to someone after someone dies. That's wrong. I'm sorry, I don't care. There's certain things that I don't agree with, and I don't plan on changing my point of view just because I'm autistic to meet the needs of society.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

Or like, you know, you'll there's something you're supposed to learn from this and all that kind of weird stuff is like like what? Yeah, like like not everything has to be learning. Jeez, you know, but yeah, things like that. Like we I've often think of when I think about autism and adult responses, often think of Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory. Anytime someone came into his like space whenever they were upset, he he would always be like, There, there, you know, like he's like really trying hard to do the societal response. And he's like, Would you like some tea? You know, it's like a script that he had to play in order to like get through the the situation, you know. So yeah. That's true.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

I just know that we do a lot of autistic community do not like his portrayal of an autistic person just because there's already so much hate, and no thanks to a billionaire either, but so much hate towards autistic people because they say sociopath and so many other things, which there's living proof, for example, tabby psychology. My degree isn't psychology. There is such a thing as empathy just because it's not shown in the societal form or in the way they're looking for, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, and I and I'm sure I've heard also other arguments about big bang theory being a problem for many reasons that they're pretty sexist and misogynists.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

Well, yeah, there's a lot of those ones do.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

Yeah, there's a lot of issues going on there, but but it was a good example.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

I was just putting that just in case. Okay. I was gonna skip one because you already answered that of what does Freedom Train do? But what can a survivorslash victim of a cult do once they get out of a cult for resources?

SPEAKER_00 30:51

Yeah, I would say, let me see, let me try to find a good way. First of all, you can go to the Freedom Train website and which I'll leave links below. Yeah. And just just go to the contact form and kind of do an initial point of contact and we'll send an intake. And in that intake, we'll ask you kind of like what you feel you need. We go by based on what the victims or survivors feel they need. So we we go based on what the victim feels their needs are. Our first priority is safety always. So we make sure that they're safe one way or another. We've actually had victims or survivors decline our services because they didn't want to get out of their unsafe situation. And so the victims also have to be ready. And that's something that only they can decide, right? I don't do interventions, so I don't convince people that they need to go. That is something that other people who may might do, other teams, like I think like Patrick Ryan's team does interventions, but I don't engage in that. I just help once they're out. So, but I've had you know some referrals of people who engaged with us to get things to get, but they were in an unsafe situation, right? So we can give them referrals to therapists all we want, but even a therapist working with them.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

But it's up to the victim or survivor, and uh Patrick Ryan does the the interventions, right? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

Oh no, I was saying I I have had clients who've engaged with me in services or potential clients, and then you know, they've declined the services at the end of the day or the referrals because they weren't willing to get out of their unsafe situation. Like we've had a client who declined our services because they didn't want to have housing, and in part that was because they were doing a GoFundMe and in order to like get money, and they if they moved out of the house, if they moved into housing that we provided, they wouldn't feel they wouldn't be able to collect the money from GoFundMe, or at least they wouldn't feel like they could. And so, because the money was for housing, you know, and so like whatever their thinking is is what it is, but then they declined services because we have to make sure they're safe first and foremost, you know. And so there's intricacies that go on and stuff like that. And we give them, I always give at least therapeutic referrals to anybody who contacts me. So, like, in the very least, you can try and attempt therapy. But in that situation, if you're living in your car, a therapist even has to stop what they're doing and help you find housing, you know, some or shelter of some kind. So that is a high priority. You have to be willing and ready to not sleep in your car, you know, for example. I mean, at the end of the day, it's still up to them where they want to go, but we have to do our due diligence and provide all those referrals. So I guess to more directly answer your question is to kind of take a good inventory of what you're missing to be successful, right? So, how can I be most successful in this world? And for some people, like second generation people, they have no clue. They don't know what they need because all their needs have been met through the cults in the in some cases in a really, really messed up way, you know. And so they don't have any clue. So for those cases, if you're a second generation and you just don't really know where to go to, then you can reach out for support for sure, you know. Listen to a lot of podcasts of other second generations because they will tell you what they did, and that's helpful. But if you know, if you can take inventory of what you need, sometimes it's as simple as I need a job, you know, or I need to sort out all the thoughts in my head. You might not know that you need a therapist for that, but you know that the thoughts are too much, you know. You know that you have a draw to go back into the group of people, right? You know that you feel like even though you're leaving, you might feel a sense of guilt for leaving, you know. And so that is all good indicators that talking to someone would help try to sort that out. So that would be a therapist or a coach or whatever, you know. I I warn against coaching, but I I always do therapists or psychologists because they all have a standard set of education that's approved by a licensing board, and all of it is evidence-based and scientific and willing to change things if they find out later that it doesn't work, you know. So that's my recommendation. If you have any medical or health issues, then you need to try to get that sorted. And maybe you don't have insurance, you know, so or maybe you don't have a way to pay for it. So then you can go to your state offices or again con contact someone like us that can help guide you through that process, right? So getting getting onto insurance plans so that you can get your medical stuff taken care of. If you've been, you know, assaulted, then there's steps to take to be able to prove, not prove, but to be able to document that in order, like if you do want to, if if a victim does want to have a lawsuit or something like that, then that will be documented in the proper way, which is called a it's called a sane exam. And so you can go to a police department, find, ask if you can get a really called a rape kit, but you can get a sane kit done and then you can get support through that. Support groups are really big. So if there are support groups for whatever, there's support groups for everything. I don't necessarily recommend doing support groups that involve your particular group per se, unless the group was so big that you guys all kind of don't know each other very well. But if there's any potential for victim perpetrator to be in the same room as a victim, and even worse their victim, then that can create some tension that is not conducive to healing in that space, at least not at that point. But if you can go to a cult group where there are other people who've experienced the same type of harm that you've experienced, that's great because groups are amazing because they do help with that feeling. I'm not alone in this. I don't suggest that you mix groups, in other words, you don't recommend that cult groups go to say groups that are solely for like sexual assault who are people not in cults. And the reason for that is sometimes the difference in experiences that that the other group of people are talking about can be so jarring for you for the person that they may feel their story isn't relatable, and so they might suppress their story, and then that's not helpful when you start not talking. The whole point of the support group is to talk and to share your story, you know. So I do recommend kind of keeping it within the same type of trauma, coercion, and trying not to mix with people from their same cults. So yeah, those are some things that you can do pretty immediately on your own without having to get some help. If you're if you're unhoused, you can go to any shelter. If you're in a domestic violence situation, you can go to the police station and ask for escort to a shelter and or ask them to help you call a shelter and they can help you find a spot and shelter. So shelters are hidden by nature. So the police are one of the people that know where the shelters are, and so they do the escorting typically into shelters, at least in most places. So that's one thing. Most states have a non-discriminatory clause. So if you what no matter what gender you are and you experience domestic violence, they will find a place for you. So they they're not allowed to turn you away if it's a woman's shelter, for instance, and you are you identify as a male, you know. So there most states have a clause that like do no harm, right? So you they have to help you one way or another. So wouldn't get too caught up in at least not asking for help, you know. A good 50% of freedom train clients have been males and unhoused or males who would be unhoused if they left their organization. And so it is a big problem that exists. It's a big fear. Like if I leave, then I'm gonna have to go live into this, you know, shelter space and I'll have to share a room. We've had these thoughts. Like I have to share a room with someone, and and that's scary because I don't know who they are, you know. So sometimes these things are scary, and I and you know, it's good to admit that, but it's good to like, I think it's good to understand that and to have compassion for yourself, you know, because it's scary. It is scary to go into a space where you may potentially have to share a space. I will say most domestic violence shelters, they're not like homeless shelters, they just don't advertise it, but they're like little miniature apartments, like little studio apartments, and you rarely have to share a space with a stranger in that case. So, but most people imagine that they're like homeless shelters that they see where it's like a big giant room filled with beds, you know, and then that that feels very terrifying for them, you know, and that's not the case. So there's a lot of things we could do, but those are some examples.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

Those are good examples. I like those examples. Here's an important one, even though you've pretty much already proven this is freedom train freedom train inclusive. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

So freedom train, we we do collect demographics in our intake form, and that is only so that when we ask for grant funding, we can prove that we're inclusive. Because in California, if you want grant funding, you have to be inclusive. It's not an option, right? So I don't know what the rest of the world looks like with California have to be. So not only do you have to be able to service any and all individuals who need your support, but your your board and your staff have to also demonstrate inclusivity. So, you know, with the new like weird DI hate that's going on, I don't even care. I mean, I care, but yeah, there's no purpose to that because all people deserve dignity and respect and and attention and care, and all people, no matter what their circumstances are like, right? So, or no matter who it doesn't matter what they identify as, it doesn't matter what their neurodivergence or diagnoses or undiagnoses or any of that. The question is, are you safe? Are you okay? Do you do you have your needs met? And that's what's the most important part. And so, yes, our board, fairly diverse board. I'd like to increase our board actually. So I'm working on that. But we have, you know, African-American, LGBT, we have neurodivergence, obviously. I'm part of that group. I would say, yeah, we represent all a lot of that group. I would like to see more, some more diversion. It's a small board, you know, so you only can go so far. But I would like we, I mean, we have some people representing multiple, the diverse of populations, you know, but diverse populations, but I'd like to see more. I'd like to grow my board, the board to like a a good like nine people, you know, from it's like I think it's like five to seven right now. I'd like to grow it to be bigger. But yeah, we definitely need there's always room for more because I can't always know what the population is, what they're I mean, I can study, but it I can't like quickly know and understand the culture of a population if I don't have people to to be able to drive that. Like, you know, if I have a you know, one of our board members is an African, is Afro-European, but they grew up in in like Hollywood. And so if I'm making mistakes that I mean, if I'm if I'm interacting with someone who's African American from like an urban area, I would want to make sure that I'm doing that in the most culturally sensitive way, for instance. And that's something I can you know call upon my my board member to be able to verify and validate, you know, and that's helpful to be able to do. That's good. So the answer is yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

That's gonna be the answer, yes. Which yes, I hope there's more inclusion places too. I know my publishing company is inclusive that I've been working on getting up and fully running, but I had first get editors and a whole team of people, which I can't afford yet. So I will eventually get there. I know I will.

SPEAKER_00 43:20

Yeah, that's good. We always it's just small steps, is where you get somewhere. No steps is where you get nowhere. So exactly.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

Well, I am registered in the state I'm in. I am registered. So I am an actual publishing company. It's just the moving parts. Like my website just got recently somewhat way updated. I still have more updating to do, but well, I'm not doing it. I'm not website savvy. The person who is has been, but that's literally the only other person so far part of everything.

SPEAKER_00 43:51

Um I am website savvy and I still can barely do my own website. So yeah, it's it's good. I can't it's like editing your own paper. It's just you miss it all, you know. Know you're like, I'm like, what do I put on the about us page? I have no idea. And then it's this really boring page, you know. But like if I were doing someone else's website, I'd be all like, yeah, let's make it look this way. It looks like a magazine and it's beautiful, and like we can make this, you know, interaction with this thing sliding in and stuff like that. And mine I'm just like text. Yeah. But I can relate because we need funds to be able to do that. And that's we're we we run on a kind of like talk data, right? So yeah, we freedom train runs on a very low budget. So all of my work is voluntary. Everything I do for the Freedom Train project is completely voluntary. Of course, I would like that to change one day, but I'm not gonna rely on donors for that at all. When the government decides that we meet the qualifications to get grants, which I'm applying for today, one of them today, actually, then I I will, you know, take a salary at that point. But up until then I'll I'll be I'm still voluntary, you know. But that means that we have zero budget for anything, you know, when when we need anything done that costs money, we have to raise the funds for it, or it comes out of my pocket, which is probably more typical than anything else.

SPEAKER_01 45:12

Yeah. With me, I don't get paid for anything I do on and outside of, I guess, my day job. Because even my books aren't that big, but my publishing company, I do want to make inclusive.

SPEAKER_00 45:26

I have a website, or I don't know if it's still registered, it was, but called Essence Expressions. And I it was born out of my Nexium days. But my my business in Nexium, my web development business used to be called Essence Interactive. So that came from my work with Allison. She had a little activity she did with her fans called Mac events, which I named. And and these were just like art prompts. That's all they were. And they would just be random. She would not have any rhyme or reason for them. She would just be like, It's fall, yay, take a picture of yourself with a leaf. And then people would submit all these pictures with leaves, and they were very artistic, you know, very cool looking. Let's play with your food. So take a picture of playing with your food. And then people were just doing phenomenal stuff with their food, it was amazing. And so when she she just decided to stop doing them one day, and I was like, Can I just buy them from you? You know, and so I I like worked for free in exchange for this product and then created Essence Expressions, and it never really went anywhere, but it was a cool idea. So the idea was that I would charge like a very low membership fee, like five bucks or something, and that membership fee would be collected into scholarships for like people who were submitting their art to be able to go through a review panel, and then the people whose art was scored the highest would be able to get scholarships. So I never really came into fruition, but it was a dream of mine to do because I thought it was a cool idea.

SPEAKER_01 46:58

I like that though, it's a very good dream out that it was art of all forms.

SPEAKER_00 47:03

They could submit videos, yeah. They uh videos, photographs, drawings, it didn't matter, and that was staying true to the original Mac events as well. I mean, she would say like take a picture of the leaf, but it anyone can submit anything, you know, they could submit drawing or whatever. So it's pretty cool. Those are the days. I don't I don't have time for that anymore.

SPEAKER_01 47:21

Well, yeah, you have kids.

SPEAKER_00 47:23

Yeah, kids and your businesses too. Yeah, let's see. What does the freedom train do for expult members of poll?

SPEAKER_01 47:31

Wait, and then we're gonna make it to the very last question. Are you ready?

SPEAKER_00 47:34

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:35

Okay, where can everyone find you? Even though we did a small piece of that. Now you get to actually tell them to.

SPEAKER_00 47:41

Yeah, so where you can find the freedom train is on the freedom train project.org. And I we also do have a social media presence, and so we I think we have well, you'll have to put it like in the chat. Yeah, it will all be down there. But we have Instagram, we have threads. I took us off of X because right when Elon Musk took over X. My feed was really disgusting things, and there was no way I could control it. It was people being beheaded, it was just really horrible a long time ago. Yeah, it was this was a while ago. But it was really horrible things that could cause trauma just by and there was no choice. It opened it up and it would be that. And so I felt like that was a weird, must have been a weird psychological experiment that they were doing or something, or and so I took all of my accounts off of X at the time. My Tabby Marie account has since turned back on, but I try my hardest not to go over there. Um so we're on Threads, Meta, we're on LinkedIn and Facebook. I I have a personal blue sky account, I don't really use it too much, but I probably will increase that use a little bit. But yeah, so we're pretty much everywhere you can go. And we actually do customer service, limited customer service through any of those apps, through direct message and private messages. So, but typically we will redirect people to our website because our website is HIPAA compliant and our forms are HIPAA compliant, whereas we can't guarantee HIPAA compliance through meta messaging and WhatsApp or threads or anything like that. So we we tend to try to get that. Plus, we can collect the demographic information, which is helpful for you know finance financing. So donors and and grants and stuff like that. So they care. They really it's despite the world being so anti-DEI at this stage, the people who give you money actually care. So that's just the important point to know. They actually care that you are servicing a large amount of diverse people.

SPEAKER_01 49:51

That's especially good to know right now. Yeah. And now I'm gonna do the outro. Oh, thanks so much for being here, Tabby. And if you like the content, please like, subscribe, share with friends, share with enemies, share with anyone. Thanks so much for being here. Embrace your truth, tell your story till next item on a Saturday morning. Thanks so much for being here, everyone. I hope you enjoyed this episode with many more to come. If you'd like to help support and grow the podcast and even the YouTube channel, please not only follow, like, subscribe, but please leave a review on Spotify, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, or anywhere you listen to this podcast. Thanks so much for being here. Until next week, on Wednesday at 7 a.m. Mountain Standard Time. Catch you later.