I Was Raised in a Cult & Expelled for Being Gay | Andrew's Story

What happens when the world you grew up in turns against you for simply being yourself? This week, Jessi sits down with Andrew — a cult survivor who found his voice the hard way. A raw, eye-opening conversation you won't want to miss.

Views expressed in this each individuals own views and experience and not meant to harm any group or entity.

You can find Andrew on his podcast: podcasts - Andrew Pledger

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Listening to voices, stories can be strange. It's good to open up to new stories and finding backstories of how people came to be, only to free the mind of what blinds us with only a glance gives us a chance to see people be who they truly are, from silent voices to shining light. Stories that inspire awareness and change. I welcome you to Jesse's Stories, unheard voices. This is an inclusive space. So if you're part of LGBTQIA plus or autistic or ADHD, so disabled or queer community, this is a safe space where I know there's spots on the internet that are not right now. So if you're here, thanks so much for being here. Everyone is welcome. Please like, subscribe, and leave a comment down below to help the algorithm. And today I am happy to have on Andrew. If you would introduce yourself and tell everyone what you do.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Hi, Jesse. Thank you. Just want to first say thank you so much for having me on the podcast. I've been looking forward to this. But yeah, for people who do not know me, yes, I am a cult survivor, podcaster, and digital creator. And I was raised in a religious cult known as the Independent Fundamental Baptist movement. And I was homeschooled in that my entire life with the intent of being in that environment the rest of my life. And growing up believing I was in this special chosen group that had all the answers, and everyone in the outside world in the outside world was evil and lost. And as I got older, just I felt I just I always felt different growing up and eventually realized that I was gay and that was just an abomination in that environment. And so I was told, well, one of the things I was taught was you will never be unhappy if you follow our teachings or follow our way. You will get the results that we are telling you you're gonna get. And if you don't, that is your fault. So I didn't see the results of their teachings or of their environment. And I began just a slow journey of questioning, and that began with my sexuality and struggles with mental health issues, and then learning about religious trauma. And there is this extreme conflict of when I began questioning that the fear of like what is gonna happen to me? Am I going down this destructive path and a path to hell where I'll never truly be safe? So there was so much indoctrinated fear of questioning, of leaving. And so I ended up at a cult college named Bob Jones University, kind of as a way to get out, and we can dig into that later. But I continued the question and eventually I was expelled or really excommunicated from that environment for speaking out about my experiences, being gay and just a trauma. And since then I've just been very vocal about the impact of just cultic control, being gay in that kind of environment and giving a voice to other survivors. The first podcast I did about Bob Jones is called Surviving Bob Jones University, and that's a limited series that is out right now. And I continue telling people stories from that school and its affiliated ministries in my current podcast called Beyond BJU. And yeah, I mean, I've just been healing and processing out loud for the past several years. It's a different way to do it. Like, I when I was excommunicated, I went out running and yelling and like like I didn't I look back on it and I was like, wow, like I was I never had a voice growing up. And so to be able to use my voice and share what I thought and felt and what I experienced was just so empowering and freeing for me. And so I wanted to do that for other people, and that's why I got into the podcasting world because language is so powerful, and when we can find language that describes what we experienced, we can really find tools and things to set us on a path of recovery and know that we're not alone.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

Yeah, that is so true, and very powerful too, Mike, especially when you do come out because you're relearning how to exist in the world. Yes, at least from my own experience, you're relearning what actually is, I guess, right versus wrong versus it's okay, this gray area. It doesn't have to be so black and white, but yeah, you really are pretty much like a toddler again, relearning how to walk. And it's sometimes not steady, sometimes each step takes a little while. I like the way you've said that. That's very true. I know it's me just talking to others, period, whether it's cult experience or just queer, or both, or just one or the other, or disabled, just hearing every single person's perspective and experience helps me personally at least understand myself better, understand my own experiences within the cults before entering the cult and helps me honestly write my memoir too.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

But yeah, yeah, no, yeah, I agree 100%. And yeah, I mean, it's it's empowering because you're creating community through sharing these stories, and people know that oh, I'm not alone. And it is such a lonely experience to come out of that environment, feeling so behind, like you were saying, just on so many things having to grow. And like there are times I'm so hard on myself, and I'm like, why can't I just be like this or do this yet? But just kind of learn to give myself grace as I'm yeah, on this journey. Oh true.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

That's very important. And then can you explain what independent fundamental baptist IB well IFB movement stands for and what it is, its function?

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Yes, yes, yes. So, yeah, the independent fundamental baptist movement, and I'll refer to it going forward as IFB because it is just a mouthful to say so long. But yeah, so the independent fundamental Baptist movement. Yeah, so it's interesting because there's two people kind of involved with it. The first person, Jay Frank Norris, he kind of started it a little like he's not people have people give him some credit because they just don't want to ignore him, but he didn't he wasn't successful with starting the movement. So he started independent Baptist churches in the 1930s, and they didn't really take off until the 1950s with Jack Hiles. But Jack Hiles, he is the one that everyone attributes. I'll just say he's the one that made the independent fundamental baptist movement popular, and he made it just blow up and expand. But to understand the IFB, I think it's important to understand really just fundamentalism in general. So in the 1920s, there was just a major reaction in Christianity to modernism, to evolution, to just things being taught in public schools. And so there were different Christians that saw this as a threat to their religion. So they were like, no, like you're attacking the fundamentals of Christianity, like a literal interpretation of the Bible, you're attacking the creation story, which they saw as the truth, and oh, you're introducing ideas outside of our belief system. So we are just harping down on our beliefs, and we're also just gonna create our own schools. And it's important to note, too, that racism is also a big part of fundamentalism starting. So in the 1920s, Bob Jones Sr., which we'll get into Bob Jones University later, he created this doctrine of separation. And there is a book coming out soon called Clandimentalism by Dr. Camille Lewis, who is just is a big part of the surviving BJU podcast happening because of just all the research and documentation that she's done. But yeah, so there's a doctrine of separation, but I always think in my mind, doctrine of segregation. And it was just about this worry also about the races intermixing. So let's separate from these other races, other people create our own insular worlds and indoctrinate future generations into our ideals. And so, with that kind of as just a light right now, like that's already there a lot to unpack, but with that kind of as a base level of understanding, so again, there's that fear of difference, fear of the outside world, fear of anything outside of our belief system. And so with the independent fundamental Baptist movement, it was a reaction to what these different people, men, and like pastors saw as people straying away from the truth, even in Baptist denominations. So the IFB is not really a denomination. People call it a movement, some people call it a sect. I call it a cult because of the control and manipulation and coercion, and a lot of the survivors call it a cult too. But so it started in the 1950s or became popular in the 1950s with Jack Hiles. And so it's just so interesting how in these groups it's like, no, you're not doing it good enough, you're not doing it right. So we're breaking away from you and creating creating our own thing. And so with the independent part, there is no authority or board or denomination board holding them accountable. They can do whatever they want. There's no checks and balances, and I think that's one of the dangerous things about the movement. An interesting thing about the independent part is yes, I see that as they are independent from accountability or oversight. But these churches, in the beginning, before I learned more about it, I thought that each church was more islanded to itself. But as I've learned more and more, that's not true. All these different IFB churches, like they're a whole network. I've heard Eric Skorzinski, who hosts the Preacher Boys podcast about the movement, just talking about how it's this big voice network and how they all help each other out. And so just kind of well, I guess what makes it different, I guess, from other denominations too, is they claim that the King James version of the Bible is the only legitimate word of God, and all other versions of the Bible are false, are tainted by Satan. So they claim this access to an exclusive truth through this version of the Bible. Sorry, I'm gonna quickly just pause for a second, look at my notes so I don't go way off track because I know there's so much I could talk about it, and there's a lot, so I'm just gonna look. So, yeah, so they started as a reaction to modernism and they sought to create an environment based on their fundamentalist beliefs and isolating themselves from broader society and establishing their own churches, schools, and literature. So when you get involved in the movement, it's not just a part of your life, it becomes your entire life. And so they create this very insular environment where you're at this church cult that's with your friends are there, your family is there. A lot of IFB churches even have Christian schools. So within the movement, parents put their kids in either a Christian school that is IFB, or you homeschool your kids. And anything else is just giving your child over to Satan. So go, there is so much fear of going outside of anything that they did and fear of the outside world and influence. And with the IFB, they took the separation part to another level with separating from all other Christians who believe differently from them. Like they really believe that they're the only ones that are right and everyone else is wrong. So, yeah, so that separation from other Christians is called secondary separation. And a big part of the movement growing is called soul winning. Yes, I know soul win, yeah, soul winning, winning souls for Christ. It is their form of evangelism. So the IFB is so big on numbers. So the IFB church cult I grew up in, there were boards on each side of the auditorium where it had the numbers of each bus that would come in. So a bus ministry, the bus ministry is greatly associated with the IFB of sending buses out into the area and bringing people in. So it was all about keeping up like, oh, how many numbers can we get? How many people can we get saved? And so with the IFB, I do have a list, let me find it, of I so I was asking AI, I'm like, what is the difference between the IFB and other mainstream denominations? So the first I talked about was church autonomy, so they're independent from a board, whereas mainstreams have a denomination. The IFB has a very strict literal interpretation and they reject modern theological interpretations where mainstream Baptists might allow for historical and contextual interpretations. The IFB is exclusively King James, and other denominations are open to that. And the IFB is all about separation from even other Christian denominations, so don't associate with Catholics or charismatics or any other kind of people, anyone that strays away from the IFB. Whereas mainstream Baptists may engage in interfaith dialogue. The IFB is very legalistic. They often enforce very rigid moral codes, stress standards, control around entertainment, and then very controlling around gender roles, whereas more mainstream Baptists may allow for personal conviction over rules. So yeah, IFB is all about door-to-door evangelism, revival meetings, and very like fire and brimstone, fear-based teachings, where mainstream Baptists they also value evangelism, but they might not be as much focused on that. And it's interesting because what Baptists talk are known for is about grace through faith alone. So, for example, you're saved and going to heaven through believing in Jesus Christ and that only alone could save you. And so a lot of people, and that's called eternal security. That's another doctrine. Once you're saved, you're always saved. But the IFB is very deceptive about that. It's through grace, if they were really honest about what they teach, they would say through grace, through faith alone, as long as you believe and act and follow our rules exactly as we do. There's this assumption that if you're truly saved, you will be just like us and believe just like us, because we are right and everyone else is wrong. And so very legalistic, very deceiving about that. And a lot. But yeah, so they create this very insular world and it's all about getting the family in. So very family-based kind of environment. So homeschooling is known throughout the movement. There's all kinds of homeschool curriculums. I grew up on a Becca, Bob Jones had their own curriculum. And but yeah, I'm gonna stop there just for a second. I don't know if you have questions or anything else you wanted to ask about. It's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

Well, first I wanted to do kind of a comparison, especially with the exclusiveness. At least that seems to be a trend in every cult. At least Twin Flames universe, they definitely were exclusive to certain invites of certain people. At least that they do combined a bunch of religions into one. That's what they do. They do Buddhist, Christianity, Catholic. What else is in there? They got from all over the place. Like even some of their mantras that they do in the Church of Union, in my personal opinion, they just take directly from if you were to go to like a Buddhist church or because I have gone to a Buddhist church like twice. But yeah, I think that's interesting that each cult, in my personal opinion, chooses the way they, I guess, exclusively want to take things, just like for Twin Flames Universe. Yes, there are queer people in there, but there's not as many. There's more straight white females, at least when I was there. I can only speak from when I was there. And there's less, there's just less diversity. Like you have one person that's not white at most every so often. Maybe you'll get a couple more from India. A lot of the people that are in India, at least at Twin Flames Universe, are working really hard and you rarely see them. If you do, they're like assistants or kind of in your role. Some of them are. I know there's like four or five that are actual coaches currently, but that's because of years of being assistants and working for free. Oh in my personal experience of seeing it happen. But I just wanted to do a little comparison of that. And you did a really good job explaining that too. You did a little bit of the beliefs. Oh, what were things you were taught being homeschooled with?

SPEAKER_01 17:26

I mean, do you do you mind if we dig into the beliefs more? Because I could dig some into that if you're fine with that. Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

What are their beliefs and practices?

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Yeah. So, but yeah, so for people who the IFB is very similar to the Institute of Basic Life Principles for people who have seen the Shiny Happy People documentary and are familiar with the Duggars. And it's interesting because it's not talked about as much, but the Duggers are involved with I IBLP, but they're all they also grew up independent fundamental Baptists, also, which not people don't talk about as much. But yeah, they have very strict rules. I think I want to emphasize what I didn't emphasize before is strict rules around like gender roles. Everyone has a specific role that is designed by God. And if you do not follow out that role, danger is going to happen. And in the IFB, the Christian nationalism is also all throughout it. So believing that the US is a nation chosen by God and meant to have those beliefs in the government. And so in the IFB, it was always talked about how the world was just growing more and more evil and would grow more and more hostile towards us and because we told the truth and that's why they hated us. And so the only way to really save our country from destruction was to, which is awful that it's that has actually happened now, has actually happened, is to get a president that would enforce these religious right conservative values. And that in and working to they've been working towards it for decades. And many, many survivors, me and so many others, have tried to be warning people, like talking about our own experiences, the impact, and what they want to do and what that life really looks like by showing them like this is what it looks like in their world, in their insular environment, and they want to take this to the big level. And yeah, so they Christian nationalism is been something they've always been trying to get involved with politics, and and really it's it's always been about power, wanting to have power. And it's it's it is really terrifying to see how the religious right has finally gotten what they wanted. And thankfully it is, even though it's been not gonna lie, it's been horrible the last few months, seeing the growing up in that, leaving that, hearing them talk about it and then seeing it unfold. But it's also been good to see the people that are coming together, I think, too, that are speaking out about it still. And I think some things I can still kind of maybe stop him from certain things, but it's still so so scary to see.

SPEAKER_02 20:05

Well, the immunity, they just they have the power to do it, they need to take away the immunity, and that's all it takes. And I agree with everyone who is fighting and has been fighting, I do it in my own way through social media, but yeah, they literally have the power, they're just not using it. There's a difference, including the other side. That's why I don't say I'm an independent in general when it comes to politics. I'm openly just gonna say that I'm independent. I don't go based off of anything except I would say honesty for someone who is in that position. I go based off of and vibes. Vibe check is pretty important.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

So that that is no, I get that. I vibe check people a lot. Yeah. Don't always pass, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

Yeah. The current admin, because I don't want to name names. Yeah, at least with them, none of them checked out, and they all were huge red flags from the very beginning, even running and even having dealt being double in a cult, I guess, when I was in a cult in 2020. And through that time period, which most of it is blank with when that person was in office, but now it's all coming back to me because I guess some things are on repeat and aren't new that are happening right now, and some things are new, and then they also have fun saying we're in a crisis when we're not, yeah. So both sides are honestly bringing fear. There isn't one side that's new.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

Instead of logic of hey, so this is happening. And I keep telling everyone around me you have to pay attention to the little ones no matter what, because justice takes sadly time and they are building something that we don't know about. And that takes time. How long, who knows, but it takes time.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

Goodness. Yeah.

unknown 21:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:52

That's that brought up and also the whole male, female whole gender roles. When Flames Universe does exactly the same thing. On gender roles. So you have divine feminine, divide masculine. And yes, it's true, all twin flames places do it. That is true. But they also force it. So there is a difference that's you're exploring, in my personal opinion, too. Oh, you're still not accepting this. Like for me, I got the whispering behind, well, in settings like this of, well, he's not ready for this. No, I am she. Thank you. Get my pronouns correct. So I definitely know how it feels to be in someone who is trans footprint well footsteps because of that experience of getting misgendered and being forced to stay misgendered and forced to be something you're not. But anyway.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Yeah, that's no, I'm sorry you went through that. That's hard.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

It was a good experience to learn from and to see the red flags. But a lot of those that are still in there. I hope they see those red flags because they're they're they're much bigger now than they were at that.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Yeah, and like it it is hard going back like when you get out to see other people that are still in there and like you want to help them live a better life. And it can be so it's it can be so hard to watch, kind of like those mixed feelings, I think, especially for me. Like as I left, it was like, oh, all those people that are still in that environment, but still like, oh, I need to save myself from this. Just yeah, it's it's it's it's a hard journey.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

It is. I hope that someday, at least, since we do have a lot of at least females right now doing a lot of research in coercion, gaslighting. So we have Dr. C, well, Dr. Christina. I don't know how to pronounce her last name, but she's awesome. She's doing course of control, but it's with adults and children, and she also works within the court system. So if anyone needs an expert, she teaches experts, so she'll probably put you in the right direction. And then Dr. Robin Stern, gaslighting. Then we have Dr. Lawlich, cult. We do have a lot of researchers out there actually researching. Dr. Robin Stern, I know, is more emotional intelligence. And like I said, for Dr. C, she's more of courts, adults, and children, but it's still coercion and still applies. She still does studies within the cult like setting. So she makes a good expert for anyone who's in a cult, out of a cult, and wants to take them to court. She's also good to have for expert-wise. Just saying.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

Yeah, no, no, no, yeah, dude. Yeah, it is great to have these people coming out and tell. Yeah, yeah, I was looking at your channel. I need to see the interview with Dr. C. I'm excited for that.

SPEAKER_02 24:34

That actually posted today.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Oh, okay. Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 24:37

Yeah, I highly recommend watching it and sharing it with friends because she's a good one to get more out there. She's the first person I've learned that's doing actual studies and real life research on coercive control and has been doing it for a long time. She's she's cool. I really like her and connect with her quickly. But yeah, okay. And she's she's straight too, and a straight, well, a queer L. She talked about someone else who was on her podcast, which is something prey. Yes, we got it. Perfect pray. But yeah, I highly recommend that one too. She's just really, really smart, so she does say a lot of big words. For me personally, at least my autism, I don't know all big words. So when people say big words, like Amanda Montel did that on this too. I don't know all big words. I might look like someone who does, but I don't. But okay, that just made me really excited. All right. Our next one is oh, what things were you taught being homeschooled in IFB?

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Yeah, so I was homeschooled K through 12, used through through a curriculum called A Becca, and it is produced at a Pensacola Christian College, which is a very known IFB college in the movement. And the founders of the college actually graduated from Bob Jones University. And anyways, we'll we'll get to more Bob Jones at the end. It's just this again, just showing all the connections between these different groups and how they're interconnected and influencing. But but yeah, so the homeschooling was just another level of indoctrinations of IFB teachings. So with the IFB, they're all about preserving the past. They really love this 1950s wife staying home, cooking, cleaning, submitting to her husband, the dad working for the children, playing their own boys being masculine, girls being feminine, how the how they define that. And just trying to because they talk a lot in the movement about the family unit, and they have the right way. So you just follow these gender roles. So wait, sorry, I lost my train of thought. So yeah, so that so there's one way to be, you follow these roles, and so then that is influence for all the curriculum across all the board. And so with a Becca, they teach that evolution is false. It is scientific, they teach it as scientifically like incorrect. And like they they will bring up maybe things in science, but they'll think they debunk it, or they say, Oh, basically anything that goes outside their literal interpretation of the Bible is just not true, is definitely like very, very biased and tries to instill very conservative values. And like my thing is like it's fine learning that well, the thing with indoctrination is that you're not given the other viewpoint, you're taught what there's one way, and so I think it's fine to teach some differing viewpoints, but that was just not that did not happen for me growing up. It was like these are the answers, this is the way to be. Anything outside of this is of Satan and of Satan and will destroy our country. So there is this kind of this impending doom that was happening that if we did not get on this track or instill these values, the the country would fall apart again. And so I'm trying to the Bible is infiltrated throughout all of the subjects. So I did learn regular subjects like math, spelling, English, science, humanities, all these different things, but it's from that IFB lens and really being trained to have an answer for everything, any countering viewpoint, anyone else who believed differently. And growing up, looking back, like anyone or anything that went against what we believed, it was like my mind or my thoughts would just kind of just shut down, just like retreat, pull away. And so, yeah, so Bible memorization was a big part of it. As I got older, like learning more theological things. I remember at 17 years old, one semester doing an eve book on just learning for a semester about the book of Revelation, learning about signs at the end times and the different seals and revelation. And yeah, so that kind of scary stuff too, in that. But yeah, so just a continuation of IFB teachings and the world and their values, but just infiltrated in whatever way they could throughout, even just even in math, they would have Bible verses and things throughout the textbooks, just any way they could fit it in. I'm sorry, I can't. Oh, sorry, your sound cut out for a second.

SPEAKER_02 30:00

The whole Bible memorizing doesn't sound fun to me personally. That sounds really boring.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

Yeah, that's not fun, no.

SPEAKER_02 30:08

But yeah. And then when did you realize your queer identity?

SPEAKER_01 30:13

Yeah, so as I got older, like I always felt different, and I tried so hard to fit into the role or the way of being that they wanted, and I felt felt like, oh, what's wrong with me? What's wrong with me? And kept trying so hard. And it was around like 16 years old that I had noticed some kind of feelings and attractions for the same gender, and it was actually at the group's yearly youth conference, they would do, and for people who don't know what that is, so in the movement, they're known for different conferences, and youth conferences is one of them. Different IFB churches will travel to an IFB church that is hosting a youth conference, and it's usually like a week-long, maybe the best way to describe it is like a youth revival almost. And you are there, and yeah, it's usually yeah, it was a week long, and there's usually like three services a day, and it's very teen focused. So in the movement, purity wasn't thing that was emphasized so much, especially sexual purity, so saving sex for marriage and not like LGBTQ plus people just an abomination. Like you were just a horrible, awful person. Like there were so many like teachings about gay people deserving to die of AIDS, and the they they love to talk about the Sodom and Gomorrah story a lot, which they take out of context, but that's a whole other area. So there is so much fear and hatred of gay people, and I mainly heard the term sodomite growing up. I don't think I really heard the term like gay people, so like very hateful, very bigoted. And so that was sorry. That means what does sodomite mean? Well, thank you for asking that. Yeah, so with this story of Sodom and Gomorrah, long story short, God they teach that God burned this, destroyed this city of Sodom and Gomorrah because they were gay, basically. And so, so yeah, so with like sodomy, so basically like gay sex. So it's it's a very derogatory term, dehumanizing term that reduces someone to just one thing and it's never used usually in a positive light. But yeah, sodomite, yeah, it has its origins, yeah, from the the Bible and that story. Is that a good explanation?

SPEAKER_02 33:01

Yeah, that helps explain. So it's pretty much put in simple terms, like bad, because it's two people that are of the same sex having sex.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

Yes, yeah, except yeah, so yeah, it's so that was the term that I heard. And my sexuality was a big catalyst for me questioning. But when I realized it, so at this youth conference where all IFB youth were getting together, hearing all these different IFB youth pastors and pastors talk about purity and like not drinking alcohol, not listening to rock music, just trying to re-inforce more control and fear over us as we're getting older and we're normal human beings having normal human desires. But that environment tried so hard to get rid of your humanity so much. Any emotions or feelings like outside what they wanted, just like cutting that off and getting rid of it. Die to self is a common phrase I heard a lot, like you need to die to self, die to self, die to self. So getting rid of anything in you that does not align with them, just breaking you down. And so at this youth conference, it was I think in the one in 2016, that I ended up having strong remote romantic feelings with someone of the same gender. And it was so confusing to me because I was taught a very specific version of what gay people are like. And so growing up, it was taught that they're evil, they're awful, they're child rapists, blah, blah, whatever, like this very awful view. And I'm like, oh, like I'm having these romantic or these emotional strong feelings. And because of my indoctrination, there's of course an internal struggle, and there was shame, guilt, and there was a lot of trauma, mental health issues. I fell into a deep, deep, depressive episode and was just like praying and begging begging. And I believed that, oh, if I don't change my sexuality, that God is gonna kill me. Like, that's what I really believed. Like, I was made to be so afraid of that. And so after that moment of figuring that out, trying so hard to pray and pray and pray, I began kind of on a journey of like, can I be the like both of these things? Or do I need to leave? And it really made me question like, oh, well, if if they're wrong about this, what else are they wrong about? And that kind of started me on that journey. That's how I'll stop there for now.

SPEAKER_02 35:36

Well, that's gonna at least that started you on that journey. I know with me, I had always known, but at least for me, it was family. That's a Christian Catholic family I grew up in. And my grandma at least was the number one person who said, You're gonna go to hell if you love someone of the same sex. My grandpa has was always very loving no matter what, but she was the main one that I guess indoctrinated that idea in my head before even going into Twin Flames universe. Because with them, they at least indoctrinated the idea, in my personal opinion, that in order for you to be accepting in society as a queer person, you must play either the male or female role. That was mainly it by doing divine masculine, divine feminine. So you must play this role if you are going to be accepted in society. And I thought, wow, that makes it easier for me. For me, at least I thought that was great at the time. But as soon as I got out, I've gotten a little more. I haven't experienced a lot of queer culture besides actually talking to others and going to two pride events so far. Yeah. That's been my extent so far. But yeah, also being autistic makes it harder to go out and socialize sometimes. But I get most of my socializing here and at work.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

Yeah, I mean, yeah, do whatever feels right to you at your own pace. Again, taking those baby steps and being being true. I think being true to you and who you are is so important. And I think at times I've noticed that even coming out of coming out of that cultic environment, trying to find another role or thing to conform to, because it's it can be very hard to discover and learn about yourself, but it can also be, I think, very exciting.

SPEAKER_02 37:29

Yes, fully agree with that. Well, you already covered that one. Oh, once you figured out your sexuality, how did that sorry?

SPEAKER_01 37:38

I say again the sound cut out a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 37:41

Sorry, how did you once you figured out your sexuality? And I don't know if you accept it at this point, like in the cult, how did you view I B F.

SPEAKER_01 37:52

Oh, yeah. So yeah, how did yeah, my sexuality change my view on the IFB? Yes. Yeah, so that so with when it started me on that journey of questioning of, oh, if they're wrong about this, what else are they wrong about? Because the system, the system cannot stand on its own. That's why they hide you from the outside world, restrict information, the people you're around. Okay, and indoctrinate, you tend to never question or to fear questioning that questioning is of Satan and doubting is of Satan. Because once you pull one, it's like the stack of cards, you pull one card out, it just all falls apart and does not work. And so as I've been writing my own memoir, which I'm excited to read yours when it gets published, I'm excited for that.

SPEAKER_02 38:44

You want to read yours when it comes out?

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Oh, thank you. As I've been writing it, it's this this inspiration came to me a few days ago when I started recording it. And it's like it's like the the environment works for you until it doesn't. And so it's this realization at first, like before I could process more of the environment I was in, as a as I've been writing my memoir as a child. There is this very young age, there's this sense of gratefulness of oh, I'm in this environment that is keeping me safe from the outside, evil, awful world. And I'm so glad to be a part of God's chosen, and I'm going to heaven, and I'm so glad I'm not a part of the world that's all gonna go to hell, and that God is gonna destroy and burn the world one day, and I won't be a part of that. But then I know that's a that's so much as a child to believe that, but and then as I got older and sort of realizing these things, starting to realize that, oh, but they're wrong about something else that they're wrong about, and even starting to feel like maybe I don't want to be a part of this, realizing that oh, like I'm trapped. Like that was such a hard feeling because I think there are a lot of people that they're in their own cages, but they don't realize it. And I feel like that is a part of occultic experiences when you're so indoctrinated, you don't realize you're trapped. And I love Dr. Yanya Lalach's bounded choice theory so much because when I read her theory after getting out, like you are psychologically bound in this environment. And once you began to awake up to that, this place that I saw as a safe haven from a young age, and then getting older and realizing, oh, this is a trap. Like I'm trapped in this. This is something something's not always having the not having the language then, but being like something's wrong with this, something doesn't feel right about this. And there were even moments throughout my childhood that there were intuitive feelings that came up that were like shoved away or shoved down, because I interpreted that as Satan making me question. So yeah, so it changed my view of it from this safe haven to this trap and to something that was thinking, oh, this something's wrong with this, this could be harmful.

SPEAKER_02 40:57

Yeah, at least that's good that came up to help at least start the process, hopefully, of getting out. How did you end up Bob Jones University?

SPEAKER_01 41:06

Well, yeah. So in the IFB world, for the men, it is expected that they go to an IFB college to either become like a pastor or just some kind of male-based role or learn some trade. Um, and for me, and and also like it's known in the IFB for going to these colleges to find a partner, and so for women, they they would have degrees for them that taught them just how to be a submissive wife, to be a homemaker, and I know it's awful. It was disgusting, yeah. Yeah, and but for me, growing up, I was always a dreamer, and like I kept a lot of those things to myself, like imagination, and like growing up in that, like you were not allowed to have like dreams or ambitions. That was worldly, that wasn't allowed, that's what the outside world people wanted to do. Like, you don't have dreams, you don't have ambitions, you obey. Obedience was such a core part of that environment. Just obey, obey, obey. And so for me though, I was like, I have dreams, I have ambitions. And for me, like I wanted there, there's just something in me that like there's more to this. There's more, there's more to life than following this rote, black and white, rigid, stagnant, like like there's more. And so as I was looking at different colleges, Bob Jones University was they are not affiliated with the IFB, they are their own thing. And I say that because some people call them as part of the IFB, but they do not take the KJV only stance. So for me, like they're automatically like excommunicated from any association for the movement because of that. But I wanted a college that had an array or a variety of different career options to choose from. And I was like, is that possible in the fundamentalist college world? And Bob Jones was that rare, I think, college that did have all kinds of different careers to choose from, but of course, they still had their indoctrination throughout the programs. But when I looked at them, I was like, oh, like they have so many different options. And for me, what drew me to Bob Jones was one of the ways that IFB keeps you trapped in their system, is at their different colleges, they're not legitimate accreditation. So you really cannot get hired outside of their network or world. And so I was like, if I if I'm gonna leave, I'm gonna have to get a college degree that is accredited where I can work in the outside world. And so So Bob Jones was actually shockingly accredited. They actually got their accreditation, they had gotten it revoked like decades before because of a Supreme Court case about banning interracial dating and marriage, which that's a whole other thing. So they finally got their accreditation back in 2017. So I I went to Bob Jones not really wanting to go to a fundamentalist college, but seeing it as a way out of I can get out of this environment if I go, do this for four years, get this accreditated degree, and I can go in the outside world. And I also just wanted to get from under the control of my parents, just growing up in that my entire life under my parents' authority, very much controlled, just wanting some kind of freedom. And so yeah, I saw Bob Jones as a way out, even and people s at times slam me because, oh, like you're gay and you went to Bob Jones. Um but it was for me, it was looking back, I was in a double bind. It was either stay in the IFB or go to some fundamentalist college. That's what I felt like my options were at that time.

SPEAKER_02 45:09

Well, that's understandable. I know with me, though, my majority was online. So even though the current gurus flash cult leaders claim that you can just close your computer. Well, you have your cell phone. And I believe most people use your cell phones a lot.

unknown 45:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

You carry them everywhere. So you technically have them everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 45:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 45:34

Like I would get alerted constantly on my phone by them. Yes, you can turn off your phone, but then you get behind on whatever the alleged cult is doing. And then you have to catch up and you'll get chewed out if you don't. But yeah, I understand that feeling of stuck because with me, it was always, oh gosh, I'd actually turn off my phone sometimes to try to give myself a break from it. But as soon as I turned it on, because I had so many roles within the community, yeah, I had to catch up and I'd get chewed out, whether it was by the gurus themselves, or I would get chewed out by other community members. So after a while I stopped turning off my phone unless it was nighttime, which that became an actual rule at some point within the group of only turn it off if you're sleeping or if you're sick. Those were the only two reasons to do that. So, yes, people do use computer. We did that for Zoom, but you could also do Zoom on your phone. So people know that I did do a whole little actual YouTube content of explaining that the first people that actually did it was I don't remember the cult's name, but they were obsessed with aliens and that aliens were gonna do something. You can still see their site today. And I put the site in the description of I'll try to find it and put it up here in the little interview portion of what we're doing, but they've been around. So online cults have existed since the 1980s. So it's been around for a pretty long time. It's not a new thing. What TFU is doing is not new, and what other people are doing, even if it's biblical or otherwise, you don't have to be a religion to be a cult. I wish people understood that.

SPEAKER_01 47:20

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And kind of like saying to what you're talking about, like people need to learn so much more about coercion because it's so frustrating to hear the blaming and the shaming of why didn't you do this? Why didn't you do that? But like the psychological hold and the manipulation and indoctrination is just so deep. It's just you you're really you are psychologically trapped. And I feel like too, that's why I love Dr. Lulch's bounded choice is it really explains that it's not this black and white do or don't do. It's you are you're psychologically bound.

SPEAKER_02 47:55

I still need to read her book, but I have such a big list. But I still have to read at least that one. I read back my life. I did read that in both listening form and physical reading form. But yeah, but I'm happy that we also have, which I hope Dr. Lawlich works with Dr. C because they could honestly do a lot of good. And I would hope that being those who work within emotional intelligence, coercion, cults, and ex-members ourselves, it would be cool if we could all come together instead of all separately having, like, I know a little bit culty still exists, stuff like that. Instead of all doing that, if we could all come together, bring our own experiences, add to the research of what they're already doing. Yeah, if we could do that, that would honestly be good because then there is more facts versus this is a theory versus like there is facts with Dr. C. There is facts with Dr. Robin Stern, they have facts, they have factual data. And Dr. Lawlich, I know she has some facts, but I also know she has theories that haven't been tested yet, too, right? Or am I wrong? Tell me if I'm wrong.

SPEAKER_01 49:06

Yeah, I yeah, so is her bounded choice model. She's done research for that. I don't know all the ins and outs of it, but yeah, she she did her dissertation and her research into that.

SPEAKER_02 49:20

That makes me want to read it more. But I do think I still stand strongly on that, that we should all come together because every cult that people have been in, we have something in common, no matter what, within the cult teaching itself. And if we could bring that data together instead of just sharing it widely on podcasts, which is great, and on YouTube, which is great, getting the word out there, but it's still hard to get it out there. If we could get that factual data for those that pay attention to data and somehow get it on a larger scale, that would be great. And if we could get, I know one of my goals personally, that's why I hope to work with Dr. C myself, is to try to get into law in all 50 states, even the red states' coercion law of not just like, which I know Dr. C has a very similar vision to me. I didn't know that until she announced it on her IG, but to have in the court system, like Australia has at least an abusive relationship. It would be great if we had it not only child, adult, adult, adult, but in group setting law-wise. It's just how that would look and how we could figure that looking. I've been actually writing it down for myself to try to figure out a definition of how that can look in three different ways, and how the court system can do that. I actually have a video coming out that's YouTube content, podcast content, and about next Saturday that just goes over coercion. And I already know how each state goes into law that way, but I want to make a template and I want to hear from people that are interested in taking part in this in whatever state they're in and trying to make this a reality because it's gonna take a lot of people. And even though I'm not that big, I hope to get bigger, at least on YouTube and through my podcasts, so I can reach more people that hopefully are interested in changing the system to help, like truly help keep up those who are survivors slash victims of whether it's a cults, whether it's a one-on-one cults, yeah, abusive relationship of any side, have a way out. Because right now we don't, and we need to get that the only way of doing it, which yes, all cults alleged or not, do something illegal. But regardless of that, we also need to have a safeguard, which we don't have, and children especially too, which that's what I also like about Dr. C's work. She does that with children. Actually, Dr. Robin Stern also works with kids too.

SPEAKER_01 51:53

But yes, yeah, and like what I love too, Dr. Lolitch has a book, Escaping Utopia, which I love because I think children and cults is also something not covered a lot for those of us who grew up in that is very difficult. But yeah, back to what you're talking about, the coercion stuff. Yes, that is a commonality between all these groups. And for so long, because I I love that you emphasize too that not all cults are religious. And that is definitely true because some people can get out of religious cults and like get involved in another cult that has no religious beliefs at all. And so it's I think that's why putting the safeguards of coercion, learning about coercion education is so important to protect ourselves from this. So yeah, thank you for the work that you're doing to work towards that. That's inspiring.

SPEAKER_02 52:40

Well, thank you. And I'm gonna try to bring other ex members aboard too that choose to be a part of this in whatever state they're in, because I know everyone's in different states and helping with templates. It's a thought process that I've only announced so far and only written. Like I said, I want to make a clear definition because that's what each state will need: a clear definition of what coercion is, why it's important, why they should care, and actual data. So Dr. C has data, Dr. Robin Stern has data, and I guess Dr. Lawlich would have data, right? At least when it comes to bounded choice.

SPEAKER_01 53:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 53:18

So getting data from each of them, too.

SPEAKER_01 53:21

Yeah. And like she she's interviewed a lot. I think she interviewed like over 40 children from Colts, too. Yeah, so she she has her own research that she's definitely has done. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 53:31

Then I need to read both books too, because I need the part of getting this ready for everyone is having data available already. So the only work they have to do is sending it to their representative in state and asking it to become law, and then representative presenting it in whatever state they're in to whoever their governor or whatever they are. I guess governor, governor, because that's part of the process. So it goes through their court systems too, and eventually to the person who signs it that plays the role of president in that state.

SPEAKER_01 54:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:04

But yeah, I did my research. I've been researching this a while.

SPEAKER_00 54:08

That's great.

SPEAKER_02 54:09

Just like I know Dr. Lawlich is doing coercion stuff, which I'll write some articles still, and I actually have the interview, which she said I can send to you anyways, if I do coercive stuff, and you can figure out what to do with it. Oh, you'll have stuff being sent your way.

SPEAKER_01 54:25

Yeah. Now yeah, look at that. Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 54:28

Yeah. And I thought that was important to bring up since we all are on the same, I guess, yeah, experience. Yes. Can add to data and can add to helping wherever we need to help, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 54:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:45

But Bob Jones University.

SPEAKER_01 54:50

Yeah, yeah. So with Bob Jones University, here I am. I'm going from an already high control environment, really like right into another. And at first it did kind of certain aspects, I guess, felt more afraid not being under my parents, but there are still other aspects of control. So when you're when you go to the college, you're not allowed to live off campus unless you're 23 or older. And they make that rule because they know most of their college students are 18 to 22 that are attending. And so you're forced to live on this campus, and they do that because they have this high control system in the dormitories, in the dorms where you live. And there's this hierarchy of leadership in each dorm. So at the top, there is a dorm supervisor, then underneath there is the dorm mentor, and then on every single floor, there is a residence hall assistant. And then when you're in the dorms, you are part of what they call discipleship groups, which means several nights a week. That happened when I was there. And so there was a discipleship group leader for each group, and each group probably had like three rooms combined. And so, and then each group had an assistant discipleship group leader. So you had all these leaders throughout all these dormitories making sure that their rules were enforced. And just so I don't have to, I guess, repeat too much. I mean, they had basically the same roles as the IFB, strict rules around clothing, gender roles, sexuality, music, media, where you even like even where you could go to church. So with that environment, very structured, very regimented. So again, so part of the culture, you so you're a college student taking these college classes, and you're part of these discipleship groups that meet several nights a week. We also had chapel several days a week during the day. I think it was like from 11 to like 11:35, where it was just like singing songs, prayer, worship, and then we had to we all had to recite the BJU creed every time we did chapel, which was so creepy, even that's like yeah, even like even the first time when we did it, just like chills went all over my body, and that's in the surviving Bob Jones podcast. I have that in the intro of each episode of just the monotone reciting of this creed, and it it's just basically that creed, it goes over just the fundamentals of what they believe, and you you had to say it. You had to bel you had to at least say you believe that creed to even go to the college, and you were supposed to participate in saying it. And I remember the president during the time I was there petted, I remember him telling a story of when they were saying the creed that he saw someone in the crowd who wasn't saying the creed, and he went and followed them afterwards and asked them why they weren't saying the creed. So, yeah, so there was if you were not saying the creed, again, you weren't conforming. And so, again, in cultic groups, if you are straying in any way from what they teach or do or act or feel, again, you're seen as a danger, you're not seen as one of them, or maybe you're someone that needs to be like disciplined or realigned with the group or whatever. But yeah, conformity was just such a big part of it. And again, they talked about like authority. Authority was a big part of the IFB, also a big part of Bob Jones always obeying authority no matter what. And so, so yeah, so discipleship groups, chapel, and then we were also required to attend a list of BJU approved churches. And so I can't remember how long the list was, but you had to choose from the list, and you could not you could request to go outside the list, but they had to approve or disapprove it most of the time. Anything outside their list they, of course, disapproved of. And so, yeah, you were required to go to two church services a week. And so they would clear out the dorms to do that every Sunday. Um, oh yeah, I forgot to mention with chapel. When we're doing we're in chapel, our rooms are being checked. We had to clean them like several days. I think I can't remember how many days they were checked, like three to four days of the week. And and there were times that they they would go through your stuff just to make sure like you did not have anything that was not approved. So there's a major lack of privacy. And another element of the control of the culture is a very surveillance type culture. They had this snitching system in place where if you saw someone breaking a rule and you did not report them, you were just as guilty as they were for reporting or for for going against that rule. So there is this culture of, oh, now all the students are now watching me. If I go outside this, then they'll report me or I'll get in trouble. So just trying so hard to conform to these standards, fear of being found out or getting in trouble or not being good enough. This pref very performance-based, authoritarian, very much very authoritarian. Let's take a look at my notes a little bit to make sure I'm covering it well. Yeah, so it was all about and again, BJU thought their way was the only way. If you believed you were following God's way, you would automatically align with all their roles and their expectations. And there's just part of what I learned through doing the podcast, Surviving Bob Jones and Beyond BJU, because I asked Dr. Camille Lewis, who has done so much research and documentation of Bob Jones University, and I was asking her, I was like, what makes Bob Jones University different from these like other Christian colleges? And she said there what's different is that there is just loyalty that is just expected and ingrained when you go to Bob Jones being this loyalty to them that she hasn't seen at other uh Christian colleges before. And so, and and that's one of the reasons so many people are afraid to talk about Bob Jones University and their experiences. They've had all kinds of scandals throughout the year. There is sexual abuse claims, like mishandling of sexual abuse claims scandal in the early 2010s that made it to the New York Times. And that's a whole other area. And people can hear about that in the Surviving Bob Jones podcast and issues around LGBTQ and race and other things. But yeah, it is just in this environment that's very authoritarian, there's very much surveillance, it's all about so much conformity, and it is just exhausting. And and again, if this system is harming you, like you're not allowed to even question that. Like you're the issue. And there was no there is no legitimate mental health assistance at this school either. They have biblical counseling, which wasn't really counseling at all. It was about blaming the person, it was getting the person to basically admit how awful and sinful they are, and then just to realign with the belief system. And on the Beyond BJU podcast, I interviewed a dorm counselor who's told me a story of Bob Jones kicking out a student just because they tried to take their own life. So it's just there's so much also like just lack of love and care in that environment, too, even though they claim to be about love. But that's kind of a quick overview of that environment.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:13

Honestly. Not great. And then the very important question before we leave the people, how did you escape IBF slash Bob Jones University?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:25

Yeah, so I ended up getting expelled from Bob Jones, my senior year, and it was through an interview I did online just sharing my experiences of what I had processed at that time of the trauma from the environment as a queer person. And I discovered the term religious trauma, which is the first term that I had found. I didn't realize at that point that I was in a cult, but that was empowering to me to be like, hey, like this system is harming me. This is the impact that I've seen so far, and it's it's been devastating on my life, and it's hurting other people and other people being harmed and suffering in silence, and it's not okay, and it needs to stop. And so just being finding my own voice and speaking out against that was so empowering, and I was expelled for that. And that was just me sharing my own story. And when I got out, and something there's there's so much more, there's so many different aspects of my story, which is why I'm writing a memoir, so many interlocking pieces. But I had connected with the family secretly outside of the Bob Jones world while I was there, and they ended up like getting me out and honestly like really saving my life. Like I wouldn't, I don't think I would be here at all if I had never met them. But yeah, I got out and began this journey of understanding, unpacking what I had been through processing on this healing journey, and then realizing that, oh, like I grew up in a cult and this school is also a cult. And going on a path of I want to expose all these things that need to come to light, the harm that it's done, and really help stop people from going to this school that has always tried to put this shiny, happy, perfect image and show a lot of the horrible things that have happened and continue to happen at the school and how it's impacted survivors. And I think that is such an important part of that healing journey is finding that voice and that empowerment. But yeah, I was expelled for speaking up about my experiences coming out and just denouncing their way of life.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:38

So I'm glad that you got out, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:40

Me too.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:40

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:41

I know, because I before that happened, I had this like several long year like plan of this is how like slowly, this is how I'm gonna slowly inch my way out and leave because it just was so scary and just seemed so hard or at times nearly impossible to leave that kind of environment.

unknown 1:05:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:58

I definitely know the feeling, at least. With me, my mom, and an article, I guess. First Sarah Brewman's article, and then my mom were keys in getting me, at least out. Because no logic, at least, actually, yeah, my personal experience and those I've heard from, you kind of lose logic when you're in there, and logic doesn't exist. It might seem like it does, just like place from the cult I'm from. They say, Yeah, this is logically how to do it. And here is spiritual. We combine both together. And I know sometimes they play that. Some other cult leaders from the past and present play on that too. Of here's some logic, even though it's just insanity. Here's but yeah, I get the feeling. And it's good to also hear from others that have the same experiences. It's pretty cool. Even if they're different settings, it's still the same experience, regardless. Yeah. Okay. And now we are going to end it. So thank you for being here, Andrew. And if you like the content, please like, subscribe, and pay attention for when I actually start doing it podcast style. I will keep everyone up to date. And if you want to go check out Andrew's podcast and more, it will be in the description. And if you want to learn about the book that he brought up a couple times, which I'll ask him for the link, that will also be down below. And embrace your truth, tell your story. I have a story to tell, you have a story to tell. Yeah. So let's all tell our stories.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:29

Yes, love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:31

Till next week on Saturday, 10 a.m. Eastern Standard Time.

unknown 1:07:35

Peace.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:36

Thanks so much for being here, everyone. Uh, I hope you enjoyed this episode with many more to come. If you'd like to help support and grow the podcast and even the YouTube channel, please not only follow, like, subscribe, but please leave a review on Spotify, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, or anywhere you listen to this podcast. Thanks so much for being here. Until next week, on Wednesday at 7 a.m. Mountain Standard Time. Peace. Catch you later.