The Truth about Scientology with Pamela Nickel Williams a Survivor!

What if you were born into a cult with no choice, no escape, and no one telling you it wasn't normal? Pamela Nickel Williams was. In this episode, she shares her remarkable story of growing up inside Scientology, the trauma she buried for decades, and why she finally decided to speak out. Her memoir Clearly Lies Are True is just the beginning.

Music By: AJ Music Group

Lyrics By: Jessi Hersey

Artwork By: Zummi

Here are my social media links: 

Linktree: https://www.linktr.ee/clearlyliesaretrue

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/clearlyliesaretrue

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@clearlyliesaretrue

Website: https://www.clearlyliesaretrue.com

Substack: https://www.substack.com/clearlyliesaretrue

Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/57033102.Pamela_Nickel_Williams

Where to purchase my book: 

Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Pamela-Nickel-Williams/author/B0FCDMXD39?ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_1&qid=1752342259&sr=8-1&isDramIntegrated=true&shoppingPortalEnabled=true&ccs_id=358751ac-e860-4347-baf9-57eee8b2389a

Barnes and Noble: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/clearly-lies-are-true-pamela-nickel-williams/1148272559?ean=9798218670757

Bookshop.org: https://bookshop.org/beta-search?keywords=Clearly+Lies+Are+True

Here is the link to The Michael J. Rinder Aftermath Foundation. 

My book is included in their library of book resources. 

The Michael J. Rinder Aftermath Foundation: https://www.theaftermathfoundation.org

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Listening to voices, stories can be strange. It's good to open up to new stories and finding backstories of how people came to be, only to free the mind of what blinds us with only a glance gives us a chance to see people be who they truly are, from silent voices to shining light. Stories that inspire awareness and change. I welcome you to Jesse's stories, unheard voices.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Hi, I'm Pamela Nickel Williams, and I've been an educator for my entire life. But recently, a year ago, I published my very first book, which is called Clearly Lies Are True. It's my memoir about growing up in the cult of Scientology. So now I'm an author as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

And for reference.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Thanks, Jesse.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

And then what inspired you to write your memoir?

SPEAKER_01 1:27

I'm not sure I was inspired. So when I've shared this, it's kind of twisty and turny. I'll try to give you the shortest version of it. About 15 years ago, I experienced a traumatic event in my life. And that traumatic event brought about some repressed memories. It activated those repressed memories. And many of those memories were about sexual abuse that I suffered at the hands of my father when I was a child. And so I didn't know what to do with those memories. They were frightening. I just I didn't know what to do with them. So I just started journaling and just trying to get them out of my head and onto paper and dealing with them that way. And through that writing, I started to also think about childhood memories. And growing up in the cult of Scientology, I'm a second generation Scientologist, so that means my parents were first generation and I was born into Scientology. I had lots of childhood memories of Scientology, things that we did as a family, things that I did when I was a teenager. And so I started to just put them all down on paper. And I started to think about wow, this is a chronology not only of my life, but also of the Church of Scientology. I call it the cult of Scientology, but you know, they call it a church. And so I started to put all that down on paper and I saw that I had a story. And I didn't really know what to do with that story for a very long time. I wrote secretly. I didn't even tell my family I was writing. You know, I just needed to deal with it on my own terms. And finally, about four or five years ago, I seriously considered writing it as a book. And I worked briefly with a small publishing company and really a literary agent. And then I decided that I wanted to self-publish it. I wanted to be in charge of my own story. And so I published it in August of 2025. And it's it's out there now, and it's really taken on a life of its own, which I never imagined. Every day is a little surreal in that I never imagined myself as an author, and I never imagined that I would speak out against Scientology, and I never imagined that I would have all these opportunities to share my story. I've been at lots of book festivals, I go into Barnes and Noble's bookstores, and I share my book and my story, and I've had book signings, and it's pretty unreal.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Well, congratulations for one for doing that. And that's awesome with this realness that's happening too. What made you want to join Scientology?

SPEAKER_01 3:52

So nothing. So I had no choice. I had absolutely no choice in that I was born into Scientology. And so that's where my story is a little bit unique. Many people have written memoirs, memoirs about Scientology. So mine is unique in that my parents were early first followers of L. Ron Hubbard, who was the founder of Scientology. And my father read his book, Dianetics, The Modern Science of Mental Health, that was published in 1950. And he was all in. He was a true believer of everything L. Ron Hubbard espoused about the reactive mind and the way you can clear out those memories and become free of them. So when Scientology began a few years later, when L. Ron Hubbard went to Washington, DC, to start the first church of Scientology, my parents followed him. And so they worked side by side with him and his wife and his family was there. He had children at the time, and that's where I was born. And my parents were all in as Scientologists. And once L. Ron Hubbard left, though, to go over to the UK to grow Scientology over there and to avoid taxes, basically. My parents chose not to follow him over there at that time. And we moved around the United States and we followed different organizations in Scientology, and I write about all that in my memoir. And eventually we did go over to St. Hill Manor, which is where L. Ron Hubbard grew Scientology in the UK. And my mother and my little brother and I were there. I write about that in my memoir. We got on the very first ship that L. Ron Hubbard bought for what he called his sea organization. And that was really, again, to avoid taxes to sail out into the Mediterranean Sea to not be able to have to pay taxes because UK was coming after him. And we sailed around, and my mom received Scientology training and auditing on the ship. But I was a small child. I was about nine years old. So we were in a nursery with other Scientology kids, and it was some pretty bizarre times. So I write all about that in my memoir. And then we came back and we came to Los Angeles in 1968 because the organization was growing here. Scientology was booming in LA. And so my mother came out and then we followed her. And that's really where my Scientology path began when I was a teenager.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

That's you're my first I've ever talked to that. So this is really cool to have you on. So thank you so much for being here. What did your courses consist of?

SPEAKER_01 6:23

So as a teenager, well backtrack. So when we were in St. Hill, when we were in the UK, and my mother was studying there and getting training and auditing, I took a children's communication course. I only know of it because I have a certificate that my mother saved. I have really no recollection of it besides being in a room with other kids. So I don't really remember that very first course. But when I started being active in Scientology as a teenager, I took lots of courses. And so the first one was again the communication course. And in Scientology, like many cults, there's a hierarchy of learning, a hierarchy of knowledge, a hierarchy of attainment. And so they rope you in early with a simple course. This one is about making you a better listener, making you able to, you know, speak to people, but it's really just a ploy to get you to pay money and to become more involved. So that's where I started. And, you know, my parents were paying. And then other courses that were really built on the doctrine of L. Ron Hubbard. So L. Ron Hubbard was what they called source. And he is still considered the source, the source of all knowledge in Scientology, the source of anything that you would learn in Scientology. You know, nothing else can be considered, only what he has written. And so you study all of his bulletins, all of his writing, you have to read many of his books, and then you have to show that you understand everything that he said. You have to demonstrate your understanding. And in these courses, what you have to do, and I write about it in my book, you have to show representation of it. So they give you clay, and you have to, like Plato, and you have to mold the clay into representations of words that you've learned and situations that you've learned about. And you have to demonstrate that. And then there's a course supervisor that walks around to monitor to make sure that everybody is doing what they're supposed to be doing. A little bit like school.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Very much so. It actually reminds me of my preschool days of parrying. Because we definitely did the clay thing. I do clay and play-doh. That's wow. That's relatable for people.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

Yeah, it is. It is. But bizarre as adults in that even though it can help you, because you know, you're taking that understanding and you're putting it into an object so that that kinesthetic, you know, helps you and being able to transfer that knowledge that way. Really, I think the purpose in Scientology was more control, more to control you, and to say this is the way that you have to do it. Not like if this works for you, let's try that. Everybody had to do that. And so there's such a rigid doctrine in Scientology and so many rigid protocols for all of the training and even, you know, for the auditing. So that was some of my early coursework. And then I became an auditor.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

And can you describe what an auditor is and what role you play in being an auditor?

SPEAKER_01 9:33

Right, right. So in Scientology and in other cults, the auditor is really that person who is not necessarily more enlightened in Scientology, but more trained. So you've been trained to be this listener. You've been trained to follow the Scientology protocols and that series of questions to ask to help what they call a pre-clear. So somebody who has not yet cleared their reactive mind. So in Scientology, they believe that, you know, all those memories, they call them aberrations that are in your head or in your reactive mind need to be cleared out and you need to be freed of those to ref to attain this state of clear, which is where your reactive mind is not influencing your actions and your behavior. And there's levels and levels and levels of that. So as an auditor, you're helping that pre-clear get to those levels. And part of that auditing is also activating not only memories from this lifetime, but Scientology believes that you're an infinite being and that you've lived forever and ever and ever. And so you have memories from billions of years, you know, infinity, all the way back. And so you're trying to help them clear out all of those memories. And that was a very bizarre experience as a teenager because I was a very young, a young auditor, you know. I was between 13 and 15 were my auditing years. And so in Scientology, which sounds so bizarre to you know to other people, like, how could you have done that? You weren't even an adult, right? But in Scientology, they believe that you're a Thetan. Everyone is a Thetan. So a Thetan is this infinite being that's lived forever and ever and ever. So you've lived all these lifetimes. So you just happen to be in this lifetime on this earth in this young body. That's how I was perceived when I was a child at the Scientology organizations. And so people would even say that to me. You know, it's so cool, you know, that you're here in this young body doing this now and getting it while you're young. So it was a very, you know, strange perspective perspective. But that said, as a teenager, who doesn't want to be grown up? So I wanted to feel grown up. I wanted to be grown up. I wanted to participate in all these things that adults were doing, you know, when I was at the organization. You know, I was the youngest person there. And so that really fed me in that I felt so grown up and I felt like I was doing something that was so important. So becoming an auditor was exciting.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

That makes sense. And it's just like ascension coaching, everything you described too, since something that's taught in Twin Flames Universe by Jeff and Shelia is that you are an infinite, pretty much like that. You've been lived many lives and you have to get rid of those sins that you have had. So if you do have a disability or are not to normal standards, that means you're being punished from a past life was part of that. But in Ascension Coach, we're supposed to help clear and heal the core issue that you're having in the moment, whether that's being your authentic self or trying to think of other things they use, just things that are blocking you from your twin flame, who's yourself, literally just a mirror of yourself. Just reminds me different language, but same thing.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Yeah, yeah. Are you sure they didn't read Line Hubbard's?

SPEAKER_00 13:08

Probably. Like they do a lot of Mexican stuff too.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Yeah, yeah. I think they just pulled from everything.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

I think so. They have zero train of thoughts of their own. Like I know right now they're going towards neurodivergence by claiming they themselves are neurodivergents, which if you go backwards in time to the beginning of their making of Twin Flames Universe, they really didn't like anyone who's not normal. I would continue doing that.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Right, right. But you know, so similar to Scientology and to L. Ron Hubbard because, you know, he talks so much in his early writing and Dianetics and his early writing about, you know, he was homophobic. You know, those were people that were, you know, like sociopaths to him. You know, I mean, he talked about that, he talked about sexual predators, he talked about all of those things. But at the same time, he also condoned it through some other writing and some other things that he said, you know, within his writing. So he was always playing both sides. He was so anti-psychiatry, anti-anything, you know, that would have outed, you know, his beliefs that he had created this modern science of mental health. So, you know, it's the same playbook. It's just a different cult.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

Yeah, different cult, same playbook. Like they even actually, it was a Canadian show, like criminal investigation show. Her name is Avery Hines, she's pretty awesome. She did an interview with Jeff and Julia, and Jeff talked about, oh no, no, we don't claim to be psychologists or helping people. And then, like a month or two later on his YouTube channel, he goes, Yes, we can help you in these areas, which are in fact psychology. So he literally went right against what he said and claimed on live TV in Canada. Of no, we don't do that. And then clearly you do. You just went against what you just said.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

Right, right. Yeah. And again, I think that's just part of the nature of being that cult leader because you know, you're trying to sell it every which way. I mean, that's was Al Ron Hubbard's purpose was to make money. You know, he was a pulp science fiction writer in the 40s, and he wasn't making a lot of money, you know, writing science fiction. And the famous quote that's been attributed to him is you don't get rich writing science fiction, you get rich starting a religion. And you know, that's that's pretty much what he did.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

And one fact that I don't think everyone seems to understand is not all cults have religious backgrounds. Sometimes that happens second. So, like Twin Flames universe wasn't that way at first. The focus was just, well, I guess they still had the God idea. It came in a little later, like a year later, of them opening up things. But it's not all about religion. Religion becomes a part of it when they need to have more control, I think, of the situation, in my personal opinion. And tax exempt status. And that too. They can keep more money for themselves. Jeff actually even say it themselves. Well, Jeff mainly, he talks the most, but they're both equally, in my personal opinion, guilty. Anyway.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the whole story of Elren Hubbard, you know, is just he kept moving because of the tax exempt status, you know, being able to have all the money. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Yeah, that's what it's about, money and bodies and having enough bodies to make that money for you. So it's pretty much like America on steroids, I think a cult is.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Definitely a capitalist organization. I would agree with that.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

The best way I could describe it.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Yeah, I would definitely agree with that. It is interesting, so many parallels.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

There's a lot of parallels. It's insane.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

Oh, what was daily life like for you and the cult?

SPEAKER_01 16:58

So there's in Scientology, there are public Scientologists, so those are the paying members, right? We're talking about all the money they make. And then there was what L. Ron Hubbard devised in the 60s. And so that was 67. We were in the UK, and that's when he bought this ship, and we boarded that ship. And that was the very first voyage, the maiden voyage of that ship. It was called the Royal Scotman, but really it was renamed later to be called the Apollo, you know, after one of the gods. But he started that to create what he called the sea project, but it was really to create a crew to run this ship so that he could sail the Mediterranean and avoid taxes. And, you know, recluse himself from being in charge of being the CEO of Scientology and just become a writer who was, you know, out in the sea writing. And so that really helped him with avoiding all those taxes and keeping the money. But that sea organization grew and grew and grew from that. And so today, the sea organization are and were back then even, they're the indentured slaves. They are the people that sign billion-year contracts to be in this the sea organization and to dedicate their entire lives to Scientology. They make very little money, less than minimum wage, they get housing and food, they work over 40 hours a week, they have no say in how their day is scheduled. You know, they are at the mercy of all of the officials at Scientology that they work under. So that was established, like I said, in the 60s. But public Scientologists continued. And so public Scientologists are the people like my parents and my family that were always paying members, except for that short period of time when my parents worked at the First Church of Scientology, you know, with L. Ron Hubbard. But then they became paying Scientologists. And paying Scientologists over time, from let's say the 50s till now have changed in that Scientology has started to target what they call the whales. So the whales are like those celebrities, those people, you know, that have tons and tons of money. So everybody knows about the celebrities Tom Cruise, you know, John Travolta, Elizabeth Moss, we all know about those. But there are also people that have infiltrated into government. There's Grant Cardone, there's a woman named Trish Dugan, she's on the board at the Kennedy Center. And so these are whales. These are millionaires who have tons and tons of money. And so Scientology has put their hooks in those people. And that's where they're getting them involved and getting them to pay lots and lots of money. So living as a Scientologist depends on who you are. If you have lots of money, you're treated quite well. And you know, you might think that Scientology is really helping you because you're treated really like a celebrity, those people that have tons of money. If you're in the C organization, you know nothing else, you've dedicated your life to that. And people who have dedicated years and years to a cult, we know there's this mentality of, well, I'm never gonna get out. This is just my life, right? And they know they know nothing else. And so sadly, that's true for so many people that are in the C organization. And then for, you know, regular Joes, kind of like my parents were, they were not wealthy, you know, we were middle class. Scientology sticks their hooks in those people, and that's what happened to our family, is that my parents paid so many, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars, thinking about, you know, the 60s through the 70s, into Scientology that they lost their home, they lost their savings, they gave off everything to Scientology. So life was chaotic as the child of a Scientologist, in that we were always following it. We were always going to the next place. And the other part of that is that there's always somebody within a cult that, you know, is the broken one. That's why you're in a cult, right? Because they're gonna fix you. They're gonna help they're gonna help you because you've got this ruin in Scientology, you've got this problem, you know, you've got this reactive mind. And so that's how they draw you in. And that's what happened to my mom. My mom was the one that always needed to be fixed. And that was according to my father, and that was according to Scientology. And so that's why we kept following it, and why she kept going for more training and more auditing. And, you know, of course it never fixed her. Sadly, it never fixed her. And we were able to leave, you know, when I was about sixteen years old, which was good. But the sad part of that is that my father contracted multiple sclerosis when I was a teenager. And so Scientology, he was no longer any good to Scientology because he couldn't work anymore and they had no money. And then my mother had to go back to work. She suffered from severe agoraphobia during that period of time prior to going back to work. She had psychotic episodes while she was involved in Scientology. So it wasn't a lot of fun. I guess put it that way. You know, like I said, those teenage years when I started to become active, and that was at the very first celebrity center, not the one that you see, you know, the big blue building and the one, you know, the one on Franklin Avenue in Los Angeles. But this was down in the downtown Los Angeles area in a very old building that they bought and repurposed. And that was at the very beginning of trying to get celebrities involved in Scientology, you know, long before Tom Cruise, a little bit even before when John Travolta first came in. And so that's when I became involved, and that my parents could no longer pay good money to go. My parents could no longer participate. And so I was, I always say, voluntold that I was, you know, I was given up. Then you go, you know, send your daughter. And that's how how my beginning, you know, in Scientology happened. So it was a a life that I chose, Jesse, to shut the door on. So after I left, I chose to say that that never happened to me. That's over. And to, you know, recreate myself. My family was out by that time. My father passed, you know, when I was 19. And I became an educator. I got married. I had a family. I lived what I termed a, you know, we use your quotes, a normal, right, life. And really didn't know that I had this trauma. Really, I mean, I guess I knew, but I didn't know on a conscious level that I had this trauma. And I chose to bury it.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Well, yeah. And sometimes unconsciously, at least what I've learned with PDSD, which most people that leave cults end up having PDSD, or if you're just autistic, that comes natural at birth. But the PDSD does block and keep certain feelings or traumas away, anyways, until your brain decides, oh, it's okay. Or if something, sometimes it's something just happening in life, triggers that emotion or memory that leads to, oh, cool. I guess this did happen. But that makes sense. And I'm glad that you took the healing journey and are talking about it and educating people using your education skills to educate others.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Thank you. Thank you. Like I said, it's not a story I ever thought I was going to write. I never thought I would speak out. I never thought I would say anything about it. You know, I thought it would be buried forever. And like you said, because of a traumatic event, that's what activated everything. And I really had no choice, is how I feel. I feel like if I had not dealt with it and somehow come to terms with what happened to me and how it happened to me, I would not have been able to heal. And like you said, as an educator, it had to make sense to me. I had to figure out the why, you know, why is this happening? And why did this happen? And I start my book that way, you know, with the premise of were my parents destined to, you know, my mom had severe anxiety, she was agoraphobic, she had psychotic episodes, my father was a sexual predator. Were they destined to be those people, or did Scientology become the catalyst that activated that in them?

SPEAKER_00 25:45

Ooh, that's a good question. I know it's me at least with my memoir. I do do the why, but I also do the what led me there too, because in my case, I wasn't born into it. But there are some that have been born into that cult now, including their child, the cult leaders, children, Jeff and Shelea.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

Sadly. Yeah, sadly. It's gonna be a hard life.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Well, yeah, and she's also showing signs, in my personal opinion, of possibly being a disabled child herself, of because she's at least of what I've seen of their shorts they've done, she's not really talking at the age she should be talking at. So she's kind of showing signs already, and that's probably due to being in the circumstance she is in right now. So I'm really hoping that eventually authorities do something when it's the right time to, since they are being investigated no matter what they say.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Yeah. Well, it's great that they're being investigated because that's one of the problems with Scientology, is that they have this bubble around them, you know, even though anyone you talk to, you know, when I go on book tours and I talk to people and I say, you know, who's heard of Scientology? Everybody raises their hand. When I say, Have you heard who's heard something good about Scientology? All the hands go down. So, you know, the publicity is not good about it, but they have this bubble around them. They have this protection with this tax exempt status. And they have not been investigated, and they certainly need to be. You know, there's so many people speaking out about it. I I don't know why they don't go and raid, you know, the C organization and see what the circumstances are for children, you know, that are being raised there. There's schools where, you know, people have written their memoirs about that, who grew up in Scientology and the conditions at the schools that they went to. It's it's horrific, you know, and it really does need to be investigated. So many people have spoken out, and that's what I hope is that my story helps, you know, it's one more that helps people hear about it if they're not familiar with it, and maybe to activate, you know, something more happening. But after I wrote my book, Jesse, I had to have more purpose than healing. So healing was great, and healing has been, you know, it's an ongoing journey. You know, every day is a new adventure, right? Um, but I wanted to do something that was more tangible. And so there is an organization that was actually founded by an ex-scientologist who has sadly passed, Michael J. Rinder. And he was the person who connected with Leah Remney when she came out, and they had an HBO series called The Aftermath that people might have watched, all about Scientology and things that happened in Scientology. And they really started to, you know, just open the doors widely and interview people and really expose so many of the abuses that happened within Scientology. And so that organization, the Aftermath Foundation, is a nonprofit that helps people get out of Scientology. And it helps those people, specifically in the C organization that I talked about, reach out anonymously. They set up really like recovery missions to help them get out and to give them a safe place to go to. Because these people, they haven't worked, many times they don't have an education, they've dedicated their lives to Scientology, and they really can't talk to their family because they've had to disconnect from them, and their family has disconnected from them. So the Aftermath Foundation gives them a safe space, it has resources for them, counseling, educational grants, you know, housing, all of that. And so I donate a portion of the proceeds from the sale of my book, Clearly Lies Are True, to the Aftermath Foundation. And I feel like then I have a purpose in telling this story, and people are being helped, you know, and that's that's the most I can do right now until they're exposed even further.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

That's true. And hopefully, people, if anyone listens on the podcast, it is still new. Well, at least on Spotify and listening stations. If you're listening and you are part of authority wise, maybe you should check out and start an investigation openly since it's already openly out there into Scientology. It would be great to see. I know I'd like to see that.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Yeah. Well, there's some great lawsuits, you know, that are happening right now. Leah Ramney has one because she's suing Scientology. And so we'll see, you know, we gotta keep our eyes on that one. And then there's some other people that have been involved in the C organization that have lawsuits, and then there's the sexual abuse ones, you know, and you know, thankfully Danny Masterson is behind bars. Thank goodness.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Thank goodness some more happens, and hopefully this reaches a lot of people too. And can you let them know where they can buy your book?

SPEAKER_01 30:37

Yes, yes, thank you. Thank you so much. You can buy it on Amazon. It's in paperback, it's an ebook, and it's also an audible recorded in my own voice. So that's a great place to get it. It's also on BarnesandNoble and bookshop.org, and that's where many independent bookstores order from. So you can look for it there as well. And if you need more information about me, my handle is clearly lies are true, and that's for Instagram and for TikTok. And then I have a link tree so you can see everything, all my other organizations or all my other social media. So I have a website, I also am on Goodreads, I'm on Substack. So try to make my platform available for all kinds of people. And that's really my goal, too. I think, like yours, Jesse, to get this message out to not just people that might be involved in cults, but to a wider audience, you know, to the general public, to say, you know, this is happening, and we want you to be aware of this. And that's really my message when I go out, and that's why I've been thrilled to be able to be on podcasts like yours, and like I said, to be in Barnes and Noble bookstores so you can see all my upcoming events, and I'll be at the LA Times Festival of Books in Los Angeles. I'm really excited about that. So that's next weekend. Yeah. So it's it's a life I never imagined. Every day, you know, when something comes along like this, I think I really can't imagine what I would have thought of myself, you know, a year and a half ago before everything was published. But I knew I had to speak out. And so I I need to do this work. And I'm just so thankful that, you know, you're doing it as well.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

Well, thank you for telling some of your story, and for everything you're doing too. I'll also make sure to leave links, at least not only in the YouTube post that I do, but I'm gonna try to do it. I'm still learning the whole podcast and how to get things. I guess Tabby or Dr. Tabitha will be my first that I learned. So they can she's resources too for those getting out of cults. She's a good resource. Her name is Dr. Tabitha Chapman. She is an ex-member of Nexium. Okay. That's not her whole title, but that's where people will understand she at least has understanding there too. But she also is towards the inclusive population since her and I are both part of the LGT LGBTQIA plus community. She's a great resource too for any cult. She deals with 24-7 and helping getting people out, recovery, getting resources, including houses, like you said, financial. I'm a board member of the Freedom Train, is what she has. But I do want to get your info too of yours, because I want to make sure to put a whole resource thing together that I'll also be putting in my memoir and I'll also be putting on my website and many other places in the process. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

Excellent, excellent. I have that in my book as well, a list of resources. I think it's so powerful, you know, to even because if somebody reads your story, it's like, okay, now what? How can I help, right? Where can I reach out to if this connects with me? And so I did the same thing. Yeah. So that's great. And and I saw the nonprofit also that you belong to. So there's so many organizations out there now to support these people. So soon, no one will be in a cult.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

Let's hope for it. I never thought I'd do this, but I'm excited as we talked about adventures. I'm gonna start adventuring into gaming more, which there's a little fear back there too, but I'm gonna do it because I feel like even in the gaming world and acting world, whether it's voiceover or anything, that there isn't education in culting. I've talked to an actress YouTuber too, and we've talked about this behind the scenes. I won't say her name for purposes of her, and I already talked about it behind the scenes of not to talk about it outwardly. So no name, but that there is some culty happenings even within the industry to itself, that I feel like maybe going further in, like Jesse's stories, why I have Jesse stories. Stories are everywhere. I also want to help people, not only telling my own story, but I also want to be able to help others tell their story too. But specifically disabled anyone who's not getting their stories out there that are ignored or unheard. That's why I have the title, Jesse Stories, Unheard Voices. I want to be as inclusive as possible and make sure we get those voices heard. And yeah, a lot of legwork to do it.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

It is, it's a lot of work, but you know, so appreciate it. I mean, you're doing all the right things, you know, and making sure that these stories get out there because I always say everybody has a story, you know, they just might not know how to tell it. They might not have heard another story to help them connect their story to that. And, you know, hearing it and starting to learn, oh, that does connect with some experience I've had. Maybe that does, you know, give me some resources, or maybe that can help me. So you never know. You never know where that's gonna reach. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

And I'm glad that yeah, we had this. And yay, thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

Thank you, Jesse. Like I said, I just really appreciate it and I just appreciate the work you're doing. So you're brave, you're courageous. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

You are also brave and courageous. I appreciate you. Thanks. Bye-bye. Thanks so much for being here, everyone. Uh, I hope you enjoyed this episode with many more to come. If you'd like to help support and grow uh the podcast and even the YouTube channel, please not only follow, like, subscribe, but please leave a review on Spotify, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, or anywhere you listen to this podcast. Thanks so much for being here. Until next week on Wednesday at seven AM Mountain Standard Time. Peace. Catch you later.