Conversations on Cults, Trump & Influence

In this episode, host Jessi sits down with guest Erin (Let the Fresh Erin) for a candid conversation about The Cult of Trump by Steven Hassan and Cultish by Amanda Montell. They dive into what makes a cult, the us-versus-them mentality in politics, Twin Flames Universe, Scientology, MLMs, and how cult tactics are showing up everywhere — from influencers to social media algorithms. A raw, eye-opening discussion you won't want to miss

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Listening to voices, stories can be strange. It's good to open up to new stories and finding backstories of how people came to be only to free the mind of what blinds us with only a glance gives us a chance to see people be who they truly are. From silent voices to shining light. Stories that inspire awareness and change. I welcome you to Jesse's Stories, unheard voices. Hey everyone, and welcome to Jesse's Stories. Today is a very special day. We have special guests, Let the Fresh Air In, aka Aaron, coming to talk about the Trump of Colts and Cultish and just other things that we just go into since we both like to talk cults and our experiences. So it's a pretty casual just conversation between both of us. Thanks so much for being here, guys. And I hope you enjoy the interview slash conversation. There you go. Now we're got it. Oh yeah. So I guess today we are talking casually about the cult of Trump and Cultish by Amanda Monteau. I'm excited. I am too. I actually really like how both books open.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Yeah. Especially with you do too. I liked specifically with the cult of Trump, how it does explain pretty well what a cult is, because I find that a lot of people who kind of prescribe to the cult of Trump, I guess I'll say, they want to call everybody else a cult. So just like both books having it clearly defined was really important, I think, to open with. So I'm obviously I'm sure the author's book did that very intentionally because it's just so funny what people will call a cult. And I'll be like, that's not even cult, that's just something you don't like. And I think it was cultish where they say a cult is not just some group you don't like or the type of person you don't like. It's literally a very structured, organized thing that's happening. So I did like that.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

I was gonna say, and the us versus them mentality that it's brought up in both and in cultish, the first I think the third page is brought up, the us versus them. Actually I have it highlighted in here too. As I throw a book. Let's see. Oh, I guess it's further in. It's page nine, like repeat after me chapter, and talking about the yoga three ho and crossfit.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Yeah, it was cool because they are in her book, in Amanda's book, she immediately starts mentioning some cult I hadn't even really heard of. I hadn't heard of 3HO before. So I was like, oh, this is another. It's scary how many there are in the United States alone. It's in the book right now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Yeah, 10,000 running. And that's not including followers, not including anything, and including in politics. So right now with the election going on, it's a good thing we're reading and going over this book.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

I know there are certain people I just want to mail this book to. Like, weird, you should read this or something. But there was a distinction that Steven made in his book where he did say, I don't believe all cult or all Trump supporters are necessarily a part of this cult because some people that have voted for cult, when we have actual logical conversations, I'm like, you see things way more than similarly to me than I would expect for you to have voted being someone who voted for Trump. I think when people get to a certain age, and I think it's a cult mentality, but people get so used to identifying as one party or another, they get so attached to that identity that they can't change their mind, even if the figurehead is extremely problematic. You know what I mean? Yeah, which agree or disagree.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

I fully agree with that, and I think it also has to do with I know it's a guilty pleasure of yours, but reality TV, since that is where Trump originally came from, is reality TV. And that is what helped his vote, at least in Stephen Hassan's description, helped in his first round of the election, of just being on reality TV.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

But apprentice, I didn't want to go there. I just remember hearing about it. More than I wanted to.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Yeah, and it's sad because now we're hearing about him more again. I know to the point he's taking up a lot of valuable space that could be used elsewhere.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

I know. Uh I try really hard to not be biased or come across as biased in any of the stuff that I post because I try to approach things from a very logical perspective and the middle of the road sometimes, but I just can't stand Donald Trump.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

I can't either, especially because thanks to him, honestly, why the hate is up with trans community, with just the LGBTQ or queer community in general, is thanks to him and thanks to his four years as president and leaving, he left that mark and divided literally America in half to hate group to not hate group.

SPEAKER_02 5:08

That's I think what's and that's the us versus them mentality. And I think that's what's really scary about people who are really invested in Donald Trump is it is literally not just us versus them. It's us versus them, and we hate them with everything in us. We will do anything in our power to destroy them. And that's what I think is really scary and problematic because with a lot of cults, it's just well, we're in our little community, and everyone else outside of it is a problem, and they're living a sad life. And if they go against us, it's just because they're it's a reflection of them and they don't know what they're talking about. They're the real cult. But with this one, it's very much we will do everything in our power to attack, destroy, ruin anyone who's different than us. And I think that's a like that's a difference. You know what I mean? That's where things start getting really violent, vitriolic, hateful, concerning, scary, really. And it's really scary that this seems to be a very loud group socially, and it seems like they don't have any boundaries or limitations to what they're capable of.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

It's true. Actually, uh believe when did this happen? It was like a year or two ago, I believe one of Trump's followers went and murdered a transgendered female, and it didn't make it on the news either at the time. It no one heard about it. Only who's in the community heard about it and tried to fight to get it on the news and didn't give any day or time even to the family that lost their daughter. And she was literally murdered. She was stabbed 20 times in the street coming home from work. I don't remember her name by hurt, I just remember her story by hurt because everyone, including myself, was upset, which she sadly didn't even get that. She was in a town in the first place that on top of that had a lot of Trump supporters because she was in one of the South areas. I don't remember which one exactly, that's why I'm not gonna say, but she was South and yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

But since I live in the southeast of America, I can tell you that it's very concentrated to the bigger cities where it's a lot more blue leaning because there are just more people there. A there are more people who come from other places there, and you drive an hour and a half east, and it is a different place, and it says Black Lives Matter and LGBTQ, and it has these links to the YouTube channels where they have discussions, and one of their weekly discussions is why Black Lives Matter. I'm like, we could have called it something else.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Yeah, that's but they haven't updated it in two years. They're not going to. The only people that do it are those that are followers. So the only time that will happen is if Jeff and Schlia, which they won't, pay attention to detail, which they don't, it's the only way that will happen.

SPEAKER_02 8:11

The LGBTQ one hadn't been updated since 2020. So I was like, wow, it looks like this nonprofit organization has zero social outreach, but they're like, give us 10% of your income. It's anyways, we digress, but hey, we can talk about that.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

That's fine. It still has everything to do with. We don't have to stay focused on the books. That's the point of discussion is wherever we go is wherever we go.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

And we had just we had gone from Trump's upbringing to Jeff and Julia, and there was something that I wanted to quote from the book too. Um, that I thought was interesting. That it says Trump was considering running for president as early as 1980 when he was asked if he would like to be the president of the United States on an interview show hosted by Rona Barrett. And he says, I really don't believe I would, Rona, because I think it's a very mean life. I would love and I would dedicate my life to this country, but I see it, meaning being in politics, as a mean life. And I think he is one of the meaniest, meanest people in the world. He is, I fully agree with that.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

He's also not, he's bright when it comes to manipulation and knowing what to say to bring those that love him, because I do have family members that are obsessed with him and hang on as every word and go, You're right. And it's so hard. I have to hold my tongue back, and it's so hard to do so because I want to say so many things, but I know I can't. Actually, I have multiple family members that are Trump supporters, which is technically just saying, I hate you to me. But I know that's literally what it is. No matter even if people say it's not true, there's little death threats, an actual point where anyone who is in the community, whether sadly trans are the ones getting the most of it, you still have your life threatened. It's a life-threatening thing. So it's scary that he's running again.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

Yeah, I really hope something happens legally where can't fully, but honestly, I feel like the other Republican options are like just as bad. There's just that runner. I just I and look, anytime I say that or anyone says that, the first argument people say is both parties are bad. Nobody is, I'm not saying that all politicians aren't corrupt. I think they all are. I'm not particularly floored with Biden's performance over the last four years. I'm not either. It's did I want to vote for Hillary Clinton? No, I'm not gonna vote for the lesser of two evils, and it's really scary that in our nation we have a democracy, but it's not even truly a democracy because there's so much that's out of the individual's control. And then there's this division between people, and we're because of these political forces, and it's just at the end of the day, we are all humans living in this society, and no matter what you spew at me or I spew at you, whether it's hateful or logical, no matter what, we are not gonna really be able to change the powers that be at this point. There's too much money involved, there's too much personal crap going on. We don't understand all of the we don't even, we're not even aware of all the inner workings of what's really going on. To me, it feels like a farce sometimes. And maybe this is just I just have so little faith.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

I don't have much faith actually, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:46

And it's also you probably feel like this way more than I do, but I don't want to speak for you, obviously. But I don't want to align with any group at all. No, I don't know. I don't want to just be defined, yeah, because I'm like, I am not gonna be misunderstood because I say I'm X, Y, and Z.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

Yeah, exactly. I've never even like where I live, they try to make you go in one, no matter what, one category or the other. And every time they send me it to try to do the one category or other, I just go other and give it. Yeah. I don't give them a reasoning, though they leave a little section for a reason for you two, and I just do other. I have never changed it.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

And that's what's frustrating because when I had to register to vote in a new state up in Illinois, when I where I voted for the first election between Trump and Hillary, in the pre-election, what's that called? I don't know. I used to know so much more. I was I used to be way more involved in politics eight years ago. And then the last primarily Trump's reign, I was like, this is I can't do this, I can't hear this man talk, I can't see this man speak, I can't see a flag, I just do it. It's horrible. It's horrible, yeah. And so I had, but in order to vote for which Democrat I wanted, I had to be registered as a Democrat. And I was like, why can't I have my partner, the whoever I think is the best Democrat, whoever I think is the best Republican. That way I'm not at least if my belief is here, at least maybe I get here. But now it's like we're either all the way over here or all the way over here, and then everyone in between is just we're just fighting constantly. It's like you're forced to pick a side. And I think I've thought about, I'm like, this is a really controversial thing to say, but I just feel like America is the greatest cult of them all. Something Amanda Montel said in her book was having big dreams makes you vulnerable. And I was like, that is so true because even in the acting world, just since I'm sent my life is centered around that, I've been in the acting community since I was 12 years old. Oh, wow. You're constantly being told that your dreams can come true if you come to my school of acting. We'll tell you how to book jobs. We have the secret to making your auditions better. We you'll definitely book more jobs if you come to our acting school. But nobody has any control over if they book a job or not. They can become a better actor, but there's gonna be one level of decision making, and then you get sent to producers, then you get sent to, or it's gonna be depending on the project, like casting director likes you, then they send you up the chain to the next level of approval, which could be the writer director, then they got it send to the producers, and that that got has to go to the network. So it's literally so many levels of approval among so many different people. I had a friend who did a movie with Kirsty Alley, and he was like, Yeah, she came with her Scientology entourage and was barely allowed to speak to anybody because they make they send actors to set with people who represent Scientology, but it's her entourage, and then you they're they keep them very separate from the other actors because they don't want you to get any type. It's information control, they don't want you to have any other type of outside information. My little sister is 11 and she makes legitimate art. And I'm just like, wow, that sounds not even as good as my little sister's art. Okay, I can only do eyes and noses.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

That was my ability and drawing.

SPEAKER_02 15:22

Those are hard. Something that you just said, actually. DM, which I'm assuming means divine masculine. You're talking about you or DM. And in occultish, we know that Amanda Montel's the linguist is that correct, the correct term, a linguist. She is a linguist, which I love that.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

I'm so happy she writes books. She's perfect for the field of art.

SPEAKER_02 15:43

I know. But she goes into, I think it's chapter three, okay, where she talks about the language of groups like Scientology and even Keith Rainier because she's talking about how this quote says the power of religious language is extremely dangerous and can be used to reinforce and strengthen beliefs, which must be confined to a limited ritual time in order to keep it health healthy and ethical. She goes on to say, I'm so sorry, I don't know what page this is on. It's okay. She says the language of Scientology is so legit sounding that it sparks a host of copycat cult leaders. Nexium founder Keith Renier lifted many terms straight from Scientology, like suppressive, which already has a negative connotation to it. And if you're a suppressive, you're basically speaking out against the cult. And so instead of just being like, oh, this person's bringing up a good question, they're like, you're a suppressive, and you're like, oh my God, I'm not trying to suppress anybody. The tech behind Nexium, which was just the brainwashing, and then of course the courses. But then what you reminded me of with DM was Scientology's vocabulary because when I was watching Scientology and watching the aftermath series with Leah Remini and Mike Rinder, who he was on a flight of mine once, and I freaked out. I was so excited because I was like, oh my gosh, it's Mike Rinder. And I was like, I don't know how who to tell that I just saw Mike Rinder. It's like I just saw Catherine Zita Jones. I don't know who to tell that would care as much as me right now because I hadn't really been very vocal about how excited, like how much research I was doing on cults four or five years ago. I was, it was just this little thing I was really interested in, a little hobby. So I was just like, I'm so excited and I want to tell somebody, but no one's gonna understand. But she always would say it's so hard trying to do this show because every time we try to talk about a concept in Scientology, we we always called it something else in the group. So then we have to put it into regular person terminology. And it's so hard to it's like a different language almost. And some of them are tons of acronyms and abbreviations. Like in Scientology, if a word can be shortened, they do it. So like ac is acknowledgement, cog is cognition, inval is invalidation, eval is evaluation, sup is a superior, our factor is reality factor, tech technology, sec security, e-meter, electro psychometer. It's just you learn all of these terms and you sound smarter because they sound like, oh, you're using the e-meter today. Oh, yes, I was in room 16 using the e-meter and I discovered my R factor, and then I went to my SUP so he could act my cog or whatever you would say. And you're like, what is this? What is this?

SPEAKER_00 18:40

But that's also what draws people in, at least if you even go back to since it can fall in line, since Scientology and Nexium are so similar to Twin Flames Universe, because Twin Flames Universe does take a lot from Nexium and Scientology. Like when I lived in Florida and was a driver when I was trying to recruit someone that I had in my car who is a Scientologist, by the way. I was driving her to the city.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

You were! Oh my god! How did I?

SPEAKER_02 19:11

So, yep, you got it. I just went there and I well, it's so creepy there because it's literally like a ghost town. It's like you go to Disney World where everything's painted a pastel color and has a beautiful sign and it's very pretty, but then there's nothing going on, it's so creepy.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

Florida, yeah, is not that exciting. And where I lived, like you just said clear water, because that's where I was. All right, do you need to put that out? I no, it's okay. Hey, you don't live there anymore. You didn't know, and I didn't know you knew, so that's a call out that was just meant to be.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

Oh, I'm such a nerd. I'm I'm already I would totally go see Traverse City if I was if I was in New York, I'd be like, I gotta go to Albany and see where it all happened. I'm such a history type of nerd where I'm like, I want to go see where this happened. And so I was going to Tampa with my mom, and she had these conferences she had to go to. She was doing a work trip, but I was just there for fun. So I had more free time. And so I would drop her off at her conference and I would be like, Where's the Scientology Center? And I was driving around, taking my videos, posting them on Instagram. Everyone's, what are you doing? I'm like, you guys don't understand that it's hearing about it and being like, This is absolutely wild that this is a group that's currently functioning. And then you go and see it functioning, you're like, everything that the whistleblowers have been saying is true. You start seeing all of the evidence for it, and I think that's what's really hard about when a cult is shut down, and it's strange with people still in twin flames, and it's strange with Nexium too. We have now so much media that's calling cults out, and there are excuse me, still people that believe in they're so deeply ingrained in it that they still believe Keith Rainier is an innocent man, even though he's gonna be in jail for the rest of his life. They still believe that Jeff and Shalia are these spiritual words of uh connections, links to God.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

Yeah, and continued to eventually it switched to other coaches doing the same thing that he was doing with you originally, because eventually two of his people that he trusted that weren't in the inner circle but in management positions enough of the way that he trusted would like I still have the sheet of when I got to be customer service manager of what my expectations were and how I was going to be tested, which I was tested within that week on that. So I would be up in the role, but they would see how well I would do with it. But I had to follow the expectations too, which I literally still have that sheet of paper that shows all of that. So, like when you're in a cult, there's a set of rules, which is brought up in both books, actually, a set of defined rules. Jeff and Shia. Are always changing their rules. So the more negativity that comes out, the more they change, and the more they let their inner circle know and their coaches know, hey, this is how it's going. Just like I feel so bad for the coaches that are going to the thing in June, because supposedly special guests of coaches are going to be there to help brainwash the rest of the way as you do things. But Jeff doesn't like it too noisy, so they're probably gonna end up doing humming. My very first meeting, at least with him, that's what it turned into was a humming of yoga, weird kundalini thing. Yeah. In New York, literally, he can't handle if you're happy and having a conversation and getting to know people that you've talked so long in a setting like this to. He couldn't handle it. He literally first yelled, shut up, and then had everyone sit, which we did. Everyone was shocked that whoa, who just said that? Oh, it was Jeff. So it was like a little miniature tantrum before even sitting and going, okay. And then we did little humming, and then we ended up doing card reading stuff of passing to each other. And he was okay with that. But if you're happy and getting to know people in person physically, because yes, I think personally you can still get to know a person this way too, and through text and writing. But yeah, that's a moment I never forgot.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

Good luck with your kid because it's gonna be loud, Jeff.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

I so scared poor Grace. So scared for Grace.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

I'm really nervous. Whatever the announcement's gonna be in the summer, I'm it just the way things are going, it just reminds me a lot of David Koresh. I feel like it's gonna be a lot of us versus them. We're the only way to create heaven on earth is to come to our utopia here in Traverse City. And we are seeing terrible things happen in the world. So someone who's in the group and is we're all seeing all over the world awful things. It feels like the world is such a dark place sometimes. So, of course, you're gonna be like, Yeah, he's right. It is scary out there. Bad things are happening out there. So it's no wonder if people don't understand how people get sucked in. But it's on some level, there the evidence is there. Yeah, the world is scary. There's a lot of terrible stuff happening out there. Why not stay safe in this cocoon of people that are talking about falling in love? Like, why not pull the veil down and be like, I'm just gonna be in my bubble and I don't want to be aware of the scary stuff and I don't want to be involved. We were just talking about Trump. I've deaths gotten there where it's I don't even want him in my field of vision. I want to pretend I don't know he exists after that election and Biden became president. I was like, and I'm done with pol. I can't even pay attention anymore. Yeah, never keep going. Now I'm just dreading the next year. So it's yeah, I'm totally like, yeah, things are messed up right now. But at the same time, I think things have always just been messed up. We just know more about it now because we have more access to information.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

Thankfully, unless you're in a cult, that's even part of the bite model and part of being a leader is information control, which you absolutely can control it. I know Jeff, it's more of mods. That's your job as a mod is to delete any comments that Jeff or Shelia doesn't like, but you don't have to ask them. They already have the bulletin of rules of what to look for.

SPEAKER_02 25:15

But when the when a lot of people were flooding the open forum and talking about it being a cult, I think they flagged a bunch of words where if you asked a question, it would just get automatically deleted. If you asked the wrong question or made the wrong comment, it would get automatically deleted. But we see that too in other the internet having algorithms, it keeps you in one line of thinking. And sometimes it's good, but there are times where it discourages you, even doing what I'm doing. And I I don't want to look up stuff about Trump because I don't want to get fed stuff about Trump from the Trump side of things. They talk about the wrong side of TikTok. I somehow got to the wrong side of TikTok. No one wants to get on that side of TikTok. So it's like it keeps us from wanting to seek out the other information, even if we're just doing it for research for a video, even if we're just trying to understand a different point of view. Influencers also do the same thing with their comments, they'll flag certain words, and if it's comes up in a comment, it immediately is hidden because they don't want you calling them out for stealing someone else's work or for exposing a lie about someone else. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, it's it's like on one hand, the internet is so great, we can learn so much, but on the other hand, it's really scary how much misinformation is out there that's being pumped out intentionally to be just to get views. People say some of the craziest stuff just to get views.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

It absolutely is. There are times that I trust people automatically, but that's because they've proven that already. And I did watch your video about your story too, just so you know. I watched it fully through. So I know all about that. Okay. I don't mean to bore you with retelling my story. Oh, you're not boring me. It's nice to get that perspective because you didn't fully go into that. You only talked about the initial going in and then letting your friends know at the end when oh, hey, I think we're in a cold, let's not do this.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

And that was still years ago, and I still feel rigid. It's almost, and I'm just piecing this together as we're talking because sometimes I do have a problem with authority. If someone wants me to do something and I just don't, even if it's a stupid law, I'm like, I don't believe in that law, so I don't care if I break it. And that's just going five miles over the speed limit. This is too slow for this road, and I don't care if I go fast. Yeah. Stupid little things like that. But David'll, or my fiance's name's David, he'll point out you just have a problem with authority. And now I'm like, I think it's because I've had so many moments where people have my instinct has wanted to do something, and someone else has shut that instinct down, whether it was a person in the cult or a romantic person or a parental figure, or just these moments where I've been like excited about something, or I have an impulse to do something, and they make me feel like that's the wrong thing. And so now I'm very much anyone tells me to do something I don't want to do, I'm not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Actually, in my job that I am still at today, which I'm probably at that job still, like when I first got out of the cults, it was so hard for me to fully follow authority. I was officially fully against any authority, so I was officially against anyone who was in a higher position than me at the job I'm at. And it definitely showed I had to work through a lot, but a lot of it was still on my own. I didn't have besides my therapist, which she doesn't fully count because she never told me the cult she was in. So I have no idea that she always did comparisons to her cult, but she never said what her cult was. That's why she got into being a cultist, just like Dr. Lelynch and Stephen Hassan bringing up in the beginning of his being in Moon's cult. But I didn't have what I do have now, which I didn't realize how much I was actually craving that understanding of, oh yeah, I get that. Oh yeah, that's true. I didn't have that. I had no one to talk to with that therapist again doesn't count because she couldn't relate to that and she didn't tell me again the cult she was in, which would have helped with relating.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

But so you think that would have helped? Would you have researched that group and tried to see similarities and stuff?

SPEAKER_00 29:18

Absolutely, because I'm a person that researches everything naturally. That was a part of me that was used a lot in the cult because I do research naturally, that's a part of who I am. I will do a lot of research on things, and yeah, it's so important, and that even falls into community and bringing someone into a cult is you crave that just having an understanding because you don't realize, like with me, I didn't realize how much an ex-member can relate to you because you're also an ex-member and you have information other people don't have, you have understandings of the inner workings that other people don't have unless it's been made public, but there still isn't a full under well, sometimes there is you're one that's an exception so far on that. But there's people that can't fully relate, so it's yeah, it's hard when you don't have that need or want, especially when you're out of a cult and never received that, and then you suddenly get that because every single member, besides the one I just recently started talking to, had that. They had that ex-member and they were already buddy, but I had the mistrust so high it took me forever. And even for them, they had that mistrust too, but not in the same way I did, since they already had ex-members they trusted. So there's also that plays in. And just the fact when I joined the cult, I also was still craving that also of just having an understanding of being a child of special needs. And I was in the closet at the time, being part of the queer community, just finding that understanding, which I found there at TFU at first.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

And then they exploited that feeling of safety, yes, they absolutely did. Which I think is one of the most were one of the worst, one of the reasons why this cult is so terrible to me, because it's such an exploitation of gaining every cult, does it, but they do such an insidious job. They do it in such an insidious way where they're like, We're gonna tell you how much we love you and value you and make you feel so safe. It's just next level.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

Yeah, and even on your personal, like, for example, with your two videos, they would ask you to do advertising for them on your YouTube videos. Because if you were doing that, you would be giving to God and you'd be giving to your harmonious twin flame union. So anything you did for Jeff and Chilea would be giving to that. Oh, and you'd be repenting too. So there's a lot that people don't get in the manipulation process that happens in gaslighting too, because easily you can just do the mirror exercise and gaslight yourself to believe every word they're saying.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

And that's a cult tactic too, especially like we see it in Scientology, where you're supposed to sit in a room and read these, you have to read their books for total understanding and write down what does the word it's like linguistics, and it'll be like, okay, define what the word the means. And you're like, the okay, the and if you don't come up with an appropriate definition of that word or of or all of these words that are like just connecting transition words, right? It's not what's the definition of, I don't know, uh, ice. I'm looking at my cup of water, or define water versus the. And it's you need to come up with a word or with a definition that is acceptable to the cult. And in doing so, your whole language starts getting redefined, and the way you communicate to yourself, it all becomes internalized. So now you're brainwashing yourself, but you think you're growing spiritually, but really you're just brainwashing yourself with the definitions and the ideologies that the group is wanting you to embrace.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

And it's like relearning a language, it is because cult does have their own language in general. Even if you watch videos from Twin Flames Universe, anyone follower-wise, they speak gibberish most of the time. Like when I was in it, I was like, woo, and understood it. Now that I've been out of it for so long, I go, This is gibberish. How did anyone understand this? How does anyone understand this?

SPEAKER_02 33:22

Even looking at the schedule for their summit coming up, it's like today we'll have workshops on topics. That's true.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

I didn't think of it that way at first.

SPEAKER_02 33:31

Awesome. What topics? Topics on abundance and joy and love. Those are topics. Tell me the title. I've gone to conferences and summits and stuff before. And the workshop will there'll be a title, a description, and the teacher. I wouldn't, I wouldn't say what is this about? What is it about?

SPEAKER_00 33:51

Yeah, they leave nothing, everything's open.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

Like, I bet people read this run-on sentence, this fluffy language, and they're like, Oh my god, they just see, oh, we're gonna learn about abundance and we're gonna discover joy and hear about heaven on earth. And isn't that so nice and lovely? You're so ingrained in the cult that feels like something when really nothing is being said at all. Even listening to some of the clips in the docuseries, I was like, What if what is Jeff trying to say here? What are they saying now? And what and also they're quoting themselves, but it'll be something someone said that's like a great philosopher, but they'll change like two words.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

Yep, you got it.

SPEAKER_02 34:31

Shale's quote, she quotes herself as saying, When one of us is oppressed, we're all oppressed. And I'm like, Did Martin Luther King say that?

SPEAKER_00 34:38

Maya Angelo said that.

SPEAKER_02 34:40

Maya Angelo said that's who said that. And even and I was like, Okay, maybe they're just trying that wasn't Shalia who said it's just it makes me be like, You guys think the people reading this are stupid? You guys think your followers are dumb because followers aren't they're not, they're not questioned constantly, and then they're and they both authors of the books today talk about that. How that's true, they break you down, and then they just so that they can build you up. It starts off with love bombing, and then maybe you start questioning a couple things, then they'll break you down, but then they're the way to build you back up. And I think luckily for me, that's how I got out of my group because I had started getting to the point where I was like, I'm feeling more powered, I'm feeling like I am standing up for myself now. And then they had to break me down because I was getting too, I was getting too confident, I was getting too excited about I'm creating boundaries and standing up for myself. And they're like, we have to put her down. And so then they triggered me. And that's what um, but that's what got me out of the group was because I was like, why would they do that? Don't they want me to feel like good about myself? Don't aren't I here so that I learn tools so that people don't keep taking advantage of my kindness? Like, why am I supposed to have boundaries with everybody else except for this leader? And so that's what really snapped me out of it. I was just like, who the hell does she think she is triggering me like this? I just told her what my trigger is, and then she triggered me literally five minutes later. And then after that, I was like, oh there you go, go Aaron.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

That's true for each cult leader. I at least feel that, but I also feel like at least with today's culture, which Amanda Montel does bring that up, besides us misusing the term cult, but at least in today's culture, we have actually so many influencers that are becoming cult leaders themselves. Influencers, actors. There's a lot of people within that field of layers, so you don't have to be in Scientology to do that. You don't have to be in anything, you can literally just be an influencer, you can just be on Twitch, you can be a cult leader. Jeff is literally on Twitch, so you can be anywhere. It doesn't matter. I tried to use an example even on the podcast I was on of you could literally walk out your door and there's a cult. It's that simple. Or it could be within your home already a cult, it's everywhere. And we actually aren't fully educated enough because we don't have enough cultists and enough people talking about it and bringing up facts. Yes, there's education on gaslighting, but like you said, there's misinformation too on gaslighting, or it's a buzzword, just like narcissist.

SPEAKER_02 37:23

Everyone, every ex you've had just because they it was a bad breakup, that doesn't mean they're a narcissist. A narcissist is an actual diagnosis disease. Like you have to get professional diagnosis on it. But it's such a buzzword that people use it for just anyone they don't like. And that's when we're non-specific, where things start to get a little dangerous. And back to your point and Amanda's point about influencers, it gets down to there are certain podcasts I listen to where they give their listeners a cute little name. And oh, we're all a part of whatever club. And it's okay now, just calling followers of the church of union unionists, you're an influencer. Oh, and now you're selling merch so that everyone can know you're a part of the petty squad or whatever. So you're also trying to get everyone to dress the same, and you're also not taking accountability when you we people say, Oh, cancel culture is a thing. Sometimes that's just accountability culture because you're not taking accountability, and that's when it's now we got to cancel you because you obviously don't know that this is wrong.

SPEAKER_00 38:29

Yes, and sadly, those who are cult leaders are even influencers because Jeff and Shlia do fall under. They were influencers first before they followed into that. And there's other influencers I know there's docuseries on too that did pretty much the same exact thing, Jeff and Shlia, or but Amanda brought one up that I had followed, and I'm trying to look at my notes.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

I don't think I wrote it down, but it was Benito something. That's a funny name, though. I I remember it because one of his survivors went on a little bit culty and they kept calling him Bento Box.

unknown 39:03

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

But he was like a cool, he's like a cool young hip dude, and he's redefining what spirituality is for a lot of people. He promotes smoking and cigars and drinking, and so if you're kind of like a frat boy who's looking for a spiritual practice, he's the guy for you. But he's really terrible to women, and he's done all of these really obscene, scary things, and he's an influencer. When influencers wield a lot of power, they do, absolutely. And it's important to ask them questions and call them out and or call them in, maybe is a better way to phrase that. And I don't know, I just again it comes back to us being in a great period of time in history because we are able to learn so much, but also it's so easy to just take everything at face value and then let your whole identity change because you are following the same influencer all the time who's pumping out the same message. Amanda even talks about MLMs.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

Yes, she does.

SPEAKER_02 40:06

If you look at the tactic, the ML, you will see every MLM hun, no matter what the company is, they will use the same tactics, the same language, the same sales pitch. In every I can tell by anyone's post that they're in an MLM, and it's almost to the point where I can guess what MLM that is.

SPEAKER_00 40:27

That's impressive, honestly.

SPEAKER_02 40:29

Because I've seen it so many times, and it's almost always the same. This vague, do you want to change your life? I went from this way to this way, and I'm so happy now. DM me to find out more. Oh, you must be a beach body hun. You want to sell some type of coaching program.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

And most MLMs, funny enough, have a coaching program of some kinds, whether they call it coach, like Nexium. I'm trying to remember what they called theirs. They were a coach, but there was like some title in front of that.

SPEAKER_02 40:58

Yeah, the sashes, too.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_02 41:00

The colors, yeah, it's just working your way. I think in some MLMs they call it diamond and Ruby, and that means you're working your way up the pyramid, basically. You have more people under you, and it was the same with Nexium. And I was always curious, I was gonna text you about this. Actually, is it the structure of TFU and the coaches versus the recruiting?

SPEAKER_00 41:21

Because the coaches don't make money, and that's just like Nexium, though, because even Sarah Edmondson in her, which I'm still finishing that in her book, she brings up the fact that she was only paid and only made enough to keep the place she was renting at the time to recruit people. In our case, we have Zoom meetings, and Jeff would up the ante each time to you only have 30 minutes to do this, you only have five minutes. There was fishing part one and two, where you're taught how to make a sale, which was so uncomfortable for me in general because I don't like selling stuff to people. That's never been a thing of mine, even in retail. I didn't like it at all. I would avoid it at all costs. So I hated approaching people at the front door.

SPEAKER_02 42:03

When I go into a shop and someone's hey, how are you? I'm like, Oh my gosh, just let me look around the store.

unknown 42:07

That's what I do too.

SPEAKER_02 42:09

And I remember they'd be like, You have to go greet them within 10 seconds. And I wanted to be like, Nobody wants you to do that. Literally, nobody wants you to go say hi to them when they just I don't care about your sale. I can see the sign about the sale. I don't need to be here, but I just now I want to leave.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

Yeah, exactly. And we were actually pushed into our role was, I guess, my managing roles where the most pushing happens.

SPEAKER_02 42:32

It reminds me of it. Did you watch the documentary Fire Festival?

SPEAKER_00 42:35

I didn't hear button.

SPEAKER_02 42:37

It's F Y R E. This guy, he was like trying to be a New York socialite, and then he got all these investors to pay money and he was going to put on this festival, but he kept long story short, and this might not be hyper accurate because it's been a while since I watched it, but essentially my understanding is he kept over-promising stuff and would under-anticipate the price of it. So then he would have to sell something else to make up for how he had messed up his earlier promise. So then when people got to this festival, there were like not enough places for people to sleep. There wasn't enough food for people. But he had kept getting people to invest because he kept promising this idea of what it was and what the potential was. And it feels like that's what Jeff and Chalia have done is oh, we bought our fancy car. Okay, now we're actually we've way overextended. Now we have to plan out another scam to pay for our previous scam. And now we have to come up with a new scam to pay for our previous one.

SPEAKER_00 43:35

Yeah, you got it. And change the narrative. That's why right now we're still apparently the abusers and other things. They've had lots of nice things. Yeah, apparently. So apparently, if you've been abused, you are psychology wise, that can actually happen. But apparently, if you leave a cult, you're automatically an abuser, and we're horrible to Jeff and Shlia.

SPEAKER_02 43:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 43:55

Which good luck with that. They're not gonna find anything unless they make it themselves. Which they're not gonna do it. They might have their followers do it, but that's literally the only way it would work. But sorry, go ahead. I was just gonna say that in the past, a couple ex-members, so it was on Trey's channel, they talked and they do take advice from ex-members too without saying it. If it serves them. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 44:20

So whenever you see a positive article, it is probably paid for by them. Some sometimes I want to talk about what can get a cult taken down, and then I'm like, but I don't know if we should publicize that because then they'll stop doing the things that are illegal that could potentially take them down. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 44:37

That's just the which worried me when it was first posted. The true crime professional, which to me that wasn't very professional of him to do on a news station to announce that, because the whole point or any authority figure, I'm gonna overthink it.

SPEAKER_02 44:53

If it's an active investigation, there's certain sensitive information that you don't want out in the public because you don't want the culprit to know what your tactic is or knowing.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

Yeah, and that was their local channel. So to me, that logically makes no sense. That's some stuff I've at least learned behind the scenes some of this stuff. And through some of my own doing of what I'm doing behind the scenes, I've learned a lot of how to report because I've done some reporting of my own, but sadly you can do the reporting, but you never hear from the people you're reporting to. There's others doing the same thing too, but you're not gonna ever hear from them because again, the point is to be under the radar.

SPEAKER_02 45:34

Yeah. It just it's so funny too, because it just sounds, of course, they get to the point where they don't have to work as much because they have volunteers doing it, but the tracking and the mental stress, I feel like, of being, I don't know, I guess that at that point being in power and having people wanting to be a part of your group would make it more valuable and the money that you're making. But it just sounds so exhausting to me to be a cult leader.

SPEAKER_00 46:01

She even stated saying that the cult leaders actually in her recent video, which I was gonna post, but I know on IG at least it's gonna cut off the part where it explains that those following aren't crazy people. But she stated saying, no, actually, cult leaders want people that work because they're the lazy ones, not the people that are following them. They're the hardworking, intelligent. She had a lot of compliments, but she herself was also indoctrinated. I don't know which cult she was in, like Stephen Hassan opened it. She's in a political cult, like a democratic political cult.

SPEAKER_02 46:34

I did not know. Yeah, I think she tells her story on her interview with I'm trying to remember if this is where I heard it or if it was her own thing, but I think it was on Sarah Nippy's podcast.

SPEAKER_00 46:45

Oh, okay. And thank you, Erin, so much for having me for being on my YouTube channel. It was great just talking between friends. And until we possibly do it again, possibly not, who knows? Embrace your truth, tell your story. Thanks for being here, everyone. Till next time. Bye. Peace. Thanks so much for being here, everyone. Uh, I hope you enjoyed this episode with many more to come. If you'd like to help support and grow the podcast and even the YouTube channel, please not only follow, like, subscribe, but please leave a review on Spotify, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, or anywhere you listen to this podcast. Thanks so much for being here. Until next week on Wednesday at 7 a.m. Mountain Standard Time. Peace. Catch you later.