Queer Voices, Unheard Stories: Rebecca Thorne Author & Natalie Naudus Voice Actor

In this episode of Jessis Stories: Unheard Voices, host Jessi Hersey sits down with two queer authors who are redefining what it means to tell authentic stories. First, bestselling fantasy author Rebecca Thorne (Can't Spell Treason Without Tea) shares her journey from rejection to indie publishing success, the power of sapphic representation in fiction, and the realities of the book industry. Then, audiobook narrator and debut author and Voice Actor Natalie Naudus opens up about her novel Gay the Pray Away — a fictionalized account of growing up queer in a conservative Christian homeschooling cult, and how libraries and literature helped shape her worldview. A raw, honest, and inspiring conversation about identity, survival, and the stories we need to tell.

Artwork By: Zummi

Music By: AJ music group

Lyrics By: Jessi Hersey

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Listening to voices, stories can be strange. It's good to open up to new stories and finding backstories of how people came to be only to free the mind of what blinds us with only a glance gives us a chance to see people, be who they truly are, from silent voices to shining light. Stories that inspire awareness and change. I welcome you to Jesse's Stories, unheard voices.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Yeah, hi everybody. My name is Rebecca Thorne. I am a USA Today, indie bound and Sunday Times bestseller. And all those are pretty recent, so that's exciting. I am the author of the Cozy Fantasy Quartet, the Tones and Tea Quartet, the first of which is called Can't Spell Treason Without Tea, and then moves into A Pirate's Life for Tea, which will be out in October of 2024. There are two more books that are coming out in 2025. The entire series will be done by August of 2025, which is very fast for traditional publishing, but very exciting. I also write mostly, I write mostly Sapphic or LGBT stories. So I have a couple self-published books that feature Sapphic characters, asexual characters. And then I wrote a craft book called The Five Sentence Method. If you're an author who's interested in learning about story structure, so I'm all over the place. I do a lot of things, but I've been in the publishing space for a decade and I love talking about publishing and writing to pretty much anyone who will listen. Thank you for that intro. My first question is, are you a DD fan? I wish that I was. I really wish that I was because I feel like I would really love it. But the problem is that I have worked my entire career as a flight attendant. So my schedule varies month by month. I never have consistent days off. Some weekends I may be free, some weekends I won't be. So getting a group of DD players together and taking hours on one day every week or every other week was pretty much an impossibility for me and can and still probably is. So just because of the time commitment, I'm not, although I do think that I really would love it. So I play video games instead. I like that a lot, honestly.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

Yeah. Let's see. What inspired you to originally to write Can't Spell Treason Without Tea?

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Legends and Lattes was my main inspiration for Can't Spell Treason Without Tea. I know anybody who follows me has probably heard this before, but I used to be pursuing, I used to be like pretty decently entrenched in the traditional publishing space. So for anybody who's unaware, if you're not a writer, there's typically two paths that most people will take to publication. And it's the traditional route where you go with a publisher at one of the big five houses in New York or a mid-level press that's somewhere else in the country. Or it's self-publishing where you might go with, like you might put your own book on Amazon or Ingram Spark and distribute it yourself, basically. And they're both very interesting paths, but maybe 10 years ago, self-publishing wasn't as big or as accessible as it is now. Like the pandemic changed a lot in the ways of accessibility. So when I first started publishing, I moved into traditional publishing and got a literary agent and was on submission with these publishers in New York. And that just didn't really work for me. Like there was a lot of books that just kind of died on submission. I've written, like Treason was my 15th book that I've written. And I think I got my literary agent with like book number 11. There were like four books in the middle that just didn't go anywhere. They didn't really do anything. A lot of people just rejected, rejected. And I just got tired of it, I think. So I was able to, I picked up Legends and Lattes. I joined TikTok. I knew this book because I'd seen it all over TikTok. When I found it in a Barnes and Noble, that was like this moment that unlocked my brain where it was like, oh, you can self-publish and still get into bookstores. And I didn't think that was a possibility before that point. So it unlocked this entire world for me where I was like, holy crap. So I started writing my own cozy fantasy. I left my literary agent. I worked over the summer to promote the book. And then I self-published Treason in September of 2022. So it was a very long process that was just a lot of self-discovery, I think, and exploring what publication path was actually best for me, even though I had thought previously that traditional was the best path for me. And now obviously a lot of people don't even know that I self-published this book because it was picked up by a traditional press in New York retroactively, which was weird. It was like the minute I stopped chasing that dream, it all fell into place for me, which was strange. But I still do have a like a big fondness. I still do self-publish. I think that the indie space is wonderful. And I am a big fan of both of them now. I like to talk about both publishing paths. I think they're both interesting.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Yes, that's very true too. And vanity too, which is a combination of self-publishing and publishing house. At least I have just a vanity.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

I mean, I have I have opinions on vanity presses. Yeah, like most of them will there are vanity presses that will prey on authors all day long, but they'll charge, they'll tell you that the only way to get your book published is by charging, by you paying them $10,000 or $14,000. And I've heard astronomical numbers like that, where you pay $14,000 and you get your book quote unquote published, but they don't have any better distribution than an indie author would on their own. So it's very difficult to justify like why would you pay somebody $14,000 when you could do it literally on your own dime and maybe pay a cover artist, an editor, and the and buy your ISBNs and pay $1,800 on your on your own. And then you get to own the book on the back end and you can put it in the exact same channels that this publisher would that would be charging you $14,000. So the basic rule in publishing for anybody watching is if you are being charged money, it is an ingenuous, like a disingenuous press. They are trying to scam you. So run away. Red flags. I'm like the red flag guy running around with that big red flag on TikTok. And then also I need to get my own little red flag, to be honest. I feel like I could just wave it around.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

Honestly, they also have movie deals that people do that are also scamming you on your books that people should be aware of because I feel the same way about vanity. I have actually an equal amount of background. I've been traditionally published is when I started, and then I went to self-publishing and have stuck with it since.

SPEAKER_03 6:45

But yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

There's a lot of movie people that try to reach out that aren't actual movie people have been in it. So I know what actually happens and they reach out to you. You don't pay any upf. That's a red flag automatically if they talk fees. And if the fact that they won't leave you alone and call you constantly or email you constantly, that's a scam. There is a little adjustment in some aspects of the movie industry that, yeah, they might email you, but there shouldn't be a fee within the email in the first place.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

And that's exactly it. Like when you look at like a couple months ago, there was this drama going around on TikTok where this person had received a phone call from a publisher basically off saying that they loved it and then rejecting it on the phone call. And the second I watched that video, I was like, this is not how it works because these publishers do not have the time. First off, they're not going to be working with someone who doesn't have a literary agent unless you're like this insanely best-selling indie author. If you have thousands of sales with your with your ebook in the span of a couple of months, they might work directly with you. But other than that, they will be going through your literary agent or a literary agent to try and get in touch with you. And it just, they will never call you. I don't think I've talked to my publisher on the phone. And I have a really good publisher in New York. I don't think I've talked to them on the phone ever. Like I really don't think. I think I might have gotten on one phone call from an edit letter a couple of years ago, like a year ago. But for the most part, it's communication over email and it goes through your agent. Like most, you know, most initial communication starts through your agent. And then once they've packed the contract together, then they'll loop you in. But yeah, like a publisher will not call you. They're not going to call you and reject you personally. An agent will not call you and reject you personally. If they're doing that, it's a scam. They're trying to get something from you. And it could be money or it could be something just as valuable, which is your intellectual property. So your novel is has value. If your novel is something that you've worked very hard on, you've created something. And the fact of the matter is that it's always easier to try and grab something that someone else has created rather than create something themselves. That's just, it's an easier path. So always be aware to anybody watching this video, always be aware of if it smells fishy, it's fishy. Talk to your author friends and be like, is this something that happens? And when they all inevitably say no, walk away. No, like you'll save yourself a lot of heartbreak and a lot of money if you could just walk away.

SPEAKER_02 9:05

Yes, absolutely. And just so you know, it's 1117. If you want me to really Oh no, it's no, it's 10 seven.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Oh no, I'm sorry. Oh, I'm so sorry. Oh, I'm so lost in time. No, I have another hour. I'm good. I'm sorry. No, I'm sorry. No, I meant when I said 117. I would better just get on a 10-minute phone call with you this morning. Okay. No, I have I'm sorry. I'm an hour behind you, so I have an extra hour before I needed before I needed to. No, you're good. Okay. I have no concept of time. Okay, thank goodness. So we're allowed to go off topic. Yeah. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 9:37

Yeah, we can go off. Like, absolutely dive in. Because that was a good one. Because there are not only for publishers agents, but like I was talking about if they're trying to take your book to turn it into a movie or docuseries or series. I've had countless ones before actually getting on Escaping Twin Flames on Netflix.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:56

But that was only because I was in a cult, but there's still a book coming out of it. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Yeah, it's the movie stat, I don't think hits the fantasy realm too much. And like the fantasy authors that I know of, most of us have not been contacted for movie anything, TV, anything. But the publishers, God, you're an indie author, you get email after email. Oh, yeah. We know how to publish your book. We know how to market your book. We can, or like the Instagram or TikTok follower count scams where they're like, we can double your following in a day. And it's like, no. But what kind of following would that be? Like, like if my followers have been very steadily rising with a couple bumps here when things go viral. But if it had jumped from this to this, all of these followers in the middle would be bots, probably. Like, yeah, okay, it makes the number look impressive, but where's the engagement in your videos? Are is there actually a community there, or is it just bots pretending?

SPEAKER_02 10:45

Yeah, it's hard. Even on Twitch or anywhere, really, you can get bots. Yeah, even on YouTube too. But then you also get people that seem like bots but are actual people, but it's hard to tell the difference sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Yeah, I think the internet is gonna be going that way in a lot of directions, especially now that AI is becoming so easy to access, like prevalent. I do think that there's gonna be very interesting. I'll be interested to see how it goes because I feel like AI, if it's used in the way that I was expecting it would be, and I don't know if that's going to happen or not, because it hasn't really happened yet. But for a while I was like, oh, this is the end of social media. Because if everybody you're talking to could be an AI, why would you even bother wasting your time to get online? Like, why would you not just go to a physical location and meet people in person? This could be the end of social media at that point. If a half of these accounts end up being disingenuous people, pretend people. I wouldn't be on Instagram if half the accounts I followed were not real people. I wouldn't care. It's all about the community for me.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

Exactly. Community is important, but do keep in mind that's what cults use. Anything you talk about, I've heard you talk about my cult I was in use, like literally the emails you've gotten, because I do follow you on I would say all your socials. Yeah, I only have two.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

I like on all of them, but I do TikTok and I do Instagram, and I don't really do anything else in between.

SPEAKER_02 12:00

That's what I've noticed, at least. You do post if you post first, at least on TikTok, I've seen Instagram.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

But yeah, I will usually just copy and paste because there are some people that aren't on TikTok at all. And there's a lot of people that aren't on Instagram at all. So I just and then it's interesting because certain posts will do better on each platform depending on what the content is. Like for TikTok, those short, stupid videos get very viral very quickly. But on Instagram, the more informational videos tend to be watched better and get more views. And then it and then there are some random ones where it's oh wow, that hit 400,000 views on Instagram and 50,000 views on TikTok. And I'm like, what was the difference? It's the same video, it just I think it just depends on the algorithm and who catches it first and whether or not they're super engaged from the very beginning. Tough to say.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

I know with Sammy, she said it's based off of pay. So for those that are paying into Instagram, your posts are more likely to be viewed if you already have a bigger following. You're gonna get the views and the follows and the other.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

Yeah, the the first like probably 2,000 or 3,000 followers took a long time, like I mean, it probably took me six months to get like 3,000 followers. And I was very pleased with 3,000 because it when I was on Twitter, I was on it for years. And I think the highest I ever got on Twitter was like 2,100 followers. Um, and then I went on TikTok, and the fact that I could get to 3,000 in like six months was wild to me. But then it all it all again just kind of comes down to what kind of videos go viral, how fast are you willing to, you know, put them out, like how consistently can you put out content and how long are you willing to do that consistently? And it's just it's just hard, you know, it's just tough to say.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

That's true. I know with me I haven't been consistent except for on YouTube so far. That's about it.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

Yeah, that's good because YouTube is the one place that I'm trying to be consistent and absolutely can't because of the editing. It just takes too long. It's like I don't have the I don't have the bandwidth to do tick or to do uh YouTube the way that I can do like the quick videos and TikTok and Instagram.

SPEAKER_02 13:54

Understandable. Well, with me, I do have an editing team. I will be moving over to a different editing team by the end of the month, but nice. I use an editing team because I do have multiple jobs during the day and uh I try to make this work no matter what. Yeah, most time it's just Friday, Saturday, and Sunday are my free days, but I do my best. So far, it's been working out. During the summer, I have holidays.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

I've got a lot of like deadline, like since I've moved into writing full time, my deadlines have been very fluid. So, like, and I've always worked weekends, like I've been I work weekends, I work holidays. Like as a flight attendant, those are prime time, right? Like we don't get the summer off, we work harder in the summer, and we don't get Christmas off, we work harder over Christmas. So, like that has been my mindset for a decade. So now that I am writing almost full time and I only fly a little bit, it really is kind of like when I'm on deadline, I'll work seven days a week for four weeks straight if I need to, you know, and then I'll take a month off. Like, like it really just kind of depends on how my schedule works. So, like I was trying to take the summer off because I did my book tour for treason in May. Um, I had a couple events in June, and then my birthday, and I was like, okay, I'm gonna take all of July off. And then a bunch of stuff happened in July that was like this didn't feel like a vacation for me. And then I was like, okay, well, August is gonna be my call month. And then I got like three books under deadline now that I'm like, I'm not gonna have time to work on them, you know. So it's just again, it's just kind of like I'll get a I'll get a month off at some point, but like who knows when that's going to be.

SPEAKER_02 15:15

Yeah, I definitely know how that feels. With me, it's just getting in the writing because I don't have at least that opportunity right now. That's why I have editors because I don't have the time to edit, really upload, tell them what to do, leave, try to get writing in. I'm still working on that. Understandable. I can't, I'm trying to learn TikTok editing because I love TikTok, but I hate that there's a ban. So I'm hoping it's not gonna affect in January too much.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

I don't think it's gonna do too much. I mean, I don't know. I feel like they've been like since I've been on TikTok, they've been talking about banning that platform, you know. Like, like it just I don't really know. I don't know. I'll believe it when I see it. You know, until then I'm kind of like doomsday's happening everywhere, who knows? Doomsday has been happening since like the 2000s. If I'm yeah, I'm just tired, you know. I'm like, uh, I'll keep even the platform as long as it's a platform, but I have I did couple with my Instagram following for that reason. But at the same time, Instagram, like I only have 11,000 followers on Instagram, I have 45,000 on TikTok. Um just kind of depends, you know. I don't I don't know. Maybe YouTube if TikTok goes away, but who knows?

SPEAKER_02 16:19

I know a lot of people are moving over to YouTube because of TikTok, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

With me has better monetization options, like you can make more money off your videos on YouTube, but again, like the barrier, you know, it's it's a different, it's a different platform, it's a completely different situation. Like I'd have to learn the culture of YouTube in the way that I know the culture of TikTok.

SPEAKER_02 16:39

So it's pretty similar culture, it's just one you have to go over 10 minutes versus the other, you don't necessarily, but you can.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

Yeah, I I usually specialize in like three to four minute videos. Um, so like talking for 10 would feel like a lot for me, but I could do it. I I don't know. We'll see. Anyway, get back to the questions. Okay, I'm sure this conversation probably won't be necessary, but no, don't worry.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

You also have the chance to review over it too. Okay. So there's that. How did you build and make the world of I'm probably gonna say it wrong? Shapara, dragon country, the queendom, the elm null, and the realm overall.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Yeah. Um, so for anybody listening, I pronounce it Shapara. Um, yeah, and the Queendom. But but again, like I don't really care how people pronounce, like once the book is out, it's not really my choice anymore, in my opinion. Um, so like I know a lot of people, like I've always pronounced it as kianth, key anth, um, but I know a lot of people will do kianth or kianthe. It is what it is, you know. Like it doesn't really matter to me, like if that's how you prefer to pronounce it. So yeah, I mean, when it comes down to world building in those kinds of places, like I'm actually a little embarrassed because I feel like the tomes and tea world was very basic world building for me. Um, like I do think that I actually did much better world building in this book. Wait, this book. Um, oh my god, can I figure it out? That this book, um, This Gilded Abyss, I think had much more interesting world building than um anything in the tomes and tea world. And that was simply because I wrote Tomes and Tea very quickly and I wanted it to be like familiar comfort for me. So I went with the white default of medieval Europe, right? Like, like it was, I didn't put a lot of thought into it because I didn't expect it to go as big as it did, and I regret that now. I will say I think books two, three, and four were kind of a passion project of mine to expand the world that I put in place in treason because I don't think that it's as intricate or interesting. Um, so I spent a lot of time world building, like amping up the world building in in subsequent books in order to make it feel more complete. So there's like inner politics between the kingdoms later on, you know, there's like like a whole like book four is all about the magic system, um, book three is all about the dragons, you know, and stuff like that. So, so like it kind of like dives into how those things all kind of play in with each other. But yeah, I mean, for the most part, I knew that I wanted to have a very strict, stringent, violent kingdom that Reina could come from that's very like based in duty and like, you know, respect for your royals and things like that. And then I knew that I wanted to have a come like a country that was kind of opposite of that, right? Like not like that, you know, um, something that was a little more like loosey-goosey. They had, you know, more of a like a democra democratic council in theory. And then when it came to deciding with Lionel, I didn't really expand on them in the first book, but they they have a much bigger role in book three. Um, and so Lionol is like merit-based, like university-based. So their leaders are like the top professors at their university and they cycle depending on who can prove that they have more knowledge that can help the country as a whole. Um, so like it's not so much of like an elected thing where there's like lords that like go to a council. It's like a constant rolling basis of like professors at this university that is their capital. Um, and then everybody is like everything about Lyonol is centered around learning and expanding your knowledge into a lot of different ways and then picking like a specialization and like contributing to society with that specialization. So so yeah, it was it's it's it's a cool place. Um, I do wish that I'd done a little more with it in the beginning. Um, but I again like I really didn't expect anybody to read. Like I was like, oh, maybe maybe I'll get like, you know, like like I was like, if I could make like $500 extra a month off this self-published book, that'd be great. And then before I knew it, I was making enough to quit my job. And I was like, what? Like it took like three months for me to make that kind of money. And I was like, what? So I I do, you know, I I don't think that treason is my best example of world building, but I do think that it gets a lot better in future books. And it's still a cozy story that gets people engaged.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

So well, that's all that matters, and that's really awesome too. I hope to get to where you're at at some point.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

Yeah, it uh it was a long, I mean, it was a long time coming, you know. Treason was my 15th book, so it just took a lot of it just takes a lot. I mean, it just and and it's luck, you know. Like I got lucky with treason. I hit the market at exactly the right time, and I got a lot of interest because I wrote exactly the right kind of book to hit the market at exactly the right time. And then it was lucky because like enough of the right people picked up the book that they started spreading it around and the right people heard about it, you know, and like that if they hadn't like if this random person, you know, hadn't picked up my book in the UK, I wouldn't have gotten, you know, my first offer that we turned into a four house auction that we then were able to get tour US on board with. So it just, yeah, it's all luck. I don't know. I mean, there's a little bit of skill in being out in the field, but I really can't understate the luck.

SPEAKER_02 21:35

Well, yeah, and the comparison too. Because I watched every one of your comparison videos just because I honestly will be testing that out for at least my memoir. Cause I already found a book that's similar to it that you were already showing on your IG and Sammy first showed it, and then I saw you showed it too. So I went, hey, I need to get the book. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

It's uh it the yeah, so the um what you're talking about are comp titles for anybody. Who's watching? They call them comp comparable comp titles. And they're really essential for the industry because otherwise publishers won't know how to label your book. And they won't, and booksellers won't know how to sell your book. So when someone comes in and they're like, I want a book like Avatar, you know, it's like, okay, well, there's a thousand books that say that they're just like Akatar. So now the bookseller has a very easy, shorter list that they can pick from and be like, oh, these books have marketed themselves as like Akatar, you know? And so like with this book, like I literally designed it to be like Legends and Lattes, and I added enough of the vibes of Legends and Lattes in the beginning before it kind of went off the rails and did its own thing. Um, but like them creating their bookshop is very legends and lattes. So anybody who's looking for that kind of book but something different will and has enjoyed this book because it feels similar, because Legends and Lattes was my comparable title. So yeah, it is interesting when you start to think about the marketing aspect of how books are packaged and how publishers can get people excited about them based on and and indie authors as well. You know, like if you go onto an you know your your platforms and you start talking about how this book is like these other books, that's a very easy way for indie authors to start marketing a book without really thinking too hard, which is nice.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

So it is so it was very helpful in TikTok seeing me do that because I already have even with the children's book I showed you earlier, I found another book similar to it that I can play with that I haven't yet. I should just do that on TikTok instead of worrying about it.

SPEAKER_03 23:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

Yeah. It's been out for a couple of years now, but it's done actually really well considering it's self-published children's, and it's mine right now had the biggest amount of pre-orders.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

Wow. Nice, good for you. Yeah, children's is a tough indie space. Um, I have a couple middle grade books that I am holding on to because I'm like middle grade right now in traditional spaces is completely dead. Um, maybe not completely, but like it's not doing well. It's like like gasping for breath on the ground, you know. Um, so I'm kind of holding on to those middle grade books until there's an inevitable resurgence. Like you can't take an entire genre away from children without there being some kind of backlash to that in three or four years. So I think, you know, by the time probably 2030 comes around, we'll be seeing a resurgence in middle grade, and I'll be able to pull those books back out and sell them for more money than they currently are worth.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

So that's well, yeah. Well, I know with actually uh another one of my favorite authors, Kaylin Byron, she does really well. Like I'm reading alongside your book, um, The Vanquishers, which is her middle grade, and it's been doing really well.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

That's good. Yeah, yeah. There are definitely some, but I think uh I think it was probably a couple of years ago I heard the statistic, and I and I'm probably completely butchering the statistic, but the basic g gist of it was that something like 10 authors wrote like 80% of all of the middle grade books and bookstores. Um, like there was like 10 authors in middle grade, you know, or so or something like that. Like I'm there's a statistic that was like that shocking that I was like, what? So, like if you're not one of those authors that is like really well known, you know, like the you know, the Rick Riordan, the Lisa McMahon, you're gonna kind of just fizzle and die in that genre, unless you can somehow claw your way in and become one of those people, you know. So I don't know. I I think that it just like I had a middle grade book, I loved it, you know. I think I think it's a great book, I really enjoyed it, and I will republish it as a duology with its companion novel, but later, you know, like I just it's not a space I'm really looking to get into right this very moment.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

So understandable. And yeah, the children's market is very saturated, but you still have chances, at least I've learned you can still get out there as long as you learn key terms and look at covers that are doing well, because I've learned to still you can do the image you see in your head, because I still did an image that I saw, but I still met the standards that were doing well at the same time. So it's just my idea.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

Well, and that's another use of comparable titles, is that you know, you're able to go in and and look at you know Amazon and see the best-selling books in fantasy, and then those covers are a template, you know. Like if people like, like psychologically, if people enjoy one kind of book and they see another book that has a very similar cover, their brain is like, oh, the book must be similar, even if the interior contents are completely different. So branding that cover along genre conventions is a very, very wise move. Um, but it needs to be recent because like certain trends will come and go. So, like if you look at like the romance genre, they're very into like the graphic covers right now. But if you went back, you know, even a decade, they were more of like the physical photography of like the watchboard app guys, right? Like, like you just kind of look now, and and it just kind of depends on what the current convention is. Um, and those can change very quickly.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

So that's very true too. But yeah, I'm still learning all the marketing and everything. I'm not like great at marketing in any way, sense or form.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

But well, and and I get very suspicious when people say they're great at marketing. Like I'm not, I'm like people people think that I am, and I'm like, bitch, I'm on YouTube making or on TikTok making a fool of myself. Like that's my marketing, you know. So I don't know. I I mean, like, there's I think there's strategies that as a market, you know, someone who's like dabbled in marketing, you can figure out. Like one of the things that I always like to reiterate is whenever you're making a video or an Instagram post or something, don't market for you. Mark it for what you think your readers can get out of your video. So, like, like what can they get from you, not what can you get from them. And like changing that kind of mindset and framing every video around, here's how I'm going to help you today, rather than you going in and being like, here's how you can help me today. Um, because then they'll scroll right by because they don't want to help, you know, people are tired, like they can't help everybody, you know. So they're like, whatever. But like if they feel like they're getting something out of it and it doubles as a promotion for your own book, suddenly now, you know. So like when I'm when I'm promoting like these books, like I won't make videos saying, you know, I very rarely I'll make videos saying buy my book. Like it's really rare. Like maybe like one out of every, you know, once a month, maybe I'll make a video like, hey, go buy these books. Um, most of the time I incorporate how I publish these books into educational videos, and then I show the cover and wave the cover around, you know. So I'll be like, oh, like I was traditional or I was self-publishing and now I'm traditional. Let's talk about it. And then I can like explain how that process happened for me. And then I get to like mention these books over and over and over again. And eventually people are like, oh yeah, that is pretty interesting. So when they see it in the bookstore, they're like, Oh, that's the book that was indie published, and then it's trad. Let me pick this up and read it, you know, so I can sell books that way inadvertently without making them scroll by because I'm not like buy my book, buy my book, you know. Like that makes sense. And frankly, that buy my book thing like that gets exhausting. I don't want to do it. It's just like it's so tiring to try. Yeah, no, it's like exhausting, like screaming into the nether is just like I don't have the bandwidth for this. Like it's just it's too much.

SPEAKER_02 29:00

Way too much, and it's the same extent of if like I've gotten on my YouTube videos people trying to sell me uh I can fix and make your YouTube videos better. And most of the time I block them or reply because they've gotten to my Facebook like pages of my personal book stuff and everything like that. I go in and report, block, and well, I first at least say no thanks, I'm not interested. And then I go through all that. But I don't feel like the continuous because once one comes, that means multiples are gonna be coming too.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

But yeah. So when you do the sell like in my book, same thing. But yeah, it's a struggle. It's it's a struggle. It's a major struggle. But the next question is just a fun one that I turned into a question because you had fun being petty with it. So I wanted to have fun turning it into a question. Wait, oh darn it. I guess the first sentence part is kind of that wow, my brain just did a fun. Okay. So only the first sentence. Just keep that in mind. Not first sentence, I guess. One, two, three, four, five, six, first six words. I'll get very specific. Uh is the lesbian love story based off of you and your fiance's relationship?

SPEAKER_01 30:18

No, it wasn't originally. Um, now I would say it is. Um, I it's actually like ironic because I wasn't actually dating my fiance when I wrote Treason. Like we were friends back then, like we met in 2019. Um, and I wrote Treason in 2022. And but we weren't dating at that point. We were just still like, you know, she would beta my books, she'd read my books and offer comments, and we were just friends. Like we'd go on vacations and stuff with all of our other friends and we'd talk online all the time, but like we weren't dating. And uh, so when I wrote that, like when I wrote treason, I think I was really trying to get my brain into a like, here's what my perfect relationship would look like, kind of thing. Like, because I I knew I wanted a very healthy, established relationship that stayed healthy and established throughout the entire series. Like the one thing you will never get in the Tones and T quartet is toxic relationships or like the will they won't they, right? Like, except maybe with Fayo and Wyland, but that's like something else. Um, inside the book, there's two characters that like everybody ships, and I'm just like, really? Like them? Like, they're very will they won't they just because of their personalities. But like Keanth and Reina, they're the the leading couple are very solid simply because I wanted to show that it's like there's more to a relationship after happily ever after. Because I feel like I saw a lot of books that were like, here's how they get together. And as someone who was like very avoidant in nature and like was trying to figure out how to get a happy, healthy relationship that didn't last three weeks, you know. I was like, well, what happens after they get together? Like, yeah, this person has told me that they really like me. How do I not fuck that up? You know, like and I just feel like none of the books that I was reading were helping me with that mindset. So I kind of, you know, I mean, therapy helped. I I'm like a lot of my books will have therapeutic like therapy techniques woven into them because I learned that from my therapist. And I think that and I think they're really interesting. And I feel like a lot of people don't know about those things or can't afford that kind of therapy. So like it's very nice. It was almost therapeutic for me when I was writing this in because it was like reiterating um the lessons that my therapist had taught me about relationships. So I wouldn't really say that they are they like they weren't originally based on her and me. I will say after we got together, we both liked that kind of relationship. So we have naturally emulated it in our own relationship, which is nice. Um, so like a lot of the healthy communication styles, if we can tell that our tempers are rising or like one of us feels like they need to storm off, we always are kind of like, whoa, take a pause and like let's talk about why we're feeling this way. Um, and then we like work through it and then we feel like stronger as a couple afterwards because we were able to kind of talk through emotions instead of just feeling them and storming off, which is really nice. So yeah, so like now I would go back and I reread Treason and I'm like, oh my God, we had almost that exact conversation. Like, oh my God, this conversation too, like in this different chapter. Like we had that play out three months ago, you know. Like I didn't realize, but like I didn't know that those would be problems when I wrote that book. I just wrote it's like things that I could expect when two people move in together after having long distance. And it turns out I was spot on because as two people who had long distance and then moved in together last year, we um did have those problems as well. So wow.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

So you predicted the future technically without even meaning to I don't know, man.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Well, and and I mean with with uh one of the things that I always have to laugh about is with um this gilded abyss. Um, it's about two women who go down in a submarine and the zombie apocalypse breaks out and they're trapped at the bottom of the ocean in a Titanic like submarine. And it I released it seven days or eight days before Ocean Gate happened, and that was really weird. Well, I got a really nice boost of of sales when I was like, Hey, you guys like Ocean Gate? Come and read this book that's basically Ocean Gate. And everyone was like, Oh my god, you know, so like they all went and bought it and bought the book, which was crazy.

SPEAKER_02 33:58

So I just really like the cover of it. I still am gonna get it. I have like a long list of books.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

Yeah, the uh the interior art in uh tomes and tea, uh Treason, um, is actually the same artist as Gilded Abyss. I was able to get. I commissioned a birthday print from her, um, and I bought the commercial rights to it just in case. And then I showed it to my publisher and they were like, oh my god, we love it. So, like, yeah. So now we'll have art from all we have a two artists we're rotating between. So, like books one and three are gonna be that artist that was Gilded Abyss, and then book two and four um are gonna be uh different artists that's actually friends with the cover artist of Tomes and T. So very cool.

SPEAKER_02 34:37

Well, at least it's consistent. I know I stick with my same artist too.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

Yeah, so I think it's important to stick, especially with covers. I think it's important to stick with the same artist.

SPEAKER_02 34:46

Oh yeah. With me, at least I go towards the unknown artist because I can, so I do. So right now, at least like super gay. My first American artist and then my Who You Are series, those are both these are both children's series. Um, that artist is in somewhere in Europe, but I only have two.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

Yeah, yeah. I I have so many artists at this point that I've I collect them like candy, where I'm just like, but they all they all need, like they all have different vibes. So depending on, and I write a lot of different books. So, like depending on the vibe that I'm looking for with each novel, will depend on whether or not I go with this artist or that artist. So um, like I'll go to like conventions and stuff. Like when I was at San Diego Comic Con, I met three artists that I actually would love to use for future books. Um so I gave them my information, they gave me theirs, I bought some prints from them that I hung up. Um, and then I was basically like I can reach out to them now because I've already set the stage and been like, I'm an author, you know, like let me use you as a cover artist. And they're like, okay, you know. So um there are several artists now that I feel like I can reach out to and be like, hey, I need you. And like some of them may be cover artists, some of them would be more interior art, like character art kind of designs. Um, and it just kind of depends on their specialty, you know, depending on what kind of vibes they put forth. Um, they all have different styles, and it's very cool to see. So artists amaze me. I don't know how they do it.

SPEAKER_02 36:06

I love artists so much. Well, they also it's like uh trying to think of well yep, words not coming. Well, working together, artist and author. It's the only way it works. Otherwise, nothing. Yeah, teamwork makes a dream work. There you go. That's as far as I can figure that since my words aren't working. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

Let's see. I always like to say human human authors support human artists because like fuck the eye. Always for the win.

SPEAKER_02 36:32

Yep, yep. But what was your favorite part of San Diego Comic-Con? That actually goes in really well. So the next part. Yeah, that does.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

Meeting the artists, I actually think was my favorite part. Um, they just like they have so many beautiful ones. Like I met an artist, she does um, she advertises that she writes, like she does like cosy art. Um, and she had a little plaque that was like cozy art, you know, and she'd aligned, you know, because she was really popular. Um, so I got in the line because I was like, I want to know what the cozy art is. Um, and when I went up to her, her name is Josie Sao, T-S-A-O, um, so um, J-O-S-E-Y sow on Instagram. And her art is like gorgeous. Um, and I was obsessed because there was this one picture of a bookshelf with like plants hanging down and like a little chair with a cat sitting on it. And I was like, I need that, I need that. Um and then there was another art piece that I really love, like the colors of. It was like this really dark blue, like kind of like atmospheric, like nighttime scene. And I was like, what is that one called? And she was like, Oh, it's a tea house. And I was like, You have bookshops and tea. Like I got so excited. Um, but like when I mentioned to her that I was like when I mentioned that I was a cozy author, she was like, Oh my gosh, what did you write? And I was like, Oh, I wrote the you know, can't spell trees without tea. And she like literally screamed like she was so excited because like she had heard of my books, and I was like, Well, I never heard of your art, but like, oh my god, your art is amazing. So she was really nice. It was like just such a positive, pleasant experience, I think. Um, and I had several of those over the course of the convention. Like, there were just so many artists that were so engaging, and it was nice to approach them as like another professional who is like actually putting things out into the world rather than just like a fan who's like buying their art. Um, of course, I did also buy their art, but but you know, um, and I got frames for them and everything. So uh, but yeah, it was it's it's very cool. Like it's just a very cool situation. So I think that was probably my favorite part of Comic-Con. I really enjoyed. I just the human connections, you know, in a in a convention hall with 100,000 people, it was just really nice to have like a couple human moments that kind of calmed things down, you know.

SPEAKER_02 38:23

With all the millions, because San Diego Comic-Con is the I think the biggest Comic-Con there is.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

Yeah, it's large. I think it's like a hundred thousand people showed up for this one. So it was chaos. Um, and I don't really do well with like like I'm a flight attendant, right? Like my crowd management is work, and then I go home and I'm like, I don't want to be around crowds. Like, I don't like amusement parks, I don't go to Disney. Um, I just like I don't want to be around people. I'd rather go to nature and like forget the world exists. So like when I was at this convention, it was a little overwhelming to me. I definitely had to like put some tactics into place to make sure that like my brain was not going to like be mush at the end of the day. So understandable.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

Well, with me, at least my day job is working with kids with special needs. So I tend to not want to be social afterwards.

SPEAKER_01 39:08

Yeah, yeah. A lot of mental energy, a lot of a lot, just a lot of emotional energy, you know.

SPEAKER_02 39:14

Well, and physical. There's biting, punching, spitting, there's a lot involved because you're changing behavior. So speaking about behavior, you have to understand behavior and how well from child to adulthood I've worked with all ages. You have to understand how that works per brain, what's going on. Yeah. And without making it, because on the cult side of things, there's the coercion side of things of changing behavior. So you have to watch for that and watch your words and watch what you do. Yeah. So there's two sides to that, and then there's physical, emotional, there's a lot that goes into just daily within an hour alone, because there's a lot of triggers that happen through the day, not only for yourself, but for the kids too.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's that's a very hard job. Good for you for doing it, because that is really quite extensive.

SPEAKER_02 40:06

It can be, but I've been doing it for if I don't include the paid time period, at least 10 plus years. Plus, I was a child of special needs myself. So that's why I use those words. It's such a controversial word, but 90% of the community prefer special needs and calling themselves that because it's taking back the word.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

Yeah. I mean, and honestly, I think that I think that there is some very interesting like nuances to language and the way that words are being used. Like, I just actually like this is embarrassing, but like I pay attention, I try to pay attention to certain words and avoid certain things. So, like when I first wrote Treason, I described the queen as like mad, like she's a mad queen, you know. And I think that was very like Alice in Wonderland in my brain.

SPEAKER_02 40:46

That's what I thought of when I first read.

SPEAKER_01 40:48

Right. But like uh, but like the reality is that like, you know, like being mad, being insane is like an actual clinical thing, you know. So and and she's not really like like she really, if I had to brand her, was more of a narcissist than anything. Um so like yeah, so yeah, cult leader. Yeah, like labeling her as mad, I don't really think is but like that wasn't appropriate, you know. So I had an arc reader kind of mention that and be like, hey, like this made me a little uncomfortable as someone, you know, with you know, mental, like like I think that person had bipolar. Um, and they were just like, This is really an uncomfortable word to use for this character. And I was like, Holy shit, you're right, you know. Um, and then even just as recently as probably three months ago or two months ago, um, my editor, like my copy editor, was like, hey, like you keep using the word mutely to like describe silence, like yeah. And like that just was something that like it slipped, it slipped out, you know, like I didn't really think about it. And now the and the minute she mentioned it, I was like, oh shit, you're right. Like I should not have used mutely or blindly, you know, like like she No, no, no, no, no. You know, it's like, no, no, like so, but learning how to identify those moments and you know, kind of accept with grace, like we all mess up and we all misuse words in certain ways. Um, like I think that was a very important lesson for me over the course of several years, and it's something that I'm still learning today because certain words, even now, like, yeah, like they might be appropriate in some ways, but then they're not in others, and then they could be taken back later on and then they could become appropriate again, you know, and just in a different context. So it it really is interesting to me to watch. Like I get sensitivity training at my job um every year, and it is interesting to see how language has changed even over a decade with certain things. So very cool. I mean, very it's good to think about, you know, because like as an author, those words do just slip right in and you wouldn't really think about them until someone mentions them. But like the minute they mention them, it's like, okay, well, that's a very easy thing to change, you know. Like obviously, I will strike those words from my dictionary and I will not use them in that context anymore because they mean something different.

SPEAKER_02 42:45

So well, at least with me, because I'm used to those words. I would never touch them because yeah, but like you're trained.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

Yeah, like like it's it's difficult because like a lot of authors today, I think, are not really conscious of those things. Like they're not actively trained, you know. Not everybody is a child behavioral specialist or like a flight attendant with diversity training, you know, like it's it is very like I tried to talk about those things in like a very non-judgmental context in my channel because I don't want authors who are not aware of those to feel like they messed up if they used them, because it's like, well, we all fuck up sometimes, like everybody fucks up sometimes in using words that shouldn't have been used. So just change it in the future and do better next time, you know. And if you're able to go back and edit the book that you use those for. That's a pain. That is a pain to do.

SPEAKER_02 43:33

I've had to do that before.

SPEAKER_01 43:34

But yeah, like it when you're when you're self-publishing, it doesn't feel like a pain to me. But like traditional publishing, like it definitely like you can't fix that because they do a print run of a certain size, and like unless they do another print run, those books are already out there with that mistake in it, you know. So, like changing them, like I think that's why advanced readers are so important because they can help you with those sensitivity issues and like identify those words before it goes out into the world.

unknown 43:59

Um

SPEAKER_01 44:00

Um so yeah, like I I actually do think that that's something that I really love about indie publishing and something that I'm a little nervous about with traditional publishing is because in traditional that book is like under lock and key and I don't get the eyes on it that I did when I was indie. You know, so like when I was indie, like I had probably 300 people looking at treason and pirates before they actually released to the public. Um and that meant 300 views of people who were like, hey, this this sentence made me uncomfortable. And it's like, well, shit, I'll change it, you know. But when treason comes out now, it's like we better hope that the publisher did their job, you know, and and that I'm able to keep those things in mind for the future. So yeah, I don't know. There's just there's a lot of nuance to this kind of thing. Like it's it really needs to be discussed more openly, I think, um, because it is difficult, you know. Like if you're not in a career with that kind of training, you might not know, you know.

SPEAKER_02 44:47

Well, and the voices, sadly enough, that are disabled. Like I love Alice Swong. I love her very much. So she has her own publishing company, she is still self-published, she does have a little bit of vanity, I know, not necessarily the full-on, but she does go through her own publishing. She does have help for the everything. She's a great advocate, but because if you have a background in being disabled in any sense, which everyone prefers that, and I'm one of the ones, so I'm still getting comfortable with that, you don't always get the recognition, at least. Not always, because she's got a lot. She's awesome. I love Alice Wong so much, but um, yeah, there isn't enough conversation for one about disabilities. There's not even enough I barely ever see representation of disabled characters unless someone's writing it themselves. Right. I see, at least for me personally, now starting to see not enough. I still don't think it's enough. There's at least a little more of queer rise of writing, but there's still not enough representation there either. But that's my own personal opinion. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:56

No, and I agree. I mean, I think that I think that it's difficult, like for something with, you know, when you're writing a disability, like there is a lot of different forms of it. And I think that there is always going to be the question with readers about why the author chose that particular form to represent, unless they had some kind of personal tie to that disability. Um, probably more so than a lot of like we live in a very diverse world, but I think there are, you know, disabled disabilities need to be done very carefully. Um, so it is hard, you know. I mean, like I know that in my books, like I'll I'll include anxiety, I'll include ADHD, I'll include like touches of autism, you know, um, but that's more neurodivergence than disability. And like I'll have characters with disability.

SPEAKER_02 46:35

Neurodivergent is counted as disability.

SPEAKER_01 46:38

Yeah, yeah. So like like the that, but those are the areas that I'm familiar with, you know. Like, like if I had a disability, it would be migraines. Like I get constantly awful migraines consistently. Like I'm on, I literally have to give myself a shot every month to like keep them under control. And like that is, you know, technically a disability, but it's like, but it's also like it's a very common one that a lot of people suffer from. So it doesn't really feel like it's, I don't know, like like it's it's one of those things where I'm like, well, how how bad do I how bad off do I need to be? Because I can function in daily life with the medicine that I'm on. So like, how bad off do I need to be before I can write that kind of representation in and have it count as a book that has disability representation? Like there's there's that kind of question about like where do I want to go and how do I want this to be represented? Um, so I don't know. It's interesting. There's again, like there's just a lot of nuance to when you're choosing how to write, what to write, how to represent. It's just confusing.

SPEAKER_02 47:28

Well, with me, at least because of who I work with during the day and myself included, being in there. Just like with in my case, I don't believe drugs would do anything, but I'm also getting tested for autism since I was expressive language disorder, is what I got.

SPEAKER_03 47:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:44

But if you look at it, it matches autism. But I'm going through the testing. I'm not just going out there and saying I'm autistic. I'm actually going through the testing. I have two more parts of it to go through. But yeah, like I know everyone I've heard from the community prefers, anyways, those who have that specific to write. But the problem is people don't watch. They don't want to see a person in a wheelchair, they don't want to see someone who can't walk on two feet, they don't want to see someone on oxygen writing their story speaking, or they don't want to see someone who helps write. Like Alice Wong does have someone that helps her write because she can't. She doesn't have the ability to. She also has everyone that I've worked with who has one of these calls it a speaking box. So their voice that someone can just, or she can use her eyes, the eyes gaze. Oh, that's because I know she can't do this, but eye gaze to say what she wants to say, they don't want to see that. So it has a lot to do with people want to see typical someone who can walk, someone who can do everything on their own. And if they look like they're not disabled, then there's also a nuance of because I could easily come off of not being that, but yeah, I technically am and have taken a long time to accept that for myself. Yeah. That also is taken as a well, you're not in a wheelchair. So there's two sides of that still. So because of that, it also makes less Alice Wong is the only voice actually getting recognition within the disabled community. But other than that, there's thousands of them out there. I've seen mothers even writing for their children and children that have written children's books, and children that have written, yeah. It's just all about people not being into the image of what someone should look like in order to write a book or write anything.

SPEAKER_01 49:31

Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's very tricky because I think there's a lot of facets to that in pretty much every marginalized community. You know, like there are people like I like my you talk about a spite book, you know, like pirates was my spite book because people were giving me homophobic reviews on treason because I wrote lesbians, you know, like and that's kind of crazy. Which I think is then you look at you know the the people of color, I mean, and they try to get online and promote their books, and the algorithm actively suppresses them because they're not white, you know, and it's just every facet of that, like that's why we need representation like that so much more, because it is really just something that like we need to start seeing more of that type of, you know, I don't know, like we just we need more of it. We need more of everything, you know, like we need more disable characters, neurodivergent characters, people of color, LGBT, everything. Like we need more.

SPEAKER_02 50:18

So fully agree. Yeah, we need more. And like Caitlin Byron, I know, is the first of her voices to be heard because she's black and queer and self-published, but now through traditional publishing, because one of her books hit it. Nice, and she was also through, I think, TikTok. I don't know though. I don't know her full story. So anything I say, don't fully believe me.

SPEAKER_01 50:39

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's there's a lot of um, I will say indie spaces are much, much better for representation. Um, and traditional publishing is is trying, but they still have to go through, you know, the the levels that they've had in the past set up. Like there's a lot of higher-ups in some of these publishers that get a final say about what kind of books go through. And, you know, I just I like, I mean, like we could talk about it for hours, but you know, it just it's it's more it's easier to do, I think, in indie spaces than trad spaces. And I hope that that changes in the future.

SPEAKER_02 51:10

So I hope it becomes more inclusive, even in author space and every space, because even like in DocuSeries space too, I've realized a little trend of like the one I was in was pretty inclusive, just too many stories to get out there. So it made it harder to work all them in, and you have to have like three backups and three proofs, and go through a bunch of lawyers and it's not like that's chaotic for sure. But the one I was in, thankfully, was a little more inclusive and does things a little differently compared to most docuseries. But yeah, I'm hoping all storytelling spaces becomes inclusive. But we already handled one of the questions without even meaning to. Do you believe the Sapic wait? Oh yeah. Do you believe the Sapic book genre has grown over time?

SPEAKER_01 51:58

In the last like five years, yeah. No, it's like exploded since probably 2017, I would say. Like there were Sapic books before that, but like insane. Like there's just there's so many now. Um, like it used to be, I mean, even as recently as probably two, three years ago, I remember making lists of like books with lesbians and it was very short. Like I could hit all of the new releases in a year, you know, and now there's just so many, um, which I think is really good because I feel like like not that all representation is not important, but I feel like there's an abnormally high number of women writing gay men. Um, and I could get into the psychology of why that is, um, in my opinion. But but it just it's, you know, I I'm glad to see that we're starting to see more women loving women, you know, because I feel like, or like, you know, like more representation for pan people, you know, more representation for bi people. Um, asexuals are starting to show up in fiction too, which I think is amazing. You know, like I love, like I thought I was ace for several years, um, and then I realized I was actually demi. Um, but I didn't make that connection for probably five or six years. So I was like, oh, I'm just asexual, like I just won't really ever care about this. Um, and so like writing asexual characters now is very important to me because it was very, it was a very interesting phase, like not phase, but like for me, it was it was really more of a growth pattern, I guess. Like I thought I was this one thing and then I learned more about another facet of it. Um, and then was like, oh no, that's actually, I think, what I am. Um, but it is interesting for me because like when I was ace, I was literally like, like, you know, how many people have told, oh, you just haven't read them right, you know, you just haven't met the right person yet. And it's like, really? Because I've met a lot of people. Like I've met, like I've gone on a lot of dates with a lot of people. Like that was so frustrating to me. So so yeah, I think I think that there's, you know, a very wide range of the rainbow that's coming out now. Um, and I'm excited to see less of the focus on gay men and more on the focus of all of these other nuanced areas, you know, like lesbians are great, but like let's focus on some non-binary characters, let's see some trans representation, especially now. Let's see some trans representation. More trans all the way. Yeah, more trans all around. Like we need a lot of all of it because it's not just gay men, you know, like gay men are the you know, might be like more socially acceptable because more women, you know, feel comfortable in those spaces. Um, I don't personally, um, but that's probably because I am actually more lesbian coded. So like I'm technically bisexual, but like, you know, I mean, I'm obviously marrying a woman, so like yeah, you can still be bisexual.

SPEAKER_03 54:22

So it's a spectrum.

SPEAKER_02 54:23

It is, it's totally a spectrum. I fully agree with that. With me, I just can't figure out my specifics. So I'm just sticking with queer, but I prefer women. But I there is an attraction to men, but not as strong as women. But I'm again not labeling myself except queer.

SPEAKER_01 54:41

I kind of love that queer label, I think, goes back to that discussion about dialogue and how certain people are reclaiming certain words because like queer when I was growing up was an insult, you know. And now it's like, and now it's just like, oh yeah, no, I'm queer. And everyone's like, oh, okay, you know, and it's like that's kind of nice. Like that's that is a very nice, like easy word to use when you don't want to go into like, well, I'm bisexual but leaning lesbian and demisexual. It's like that's that's a mouthful. Like, oh, I'm queer is easy, you know. So I I think that's great, you know, and I think that and I think that queer is a very safe place to sit while you figure it out because like I said, like I thought I was one thing for a very long time and then realized I was not, and I was able to like kind of move into a new label. But again, like queer was a very safe place to sit in the meantime, you know, which is nice.

SPEAKER_02 55:27

So it is nice, and my sister uh is the one who gave me a whole spiel and education on queer and how you might as well just use that and only that until further notice because queer can be anything.

SPEAKER_03 55:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:43

So yeah. My sister's part of the community too.

SPEAKER_01 55:46

Let's see.

SPEAKER_02 55:46

Well, here's a fun one. Did you always know you wanted to be an author?

SPEAKER_01 55:49

Oh yeah. Yeah. Um, I started writing my first book when I was 11 years old. Um, and I wrote all through high school. And I'm actually really glad that I did because I feel like I got the chance to explore any genre I wanted. I wrote any character I wanted. I jumped stories constantly. Like I never finished, you know, I finished a couple books in high school, but like never anything intense. Like they were like 40, 50,000 word books. Like they were like novellas looking back. But it gave me a lot of freedom to experiment with, you know, fan fiction, dialogue development, story structure, and learn kind of what I liked. Um, so that now when I'm writing, because like when the minute you start to write for publication, it becomes a business, you know. Like the minute you decide that you want to publish, your writing is no longer a creative hobby. It is a, you know, hobby that has now become your entire income or like a part or a portion or you intend it to be a portion of your income. And so when you're writing for the public instead of writing for yourself, you you almost do need to think about certain things that the reader will expect, right? Like they expect a certain story structure psychologically, even if they don't know how to voice that. They're expecting, you know, certain progressions in the plot, even if that you don't know what those are yet, you know. So like you need to basically write for your audience instead of for yourself. So I do think that it's very important when new authors show up to be able to experiment and explore what they like before they start thinking about how to sell it, because I think that there is something very magical about being able to write exactly what you want when you want to, and dropping ideas and picking up new ideas and trying a bunch of different genres and trying a bunch of different things. Yeah, I always did like for sure. I mean, like there's high school books that I wrote that I'm like, oh, I'm gonna do this full time and it just it takes it took a while, you know, like I had to get a job in the meantime because publishing is not fast in any sense. Yeah, like I'm very lucky that now in my 30s I can pay with my I can pay for my life with my writing, but like there was 10 years before that point, 15 years before that point where that was just an impossibility. Um, so don't, you know, don't quit your day job. That's what I always tell people. I'm like, don't quit your day job. Yeah, I even know like I'm I'm definitely making it where I could quit my day job and I still won't because I'm just like it could go, it could drive at any moment. Like for all I know, something could happen and and these books will stop selling and then I'm SOL, you know? Like it's just until until I know that there's a solid career there, which probably will take me another 10 years to prove, I won't quit. It's just not worth it.

SPEAKER_02 58:11

That's part. And well, yeah, because you've already pretty much said where everyone can find you.

SPEAKER_01 58:17

I kept going back and forth on the stuff. TikTok, TikTok, Instagram. Um, I have a website, it's very beautiful. I got it professionally made, which was lovely. Um, so my website is Rebecca Thorne.net. Um, not dot com, it's .net. Uh, I yeah, TikTok is my prime my main platform. Instagram I'm on pretty consistently. Um, I have a threads, I haven't been on it since they changed some terms of services. I'm just like, and then text-based platforms don't really work for me anyway. So, like once they change the terms of service, I was like, great, this is a great excuse. I'm leaving, you know, and I like peaced out. But I'm on Thur. If you really want to follow me, you can follow me there. I just I don't really post there hardly ever. Yeah, that's pretty much it. I might get on YouTube at some point. I've been trying to ease into that, but like the YouTube barrier for me is still very high. So TikTok, Instagram are gonna be the best places.

SPEAKER_02 59:02

Perfect. Okay, so thanks so much for being here. And if you guys made it through the entire video and liked it, please like, subscribe, leave a comment below, questions, Ethan for Rebecca or I or whatever you want to write at the bottom. And I'll have all her information at the bottom below. And then embrace your truth, tell your story. You have a story to tell, I have a story to tell. Thanks so much for being here, guys. Peace out. Now we switch over to Natalie Nodis. She's an amazing human and voice actress. You can catch her narrating a lot of queer books. So I hope you enjoy our pretty short conversation. Peace. Here she is. Natalie, which I always have trouble saying your last name. Not us.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:12

Not us, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:13

Not us, okay, set correctly. Yay. If you're new here, thanks for being here. This is an inclusive space, so everyone is welcome. If you like the content, please like, subscribe, and help the algorithm out by leaving a comment below. And I'm gonna let Natalie introduce herself.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:28

Hey, I'm Natalie. I am an audiobook narrator of over 500 titles, and I have my debut novel, which came out last year, being re-released on May 20th, and it's called Gay the Prayaway.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:40

What inspired you to write gay the pray away?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:43

You're not the first person to mix that though. Yeah, I grew up extremely conservative Christian. And as someone who records a lot of queer fiction, I hadn't come across a book that kind of examined the religious trauma experience of growing up religious as a queer person. And I wanted to write about kind of my own childhood, but fictionalized so it's not too personal. Yeah. So it's kind of about a girl coming out to herself and falling in love for the first time and how that changes her world and the choices she has to make.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:14

I love that you highlight in the book the library that that's a key storyline. Uh, what inspired you to kind of put that in as a huge source of getting out or recognition of, hey, something's wrong and what I'm doing?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:29

Libraries have been really important and special for me growing up. It was one of the few places that I was had access to media that wasn't heavily curated. The conservative homeschooling cult that I grew up in, my parents were not supposed to give me any kind of media, let me read books or watch anything that hadn't been curated by like the authorities in this Christian homeschooling cult. So the library was one of the few places where I could read stuff that wasn't specifically extremely conservative Christian. And I really enjoyed that freedom. And I also thought about when I was writing this, how when I grew up, I was so ready to change my worldview. But the a lot of my family and friends were not. And I think that growing up reading a lot kept my brain like more flexible and ready for new ideas in a way that other people's brains weren't, who were growing up in this very sheltered, curated box. So I just I think libraries are really important and having access to different perspectives is so good for our brains and helps us be ready to be flexible and grow.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:32

Fully agree with that. I actually have experience of being in a cult too that is very anti-LGBTQAA, but actually forces people to change.

unknown 1:02:42

Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:42

It's okay. I read your book actually as a reference for the memoir I'm writing just to see how you did yours.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:49

I tried to write a memoir for a bit, but it was too hard to know like what to share personally. So I ended up writing fiction. But good for you. Do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:58

But it's good because you can't tell. Well, it seems like, at least to me from a reader point of view, it seems like some parts are true, some parts are not. Yeah. Just by the description of your characters, which by the way, I love the art and the new art too.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:14

Thank you. Yeah, I think I've been really lucky with cover artists. I love both of them.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:18

And I fully agree with what you said with libraries and different perspectives. That's really important, especially now and understanding where people are coming from versus keeping ideologies that are old and outdated. That's the nicest way I can put it.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:31

Yeah, yeah, for sure. But tell me about your your cult experience. Can I ask you?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:36

Yeah, absolutely. Twin Flames Universe. So I was in the docu-series Escaping Twin Flames. Oh my god for portion. So I was told I was a male in a woman's body. That was what led to me leaving them in 2020. I joined them when they were first starting up in like 2016.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:52

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:53

They are still running right now. And 16, I guess, 16 plus people, Canada covered a month ago them and actually interviewed the leaders, Jeff and Shelia. But there has been transitions. A lot of them were in the same group I was in that was told they were males at the time. So the 16 plus people were in my group. I know for a fact, in my own experience, that was pressure because I was pressured to cut my hair, change my pronouns, and they also forced changing my pronouns. So even when I said no, she, her, not he, him, they refused to follow that. And they have Catholic Christian backgrounds. And I actually on this channel interviewed someone who's part of the was part of who's queer, MAGA cult, the Christian national, whatever. I didn't understand it. I learned from her everything, but she was in a cult and it was very similar to Twin Flames Universe, at least the way they use God to say you're this, and if you don't listen to this, then you're choosing hell. So ultimately, me leaving was technically choosing hell.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:56

Hey, welcome.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:57

Thanks. I actually really like it. Yeah, at least we're nice over here, so it's actually better, but I don't know the best way of explaining Twin Flames Universe. That's why I'm writing a big portion of it in my memoir.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:10

I hadn't found a book that was queer, exactly like you said. So in yours, well, actually it was because of Rebecca Thorne when I saw her do a picture of your book, I went to have to buy it.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:21

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:22

And so I bought it and read it within because I'm a slow reader, but I read it in a week, which is fast for me. But yeah, yours is the first book that's queer and memoir-ish, since I know there's certain parts that are true.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:35

Yeah, yeah. It's been really fulfilling to connect with people who have had similar experiences because it does feel like we're to me, it's like I'm a freak. Nobody else experienced this. So to be able to find so many people who were like, Me too, has been really validating for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:49

That's good. Yeah. I thought, yeah, I felt that way too because I couldn't. I need for when I write, I have to find references and I wanted to have a queer reference and not just white straight. People because that's mainly all cult-wise that's out there.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:03

So that's a lot of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:04

Yeah. So thankfully you wrote your book. Oh, there is a question I have. Do you think it's common for queer people to join cults or to be raised in one?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:14

I really don't know. I think that hearing from so many people who grew up in different Christian denominations, who their experiences really resonate with my book raises an interesting question about like what is the definition of a cult? Because even if they weren't in like certified cults, a lot of the ideas, the verbiage, the sense of control and following a leader is similar, even if it wasn't in a bona fide cult like you and I were in. So I think it just raises some interesting questions about like American Christian nationalism and and how cultish it is, even if it doesn't always get labeled as a cult, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:53

Does make sense. So it is now official. Okay. Dr. Lawlich, who I interviewed on this channel, she is an expert in cults and was an cult herself. And queer, actually. She's finally writing her memoir, but she's like 70s queer or 60s. She's way far back. Way, way, way. But she said that yes, it's a cult, just like she gave the yes for Twin Flames Universe being a cult. And even though people don't really listen to experts anymore, but she does have definitions of what a cult is. So leader and then following, but you can also have a one-on-one cult. So it can be an abusive one-on-one relationship. Cult, so like I can't think of her name. I always forget her name. The person that killed her mom, that person was on a one-on-one cult.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:39

Yeah. So the definition has broadened, and there's more people like Dr. C, Dr. Kokel. I don't know how to say her last name. She does coercive control, and she's gone more in depth in studying that. And she actually has high statistics now and what that looks like. So there are people, but they're women. And because women are minority, no one hears about this. And I interviewed her on this channel too, and she brought up coercive control, what that looks like, and all the definitions you need to get it in law, since Australia already has that in law, at least in an abusive relationship. I wish America would have it in law so we wouldn't have our current problem right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:15

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:16

But yeah. And then what do you think draws people to cults?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:20

I don't know, because I was raised in it. I didn't like choose to go to it. But I think in the particular the IBLP quiverful movement that I was raised in, parents were promised that this was a way to like guarantee that your kids would turn out good, whatever that means. And I think that that was really attractive to a lot of people, clearly. I mean, a lot of people were in IBLP in its heyday. I think that people were really attracted to the idea of like, we promise if you do these things, your kids are gonna be great and you're gonna have a great relationship and God's gonna be happy with you and he's gonna make you rich. Like the promise of all those things felt like great in a world that's scary and lacks guarantees. Hearing that, I think was attractive to a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:03

Yeah, that makes sense. But actually kind of sounds similar to Twin Flames Universe, a guarantee of your lover. So there you go. Guaranteed. You don't have to answer this one. I just read it out of curiosity, but what parts of the, and by the way, you'll get to see this and tell me what you want edited out or not. What parts of your story are true and which parts are fiction? You don't have to answer it. I can skip it too.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:26

I would say that the setting is very much drawn from my childhood, but all of the things, the plot points are not true. Like the family setup is not exactly mine, the people are not exactly people that I knew, but this the setting and the kinds of people and the kinds of things that they're saying and doing and thinking are pulled from my experiences.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:46

That makes sense. And I actually really, really like your other main character, at least how you describe her. That was one of my favorites when you introduce her in the story and the church. That was really cool. And to see kind of the traditional little bit stereotype at the same time, not of I guess different backgrounds, that religion. I don't know how to say that correctly.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:06

Yeah, different people who are attracted to that group at the time.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:09

Yeah. And I really like that character that you added in there that escaped that idea in the story. I'm trying not to say it so people go buy it and read it. Yeah. And then the very important one, which we might be ending a little earlier, it looks like where can people find you and where can they also find your book?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:27

Yeah. I'm on Instagram and TikTok and threads as at Natalie Nautis, N-A-U-D-U-S is my last name. And you can pre-order Gay the Pray Away everywhere. Bookshop.org. It is on Amazon and Barnes Noble's and everything. And it comes out uh May 20th, which is soon.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:49

Very soon. And actually, all the links will be down in the description below. And I'll try to find the pre-order links too, down in the description below.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:57

Audiobook is available too, and I recorded my own audiobook naturally.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:01

Only makes sense, which I like hearing your voice when you do your recordings, which is fun to see. If anyone follows you on social media, they'll get to hear your voice and how you record. So thanks so much for being here and embrace your truth. Tell your story. I have a story to tell, you have a story to tell. Until next Saturday at 10 a.m. Eastern. Peace. Thanks so much for being here, everyone. Uh, I hope you enjoyed this episode with many more to come. If you'd like to help support and grow the podcast and even the YouTube channel, please not only follow, like, subscribe, but please leave a review on Spotify, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, or anywhere you listen to this podcast. Thanks so much for being here. Until next week, on Wednesday at 7 a.m. Mountain Standard Time. Peace. Catch you later.