The Language of Cults, Cognitive Bias & Magical Overthinking | Amanda Montell

Author and linguist Amanda Montell (Cultish, The Age of Magical Overthinking) joins Jessi to unpack cognitive dissonance, the psychology behind cult influence, and why our brains betray us in the information age — plus books, writing, and favorite dinosaurs.

Lyrics By: Jessi Hersey

Music By: AJ Music Group

Artwork By: Zummi

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Listening to voices, stories can be strange. It's good to open up to new stories and finding backstories of how people came to be, only to free the mind of what blinds us with only a glance gives us a chance to see people be who they truly are. From silent voices to shining light. Stories that inspire awareness and change. I welcome you to Jesse's stories, unheard voices. Today we have Amanda Montel. And if you like the YouTube channel, please like, subscribe, and please do leave a comment down below to help the algorithm with stuff. Amanda, to introduce yourself and what you do.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Sure. My name is Amanda Montel, and I'm an author. I write about social sciences in a fun way. My first book was called Word Slut, which is about language and gender, my backgrounds in linguistics, and my second book, which is related to today's subject matter. Both of my next two books were anyway. My second book is called Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism. It's about the language of cults from Scientology to Soul Cycle. And then my third book is called The Age of Magical Overthinking: Notes on Modern Irrationality. And it's a kind of genre blendy reckoning with cognitive biases in the information age. And I also have some podcasts.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Which are super cool podcasts and cognitive bias is my new favorite word, just so you know. Yeah, use it. I poof it learning that her perm definitely changed the way I moved through the world. I also use it against people now, too. So thank you. Just trying to help people feel smug. There you go. What inspired you to write the art of magical overthinking?

SPEAKER_02 2:21

But yeah, so the Age of Magical Overthinking was really inspired by some of what I was researching during the cultish writing process. I was looking into sort of the mechanics of cult influence, trying to pull back the veil on why people get involved with groups like Twin Flames Universe or Nexium or even something as innocuous as a really intense workout studio. There's a lot of stereotyping about cult followers, and I was interested about what sort of psychology and linguistic strategies were actually at play. And I kept coming across all of these mentions of cognitive biases, including confirmation bias, which some may have heard of. It's our tendency only to seek out and believe and remember information which validates our existing beliefs while discarding and forgetting information which controverts them, or the sunk cost fallacy, which is our tendency to think that resources already spent on an endeavor justify spending even more. So, in a really low-stakes example, you've already watched five seasons of some show that you're not even interested anymore, but you're this far in and you're attached to the characters and you pay the cable bill, so might as well keep going, that kind of thing. But those two cognitive biases also apply to why someone might stay in a high control group or a cult for longer than makes sense to anyone else, including them. And I was fascinated by that, but I had to put some of the in-depth cognitive bias research to the side for the purposes of cultish, because that book would have gotten really unwieldy really fast. But I got the idea to write a book where every chapter would be dedicated to a different cognitive bias, which I would use as a theme or lens to explore not necessarily cult stuff, but more the irrationalities that we see in our everyday life in the information age. So intense cycles of celebrity worship and dethronement or hardcore embrace of TikTok manifestation gurus during times of crisis, to feelings of panic that we all get in response to something as objectively innocuous as an outdated clipbait headline. So I was just really interested in how our innate decision-making strategies that once helped us survive during a different time in history are now clashing with the information age.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Yeah, it's very relevant, honestly, to what's happening even right now as we speak and talk. Yeah, it really is. You already explained that. What is cognitive dissonance and its role on society today?

SPEAKER_02 4:55

Oh my God, its role in society, its role in my own life. Yeah. Cognitive dissonance is that really disquieting internal skirmish you feel when you're logically or through your powers of reasoning coming to a decision in one direction, but your intuition or maybe some of these cognitive biases are pulling you in another direction. So, for example, in a cult situation, let's say you've joined a group five years ago, most of your friends are in that group. Let's say it's a new age spirituality group, but you're starting to get the logical sense that, like, all of the money that you spent, it has disappeared, and all the promises that they made about your internal healing or whatever, you're not really seeing a return on those investments, so to speak. But at the same time, they're delivering you all of this word salad to help you justify your decisions to yourself. And all of your friends are in this group, and you don't want to have to acknowledge that maybe you made the wrong decision. And so you're being pulled in two directions at all times. That that's that's an extreme form of cognitive dissonance, but we might feel cognitive dissonance in our daily lives. Say you're you're offered an opportunity at work that maybe goes against some value that you previously held. You're like, oh, I guess I could justify that if I do some mental gymnastics. Yeah, I could take that opportunity. Whatever. That's cognitive dissonance.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Yeah, trying to think of an example. Kind of gaslighting in a sense. Cognitive dissonance.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

I guess it is a feeling that you will. Yeah. What it has in common with gaslighting is you're being pulled in two directions that have opposing points of view. Someone's doing something on purpose. But I guess gaslighting is someone's intentional campaign to cause you to mistrust your own reality. And cognitive dissonance is this internal feeling. Yeah, when someone gaslights you, you could start to feel cognitive dissonance. Sure. Maybe gaslighting is more, or sorry, cognitive dissonance is more a symptom of gaslighting. Could be, maybe, but yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

It could. I like Dr. Robin Stern. She was on here. I should have asked her that. I didn't think of that. But that's her forte. That's what she does, gaslighting. And it just did me of that because of the relationship she talks about in the beginning of her book, which is between just a one-on-one relationship of the man pretty much telling something different than what's actually happening.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

I don't know if that fully falls under it, but that's yeah, no, it does, it does because especially in a cult-like scenario or in some kind of emotionally abusive one-on-one scenario, you yeah, you're gonna take advantage of the internal conflict that someone might feel or that cognitive dissonance, and you'll use it to your advantage if you're like the abuser.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

That would make sense, honestly. And then this one's a fun one, just out of curiosity, from listening to your podcast and having read all your books that are currently published. Do you ever find yourself pretty much keeping track of your own behavior in order to change it?

SPEAKER_02 8:17

I probably should be doing that more. But yeah, and you know what's entirely too funny is, and I totally deserve this, is that my partner, my spouse, will who has also read my books. My my third book is dedicated to him because it's really his exact genre of a book that he liked. I really did in part write it for him. But he will sometimes clock a cognitive bias governing my behavior and he'll point it out. I was attending a conference this past weekend, a writer's conference, and it was like expensive to attend. The ticket was $300 something dollars, and so I really wanted to get my money's worth. And but that required me to go back multiple days in a row. And there was one day when I was really exhausted and I didn't really want to go back. I didn't really think I had much more to learn, but of course I did. But I was like, I think I'm tapped. And I was like, oh, but I think I'm gonna go because I want to get my money's worth. And he's that sunk cost fallacy. You know, it's like already spent the money, now I need to spend the time. And I was like, that's so fair. Like I'll stay home and do something else. Yeah. Awesome though. Yeah, yeah. And I definitely clock some of the biases that I wrote about in in my book in my own behavior sometimes. And it really does help because I'm able to notice, like, oh, that is irrational, actually. And like, I don't need to panic in one way or another. And not always does recognizing the irrationality help you feel better, but sometimes it does, and sometimes it puts you on the right path because you're like, okay, I don't need to go down that spiral. I can course correct and do something self-carish instead. Self-carish, self-carish, partial self-care.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

I take that as self-carish. Self-carish. I know with me, I track my behavior and fully aware of it constantly. And I annoy myself. Actually, there's a cool meme on autism of someone saying I annoy myself with my own behavior. It's oh my god, I definitely annoy the living shit out of myself.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

But I I don't know if you relate to this. Also, those of us who make things for the internet and edit those things and have to be confronted with our own likeness. That's a recipe for being double annoyed.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

Yeah, I yeah, like with these interviews, once it's gets edited, I don't watch it again. I leave it to you guys to decide what you want out. I don't watch it until it's back on again.

SPEAKER_02 10:39

Yeah, I know. When I really do not look at consumers' reviews of my work, it's kind of none of my business. But in the past, when I have, in a moment of weakness, caught someone saying something about like how they find my voice annoying or whatever, I'm just like, yeah, get in line. I've been finding myself annoying for 33 years. So you think you have something new to say?

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Yeah, I've never liked my voice. So I was a critic of my voice, at least since I was born. So there you go.

SPEAKER_02 11:07

I like your voice. You have a you have a very unique speaking voice. Uh, you should embrace that.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

Do whatever you want. But I I like your voice. Thank you. I appreciate that. You are only the second person to ever tell me that. The first one would be my mom. So there you go.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

Your mom's iconic. No, I think you you have you your voice doesn't sound like everybody else's voice. That's a beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

I used to think it sounds like a man, but not as much anymore. Now I don't know what it sounds like, so I'm gonna stick with what you said. It's unique. It is, it's unique. And then a really fun one is what's your favorite dinosaur?

SPEAKER_02 11:41

Okay, I'm not sure if this is the right pronunciation. I think the emphasis might be on a different syllable, but it's a parasyrolophus. Someone's surely gonna correct me, but it's the I won't. It's a dinosaur that has a hollow crown. And just being able to making noise, it that hollow crown allows it to project noise across long distances. So it's really it's the podcaster of dinosaur.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

That's really cool though. I was just going with my childhood dinosaur of I had to look up the name because I didn't know the normal name, but the bronchosaurus long neck one, because I had an invisible friend that was a bronchosaurus when I was little, names Gayley. So I thought I'd reference that in our interview.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

That's so cute. For reference, anyone who doesn't know why you're not to usurp your interview, but for anyone who's why are we talking about dinosaurs now? In the confirmation bias chapter of The Age of Magical Overthinking, I have a scene at an animatronic dinosaur exhibit, a scene from my life. And yeah, I love dinosaurs is also just the explanation. Who doesn't? You have aliens in there too.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

I read everything, most of it I read some after I listened to your podcasts, and some I read in between. But yeah, I read it all the way. Thank you so much. And the dedication to everything. Oh, wow. The acknowledgments, the bit acknowledgements are harder for me, but I can do the dedication page. But when it comes to acknowledgments, I can read a sentence of it. I think I did read at least one sentence of it. Oh, nice. That's my intention span.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

Okay, so fair. I jumped to the sometimes. I read the acknowledgments now. This is just author brain poison brain, but sometimes I'll read the acknowledgments first because I'm just curious to see who a certain author, who their editor was, who they were friends, who are their author friends. I'm just curious about authors' relationships because it's such a disparate community sometimes. Authors are so isolated. And yet you can connect with them on social media if you want, which I forget. I forget I can slide into the DMs of my favorite authors and be like, I'm a fan of your work, which I've started doing because why not? But I love reading the acknowledgements because it's like a window into their real life. That's true.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

I like going based off of the book first. I used to do this, Nicholas Sparks. I read all his books, and then I eventually learned about his life from there. And then there's other authors that I've known about lives first before reading, but it's always interested me too. But with you, you're pretty open regardless, whether it's podcasts or you're being interviewed on someone else's thing. You're pretty.

SPEAKER_02 14:21

You would think I it's so funny. I definitely barely share about my real life. What's people sometimes I'll interact with someone in real life and we'll get into a conversation. Maybe they've listened to my podcast or whatever. And I'll I'm bringing this up now, but they'll I'll start talking about my pets. So they're like, You have a dog and two cats. I never see them on your Instagram. Or my I've interviewed my dad on my podcast because he's a cult survivor and that was relevant. But I don't know. I definitely see other people who are in a similar position to me, just like career-wise, sharing more of their personal life. And sometimes I'm like, Oh, should I like attempt to endear people to me by showing by showing my real life? But then I just I don't know. I I kind of I do feel like I have boundaries for some reason. But I'm I'm glad that I'm glad that people feel like they you're allowed to have boundaries.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

Boundaries are good, but to me at least, you seem open. No, you don't go in depth, but you don't have to either. You at least give a little something.

SPEAKER_02 15:18

Yeah, it just I I just I guess I also feel like ah, people don't need to hear me ramble about my real life. Who cares? There's so there's some Flaubert quote that I bring up sometimes. Let me not butcher it. I'm actually gonna bring up the real Flaubert quote. It's I should really memorize it, but oh yeah. There's a yeah, Gustave Flaubert once said, be regular and orderly in your life so that you may be violent and original in your work.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Oh nice. I love that a lot.

SPEAKER_02 15:48

I'm just like, I don't know. I uh yeah, people don't need to see my boring life.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Boring's a good thing. Because yeah, if it goes too, yeah, could lead to cults. That's true.

SPEAKER_02 15:59

Yeah, when people go out looking for something that's not boring, sometimes they get a little too much of it.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

Or other things happen too, but we won't go too full into that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I say boring is good. I because I like bringing this up because there's so many stereotypes against autism. I do have a schedule that I sometimes stick to, but schedules are nice. Love a schedule, love a calendar, love a list. I'm not in my list era right now. Anyway. I'm not in my list. I have those time periods too of lists and not lists. The only time I have to actually keep track are these interviews because I lose track otherwise. So I have to write them down in multiple places or else I will forget.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

Yes, I I definitely I meticulously prepare my interviews as well. Have to for me.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

Yeah, I've learned a little from you actually on how to do interviews. No way. But I didn't even realize we did similar ways until I listened to Magical Overthinking. I thought I was the only one that did the introduce yourself, but you did it too. But I wasn't aware of that until I actually What do you mean the interviews myself? On magical overthinking, you have most of your guests introduce themselves. You don't introduce them. Oh that was just a thing I did, but no, you do it too.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

Oh yeah. Yeah. Why do I do that? I don't even know. I just I maybe it's because I think it's I think it's fun to hear people identify their work in their own voice. Or maybe another podcast that I love has people do that. I don't know. I don't know why I have people do that.

SPEAKER_01 17:26

I only do that because I find it awkward when someone else introduces you who only has read about you or seen snippets of you or introducing you. It just is awkward to me. But if that's the way people do podcasts, that's fine. I know some people that have had me on their podcast do it that way. But for me, people I actually noticed.

SPEAKER_02 17:46

I noticed when you had me introduce myself in this interview because it normally never happens, but I'm just like, oh, I'll tell you.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

Yeah, I feel better when the other person just says about weird for me to do that.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

Yeah, yeah. Normally, I guess sometimes you it I do try to introduce my friends at a party and things and hype them up.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

They're your friends, that's to be expected. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:09

Anyway, sorry, I've gotten a soft drop case.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Yeah. Okay. And just so you know, I can't read my own handwriting, so I don't know fully what I wrote here. But we'll figure it out. Okay. I have a cheat sheet. I make sure everyone knows. And my handwriting is sloppy. This is a word from your recent published book. Of do you ever feel loose fit after reading a book? And do you have any loose left? There you go. Thank you. Loose left.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

Yes, that's from John Koenig's Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows. I did not pick that up, but yes, there's a chapter in the book where I quote some of John Koenig's beautiful book. It's called the Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows, and it's a book full of made-up neologisms, made-up words for experiences that haven't already been named in English. And yeah, loose left is one of his words that means that melancholy that you feel when you finish a really good book. Yes, oh my God, I feel super loose left often. Well, not as often as I without really picky, but I really I read in an odd way. But yeah, when I love a book, I become obsessed with it. And if I'm not obsessed with a book, I tend not to finish it. But okay, sorry. Yeah, no, I have friends who are really who are very completionist and will finish every book they pick up or they feel guilty. But I've just, yeah, I think I've just come to honor that. I have very particular taste and I don't even stand by my taste. I don't even think I just like what I like, what we were saying earlier. But yeah, there's actually a book that I finished reading last year that I still mourn finishing The Ministry of Time by Kellyanne Bradley. I think I'm I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing her first name right, but it's yeah, really cool sort of historical time travel sci-fi romance, which is not really a genre that I fuck with, but the voice of this book was so delish. And I am sad that I'm sad it ended just purely because of the way that she used language. It was so fun to be in that. So yeah, I feel loose-left about that. I'm trying to find my next read that to be obsessed with. I have read, I read quite a few things this year that I really liked, but nothing that left me quite loose left.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

What about you? I love anything Kaylin Byron. I always read everything of hers. She is in the queer sapphic world of writing. And yes.

SPEAKER_02 20:47

Sorry, I was gonna say actually, I did, it didn't leave me loose left quite, but I did really enjoy a book that I read. Uh oh, I guess it was at the end of last year, which is I don't know if you would like it, but it's this very gay sound.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Yes, I will, automatically.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

It is, it's called Perfume and Pain, which is a name, a title named after this lesbian pulp novel from the 70s. And this but Perfume and Pain, the newer book, is written by Anna Dorn, who's a lesbian LA author, and she's written a bunch of books. She has a very particular style that I really enjoy. The book it takes place in Southern California, and it's about queer writers in my town. And so I I just was like absolutely tickled by it because I felt like I knew the people in it. But anyway, I recommend that. It is it is such an amusing book.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

I had a books, uh books to grammar. I don't know what they are technically called. People that review books for a living that are gay and part of the queer community. I have a little section on my YouTube channel. Channel for that, and one of them did actually say, because it sounds familiar, this exact title. Good. And we did talk about it, but I don't remember it fully because I tend to blank out after interviews. But same. I did write it down once. Good. Yeah. I am gonna have to read it. But do you know how many pages it is? Because I have to do 300 pages as my max.

SPEAKER_02 22:21

It's that long. I'm the same way. There are a few exceptions, but I definitely when it comes to honestly, when it comes to fiction or non-fiction, something has to be a real exception to the rule for me to go past 300 pages. I totally agree with you. This is a snack, it's a short novel. Thank goodness.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Cause yeah, I don't have high attention spans. I yeah, I'm getting myself back into reading. I'm actually reading one that's forcing me to go further in. She's a self-published author that I want to have on here to interview. She is part of the black queer community, just like Caitlin Byron is too. Cool. But yeah, I would like both of them on here too. But yeah, we'll see when I reach out.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

Nice. Good for you. I love, I love, I just think this channel is such a great thing to do. Good job.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

Just so you know, all the interviews eventually. I don't know when, but I'm making sure to forewarn everyone. So when you get the surprise email, it's not an actual surprise because you were forewarned. I am gonna put it on Spotify and everything else like that. Once I get my music done and wrote writes, I can speak, have written the song I would like to have at the beginning for the podcast version, which will only be every time I interview people as part of the podcast version of Jesse's stories. Amazing. That's awesome. That's just me. The only other person that technically works under me is my website designer. That is it. It's just me, otherwise.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

Yeah, it's not easy. I know that all too well. But yeah, maybe one day you'll have a whole staff.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

That's my goal. I want to have a complete, queer, neurodivergent, disabled staff. That's my ultimate goal to get to because I have my publishing company, One this love publishing, and it does exist, and I've published only my books through it so far, but I want to have it free to minorities and to get their work out there. That's so great. That's so great. That's my goal. I'm not there yet. The YouTube channel is a small start, and my memoir hopefully will help add to it. And actually getting my website fully up could help too.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

But yeah, I think people get some people get overwhelmed by how long it takes to build a media platform. But you're right, it just takes time and you just have to start slow. And I I set the bar for myself so low. I really do. I this is gonna sound like a ridiculous statement, but I have far surpassed every goal I've ever set for myself because I love that. I don't I don't mean that in braggadocious way. I mean that because I set the bar for myself so low. And that keeps morale really high. Because I'm always just like, oh, I only I set really low word count goals for myself for the day when I'm writing, so that I never disappoint myself. Because it feels terrible to disappoint yourself and to not be able to say you did what you meant to or that what you set out to do that day. And so I never want to feel that way. I never want to feel like, oh, I suck. And sure enough, I I do still feel that way sometimes. But if I just act, oh, it's I'm doing this very low stakes thing, even my dog could meet this little goal I set for myself today, then I'm just like, oh, I did it. And sometimes I do I end up doing more than that. And yeah, so anyway, starting small and building, I endorse that approach.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

I've started doing that gradually because I used to overwhelm myself too with writing. Right now, since I'm writing, I tend to be writing a lot of books at once. So I have two right now in the publishing process, and then three that I'm writing. So I try to set a goal for each one, but it's still overwhelming on top of this, and then just doing interviews for Escaping Twin Flames and people wanting, since CTV did happen, really wanting interviews now.

SPEAKER_02 26:04

Oh, I really do understand. Yeah. Oh, now that I'm thinking about it, actually, the not sorry, not to go back to the like weird little topic of conversation. I am right, the novel that I'm currently writing has a gay love story in it.

SPEAKER_01 26:17

Oh my gosh, I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

I was just writing a kissing scene yesterday.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Oh my gosh, I'm so excited about that. Yeah, hopefully more people will read gay that way too.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

I hope so, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

Because it's still a very minority read, at least of what I've seen.

SPEAKER_02 26:35

Yeah, let me try to think of the most mainstream gay love stories that I've read in books.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

That are not stereotypical. Because some of them do write very stereotypical but are not that realistic.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

I think I'm I'm blanking, but also I have I have trouble identifying what's mainstream and what's not, because when I get obsessed with something, I think everyone's obsessed with it also, even if it's a really niche thing. So I don't even know what's mainstream.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

I don't know, because with me, at least I've learned most things I like are not mainstream. My sister has introduced me to your writing in the first place, and then I also told her, Yeah, I was on her podcast. You should listen to it. It was fun to do that to her. I did that to her in person of hey, you can look it up. And she did it on her computer. She's really smart, she's a hacker, she's loves language herself. So that makes sense why she liked you so much as a writer and introduced.

SPEAKER_02 27:30

That's awesome. Yeah, that's so great.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

She's very smart. You guys speak very similar too. So when I talk to you, I just feel like I'm talking to my sister.

SPEAKER_02 27:38

Oh, that's so sweet. I would love to meet her. I don't think I I I would I would I would like to hear how I sound to other people.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

You speak her, but I also speak her because we kind of grew up together. Does she have a similar voice to yours? She has a deeper voice to mine. And she's much taller than me. I'm very short. How tall are you? What? How tall are you? I go between five foot two and a half and three because I don't honestly know. So that is all I can tell you. Fair. I'm only 5'1. Woo! I'm taller than you technically. Yeah, no, you're I would love to be five, two and a half. So I bet you anything if we were to stand next to each other would be the same height. Because, like I told you, I don't fully know and I shrink sometimes and I grow sometimes and never the same.

unknown 28:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

Yeah. I wish I could control my shrinking and growing. I wish I could too, because some days I would want to I bet you think I've shrunk because that's what happens with age. So I am guessing I shrunk because I rarely go to the doctor and I rarely check my height. Honestly, same. Honestly, same. I actually could not tell you how tall I am at this moment. Pretty much on the same page fully. But yeah, my sister is to thank for this all, except, yeah. She was shocked that I was on your podcast and I told her how I did it. That's awesome. Love that.

unknown 28:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

But speaking of your recent book, what is your typical day of just getting sitting down, writing, and getting yourself in the zone to finish a novel?

SPEAKER_02 29:04

Yeah. So my process with this novel is a little different so far, because thus far I've only written nonfiction. And with a nonfiction project, you start with a proposal, and that's how you sell the book to a traditional publisher, based on basically this lengthy pitch, which includes a sample chapter and a chapter breakdown. So you kind of know exactly where you're going. And there's an argument that you're trying to convey, a thesis. And yeah, I have historically set myself up on a pretty regimented schedule in order to not just meet but turn in my book early. I like to be early with my deadlines just so that I don't feel stressed or like I'm coming up against an imposing, doom-filled deadline. Yeah, I try to give myself less time so that I have a little slack later. But with this novel, you can dig a novel anywhere. You're just making it up. And I've been thinking about the plot and what I wanna, the world that I want to build and what I want to say on a deeper level with the book for two and a half years, but I only just started writing it six months ago. I was holding this story in my head for years, which is not how the nonfiction process works because every idea that I came up with, I would write it down immediately and use that as fodder for the proposal. But with this, it was just this made-up story in my head that was like just this overly drenched sponge. And then I kind of started writing it very casually without kind of meaning to. I just started taking notes on my phone one day. And then I finally started squeezing out the sponge. And now for some reason I've put myself on this very intense deadline where I want to finish the novel at the first draft of it anyway, by the summer. So I'm on this, I'm on this schedule where I'm like basically writing a chapter a week, and some day sometimes I'm writing every day. Sometimes I'm just writing three days a week because I also have to do my two podcasts and other freelance gigs and things like that. Yeah, there's a rigid schedule, but flexibility within the rigidity. And what helps though is that I just think it's so fun to write. I'm having the best time. I think it's a blast to make up these characters and see where they go. And I do have an outline, so that helps in terms of just keeping me on track. But yeah, I again, I set my writing word count goals for the day really low. I want to write 500 words a day and that's it. Some people, some I I talk to authors sometimes who are like, I have to wake up at 6 a.m. to write 3,000 words before I go off on my day. And I'm just like, oh my God, I would be, I would be in such a self-loathing place if that were my daily goal, because I would just never meet it. I wouldn't either.

SPEAKER_01 32:04

I set mine to a thousand and I haven't even met that yet.

SPEAKER_02 32:08

That's a lot of words. That can be hours. So I just try to be like really, I try to treat myself like I am just like a little dummy and can like barely do anything. And that, yeah, that that helps. But it also helps that I just really love writing this story and I find it so fun to escape into this world that I've made up.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

Which is exciting. And I'm excited to find out what that world ends up being. And actually, when you spoke about authors that do that, I had Rebecca Thorne. She's in the queer, I guess, DD, even though she doesn't do DD, but that's what she writes within queer DD World. She was on my interview thing, this, and she talked about what she does. I think she says 5,000 words, and then she, yeah, it's become her full time because she was made on TikTok. TikTok help she's self-published and now she's with the publisher on that one book that she's already written. Gosh, it's five books total of a series now that she's written fast.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

And she's Yeah, that's it's a different genre. And I can, yeah, and there's there's such voracious demand for that type of book that she probably yeah, has to put herself on these really aggressive word count deadlines. Whereas if you're writing something that's not not going to be consumed so voraciously, frankly, then there's not that same demand. And and they're just different books offer different things. Yeah, I'm definitely taking my time with it, but that's awesome. I that the that career talk like that, it's amazing what book talk has been able to do for certain authors and controversial. I actually just did an episode of Sounds like a Call on the Cult of Book Talk.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

Oh yeah, I saw that. I haven't gotten the chance to listen to it though. I do still listen. I don't always have the time to, but I do still listen. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

Yeah, I don't have the time either. But yeah, that was no, I do listen to I do, I am very involved in every episode that goes live. But yeah, just so much podcasting.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

So much podcasting, yes. But at least you have the words for it all. That's why I write down mine, though I know you do too, partially, at least it shows on our recordings too.

SPEAKER_02 34:22

Yeah, yeah. I write everything down.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

Okay, and then I'll ask it anyways, even though you've answered it. What is a cult and its function? Oh my god, we're back here. We're back here. Yeah, we'll continue going back there anyways. At least until the very last one.

SPEAKER_02 34:36

What is a cult and its function? My whole shtick is that it's incredibly hard to definitively identify what a cult is. Certainly, many people haven't made many attempts to create rubrics to help identify a culture group with charismatic leaders and justify the means philosophies, us versus them mentalities, coercive language, exploitation of various kinds, abuse of various kinds. And that, I argue that type of high control group can show up in places where you might not think to look. And its purpose is to gain and maintain power over a flock. And that can show up in a sort of fringy religious setting, or it could show up in a Silicon Valley startup setting.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

I know they also like to use religion as a cover-up since it's harder to sue a religion than it is to just use, for example, in my personal opinion to cover myself. Twin Flames Universe does have Church of Union, and they do, which they're even on video saying they opened it so they don't have to pay taxes. There are reasons why God and Jesus become so important in cults sometimes, not because they actually care. So true.

SPEAKER_02 35:53

Yeah, that's a trajectory that a lot of these really damaging groups have followed, including Ology and Jonestown. And Jonestown always had a religious aspect, but they did.

SPEAKER_01 36:04

In a sense, because Kool-Aid, that is still if you think of the Jesus blood, yeah. I do have some background in religious.

SPEAKER_02 36:14

That is true, just symbolically, yeah. But Jim Jones started out as the kind of integrationist pastor, and then but yeah, the the what they all have in common is this opportunism. They will follow the path of least resistance, the path that allows them to remain in power the longest. And if that is a religious path, they'll take the religious path. If it's a wellness path, they'll take the wellness path.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

Or religious and wellness combined. There's a lot of those, including with some that are still there's a lot of cults still functioning today.

SPEAKER_02 36:44

But yeah, yeah. On Sounds like a Cult, we have an episode coming out soon. Maybe by this the time this publishes, it'll already be out. But on Kundalini Yoga and the and 3HO, and that's really where spirituality, religion, and wellness intersect. And that's a group that's still at large. It's not it's not at its peak, but yeah. I go. Let's finish up, but we can do a wrap-up. I'll just let the people know that I'm meeting with next that I'm gonna be a second.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

We can do it quick, the wrap-up, because I'll leave down below where they can find you. Okay, sweet. Okay, cool. Okay, we shall do wrap-up time. Cool. So thanks so much for being here and answering my questions and us actually going into fun conversations. Happily. Thanks for having me. And then uh if you liked this interview, please like, subscribe, leave a comment down below, and then embrace your truth, tell your story. You have a story to tell, I have a story to tell. We all have a story to tell. Tell your story. And then peace until next Saturday. Thanks so much for being here, everyone. Uh, I hope you enjoyed this episode with many more to come. If you'd like to help support and grow the podcast and even the YouTube channel, please not only follow, like, subscribe, but please leave a review on Spotify, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, or anywhere you listen to this podcast. Thanks so much for being here. Until next week on Wednesday at 7 a.m. Mountain Standard Time. Peace. Catch you later.