Queer Witchy Books, Cults, and the CRAAP Test — with Wren Jones

Indie author Wren Jones talks queer and witchy fiction, critical thinking, cults, AI, and her upcoming novel Of Swords and Starlight.

Lyrics By: Jessi Hersey

Music By: AJ Music Group

Art By: Zummi

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Listening to voices, stories can be strange. It's good to open up to new stories and finding backstories of how people came to be, only to free the mind of what blinds us with only a glance gives us a chance to see people be who they truly are, from silent voices to shining light. Stories that inspire awareness and change. I welcome you to Jesse Stories, unheard voices.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

All right. Hi, I'm Ren Jones. I am a indie author. I write a lot of queer and witchy books. Woo!

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Witchy rules and queer. And then what are you or what? I can't even read what I wrote. What got you into writing cozy witchy books?

SPEAKER_00 1:28

So I started writing cozy witchy books after my daughter was born. I was one of those true crime girlies for a bit there in my younger years. And I was trying to find something to listen to while I was feeding her and putting her down for bed and things that. And I just couldn't do true crime anymore because I'm holding my baby daughter and I'm like, these are real people. And it just like, you know, you always know they're real people, but it really affected me very deeply. And I was just like, I can't. So I started writing cozy witchy books after my daughter was born. I was one of those true crime girlies for a bit there in my younger years. And I was trying to find something to listen to while I was feeding her and putting her down for bed and things like that. And I just couldn't do true crime anymore because I'm holding my baby daughter and I'm like, these are real people. And it just like, we always know they're real people, but it really affected me very deeply. And I was just like, I can't consume this ethically anymore. So I started getting audiobooks that were cozy mysteries because I've always loved the Agatha Christie and those more cozy, the bad guy deserves it. I was no on-screen guest. And so I started reading a lot of those or listening to them in audio format when I was new Newborn Days with her. And I've always been a writer. So I was like, you know what? I kind of want to write what I want to see. And I didn't see a lot of the witchy cozy mysteries with queer rep and characters that were going through things that I could relate to. And I thought that other people could relate to. So I decided to just write what I wanted to read. I love that. That's a really good reason too.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

That's what I did, but with children's.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Yeah, you gotta read what you would want to see out in the world or write what you want to see out in the world.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Instead of going with everyone else wanting to see in the world, because there are people out there. You do have your audience and your people. You just have to find them sometimes a little harder way to do it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Definitely. No, I think when I started writing these books and intending to be published, because it was always a dream of mine. And I'm like, you know what? I'm actually gonna do it. There are some people who are like, that's not gonna sell as well. And I'm like, I don't okay. I'm still gonna write what I want and what I think the world needs and what people like me needed when I was younger too. And I found my dedicated reader base. I have people who I'm an autobi author for them, which is still crazy to hear. And it's because those stories matter.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Yeah, every story matters. And what does that word mean that you just said? Because I don't know. Autoby.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Oh, it's I've had people tell me I'm an auto-by-author, which means if I write it, they will buy it and read it.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

I love that. That's actually awesome. I didn't know that existed. That's pretty cool. Honestly.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

No, I also shocked when people have messaged me saying that, or they'll pick up my new book and be like, this is my autobuy. And I'm like, really?

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Oh my god. But what's your new book's name? Just so everyone knows.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

My new book is set to release in June 11th. So the podcast will be out and it'll be out in the world, is Of Swords and Starlight, which is a magical girl, but all grown-ups. So they're like Sailor Moon, but in graduate school. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

And I love Sailor Moon vibes and witchy and the title period is great.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

The title is then there is uh so it's Sailor Moon vibes. They harness Starlight and fight moon monsters, but one of the characters is very much a witchy. She makes spell bags and does rituals and things like that. So it still has a lot of the more witchy side to things. Ooh, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

I'm excited about it. I've been keeping track of all your books.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

And reading at least all the backs of them. I will actually be reading as we I will send them to you. So excited. Okay. And are you secretly a magical witch? I feel that's an important question.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

I feel like yes, and maybe not so secretly. I I don't talk about it a lot, but I very much oh, sorry if my EC just turned on and is loud. So I very much am witchy and I would classify myself as a witch. I believe in the power of ritual and the power of the placebo effect and of doing things with intention. So my practice is very much my own. I've borrowed from here and there and everywhere, but it's more to me about the ritual of it and the intention behind it. And I don't want to call it manifesting, but putting out the vibes that I would like and then making actions towards them with the ritual backing me up or my little talisman backing me up and things that I've put intentions into. And then I have rituals in mornings and evenings that I like to do, little cinnamon blows with my daughter and things like that. Very not secretly a witch, I would say.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Now it's gonna be pretty public.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Yes, that's true. I don't talk about it a lot, but now everyone knows.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

You're welcome, everyone.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Yes, exactly. Hurt away.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

And I feel at least because I used to think that way, thinking that things were evil if you don't understand something and rituals or using the word manifest, even coming from a cult myself. I think if it's used the way it was originally intentional intended, and not misused to cohort cohorse, I can speak English, cohort or bring people into your way of thinking one way or the highway, that it's not a bad thing. And people need to, in my personal opinion, take opportunities to learn other people's perspectives. That's why, for fun, put that question in there.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

Yeah, no, I totally agree. Like we were saying before we started recording, we and I are both, like we said, lifelong learners and students. And so it's important to learn as much as you can and see other people's perspectives on things. And I think that the idea of ritual and manifesting when these things that have been adopted by people who do mean to harm others is a sad thing to see. But if you are doing it for your own practice and you're not bothering anybody, you're just doing what you need to do to get through the day, I think it's a really beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Exactly. And if there isn't any bad written articles about you or talk you series or just using examples because I know who also listens. Yeah. So talk you series or lots of people who had the same experiences that were bad, then for a matter of fact, people should pay attention to those sides of things in perspective-wise. It's the thing with so much misinformation today. I feel it's important that we pay attention to both sides. There is a healthy side, because I used to not believe there was a healthy side, but I've healed a lot in my own journey. I've learned that there is a healthy side, that there is a difference between toxic, fail away, run away. Run away, yes. And then there's healthy, and then there is something in between of toxic and healthy that you have to really decipher on your own on is it worth it? Is it not? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

Yeah. And I think that can be a danger too, with a witchy practice sometimes, is some people do fall into a magical thinking, which can be dangerous for them. And so it's just something to if you're going to practice anything, you have to have an open mind to what other people believe and what you believe, and how you may be incorrect sometimes, or maybe you're falling too far into something that's no longer mentally healthy for you. And so I think that's an important thing. I think totally side note, my day job is I'm a high school English teacher. Yes. I'm a huge, yes, critical thinker. And I believe in teaching the kids how to do that. And so one of the things that I always focus on is when they're like, I already know English. I'm like, I'm not teaching you English. I know you know how to speak English. I'm teaching you how to think critically and communicate clearly because you need to do that no matter what you do. I don't care if you want to be a beach bummer, you want to be a CEO, you have to do both those things in order to be healthy and not be swindled by people. I'm just trying to make sure you don't get taken advantage of out there. And so I think that's a huge thing, is just keeping that critical thinking cap on. But like we were talking about earlier, it's easy to fall in when people misuse that stuff as well, which is a danger.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

It is. And it's very common for high control groups or cults because they're the same thing, no matter which word you use, just like brainwash or corrupts of control, same thing, different word. That you can get to know words like love that can be misused, that was misused in the cult I was in. And I will continue calling them the cult because it bugs them and it's fun.

SPEAKER_00 10:03

And I watched that documentary, it's a cult, and they do harmful practices and they hurt people. That's that's bottom line.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

Yeah. There you go. Confirmed. This is someone who's just talking to me today. So there you go. But the friend Jones says it's a cult, so it must be true. And on top of it, and there's articles. I wrote an article before articles became a thing about them, of writing bad articles about them, including their own doing of inviting Vanity Fair into their house, their own doing of it's a cult. That was one of the bigger steps into it. Absolutely. Yeah. So paying attention, like I said, to those right now, thanks to our current government officials, I don't know how to word it in a non-great way. Yeah. Current government people that great, they do the same thing. They have made it so hard for us to decipher between misinformation and true information and upped the antsy of misinformation that most people, if you aren't paying attention to your sources, are finding misinformation and being misinformed and not getting the true story. That's why it's good to check for independent newspapers or anyone not owned by the current government because they currently own a lot of the information coming out right now. Yeah. Just paying attention to those things and not believing everything you read and taking the time to do that. I've been saying this far before this government existed. But make sure to check out your first source, your backup source, your third source, and keep going back until you find the source's source. Yeah, go to the actual source. It works because there is. You can definitely do it. You just have to keep clicking in. I know because I do this with everything I do, including social media posts. I click into the next next to make sure it's okay. And if it's AI, it doesn't make it bad. Just make sure the AI source is a correct source.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

Make sure that it's the correct source, exactly. Because it can pull things from stuff that's not accurate. And I think especially with the amount of misinformation that we have now, it's so funny because a lot of people are like, oh, it's so difficult now. And I was like, No, it was always difficult. If you were doing things properly and you were researching the way you should, it was still difficult back then, too. Before we had the whole waterfall of misinformation, there was still misinformation out there. And with my students, they'll come to me sometimes and be like, Oh my God, did you hear this thing? And I'm like, Did you run that through the crap test? Is it current? Is it accurate? Is it relevant? Who's the source? What's the reason? Run it through the test. And they're like, I didn't. And I'm like, can you go do that now? And they're like, Yes. Like the crap test.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Everyone should do the crap test. Everyone listening, do what Ren set. Do the crap test. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

Current, accurate, relevant. What is the purpose that they wrote it? Are they trying to sell you something? Are they trying to convince you of something? Everyone's trying to sell you or convince you of something. What's their motive? So, yes, you heard it here. Run it through the crap test before you go spreading misinformation or information. I give it the thumbs up. I give it double thumbs up.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

Me too. And on top of that, even having real authors writing, I don't like the AI aspect of AI writing stories when we already exist, which I get that with voice acting and everything else, that we humans exist. And I believe AI's purpose is meant for other things, not replacing humans, but maybe voices for those who don't have voices.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Yes, I think if you're using it for things like that, where it's people with certain disabilities or whatever that they cannot communicate, it's a really useful tool. And that's all AI should be is a tool. It should not replace humans or replace creativity or it should make our lives easier, right? But not easier in the things that we should be struggling with. And I think that's an important thing that people are missing out on is that there are some things that are worth the struggle, like writing, like acting, like creating art. That is the human purpose is to struggle through that and to create. We don't need AI to do that. What we might need AI to do is, like you said, give voices to people who are nonverbal, to give voices to people who cannot communicate the way that they need to. And that is not replacing a struggle that humans should go through. No human should struggle with that. And this is a tool to help them. It's not a tool to help you struggle through the things you're supposed to struggle with.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Exactly. And it's about meeting basic needs. People seem to not understand that. Yeah. Because if you were to walk into a grocery store and you needed an apple and you couldn't say, Can I get that apple? That's a basic need right there. If you don't have that voice, or if you don't have a caregiver or some source of support, that makes it hard. And with people with disabilities, because of financial reasons and thanks to the current governor government, it's even worse. They already had financial issues. Most can't work, anyways. It's harder to find resources that are accessible and available and are becoming harder actually now today. People should definitely know that. It's becoming harder. So it's yeah. If you were to, I'm trying to think of another example. I always use grocery store because everyone does, if you're not rich, goes to the grocery store. But even going to school, like if you want to raise your hand, but you don't have that ability to raise your hands, you could have a seeing eye gaze machine. Sure. To say me without raising your hand, but it's a voice saying me, and that is an AI voice saying me.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

Yeah, exactly. And that's like you said, a basic need being met, right? We I'm a public school teacher. Education is for everybody, food is for everybody. These are things that we all deserve to have. We all deserve to feel comfortable with. And so if you're giving a voice to somebody who cannot ask a question, like you said in a classroom, they can't raise their hands. I would love to hear an AI. Me. Like, yeah, let me come help you. Because it's difficult otherwise. So, like you said, just have these basic necessities, basic needs. And so I think there's a place for AI. It's just not in the creative spaces. And that's correct.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Except there is one side of that because of my day job, as we talked about with working with disability, we do use AI for them to tell a story. So if they can't speak, AI can in fact do the story, they just need to say a few words, even if it's with AI into AI, sometimes it's that way, AI into AI. Or if they have only a few words available of the me high thing, but then something and then they can see it come to life and see their expression happen. Just like here's another example of creativity in AI. So if you don't have the ability to move your hands, there might be like a claw machine to describe it. I don't know what it's actually called. I probably should learn it, but I forget. It's okay. So you have a paintbrush that is an accessible paintbrush, because most of the time, people that have something that's helping them hold something that is AI most of the time, whatever the grip is helping them paint. So that's another idea of the use creatively to AI. See the little toxic slash medium of healing in both of non-toxic and toxic. So with me, there is a certain line of humanity that I fully agree with. And then a certain line of AI helping those who, anyways, don't have those resources, being able to have those resources because they never had them in the first place. They didn't exist and now they exist. So there is the certain line because people with disabilities have stories to tell and they don't always have the resources to tell those stories.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

Absolutely. I think that there's nothing is ever black and white, right? So we can't just blanket statement on everything. There are some things that are black and white, right? There are, yeah. Don't murder, but for the most part, when we talk about nuance of innovation or creativity or expression, there's nuance there, right? And I think that an important thing for us all to do is not only, like I said earlier, to think critically, but also to think with nuance and be open to nuance and hear other people's perspectives on these things because it's very easy for me who is able-bodied and able to work at a computer for long hours to say, oh, you should do that. I can stay up late. I have the ability to. I can use my hands, I have that ability that a lot of people don't have. And so there's nuance to everything with those kind of details versus just staunchly being like 100% never know. I won't change my mind.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

Like correct. Yeah. I will probably heard of that. Yeah. And I like that. We both got to go on a random rant, too.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

Oh my gosh, yes. I'm sorry. I rant a lot.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

No, I love that. I purposely hope that it happens each time. And when it naturally happens, it's even better. Oh my goodness. Oh, wait. And then I have Randomly Back. What's your favorite book that you wrote so far?

SPEAKER_00 19:17

Ooh, so that is okay. I would either say the new one that I just launched, Stars and Star, uh, of Swords and Starlight, is really fun. And it's just a blast. But I would also say that probably the third practical potions, and I know that one might be a little divisive only because they leave their little small town and go somewhere else. And some people weren't quite expecting that. But I really liked the healing that happens in that book between the main characters, and they all get their final arcs in that. And those characters mean so much to me that I think it was just a really good conclusion for them. And so I would say those two are probably my two favorite.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

And what are those two's names? Those are your character names by heart. I don't think people listening will either. That's probably fair.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

So my uh favorite right now is Of Swords and Starlight, which is the Nagical Girl book coming out, and then also Practical Potions and Paranormal Proclivities, which is a mouthful. All of those books are a mouthful, but that's the third one in the Practical Potions Mysteries series. And it's the third and final installment. I'm gonna do little side stories that I'll send out to my newsletters on October and things like that. But for now, their novels are done.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

Exciting. And I did take part in the Kickstarter for the dinosaur one. I don't know when that's humming, but I'm excited about that.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

Yeah, the books are finally at the warehouse. So the tariffs and a lot of other kind of shenanigans got in the way of a couple of things getting to where they needed to get them. But we've got them in the warehouse now, so they're putting them all together. And luckily, I was working with Merrick on that. So they handled the actual shipping because I could not imagine having 900 hardcover books in my house right now. It's putting all of that together in the book boxes is no that my my ADHD brain cannot. So I well, I'm glad that they're handling it. But it is in the warehouse now, so it should be it's in queue to be shipped out soon. And that one is a delightful book, but it required so much research, and none of almost none of it went into the actual book. I love that book, but it's just one of those things where I'm like, gosh, I read so much about Regency customs and outfits and expressions and swear words and what kind of ships did they have, and then like all these stuff about dinosaurs. No, I know so much about dinosaurs now.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

Worth that.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

You know about a bronch bronchosaurus because that's my invisible friend from childhood, the bronchosaurus. The bronchosaurus. I can finally actually say it. It took me forever to learn which one it was. That's a long neck dinosaur. That's my friend Scaly from childhood.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

Why was that one your friend?

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Oh no, when I was little, because Because I didn't make friends as easily. I made myself an invisible friend that we would play out on the field together with. He was a big and he was a he namescaly, a blue big bronchosaurus that could also shrink down and dance with me when needed. He had shrinking and going up abilities, and I could ride him. And yeah, I have a lot of memories as a child with him, besides my dogs and my kids.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

I love that so much. He sounds delightful.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

Figured I'd be even more public about what? Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Have you read Damsels and Dinosaurs yet?

SPEAKER_01 22:34

No, but I love the dinosaur on the cover, therefore I automatically did the kickstart breath.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

Fair enough. The special editions are gorgeous, first of all, because I did get the proof and it's beautiful. But you're gonna love it because there's a tiny T-Rex named Reggie, and he's basically a Pokemon. He follows them around. I'm obsessed with Pokemon. Exactly. So it's like it's dinosaurs, but they're Pokemon, right? They don't have powers, but they are sentient, they can understand most of the time. And the you're gonna actually, if you had a imaginary friend dinosaur as a kid, this book is for you.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

You're gonna and I got the special edition too. That was the first thing I went towards. I looked at all the tiers I went and what's one that I literally go based off of if I'm supporting another writer, which I've done multiple ones who've ended up on my podcast. If I'm doing that, I have to make sure to go towards the one I most liked, and that was the one I most liked. I liked everything that came with it.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

That is literally this book is for you. That's exactly you're who I wrote it for. Kitchen who love dinosaurs, and that's yeah, perfect.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

Name Scaly, but that was the only one I still hyperfixate on Scaly, which I'm gonna have to write in my memoir all because of how hyperfixate.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

I do think you need to write down that you're gonna put Scaly in there and make sure that that goes in there.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

I will.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

I'll just write that in. My long-necked dinosaur in there is named Francesca, but she does wear a bonnet, she's very cute. Isn't Francesca the one on the cover then? That one is Reggie, but they all a lot of them are bonnets. The velociraptors are like yay sized, um, and they have little straw hats and they keep garden pests away.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

So I love all the storyline of it, period.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

Yeah, it's a kind of profile, but it's actually a very fun one. The only reason it's not my favorite is just because when I think about it, I'm like all the research. Oh my god, that was so much research. Oh my god, none of it made it into the book. Oh my god, no one knows how I'm an expert in Regency era.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

Like you should just randomly start doing facts. I love random facts, and on top of that, I have to do so much, I guess, research technically, because I have to check dates, which thankfully media has all that for me. But I have to check dates when certain things happened. If I find those specific, I have to really put a lot of brain power into my brain. And in order to do that, I just have to type out. But going and then forward in time and forwards and time, forwards in time, because that's the way I'm writing my memoir. It's very, it's very well right now it's just forward in time. We'll see if I go back at any time soon. But right now it's forward. But it's just a process and a lot of information. So I get it of the oh, I learned all of that, but I think in my case it might end up being a little different feeling.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

Maybe, maybe look back on it more fondly.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

I think it's gonna be very fun. In my personal opinion, but you know the actual reason why. I do, I do. Okay. Um, here's a fun one that falls into what you pretty much were almost talking about. How do you develop your characters? You can talk about any characters from any of your books or all of them. It's up to you.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Um, so how I develop my characters. Um, I am so I was always like a writer, and even before I could write, I was like a storyteller as a kid. Um, and I just it's gonna sound crazy almost, but like I just would create people, like it kind of like scaly, right? Like I would create like imaginary people and like get to know their personalities and like talk to them and stuff. So like as a kid, I would create like character charts and like I would do every little backstory about them and like what do they fear? What's their favorite, like, you know, snack food and just get to know characters that came to me really, really well. And then I would start to do like exercises um as a teenager where I would put characters that I had created for my novels um in unfamiliar situations. So like I was writing like a dystopia when I was a teen, because of course I was, and um I had them be like in modern worlds ordering a sandwich together and just like how do they all talk to each other and how do I make their voices as distinct as possible? And so um I just became very familiar with like that process. And now as an adult, I don't need to necessarily go through all of that in order to understand who they are. I just kind of create like, um, you know, like, okay, I really like this kind of personality. I want them in this story. And then they come to me. Like I get to know them without all of the processes of creating character charts and making them talk to each other. They just kind of develop their own voices um instinctually. Um, my subconscious is very good at that, I guess. So um, yeah, I would say like a lot of what people like about my books that I've heard is the characters and how real they feel and how they interact with each other and like how distinct they are all are from each other. And I think that that's um kind of where I excel just because I've been working on that since I was a child.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

I love that very much so. With me at least, because I do have a four, technically a four queer sapphic book in the works that I haven't written back to yet. I plan on doing it eventually, but memoir first. Um, but like with my character development, at least I first write the actual book itself, and then I let the character develop naturally in the story, so I unexpectedly take turns without knowing it. Just like actually in my memoir too, the same exact thing happened, but unexpected turns just happen and I let the development happen from there.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Yeah, yeah. If you let your um kind of subconscious do a lot of the work for you, that first draft can take you in weird directions, but it ends up you get to know the characters really well.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

Yeah, and even in ways you didn't expect. And of course, at least to me personally, I believe every single author, every single filmmaker, every single storyteller of any kind. Doesn't matter whether you're just a social media storyteller or whatever your focus is in storytelling, since storytelling's everywhere. I believe that there is a part of yourself or your significant other or people in your lives are there in your story in some sense without you knowing it most of the time.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

Yeah, definitely most of the time, I would say. Um, even if you don't see it, you know, sometimes other people even point it out to you. And you're like, oh I guess that is kind of like that person, or that is kind of me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

Well, you as the author are always in there. I know that for a fact, at least with every book I've read, like with Rebecca Thorne, uh, without even reading fully into her book. I had already figured out who was who in the story. So I even had one personal question of asking her if that was her significant other in her. And she said, Yeah, it was. I liked how bluntly honest she was, but yeah, only and I feel like with every story that as an author, and especially at least thankfully to me personally, I believe queer authors are more honest in who they're writing about versus straight, at least in my personal experience.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

Well, I feel like being queer, um, kind of inherently you have to have that level of honesty. I feel like, you know, because you're honest with yourself and your identity. Um, and you have to do that so many times throughout your life over and over again. And so um I do think it kind of you inherently are very honest about who you are and and what you're about. You know, if you're a storyteller and you're queer, this is something that you've um faced your entire life. And the different challenges that come with those two things, I think necessitate a kind of openness.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

Yeah, like hate you definitely get. I know I've gotten just for my children's book. People thought that I was culting them into pronouns, which I didn't know that hurt children, but apparently that hurts children's children learning pronouns, so it's literally part of the education system. But I did point that out to a few people that left hate. I said, do you use she, her, he, him pronoun?

SPEAKER_00 30:39

They them. Would you like me to respect that? Like, if you know. Um, and I think it's funny because you know, if you're I'm an English teacher, like they them, singular is used. Like we that's not a new thing, that's not a new concept. This is not no, so you know, when people are like that's multiple, I'm like, it's not actually. So um, you're incorrect. Correct. Yeah, I like that you pointed the very brush.

SPEAKER_01 31:07

So well, it's fun also, at least with the one commenter that I did this to, their response was, huh? And what do you mean? I said it's literally part of the education education system. Do you have children? Have you ever gone to school? Do you use pronouns introduce yourself as in just like hi? I'm some people, at least it's becoming a little more common to do he, her, him, she, they, them.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

I appreciate that people have it more open and like in their bios and things like that. I think that's really helpful. And it just it's like a symbol to other people too that this is like a um a thing that we should be open about, you know. And I think that that's part of um, you know, being an advocate for other people is, you know, doing those things and including that kind of language.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

Yeah, and talking about it too, openly. And that's why my podcast exists purposely is talking about the hard stuff and talking about the things that are uncomfortable, even publicly. A lot of people, at least that I've had on here, we've dived into conversations where I know fear was a little bit in them and myself, but we faced it during the interview process and it became public, and it educates people that way as the truer to yourself you are, the truer to I don't know how to word it correctly, the truer to yourself, period, that you are in an interview, even with fear and facing it.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

Absolutely. And I think that there is um a lot to be said for facing your fear publicly too. And I think because I do work with kids, um you you have to be a model for that kind of thing and to show people that it's okay to do it scared. Um, and that it's uh, you know, that it can be scary to share your truths, I think, and to dive into topics that make us uncomfortable is an important thing. And I just think that like modeling that is really important. So to me, that's invaluable to be scared and do it anyway. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

Like with me, my first step at doing that was the docu series. I was scary telling the world, hey, I was amorous. Here's some of my story, because some of it did make it into the docu series. I'm thankful not all of it did, so I could take the opportunity to better educate people with it. But that was my first step of facing my fingers, but it was on a pretty global level.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

That's that flip.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Yeah, by literal fire. But I'm thankful for the opportunity, and I'm thankful I had that chance because I had so many, not only parents because of my mom portion in the docuseries, but families, people of some members that are still in there, they reached out to me. And a lot of people that are queer reached out to me um and wanted to better educate themselves and wanted to better understand things, which was great. I love especially all the queer. I had a lot of non-binary, which I loved, reach out to me. And yeah, I wouldn't have had that opportunity if I wasn't on there. Absolutely. Yeah, so thank you, Cecilia and Inval. Sorry I didn't do it right away, but autism. I can't blame it in this case.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

But no, I think that's really uh that's cool that you did that, and I think that's important.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

Thank you. And thank you for continuing to be so open too. And I have another question for you. Do you have any uh work you are working on right now, book-wise?

SPEAKER_00 34:39

Um, I am kind of working on um a damsels and dinosaurs too. Um yeah, so I can put Scaly in there, just in my personal opinion. I definitely am gonna put Scaly in there. He's gonna be um and I don't know if I can make him shrink, but maybe I can find a way to science that. Um I think you can.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

I believe in you fully completely because scaly needs to be in there.

SPEAKER_00 35:05

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

You know, keep that. Yeah, no, we're gonna As long as he's a blue bronchitis dinosaur with the ability to shrink and get paid. You add whatever you want to that. I am like you full permission publicly, right?

SPEAKER_00 35:18

Yeah, I appreciate that. That's actually fine. I'm sure he'll steal the show.

SPEAKER_01 35:23

Sure. Well, it's Scaley, he's my buddy for a while.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

Of course, yeah. Top notch. No, I think that that's um that's awesome. I'm gonna try to or work on like a shrink race and how I can keep it. I'm totally buying it automatically. That's your autobi book.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

It is absolutely you just mean to put scaly in it. See how it works. I got you. Yeah, already. Now I look forward to it.

SPEAKER_00 35:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

See, everyone buy her second book automatically to find Scaly. We'll see what she does with him.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

Uh I don't know. I've got to make him link kind of important somehow too. I've got the wheels turning. I got this.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

I did it. I'm so excited about that. Oh my gosh, it's like Christmas. Okay. Yeah. I'm very evil pleased.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

That's a good way to live life, honestly, though. Like, you know, it's we're only here a short time. It's just you gotta have fun. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

It's fun to play with things and ideas. You're the perfect person to do scaly, because I don't have a book besides just adding in my memoir publicly already on my 100 voices, but that's not as in-depth as you can go. I think a kid's book about scaly would be pretty cute. I have been having that idea. Maybe I should follow through with that. Now I'm gonna write that down before I back down from that idea. One minute. Holding myself accountable. It's good.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

Scaley children coming well, scaly's gonna be queer in this case. Coming to a bookstore near you when I have no idea. Super gay first has to go through its round of Kickstarter with Ah, but this.

SPEAKER_00 37:11

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

Because the book's already published, but I need to get the finances so we can have this for children so they can have Super Gay.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

I love that. When's your Kickstarter launching? Do you know?

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Uh, near the end of June. I had to finish coming up with I'm having trouble with tears. So if you have advice, please let me know and send me messages. I don't care, email, IG, I don't care. Help. Or I need help.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

I got you. I'll brainstorm some things. Yeah, and I'll I'll look because I've I've backed um a couple of like little plush toys and stuff before. So I'll do some brainstorming for some tiers for you.

SPEAKER_01 37:48

Well, I am adding the book as one tier, and then for a stretch goal to 8,000, um, I'm adding um the second book to Super Y because it's already written and I have some of the beginning stuff already done, like the cover and I think like three or four pages in. But in order to make the second book be published, we have to make it to the stretch goal. So I did at least come up with that, but I'm having trouble with going higher in tiers because I'm making as high as possible and the other three tiers in between to the highest. So it's it's a challenge. And the fact that there's not anything like this, I checked all over Kickstarter or something like this, and with a children's book like that, I'm the first of my kind to do it. That's really cool. So that's why I said help. I've been asking some comics since it's similar to comic. I asked some. You'll see them on here. Actually, they'll probably come after you. They're queer comic book authors. I've asked them for help too, and they've helped me, at least with the beginning brainstorm, but with my processing skills, that's why I don't have any shame in asking for help. So help them.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

I got to. Oh, for sure. Yeah, if you send me what would help me, is send me an email with um like the tiers you have right now, and then I'll brainstorm how to make them awesome.

SPEAKER_01 39:05

Email, I'll do that. And as long as you're okay with this also being, because I keep it pretty raw, so you know on her voice. Okay. So you get full credit for helping me too. I got you. I appreciate it. But it is coming near the end because I wanted to keep it on Pride, so it's gonna still be in June, but it will start near the end. Okay. And have to actually get everything set up, which is a process alone. That is true.

SPEAKER_00 39:33

But it'll be good. You can like carry the the Pride month through. That'll be nice to end. But high note.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

So start it at the end sometime in June. I want it to go for at least a month or longer because I want everyone to have the chance to know. And of course, the podcast is introducing them to it to come. That's true. Yeah, thank you, Ren. I appreciate all your help. You're awesome. Oh, I too. So I'll do an email and I'll also just I guess I can also send you my address through email too at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Yeah, for the books. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 40:06

Okay. And then my next question for you, which is an important one, is how do you find balance as a mom and an author? Because that's a lot of work.

SPEAKER_00 40:14

Yeah, it is. Um, I would say balance is not my strong suit. So um, you know, I'm a high school teacher and I primarily teach um international baccalaureate literature and language, um, which is like the kind of global school. Um, and we have things called learner profiles. And so I'm always like, you know, bringing it back to those. And one of them is balanced, and that's my weakest. Um, because I I kind of uh steam through everything. I'm very um very bold about like when I want something, I go and go and snatch it. So for me, like balancing is tricky. Um, and I lose out on a lot of sleep, is the big one. So um, you know, I have my day job and then kids' stuff, and then after they go to bed, I'm up writing, or I will wake up early to do that. So it's um I try to be present when I am with my kids, I'm with my kids and with my students and with my students, but um, you know, I just I'm very fortunate in that I don't need as much sleep. Um, you know, I don't need a full eight hours. If I get a full eight hours, I do feel groggy. So um, you know, I just I I kind of treat it as like a night job. Um so I like kind of clock in after the kids are in bed and then I do my writing, do all that stuff, and then clock back out and go to bed. I like that.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

Yeah, now it's just hard to figure out with me. I think I've found somewhat, I'm not saying fully, definitely somewhat of a bounce of well, the social life part is the harder one for me. Like I can go into work, even my unpaid work. So podcasts, writing, building my business, getting kickstarted, going. There's a lot going on behind the scenes right now. But doing all that, and then my day job, which is exhausting, and the fact that now there's more hours because it's summer. With me, it's figuring out a time that doesn't mentally strain me before work. So I've been writing night lately, or I do mornings if I have more energy. It all just depends on my abilities, and then having the energy to be social because autism, but ADHD a million things too.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

It's hard to have the battery to to be social, also. So um, I would say that like balance for me is tricky because like sleep goes to the wayside, and so does um my social life sometimes, you know. Like I'm very lucky to have friends who stick with me through times where I'm like, I'm going into a hole for two weeks, but like um, and then I kind of come back and I'm like, hello, I'm back. What happened? You know, like um, so I'm very fortunate that I have friends that that have stuck with me for years um of me kind of cycling through that, which is really I'm just very lucky.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

I have friends like that too. Well, I have two really close ones because I tend to keep the ones that know me the best the closest and that handle my info dump well, though I tend to make friends with the ones that I info dump too. Fun fact. So you know that. Oh one thing. At least my two really close ones. They both have that same idea too. Well, one I actually work with during the day, who technically is my boss, but we at least have a dynamic of we're at work, this is a work relationship right now. Oh, we're at work, this is not a work relationship right now. And then my other one, we like have known each other since we were four years old, so it's a little different idea. But they both, and she's a mom, so there's that. See, I understand that aspect. I got that perspective with my best friend. I personally and I do count my other friend as a best friend too. But they both yeah, they understand that because they struggle with bonds too. But uh with me personally, I like to keep a social life, so I try to plan out. Head of if I can with them at the time because sometimes I can't, at least with my mom best friend, it's a little harder. But with with my friend, yeah, I work with go ahead. I was just saying with my friend I work with, it's a little easier because we see each other at work. And I could just ask up front. I normally do it if I'm clocked out before I clock in. I always tell her I'm clocked in, therefore I can do this. I actually love that so much. And then she goes, okay. And it's funny our dynamic because her and I, and she'll know now I'm talking about her. You're welcome. Friend, Michelle. I said your name, huh? Anyway. With her, we have a lot of sass. We're sassy together. And it's funny because everyone at work laughs at us because we are so sassy. And now they think they could go and do it to me too, thanks to her. But that's okay. I'm fine with it. Since we're both in authority roles at our job. That kind of works out then, I guess. Yeah, it's pretty hilarious because now they give me a hard time because she gives me a hard time. And I give it right back to all of As you should.

SPEAKER_00 45:07

Yeah. That's part of a loving relationship sometimes, is being sassy to each other.

SPEAKER_01 45:12

Well, yeah, the sass is hot between shoulder. I love that. Well, at least if we both have the energy too. If we don't, it's pretty much a hi.

SPEAKER_00 45:23

At least you know that with each other. It's good to have a friend that you also have that dynamic where you don't always have to be one thing. You can just be like, I'm tired today, and they're like, cool.

SPEAKER_01 45:31

Yeah, we even have a few days where that word literally comes out of our mouth. I love that. Yeah, I told you we're sassy. Like Arcus, if I compare my other friend, uh Katie, I can at least say their names. No one knows their whole legal names. But Katie, like with her, it's a little softer. Like there's not, well, yeah, Katie has sass. I know she's got a lot more inside of her, but she's the well, Michelle's also they're equally like that. They're both very kind human beings, sweet, caring about everyone, human beings, but they express it a little differently. But they're also like the same person. I've told them both that multiple times because they both like a lot of the same things and do a lot of the same exact things. I've even told Michelle, whatever I tell you, I have to tell Katie because I know you're both gonna do the same thing. But even though, like, yeah, one's a mom, one's not, they're the same level, same everything. It's hilarious, actually. Cool, I kind of love that. Yeah, but yeah, like I know Katie has SAS deep inside her. I've seen it come out, but she suppresses it. So I hope someday it comes fully out. And Katie, I hope you're listening to this if you have time. Michelle listens to this, but she I don't know yet.

SPEAKER_00 46:50

This is our test, Katie. Text randomly.

SPEAKER_01 46:53

Yeah, you're being tested, Katie. And make sure to go on social media, please, Katie. And Michelle, you know why. They don't do social media. That's awesome. Michelle's in better, she gets full credit for that. But anyways. My next question for you is where can people find you on social media and everywhere so they can follow you and support you? And if you have any Kickstarters or anything coming up, please let them know.

SPEAKER_00 47:19

I'd be good. For sure. Um, so yeah, you can find me on Instagram at Ren Jones Brights. Um, and I'm no longer on TikTok. Um I don't um that gave me the ick and I have not gone back. Um it is icky. It is icky. Um, so that is where I'm most um, you know, predominantly on is um Instagram. I post on there pretty regularly. Um I have a newsletter and I don't do monthly updates or anything like that. It's just very important information only. Um, and then some like short stories that are gonna be coming out about the practical potions characters if you like them. Um and then a Kickstarter. I'm thinking about doing one for um the new book of Swords of Starlight just because it's so pretty. I think it would make a really pretty special edition, but I don't have a date for that yet. That's so exciting.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

Keep me up to date on that.

SPEAKER_00 48:07

I will. I'll let you know. Because the cover itself is so beautiful. I'm like, oh, I could do so many things, holographic edges, spoiling sparkles. You gotta do a greenblock sparkles, more character art. Like, I was just this is gonna be great. So I don't have a date for that yet, but I do hope to um get all my ducks in a row and launch that eventually.

SPEAKER_01 48:27

Yeah, well, thank you so much for being here, Ren.

SPEAKER_00 48:31

Thank you so much. I really appreciated your time and just having me on. And this has been really, really wonderful. Thank you for making me feel so comfortable.

SPEAKER_01 48:38

Yay, I'm excited about that. And for those listening, if you haven't already, please, please, please go leave a five-star review of listening, whatever you've listened to. I know with Spotify, if you listen once, you can leave a review, help bring in more listeners, or if you have friends, have them join or run if you know anyone to do this.

SPEAKER_00 49:00

Yeah, no, I'm gonna be sharing this everywhere. Um, and yeah, I mean, like that's my sister has a podcast um as well, so I know how important it is to do the ratings. So yeah, give this one five stars because it's so good. Um, and comment, engage, share it, um, all that stuff. So help them for the support too.

SPEAKER_01 49:18

I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 49:19

Yay! Okay. Now we will do.