Queering Shakespeare: Roan on Theater, Identity & Stage Combat!

In this episode Rowen sits down with Jessi to talk Shakespeare, mortal combat and finding empowerment through representation.

Lyrics By: Jessi Hersey

Music By: AJ Music Group

Artwork By: Klaus

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Listening to voices, stories can be strange. It's good to open up to new stories and finding backstories of how people came to be, only to free the mind of what blinds us with only a glance that gives us a chance to see people be who they truly are, from silent voices to shining light. Stories that inspire awareness and change. I welcome you to Jesse Stories, Unheard Voices. Hello there. If you could introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Yeah. So my name is Bex Rowan. I use the he pronouns. I'm a Purdue graduate. I'm a writer and actor combatant, producer, teacher, Shakespeare and stage combat chaos goblin. My interests involve querying Shakespeare and other classical texts and interrogating what shifts in staged violence and intimacy with trans and a spec participants. Completed future training with Dooling Arts International so I can teach people how to swing swords and not hurt each other. And yeah, I've run a theater company that was able to pay everyone $20 an hour with just individual donations and got three world premieres and 14 or so international publications at this point. So I do a lot of things.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

You are very clearly. What inspired you to do pay what you can service?

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Yeah, so I've done a lot of work in free outdoor theater specifically. It overlaps a lot with with the Shakespeare world. But so I've gotten to see people who would never be able to access live theater be able to do so because the theater comes to their part of town and they don't even have to try to catch a bus or anything. It's just there. And so that has been really, really, really impactful. And I've been able to since I graduated, I've been working almost every single month in theater since I graduated, which is insanely lucky. But I'm also by no means from any sort of independently wealthy situation. So I have had to turn down as much or more theater work that I really wanted to do because I couldn't afford to travel or there's no housing attached or whatever. Using Shakespeare to teach violence prevention or roles that were written specifically for non-binary actors, and that I just the theater is small, they can only pay a hundred bucks, and that's it. And so I got to a point where I'm I'm actually in the middle of trying to navigate what I what I do from here. Because I've seen from those free Shakespeare things and the things that I've been able to do that the healing that free theater can do is unlike anything I've seen anywhere else. And I wanted to keep sharing those stories that make a difference without having to wait for trying to get it through a theater company because of how playwriting production things can work sometimes. So I was like, well, hey, what if I just do it myself? So I basically took looked at the stories that I have, like the plays, the poems, the books that I I have because I've written them, and was like, why not take what I learned from running my theater company and make an online art library? So again, we're re we're reducing that geographical barrier because now it's just online. And then my my compromise between like, okay, I do need to make a living off this, but also I still want to make it accessible was that that pay what you can structure. And like, boy, am I learning a lot about patience because it has only been up for a month. And I like I have two people who have subscribed, which is awesome, and like they are at different tiers, which is like cool. Okay, so that pay what you can structure was a good idea because that's allowing people to like help support me without like straining their own budgets. And I am having a ton of fun with it because like I'm getting to do like free live streams of the plays that I'm doing. I had one person who watched it who was like, I just learned a ton like from just like a silly little play that I put together. So yeah, it's really cool to see where your community turns out for you. And I am betting my livelihood on this because finding a day job has not worked, but everything that I've been like, I'm gonna do it myself, like has worked. Well, that's a good thing, at least. Yeah, and it's really cool to be able to create another space where you know I wanted to create a space where I can use the stories that I write to help heal some of the social divides and you know, making a space where good old Midwest Christians can show up as some of the loudest cheerleaders for the trans folks doing a Dungeons and Dragons play in a church. Oh my god. Which has already happened! I did that!

SPEAKER_01 4:41

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Yeah, I wanted to to make that more accessible to anyone who has an internet connection, and so that's where the the Pei Wichi Can Rogish Gabba stores came from. Which is pretty great. I like your website, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

Well, you're in Canvas. Well, you did great. Mine is still in the works, my website, because I am also trying to make my though I do have a day job working with kids of special needs. Well, disabilities is a better term to use, as I am disabled myself, so I can say that. But yeah, that's my day job. But because it just financially, anyways, you don't make a lot helping others in the first place. I'm trying to get my business running. So I I understand you. I might not be in the looking for a job field, but the working and then working. I don't know how to describe that correctly. That's that's what one gets. That's there you go. You're welcome. Let's see. Do you have a favorite story to share from your awesomeness of Shakespeare or D D or wider rate of things or multiple?

SPEAKER_00 5:40

Yeah, I got the I got the blessing of getting to be a touring actor teacher for a year. That was my job right out of undergrad out in Ohio. So I was in a different school every week, rotating teaching partners. So we're just changing changing up who we were teaching with among the team. And so because we're rolling into the school at 7 a.m. sometimes or a little earlier, the sun's not even fully up yet. We're like, okay, we're also exhausted as we're like rolling into the school. Um, but we have to be high energy when the when the students get there to be like, we're gonna do some Shakespeare. All the desks in the room. So I I would wear my pronoun pin. I got a bad shoulder from an injury, and so like because we were doing some stage combat, because we're doing like Romeo and Juliet and Hamlet and Macbeth, and like I would just have my pronoun pin on me to like a help the the teaching staff because we're only in the school for a week, and also to remind my my fight partners, hey, this is the bad one, don't bunk it with the sword. Like, and it was so cool to see, even if nobody said anything, you you could just tell some of the kids in the class would just like see it and then just like sit up a little taller or just like relax a little bit. And I had one kid who pulled me aside after like Monday, so I've like been around this student for like half an hour, pulled me aside and was like, hey, I see your pronoun pin, and like because I see you fully out, I know I'm gonna be okay. And like we were immediately just like crying in the hallway together of like me and the other teacher who were there, and I looked at that, I looked at that student and I was like, you are why I took this job, because like I didn't have this touring artist program at my high school, and like so I had no idea that like A, you could be an actor professionally, or B that like I didn't see any examples of like trans or A Row or Ace adults coming through, not until college, and so like getting to be that little bit of hope for somebody else is like that. Story is like the crystallization of like why I do what I do.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

I love that. That's awesome, honestly, because we do we need more rep. Rep all the way. Oh yeah, in everywhere, in every part of the industry. I would say queer disabled. I like combining both. We need we need both more and more and more, and more they them, and he let's see. Oh you already covered that, but that's okay. I'm gonna ask it anyways. What kind of stories do you do your services cover?

SPEAKER_00 8:01

Yeah, so like I tend to sit in the like querying that classical sort of adaptations or response pieces like sequels or like alternate timelines and stuff. I also do a lot in like the fantasy adventure genres. Like anytime I can put a sword in a trans person's hand, I'm like, let's do it. And I'm also like really message-driven. So I love trying to like emulate stories like like Inside Out or like Nimona or Lord of the Rings, like stories that like even if it's like a fun, we're fighting dragons and shape shifting, or you know, like whatever it is, but like the the story itself and the character's journey are like helping train our collective like emotional intelligence and our strength for like social justice. And I'm also like as an editor, like I've read a much wider scope, like I've worked on plays and fictions and poetries. I don't tend to do like horror or romance stuff just because like I'm a particular brand of Aero Ace that I'm like I know I'm not the most helpful person for this genre. And then also like I have a good amount of of stories that are like more in the nonfiction, because I focus on like trans and a spec education and like covering some of like the 101 level stuff of like what is a spec, what is aromantic, what is asexual, like what's the difference between a trans man and trans masculine? Cause like, and focusing on the interaction of like where my non-binary Aero Ace identities overlap specifically in theater, because like that's my experience, so that's what I can be like this is the thing that I know really well. And here it is.

unknown 9:30

Here it is.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

I like that a lot. Oh, what is your artistic process in everything you do? So it can go to all your wide range of things, whatever you want to talk about.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Yeah, I I try to lead everything, every process that I do has sort of the underpinnings of curiosity and teamwork. I ask a ton of questions. I I recently realized that because I'm really good at anxiety spiraling with the whole what if, what if, what if, not the world is ending. And it's so easy to like get in that my mom calls it the the merry-go-round of despair. Oh, I like that.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Honestly, that's really good.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

And I I love that metaphor because it's like, first off, it makes me giggle because it's like the merry-go-round of despair, but it's also a reminder that cool, we can slow the merry-go-round down and then we can step off of it safely, and we don't have to stay on the merry-go-round. Easier said than done, but it does help. Oh, yeah. And I I started realizing that a lot of the times when I would get stuck on a writing project, if I started using that what if viral in a constructive sense, it would help me break through writer's block every single time. So I have started just asking a ask a bunch of questions, draft the first take, whether it's a writing project or character study for a play that I'm about to do. Okay, cool. Now ask more questions and then revise it, and then just a loop of that. And having those questions work off of a group, because especially theater is a really you have to be collaborative even on a one-person show. Like I've got to understudy a one-person show, there were 30 people working on it. Like, and I find that my best strides in improving on those drafts, whether it's actually writing or whatever else I'm doing, is much stronger when I'm asking those questions in a group. Because then you can build off of each other and get outside perspective. And I'm an external processor, so I'm not necessarily gonna connect the dots right away unless I say it out loud enough or I hear it reflected back to me. So yeah, that curiosity and teamwork is what I go with. Those are very important.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

I have a bottom-up, so all the dots don't always click. Sometimes I have to also do a little external, sometimes that doesn't work either. Sometimes someone just needs to flat out, go, Jesse, this is what it is. And then I go, Okay, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Yeah, sometimes that's right, okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Yeah, because you get the ending piece first as a bottom-up thinker. So you don't get all the pieces from beginning, middle. You just get the end, and you don't know always where that started. Sure. Let's see. Oh, what advice do you have for up-and-coming queer actors?

SPEAKER_00 12:02

Hee hee hee, keep going. You're doing great. And also, I this is a recent lesson that I have learned or that I have finally clicked into place the more I talk to people. Lean into your queerness as your superpower and as part of your casting type. Not in the sense of I can play the K best friend. Like, I'm not saying slot yourself into just that. We all know there's more that you can do. But the number of roles that I have gotten and dream roles that were an absolute fit for me, just because I just talked about how me being a trans, masculine, non-binary, Aero Ace person brought a fresh take on the character. I mean, it is precisely how I booked my dream role in Shakespeare in Love. I got to play the the matinee idol that the only cisgender male actors were getting called back for. And I was like, I think I would like to read for this character, please. And the director was like, if we have time, and I went, sure, there's a lot of people, fine. But I planted the seed and then we got to callbacks. And she was like, Yeah, we we need another Ned Allen. Can you come in and and and and do it since you're here? And I was like, heheheheh, yes, I will. And she told me afterwards that she was like, Oh, I wasn't really sure. Like, I gave you the audition as a as the courtesy because I know you. Because it was in school. And she was like, But after you walked in and started reading, I looked at our text coach and was like, there's no other option. We have to take them. Like, and it I'm playing Romeo out in New Hampshire and advice to the players in the summer of 2026, literally because the director reached out and was like, Hey, I saw you write on Instagram about how Romeo can be an asexual character, and I want to hire you so we can stage that. And I'm not changing the character at any point in these. I'm like, here's the places in the text where this boy could be ace. Like there's a lot of points in there. Oh yeah, I'm like, his language stays so much more in the flowery romantic imagery that especially if you compare his language to Juliet's, it's like between the two of them, they have very different language about the relationship. And so I always look at fine, do your research, like find the truth of the text, what draws your eye, what you're curious about, what you're like, what does this mean? Ask those questions and then figure out how your queerness is aligning with that truth of the text, and then talk about it because you probably surprise a few people, and then they'll start thinking about it and they'll go, Wait, but I I get it now, and that makes so much sense. And yeah, do you want to do this? I like that. That is awesome, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

Especially the Romeo. Because when I was younger, I did obsessively read Shakespeare and language is used. Yeah, Shakespeare was the first language I understood. But with Romeo, just his language in general, it's very interesting, especially if you just focus on his textual part and the plays versus hers. And like you said, they are very different, and I could definitely see the ace and yeah, non-binary.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

She's so pretty. I'm like, I I'm very excited to play with okay, high school age student. Are you is this actually romantic attraction, even, or have you conflated aesthetic attraction with what you everybody else is talking about, and you think, oh, I think this person's so pretty and I want to be near them, is romantic attraction. Because I may or may not have done that exact thing. And so I'm like, oh buddy, we might have some we might have some learning to do here.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

I feel like a lot of us have done the same thing Romeo has done of ooh, she's pretty. I'm gonna talk to her lots and try to convince her to also like me too. Yeah, that's mainly what he's doing, at least in my personal opinion, for the first, I guess, part one. I have not read all the acts. Act one, he's especially just pining over her and going, I love you, you're pretty, you wanna be with me now? Cool, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:57

Yeah, can I just be around you all the time because you're so pretty?

SPEAKER_01 16:01

I think a lot of us, at least in the queer community, do that. I don't know straight people do that. I I can't speak for them, but I don't know. I just know a lot of queer people do that. You're pretty. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

You're pretty. Can I just spend all of my time with you?

SPEAKER_01 16:15

Yes, all our our brain goes off. Yeah, you're pretty. Oh, okay. I love that so much. I've never gotten to talk to anyone about Shakespeare like this. That's so fun. Okay. Oh yeah. Well, just like with Hamlet, with me, I count Hamlet as the emo boy of Shakespeare because all he does is come up with, I'm gonna cry about this now. Now I'm gonna think about death because of my dad, the famous quote, well, speech of his. And then I'm gonna cry again, even though I pretty much talked Ophelia into her death, but that's okay. I'm I'm gonna anyways pout about me not taking responsibility for what I did to her, but it's alright.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

Right. And also he has, you know, like man delights not me, no nor woman neither. And it's like I've seen a full Dr. Ali O'Mara did a full dissertation on Hamlet being a side.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

I need to see that dissertation. I like all the perspectives on everything, except for when straight people try to take over Shakespeare's narrative, because they don't, in my personal opinion, shouldn't be doing that since he was by slash, in my personal opinion, gay, but it's right time period.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

I love there's a there's a oh gosh, oh gosh. I know the acronym is ACMRS. Is it ARIZ? There's a round table on YouTube that A C M R S. I'm gonna find it. That's the early Yes, Arizona Center for Medieval and Renaissance Studies did a round table with Dr. Omera and several other scholars about early modern asexuality and performance, is the title of the round table. And so there's several Shakespeare plays that get sort of broken down between different scholars' presentations on that. My favorite is that Eliza Blake talks about Muchado and Benedict and Beatrice being ace.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Yeah. Fascinating. Well, I thought that he technically has, because that's much to do is a lot like Twelfth Night. To me, they're pretty much the same play, except he changes characters' names and puts them in a different setting. As far as I'm concerned, this is just my own personal take on it. And there's no twins in Muchadoo. Yes, that too, but it feels like the story that he was telling was the same. Very much to do, just very slight differences, not too many.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

Just like the mistaken identities and the no, I'm not a I mean, a lot of his comedies have some form of maybe it's not a perfect love triangle like Twelfth Night, but that the one person who's pining after the other person, and then person B is like, I don't want to talk to you, person A, because I'm in love with person C, and like Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

I feel like he did that based off of the young man that he had a thing for of I pine after you, and nope, I don't like you. I like this person here. And then his wife was I pine after you, but I don't like you, but I like that person over there. I think he based that off of his own life, that's why he did it twice. Because he's trying to work through his own stuff, just like technically Romeo and Juliet for me personally, psychology point of view, because I do at least have that part of him working through his children's tests, or Romeo and Juliet named after both of his kids. Yes, I have obsession with Shakespeare. I still know a lot of my history and information because I only was obsessed through Shakespeare most of my life because that was the language I understood.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

Yeah, and I love the the verse itself, is just it's easier for me to memorize Shakespeare lines than most contemporary lines, and I think a lot of it is because of the the the rhythm to it. And I also like, yeah, my mom like read Shakespeare out loud to me when I was a baby. And so I grew up hearing that verse just all the time, and so like I think that's part of why it's it's it feels like a more natural language for me to learn because that that rhythm is just even when it's not the perfect iambic pentameter, it's still oh my gosh, I can get like it can go on forever. But I I like having the rhythm there because it tells me when I've substituted the wrong word in the line. Because I'm like, oh wait, okay, I know this line is supposed to go da da da da da da da da da, and that is not what I just said. Okay, where did I goof? That's funny.

unknown 20:20

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Well, and that's like his sonnets too, because I like the I can't say the word without me sounding weird. I yep, no, but Iambic pentameter. There you go, you can say it correctly, I cannot. But the rhythm is one part that I've always loved about Shakespeare, and the fact that, in my personal opinion, no one, unless you're a rapper, like I think Doshi has reached rhythmic of Shakespeare in her rap, but I don't think anyone else has written the rhythmic of Shakespeare, in my personal opinion.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Yeah, and it's having attempted to write a verse play that has not yet seen the light of day because I got into it and went, oh, this is hard. I tried doing eventually get to it, but it's not easy.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

It's very hard. I tried doing that in middle school and high school. I tried writing and I went, screw it, I'm just gonna do my own version.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

And that's it. I've read this is why Shakespeare goose plays with the verse so much. It's hard to stick to that rigid structure and keep it making any sense.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

Yeah, especially with the rhymes that he does. Like sonnets a little easier because you can do every other line and it can still be a sonnet, and you can tell an entire story within the sonnet itself, which I wrote those in elementary school, but yeah, so there is that, yeah. See, we we think Shakespeare. Let's see. Oh, what advice would you give your younger self?

SPEAKER_00 21:40

Oh, I think as much as they would hate to hear it, be patient. Well, not just be patient and like be patient because you're you're gonna be okay. Like the you've you've got a lot of dreams and you're still trying to figure out what to do and what to focus on, and you'll you'll figure it out. Like it's gonna take some time. You keep asking the questions that you're asking, you follow the new questions that come up, and and you'll figure out where you want to go.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

What is your favorite course you made on your website?

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Yes, I haven't. I am I'm still trying to dig into digital courses, but I've done some in because I'm a stage combat teacher. So I've done some stage combat classes, both as gay and a co-teacher, and then also like a head instructor, and they're so much fun. I yeah, it's it's a special place because you're you're witnessing people you're growing a ton in a very short period of time, especially if you're in your an intensive situation where you know a national workshop you can be learning for dueling arts, you learn six weapons disciplines in two weeks. Like it's a like, and and you're putting 12 to 15 training hours in on each weapon. Like it's it's intense. And and and you know, your stage combat is training, you know, partnership and communication, and a lot of times non-verbal communication because you have to stick to the lines of the script. And so if something goes wrong, if you forget the choreography, how do you communicate your partner? Hold on, hold on, hold on, like you know, and how do you stay in character and navigate around the you know the brain, you know, spacing? You're also training physical ability and conditioning because swords are only a couple pounds, but when you're holding that at the full extent of your arm in a full lunge, that can get tiring. You're also training, you're adding historical knowledge, especially with the the training that I come from. Dueling arts does a lot of very specific focus on these techniques would have historically been used with this particular kind of sword because of the way that the sword is built. So a big, heavy broad sword is not gonna use the same techniques as a really tiny, light, almost fencing foil style of a small sword. Because they're two very different, they move differently. You know, you're also training acting and performance and vocal training, because you know, you have I I like to tell my students, I need you to make noise so that I know you're still conscious. I need you to breathe, please. Breathing to just a little bit, tiny bit. Yeah, so you're you're learning, especially if you have never done stage combat before. And I've worked with a lot of students who this is also their first time acting, and so you hit deer in the headlights on the first couple days of like, you want me to do what? And it's my favorite thing to just watch everyone at their own pace grow in their confidence and you know, getting to see a student who at the start of the week was like, Oh, well, I'm not an actor, so I'm not gonna be good at this, to being to getting comfortable with like, this is my first time acting, so I'm gonna have fun and make some goofy choices, and I'm gonna be a little tooth fairy fighting over a tooth, you know, getting to see people like I was TA in a single rapier class at school, and one of one of my most introverted did a little bit of acting, but mostly was a stage manager behind the scenes, like very shy, very self-deprecating person. We put a sword in their hand, and I have never seen so much joy on their face of just their eyes lit up, they stood taller, like all of their sort of trying to hide melted away. And they caught on to the drills faster than anyone I've ever seen. And they were just when they realized that it was clicking naturally with them and they were getting it and they were doing it well, they just started laughing because they were like, This is so I didn't know I was gonna be good at this because it's so far outside my comfort zone. And getting to see that growth is just it's so fun.

SPEAKER_01 25:36

So fun and excitement. And you have that horsewise, right, on your website of battle.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

Oh yeah, I've got so many of the pictures on my website are me fighting. I it's also funny because I'm only five foot two, and so I'm a very small fighter, which is hilarious because usually I end up I don't when was the last time I fought somebody who was within a half a foot of my height? Like most of the time I'm fighting people who are six foot or t like I fought someone who was six foot seven while I was at school. I'm about to go play Percy Jackson in Kentucky, and I'm gonna be fighting another person who's six foot seven there. I'm like, it is so funny getting to be the tiny little against these people who are just like, I really that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Well, technically I'm taller than you, so thanks for giving me confidence on that. Only my inch, but still taller by an inch. Yeah, five foot three. Sometimes I'm five foot three and a half. I don't understand when the half comes up, but it sometimes does. So that's why, yeah, I don't I don't understand it. Most people don't understand it when I explain it to them either, and I go, I don't know. That's just how it goes. Sometimes I'm a half inch taller than what I'm supposed to be, and sometimes I am five foot three. It it varies. I don't, yeah, I don't understand it. I can't do the math of why that happens, but anyway, and then where can everyone find you? And just so everyone knows, all links shall be below to go check out services. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

I'm I'm on Instagram at Bex B-E-K-S.4, the number four, real, so it's Bex for real. And then my website is Bex Rowan B E K S R O E N dot org.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Yay. Well, thank you so much for being here. And uh thanks for having me. I'm gonna do yeah, we should do a little bit of the way tomorrow.

unknown 27:22

I've got a story to tell you.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

Got a story to tell. Together we rise and telling our stories. Thanks so much for being here, everyone. Till next Saturday at 10 a.m. Eastern Standard Time. Bye. Thanks so much for being here, everyone. Uh, I hope you enjoyed this episode with many more to come. If you'd like to help support and grow the podcast and even the YouTube channel, please not only follow, like, subscribe, but please leave a review on Spotify, YouTube, Apple Podcasts, or anywhere you listen to this podcast. Thanks so much for being here. Until next week, on Wednesday at 7 a.m. Mountain Standard Time. Please catch you later.