Jordan Abel

This episode features Jordan Abel, ’08 BA, a queer Nisga’a writer from Vancouver. He is the author of The Place of Scraps (winner of the Dorothy Livesay Poetry Prize), Un/inhabited, and Injun (winner of the Griffin Poetry Prize). NISHGA won both the Hubert Evans Non-Fiction Prize and the VMI Betsy Warland Between Genres award, and was a finalist for the Hilary Weston Writers’ Trust Prize for Nonfiction, the Wilfrid Eggleston Award for Nonfiction, and the Roderick Haig-Brown Regional Prize. Abel’s work has been published in numerous journals and magazines—including Canadian Literature, The Capilano Review, and The Fiddlehead—and his work has been anthologized widely, including The Broadview Introduction to Literature. 

Abel completed a Ph.D. at Simon Fraser University in 2019, and is currently an Associate Professor in the Department of English and Film Studies at the University of Alberta where he teaches Indigenous Literatures, Research-Creation, and Creative Writing.

In this episode, we talk about his groundbreaking book, NISHGA, how important self-care is when writing difficult material (and why Jordan didn’t follow his own advice) and the importance of mentorship as an author.

This podcast is brought to you by the University of Alberta Alumni Association.  

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Transcript

Speaker 2 0:44

Hello, I'm the host of U of A Read's Katy Yachimec-Farries. Today's episode features Jordan Abel, an award-winning author whose work explores memory, language, and the lasting impacts of colonialism. We discuss his groundbreaking book NISHGA, a genre-bending work that weaves together poetry, personal history, and archival fragments to explore identity, urban indigeneity, and the echoes of colonial record keeping. This is a conversation about what gets remembered, what gets lost, and what it takes to piece it back together again. Let's dive in. Jordan, welcome to U of A Reads. You know, what what's your story with writing? You know, where did it sort of come from? Uh, what was your introduction into um sort of the world of writing and what provided that drive to become a published writer?

Speaker 1:41

So there's kind of two I have two stories uh or two points of origin. Uh so the the first one is that as a kid, I always loved books and I loved reading. And I also I don't I don't know how it happened, but I love writing from like a very early age. Like one of my earliest memories of writing comes from like maybe when I was like six or seven years old, and like my mom had taken taken me somewhere to like hang out with somebody, and I was just like at uh a like you know, one of her friends like kitchen tables, and I just wrote, you know, a like a like a a story or like I was just you know really into writing down stories. Uh so I I guess you know, I I I guess as just like a human being, I've been like really uh into expressing myself creatively in that way for basically as long as I can remember. Uh and and I always like I was always in like like more so than any other art. Like I I wasn't into painting really or drawing, you know, I wasn't into like creating music, but you know, I was always like I always got a lot of uh energy out of of writing and uh and creating that way. Um and and and also you know, as a as a kid, I was also like really fascinated with books. Like I thought it was like really kind of mind blowing that like you could go to like a used bookstore or like a value village or something and pick up a book that had been written like 30 years ago, and that you know I could read it, you know, 30 years later 30 years later and it would be the same, and that you know that work would just exist in the world. And I thought that that was really cool. Um so so that's kind of like the first, yeah, that's like the first part. The the second part is that uh I when I when I started uh or like sometime during my undergrad degree, uh so I I did a a degree, undergrad degree in English and also a minor in creative writing. Uh and I I wasn't really sure what I was gonna do with my degree, and I I kind of found my way into like English and literary studies first. Uh, and then I started taking these creative writing classes. Uh, and and those those classes were really eye-opening because I felt like, you know, I could I could finally get some feedback on the kind of writing that I was doing. And people would tell me what they what you know how they thought I was doing, uh, and I could kind of start to improve a little bit. And I I had this moment where I where I really felt like, oh, I can, you know, I can try to get better. I can try to, you know, see where this can take me. Uh, and and my um, yeah, my my ex experience in though in those spaces, you know, was informed mostly by my writing of uh short essays and also short stories and you know lyric kinds of poetry. Uh and and those, yeah, those those you know, those forms led me to other forms and led me to other uh areas of interest. Uh and I don't know, it it feels like it happened really quickly, but I I made a very conscious decision like during my undergrad that I would try really hard to see how far I could take writing. And I I worked at it all the time. Um and and looking back on it, you know, some of that work uh was really productive. And some of it was less productive.

Speaker 1 5:52

Uh-huh.

Speaker 5:54

Uh, but you know, I still like you know, just thinking about the journey, like I I I made that decision and I I went forward with it. And it it it took me to the like you know, to beyond the like it it took me further than I thought it would.

Speaker 2 6:10

Yeah, that's great. I like the two origin stories.

Speaker 6:15

Yeah, that's uh that's uh unfortunately very common for me. All of my, I mean, well, I'm sure we'll talk about it, but you know, all of my uh my my life and also you know all my book projects have these like multiple points of origin, which makes them kind kind of difficult to talk about.

Speaker 2 6:38

That's all right. We're good with with challenging. You have worked across multiple genres. You've poetry, visual, collage, nonfiction. Is is form something that you start with when you start a project, or does that change, you know, based on where you are?

Speaker 6:58

Yeah, that's that's really perceptive. I I I think the way I would the way I would put it is that uh it's it's almost never form should I start with.

Speaker 1 7:12

Nice.

Speaker 7:12

Like I I always I always start with something else, which is an idea or you know, uh an area or a question or something that you know really uh draw draws me in. Um so you know, just thinking about like the the the visual visual stuff in in NISHGA, you know, one of the one of the things that I was you know trying trying to do uh is is answer a question, you know, and the and that question was, you know, how do I how do I exist in relation to my dad's artwork? And you know, how can I engage with it? And what does it mean to be uh what does it mean to be NISHGA but not to but not to have the same kind of traditional NISHGA artistic training that my dad did? Um and you know, and how do I like can I still work with these like shapes and contours of his art? And and so it was like so I guess it wasn't just one question, it was like multiple questions. Um and and the way that I attempted to answer those questions was through visual poetry. Um and and so like you know, all those other kinds of multiple genres that you mentioned, you know, those are all like like the poetry and the nonfiction and and the other things, like genre genre is a is uh is a construct and uh a useful tool for me in helping to uh in in in helping to answer some of the questions that I want to answer. Um and also you know uh helping to articulate some of my thoughts and feelings around I don't know certain certain kinds of areas that I want to address.

Speaker 2 9:11

Yeah, I mean the talk about genres interesting because I I mean I would argue that yours really defies you know a specific genre is so different from anything that I've ever read. Um and I think that's what makes it so interesting and so impactful.

Speaker 9:29

So not being sort of defined by those boundaries, I think is and and that's uh you know that comes with its challenges, you know. Of course, it really does. And I I I'm really into it. Like I I think, you know, I really like that my writing, you know, kind of moves beyond like the boundaries of of genre, like it it contains all of these things, you know, and you know, calling it like writing, you know, even is is difficult sometimes, especially when I think about some of the visual work. Um but you know, I I also think that uh the way people read can sometimes be informed by genre, and uh and and certainly the way that uh you know capitalism wants to market books uh is very informed by genre. Like you can't really put a book into, you know, you know, like you can't put it into chapters without it having a barcode and you know a genre label on the back, because otherwise, how are people gonna know where to find it or where to put it on the shelf?

Speaker 1 10:39

Yeah.

Speaker 10:40

Um, and to me, like you know, genre is just one of the ways that we make sense of the world, uh, but it's not the only way. And and I I really, you know, feel like, you know, all of my work uh, you know, wants to operate outside of those boundaries.

Speaker 2 11:01

Yeah. You're also part of uh the University of Alberta faculty. Can you tell us, you know, a little bit about what you do there?

Speaker 11:10

Sure. Uh well, I mean, this is what I do there. I I teach I teach creative writing, I I teach research creation, I teach indigenous literatures. Uh so I I got a I got a PhD, I completed my PhD in 2018.

Speaker 1 11:28

Congratulations.

Speaker 11:29

Uh maybe 2019. And my my PhD dissertation is is NISHGA, which is this this book that you've that you've read that we're we're gonna talk about. Um and uh I yeah, I most of my work at the U of A is talking to talking to people about creative writing, talking to people about genre, uh, you know, thinking about uh their work and responding to it, and also you know, trying to help people, you know, find their pathways as creative writers. And I, you know, I I think that that's good work. Uh my my favorite work though is helping other indigenous writers find their pathways. And I I do have some indigenous students at the U of A. Um, but but also I I teach uh I just started this um teaching teaching slash mentorship work through the Audible Indigenous Writers Circle. Oh and that one I find really fulfilling because it's it's you know my students are indigenous students, like they're they're all indigenous, and also um they come from all over Canada, and some of them have institutional institutional kinds of affiliations and some of them don't. And I really appreciate being able to connect with people who are outside of the institution as well. Because I I kind of feel like, you know, uh, you know, the institution, like you know, the universities are just one space to to talk about creative writing and to learn about creative writing. Uh, but it's not the only space. And there's lots of lots of folks, you know, in other kinds of situations uh that you know can can benefit from like you know, some of the knowledges that you know get get shared uh within institutional kinds of spaces. Um so and this is another way to say this is uh that the the U of A and you know being a professor, like that's just like one of the things that I do. Uh some people like make it the entirety of what they do. Uh that's that's not for me. I I much prefer to do other things as well.

Speaker 2 13:53

A lot of authors I've talked to, you know, speak a lot about mentorship and how important it is to give back in that way and how um yeah, fulfilling that that is. Um, was there someone um or some people who filled that role for you uh when you were sort of coming up and and and starting to work on your own pieces?

Speaker 14:15

Yeah, so many people.

Speaker 2 14:17

Yeah.

Speaker 14:18

So so many people. Like I I can I can list all of them if you want. Uh or it and maybe even like there'd be too many to to list. But I I think, you know, writers are often, you know, very self-directed. Like we learn a lot, you know, from reading other writing, uh, and you know, from thinking about the kinds of things that we produce. But also, I I think we learn a lot from our teachers, you know, and from people who are kind and generous and and willing to read our work. I mean, I have a really long list of people that have have helped me and and mentored me along the way. Um, and maybe like the very first person on that list is like my high school English teacher, uh, Greg. He was like, he always like I he always reads, you know, my creative work, you know, and I would be writing stuff all the time. And he was always willing to do that. Like, and you know, he was excited about it, and that, you know, really, you know that that sparked something for me. Uh, and I know how hard teachers work, and I know they don't have time to, you know, read additional things. So, like reflecting on that now, I kind of feel like, you know, that was uh a really incredible act of of kindness that he was willing to to read anything outside of my class work.

Speaker 1 15:53

Yeah.

Speaker 15:54

Uh so like he was great. Uh I had a couple of professors at the U of A that were really, really amazing. Um so uh Melissa Jakes, uh who's who's now at UBC Okanagan, uh, like she was she taught me just like a couple of classes, I think, at the U of A. Uh, but she was you know so generous and kind, and she created like such like a welcoming, you know, kind of atmosphere. And she was also hard on me, and I appreciated that. You know, like she really challenged me a lot. Uh so like and and like and uh the other professor um who made a really big impact on me during my undergrad was uh Bert Allman, who is a is a poet and you know has has since retired. Those mentors, you know, can make enormous impacts, you know, on your life and on your trajectory. I I still think about things that Bert told me uh that are useful and and really, you know, help shape my career and my thinking about creative writing. And you know, my my hope, you know, is that uh you know, I can pay it forward a bit and you know also be a good mentor to other people. And and I I do find mentorship work to be really challenging, uh, because you know everybody's different and everybody has a different pathway. And you know, my my general feeling is that you know, if I can, you know, encourage writers to just like take the next step to keep going, like that that, you know, is often enough. And uh and so I really I I really try to, you know, I yeah, I guess I really I really try to you know um emulate that kindness and generosity and and openness that others showed to me. And um I don't know. I I think that that's you know, I think that that's really important work. Uh and and and work that, you know, I I try to continue to improve at, you know, and I I often feel like, you know, like you know, my my own mentors, you know, were so wonderful that it's you know, it feels impossible in some ways to, you know, do the same things that they did or you know, have the same impact. And and I just have to try.

Speaker 1 18:29

That's all you can do.

Speaker 18:30

To do those things and to, you know, and to you know, be kind and and and open about things, um, and and hope that uh that that works.

Speaker 2 18:42

Yeah, well, I think that you know, uh people are probably picking up on that feeling of effort. Um, and I think, you know, if someone believes in you enough to try, then there's something worthwhile there. There's something worth pursuing. So I'm I'm sure that yeah. Well, I'd love to move on to the book we're gonna talk about today. So your uh Nishka is part memoir, part essay, part visual text. Um, why did you choose this sort of hybrid structure to tell your story? And and did that allow you to express things in a way that a traditional narrative might not?

Speaker 19:22

Uh yes. I I mean I think the short answer is yes. Uh so NISHGA is uh and the way I describe it is is first of all, it does, it says it's a memoir, uh, is published as a work of creative nonfiction. Um and and also, you know, I see it as a work that uh is is more than that. You know, it's uh it's it's memoir, but it and it's also you know uh concrete poetry, um, you know, as and it's uh it's partly academic. Uh so there's a bunch of transcripts from like academic talks uh that I gave. And it's it's partly like a record of um my PhD studies, uh, and it's also got all of these like archival um photos and archival documents. Uh so it's got it's got all of these uh different modes and genres uh within it. And and the reason the reason why that is, is because uh the question, the central questions that I was trying to engage with uh were really difficult and complicated. Um and and those those questions were uh what does it mean to be indigenous but to be dispossessed uh from your home territory? Uh what does it mean to be indigenous but to be dispossessed from your language and traditional knowledges? Uh what does it mean to be an urban indigenous person? Uh what does it mean to be uh an intergenerational survivor of residential schools? Uh what does it mean um yeah, to to exist, you know, uh in in this space, you know, between between and across all those things. Uh so I I really I set out to try to answer those questions. Uh and I think that they're um I I think those the questions are are honest and and there's questions that I really wanted to find some way to address. Uh and and you know, some of that is that uh when I entered into when I entered into like this world of like publishing and creative writing, you know, I like all of these questions were questions that I had asked myself, you know, in various forms. Uh, but they also started to be questions that like I that people would ask me, you know, in kind in in sometimes like kind of roundabout ways. Um and and I felt like I often felt like I I had an answer to some of those questions, but that it would really help to write it all down and to, you know, try to articulate, you know, a kind of comprehensive answer. Because I was I was answering all of these questions in these kinds of like small uh piecemeal ways, you know, when I would go to like a reading or something and something would come up and I would try to like someone would ask a question and I would attempt to answer it. Uh and I always you know try to answer answer. these things as as truthfully as I can. So you know the I guess this is a long this is a very long answer uh to your question. But the but the structure uh of the work really risk responds to those questions because I would I would go I would go down a pathway you know of attempting to answer these questions through the more memoir kinds of sections of the work. And then I would feel like oh well you know the memoir sections brought me this far but they didn't really address this other part that I was interested in. And so I'd have to switch gears and then I would uh you know bring in all these archival documents and then and the archival documents would answer other parts of the questions but they wouldn't answer you know this other thing that was over here and then I then I would say like okay well maybe I'll bring in you know my dad's artwork and you know I'll bring in this like visual kind of component and that would answer some questions but it wouldn't answer everything. So I'd have to bring in something else. And so you know the the structure of the book really uh you know it was it it kind of came about because I was attempting to grapple with these really difficult complicated questions and the only way that I could figure out how to do that how I could you know attempt to address uh the really um the entirety of the question but also uh address a question that's really complicated is by moving to the side and you know attempting to address it from another angle. Um so the you know the the hybrid structure as you say I think is is because the the questions you know require hybrid kinds of answers complex yeah definitely complex you know your book you've mentioned it confronts this legacy of residential schools intergenerational trauma how do you approach writing something that is so painful and so personal while maintaining care for yourself in your community I imagine that that was an incredibly difficult process yeah it was uh it was difficult I I I think maybe the first thing I can say is that uh I I think care is care for your readers and also care for oneself during the writing practice is really important uh and that as right as as a writer I I do feel like sometimes uh you know sometimes my impulse was to forego that kind of care uh particularly for myself uh because I felt like the story was really important and I needed to tell it and sometimes that meant you know being in a place that was really not good for me. Like it took me like a really long time to move out from the sh like move out from underneath the shadow that that book cast you know just like on my life. Like I felt like uh it was it was really hard to it was really hard to write this book and and it took me to like a really difficult place and I you know I don't particularly like being in that place but I also felt like it was necessary in order to just try to try to tell the story and and I I think that that uh I I think that you know my advice to writers is to not do that. When I when I when I give advice to my students I say don't do this like this is a bad idea. It's a bad idea to put yourself in these situations. I say this in the book but um I'll I'll repeat it here which is which is that there's I I say that uh I may have never you know written this book had it not been you know for the for the PhD uh and and I I may not have ever have ever finished it if it wasn't because of those deadlines. And they weren't self-imposed deadlines they were you know institutional kinds of deadlines. And and and I in some ways like I'm grateful for that because I I do think uh I think it was worthwhile to write this project and and in other ways I kind of feel like I might I maybe would be much happier much happier to have never written this book and also to have uh you know had the option of just you know beginning down this path and then putting it aside and never returning to it. But I you know I ultimately I did you know uh continue forward and and that was I think a difficult decision uh personally um but I but also I you know I I I I hate to say it this way but it feels like it paid off you know that's okay like it feels like it's like the you know like all of that turmoil you know it did end eventually and and I was a like you know I was able to to write a book about residential schools and intergenerational trauma uh that was about you know my dad and also my grandparents and my mom uh and uh I somehow survived that experience and now I never have to write that book again you know it it's it exists in the world for forever and and that you know it feel feels like it was worthwhile I'm glad I'm glad that ultimately yeah I I don't know if that totally answers the question but I I do think uh I I do truly think it's important to uh for anyone that's listening to this you know to to find mo like yeah to to be able to care for yourself and to be able to go at your own pace and also to be able to set aside work that's too difficult. Like it's sometimes it's not worth it to to write through these things. And and sometimes it is and it's really difficult to determine when and where that that that is in your life you deal with in this book as well about you know sort of this war between educating settlers people who don't understand what it is like to be not only an indigenous person but someone who is going you know been through this trauma and and being dispossessed um but not wanting you know is that my job should that be my job I I'm not you know do your own work and that sort of the challenge of uh you know you talk a little bit about the challenge of how do I how do you deal with that and you know a little bit of this book it feels like an education for me but knowing also how difficult it was for you it's there's just some interesting challenges in there yeah yeah there really are because I I feel like uh on on the one hand I I feel like you know as a creative person as a writer an artist what what have you you know my prime primary you know role is to is to create art to create writing to to to do things you know in the world that uh respond to the way that I understand the world uh and that's uh and and also because I write about indigeneity I write about you know uh how I understand like um urban indigenous identity for example like sometimes that really does require you know setting the stage and you know providing some context for people to you know find a way into it you know if they don't understand you know what it what it means to be urban and indigenous or you know what it means to be an intergenerational survivor residential schools for example like you know I do I do think that uh my my role in in making art is is to partly provide those contexts um but also I feel like I've got to draw the line somewhere like you know my my role as an educator is is actually not to teach about indigeneity and indigenous histories it's to teach about creative writing. And so I think you know when I'm when I encounter some of like it some of the situations that I wrote about in the book where like it it feels like like a I for for those those who haven't encountered these sections it's like you know where when I was at a uh uh a reading or um a writing festival or something and you know people would ask me to explain indigenous history so that they could understand you know where I was coming from uh you know I feel like I still feel resistant to that you know like I still feel like there's only so much that I should or that I'm capable of like like you know as an individual and and that's one step too far. But I do want to provide some context. Like I want to like one of the conversations I had about NISHGA early on uh with my my editor Jared Bland and also my at the time agent Stephanie Sinclair was about uh access and uh it was about like who um who and access an audience like who do I want to be able to read Nishka and you know the I had I had two audiences in mind uh the the first audience was like my my family like like how and and like I I specifically wondered like how would my family encounter this work like how would like how my cousins read it how my aunties you know like read it and and was I was I doing uh was I presenting it in such a way that they would feel invited into it and then also um how would non-indigenous readers who you know have maybe barely heard of residential schools like how would they be able to access it and and could they also be an audience? And my feeling at the time was that and it it's it it's it still is this way actually is like I really want you know anyone to be able to pick up this work uh like you know if they have no context for anything like I I want I still want want them to be able to like open it up and be able to get something out of it. And and I I know really hope I've I've written it in that way. And I hope it's inviting for both indigenous and non-indigenous readers. And and also you know that that line of of educating I think was a difficult one to uh to to figure out in the book. And and ultimately what I what I ended up doing what uh was I added in a bunch of quotations uh from other from other writers who were were able to like you know I think those quote quotations really kind of set the scene a bit and you know allowed allowed uh those who who didn't know about these histories you know uh a point of access you know um and a a point of reference for uh for what was going on and that was really the only way that I could I could confront that that issue uh because I felt like I couldn't do that writing myself like that that uh that that kind of writing was like too difficult to take on in some ways uh and so I I turned to to others you know that have have said it better than I ever ever would be able to yeah I do feel like you know the parts where you you're speaking about some of your experiences I don't know how many times it just felt like a gut punch to me um but I I do think that you know you really feel your your struggle in the writing this grappling with your identity and how others are trying to put that onto you as well I think that's what's so hard to to watch um to read um but I I also appreciated how much care you took especially at the end with sort of this letter to your family just trying to say it's okay if you can't read it right now it's okay you know I just I like I had to say this but I thought that was a really beautiful way to kind of finish off your piece as well. Yeah I yeah the the the letter that opens the t the book and also the letter that closes the book I think are you know they're both incredibly important to me. And I I really I think the the the closing letter you know I I felt uh yeah I I felt like I I absolutely needed to to say those things you know directly to my to my family and it felt like um yeah it it it it's it's weird writing a thing that you know you're that you that you have like a a specific person in mind for or you know a set of people and also that you know I also knew right away that like that it would also be useful for other people to see the inside of that to to like to invite people into that space I thought you know was important and generative um and you know and also those were some of the most difficult sections of the book to write I mean I actually they were all difficult to write they're all all difficult things to write yeah definitely you know just talking a little bit about um visually how it's presented you know there's the the layers of things there's so many things that are layered on top of each other whether it's in images photos on top of artwork um your poetry on top of your father's artwork um it really challenges your reader to to read something consume this in in a different way than maybe you've ever done before for me definitely what do you hope that you know this experience opens up for your readers well I mean I I guess it's a couple things uh so I I guess I guess the first thing you know is that I'm really hoping that uh that people who read read the book uh will expand expand their own senses and understandings of how indigeneity is experienced in Canada and and also you know what the like like specifically like what the legacies of of residential schools uh bring to individuals and to families uh today you know like I I I think a huge a huge part of this uh project for me uh is just trying to address um the impact that residential schools have had on all indigenous peoples you know in Canada and and I feel like uh indigenous peoples often understand this but not always uh and and I think non-Indigenous peoples you know sometimes really struggle you know and you know one of the one of the many you know frustrating responses that I've heard about residential schools was that you know this is in the past and and there's no um there's no you know reason to like dwell on it or or think about it or what have you uh and then also like whoever the the people who are saying that you know have clearly not experienced how how this kind of trauma works like it it moves from generation to generation like it it like uh to survive a genocide you know is a difficult thing uh and I I it's not something that you know just ends when the residential schools were officially closed in 1996 you know it's like it's something that continues forward. Uh and so I guess yeah a big part of it for me was just trying to create a space of understanding uh where people could try to understand this massive thing in a way that was more personal. And I I I don't know how successful I I really was in doing that. You know, because I I mean obviously I can only speak to my own experience. But I but I do you know one of the one of the things that really gives me hope is that you know so many people who have encountered this book say like they've experienced something similar you know they have similar kinds of stories or like it gives gives them a a kind of like language or narrative like foothold you know to be able to explain this you know to themselves or to others. And you know I think that that uh is the best that I could hope for. And also I get that it's challenging like I I think it's a it's a challenging book on a number of different levels uh the content but also this the structure um and you know my my feeling is that uh when you create when you create art that speaks to difficult histories and also you know difficult presences or you know moments within the present that you know that that art may be necessarily difficult. The the role of the role of art is not to it is not all it may it maybe it is this sometimes, but it's not always to make things comfortable or palatable or uh perceptible sometimes the role of art you know is about reflecting uh and um and you know trying to to hold difficult things in tandem with each other and and that's that's difficult work and you know uh I I think I I'm I'm glad that uh I'm really glad that so many people have have taken up that challenge and you know have sat with the work and and are interested in in thinking about it and uh sharing it with people. Yeah absolutely we've talked a lot about you know this disconnected feeling from your your heritage and and being confronted with that from out external sources as well did writing this book help with that connection uh yeah yes and no uh I I and I'll I'll try to yeah I'll I'll try to to to summarize this the best best I can but um I I felt the the book was it was so important for me to write it was so important for me to to talk about like uh I guess my experiences of belonging and also not belonging you know uh where like I felt like and this you know comes up over and over again in the book because because I was because I didn't grow up you know with the indigenous side of my family because of all these histories of trauma like I always kind of felt like oh I I don't I I need you know I need all this other stuff uh from like all of these other like knowledges, indigenous knowledges and languages and you know community like being actually like you know within community to feel whole in some ways um and to feel like you know I'm pro I'm properly uh indigenous and not you know just like uh the the version of the broken Indian that I am uh and then like I wrote all this stuff and I think all those tensions are real and also one of the realizations I came to at the end of the the the project uh and you know in some ways the the the project is just my life so there really is no end uh but one of the realizations I came to when I I you know was close to finishing the book was that I have to I think I just need to find a way forward that's where I feel good and comfortable with like you know where I'm at right now and that you know this experience of dispossession and this experience of being removed from my my community of my knowledge and like those knowledges like that is actually a fundamentally indigenous experience which is kind of messed up really messed up um but that but that I it's it's also impossible to just feel shame about that forever you know there's like there's got to be a point where I'm like where I just have to be a where I basically I have to be cool with it. Uh and uh and I think that that uh I think that's you know a a healthier way to understand it to be honest. Like I I feel like I I feel like it's it's important to understand the diversity of indigenous experiences in Canada uh and how they can be very different from from one one to another and that you know they're all equally valid. And I I feel like that was you know a really important conclusion for me to come to uh yeah just as like an individual. And also if that's like helpful for others I hope and I hope that it is you know I I'm glad to have shared that.

Speaker 2 46:54

Again I think it was educational for a non-Indigenous person as well um to be respectful of that and understand that. So thank you for you know putting yourself through that to lay it out so clearly for us because I do feel that I you know we've talked a lot about how difficult this was um you know I would love to hear just about how you write it doesn't necessarily have to be about this book but what is your process like do you you know are you the kind of person that has to be scheduled um do you just write in bursts?

Speaker 47:30

Is there a specific environment you like to be in yeah I I don't do the scheduling thing. Yeah my my friend Richard Van Camp uh I think he wakes up at like 4 a.m every day and writes until 8 a.m maybe I've got like the timing a little bit wrong but it's like three or four hours like right in the morning. Wow and he does it like seven days a week and I think that that's brilliant and also I do not uh have the capacity for that uh so I um yeah I I mean uh I used to do this thing and I I I still kind of do it where I I write in kind of short bursts like particularly like throughout the summer uh and then I I find time to you know write in even shorter kind of windows throughout the year or like do like editing throughout the year. Um so I find I'm like like for first drafts in particular I find that I'm at my at my most creative during the warm warm months uh and and also I think these things shift like it like it really has shifted for me uh especially since uh my daughter was born where like I feel like I kind of don't have any time so I just write whenever now like whenever it's possible like I'll just and I've been writing uh things in much smaller um like I just I think I just write sentences now. Um I'll just like you know I'll I'll have an idea for a good sentence I want to write and I'll you know write it down on my phone sometimes or you know in my notebook or you know in my like put it I've got like a a a Google drive like folder full like full of these things and uh and that like especially you know in the last five years since you know Phoenix has been a part of my life like I feel like that's how I've had to do it and that's cool. Like I I'm I'm I'm fine with writing that way. You know there's like I I and I I I assume it will it will continue to change because that that's been the process is that like you know it stays the same for a couple of years and then it changes and then it'll just have to continue to adjust or or not adjust. I I do think that uh you know since I started publishing professionally in tw like I started in 2013. Uh that was when my first book came out so it's 2025 now so that's what like uh 12 years. 12 years yeah yeah so I think and I've I've written uh five five books uh in that time um I feel really good about that I I also feel like you know it may slow down because I've and not that I feel like I've you know been trying to you know speed up exactly but that um I've I had all these I had all these things that I wanted to I wanted to say and some of them I've said and some of them you know are on the horizon. Um and you know I also feel like I there's yeah I I I think there's lots of other things that I want to do you know in my life and I I feel like like I've got I I do have a book coming out next spring uh that is actually kind of a follow-up to Nishka it's it's a book that's called Dad Era and it's about indigenous parenting and also uh indigenous knowledge transmission uh and it can it continues some of the threads in Nishka that are uh specifically the ones that are uh that use my my dad's art um so so that book is coming out with Coach House next spring and after that I've got nothing and I I don't know if I will have anything for probably years. You know so I I feel like and and also I don't feel like I'm in any any rush. Like I I I feel like I might need to spend like a few years just like thinking and uh doing other stuff and you know I'm sure I all return like I'm sure I'll return to writing because it's kind of like a I guess it's kind of like an obsession or like a compulsion or something. Like as a creative person I really feel like I have to do these things sometimes. But also I feel like the the rate at which I do them can slow and there's lots of stuff there's a lot of uh I don't know there's a lot of video games I want to play a lot of books I want to read a lot of show TV shows I want to catch up on you know a lot of other things I want to do that is totally understandable we are multifaceted people but yes we want to do lots of different things yeah I feel that I would love to you know ask you've said mentorship is something that's really fulfilling and important to you and you know looking back at your journey of writing what advice would you offer to emerging authors particularly indigenous authors who want to tell stories that are rooted in identity and and lived experience yeah I think I think the best advice I can give is to keep moving forward with your writing and and by by that I mean I think it's really important to be able to to write everything down and then to be able to continue to build to build on that and to continue to revise and continue to try to make it make it make it be you know that really shining beautiful book that's like in your head but maybe not yet on paper. And that the only the only way to do that is to is to rewrite and to revision and to reimagine and to you know try to try to build it out you know so that it it matches like the book in your head matches the book that's on the page at the end of the day. And I think that you know one of the one of the most difficult things uh for emerging writers is that you know emerging writers are are almost always better readers than they are writers. And so when they like when they initially you know write that first draft or even second draft and it doesn't match up with uh with what their expectations are uh it's just that it it's just that they they know what really good writing is and they they know and and that they can see because they're great readers they can you know see the difference between you know really excellent writing and the writing that they're doing and that uh the only pathway forward to make you know your own writing better is to is to work on that is to work on it and to put like the time and effort in and you know to continue to try and you know build it and grow it and you know do all of that stuff. And that the only way to kind of fail at at being a writer is to not do that work. And and I I I think unfortunately like like lots of people do kind of stop or you know give up and I think that that's that's not I don't think that that's quite the right response. Like I I think the the better response is to say like it's not you know it's not there yet but that it can be and I I think uh I I I try to you know sometimes try to share this with my students but you know sometimes like first or second or even third drafts are are pretty rough and it needs 20 more drafts to be better you know uh and and that that's a lot of work but also that's that's the pathway forward.

Speaker 2 56:04

It's wonderful. Well thank you so much for for joining me and and sharing so much with me today. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 56:12

Um you know just is there anything else that we we sort of miss talking about or anything else you'd like to add no I mean there's there's I mean there's lots more I could say about everything but I I feel yeah I feel I feel really good about the about this conversation and and thank you so much for uh your wonderful questions and for for taking the time to to think so deeply about uh about this work. Oh truly my pleasure and I would love to chat with you when your new book comes out as well so please uh cool I'll keep an eye out for that and and touch base because I would love to see a follow-up and and exploring more with with your dad which is such an interesting heartbreaking conversation and well I mean that and that one's it's a lot about my dad but it's also a lot about my daughter yeah and about my own my own feelings about being a dad now you know it's yeah and and also that book is the the one that's coming out uh dad era is really funny I think like and I maybe this is something I can say that's in addition sure is that you know I I do feel uh like I'm I'm generally like a very joyful person. And you know I I think I'm funny. Uh that's you know you know people may disagree with that I don't know uh but I I I kind of had this moments where uh I I was looking back at my previous books and I was like many like all these books like they like they're some they're so serious and I get why they're serious and also I feel joyful and and I really want to want to try writing a book that better uh that that's better at you know tapping into the joy that I feel and you know express on a daily kind of basis. So it's a very like in some ways it's a very different book than other books that I've written and and in other ways like it's it's obviously connected to Nishka and you know has has you know more serious kinds of themes. But uh yeah I'm I'm really looking forward to sharing that one with the world and you know I'm hoping that uh people like it.

Speaker 2 58:38

That was our conversation with Jordan Abel, author of NISHGA, a work that invites us to sit with complexity, to question the stories we inherit and to consider the ones we choose to tell moving forward. If today's episode sparks something for you we encourage you to pick up NISHGA and spend some time with its layered thought provoking pages. That's it for this episode of U of A Reads. Thank you so much to Jordan for joining us to explore more author talks, webinars and upcoming events visit us online at uab.ca slash alumni Thanks for listening to U of A Reads Stories Behind the Stories. If you like this episode consider subscribing sharing it with a friend or leaving us a review. We'll see you next time with more Stories Behind the Stories