Parenting IS Discipleship featuring Jen Sodestrom

In this episode of the Disciples Made Here podcast, Drew is joined by his bride Jen Sodestrom for a conversation about the most sacred discipleship community we're a part of: our families.

Parenting isn't a side category of discipleship. It is discipleship. The 18-year camping trip. The identify, invite, imitate, and innovate happening in real time around the dinner table, in the car, and on the ball field. Jen brings her background as a high school teacher, college professor, children's pastor, and child psychology to a deeply honest conversation about what it actually looks like to raise kids who are rooted in Christ rather than just shaped by rules.

From a four-year-old named Carson at the state capitol steps learning what it means to have a debt paid, to a car ride conversation about a teenager smoking on the side of the road that turned into a lesson on compassion and prayer, to the difference between preparing the road for your child versus preparing your child for the road — this episode is full of real stories, hard-won wisdom, and practical phrases for every phase.

The goal was never behavior modification. It was always heart transformation. Heaven over Harvard. Abide over achieve. And a family that sees themselves not just as sons and daughters, but as sent ones.

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Reflection Questions

• Are you inviting your kids into the why behind the what, or defaulting to "because I said so"?
• What phrases or rhythms could you introduce into your family that help your kids become self-assessors and independent thinkers rooted in Christ?
• Are you preparing the road for your child, or preparing your child for the road? What would need to change?

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Hey guys, welcome back to the Disciples Made Here podcast where we've been diving deep into not just the 40,000-foot level of what a disciple is, but really at a four-foot level, how do we make them? Um and so we've been three sides into the diamond so far. Uh we're talking about identify, invite, and imitate. And so last week, as Heather and I landed the plane for imitate, we thought, man, what would it be like for us to pause, have a guest episode to talk about how does this get played out in our everyday rhythms of life? Um, and specifically our first joy filled community of faith is for me with my bride and then with my babies, like our families. So so often we've used spiritual parenting as a metaphor for what disciple making is. It's Ephesians 4, where Paul says, I want to raise people up. So for me, it's little Andrew becoming more transformed into mature manhood. And then as a dad, how do I help Braden and Carson and Peyton that parenting is not some side category of discipleship, it is discipleship. And so I love that. So today the hope is that we're gonna slow down, ask some questions of Jen, share some stories as a family. And so it is fun for me to have you as my bride join us. I know it's not as fun for you, nope, but thank you for just your grace and willingness to be here to process with us. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Okay, well, you're welcome, I suppose. We'll see if it's good afterwards, but it doesn't matter. Um, okay, so let's just set the tone before we start. I am not perfect at parenting. I have a lot of experience between being a high school teacher and a college professor and a children's pastor and a parent. I've been doing it for 19 years, but in 19 years, everybody might come back and I might say, Don't listen to anything I just said.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

You might say that in 19 years.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Yeah. But um for the most part, we've been students of the word and students of children. And we've put those things together and it has um shaped who we are. Parenting has changed our very our character, our our everything. And so as we shape them, we're being shaped. And so um it's really important. But we've learned a lot, and I'm very excited for what we're about to share, but I just want to make sure I'm not coming in as some know at all expert.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Well, especially because our guest episodes are with experts, and I know you're saying you're not an expert, but I know you are, and I'm thankful for the way that I've learned from you. And so for me, uh again, I've shared the story about all I wanted in a bride was someone that would push me towards Christ, and I got that in you. As a young pastor, a young preacher and teacher, uh, Jen was a teacher of teachers at Biola University, and so nothing better than getting to preach a sermon, having a teacher on the front row that's like helping you in your teaching, but also you have a child psych background. Um, I just learned so much from you, and so I I love that you're doing this with me, because you do do this with me every day of our life, uh, but that we get to do not just as a family, like we do fail forward, like as Jenna have looked at how God has shaped us as sons and daughters through each other in our marriage, but also through being parents. Um, and so we are. We're here today to fail forward with you, to share some of our learnings, to share some of those stories as a family, but with our disciples made here family. And so for me, I'm a why guy, you're a why gal, you've helped me with that. The depth of your why determines the length of your what. And so, as parents for us, the why is always the glory of God, but it's the good of our kids. Like every decision we make, the good ones, the bad ones, the imperfect ones, the why is always for their good, but ultimately for the glory of God. That that's what I want most for them is that like us, they would see their identity being rooted and affirmed in Christ because the world is changing, but he's not.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Right. Okay, so um I'm a softball girl at heart. I played softball through college. So when we talk about the disciples' diamond, I only see it as a baseball diamond. So we know there's four sides to a diamond, home to first, first to second, second to third, third to home. So between home and first, this is identify. And this is where we're praying and watching and watching who God crossed our paths with, and we're identifying those people that we can live intentionally with. Right. Just make no mistake, I was fully aware that I had children in my stomach, taking away my lungs and hurting my ribs. And so I didn't have to identify them. I knew they were there, they were there part of my life.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

And they showed up. And just like that with invite, you don't have to invite them into your home because they're born into your home. And so identifying invite are a little different nuance than the disciples diamond. What I'm inviting them into then is just my R1 with Jesus. It's just my walk with Jesus. Uh as a pastor, they hear me preach, but the best messages aren't on Sunday, they're in our home. Is there really more joy in Jesus? When I invite them in, it's not that they would do what I want them to do, but I'm inviting them into more joy in Jesus. So identify invite in families, they're there. Ta-da!

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Yeah. And I think a misconception of invite is we think we're um uh sometimes people use the word invite and really they just mean tell. And it's not tell. And so we're gonna try to break that down as we go. An invitation is not just telling them what to do, think, act, behave. It is an invitation into something much bigger. So then once we go from second to third, we get into imitate. Right. And when they live in your home and they're around you all the time, the good, the bad, and the ugly is potentially being imitated. And and that's um humbling and scary all at the same time. And so I'm honored to be their mom, and I hope that I'm just hunting down Christ with fervor that they might see that in me. Uh, but I am well aware that when I lose my cool, they too are learning from that. So imitating's a fun one, but it is um in those imperfections that I think they actually get to see what mercy and grace really are.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Amen. And at some point your kids get a little bit older and you you send them. And that's something we've talked about for 18 years. Um, we actually have a 19-year-old now, and so we're in the process of sending, and even as we were considering, I'm like, and it's fun. And you're like, but is it? Like, is it fun? Like, we love our kids, so still on the fence. So the idea of sending them, and this is where Jesus lived this out. He, and that'll be next week's episode. He did a three-year camping trip. We as parents get an 18-year camping trip. Not that they stopping our kids after 18, but you get some intense time from zero to 18 that I want you to redeem. When we were college pastors, parents would be talking about, I'm gonna lose my kid at 18. I'm like, if you raise kids to be independent, you start losing your kids at 16. They get their license and they're off. Um, and it's a good thing. And so for us, it's looking back over 19 years saying, how do we redeem every moment that's right here because they're being equipped as they imitate us, as we imitate Christ, to be sent. Um, because sending is real for them, just like it is for us.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

So at the end of the day, the goal is that our kids are rooted in Christ. I want them to know the gospel so well. I want them to know that they're sinners and Jesus paid the price for that. I want them to know that um that God has a bigger calling on their life than just becoming successful. But those ideas, the the the gospel story, that is that is a hard concept to grasp at little. And we try really hard to people try really hard to force that concept into understanding at a really young age instead of building schema, which is what we do in every other educational setting. And so um, I'm gonna tell you a story of just how we've lived out the gospel because we believe that every opportunity is a is a a pathway where we can share what the gospel concept actually is.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

And it's not just for information, but again, transformation of their hearts and opportunity to grow.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Yeah. So we're at the State Capitol building in Sacramento, California, and um, we play this very, very dumb game called odds.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

I know. Our kids love it. It has gotten me into more trouble um across the world. I do I've done push-ups in the airports, in international airports, and because I lose all the time at this very silly, stupid game called Odds. But they've learned math and they it's essentially a I dare you game, right? And so uh someone sets a dare. And they say this in what happened at the Capitol building, this is what happened. It said, uh well, our older son said, I dare you, Carson, to get up on that at the top of the steps of the Capitol building statue and bang your chest like you're a gorilla. And I odds you to do it is how.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Yeah, Peyton's like zero.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Yeah, nothing. One. Um and Carson, who can't say no to a big brother, was like, oh, I'll take those odds. And so Carson gets to set the odds because he, you know, if he doesn't want to do it, he can say one in a million. But um, you know, he If he's bold, he picks a low number. Yeah, so I think he picks seven. He said one through seven. And so then we counted it off three, two, one, and they both had to say a number. And if they say the exact same number, if the person that dared him says the same number as the person that accepted the dare, then that person loses and they have to go do the dare. And so we said three, two, one, and both boys went four. And that was it. Braden was so thrilled that he just won odds. Yep. And Carson just panicked. His whole little four-year-old face just a cute four-year-old face, big cheeks, big eyes. Yeah. He was like, Oh, I don't want to really do that. I don't and all of a sudden he was completely afraid to pay his debt.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Now, at this moment, I would consider this moment being like filled with the Holy Spirit. Like, I'm not going into the morning saying, Man, how do I preach the gospel? Like every morning the gospel is preached to me when I wake up and look in the mirror and I remember the goodness of God. Um, but if our goal for our kids is to be gotten by the gospel, not just to get the gospel, I saw one kid that was devastated by paying off a debt and another kid that was like righteously ready to see the debt paid off. And so I remember looking at Braden and saying, Hey, Carson's in tears. What if I took Carson's place? What if I paid off the debt and I beat and I'll be louder than him, I'll be more obnoxious, you can laugh at me. Would that satisfy you, Braden? Because you are owed this. And Carson, would that be okay if I took your place? And Carson's like, yeah, yeah. I mean, he was like just crying. And Braden's like, This is great. I get something even better beyond. And I remember doing that, um, and it was this beautiful moment for me, and I think you took the lead from there. I did it, and then you just said, Hey, this is kind of what Jesus has done for us. He satisfies the debt, he pays rice. And it wasn't some big long Romans road, which is a beautiful sequence of scripture, but it was an age-appropriate way to help them build in their schema of, oh, this is who Jesus is, this is the love of the Father, this is the love of the Son. It was really fun to just do it as a family.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

And they still talk about it today.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

It is still part of their uh long-term memory, which I'm thankful for. We had a younger couple with us there that had no kids at the time. I'm not super sure what they were thinking. So we're like, what's happening? No. But um later, as we reflected, that was impactful for them too, because they watched what it looked like not to lecture, but to model.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

And that was the difference.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

It was so fun. And and really that is the goal, right? The goal at the end of the day is to help our kids grow in the understanding of who is God and how there's actually more joy in him than anything else.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

Yep. And I've uh as I've uh raised children in the church, I've watched essentially the church take two, there's two different pathways that people take. One is um to instill the rules and regulations that we see that are good, they're good behavior, but the goal is to craft behavior. And I see another one where we invite them into this critical thinking and more of the why behind the what. Um and the goal is to develop character that then develops behavior. And I know people in both camps that are doing, and I know kids that are coming out awesome in both camps, just to be clear. But for our parenting style, what I've watched Jesus do most when I read scripture is he always builds relationship into invitation before he gets to rules and regulations because character that's developed, you don't even have to talk about the behavior. Yeah, it comes.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

And that's what we mean when we say that vision is is caught, not taught. We're not we're both teachers, literally, both teaching at the university level. And like we love information, but transformation does happen when we're in the journey and the process together. It's that 18-year camping trip that we're really playing. It's the long obedience in the same direction.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Yeah, and so it would be easier for me as a parent to simply say, do it because I said so. 100%. That is, I can't tell you how many times where I will say, uh, you know, let's get ready for baseball, and they're like, why? And I'm like, just do it! Yep, right? I just want to scream and do it. And I mean, this is a silly example, but I have to spend the time to explain the why. Then the next time I say that, I never get the why again. It's longer, it's harder, it's more time consuming, but it is so worth it when they start to catch the why versus just doing what you say.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

And I feel like you've modeled for me a great example of you don't have to. You just might not play the next game if you don't want to go. You don't have to make your bed, but here's what might come. Like always getting to the why is helping them grow as thinkers, not just obedience, which only feels like it lasts for so long, anyways. And the key heart idea is is the heart. It's this long obedience in the same direction. What's the motivation? What's the why behind the what? Because life will expand to the size of your why. Like I remember being a little kid and hearing the story regularly about I was at the dinner table and I was drinking my milk, and my parents said, You can't be dismissed until you the glass is empty. And so my response was great, I knocked the glass over and it was empty, and I held it up and I was like, ta-da! Um, and I was such a little kid, but at a young age, we're learning how to get what we want, how to appease, how to quote unquote hit the mark. But we're trying to coach our kids not just to do what we said because we said so, but why. And everything we do is for their good and for the glory of God. And so that's the real issue. We're trying to get the the question behind the question or the why behind the what.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Okay. Um a hundred percent. And when I said it was harder and longer, I mean it, and I know how much I'm asking of myself and of us. Um, but I'm watching our 19-year-old, 16-year-old, and 12-year-old be able to navigate the world instead of being afraid of the world.

SPEAKER_02 14:35

So good.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

And so I'm not afraid of putting them in the world. I've equipped them with tools to navigate it. They don't need me next to them saying that's a bad decision or that's a good decision. They um are capable of hunting down the why and the what would Jesus do. So I'm gonna give you an example of how we've kind of fostered some of this along the way. Um, so Carson and I, he was, I don't know, six, maybe seven, and we were in the car, we were driving, he's in the back seat, and as we were driving down the boulevard, um, there was a teenager smoking. And I didn't say anything. And Carson, I can it got quiet. What you fit? He's never quiet. So, you know, there's that. And so it got quiet, and I thought, oh gosh, here we go. And uh he goes, Wow, mom, do you see that kid over there? And I said, Oh, what kid? And he he's like, That kid right there, look at him, he's smoking. And he this kid was probably 13. And I found myself in this uh predicament momentarily where I thought, man, right now I could scare Carson out of smoking for the rest of his life. I could simply say, you're right, that's so gross. Why would anybody ever do that? What a gross kid. I hope you never become like that. I hope you never have friends like that. And I could just absolutely throttle how gross this is and that he should never do it because um I don't want him to.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

It's not good for him. And I I wouldn't, I would want to help him be healthy. Or I could do what I did instead, which was that's too bad. I wonder why he's smoking. And Carson got really quiet again and he started thinking, and he's like, maybe his mom and dad smokes. And I'm like, that's really profound. Yeah. We we do a lot of the things we see modeled. And he's like, Yeah. I said, I wonder why he would find the need to smoke. And then Carson said, and remember he's six or seven at this time. Carson says, I wonder if he's just trying to fit in or be cool with other people. I'm like, man, that's a really strong why. Um that makes me sad for him that he would have to do that. And Carson's like, yeah, that makes me sad for him too. I wonder if he has any friends. I'm like, oh, I wonder if he has friends. And Carson then said, He probably really just needs Jesus. And I thought, man, buddy, you just nailed it. I bet he has a really tough family life, or he's really insecure and needs friends, or he's lonely, but at the end of the day, he really needs Jesus. I wonder what we could do for him now. And Carson, his sweet little voice from the back, said, We could pray for him. And I'm like, that's a great idea. And so we spent the rest of the car ride praying for this 13-year-old kid who doesn't even know we prayed for him. But for Carson, he learned that every child, good, bad, every choice they make is made in the image of God and worthy of prayer.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

So good. And part of what I love about this is then we get to come home as a family and talk about our day at the dinner table and say, What did you learn? What did you see? What did you experience? And Carson gets to share the story for me as dad, uh, for for Braden. Uh and what I love about this, as I just watch you, Jen, be a parent, and I get the privilege of that front row seat literally at the dinner table in the car at times. It causes me to reflect as a parent and say, Okay, am I seeing this as an opportunity for God's kingdom to come in this moment? Like before you corrected or even affirmed his good theology, which is this is bad. Yeah, sure. Um, you asked yourself a question, and I just feel like you do it intuitively. Um, someone like me doesn't because I'm like, just because I said so. Yeah. And so it's been such a gift to me as a dad, um, as a young dad, growing as a dad, to say, okay, what did you do here? Like you leaned in, you asked questions, you looked at the deeper lesson, and I just think it's your gifting, which is why, well, I mean, again, I married you for so many reasons, but my growth in Jesus as a parent, I'm a better dad because you're my bride. Um, and so for you, it's been natural. For me, it's muscle memory. It's like I have to actually see it and think critically and be prepared for, and how do I help my kids see every situation as an invitation to glorify God, to be the living proof of loving God. Um, and that's something that I'm thankful for that I want all of us to rethink our thinking. Um, I I think I'm a better dad because of it, although you did remind me that I still with the dishes say because I said so. Um and so I'm trying, I'm growing in that, but I I love what you did. You stopped, you prayed, the spirit led through you, and you caused him to not just ask good questions, but think about all the whys behind the what. And now you're relating to the Imago Day for your kid, not just shaming on the brokenness of the Imago Day that's in every kid.

unknown 19:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

So at the end of the day, I'm trying really, really hard never to say because I said so.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

There are times where the kids know if I say because I said so, they're in danger and we need to move fast. And so we've talked about it. But I want them to be formed, uh transformed into the image of Christ. Like I want them to imitate him. That's my greatest goal as a parent. Uh and that's hard. But I've I found that Jesus always said the why, and so I'm always going to say the why because the why matters. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

When your kids are always like interrupting you or saying why, on some level, it's because they're still growing in their trust of you to say, I can trust your why even if I don't know it yet. But we want you to develop your why.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

Yep. And also because they're selfish and want to do their own thing, but they need to have a bigger why than because ice cream sounds good right now. And so we always lead with the whys. But um, what I'm trying to do, what my invitation looks like, is like I'm pulling them into the process. I'm allowing them to ask questions, I'm allowing them to wrestle, which we have scripture that God allows us to do that as well. Um, I'm letting them disagree with respectfully. The phrase I use is affirm first and then question.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

So good.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

And so they'll say, I hear what you're saying, mom, but can I ask a question? And so there's some order in how we respectfully disagree. And then we sack hands on a solution that ultimately mimics what Jesus did. So we we hunt really hard for like, what? I wonder what this there's a story there. And um a little bit of a cheat code because we work in the church and we're studying scripture all the time. But um, you know, I would I would say even if you're not working in a church or pastoring, you should be craving scripture in such a way that it just helps guide you in all your choices.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

And if you're walking with Jesus as a son or as a daughter, whether you're a pastor or not, it doesn't matter. You're the pastor of your family. Yeah. And so you're experiencing and expressing more joy in Jesus, inviting them to follow you as you follow them. Like, and what I love again is you identified the situation, you stepped into it, you weren't in a hurry to get through it, you weren't in a hurry because I said so. Um, you invited Carson into the process. And something you've shared with me for decade over a decade now, that's changed the game for me is I am not trying to literally prepare the road for my kid, but I'm trying to prepare the kid for the road. Yeah. And that was a game changer for me. Yeah. Like you didn't rush to answer a question, you actually took more time and asked more questions and helped him say, okay. Why would I choose this? And also instead of being judgy, right? I'm I'm trying to think, well, how do we get to that spot in our life?

SPEAKER_01 22:07

And this is I actually I'm gonna cut in really quick. I'm so sorry. I actually think that there's a whole nother conversation we can have about what it looks like to prepare the road versus preparing your child. I think that a lot of parents can sack hands on the, yeah, I want to prepare my child for the road, but they don't know how they're accidentally trying to shape the road all the time for their children. And it comes in tons of different like uh ways. Uh and you know, I've done it too, so like there's no shame in it. But we want our kid, we feel like it's our job to protect them, and we feel like they're always the victim, and we feel like um the world's against them, and we can accidentally prepare the road, even when we think we're trying to prepare the child. And so we can just pencil this for another time. Maybe I will come back and do something else. But um, I think that would be a fun conversation to really dive in and develop, and something that I would maybe challenge you to think about right now. Are you preparing your child or are you preparing the road? And you can know you're preparing the road if you're always fearful to send your child out.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

That's good. And and an honest, healthy, humble conversation to say, I'd rather prepare the road than prepare my kid. It's easier, it's just not really effective because at some point they're walking their own roads.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

It's not long-term effective, it's short-term effective.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

And it's so helpful to look at the model of Jesus with his spiritual children, his disciples. Uh, it was a long obedience, it was a lot of conversations. We have some stuff recorded in the gospels, but there were a lot of conversations that weren't like the man smoking on the side of the road, right? Like this is discipleship. And what it isn't, it's not control, it's conversation. It's not a lecture, it's lab. Um, and that's what I love about the model that Jesus gave to us, that Jesus did with me and Jen as a son, as a daughter, that he does in our marriage, and then he does it with our babies, right? It's this invitation to experiencing the joy of Jesus and then reflecting it. And so every parenting decision that you and I make is for the glory of God and the good of our kids, but it is with a hope that they can see their identity as a son and as a daughter, and that they can understand that they could make decisions to appease us because they know what we want, or they could actually wrestle with what do they want and get to the heart of the issue, which is trusting and treasuring Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

Yeah, this um this transformation thing is a really big deal. And uh I think it's really important that we remember that we're after the affection of their heart, not the crafting of their behavior. And so uh we don't do the shoulds or ought to's. I want to. Yeah, it's easier like that. But it's better if we don't. And so as we invite them to imitate us, as we imitate the Father, we we have to stay focused on this transformation.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

Yeah, and they get a front row seat too. Is there really more joy in Jesus or is there not, right? And parenting does change as our kids get older. Um I mean, it is the same principles, but it starts to look different. Uh, and that's something that I love. Like you do a whole session, we've done it together, and you've done it at women's retreats and marriage conferences, uh, that you call it, and I always say it backwards, but it's a phrases for the phases. Right. So different phases, but every phase is a sacred space. Your family is your first joy-filled community of faith. And so I would just encourage you, even as you talk about pinning something for later, uh, now that we have it on record that you said you'll come back. Oh boy. Um, it is we want to have these conversations as family units because I do think that as mom and dad, we're the primary disciple makers of our kids. We love Hume Lake, we love to send our kids to youth group and to camp, but man, they're getting so much more as they live life with us. And so if you have questions, comments, concerns, things that you're wrestling with, um please send us a DM. Uh, we would love to hear that so we can interact more with you in the future. Now, that being said, right now we have a couple more minutes with our DMH family. So, Jen, what are some of those when you think about these three main phases, early, middle, and then older children, um, how do we consider that?

SPEAKER_01 26:05

Yeah. So the core idea behind this phrases for the phases is to create independent thinkers. Yep. Not independent from Jesus, but independent from mom or dad because I said so. In the corner of the room with a little finger kind of waving like that would be a bad choice. Um we can't be their governor all the time if we're gonna send them. If they're gonna live in your house forever, suppose you could try to do that.

SPEAKER_00 26:26

Yeah, but we don't suggest.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

We don't want that. Yeah. And so the phrases are to uh help them practice making the decisions. So I am trying to create um uh self-assessors. So uh an example of one of these phrases uh is you know, the boys are fighting with each other, and uh Carson and Braden, they're going on it, and I'm like, hey, and I stop them and I look at them, and I had two options. I could either stand over them and lecture them forever.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

And at this point you were taller than them still.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

I was still taller than them.

SPEAKER_00 26:59

And your looks can kill a young boy.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

Um okay. So yes, I can be very strong and stern. Thank you, Drew, for pointing that out. And um I I had that opportunity where I was like, we don't do that to your brother. Why would you absolutely do that? That's not okay. You can't be you don't want to be treated like that and you just keep going. And we've watched, we've watched parents do it. I've done it myself, where you're just going and going and going and going, and you leave and they leave, and they're like, What the heck just happened to mom? They have no idea what was just said. And I leave being like, oh my gosh, I just released all the adrenaline and cortisol my body has, and I'm so mad at them. Why would they do that? And literally, it was a loss. I lectured at them at high energy, and we left with a loss. And so I kind of changed my tactics.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

I just remember this moment and I'm laughing, and most of you guys are listening as you drive or whatever, but Jen is a five foot two Italian woman, and we often joke that when there's four fingers out, you're in trouble. Oh boy. Even as you told the story, there were four fingers. It wasn't one, it was four. So I always know how much trouble I'm in based on the amount of fingers. But I remember reflecting as a couple after that, um, because the principles aren't changing. I want the glory of God, I want them to grow, I want them to understand, but the application does. Like how I do what I do is what I'm really focused on. Yeah. Like how to do this. And that's really where these phrases came from.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

Um, so at a really young age, we we've got a lot, but what's your favorite one?

SPEAKER_01 28:25

Yeah. So uh the second time the boys got in a fight, I said, Hey, stop the situation really fast. And they looked at the one who had caused it, and I said, Are you being helpful or hurtful right now?

SPEAKER_00 28:37

Boom.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

And that was it. It stopped them in their tracks. They had to self-assess, they had to look at each other, and they had to own something. And Cars or Braden was like, uh hurtful. And I go, Okay, thanks for being honest. Do you want to say something to Carson? And he's like, I don't like it when you do A, B, and C, but I didn't need to do that. And now they became communicators. Right. Like, what? And so it was accidentally awesome.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

They just became better employees, husbands at the age of six. All the things.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

And so we started practicing these phrases that allowed them to be self-thinkers, self-assessors, um, people who asked for forgiveness, and people who sought uh restoration, and then they were able to move on from there. And we've watched them do it to their friends in their schools. It's changed whole classrooms because of this high school baseball pedology.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

Well, and for us at a young age, it was tools in their tool belts. It was simple language, clear phrases that they could comprehend and actually buy and stack hands. We use that language as a family. Store in their long-term memory. It was repetition, but it was modeled, not just for them together, but even for us together.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

Yeah. And then as they got older, yeah, things changed a little bit as they got older. We didn't add more phrases.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

Sometimes I think when they were younger, there was a lot of phrases, and when they were older, you could pick one or two things that they were like working on, and they would actually stack hands with, okay, I'm really struggling with being judgy, so what should I say? And we would come up with different phrases. And so it was less, less phrases, more dialogue, more explanation, um, more problem solving. I would say, okay, well, I feel like there's two ways to solve this problem. Which which way do you see fit? And they would again revert back to like, well, I mean, I've seen Jesus do this, and um we would talk about it and they would have ownership in it.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

And and it is fun as they get older, and again, there's so many phrases that we use and different like steps in that process. Um, but for our older kids, it is this conversation, this dialogue, this space that we've created.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

Yeah. As they've gotten older, particularly the boys right now, our daughter isn't quite old enough to exercise. She's in the middle years. These the boys are in their older years. I've I've really reflected on we say in the world we want our boys to uh you know grow up and and be strong leaders and and be confident and independent. But if we don't give them space to actually exercise that muscle and do it in some sort of coaching format, which is what a parent is, they get to help coach, then we send them out into the world and they have to fumble their way through until they find it. And so these last few years, pretty much like 15 through the day we send them. I start to uh lead from second chair very intentionally. And so they know I'm still the mom and they know that I'm still that Italian mean girl if I need to be, but um they they are brought into more of the decisions. They're brought into the space where we say, Well, we trust you, what do you think? Like uh they're setting schedules, they're organizing calendars, they're um deciding uh what parties to go to. No isn't really the answer. It's like, well, what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 31:48

Why?

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Let's talk about all the the parts, and then they come to their no or their yes.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

And um it's scary. Like it is a scary parenting uh method, but you know, it hasn't failed us yet. And um, I believe that's because their character's been developed uh before their skill or before their wants or before their um socialness, like they're hunting down their character to mimic Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

And there's so many like tactics and tools that we've done, like making them pay for half of their baseball dues and recycling cans and mowing lawns, and we're giving them opportunities to grow in their responsibilities so that they know what the decision cost is. They know the why behind the what. And and here's the big idea with disciples made here someone's always watching. So this idea of imitate, part of what's so scary, they see our flesh, they see our sin, uh, they see all of that. And so I'm just quick to say, hey, follow me, guys, as I follow Christ, right? Like I'm trying to invite them into my walk with Jesus because imitate's gonna take them a lot further than obey because I have to, um, because I said so. The why matters, and that's why Paul says, imitate me as I imitate Christ, not because I said so. Um, and so I'm modeling what does it look like for them to follow me as I follow Christ? They get to see repentance. Um, dad's not the hero. Like, I don't want to be the hero of their life. I want them to know Jesus is the hero of my life, and following me means they get to follow Jesus. Um, God is the hero. And so what they see in me then is this brokenness, this transformation, this repentance that I actually think benefits them way more than them thinking that dad's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

No, and you're really good at that. I'm not so good at that. That's not I'm good at being you're good at being you're good at asking for forgiveness and modeling, I messed up there, and I want to be like, don't do what I do, do what I say. You know, I want to do that.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

You just do genuinely make less mistakes than me. So that's part of it. But I've early on as a parent, I was like, I don't have this all figured out. Yeah. Not my faith, not my marriage, not my babies. And I think that humility drives a follow me as I follow, right? It allows me to be transparent in that.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

Because you've been open to saying, hey, I was wrong here. Let me let me restore this relationship with you. They've been open to doing that to each other and to us and to everybody.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

And I and I love that, right? It is about the scorecard. The language that we use is it's heaven over Harvard. Yeah. Um I'm o I'm not opposed to my kids going to Harvard if they get a full ride. Yeah, I don't want to pay for Harvard.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

But I don't care if they go to Harvard and they don't go to heaven. I will hate that.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

Yeah, that's a big old loss.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Yeah. So heaven is the top of our scorecard. We talk about this at the house. We either have a kingdom scorecard or a worldly scorecard. And so uh I think sometimes, even the church, we get those scorecards messed up. The the kingdom scorecard is imitating Christ. It is heaven, it is relationship with the Father. That's why he sent Jesus, this restoration of relationship. And so um I we have to be really cautious that we aren't focusing on the worldly scorecard, good grades, a house, a job. None of those are bad. Harvard's not bad, but heaven trumps Harvard.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

Yeah, and it is about I want you happier tomorrow than you are today, and that's gonna happen in Jesus, not in all those other things. Nope. That your identity is driven as a son of the king. Um, and so one thing I feel like my kids have seen in me consistently and in us, um, but with me, with vintage grace, like their pastors' kids, their church planner kids, their disciples made here kids, uh, they consistently see this in me. They see my brokenness, um, they see God's goodness, uh, they see restoration, that God's loving kindness calls me to repentance, not shame and hiding in the corner. Um, they see restoration in our marriage, even when we fight appropriately in front of them and gets up, we miss this one. Um, they also see my personal joy and they see the kingdom advancing, and they see what makes dad happy. Um, not because they saw it on stage, but because they saw it in the kitchen and they saw it on the ball field, um, and they get to understand what this looks like. And what's fun now is our kids have gotten older is they see themselves as a son and ascent one. So they have their own pray-watch list.

SPEAKER_02 35:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

And I get to do with them, I get to be like their wingman in the gospel and be like, you go live out the gospel, and how can I help as a coach? Or what does this look like? And this powerful process of us dripping the gospel for 19 years and now getting to participate with them. And again, this is a whole nother episode, probably, but this idea of like, what are the camping trips? We've designed camping trips for our kids. Sure. Not literally, because my version of camping is Marriott, um, not actual camping, but like we've done like a 10-year-old trip for our kids to have all the hard conversations about life and brokenness in this world. We have a 13-year-old mission trip we try to take them on, like really practical, intentional trips. Or 16-year-old, I invite them into a study called Desiring God that I do with a bunch of the men at our church or Voice of the Heart. How as a man do you know how to deal with your emotions? Because you're not real men don't cry. No, I weeping is worship. And so these have been like placeholders that we've done as a family to help our boys become men and our daughter become again the the son of uh the son and the daughter of the king.

SPEAKER_01 36:41

Because parenting is the most sacred discipleship community we're a part of.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

The hardest and the best.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

It's um it is the hardest space. It has made me cry more and be joyful more than any other space in my life. And so I think it's my encouragement when we talk about these things. Uh neither of us are encouraging you to add more to your parenting. It's about being present and intentional about all of the things. And I know how tired you are. Good Lord, I am so tired. I want to tell them, just go to bed and we will talk about it in the morning. But really, I'm not gonna talk about it in the morning. I'm just done, I'm cooked, I don't want to talk about it anymore. But I miss that opportunity to invite them to learn Jesus, the world, and their why. And that means I miss an opportunity to shape them and form them into the image of Christ. And so I am uh honored to be a parent and that I get to learn alongside of my children. And I would encourage you to find the algorithm. I know that's a funny word, it's a math word, but find the algorithm of how to respond to each situation that builds affections and not behavior. Because at the end of the day, we want them to want Jesus and nothing else.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

Yeah. And and I love how you've just been patient with me as a dad. We've been patient as a couple. Um, it's not some grandiose like this is it. Even those trips, don't misunderstand me. Like, it's not like that's the climax. It's all the little mundane, and you see it, they're imitating us. So that's why your R1 is so important, your relationship with God. That's why we say abide over achieve. Um, and my hope is even as we just share in transparency, just some of our fun stories and some of our heartbreaking stories, that again, it does stir things in your heart as a mom or as a dad. And maybe you don't have kids, but you're a spiritual parent. Um, you're inviting people in. Discipleship is not made on a stage on Sundays, it's made on Mondays, wherever it is that you're living. And so send us those questions, those comments. Um, again, it Jen's committed to doing more of these with me, which I appreciate because I do feel like the the church is formed in the home. Um, that that is your first joy-filled community of faith. And so we're honored as a couple, as a as a team at Disciples Made here to walk this with you because it does. It starts at home. Um, it starts everywhere that you live, work, and play, and yet nothing better than going to do that with your kids as your first joyful community of faith. So we love you guys, and uh, we'll dive in more to the innovation side this next week.