The Best Leaders Are Great Followers featuring Rick Dunn

In this episode of the Disciples Made Here podcast, Drew sits down with one of his closest friends, mentors, and pastors — Rick Dunn. This is a conversation that has been over a decade in the making, and it shows.
Rick is a pastor, leadership coach, and spiritual father who has spent decades helping leaders stop trying to be God and start being sons. In this episode, he and Drew unpack what it actually looks like to move from identify to invite — not by launching a program or a gospel presentation, but by simply showing up. With compassion. With courage. With curiosity.
From the story of how Drew and Rick met in a small cohort of large church pastors, to Rick's time coaching basketball as his most meaningful ministry, to the moment his own daughter told him "now you'll know the impact" — this episode is a masterclass in what faithful, humble, proximate discipleship actually looks like over a lifetime.
Rick also introduces one of the most clarifying phrases in the episode: compassionate courageous curiosity. And closes with a word that every listener needs to hear. You have the freedom to be faithful. So get in the game.
Most people die with their music still inside of them. Don't be one of them.
⸻
Reflection Questions

Who has shown up for you in a way that changed your life? Have you told them?
Who in your life right now is looking for someone to show up for them? What would it look like to take one step toward them this week?
Are you approaching the people around you with compassionate courageous curiosity — or are you leading with your title, your agenda, or your fear?

⸻
Connect With Disciples Made Here
Instagram https://www.instagram.com/disciplesmadehere/
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/disciplesmadehere
Website https://disciplesmadehere.org/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Hey, welcome back to the Disciples Made Here podcast with your host Drew Soderstrom. Uh this last week we got done with the first part of the diamond. And so if you didn't get a chance to pick up the book and walk through it, again, still engage with us in the podcast, but I do think journaling through the book will be helpful for you as you continue to wrestle with what does it mean for me to recognize my call as a son and then a sent one to faithfully follow Jesus as the rabbi, the Lord of the harvest, to be covered in his dust. And so that was really our hope during week one as we started walking through the diamond was just essentially how do we start to identify the people, the places, the spaces where the Spirit of the living God is meeting with you and leading you as you walk with him. And so probably week one, you experienced a little bit of like, wait, isn't there more? Shouldn't we be doing more? All I'm doing is praying. Um remember, we do believe that prayer is the work. And so if you didn't get a chance to grab one of those stickers, it's online. Our team has those up there. Again, for me, it literally just goes on the back of my phone. Um, it goes on this location that regularly I pick it up. It's that reminder that he's the Lord of the harvest, that he's right here. And one of the things that I really hope you started to see as you were praying in these different places and spaces, you set your alarm for 938, was simply that, man, I'm seeing some of the same people on repeat, whether it be at Starbucks, at student drop-off, wherever it is that you live or can play, I genuinely believe that the Lord of the Harvest has intersected those spaces with different places and faces for you to be the living proof of loving God. And so we're identifying in week one, and we're gonna get ready now to pivot into week two, which is invite. And we're not inviting them to church, we're inviting them into relationship with us as we follow Jesus. And so today's really, really special for me personally, um, because while we're praying to identify, we're looking for who can we invite, or maybe you're trying to pray and say, Lord, who can I follow as they follow Jesus? And so today I want to introduce you to really, I'd say he's one of my best friends, but he's also my pastor, um, my mentor, my coach. Um, this is a guy that has essentially invited me into his life. He's given me a front row seat to his work, his marriage, his parenting, his highs, his lows, um, everything, so that I might follow him as he follows Jesus. And so, Rick, man, this is such a gift. This is Rick Dunn. Um, so he's a pastor, I'd say in Knoxville, I'd say in Colorado, but I'm in California. You're my pastor, you're a pastor in California, um, you're all over leading organizations and leaders. But thanks for being our guest today, man. This is truly a gift because I get to see you, which I don't see you every day. So thanks for being here, brother.

SPEAKER_02 2:33

Well, it's really good. And I, you know, I've had the privilege, talking about a front row seat. I've watched this vision for Disciples Made Here. I've watched this emerged year after year after year. So I feel a little bit like I'm kind of crossing the finish line in a little victory dance with you.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

Yeah. Well, and it is incredible. And again, you've been such a gracious coach to me, but also encourager um and critique in a healthy way because you love me. Like, what about this? And what about this? And so today we're just gonna pick up this in-between invite and an identify situation. You and I met, man, I'm I think we're at a decade now. It might be a little bit more, honestly. This may have been more, yeah. So, Mike, I know why I invited you to let me follow you, but why did you invite me to follow you? Like, I just saw in you, we were in a cohort, small cohort, yeah, again, a bunch of large church pastors and a bunch of like, I think I had just planted, so yeah, maybe 12 or 13 years old. I knew I wanted to chase you because I saw in you the spirit of the living God reflecting off of you. I saw your humility, and so I'm like, please let me sit at your feet in a healthy way. Why'd you say yes? Why would you let me follow you?

SPEAKER_02 3:43

You know, I've never actually thought about that question until you kind of prompted it. I uh, you know, Drew, when I share my heart and who I am, uh you know this too. They're just certain people that there's a connection to. Like you sense the father is saying, Hey, that's a person who's somehow of your tribe. You somehow there's a heart song, a heart language that you guys are just kind of sharing together, even though you've never met, even though you don't know each other. And then uh I shared some pretty challenging things in that particular cohort environment. And I think most people walked out the door thinking, I'm glad he won't be in the next meeting. And you uh you followed me out the door and had a bunch of questions. And I I my favorite people are learners, which actually is kind of probably your favorite people too, because learners are disciples, right? They're being discipled. So so you're just a voracious learner and a passion, and I love to make myself available in whatever way I can for the spirit to speak to others who are just going to turn around and multiply that. And you and Jen uh are multipliers, and so it's it's great. But if I took all of that away, I just love you. I just love you, and I value every moment we get together and the depth of our conversation. And I told you that you know, you're one of the few people in life who's like just keeps coming. Yeah, but what about this? And what about this? And how do you do like your desire to learn is just it's very uh I love it. I love you, and I love that.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

Yeah, well, and I think it's humbling for me. I remember being in that room, and like I said, I was probably the smallest church pastor in the room. You were probably the biggest, but no one would have known you were the biggest. It wasn't what you cared about. What you cared about was the one you cared about, which in that context was just me. I was just this one that was like, How do I be faithful? Uh again, I'm not anti-church growth, but that's not my goal. My goal is everyone has one. Um, and so how do we actually live that out? And so, in this leadership culture, because literally now, as you kind of transition from senior pastor to leadership coach, um, I struggle with the word leadership in the Church of America because I'm actually convinced that's part of the problem. Everyone wants to be a leader, no one wants to be a follower of Jesus. He's my leader. Help me wrestle with that transition or that tension between the best leaders are actually great followers. So I'm not saying I'm a great leader, but I do think that the strength of my leadership is because I'm following you. So, how does that work in this leadership culture of America in the church that we want everyone to be a follower and a learner of Jesus?

SPEAKER_02 6:12

Well, part of it, if you were to uh anytime after May of 2026, you can go to my website, Whitehorse, and you'll see that our vision that we exist to hopefully bring a reformation of how uh the kingdom of people who are uh serving in the kingdom of God think about and use the concept of leadership. So I'm with you. Uh I think it got hijacked for some uh growth models that were that and well intended, well intended, but really became about like measuring external success, measuring numbers, uh following if this model worked here, let's make this model work here, and and ultimately it became about the things of leadership, the things of doing leadership. So let's take the whole word out and and and what is the scriptures going to teach us? Well, Jesus was rabbi and they followed him. But you could have called him leader, you could have called him George. I mean, the point is they they followed him, and the point is he said, follow me. And when Paul is teaching young Timothy, he says, Hey, the things you've seen in me, now go do that for other people and teach them how to teach other people to follow. And he gives Timothy in 2 Timothy 2, he gives him a four-generation vision of following. So whatever you want to do with the word leadership, and I use it because I work a lot with people who are leading organizations, leading teams, they have some kind of a some kind of a role that they're in. And what happens is is somehow now I become the leader and I do something different than helping develop followers of Jesus. And that's where it goes off the rails. It might be scale, it might be formality, it might be vocation. At the end of the day, we're all we should all be talking about the same thing is how do we help people learn to follow Jesus? And and I'll say one more thing about this. I'm a little passionate about it. I love it. Um look, leaders, when we're leading people, when we're trying to move people, we have a certain cadence about us. And we need to pay attention to that cadence because whatever that cadence is, is what people are following. And Jesus' cadence was the heart of the Father. It wasn't the disciples, it wasn't the crowds, it sure wasn't the institutions. His cadence was the Father. What I see the Father's doing, I follow him. Wherever the Father says, I go. I just want to be with you, Father. Hey, look at all these people wanting to follow me. I got to go spend time with the Father. So what happens? The cadence is that the disciples learn how to follow Jesus as he follows the Father. Now we are following Jesus as he follows the Father, but the heartbeat, the cadence must come from the Father, Drew. Not our job, not our position, not our task, not what people expect of us.

SPEAKER_01 8:48

Yeah. No, I love that. And I'll often tell pastors, even our church, the best thing I offer my church is my walk with Jesus. Um I love the way you said that because I'll often go there. You went one step further. The best thing Jesus offers us is actually to be with the Father.

SPEAKER_02 9:01

If you read John 17, the high priestly prayer, before all of this horrific event goes down, it's what he's thinking about. The father, relation to the father, disciples' relationship with the father. And when he says on the cross it's finished, he's like, We've done, I've brought the I've brought home your children. I've made by grace the accessibility to the father's heart. And so I really believe that. But it's you know, all that can be semantics or ordering. What's really essential is where our heart is going, is where the people who are looking toward us are following. That's what they're following.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

So it's where it is your heart pointed. Yeah. It's like it's like why I say we don't ever try to encourage you to evangelize, we just try to encourage you to fall in love with Jesus and follow him, because then that will flow out of you and you will share that, and that's what people will get from you, is what you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

I think at Disciples Made Here, one of the things I love about what you're doing and why I've been like your hugest fan. Maybe Jen's being your biggest fan, but I'm I've got to be close to second, maybe two or three other people. But but is because it's that and making that heart accessible to people is is becoming aware of how do I make that heart that's following Jesus accessible to people in presence. And and in this in this mama, in this generation, in this culture, I I believe your instinct is right on. We don't need a bunch more leaders, but we need a lot more accessibility to the heart of Jesus and the Father through his disciples.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

That's so good. And I think part of what drew me to you 12 years ago, whatever that was, was that here you were, again, professor, um, written a gazillion books, big church, and I didn't know any, I had to like find that out about you from other people. You were just really in love with Jesus, and there was something about you that I was like, man, I'm drawn into. And so I was not drawn to your leadership as much as your following of Yahweh, of the Spirit. Um, one of the things I love about you, and I didn't even think about this till I just grabbed my coffee a second ago, but I'm I'm holding one of my coach Drew Cups, you know, like the end of the year, kids buy you stuff. One of the first things I heard about you at that time, you were still coaching regularly. And it was like that made you just as excited as preaching a sermon, maybe more excited than preaching a sermon. It was as you were living, working, and playing. Um, when you look back at those days as a you're still a leader, but you were a leader, but you were the lead follower, the lead coach. What was it about coaching that helped you say, no, this is where I make disciples? I make disciples not at my church on a Sunday, but on the court on Saturday.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

Yeah. So, well, first of all, I think one of the things that may have uh drawn you to me is I'm pretty much a hot mess. And so we can we join each other on that, right? And and the need for Jesus is we're so aware of that. And I think that's the thing that moves us me towards him is I can't believe there just is so much grace. I can't believe he pursues me. I can't believe he's so attentive and so affectionate. And so um, but what happened for me is I said to my the church, I this is because of the things you just described, the nature of what I was doing, it was very removed from the I could live and exist in a little bit of a you know of a of a of a distance from people. I said, I loved coach basketball. It's my one of my great passions. I wanted to be a high school basketball coach. God didn't call me to do that. I wrote a novel about it, but uh, I mean I love it. Um but uh it I said to my the elders, if you'll give me this time away, I'll invest it in the community and invite people to know Jesus in those kinds of contexts. And one of my favorite things ever happened is one of my players showed up at uh church, the church I was leading, I was up on the platform and he turned to his dad and says, What's my coach doing here? I love that. Yeah. So he had no idea was a pastor, and that because it doesn't drew these titles. They're uh they can one, they can get in the way, but second, they're just they're all it is is just a moment, a container, a season that we happen to be in. Uh some people say I was the lead pastor of fellowship church for 22 years. Actually, I was the interim lead pastor for 22 years. It was never mine. I never owned that. Uh steward at the moment, uh, but but that's not the that's not our identity, that's not who we are. We're sons. This is you talk about this so well. We're we're sons, and you and I are brothers. And yes, I have uh a good bit of age on you, a lot of age on you, and a lot of experience that I love to share with you. And I've got a uh, you know, like a I got an entire toolbox full of things I did really stupid that I say, don't do this, Drew. Yep, amen. Um but but but what it really comes down to is we both are hoping to sit at Jesus' feet and learn from the rabbi and me to say, hey Drew, you know, he's right about that because here's what happened to me.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

Yep, yeah. No, I love that. Now, for me, something I've seen from you, and you've challenged me as a leader to be the lead follower and and again call the rabbi. Uh, you made a comment to me years ago in one of our sessions. You talked about, man, I I love that you come with a gazillion questions. So I always joke, I'm a learner, it's my number one strength finder gift, but also it's probably because I have so much to learn. But I am hungry to be faithful. And something I appreciate about you is, man, we're not pursuing the flashy, we're pursuing the faithful, the day in on the basketball court. Like that was a cool moment on the stage, but really it was all those micro practices that included discipline. When we're praying and identifying someone to follow, I assume for you it made it easy for you to invite me in because I kept asking, right? Like, hey Rick, hey, Rick, hey Rick. Um, how do we identify those people? So, one way for me is they're asking good questions. They actually want to follow me as I follow Jesus. How else do I identify them on the basketball court at work, right? Not pastorally, but as a follower of Christ. Well, give me some insight over these years you've learned.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Well, let me give you a phrase that I think is helpful for us to think about for ourselves and other people. And that's uh compassionate, courageous curiosity. I love that. That I move towards myself and I move towards other people with grace, compassion, uh, courageous. I'm willing to take the risk of like, well, that might have been wrong about that. There it might not have worked, or that didn't turn out. And then curiosity is like, I just genuinely want to know. And here's the thing everybody wants to be known, seen, uh, understood, and loved. And so you're with a person, you have a conversation, you do something, and you can feel it's like they're opening the door a little bit, either with their question or with how they're offering themselves to you, to be known more. Wow. And and what I want to do is match that. It's like, hey, I'd really like to get to know you more, but I'm gonna offer that by letting them know me more too, and just being open. So it's not like a one-way thing where like if they can open the door, I can know them. And I got to be able to take the risk of of myself being known because that's the only way they're gonna get access to the heart. So it to me is very organic. It's very much a sense of the spirit of God has somehow put within that person in that moment that curiosity or something, and put within me the proximity to actually have a conversation. And the conversation, uh, I just have spent a good bit of time recently in places where I'm I or my wife and I may be the only Christians in the entire context.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:09

And if I lead with, hey, I used to be the pastor of this church in the South, you know, I always tell people, here's the way you kill a conversation on a plane. Tell people that you're a southern Christian mega church pastor. Nobody has to talk to you. Nobody has to talk to you. Yep. So it'll shut it down. It'll shut it down. But what won't shut it down is like curiosity, kindness, genuine uh attention, attentiveness to people, and wanting to offer who you are to them, not what you do or what your title is. Yep. And just being present with Jesus' character. I feel like that's an opportunity for me to bring Jesus into the room. And yes, are words going to be important at some point? Absolutely. But the words will take care of themselves if we enter in with the the Spirit of God.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Yeah. I I want to say those three words again, because these are words that I'm trying to practice. But compassion, courageous, curiosity. And the word compassion for me, we've talked about this. All right, we call everybody to set their alarms for 938, flowing from 936 in Matthew, where Jesus says he has compassion on them because they are sheep without a shepherd. And so it's like, man, when our heart breaks, and I say all the time, if you don't weep over people, you'll never win them for Christ. Now we don't win anybody for Christ. We literally don't win. Right. We win by leading with a limp, right? We win by, and that's that courage, right? That I'm to be courageous in my brokenness, I'm gonna be courageous in my invitation. So this week, in theory, we've been praying about Lord, who can we invite into a relationship with us, not invite to church, but say, hey, come coach with me. Like I've invited people to coach with me, I've invited people to parent with me, I've invited people to serve with me. Um, and they don't always get a beautiful picture of Jesus, they get a picture of little Andrew, right? I mean, that's language I've gotten from you. How do I disciple little Andrew from Ephesians 4? Uh and so I love that. So again, compassion means that we love them in their brokenness because God loved us in our brokenness for me. Courage means I'm gonna invite you in, even if it might be rejection, even if it might be you don't want it, uh, I'm gonna lead with a limp, and then curiosity. I just am convinced everybody wants to be happier tomorrow than they are today. And so if they see that in Rick and his brokenness, then they're gonna actually be like, all right, how do I get that? Um and so I just want to say thank you for leading that way. Like again, all these titles, your best title is I'm just little Ricky trying to follow Jesus. Um and I've seen that from old Oak Ridge all the way through to today.

SPEAKER_02 18:31

So well, I I appreciate that. I think that um you you were telling me everybody just wants to be better or happier, you know, the next day. Like it's not like people in general are thriving, Drew. It's not like the people want I don't care what it looks like. I saw this t-shirt the other day said something, everyone around you is having a really huge struggle you can't see, kind of a asking for kindness. So you have a an entire moment in in a in time when people are very anxious, they're very spun up, everything's there's uncertainty, and people are just really open. And to walk in with compassion and courage and curiosity is to invite people to a different kind of conversation. And we're not responsible for who takes the invitation. That's not our that that's not I don't I I don't take it's not mine to do. We're just there to make it accessible in a way that feels like Jesus. And this, I'm gonna say this back to this is the problem I feel like that you and I have with some of the leadership culture, not all, but some of the leadership culture we my generation have actually produced, was that let's bypass humility to get big things done for God. And it's much better to do small things for a big God and let Him decide what to do with it than to actually practice the I don't know, I mean you you can write books about Jesus and leadership, you can do all kinds of things, but there's only one thing I can tell you for sure that he did was humility. And so if we miss, if we bypass that to get kingdom stuff done, it the fruit is not good long term. It might for a moment pop something, make put us on put our name out there, do something. It's not going, it's not eternal fruit.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

Yeah. I had a bunch of young adults over at my house last night were sitting around the campfire, and they're like, What's a sabbatical? Like, you know, these are young men that have come to faith that are at our church now, and and I'm like, uh, and I had to parse like what sabbatical was. I said, Well, go all the way back to Yahweh's design for Sabbath and not accomplishing something for a day because you trust him. And imagine what it would be like, of course, right? If you had a great harvest year and you're like, This is our sabbatical, you know, like what we're not gonna reap it because God doesn't need us to have fruit because he's the Lord of the harvest. And I just feel like I've experienced that so much more as I just get a couple years further down the road and I watch guys like you and follow guys like you. God doesn't need me to achieve anything.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

No, and when we come to that place, we purify and clarify our invitation to the world. We purify it from our motives of why we're doing this, and we clarify hey, uh I'm a beggar, I found bread, I bet you're a beggar too. Would you like to for me to share some bread with you? Like that's really that's as far as we're gonna get that's really about as sophisticated as it's gonna get.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Yep. And that's the invitation. Follow me as I follow the baker, right? Like Lord of the Harvest. And so for me, there's just this freedom. I I think I grew up in this culture, my old leadership style, and I tell guys this all the time, I hope it's like 20 years old and not two years old. I think it's 20 years old. I'd run ahead of people and be like, Come on, guys, let's go. And I think it was an invitation, but I was probably yelling. Like, come on, like intense coaching. And it's like, no, man, let's just limp along together. And that's where I I just wish everybody could have, and they can if they go to your website, they can have more time with you. But like, I just wish everyone could have what we have, which is just this I'm a Beggar, you're a beggar, you know the baker, meet dad, and it's just so freeing, um, exciting, inviting. And I actually think the harvest is plentiful. There's a lot of people out there that are looking to be fed, and Jesus is the answer. Um, who are some of the people that walked with you? Like, by God's grace, I've got you. Um, I've got two main pastors, Todd and Rick Dunn, and I'm with you guys all the time, as much as I possibly can. Who are some of the people that walked with you and lessons that you got from them, almost like not in a classroom, but just at the bakery, metaphorically?

SPEAKER_02 22:32

Well, it's funny because the the person who's walked with me the longest is named Baker. That's funny, isn't it? That's his last name's Baker. I didn't either, so we'll take it. Uh his last name's Baker. He I first worked at a camp when I was 15 years old and his wife directing the camp. And I am uh 65, so this is our 50th year of conversation. Wow. Wow. That's a that's a great gift. Um, my first pastor had a name you'll recognize in California. My first pastor that I worked for is named Ronald Reagan. Okay. But yeah, Ron Reagan. Uh and Ron uh taught me the compassion part. He his his depth of compassion for, I mean, we had a lot of people at church were really hurting him, couldn't go to any other church, but he made a way for them. So the compassion. Um I when I was in seminary, I had uh some really wonderful men, Mark Center, uh Perry Downs, I would say were really Ted Ward sharp in my thinking. So I've had a lot of those folks. And I will also tell you, I don't know that I've had that many people um immediately available because I was in the quote leadership position. And it's really harder to find people who are comfortable walking with you and because that position, you know, this, the position can actually become a barrier and a wall because every conversation I walk into for 22 years, I'm not Rick Dunn. I'm the lead pastor of Fellowship Church. Right. And it's one of the things I love about when I'm in Colorado, working in Colorado now when we come up, is I'm not I'm just Rick and friends of some people out there. Um but I think that I've I've had those people, but the the things that I learned from them were surrender, um, to to embrace who God had called me to be and made me to be, to sharpen the way I think and the way I I relate. Those were the gifts that I had. Um and one of the reasons I you'll hear this here in this my podcast is I was a fair I was a feral leader. I didn't really have that leadership coach, that leadership person who just stepped in my life and and and so one of the main reasons I do what I do now is I don't want people who are in a leadership position, whatever you call it, to be alone. I just don't want them to be alone. And so I want to say that I've had some wonderful people, um, but I've also had a some places in my life where I I longed for, even reached out. I remember I went to a a pastor in another city and I sat down with him and I said, Man, I I just need somebody that's done this before and can help walk with me. And and he said, Oh, that'd be great. No, and then I reached out to him and he never returned my calls, you know. And I I was just like But you know, it does something to you. You're thinking, like, man, is there something here? It it really was very hurtful to me. Yeah. So I take really seriously, doing the very best I can to be available in in the ways that make sense and with the people God's called me to invest in.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

Yeah. And I feel like it was Wally Norling who's with Jesus now for me, but he was one of our district superintendents. I think he was involved in 45 church plants. Um, one of the most main things he did for me was not just walk the walk through the text with me all the time, but also just say, Hey Drew, senior pastors and senior leaders are the most insecure people in the world. Um, and you might be one soon, so you better get over yourself now or you won't be into the kingdom. And just recognizing that humility is like the only prerequisite, right? Like, yeah. I mean, what did you I have nothing, I am nothing, but you are everything.

SPEAKER_02 26:13

So Yeah, and I've heard you talk about Wally. Like, what are the one or two things about him were like the most amazing to you? Like, because it's not that he did this or did that. Like, what do you remember about Wally that you miss?

SPEAKER_01 26:23

And I only got the end of his life, right? And so part of that for me was it was stories from other guys. But I mean, Wally, I mean, he discipled Chuck Swindahl, he discipled Larry Osborne, like these guys that I either became friends with or learned from or from a distance or whatever it might be. But what I always got from him as a younger man at your life stage, or maybe even at my life stage right now, was he played basketball with all these insecure scenic pastors. He invited them to golf, he invited them to his house, he shared about his broken marriage, he just led with a limp. And it wasn't that Wally was some Uber gift, like Rick Dunn is a gifted dang leader, and that's awesome. But you've never been enamored with your gifting. I don't know if Wally had the same gifting that Rick Dunn did. I didn't know him at that life stage. What I do know is he was Wally faithful. He was just, I'm all in with you, I'm gonna look you in the eyes. In this world of everyone moving so fast and being so busy, he was like, I'm right here, I'm fully present. You you used the word proximity earlier, and I know that that means like you've been in my house. We don't live close to each other. Like, I've been in your home, I've been in that room. I've like, um, these are all real things, but you almost kind of have to fight for it. You have to want it, and in humility, that brings you to that point of wanting it. And again, heartbreaking that you reached out as a young pastor and didn't get it. So, by God's grace, your fruit of that experience led to my fruit of my relationship with you. Because then when I come to you as that guy, you're like, How can I help? Um, but again, you invited me to your house. Uh, you didn't invite me to a class or a lecture, or which is fine. I learned that way too. Um, but you invited me. So I think Wally invited people in. They had, I mean, I sat in his kitchen. Um those things.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

Well, I I think that's very profound, actually. When I uh my daughter said uh when I left being Lee Pastor Fellowship Church, uh two things. One, my daughter said, You've you've been speaking to so many people, but you don't know the impact. Now you're gonna speak to you're gonna be with very few people, but you'll know the impact. That was sweet. The other thing that was really sweet is I I didn't go back. I'd go I attend the church still. I was in uh uh what's it called? P8 yesterday. I was with four year olds. I'm a I'm a kids' ministry volunteer in my church, so I was with kids yesterday. And um, but I can't I took six weeks off to just give RD the guy who came after me at the time and I said, Hey, I'd like to come back. He said, Come on back. Drew, I walked in and uh the greeter at the door had no idea who I was. So good. And it didn't offend you. You weren't I would tell you this. Yeah, I I love stewarding that role. I love stewarding the the ways I get to speak in people's lives now. But there is something sweeter about anonymity and Jesus than there is public recognition in Jesus. And so if you have the public recognition, that's fine, steward it. That's we all you got to do that. I it's part of my role. But I'm telling you, the wallies of the world that aren't known and aren't referenced and aren't didn't do this or that, I think there's greater joy. And because you just know it's just you and Jesus and people. And so if you have people listening to this and I'm not a pastor, I'm not yay! Like, yeah, you have so fewer barriers to get to do this.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Just just be present. Yeah, you talk about the stumbling blocks that you bring with some of your roles, and yet the reality is as a basketball coach, I'd argue that was some of your most meaningful ministry. Um, and I know that's true of Wally, I know it's true of me. That's why I get these mugs. We were at dinner the other night as uh as couples, and these kids ran up, and I didn't recognize them because I coached them so long ago, and now they're young women, and I'm like, who are you? Why are you talking to Jen? And Jen's like, this is so and so. And I'm like, wow, like you don't know the impact you're making. I think my passion for disciples made here is if people just got this, like I have this dream and this vision, and I I have issues with the Church of America because we're not actually hitting the mark of making disciples make disciples. That's the whole point of this podcast to help you be a disciple where you live, work, and play. But I really actually believe that the Lord is the Lord of the harvest, that the harvest is plentiful, and that the answer is inside of our heart as we follow him. Like, could you imagine 10 years from today, 20 years, because my dream, my my dream for disciples made here is that every person at every church would say, Man, I am making disciples where I live, work, and play. Like, what would that be like? Not that my church grew, which by the way, your church would grow like gangbusters if everyone in your church said that, but not for the growth of your church, but for the growth of the kingdom, for the yet to believe to come to faith, um, for again, for us to storm the gates of hell. Could could we get there, man? I mean, I know you're further down the road, but it's my dream, and I'm gonna die trying to empower every saint to be a sent one.

SPEAKER_02 30:56

Sure. I don't I think uh aiming aiming less than that would not be helpful. Now, what's the outcome? That's it. That's the Lord of the harvest gets that. He gets that. But uh, but Jesus said pray, and he said go. Yep. And makes that so it feels like I mean, uh among the things we might do doing what Jesus said seems like a good list, you know.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

Amen. Amen. Well, even the way you said that earlier was I I think really profound. We're talking about this gap between identifying, which is just praying, and then inviting them in. And you made it very clear, and I buy this theologically, we don't know if they're gonna say yes to the invite, we don't know what they're gonna get when they come to our house, we don't know if they're gonna keep asking questions. It's just not our role, it's not our responsibility. But the mandate is go, pray, go, and make disciples, which to me is just inviting people into you following Jesus. Um as you look at Can I tell you one thing really quick?

SPEAKER_02 31:53

If you sit with people and you ask them, tell me about the most important people in your life, Wally, I told you about Baker. If you if you want to drill everything down to what one thing did those people do, they showed up. Amen. They showed up. And everybody listening right now can do that. Can do that, and all around you are people that would love for somebody to show up for them. Just show up. I'm a you know, I'm a spiritual father, like very intensely for a few people and and somewhat for a lot of people. And it's just a matter of showing up with my heart and their heart.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

That's all it is. Yep, yep. And I just again I can't thank you enough, which is why I'm like, I gotta have you on season one. Like, this is important to me as we wrap up Disciples Made Here to say there's a lot of little Andrews that need a spiritual father like Rick. And again, by God's grace, I have my dad Andy, I have Todd, I have you. Like, God is so good to me. And then I just want to be available to other people. And so if you could encourage our listeners right now with one thing, I think that that is the one thing. So maybe I'm saying the second thing then, because just showing up is it, just being fully present in proximity to the places that you live or can play. But how would you encourage us? Because man, if we're gonna storm the gates of hell, it means everyone listening today is actually gonna go be fully present where where God sent them.

SPEAKER_02 33:11

Yeah, so give us that one final word. I'm going to, but you gotta put it in the context of compassionate, courageous care. Like I'm being compassionate here, okay? Get over your get over yourself. That's good. You're you're not some meaningless person who can't make an impact in the world, nor are you God's gift of the world. You're just his kid. And so just be that. And and I say that it's easy for me to say it's 65, all right? Because I've failed enough, struggled enough. Um I've come to the place where, you know, like I tell people, I don't have my whole life ahead of me. I have most of my life behind me. But the days I have left matter more to me than they've ever mattered at any moment in my life. And so, some ways my days are better than they've ever been, even though they're fewer. And the thing I've learned in all of that is like I kind of need to get over myself. I'd I'd have all these reasons why, you know, I'm feral leader, I don't know this. These people had more, you know, they'd have this, that, that person's a better this, that. I would do that kind of really uh kind of negativity towards myself, which negates the voice of the father saying, This is my beloved son, I love you. Wow. And then but then I'd go the other way. You know, I'm like, well, you know, but on the other hand, I have done this, you know, I have been and and so people probably will listen to me. And then that it's it's just not about us, Drew. It's just not about me, it's not about you. And for the listeners, you don't you don't have to make any of this about yourself. You just make it about Jesus and loving people with his love. And whatever happens is his. It's his deal, it's his kingdom. He's really good at building his kingdom. I tell people all the time, like you, Drew, you're a wonderful man, you're a great human being, you're a terrible God, but just terrible. I mean, like you just you're you're you're a bad God, man. But some of everybody. Yeah. So just, you know, I've rehearsed trying to be God for 50 years. Just let it go. Just let it go. And enjoy the favor of your father, enjoy the the nearness of your savior, enjoy the the fruit of the spirit, and just make that accessible to people. And that's we we the phrase I like to use the least, you have the freedom to be faithful. You just be faithful. You have the freedom. You don't have to earn anything, prove anything, do anything. But my goodness, be faithful. Like just get in the game. Like, who who wants to to get to the end of it? And there's a I think it's Oliver Wendell Holmes. I think that's right. You can look it up if you're listening. Said most people die with their music still inside of them. Hmm. I'm not I don't want to die with the music still inside of me, Drew. It it comes out ugly, it skips a beat. It's but I'm telling you, it's the song of Jesus, and I don't want to die with that just just in me. I want to offer that to the world.

SPEAKER_01 36:04

I uh I I don't really want to say anything. I just want to like to encourage listeners to go backwards and replay those last four minutes again. Um it's fun. We're in the studio, you know. I'm in California and you're in Tennessee, and I I love when our our comms director kind of perks up as you're talking because he's like, that's for me. That that that's what I need to remember in my 30s, right? Um, stays in front of me, and like I'm like on the verge of tears. And I told you before we started this call, um, I just was with the family saying goodbye to their baby, essentially. And this was a family that is not a part of our church. Um, they were a new Prey Watch family because we were playing baseball against each other. Like that's how I met them. And just this reminder of like there are days that are in front of you right now, today, as you're driving and listening, um, as you're sitting in the studio listening, like there's a an invitation from the Father to be loved right now. Um, and then there's an invitation to not just receive that love, but to reflect it. And so, man, I knew this would be fun because every time I'm with you is fun and it's inspiring and it's heartbreaking and it's encouraging. But just thank you, brother. Like, thank you for not just being a pastor or a coach or a leader or a husband or a dad. I mean, spiritual father, thank you just for being a son yourself, um, for leading with a limp, for allowing me. And I share this because there's a lot of little Andrews out there that need Papa Rick. There's a lot of people, no matter how old you are. And so as we're praying and watching and saying, God, what's my next step? So I'm identifying and I'm inviting. I think sometimes the way you said that is again, you're either too full of yourself or you don't understand how full of the Holy Spirit you are. Like those are two different extremes. And I'm like, holy crap, Father, forgive me for any of them. Um, forgive me that I forgot who I was. I thought I was more than I was, and I actually forgot who you made me to be because I'm more than who I think I am here. And so I just want to say thanks, as we kind of we can't put a bow on it because every day is a new conversation, which is why we keep showing up on Mondays for Disciples Made Here, because Mondays matter. But thanks for showing up for me. Um, thanks for being faithful, imperfect. Um, again, I get to learn from your mistakes. Uh, I get to make less mistakes when you share with me yours. Um, so if you want more information about getting time with Rick and you're listening to us, can I just encourage you? Every pastor needs a pastor, every leader needs a coach. Um, Rick, you've been that for me. Go check out whitehorseli.org. Um, his heart is to give away his heart to other people so they get the heart of the father. And so you can download his White Horse app, go to the website, schedule a call with him. I'd encourage you to have more work with your organization if you're if you are a leader, leading leaders. Um, but remember, we're all just leading followers as we become sons. So, Rick, I just, man, I can't thank you enough. I know I get the privilege of talking to you in a couple of days, um, but other people can do that. Jump on the website. Um, as we transition here, we're gonna wrap up this episode. Um, I want to encourage you again, pick up that book. The workbook is designed to help you come to the heart of the father, not just receive, but how do we reflect it? And so this week, the challenge within the challenge is not just to identify and pray, but actually to invite. And so, Rick, thanks for making the invite to me. Um, may we make that invite to others so that they can see Jesus through us. Um, so such a gift. Um, thanks for inviting me, like I said, into your marriage and your ministry and your coaching. And my biggest thing is don't rob little Andrew of the joy, because all you listeners, you're like a Papa Rick or a Mama Teresa to someone else that's out there that needs to have someone to follow as you follow Jesus. So, disciples may hear this community is a gift to me. Hopefully, we're a gift to you. Thanks for walking the ways of Jesus with us everywhere that you live, work, and play. We love you guys. We'll see you next week.