Building Atlanta: Clyde Higgs on the Beltline, Equity, and What's Next

Clyde Higgs is President and CEO of Atlanta BeltLine Inc., leading one of the largest urban redevelopment projects in the country. In this episode, Tharon sits down with Clyde for a real conversation about the Beltline's wins, the criticism around equity and gentrification, the future of transit on the corridor, and what Atlanta's growth means for the people who call this city home.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:07

There are a few important jobs in Atlanta that connect to culture. But my next guest has one of the most important jobs in Atlanta when it comes to that connectivity. He's leading what is arguably the largest urban redevelopment project in the country. A $5 billion transformation that is reshaping neighborhoods, creating jobs, and redefining what Atlanta looks like for the next generation. He's the president and CEO of the Atlanta Beltline. So, Atlanta, let's welcome Clyde Higgs. Clyde, man, thank you so much for coming on Theron's Take. You know, we have been trying to get around the golf end for years now. Um, but the fact that you decided to take some time out of your busy schedule as the World Cup is going on to come on this show, man, I really appreciate it. Absolutely. When I think about Atlanta, and I think about a lot of different things. I think about the Olympics, I think about our rich history with the Atlanta civil rights movement, I think about Dr. King, I think about the world's busiest and most efficient airport. But the one thing that people continuously tell me when they come to Atlanta is that I gotta go to the Atlanta Belt line. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

And so before we get into the Atlanta Beltline, and I've had the honor and pleasure of watching you um really take the Atlanta Beltline to new heights because I have the privilege of serving on the Atlanta Partnership, um, Beltline Partnership Board with um with your counterpart. But before we get into the Atlanta Beltline, I want you to tell our listeners and viewers who is Clyde Higgs? I met you 11 years ago when you first came to the city. Yes. And you have just thrived, my brother. I just want people to learn about what you're doing and uh how you came to Atlanta.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Yeah, yeah. So so first of all, I moved here 11 years ago. You know, I moved here from Charlotte, North Carolina, where I was heading up a major redevelopment project just north of Charlotte, North Carolina, called the North Carolina Research Campus, and led that effort for for about nine years. Um, but at the very heart, I'm a I'm a son of a military man. My dad was career military. Uh, I was born in North Carolina, uh, moved to Madrid, Spain for for almost five years, then back to the United States. So I've been all across this country. Uh finished high school in Mississippi, uh, went to school in Alabama, grad school in North Carolina, and uh, but again, been in North or Atlanta for 11 plus years now, and love it. I originally joined the Belt Line, as you may remember, as the chief operating officer and uh and have been CEO going on eight years now.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

And time flies. I remember seeing you um when I was working in the city and you were the COO, and you were the person that really helped uh fulfill the mission, like getting things going. And for you to now have the role of CEO shows you that an organization like the Atlanta Beltline clearly promotes from within. So I don't want to make assumptions. I don't want people who watch this podcast, listen to this podcast, to assume that they actually know what the Atlanta Belt Line is. So tell our viewers and our listeners what is the Atlanta Beltline?

SPEAKER_00 3:07

Yeah, we get asked that question often, believe it or not. And because people are truly trying to understand it, they've heard of it, right? But like, what is it? And I would tell people technically, it is perhaps the most ambitious redevelopment project in the country. Uh rails to trails, future transit, affordable housing, it really is community building at its best and at the top of the scale. But spiritually, emotionally, it's where Atlanta comes together. I mean, if you think about the belt line, when you're out there on the corridor, I know that you and your family get out there, it's a place of joy for Atlanta. I walk out on the belt line almost every day. I'm out and I see joy on people's faces, and that's all we need it to be for people is a place of joy. Now, technically, it's all sorts of things from an infrastructure perspective. It's a place where people go to work, where they live, where they go to get groceries, where they get medical care, where it creates joy for them. But emotionally, spiritually, it's about where Atlanta comes together.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

So, Clyde, one of the things that um in doing research for this segment, you call the Atlanta Beltline the People's Project. And you just talked about how people enjoy the Beltline. Why do you call it the People's Project?

SPEAKER_00 4:27

Yeah, because if you think about the the Belt Line, it it was born from community, right? Just think about, you know, the genesis of Beltline with Ryan Grevelle, community. It really came from the people. And I think that that's the blessing of what we do. The people wanted the Belt Line project to happen. And I think that's why we enjoy lots of popularity because this wasn't a top-down project at all. It literally came from the people. And so that's why we call it our alias, the people's project at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Well, I've heard former mayor Shirley Franklin say that one of the original attempts of the Atlanta Belt Line, which I think started 25 years ago or so, was connecting neighborhoods. Yes. Are you feeling so do you feel that the Atlanta Belt Line is still connecting neighborhoods in the city of Atlanta?

SPEAKER_00 5:17

That that is our work at the end of the day. So when we've complete the entire Belt Line project, we will stitch together 45 distinct neighborhoods in the city of Atlanta. And that's special because you got to think about what infrastructure did decades ago, right? They actually split and divided communities. And so we have this new opportunity to what I like to say is remix infrastructure and pull communities back together.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

So one of the things that I remember when I first joined the Atlanta Beltline Partnership Board was a lot of work on the east side. When is the south side coming? And you and I know I lived in Buckhead, so the north side, people are like, well, when are we gonna get our north trail? But I remember vividly, you said in one of our board meetings, you said we are ahead of schedule. And the connectivity between the Atlanta Belt line is ahead of schedule and you're on budget. Absolutely. So take us through the east side, the south side, north side, sort of evolution of the belt line, and how is that going?

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Yeah. So so when people think about the belt line, think about it as kind of a loop, right? Or kind of a dial.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

How many miles is it?

SPEAKER_00 6:27

And so so literally on Friday, we will have almost 17 miles of the belt line completed out of 22. 22. And so we're making significant progress, we've accelerated, but you got to remember what happened about five years ago, Theron. I think when whoever writes the next book about the Atlanta belt line, you have to put this in here. But you remember what happened in March of 2021, and that was the passage of the special service district. Yes. That put us in such a strong financial place, Theron. That's why we're in the position we are right now when property owners decided to tax themselves. You remember this? This being a good thing. You hired me to help you with SSD. It's okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

One thing about Theron's Tech, you know, and and you you have Rachel Toledo and other people. You have to be transparent in this business. But no, you put together a dream team of consultants and people to take this to the council. But more importantly, you took it to the community first. So since you took it there, how did you get the community and the business owners to buy in? And then you had to go to the politicians to pass it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Purely the rallying call was simple. Do you want the beltline trail to be finished by 2030? Yeah, yes or no? And we heard a resounding, I can't say expletives on your show, but it was it was yes. And so we asked the community, okay, if you want this to happen, it's gonna require some type of financial infusion. And that's where property owners, community leaders came together and decided to tax themselves. Think about it, in the middle of the pandemic. I remember. In the middle of the pandemic, that helped to raise $100 million for Beltline. And then there was a cascade of effects. Remember? Then the Woodruff Foundation $80 million into the Beltline, the Cox Foundation, $30 million, the Blank Foundation, $22 million. And so that was probably one of the most important times in our history in putting kind of that syndication together to make sure that we got properly funded. Because again, we were behind from a financial perspective because of lawsuits, the recession. But that date is critical. And so, yes, we had the East Side Trail finished. We had a portion of the West Side Trail finished, but trying to play catch up and actually finish the entire 22-mile loop by 2030, you just couldn't break the laws of physics to make that happen unless you had a significant financial infusion. And that's what happened with the SSD.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

So you're going to deliver this before 2030.

SPEAKER_00 9:13

So you got to think about this, Theron. By time this airs, we will have finished the entire South Side Trail of the Beltline.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

Well, let me speak up for the folks on the South Side. Yeah. Even though I haven't lived over there in a while and they tease me. The South Side people want their completion of the beltline. So the fact that you're delivering on that, man, kudos to you, brother, because again, East got a lot. But for the South Side to actually have completion, man, that's a that's a monumental moment.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

We're excited about it. And probably early in my tenure, we've completed the first segment of the South Side Trail ahead of schedule, specifically with this mindset of giving communities kind of what they need. And we all know that that Pittsburgh deserves and wants economic vigor. And so bringing that app shout out to Pittsburgh. So right there at Metropolitan and University, we did the first mile there. And that's why you have Pittsburgh Yards there. It's bringing some vigor. So that was very intentional to make sure, again, we're giving the community what they need.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

So now we got to go to affordable housing.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

And the concern around gentrification from the inception of the belt line. This was a concern even before you took over as CEO. So can you say today that the Beltline is doing everything you can to make sure that the cost of living and affordability along the 22-mile trail is top of mind?

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Yeah, and I have to really give a shout out to Shirley Franklin and what I call the framers, the visionaries behind the belt line for even putting a goal behind housing affordability on the belt line. And not to get too preachy here, but other projects across the country that are rails to trails projects, they really didn't have affordability in their mindset. And my good friend Robbie Hammond, who is the founder of the Highline in New York City, and one of the things that he will tell you is that they missed in New York City is having an affordability goal around the Highline.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Oh, I was on that link trip.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

You remember?

SPEAKER_01 11:15

And I remember they said that in the link trip, and I didn't know the connection between you and Robbie because they were honest about it. Absolutely. But we didn't miss that in Atlanta.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

We did not miss that. 5,600 units of affordable housing by the end of 2030 is the goal. You know, I would say eight years ago, we were in a very difficult conversation about housing affordability along the belt line and within the city in Atlanta in general. But I will say today we are at 80% of our goal. We believe by the end of 2030, we'll beat our affordable housing goal by over 30%.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Well, the mayor is not going to let you um focus on a little affordable housing, right? This mayor is all about affordable housing.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

This is his love language for sure. Yes. His love language.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

So Clyde, some of the folks in Atlanta have called the Atlanta Belt Line the engine of gentrification. But I've heard you say that it's the engine of reinvestment. Which one is it?

SPEAKER_00 12:11

Of course, it's it's the latter, right? So I'll I'll tell you, and you even touched on this a little bit earlier when we talked about the neighborhood of Pittsburgh, right? And people asking, like, hey, we want our segment of belt line. And so when I hear people say it, and it's and it's interesting, you know, I I can smell the word, the question coming a mile away. So people will say, Oh, the belt line is great, Clyde, we love it, this, that. And then, but here comes the conjunction. But what what about gentrification? And you know, Theron, when we talk to people deep in the neighborhood, I'm talking about Legacy Atlanta, and they will tell you that we want the belt line, we want a grocery store, we want a medical facility, we want fresh groceries. And so when I hear that from certain people, it comes off as very disrespectful. Because if you're suggesting that that grandma or uncle Ted that's been in a community for for decades, don't deserve nice that that's what I hear, don't deserve nice things. I think that's one of the most disrespectful things that people can talk about. Now, I think the real conversation is displacement, right? And I think that's the word that we should talk about. How do you redevelop? How do you invest without displacement? That's the real question there. And I think we've become a lot more sophisticated in Atlanta with regards to projects like the Belt Line, like other redevelopment projects, investing without displacing. And even, you know, our not-for-profit entity has stood up a legacy resident retention fund. And so we literally will pay people's property taxes as new investment comes along and their property bills grow. We literally have a fund that supports that. So Bank of America, Woodruff, Google, uh, Georgia Power, they've all put money into this fund so that we can make sure that projects like the Belt Line and others, when they come to neighborhoods, that the people that have held those neighborhoods down for a long time, they can stay and thrive when those new investments come. So I really look at it as reinvestment, as investment into communities and people. And the real question that people should ask is how do you do that without displacement? That's that's the real word.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

So when I go to the belt line, one of the things I notice is that it's full. It's full. It's definitely full. But also I think about what a lot of people think about. And that is that while I'm having fun, walking my dog, going on the run, going to my restaurant, um, riding my scooter or my skateboard, am I safe?

SPEAKER_00 14:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 14:55

What have you been able to do to increase public safety on the belt line?

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Yeah, I will say that that's something that's always on our mind when it comes to the belt line and any infrastructure project, it should be all about safety first, right? All the fun and everything else you can think about for belt line is secondary to safety and security. And so a feature that you'll see on the belt line. So every 90 feet on the belt line trail, you have lights and you have cameras. And if you listen to Chief Sheerbaum and the good folks at Atlanta Police Department, they will tell you that the belt line is the safest place in the city.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

The safest place in the city.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

The safest place in the city. And so we take that seriously. Now, ultimately, safety and security is the responsibility of APD. So Beltline Inc., you know, we don't have a safety force per se. It is the purview of APD. But if you look at the the numbers, APD will tell you that it is a very safe place on the Atlanta Belt line. We actually have a dedicated police force called uh the Path Force. So these are the the women and men that ride on bicycles. You'll see them uh in their uniforms, riding bikes across the belt line, and that's literally their job is to police the Atlanta Beltline. Uh, we also have something that we have stood up called the Atlanta Beltline Ambassadors Force. Now, this is kind of a community ambassadors group. Uh, you'll see them in khaki shorts and green shirts, and so they'll give you directions, they'll give you information about belt line, but also if they see something unfortunate happening, they'll have direct line into APD to report whatever is happening.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Cloud, you've been very intentional about bringing new business to the belt line. I know you got a new market and all the different things that you've brought uh to the Atlanta Belt line. Talk to us about the economic development opportunities that you've been giving people to be not just having a brick and mortal sort of place on the belt line, but for them to take their startups and grow their businesses by communicating with folks on the belt line.

SPEAKER_00 17:02

Yeah. So that that that is one of the unsung powers of the belt line is that economic development impact piece. So when the board first hired me, again, almost eight years ago, that was the piece that they really wanted to stand up. And so I'll I'll give you a quick figure. Uh we've put uh about $900 million into the belt line, developing it to to date. So $900 million, that's a big number, right? Big number. But what we've seen, Theron, is over $14.5 billion of private investment that's followed the belt line. So that's a 15 to 1 return on public investment. I've been in the economic development space for for over 20 years. To see a 15 to one return on public investment is almost unheard of. You're doing good if you get a two to one return on investment.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

In this climate, yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

In this climate, and and so so think about that. And if you think about the multiplier effect, that number is $23 billion. You just you don't see numbers out there like that. And then also it's supporting over 90,000 jobs because of the Atlanta Belt line. Wow. So so think about it. This is so people think about it as this this nice amenity where you smile, you walk your dog, you walk with your family. Sure, it's that too. But I will tell you, it is perhaps the most important economic development juggernaut that we have in the southeast right now. You just don't see those types of returns. And it's a mixture of companies, right? You got high-flying companies like BlackRock, but then you also have a small company like the James Room on the belt line. Yes, we love the James Room. We got uh like and everything in between. You got tech companies there. You got OneTrust, which is a unicorn that's doing a lot of daily data safety work. They're headquartered right on the belt line. Uh, you got MailChimp. They have their headquarters right on the belt line, 3,000 employees, and a third of their employee base actually uses the belt line to get back and forth to work. And so I think I saw the the the I think the take you had with John Birdsong and is Atlanta full. No, Atlanta is densifying, and and that's what we want companies to do, just like MailChimp. A third of their employees uses the belt line to get back and forth to work. That's almost 900 cars that are not on the road because they're using they're using the belt line. So so from an economic development impact, I don't know that there's a whole lot of projects out there that's bringing that type of return back to to their city.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

So you agree with John Burris song that Atlanta is not full and that the belt line is not full.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

The belt line is not full, but I'm gonna tell so Darren, what do you mean by full? What's your definition of full?

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Let me say this, man. When I am trying to get to the airport on a Saturday at 2 o'clock, if I'm trying to go to a brunch spot either before or after church, and I'm stuck in 30 plus minutes, 50 minutes of traffic, and it seems like everyone is using Waze and everyone's using their Google Maps and the expressway. You can't get off like I just think that we have so many people that are, and we can't just all be out at the same time. So that's what I mean. Now, I can I can be debated and say that's not true, but I would love to hear your point of view.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

No, so I I would say that that Atlanta uh is And I do think we need to expand Marta.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

I we as a person who represents Marta and takes Marta, I need to take it more. But if we expand transit and if we become less car dependent, I think we can do it. But I would love to hear your view. We have to figure that out.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

And so I will tell you that from my vantage point, Atlanta is perhaps one of the most consequential cities in the United States right now. It it is a place where lots of people want to be. We got the world's busiest airport, right? We got the Beltline, we have I don't know how many higher education institutions, we have the AUC, we have Georgia State, we have Georgia Tech, we have Emory, and uh it is just a great place to be. And so when you when you think about Atlanta, um our culture is winning. And and people want that. So if you think about a lot of these corporate relocations and expansion, get guess why they're coming to Atlanta. It's it's because of our culture. And so when we start thinking about that, I think so. The ability to to bring more people into Atlanta, I think we're still we're still open for business.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

What was interesting is that it was a confluence of people agreeing with me on the comments when I said Atlanta was full, and then some people disagreeing. You did a very good job of making your case that we are not completely full, there's still opportunity to grow. So Claude. I I, you know, I gotta make sure that our viewers and listeners, which is um a viewership of people who want me to make sure that I address tough questions and concerns with our guests. I talked about how the original intent of the Atlanta Belt Line was to make sure we connect neighborhoods. But also one of the original intents of the belt line was to eventually develop some type of rail on the belt line. How's that conversation going? Will we see rail? I know our mayor has said that he wants some type of rail on the belt line eventually. You've been put in some tough situations where you've been very transparent with people about the progress that we've made. I know you've done some studies recently, uh looked at it, you've listened to a lot of people. So where are we with potential rail on the belt line?

SPEAKER_00 22:47

Yeah, and so that that's a good question. So as we think about, again, the 20-year anniversary for for Beltline, and I'm reminded about all of our different stakeholder stakeholders for for the belt line, it it is still very much our intent for for transit along the the belt line. And so and what I mean by that is I I don't want people to get into a binary argument where it's one versus another. Infill stations are absolutely important. I would say autonomous vehicles like Waymo are absolutely important. BRT is absolutely important, heavy rail is absolutely important. So my answer to you is that it's all of the above. Like it, you you just can't pick one modality over another. So light rail is important, autonomous is important, in field stations. It's it's like uh affordable housing. If you think that just producing a new affordable unit is a solution, you're you're missing the point. Yet that's a part of the solution, but it's also how do you keep people who are already in homes in their houses? And so it's it's a really complex challenge there. But my piece is that all of it is important, including light rail.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

Clyde, as always, man, I appreciate your honesty and your transparency. And I know that's a question that you get a lot, but I really appreciate you coming on fair and taking, answering that question as in its totality, because I think the people in Atlanta, we all want to thrive and grow together. And we just gotta be patient. But just know that there are a lot of women and men working together to make sure that we fulfill the intent of the um the belt line. Clyde, if the Atlanta Belt Line fulfills its promise to the people, what does that look like for you? What are the milestones that you want to be remembered?

SPEAKER_00 24:44

Yeah, so so first of all, that it was very inclusive. I wanted to feel like it is Atlanta at the end of the day. And so when we start thinking about milestones, we got to think about 2030. And that's the delivery of 22 miles of trail, 5,600 units of affordable housing, uh, over 25,000 jobs created for Atlantans, and then obviously the the economic development impact of having over $30 billion of economic impact is where we want to be. And I think we're on the way to making that happen.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

So, Clyde, can you let you get out of here without asking you one more question? Um, what are the milestones? What can we actually find more information about the Atlanta Beltline? And what are you doing doing with FIFA? Right now we're in the throes of it. How can people get more involved with the Belt Line and FIFA World Cup?

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Theron, we we are so excited. So when this airs, we'll have 17 miles of Beltline completed ahead of World Cup. We'll have food trucks, all sorts of community gatherings. But you can find a lot about us at beltline.org.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Clyde, now we're gonna go into final take. And I'm gonna ask you a couple questions. So, number one, describe Atlanta in one word. Community. Punt City Market or Crog Street?

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Both.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

Favorite restaurant in Atlanta right now? All of the above. The one spot on the trail everyone needs to visit.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

It's not on the trail, but my favorite place of happiness and joy is Rocksteady.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Did you drive that ball 300 yards from the forward T's or the back tees? Um ask the witnesses. Well, Clyde, thank you, man, so much for coming on today. And we really appreciate you taking time out to talk to us about the Atlanta Belt Line. If people wanted to find out more information about the Atlanta Belt Line and all your milestones and projects that you're working on, where would they go?

SPEAKER_00 26:43

So, so many things to learn about the belt line. You know, again, we have the world's largest arboretum on the belt line. Go check out beltline.org. You can find everything that you need to know about what we like to describe as, again, the People's Project.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

Well, keep up the good work, man, and thank you again so much for coming on Therrence Take.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you for watching and listening to Therrence Take. Please follow us on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, and TikTok. And wherever you get your podcast, please download Therrence Take. Share with a friend and drop a rating.