EP16: Kenzie St George Social Worker, Overcoming Domestic Violence

How Domestic Violence Affects Children: Resilience, Cycles of Violence, and Empowerment

On the Irene Podcast, licensed clinical social worker and certified Utah DV provider Kenzie Bradshaw Betancur discusses domestic violence as an ongoing “atmosphere” that affects families and children, drawing on her experience at a Children’s Justice Center and her current work with both survivors and people who have used violence in court-involved treatment. She shares statistics from the Office of Women’s Health (one in six children witness physical assault of a parent or important adult; boys who see their mother abused are 10 times more likely to abuse female partners) and references the ACE study linking higher scores to smoking, alcoholism, and drug use, while noting resilience improves when a child has at least one supportive adult. The conversation emphasizes education as empowerment, accountability without excusing harm, barriers to leaving (safety, finances, childcare, isolation), and using the Irene app to recognize abuse and reframe communication. The host shares her own abuse, divorce, forgiveness/acceptance, spirituality, and the role of support systems and self-worth in healing.

00:00 Welcome and Guest Intro
00:27 Kenzie Background and CJC Work
01:59 Adoption Story and Inspiration
03:08 From Advocacy to Therapy Roles
04:44 Working With Those Using Violence
07:41 Empowerment and Tools Like Irene
11:28 DV as an Atmosphere and Training
12:56 Key Stats and ACE Resilience
17:10 Why Leaving Is So Dangerous
20:50 Men and Stigma in DV
24:32 Irene for Awareness and Change
27:46 Tactics vs Dynamics and Root Causes
29:37 Victim Roles and Patterns
30:07 Love Bombing and Breadcrumbs
30:49 Breaking Point and Clean Exit
33:15 Forgiveness as Freedom
36:32 Acceptance and Taking Power
39:45 Building Resilience with Support
42:41 Resources and Self Empowerment
48:46 Silencing Doubt with Truths
53:49 Reclaiming Worth and Faith
59:07 Healthy Conflict vs Abuse
01:00:41 Next Life Chapter and Closing

Kenzie Bradshaw Betancur

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome back to the Irene Podcast. Today we have with us Kenzie Bradshaw Bettenker, and she's gonna talk to us a little bit about how DV affects children and in the home and stuff like that, right? I'll let you just take it away from here because I wanted you to talk about what you wanted to talk about, so let's go.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Yeah. So I'm I'm a licensed clinical social worker here in town. I have worked, I'm a certified DV provider here in the state of Utah, and I've been doing mental health. And for the past, I don't know, I graduated with my master's in 2023, but you start doing therapy before that. Anyways, and I guess I haven't really told you guys about this, but my what led into this, and I'll are a couple of things. But one of the first things is I was a victim advocate at the Children's Justice Center. I don't know if you know what that is.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Is it where like kids who have been in abuse have their own attorneys and stuff and they're go through the court system?

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Not not exactly, but it is they do have like attorneys at work within their multidisciplinary team. Okay. But it is a center that helps facilitate the process of like investigation for child abuse. Okay. And for so like DCFS kind of stuff. DCFS will come into the building, but they can have like interviews there, forensic interviews. They a lot of it's for ch victims of sexual abuse. And uh there's some that come in with that are children in home of domestic violence. And so that's when I really got introduced to the criminal justice system of of all of this, and then the supporting victims, and I was more more like a case manager at that point, but yeah, that was one of the things that kind of pushed me into the field of become a social worker because I'm doing half the work anyways already. It's not and then I also was really interested in this work due to personal family friends and a family member, my sister, who has experienced a rough start in her life, and uh I was inspired to to make a change.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

And she was adopted by your parents. Yes. How old was she when they adopted her?

SPEAKER_00 2:18

So I was 14 years old and she was 12. Okay. So she was already a teenager, and she's from originally from Guatemala.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Um and I was the only girl with three boys in the family household. So and I begged and begged my parents for a sister. And so that's kind of where we the it's a long story, but she kind of came into our home and we realized she needs more than just like a place to stay, and it turned into an adoption story, and it's been a really beautiful adoption story, and we're best buds. So that's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

You got your sister. Yes, I have my sister. So then tell us how that led you, excuse me, how that led you to exploring the the the work that you do now. Yeah. Like getting into that.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

Yeah. So I started out with victim advocacy, and and then I my official title at first was mental health services coordinator. So I was referring people out to therapists that were qualified, trauma informed. And then I was like, why am I not just a therapist? Why am I referring people out? And so really through her adoption is when the first time my family was exposed to like social work. And I was like, that's you get interviewed in like a home study, and I instead of being interviewed, I interviewed a social worker. And so then from there, I kind of was just inspired by social work and specifically working with victims and survivors of abuse. And from there, I there's a so I currently work at two different practices, one in SNS counseling as a general mental health therapist, where I focus on trauma, and then one at at Premier Counseling, where I'm a clinician who works with court-involved or justice-involved populations, so court-mandated clients, and then substance use as well. And so I think there's a really big crossover between that and DV as well.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

Substance abuse and D V?

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

And then the a lot of the court-mandated treatment that we do is for domestic violence services.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

And so, like the people who were the offenders.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

Okay. And I'm I may actually kind of shift that to the people who have used violence. Okay. That's fine.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

I understand, I don't know all the language.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

You're totally fine. But the reason why I say that is because they're the people who have used violence, it's normally not their first time being exposed to violence. So I was really worried as this job offer kind of came to me and they like said they wanted to have me work over there with them. And I said, I've really only worked the victim side of this. And I was really worried that my lens that I'd created around social work was very victim-based. And when I came into the work, it was very much that these people who have who I mean, you've heard the phrase hurt people, hurt people, right? And healed people, heal people. And so the hurt people were hurting other people in different senses. And so to be able to heal that was I found that actually very rewarding. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

Yeah, because you're helping somebody who sometimes doesn't even know any better, because that's how they were raised, and that's all they know how to handle a situation is to scream, to fight, to yell, to whatever it is, you know, and a lot of times in their home there was substance abuse too. So that's because we all we all look at it from our perspective, but I think that when you can kind of try and see it from a different perspective is where you can really truly understand, like, because it's okay to be empathetic towards somebody who's been abusive to you because it's not anywhere anybody really wants to be. And not even to you, but to you know, to just kind of look at it like, oh wow, they were raised in this awful, terrible situation. That's all they know.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:25

And they're doing it not always necessarily to to be like that, but that's all they know.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

Yeah. And I think where the intersection comes with too is we're both in a space to prevent violence and to stop it and then to heal from it, right? And it's part of it is taking accountability and part of the work is we don't we don't necessarily allow things to be an excuse or to excuse actions, right? But to take responsibility for those and then continue moving forward and in healing and and correcting the actions to make because we they're no longer a victim of their their situation.

SPEAKER_02 7:09

And the more you know, the better you can do. Yeah. And so if you can learn new skills and how to cope with certain situations or scenarios, then you can do better in the future. Yeah. And we all have to learn that though, because we're not no one's perfect. Like there's still things that I do that I know that I want to correct.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:27

And I've made a lot of corrections in my life of of how I used to handle things to how I handle things now. And so I think that we're all a work in progress. Some just have bigger things to work on than others, but everybody has their own stuff.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Yeah. And we so we also do a lot of work with people who are survivors of violence and that come in, and sometimes it's court mandated, or sometimes it's DCFS involved families, or people who just need someone who's certified in this treatment. And when we when we work with them, oftentimes it's because they're in a cycle of violence that I guess we don't have to get into the cycle, I guess, but and they're in that cycle and they're really struggling with getting out of it. And part of getting out of violence or a relationship like that is truly comes by empowering the individual, giving them resources, but we can't do the work for them. Right. And so that's why we truly have to find ways to empower.

SPEAKER_02 8:31

Inspire.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

And inspire, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

Yeah, because they have to want to, because it doesn't matter how many amazing tools you have and that you give them, if they just sit there on the counter, there's that's not doing any good, right? They have to open the toolbox and use the tools. Yeah. So if they're not using those tools, they're they're only as good as they're willing to use them, right? So that's kind of like why we created Irene, because she's another tool, I think, that people can use. And on both sides of that scenario, like we were kind of messing around with it the other day, and we put in some messages that were like, Oh, this is what I want to send, and it was a truly awful message. And she's like, Hey, that's kind of a lot. Let's maybe break it down. Here's this is what yeah, this is what it sounds like. This is like your words. I know you're you're upset or you're angry or you're hurt, and this is how it's coming out, but let's change how it's delivered. You can still get the same message across without being abusive. And she kind of like walked you through how to change your message so it sounded better. So she can teach you how to like reframe. Like, I'm frustrated, and this is how I know how to say it.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:35

And she can teach you how to say it better, which I think is really cool.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

Yeah, which we that's what we try to teach so often is hey, what what is coming up for you when you say that? It what is the problem instead of what is the emotion? Like, let's let's look at, let's take out the the emotional side of this and let's really try to make sure that we're responding or reflecting on how a phrase would come across versus the emotion coming across.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

Yeah, and but and sometimes I think when you're really wrapped up in the emotional part of it, because that's how like everything that you learned was from an emotional standpoint, like everything that you got what got as a kid, maybe growing up, was very emotionally charged. And so it's hard to separate that, I think, sometimes for some people to separate the emotion from how you're like actually feeling, and that's where I think Irene can come in because she's not emotional, she's very kind loving and she's very kind, loving and caring, but she she knows how to kind of like in a gentle way guide you back to like so. Let's let's say it like this. How does that sound to you? Does that sound like that's gonna deliver the message? Because we don't have to be aggressive to deliver a message, and I think you know, sometimes growing up again, that's maybe what they learned is to you have to be aggressive to get your point across, but we don't always have to be aggressive. There's always a kinder way to say it. Always, always. Yeah. So you said that you had some statistics that you wanted to share with us. I'd love to hear those because I want to learn more about the violence that's in the home and how it affects the family and the children and everyone involved. Because like you said earlier, it's not like violence happens once. It's it's uh what did you say, what did you call it?

SPEAKER_00 11:23

That it's not their first time being exposed to violence.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

Yeah, but you said it's a what did it be? Oh, it's an atmosphere.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

It's an atmosphere, that's the word. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

So it's not just one instance that happened that was violent, it's usually an atmosphere of violence in the home.

SPEAKER_00 11:37

Yeah, it's so uh when working, the individuals that we have worked with, and I have seen many people who work in this field or work as clinicians with someone who's experiencing domestic violence. And I think it's so important to get cultural competency or just competency training to work in this field because there's so many things that are at risk if we do it the wrong way, or and and so part of the people that we work with are people that are stuck in that cycle, and because they're stuck in that cycle and they think I I can take this on or I'm strong enough, which women are strong, and anybody who experiences violence is strong. But taking on those things will start to impact people in the home and children in the home. So one of the reasons why I have brought up some of these statistics is education is empowerment. Right. To learn what is happening, and to part of that education is empowerment, is they have a full understanding of what is really happening, what may be some of the the later effects of continuing in this.

SPEAKER_02 12:51

Down the road, what what could it be if I continue down this road of abuse?

SPEAKER_00 12:56

So a lot of these, I just quoting my sources, the Office of Women's Health, but so I'll just kind of spitball and we can maybe talk about some of them. But one in six children have witnessed seeing a parent or an important adult in their home being physically assaulted in their home. So the first thing that that statistic tells me is this is not unfortunately a lonely pathway. It's not rare. Yeah, it is not a rare thing. And one in six, I mean, here in Utah, every other household has six six children. And so one in six children experiencing that. That's that's a lot of kiddos. Yeah. And are and so if this has happened to you, there's there's no place to blame. Right. There's we're not putting blame on the the survivor for having this happen in the home. And and later on, I there's I prepared some things that we'll talk about resilience and what that can look like within the home. But yeah, that's another one is boys who see their mother abused are ten times more likely to abuse their female partners as adults. Like we kind of mentioned earlier, people who have used violence, it's normally not their first time being exposed to it. And so that's part of the cycle of violence that that when when exposed, they sometimes they don't know any better. This is what I saw.

SPEAKER_02 14:35

This is what was modeled to me growing up by my parents. Because like, I don't think we realize sometimes I now that I'm a parent and I have adult children, I realize like my experiences from my child shaped so much about my adult life, even though it was like the first 18 years of my life, and I've lived outside my home for 40 years, it's still like it's still it still impacts my life because those are the formative years that we're just soaking so much in. Yeah. But we can always change. Yes, it's not that forever. There's there's things we can always change, which I think is beautiful to always remember. Like, yes, I mean, again, like we were talking about earlier, it's not an excuse for you to act that way, but it helps us understand maybe why you made those decisions. That's too better now.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

Yeah. And I can't remember the exact statistic on this, but so uh have you heard of the ACE study?

unknown 15:28

No.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Adverse childhood experience study?

SPEAKER_01 15:30

No.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

It was done by Kaiser Permanente out in California. Uh, and it has it, it's a series of like 10 questions of question a questionnaire that it's either yes or no, but it's essentially asking different forms of adverse childhood experiences. And it was if you scored, if you answered yes to four or more of the questions, you are I think I wrote this down somewhere actually. I can't remember. Oh a score of four or higher were very heavily linked to rates of smoking, alcoholism, and drug use as well. So, and within those four or the ten questions, many of them surround domestic violence as well. So within that same study, they have found though that if a child had, or studies that followed after that, but around the ACE studies, that if a child has at least one supportive adult in their life, that those if you ha even have a ACE score of four or higher, your resilience is you have like an 80% chance or better to improve that to combat that statistic. Yes. There you go. And I think it's huge that if that supportive parent is the mom in the home or the dad in the home, that the person that is also experiencing violence, if they can somehow be the support as well, if it's if they're not able to leave the cycle, yeah, then that is one huge part of it is if you can also be the supportive adult.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

Yeah. Yeah, and that's why it's so important to never give up on yourself too, I think. Because sometimes when you're just in your darkest days in abuse, it's just it feels so heavy. And leaving feels impossible, and change like living on your own might feel impossible. Like there's just so many things that feel so heavy for you. I just I think it's so important to remember that nothing is final and you can always make a change, and there's a lot of resources out there for people to get out of those situations, but being that supportive parent gets easier sometimes when you do leave. I'm not advocating for divorce, obviously, but I'm advocating for taking care of yourself and your children as best you can. And if you're with a partner that doesn't want to change, then that might be the best solution is to get out of that situation.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

Right. And I think that that that's an easy thing for outsiders to see. Yes. Right? It's so easy to say it's so hard to see me to get out.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Like anybody though can s can just sit there and think. Like just think in your head that you have to leave somebody who uh has a history of abusing you physically, right? Think about how scary that must be when you're in that situation to know that even just leaving could escalate that violence towards you if they find you, if they know where you went, if they because it's it's sometimes it's about so much control that they just can't fathom you leaving them. So like nothing's off the table. So it is very scary, and I think it's important for people to remember like how very extremely truly difficult it is to leave that situation, and how how scary, like scary it is. Well, we I didn't even have kids when I was in mine, and when I left, I was scared. I ran away and hid because I was afraid of what would happen to my family if I went home. So I didn't even go home because I there were still little kids at my parents' house, and so I didn't even go home. I went and stayed somewhere else.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Because I was scared.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:09

But I knew that that person would protect me, and so I stayed there.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

But I was scared for like and rightfully so, I would assume. And statistically, the first year after leaving an abusive relationship is the most dangerous. We that's that's a st that's statistics, like, and it so to be someone that sees that from the outside, like obviously I can say you're this is such a bad relationship for you. Why don't you just leave? That's why. And it's way more complex. We attended a conference yesterday and they talked about how DV is a complex issue. It's not simple, it's a complex issue. No, and we have to start to step away from that viewpoint to from that opinion that it's just it's easy. Why don't you just leave? And and if we want to create space that victims are able to leave a situation, we also need to create spaces on how that can become safer, how we can empower that, how we what resources do are they lacking to be able to leave? If it's financial, if it's childcare, if it's how am I going to support these kids by myself, if it's especially if you've been a stay-at-home mother for who knows how many years, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:32

And now you're you're facing going back to work, taking care of your kids, and making sure everybody's safe. Like that's a that's a big burden.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:39

But it's possible. It's possible. There are some amazing resources out there for for women to have that men and women have access to to be able to leave those situations. Because I think a lot of times when we talk about this, people think of women, but men are we know some men that have been in abusive relationships, and it's just as bad for them. They they deal with it, I think, a little bit differently than women do. Like we're more like in our head about it, maybe, and men are more like maybe sometimes even in denial, but it's harder, I think, for men to talk about it because culturally it's like man up and deal with it, you know? Which I think is good.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Right. Well, I've learned so many statistics out there. I've had these just floating in my brain my whole like career. So I'm sorry if I split same plus of these.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

Yeah, it definitely is.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

I mean, working I explained how I first started to build my lens with in the child abuse realm and prevent child abuse Utah is a really good resource for those who are in Utah. But to they did they they involved people and have these panels of people who uh of men who experienced child abuse as a as a child. And they have learned and there was a study done that it takes twenty years for men to come forward about abuse. And so it it isn't just women. And is the statistics skewed towards women who are yes. Right. Not and because women are more often more often for sure. But if we can remove that stigma as well that these people who have used violence to be able to come forward about these issues that they've experienced and create a space that is comfortable to be vulnerable in, that's prevention as well. Learning how to make space for that.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

Yeah. Or even like even men who married somebody who was a narcissist because there's narcissistic women just like there's narcissistic men. I just feel like we hear more about it on the other side, like women being abused, because men are usually bigger and stronger than women. Like genetically, that's just how we were made. But I also think we want to always make sure that men know that what we have, like this Irene app that we created and the healing that we encourage, and the you know, all the podcasts that we do to like give stories of inspiration, that applies to everybody. It doesn't just apply to women. Like I know that we're women running this, but we know the statistics for men, and we we we're working on creating space for men to be able to have access to things that make them feel supported, and like they have a place where they can talk about what has happened to them and heal from that as well. Just because I think it's I almost feel like it's there's more resources and like support groups for women out there than there are for men. And I want to, I we want to kind of change that because we want men to have more access to these things. Because I think if we can make it less taboo and open up a way for men to talk to each other about what has happened to them so that they can heal as well and they can grow and they can find that person that lights their fire that's like meant for them and they're you know that truly loves them and they truly love and they're healed and they're in this place where they're ready to like be loved again, just like women. Like, I think that it's so important. I think that we need to, like you said, remove that that stigma from it and and put it out there and say it's okay, talk about it. Because I think that that's where we can truly make the change is talking about it.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

Yeah, and I think too, if even the people who have used violence, like Irene coming in handy to a lot of times the violence that they've used, and there's different kinds of violence, but sometimes it's they're unaware that it they're causing violence. Yeah, right? And different forms of violence. But Irene will help re take that and help you recognize it, yeah. And say like, hey, and that's even like can be an aha moment, like oh I'm capable of doing this, or how did I how did this part how did this part of me start to exist? Yeah, what did I hear? Uh-huh. And so when we when we empower survivors, we also create a space for those who have used violence to to end that kind of cycle as well.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

Because they can be made aware, because like we've talked about maybe they maybe they don't realize how bad it is, maybe they don't realize really what they're doing to their partner, because I don't know. There's a part of me that believes that there's good in everybody, and I can't imagine somebody would go into a relationship, invest so much time, effort, and energy just to be abusive, just to have control, just to right. Maybe there are people out there like that, but I feel like there's good in everybody, and if they truly want to change, that's why we have Irene. Because from the comfort of your own home, totally anonymously anonymously, you can find out what's happening to you. You can pull it up on your phone, on your computer, whatever, and just type in things that are going on, and she can help you identify maybe some of that abuse that's been happening to you. That you're like, I feel crazy, what's going on? Right. You know, I thought they loved me, I thought this was this, I thought this was, you know, like I thought this was love. I thought that we had this relationship based on love and that we cared for each other, but I'm not feeling that, and I don't know what I'm feeling, I just know it doesn't feel right.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

Yeah. And in that conference, there was something that was so awesome that, and I may misquote a little bit. That's what I was looking at my iPads, see if I could pull up that. But essentially when when when when people feel crazy or they're experiencing violence or abuse in the home, and they start to have the the effects effects of it, uh, less emotional regulation, the inability to communicate with other people, coming this coming out within other relationships. The if we can look at and destigmatize, like I so often I think we tell kids, oh, if you're being bullied, like there's they're probably being not don't have a great home. Yeah. Right? And we start to find reasonings for why people are acting the way that we do. When we find that reason for why a victim may be acting the way they they do, if we we say, well, the this violence is causing this victim or survivor to act this way, that also tells us the person who has been using violence why why they're using it the way that they are. When we start to look at the difference between tactics and dynamics, that yelling is creating intimidation. The tactic is yelling, and the dynamic that it is creating is intimidation or whatever other tactic or dynamic that they're trying. So when we start to look at that, why do they need to be intimidation, intimidating? What have they experienced that has created fear in them? Yeah, yeah, thus creating fear in other family members. Yeah. And so when we look at it that way, we can also inform how to create a space for for that vulnerability to come to light. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

Yeah. Because education is empowerment, but also like say this person is like, okay, they were yelled at and intimidated as a child, and now they grew up and they're doing that because that's what they know. This is what a parent does to a child, that's all they know, because that's what was modeled to them. So now we need to teach them, look, just because this happened, that's not, that's not an that relationship. Remember, it's a huge part of it. Yeah, and that relationship is going to suffer if this continues. Because did you like being treated like that? No, but that's all you knew, so that's what you're doing. Not because you're trying to be that same person, but because that's all you know sometimes. And again, I'm not giving anybody a free pass.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

It's knowledge, it's understanding of what like why someone does what they do. And I think once we understand why, it's easier for us to help them address it and and to get better.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

Yeah. And coming back to the survivor side of it, why someone may stay within a relationship, I think we can find the answers of that's all they knew growing up as well. Seeing their family members being victimized within the home, and that's my role. Yeah. That's how you create a loving household is you don't stand up for yourself or you don't just go along to try and keep the peace.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

And so when we look at it that way too, we're able to see that whatever has informed a a victim as well, may create their future victimization. If they were victimizing the the earlier on, too.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

And sometimes too, like you grew up in a beautiful, healthy home, and you don't know what any of this looks like. And then you go into a relationship, and at first it's like, oh my gosh, he loves me. He's so good to me, he's this, he's that. And then all of a sudden you're like, what's happening? How did I get here? This isn't okay. Like for me, it took physical violence before I realized that it wasn't okay. There was a lot of emotional and psychological abuse that I just like thought that I was trying to have to figure out how to navigate, and that's just how it was. I wasn't raised in a home like that, but for whatever reason, in my brain, I was like, maybe it's the fix it, like I could I can fix this kind of part of my brain, because I'm such a like problem solver, like by nature. Maybe it's that. I'm not exactly sure, but I know that it got to a point where I was like, I'm not happy, and this isn't okay. I shouldn't be treated like this. But for me, the bottom line was when I got when he physically put his hands on me and threw me on the ground, and I was like, I snapped out of it, and I was fortunate enough not to have children, and I could make a clean break, but it was still hard and scary. It was so hard and scary. But and and there's like there's this psychology, and we kind of talked about it with um Dr. Bum, but there's this connection that's made using good feelings, but actually in a manipulative way. So you they're manipulating your feelings because you get those feel-goods every once in a while. They give you those little feel-goods so that you stay attached. And so that's what people don't understand about your brain when you stay in those relations. Like, why did you say why'd you stay? Because in my head, I got enough breadcrumbs. Let's put the cycle of the bread crumbing. Like I got enough breadcrumbs to stay. Yeah, because I got enough of those little good feeling hits, like it would be really bad, but then he would make it better, you know. He would give me flowers, or he would say he was sorry, but the actions never changed. It was all just words and and that, but it but it it streams you along, and you don't understand it all the time, especially I was 19 when I got married, so I was a baby still. And like, according to me, I guess, but like I once you for me, I feel like I was raised in a home with a very loving mother and father, and it wasn't perfect, and they were very strict, and so like I kind of pulled away because I wanted to have freedom. But then when I got in this relationship, like it was love-balming for sure at first, and it just made me feel good. Not that I was lacking love from a father, so I wasn't like looking for that, you know. I didn't have daddy issues like that, but for whatever reason, I just thought, like, oh, well, he loves me because he's doing all these wonderful nice things for me and buying me flowers, and you know, I just kind of went like went with it. And my mom's like, don't get married, and I was like, I'm getting married. And I'm grateful for that experience. It sucked, it was terrible, and I wish that like I could have learned another way, but the huge lessons that I've learned from it have made me so strong and resilient in my life. So by the time I was 21, I had been married and divorced, and my mom helped me by saying you need to forgive him, and I was like, Why do I need to forgive him? He's not worth worthy of forgiveness. And she said, No, you need to forgive him for you. You're if you're mad at him, he's never gonna know because you're not gonna see him again. You're gonna hold on to this anger and resentment, and it's just gonna eat you alive. You have to forgive him. And the day that I forgave him, my life changed. I saw things in a different way. And I just recently read a quote or read something that said that when you don't forgive somebody, you're telling God you don't trust him to take care of it. When you forgive them, you're giving it to God and letting him handle it the way that it needs to be handled. And I believe in God, and I know he's got my back in everything I do. And so when I was able to forgive, and I can free my heart from that, I actually feel bad for him now. I feel bad for the things that he's done in his life that he feels like he needs to continue doing to be this person. And yes, he hurt me, but I'm good. I've that I've come so far in my life, and I look at like even the work I'm doing now, I could never have done if I didn't have that experience. So I'm not saying that, like, yes, I got abused, but I'm saying I was abused, but I use that to catapult me into my the life that I've always dreamed of. And I've I've been married for 25, almost 26 years, and I have three beautiful children. And all of that is because of the experiences in my life. And so, yes, I have empathy for people who are abusive because I know they're hurting in some way and they just don't know better. Most of them. I think there's some people that could be really awful people because they choose to be, but I think most people just need to learn how to do better.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:12

Sorry, that was a tangent.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

No, that was amazing.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

Thank you for sharing that. But it's it to me, it's just like we can take anything that happens in our life and we can use it as a crutch, or we can use it as a springboard into the next version of ourself. And I like to jump high, so mine's just a springboard every time. And I think it's good to like shift your perspective into instead of like I'm the victim, into like this happened to me, but I'm gonna use it to better myself and to take me further. And I'm gonna I'm gonna bring some people along with me that also need to be in that next level because I'm truly, truly. I just told my partner this recently. My passion from this point for the rest of my life is to empower men and women to feel that yes, this happened to me, but I'm gonna not let it be in vain. I'm gonna let it be something that betters my life, gives me this perspective. I'm gonna forgive, I'm gonna move forward, and I'm gonna make the best life that I can for myself and my children, or myself, or whatever your situation is. And I'm gonna just be, I'm just gonna let it be something that helps me get to a better state. I guess is what I'm trying to say. I just want everybody to just feel the way that I feel.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

Yeah. I love that because that in the forgiveness aspect, I often interchange the word forgiveness and acceptance. That when we come to this state where maybe your mom is saying you need to forgive him, we have to like accept that that was our reality. If whenever we're fighting that, like not forgiving, saying you have to say sorry for this, I have to have reconciliation for this, or essentially we're kind of saying, like, make me feel better. Yeah. I'm letting you decide when I get to heal instead of me deciding when I get to heal. Uh-huh. And we lose power when we do that. And uh so when we come to that field of or that space of acceptance and forgiveness, saying, I am choosing to not let you have any more power over me. I am going to take this moment and from here on, and forgiveness and acceptance does not mean we're accepting that bad things are okay. Right. It is I'm accepting that it happened and I am allowing it to be real, and because it is real, I can now say that this difficulties that I'm having are difficult instead of trying to pretend that you can continue throughout life without any help. Yeah. Right? That's part of that forgiveness and acceptance, is to be able to say, that sucked. That was the worst thing ever that has happened to me. And because it was, I now can open and say this is what happened. I can find a resolution because now I have a problem that I can attach to it. Yeah. And so I I love that you were able to find that for you and and you the beautiful life that you've now have. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

And it's because I didn't sit and be a victim. And I'm saying that not in a any derogatory way to somebody who's struggling. I say that in a way that people understand, like, you get to choose what happens next. You get to choose your next. And it didn't happen overnight, and it wasn't easy, and there was a lot of tears shed, and I was really hurt, and I was really sad, and there was a lot going on at that time. But what I'm saying is, whatever it takes, get to that point because that's when the true the true healing happens, is once you can just like let that be what happened.

SPEAKER_00 38:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:00

Accept that it happened to you. And let for me, it's God. For other people, it might be something different, but for me, it's let God handle whatever the work that out however he needs to. I don't need to worry about that. I want to just focus on me and getting better. And when I met my husband, I said, hey, you're cool and all, but I don't want to date anybody right now because I'm working on me. Because at that point in my life, I was like, I'm done dating. I'm gonna love myself and I'm gonna get myself to the point that no matter what happens in my life, I'm good. And then it that will put me in a place where when the person who's meant to be with me comes along, it'll just feel right.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:41

And then on our first date, I knew I was gonna marry him.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

So I guess I have a question for you then. Like to be able to get to that point, what built resilience? Like, what was it that empowered you to be able to make that decision? And what would you say to people who maybe haven't hit that point yet? How do you get to that point of resilience?

SPEAKER_02 40:02

Um, I was fortunate to have support around me. Like my parents were very supportive. It was interesting because looking back, I don't know that my mom actually said I don't want you to marry him, but I know that she said it to her friend, and her friend's like, well, she's gonna anyway, so you might as well support it. But when when everything was falling apart, and I had come back home, he had gotten arrested and I'd come back home because now I felt like okay, it's safe for me to be here because he can't, he he's in jail. I sat down with my parents and they didn't say, So you need to get a divorce, and you need they said, So now what? What's your plan now? And they made me say it from my own voice. They made me make the decisions, they made me say it. Because when I say it, now it's my decision. If they tell me what to do, I can blame them for whatever happens in the future, right? So they said, What are you gonna do? And that's one of the best parenting hacks I got from them is letting I've let my children decide consequences to things sometimes. And so they said, What are you gonna do? And I said, I'm done, I can't do this anymore. He threw me on the he put his hands on me, no, not okay. My dad took me that night to his friend's house who was an attorney, and we drew up divorce papers that night. And the next day he served him in jail. And that was hard because I like of course I I have I'm a very empathetic person, so I have this side of me that felt bad for him because I was leaving him and he had said, like, I'll kill myself and all these other things to me. And I struggled a little bit, like, did I make the right decision? You know, because you do that because it's a big decision to make when you leave somebody who's abusive. It's bigger than just leaving a regular relationship. Because regular relationships, okay, whatever, you're done. But abuse is way heavier. And so for me, it was having the support and love of my parents, but also using my voice to make those decisions and then standing on those decisions. Because I had decided to get divorced. That's it, that's what I'm doing. And then now I need to do things, I need to get a job, and I need to work really hard because I wasn't allowed to have a job when I was married either, because you know, something could happen at work. So I just had to start doing things to get back on track to the life that I really wanted to live. And then I just focused on big goals that I could that I had set for myself, and every time I reached a goal, I just felt better and better on myself.

SPEAKER_00 42:27

So essentially, what the gift your parents gave back to you was your power, empowerment. They gave you that space, and I love that you had that support system. That's I think that's part is huge. And if we could model systems like this for other people experience who have experienced violence to feel empowered, find find your local shelter, find your local resources and advocates, and police departments have advocates as well. And and what happens like when this when an incident happens, what are the following things that you can do? Like when I'm giving that power back for you to make that decision. And instead of your parents making that decision for you, like you said, it became my decision. So then you get to take accountability not for just the hard that you went through, and also not the hard only the hard thing that your your ex maybe even went through. But you also get to take accountability now for the the after effects of it of the life you've now built, and you get to take complete responsibility for making sure that you've created a safe space for your children. And I don't know if you know anything of your ex since then, but maybe we'd hope maybe he's corrected some wrongs in his life. Who knows?

SPEAKER_02 43:54

But I don't know. I don't know. Right. But I do know that. I have prayed that he gets better.

SPEAKER_01 44:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

Which I never thought I would do when I left. But when you do things that feel I don't know, when you've been abused, it feels counterproductive to pray for somebody, but for me, it made me feel like I can have grace and mercy for him. Whether or not he's sorry, that doesn't matter. I want to be the bigger person and I want to show people, not just him, but everybody, that no matter what has happened, I can be, I can have empathy and compassion for you. And it's okay. And it that doesn't make what you did to me okay, but it makes it that it makes me feel better that I can get to the place where I can wish well for somebody who hurt me so deeply. Because I feel like that I'm growing if I do that. And my whole goal, my whole life, has always been to get better. Every single day I want to be better. Like I have a t-shirt I wear to the gym that says me versus me because I'm not there competing against anybody else but myself. Like everything I do is to make me a better person so so that I'm a better mother, so that I'm a better wife, so that I'm a better sister, so that I'm a better friend. Like I just everything I do, I just want to be a better person because I want to show up big for all the people in my life that I love.

SPEAKER_00 45:17

I love that. And and you have obviously. You're in this space that we I think the way that you're talking about your family and talking about your partner and talking about your kids and the way you've come into this space, you've been able to to cre cultivate all of this through your own decision, through your own power. And I love that you've incorporated a lot of just the spirituality aspect into that, and that that's part of a support system. Yeah. Whether absolutely wherever, whatever probably bigger than my parents, honestly.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

It just feels I feel carried through some of the hardest times in my life because of that.

SPEAKER_00 45:54

Yeah. I have my own spirituality that I I rely on as well, and I would say that's a huge part of my ability to accept hard things in life. And because of that acceptance and being able to move forward from it. But but I mean, if that's that's also a huge part that can help guide forward. These resources are are available, and oftentimes people don't have their family members, right, that are supportive of this, or because a lot of the time one of the tactics used is isolation. And if that has happened, there are still ways that we can support and empower to end that cycle of abuse.

SPEAKER_02 46:44

And I always tell people too, you can be the beginning of that for others too. If you don't have that support support system, create it for yourself. Find trusted friends, find people around you that make you feel good about yourself, find friends that when you talk to them, you leave that conversation feeling like I can do anything now. Because having empowering yourself, because you don't have to rely on others to always empower you. I think that for me I've learned I need to empower myself. It's my job to empower myself. Yeah, at first I needed a little support there, but once I felt that and knew what it felt like to be empowered, oh sister, all day long I'm gonna empower myself because I'm capable of anything now because I feel I feel like that I'm I'm just I that's who I am. I could do anything. Yeah, and my husband's taught me how to work on cars here and there. That makes me feel empowered. I mean, honestly, and my dad, I grew up, my dad was a carpenter. I learned how to work with tools. I love building, I love sewing, I like like I have all these gifts and talents that I have, but all of it has made me feel like I can I can do anything and I can figure out how to do anything. And I know that's like physical, but sure. It's still it still goes in the bake, the empower bake, you know, like where you get to just rack up all of those things that tell you, look, you're capable, you're so very capable.

SPEAKER_00 48:08

And that then plays into self-confidence and self-love, right? You know you're capable of hard things, that you can do hard things, and and even you said it didn't come easy to like come into that, feel understand like that empowerment of yourself. But the moment you loved yourself in a way that created the pathway for you to create the life that you have now, when if you are receiving those messages that you aren't worthy of those things, it can be really easy to to start to believe in to believe them.

SPEAKER_02 48:46

They still creep in. Those seeds of doubt still creep in.

SPEAKER_00 48:50

And how do you manage when they do?

SPEAKER_02 48:52

I try to think about all the things that I've done that are opposite of what the voice is saying. Because you know, sometimes it's a little voice that's like, you don't know what you're talking about. What qualifies you? How do you know how to speak on this? And then I go, well, there's this, there's that, there's this, there's that, there's this, and I just make a list with my head. And then that shifts it for me because then I like I'm giving myself proof that that was a lie. So I try to like dispel the lie with with the list of truths. And I'm honest about it. Like, I'm not perfect, and I don't always get it right, and I don't always speak well to people, but I'm always trying to be better, and I'm always, always, always gonna tell myself the truth. So I'm getting better at telling, like, dispelling the lies that pop into my head because doing this work has brought up a lot of stuff for me. Like, you're not qualified, like you didn't go to school, you didn't do this, you didn't do that, but then I'm like, no, but I lived a life and I hadn't like in our house we say thug it out. I had to thug it out and figure it out. And I did. And I didn't I didn't go to therapy, but I did a lot of I did a lot of self-reflection. I read a lot of books that said, you know, when something comes up in a situation that it makes you feel a certain way, it's not like you made me feel that way, it's why am I feeling like this right now? Why does what somebody just said to me make me feel this way? And I own that feeling for myself, and then I try and say, okay, now how do I make it so that I don't feel that way when that is said to me again?

SPEAKER_00 50:34

Yeah. So it I mean, once again, that's empowerment, that's self-love, because and honestly, that's trauma-informed approach to ask why am I feeling this way, or when we're working with people, or when you are helping another survivor instead of saying, stop doing that action or just leave, we have to ask the question, why what what are you feeling by staying? What are you feeling by leaving? What are why is what they said making you feel this way? How true is that? We ask, we ask why, and then when they can when you as a person can take that ownership of what that feeling is, that's the empowerment piece where you get to take back that power and say, Oh, I'm not actually this description of what they're telling me. I'm so much more, I have the capability to to be better, or I can I have the power to make my own decisions in in maybe not in the sense yet, but it'll be in the future if I start to make these changes in my life.

SPEAKER_02 51:49

Yeah, and and once I again cracked that code to I have complete control over how I feel in any situation. And there have been things that have come up totally unexpected, like I'll be in a something will be going on and something will be said or done, and all of a sudden I get this like really strong feeling, and I'll go, whoa, what was that? And why am I feeling like that? And what is pushing me? I just feel like it's almost like a little nudge. Like, what's nudging me to feel that way, and how can I feel differently the next time I'm in this situation? Because like feelings are there for a reason. Like, we're supposed to feel all these feelings, and so it's just to me, it's like feedback and it gives me tools. Like that's the tool that I use is like, okay, this is the feedback I'm getting. Now, what do I do so that I can address this so that I can feel better the next time I'm in this situation, or I hear this phrase, or somebody says something to me, or I see that something's being done, and like maybe I'm not included, so why do I feel so terrible about being excluded? But I'm not really being excluded, I just wasn't invited. Does that make sense? Right.

SPEAKER_00 53:05

Well, and I think coming back to that support system you had, you probably had other people telling you the opposite of what you were being told by by your exact they're telling you you're loved, you're important, we're here for you. And I think being able I guess for you, like as someone that was in that position, for somebody to say those words to you, was that did that help empower you again? Or what how long did it when you first started hearing those words again, how did they they land with you? Like what words? Like, hey, we're here for you, or we love you. Like, you said it took a minute to believe it. How did you get to that point?

SPEAKER_02 53:49

Well, I've I've always known that I was loved by my parents. They like they never shut a door on me even when things were kind of crazy crazy in my marriage and I wasn't communicating a lot with my family. It was never like find, don't come and talk to us ever. There that was never on the table. Like, I've always known that my parents loved me. They might not have agreed with my decisions and they might not have loved my choices, but they loved me, and I knew that they always loved me, and I knew that I was always welcome back home if I ever needed anything. And there they were just they were a huge support to me. And I had to just relearn myself that I was worthy of that love. I always had it, and I knew I always had it, but I didn't always feel worthy of it because of choices I had made. I thought that certain choices made me unworthy. And I know now that that your worth never changes. Your worth is always great. Always. Always. No matter the situation, no matter how much somebody hits on you, no matter how much somebody yells at you, no matter what is going on, that does not change your worth. Your worth will never ever change. And everybody has that worth. Every single person has that worth. So remembering that you have that worth, I think, is the most the biggest thing. And then getting to the point where you can accept that worth. Because I think sometimes when you feel unworthy, you you can't accept the fact that you have worth. You just feel unworthy, so you just think that that's just what it is. But once you can accept that you do have that worth, then that everything can change then too.

SPEAKER_00 55:35

I think that second part is huge. Accepting that you have worth is that next step to empowerment. I'm gonna say that word probably a million times today. That's okay. I like that word. And and I think a lot of times what we see people in these experiences, and any of these people have probably burned relationships because of staying in a relationship that somebody might not approve of, or and I'm so happy you had people that were there to support you. And but I think one of the parts for people who have had like burned relationships or a minimal support system is starting at self-love again and knowing that you have worth. That starts within you. Is it easier to do that with a support system? Yeah, but but you can also access that again for yourself, you can access that without other people around you through your own self-reflection and finding that self-worth again. And when you accept that, you start to act accordingly and understand that what this person is telling me may not be true. Probably isn't, and it isn't.

SPEAKER_02 56:52

It's not. That's just how they probably it's just not true because you're worth it. And that's one thing that I just say over and over to my kids like it doesn't matter what you do. I will always love you. There's nothing you could ever do that would make me not love you. I might not like all your choices, but I will always love you. And then I think I take that a step further in my own mind, and I think about God, and I think I know how much I'm loved by God. And if he can love me through everything the way that he does, and he loves all of his children here on earth, and if he can love us all that way, that's only like I can't imagine, because I know how much I love my children, and I can't imagine how much he must love us. And we're all worthy to him, too. And if you have nowhere else to go, pray. If you don't know how to pray, Google it. Google cannot be learning how to pray. But just find something greater than yourself to rely on for support sometimes. And God is always there. And like I know not everybody believes in God, but I cannot deny that God exists because I honestly don't know if I would be where I am today without God.

SPEAKER_00 58:05

I love that you've opened up about that part of your life and you've been able to find that self-worth within it. And people who also believe in God, I think that's a great place to start. Right? And finding that self-worth is innate no matter what, because you exist, you deserve to have a place in this world. And no matter what your beliefs are or where whatever you what part of the world you're in, you you deserve a place in this world. You not only deserve a place in this world, you also deserve to be happy. Yes. Deserve to feel fulfilled. You deserve to be treated with kindness, you deserve to be respected. So once we start to believe that we deserve to be here and we're worth life, we deserve to be kind or treated with kindness. We deserve respect. We deserve abundance. We deserve whatever you start to believe in, you start to act upon.

SPEAKER_02 59:18

But there's an abundance of people available in this world that you don't have to put up with anything. You don't have to put up with anything. You get to choose what's okay and what's not okay. And look, my relationship with my husband hasn't been perfect from day one, but we've loved each other very strongly and we've worked really hard when things got tough. We talked about it, we worked through it. We haven't always said kind things to each other because that's just life. You know, not every angry word is abuse. Sometimes it's just a disagreement.

SPEAKER_00 59:51

Well, there's a difference between relationship conflict and abuse. Right. Right. You can have healthy conflict in a relationship for sure.

SPEAKER_02 59:58

You could even yell at each other and it's not abuse. Like, you know, just get that the voices get a little elevated while you're discussing something that's very you're both very passionate about. But the key is to give each other that grace and work really hard through it. Because if you're with a partner that's willing to work with you through the hardest times, that's where you can really grow. And that's how like the love for your partner just grows even more every time that you overcome the next obstacle or hurdle in your relationship. Because relationships can be hard, even the best, greatest relationships can still be hard sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:34

And I think giving each other grace and loving each other from where you're at and working together to just be better together. I mean, I've been married to my husband now for almost 26 years, and our youngest child is moving to California tomorrow. Oh my goodness. And it's a little sad to not have my kids in my home anymore. I mean, I still have my daughter, she'll she'll be there until she decides to get married, I think. Which I'm fine with. Yes. But it's like kind of getting to the point where now it's back to just me and my husband again. But we have all this life experience and raising children together and our growth to each other, growth together through all of those times. And we're so excited about this next chapter in our life because now it's like me and him, and we get to just go have fun and do great things. And it's exciting. Yeah. And so, no matter what state you're in in your life, just know that there's a way for you to better your situation. It's never final, it's never over. And even though it feels really heavy and hard, try to find support around you, try to find resources around you. Get the help that you need so that you can make your life everything that you want it to be. And I want to thank you so much, Kenzie, for being here. It's been so lovely talking to you. We might have you back again because I know there's a lot more that we have to talk about. But thank you for tuning in and God bless.