EP20: Why It’s So Hard to Leave a Narcissist | Shellene Hawkins Story

In this deeply emotional episode of the Irene Podcast, Shellene Hawkins shares her powerful story of resilience, survival, and transformation.

From experiencing childhood sexual abuse to navigating infertility, betrayal, and a high-conflict, toxic marriage, Shellene opens up about what it truly feels like to be caught in a cycle you cannot easily escape.

Why is it so hard to leave a narcissistic or toxic relationship?

This conversation explores the psychological and emotional pull that keeps people staying longer than they ever expected including trauma bonds, manipulation, and the deep desire to hold a family together, even when everything is falling apart.

Shellene also shares the reality of what happens after, the mental health battles, the rebuilding process, and the strength it takes to choose healing over bitterness. Her story takes an unexpected and powerful turn as she reflects on forgiveness, growth, and finding peace in places she never thought possible.

If you have ever questioned why someone stayed, or if you have struggled to leave a toxic relationship yourself, this episode will give you clarity, understanding, and hope.

Shellene Hawkins

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello, welcome back to the IREAD podcast. Today we have with us Shaleen Hawkins, and she's gonna share her beautiful story of resilience with us.

SPEAKER_02 0:07

Yes, first and foremost, I do want to say thank you to all of you that gave me this opportunity. Tell you a little bit about my story, kind of what pushed me to do what I had done. I'd started an Instagram page a year ago and just thinking, I've got this story to tell, but my story was more of how I came out of all of these trials. And in some of those trials, I like to refer to them as blessings because of what I learned from them and who it made me become. And so without those blessings, I wouldn't be who I am today. Okay. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

I love that messaging of blessings because that resonates with me. So I like that.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Now, some are trials, there's no doubt without that. But for the majority, I would say it was a blessing what I was given. So starting off as a young, as a little girl, I was nine years old. I remember sitting there with this older gentleman, uh family member, and all of a sudden this blanket went over us, and he grabbed my hand and started having me touch him. And in my mind, I'm like, what the is I I was confused, hated it, didn't know what to do, was shocked because we're in this room with other people, and it was just it was it was a very it just it threw me off to say the least. That started when I was nine, the sexual abuse, and it went on over and over and over until I was in sixth grade, so about 12 years old. The gentleman didn't live in state, he lived out of state and would frequently visit. And in those moments, I you knew it was gonna happen, you hated every minute of it, but your thought in my mind, I'm like, this this person's an adult, right? Is this normal? Is this what's supposed to happen? And I remember once we were we went to a local clothing store in my hometown. And in my little mind, I'm looking through these clothes, and this gentleman was with us, and there was these pink pajamas. And these pink pajamas went tied around my neck, well not tied, they buttoned around my neck, went down to my yes, thank you, and down to my ankles, and it came with a pink robe. And in my little mind, I thought, there's no way he can touch me. That was why I wanted these pink pajamas. I felt safe in those pink pajamas. So this continued to happen. I will say I was never raped, that I want to make sure that that never happened, but the sexual abuse happened over and over every visit he came. You would sit in there as a little girl and they would show up and we would be in bed. And you knew what that door was gonna open. And you knew what was about to happen as that door shut, and they would walk over, he would walk over and start touching you, and and you just got to where you hated it, right? But I thought if I told, was I gonna be in trouble, right? What's gonna happen? I remember one Sunday they were coming to visit, and I was ready early for church, which never happens, and I was just thinking, I am so tired of this. And this is something that I can't tell to this day how it came about, but I was told that another individual was gonna be started within my family. And in my little mind, I thought, oh, there was no way in hell he's gonna touch this person, this other. I come from there's five siblings, five girls in my family, two older brothers. And I had this instinct to protect came out. Still to this day, I don't know how, I honestly don't know how this thought even came to my mind. But as I was getting ready for church, these individuals were coming into town, and I thought, ah, I'm so tired of this, I don't want this to happen. And I I was ready early for church, and I pulled out this book, this random book, no reason that we would have had it, and it talked about this little girl. Her mom was bathing her to get her ready to take her to her uncle's house, and she was like, Ah, mom, I get so tired when I go there. I get so tired of having to go there. He always tells me I'm dirty, and he puts me in the bathtub, and I hate it, and he touches me, and it just clicked. Like, this isn't right. And I thought, okay, I'm gonna tell so-and-so after church. I go to church and my mind's just racing. I get home from church and I had a stronger impression to just tell my mom. I pulled my mom into the bathroom and I told her everything and I wasn't in trouble. So I was like, okay. She tells me, takes me into my dad's room and set into their room and says, you know, just repeat everything you told me to tell your father. But I told them, and I remember walking out of that room feeling relieved like this is this is like this is over. From that moment on, it was the the abuse stopped, the touching stopped. But the mind games from abuse didn't stop, right? As a young girl trying to understand and comprehend, we dealt with some legal from it, but we they wanted us to go to therapy. And I remember as a young girl, we're sitting in this therapist office and sit, right? I'm 12 years old, I'm sitting across this grown man, and a little bit into the appointment, as I'm explaining to him, he's watching his watch, and I'm thinking, he has no idea what he has no idea what I'm going through. He has no idea what this feels like, what the the fear is. This man has no idea. And it clicked to me at that moment. I felt so unrelated to. I had nobody that could even relate to what I was going through for the most part. I had nobody. And I never went back to therapy. I had nothing against therapy. For me, I felt like experience outweighed knowledge. I felt like you could understand, you could read all the textbooks you want, and this is against no therapist, but to actually fully engage in it and to know and experience it.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

To feel like you can fully relate to somebody. That's what I wanted. That's what I craved. And after that, so the abuse stopped, but then I found this fight that I've got to like figure this out and figure me out and and how to cope with it. At 12 years old. At 12 years old. The individual at times didn't stop coming around. That was that that was something that I had to learn to overcome and stick up for who I was. I was raised LDS, and so I had to understand at a 12-year-old's mind the severity of it to a religion stand of it to make to see where nothing real I mean, s it stuff happened to him, but not what I would have thought should have happened to him. And so to feel like in the mind in the church aspect, that really kind of confused me as well. So, anyways, I feel like at that time though, going after I experienced the abuse, I I just craved wanting to feel related to, to understood, because I didn't feel like there was anybody around I could turn to. But like I said, that trial, I felt like now looking back, built this fire in me to prepare me for what was to come, the next phase of my life. And so I look back now and I think that was that's minor. For some women, it's huge. That might be the something, right? I wasn't raped any of that, but that gave me this inner fight to experience as I grew older. And I got married. A year into our marriage, we found out we could not have kids. And again, being LDS, that's what your your faith is on as family, right? And everybody dreams of being a mom. There's there's nothing greater than that calling in my life. There's nothing greater than that calling of being a mom. So we were told that that was not an option. We could not have kids. And I remember being in the car with an individual, and thank you. I remember being in the car as an individual, and I was trying to, I was talking to this person like about our situation, and I said, you know, my my my ex-husb now my ex-husband, he had sent me this photo of this, of this, the route we were looking at going. And he's when I said to this person, I'm like, oh, this is, you know, this is the individual we might want to go with. And I was told in that moment that the church disagrees with that. I thought, interesting. Here we are. Like a surrogate donor. Oh, okay. Here we are supposed to have a family, but now you're telling me how I'm supposed to have a family. That wasn't gonna fly with me. Like I was raised very black and white, and this isn't anything against my upbringing. It was just that I was raised very black and white, but I had to step out of that box to find my way to navigate through these trials. So we had the option of to adopt or to go donor out. This infertility world was so foreign to me. Yeah, I didn't have a clue even what that word meant, right? I grew up around a ton of a ton of cousins. Fertile people. Yes, all of them. Six plus, seven plus kids, right? I come from an amazing, amazing family. So all of a sudden they're like, you can't have kids. And that's that's one of the moments now looking back, having my ex-husband experience it, that's probably one of the more, probably one of the tender more moments experiencing with him is being told we couldn't have children. So we go this route of having a donor to be able to have my two kids. And it was, but it was in that moment when you're told you can't do something that I'm the type that tell me no and I'll prove you wrong. I'm gonna I'm gonna fight like hell. Tell me no and I'll do it harder. Yes. Like I will prove you wrong or it will come out on top of this because you just told me I couldn't do it. And I mean, I'm if I was to be honest, I mean, the day before I had these kids, I was like, please, please tell me you put the right donor in me. Like I signed off on this paper and we did it, and it was such a foreign thing to me, and some where people were against it, but it's interesting of what you go through is almost for other people to open their eyes. And in that self, it's a blessing. Yeah. Because of some people that were raised or are I hate to use the word narrow-minded or haven't experienced much. So because of that trial, I look at that as a blessing for a lot of people around me to open their eyes, of what's to be more open-minded, okay?

SPEAKER_01 11:11

What's really out there, what's possible, and what people really, really have to go through when they really just want a family. Because I mean, I'm fortunate that I was able to have my three children the way that everybody else does, mostly, you know. And so, like those trials though, like I don't think people realize, like, no, would you want to have a baby so bad, but you can't? Like, I just can't even imagine the heartache that you go through, and then somebody tells you, Well, you can, but you just can't do it that way. Right. Well, I'm gonna. I I'm sorry. Because I like I would look at it like, well, I know that that the Lord wants me to have a family. Right. And I don't think he's gonna be like, oh, but not that way, because he wouldn't allow it to happen if it wasn't able to happen that way. So true. I I I think that that's beautiful that you were like, that's fine and everything, but I'll I'll I'll deal with that relationship with the Lord when it comes up, when I have to. But for now, this is what feels like I should be doing, and I'm gonna do it.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

This is what's gonna work best for me. Yeah. And in those moments, the word selfish I hate entirely because what gets taken out of context is when you do what's best for you, can also be interpreted as being selfish. But in reality, long-term turns out to be the best thing for you and is the most unselfish move ever.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

But I think that sometimes we use the word selfish as a negative word, but I think selfish can be such a positive word too. Without a doubt. Sometimes we need to be selfish for survival. For sure. We need to be selfish to get through so that we can manage the things that are in front of us right now. But if I don't take care of me, there's no way I'm gonna take care of all of this.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

So true. I've learned that you cannot love somebody until you love yourself. You can only love them as much as you if I don't, if I'm if I don't love myself, I'm looking at what you're gonna do for me in return. Without me, when I love me, I can just look at you and be like, that's my goal is to make you happy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

It doesn't have to be transactional.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

For sure. And so we went the we went the route of the donor. Both of my kids are from the same donor, and we kept it under wraps. Out of respect for my my ex-husband, I kept that under wraps. I wouldn't show a picture, didn't do any of that. The bet the biggest blessing though is being s thinking outside of the box. And I don't know now where the church stands on it. Back then I was just told it they they didn't agree with that. Yeah. Which may or may not have even been true.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

True.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

It could have just been something someone heard somebody. But what's interesting is those that were somewhat against it now would be like, oh, that was that was the best thing you ever did. So that's why I say sometimes in our own trials and blessings, turns around is the biggest blessing for those around us. Yeah, it shows them the different yes. To show them that there's to be more open-minded, because that's at the end of the day, I feel like that's what the world needs is a little bit more open-mindedness. Oh yeah. I agree.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

So when we've so many ways, right?

SPEAKER_02 14:06

So many ways across the board. Yeah. I feel like it's just very narrow-minded. And again, I grew up in Utah. Yeah. Right. I didn't know that. I grew up in a very small town. We all may for the most part, my siblings are all LDS, my family's all my extended family's LDS, no, everybody could have babies. Right. So all of a sudden, I didn't hear of abuse. So all of a sudden it's like, here comes abuse, here comes infertility, right? And you're just, I mean, you go month after months just peeing on sticks after sticks after sticks. Just I mean, you're thinking I'm seeing, I'm seeing the pink line, and it's like, no, you're not. So when you finally get that opportunity, until you until you are faced with something, you don't even understand the strength that you have within you, or what you're willing to do to achieve that. And that was something that I was very grateful for. So we chose we chose the donor. That's something I to this day would be probably if I could have anything in my life, it would be to find him and to give him a hug and tell him thank you for that opportunity to be a brother. When you're looking for a donor, the process is like you're on Amazon. Let's be real, right? You're just scrolling and you're gonna try to find the most attractive guy. Let's be honest. Like, you're gonna want somebody somebody wants to produce ugly babies.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Somebody that doesn't have a lot of health problems, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:30

Like, I didn't want no ugly babies. Like, we're just gonna be real. If you have the opportunity, you're gonna make sure you're gonna go out with the baby on it.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

You know that's gonna be the DNA your children are gonna share. So like, why not look for that when you're gonna be able to do that?

SPEAKER_02 15:43

I wasn't wanting some fun too, Redhead. No offense. But mama wasn't looking for that. Well, that's not your thing. No, and it may be some, and they totally respect that, but for me it wasn't. But to be honest, in that moment though, I wanted my ex-husband to be as much involved. Like he picked him out, he picked the names, he did all of that. And so, but in it, it gives you all their information, right? So you have all their medical history, you have everything that you could possibly want, probably more on him than I have on my on the actual dad, right? And so, but in the in the bio, he wrote, and he wrote about a paragraph, what he would want to say to his future children. And he gave the reason as to why he did it. And his reason behind it was that he saw what it had done for his sister. So I felt like his heart was in it and very genuine. And it just there was something about him that gravitated to me to him.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

Well, I believe in intuition, and I really think that that's what helps us make the best choices. If we just listen and stop questioning.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

And the sad thing is, is if I would have listened to those around me, I would have talked myself out of it or allowed others of opinions to influence me on something that way heavier turned than your own. Turned out to be the greatest blessing in my life. So I have these two beautiful children. I have a daughter and my son who is 12. So when my daughter, she was she was five, my son was 18 months, and my ex-husband had just hired a girl. We were living here at the time. And he traveled a lot for work. I never was threatened at all, right? I never was threatened by another female. Because you trusted that relationship. Yeah, I just I uh begin. This is a foreign world. I just never thought of anything like that would happen. It just never crossed my mind. And I do remember though, the night that he said he'd came home and he'd hired this girl. I looked her up on Facebook and I was like, I there's just something felt off. And I was like, I just I don't feel right. I something feels off about this girl. And he's like, ah, she's fine. She's young, she has a boyfriend. And I'm like, okay. And he kept trying to like convince me, and I'm just like, okay, just maybe I'm being overparanoid. I don't know. That was in, I want to say, September, October, was it, 2014? Sweet girl at the time was her sec was his secretary, and we would take her cookies, and my kids would draw her pictures, and about six months later, this would have been in April. So, yes, that was 2014, 2015, and things just kind of started taking a turn, and his behavior kind of started to change. And we'd been married almost 10 years at this time. And I remember he came home from a conference one weekend in April, and he was playing this song, The Biggest Cheerleader. I can't remember the name of it, but something about a biggest cheerleader. And he was just super happy, and I said, I'm like, this is kind of weird. But I again didn't think anything of it. And then a month later, he came home from a business trip, and things just I remember him telling me the next day that he was gonna hire another girl. And I was like, Well, that's every woman's dream is to have her husband work with a room full of women. Just joking. And it just flipped a switch. And from it just, I mean, it went into I mean, he just completely stopped calling me babe, stopped doing everything, just went completely distant. And for the next four months, I mean, when I said I went crazy, I went crazy trying to prove that there was something going on. And I would just sit there, put my kids in front of the TV, and just scroll, scroll through receipts, anything I could find because of his demeanor. I wasn't allowed to no longer go to his office. I wasn't, it was just weird. I didn't know what to do. I knew something was off. I couldn't figure it out. I remember one night he came home from work and he's like, I am I'm just leaving. I'm going to Vegas. This was like in July. It's been a couple months now. And he's like, I'm going to Vegas. And he would immediately, and then he immediately blocked me. So I'm sitting here with these two kids, wondering what the hell is going on with my life at this point, right? My husband's, I don't know what's going on with him. I can't figure things out. The next day he comes home and I go out to go grocery shopping with my daughter, and I just had this feeling to look in his trunk. And I opened his trunk and there's like her clothes. When I go in, he's like, no, no, no, no. Like I had to take her to the airport. I mean, the guy had an excuse for everything. Within seconds. Within seconds. I felt like I was going crazy, right? Like, no matter what I found, there was that within a second, he would have an excuse as to why. And I'm like, that just doesn't make sense. And your intuition is going like this, and you're just like Stomach is just like, Schleen, something's off, and you're just like, oh, I knew you just feel crazy. And I remember just I would he would fall asleep and I would literally just like slither across the floor and just try to get into his phone, trying to do anything, and you're just like, you're desperate. You just want anything or anybody to prove that you've got this last piece of the puzzle, right? They're just that narcissism is next level of trying to prove them wrong because they can come up with something on a whim.

SPEAKER_03 21:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:16

So I remember that night after I saw those clothes, he slept on the couch. And I'm like, this isn't right. And I know he'd stayed at a specific hotel in Vegas. And I sat in the closet and I called this hotel. They they said no, they couldn't give me information. I called it again. I said I kept calling this hotel, and finally I'm sitting there, and the manager gets on, and he's like, ma'am, we will not tell you, like, we can't give you any information. Like, stop calling. And I remember just sitting in that closet just crying, like, there's not a soul around you to help you. And it's interesting because a lot of people will say this, and people do. This right, if you have an experience, like ah, I wouldn't do this, right? If when I have kids, they're gonna be perfect and they're gonna have a snotty nose in sight and they're gonna always look great, right? Or my husband ever cheated on me, I leave him in two seconds. I'm like, you say that until you look at like your five-year-old and your 18-month-old, and you're gonna fight like hell because that's your family.

SPEAKER_03 22:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

So I've learned when people make comments, your time will come.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

Like it's a it's out of ignorance, it's not out of like a disrespect or anything. It's it's more about like it's easy to say, but for sure. If you really sat with yourself in a moment and just thought, like, what would it look like if I left this right now? Took my kids and left. Yeah, what would that look like? What would that feel like? I don't even think you can imagine it. I think that you can try to, but I think like if you really are really honest with yourself and you sit there in that moment, you can try can start to understand how hard it must be for people. Because the other thing that I a lot of people don't understand is the psychological abuse that happens. Oh. And the the the And the moment you have no idea what you're going to do. Has been created because they'll be so kind to you and that's what you crave. Yes. And then they rip the rug out from underneath you, and then when you're a shell of yourself and they feel like, oh, she might be on the edge. I I need to love bomb her again to bring her back in. So it's this cycle that didn't start out that way, but has become that way, and now you have these children involved as well. So it's not just you, because it's easy to leave when it's just you. Right. Rip the bandit off and go about your way. It's fine. But then now you have these beautiful children involved, and you don't want to disrupt their lives, but you also don't want them to be raised thinking this is normal or healthy or okay. And what I feel like this whole chaotic like mind thing that's happening.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

It's the mind game for sure. Yeah. And and I don't know if it's more so women. I can't speak for a man that's been cheated on by his wife, but I feel like for women, art, we see the full picture. I and for me, you're seeing the future, you're seeing the repercussions of what the long term is gonna affect, right? Like this family's no longer. Where in the moment his his vision was just this girl. And when you're being compared to to a 22-year-old, oh hell, I'm not gonna, I'm not going to ever be that person. And he would say to me a lot, she's everything you're not. I was like, well, he'll I can be fun, right? I can be cool. And I tried, like I tried drinking, I tried, I did, I tried drugs a couple times. I'm like, this is not me. Like I am completely lowering who I am just to keep you around. I you I will never ever and then that messes with you because you're like, well, I don't have to change who I am. You take it as it's you. Yeah. Like it's me.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

It's not.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

Like I need to change everything about me. If I needed this to work, I need it to change. And for a while, I'm like, I thought I was a decent person, but what was hard for me in that moment was because of the infertility that I was like, I fought like hell for us to have this family. I will be damned if some 22-year-old comes in and takes it from me. Like, you will not be in my family, you will not be in my children's life. Yeah. So I look back now, and I don't couldn't say if I was actually fighting for the family, fighting for him, or if I was fighting against this 22-year-old out of pride as a grown woman, as a mom, as a wife.

SPEAKER_03 25:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

And so in that sense, so we sat, we we tried to battle, we tried to I tried to figure this out. I was trying to, and for another month, I was just going crazy. And finally, what was it? One night we decided to separate, and I went back to my hometown. And I remember just sitting there, like in my parents' house. I'm like, what in the world is going on with my life? I've got like 10 garbage sacks full of my clothes sitting in this spare bedroom. These two little kids, and this man's in my house down in St. George. With some girl, probably. Yeah. And I just was floored. Yeah. And I have always had this fight in me, and I just was like, this isn't gonna happen. We stayed there for about a couple weeks, and I came back down, and we tried a little bit longer. And I was supposed to run the marathon on one weekend. No, no, no, let me back up. I ran the Cedar City half marathon. Running was a big thing for me to escape, right? I could go out. And not gonna lie, you're pretty rock bottom if MM is like your like your fight song. Yeah, I'm just like, I get what you mean. You I get it, I get everything. Your song is so relatable. Like, I don't need therapy, I need Eminem. But that was like, I could totally just understand for some reason. I couldn't get right, I could throw it down with Eminem. Like, we could do this. No, we couldn't. But Eminem and I could do it for long runs. But uh we I went down to to run this marathon and this half marathon. And I came back, and when I walked in my house, I mean it was like there was stuff in my daughter's bathroom, there was hair on a towel, stuff in my bed, and I'm just like, this is no. I had my kids take my I had my parents take my kids home that weekend, and I sat, because he was left, he left. He said he was going on a business trip, and I sat at my house for three days in silence and just sat there and sat there. And I remember one night, one of those nights, I just sat in the bathtub. And this is my story, I'm not proud of it, but I just sat there and drank. You're so hurt, you just want to numb. And in that moment, that's the only way you know how you're alone, the pain is more, your family's falling apart. There's 22-year-olds taking your family. You got these little kids that you feel like you failed. So I sat there and I was just just numbing myself. And not knowing who to call, had nobody to call. And I'm just thinking, this is like rock bottom. Like, how could it get worse than this? And he came home the next day, and I remember I was like, where and he told me he'd gone to Colorado. And he's like, I lost service. Again, like just making you go crazy, nothing makes sense. So I remember as I'm walking out to go back to my parents' house, though, to get my kids. I see a receipt in his car for Taco Bell, and there's two orders. I was like, what he's like, I was super hungry. And I'm like, oh, this just doesn't, oh my gosh, this doesn't make sense. I remember getting into Pero and I called my dad, I'm like, I gotta turn around. And I turned around and I drove back to St. George. And I start driving to every spot because he wasn't at the house, and I remember driving to every spot I could possibly think he was at. And this girl lived a quarter of a mile up the road from us in a townhome. So I remember I never had confronted her, but I was like, he might be there. So I I pulled in, I called her phone, and I said, Is so-and-so there? And she's like, Yeah. I'm like, send him out. So, anyways, he comes out, he goes home, we get into a big fight, whatnot, and I I left. And I called her on the way back when I was leaving, and I said, Hey, have you have you kissed my husband? Have you kissed so-and-so? She's like, Yeah. So, have you slept with him? She's like, Yeah. I'm like, you know, we're like we're married. She's like, You told me you left three months ago to go back with your high school boyfriend. So she genuinely, I'm gonna say she genuinely at the time did not know. And so then I found out the affair had happened. But what's interesting in that moment, even though now you have all the pieces of the puzzle, that's still not enough, right? Like, if you think if I have this piece, I'm gonna then I'm gonna leave.

SPEAKER_03 30:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:11

But then I'm like, no, but then I need to know more. Then it turns into like, oh hell. Is it just her? Is it just her? Well, uh come to my no, there was a lot more that had gone on. But I was thinking, like, I'm still I'm gonna fight for this family. So, anyways, at that point I feel like it did kind of become a game tour after that. Before genuinely, she didn't know. So a month later, I go back home, we're kind of back and forth. Anyways, a month later I'm supposed to run the St. George marathon. And he comes home, and it was her birthday weekend, and he I was telling Mike, we're at the table, and he's like, No, we need to separate and do more therapy. I really want this to work. That's what they're telling you the whole time, right? So you're thinking they do, but actions obviously are not matching. Yes. So I'm sitting there at the dinner table, and I tell my girl, hey, we're going back to home, to my parents' house. And she just starts crying. And at this point, I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm done. I'm failing. And at this point, phone is being hidden, things are secretive. He tells me he's going on a business trip. After I run the marathon, my family is gonna come down and help me move some things. I go in the room and I'm like, where's this phone? Where's this phone? And I find the phone. And on it, there's a text that says, Are we still good for the weekend? She was coming over to bring something, and I remember going out there and being like, I told you, I told you, right? Flipping out. And I go out to confront her in the street. And he's following me, saying, and trying to call her on the Apple Watch, telling her not to come, and tells me to get back inside. We get back inside, and he just grabs you from under, cuts me, throws me on the starts. Domestic violence kicks in at that point. My two little kids are sitting there. And my son obviously has no clue what's going on. My daughter's just screaming, because now I have the phone. Like I have everything that I need on this phone, and I was going to protect it at all cost. And I just held on this phone as he was just doing his thing. I was able to kick, turn over, kick him, and I jumped over the back couch, over the back of the couch, and ran out the back door across the street to my neighbor's house and just was pounding on their door. And anyways, they he comes out and I'm saying so-and-so is hitting me, like he's cheating, da-da-da-da. It was just, it was all like a blur. He comes over, anyways. Cops, he takes off, cops get involved, ex is arrested, whatnot. And then the next day, my entire ward. I remember like he drained the bank account. I had to go deal with domestic violence at the at the police station, deal with phones, stuff like that. So my brother comes down, takes me and my kids back to Cedar. As I was coming down, though, the street, it's a vision I'll never forget. As we pulled into my street, it was just lined with cars from my home ward. When I got there and my family as well, my siblings, and it was packed top to bottom. And we in that moment, we had packed up everything, and it all was just such a blur that whole weekend. Just everything went from like everything to nothing. And we moved back to my town. And so for eight years we were able to get back on our feet. But during that time, I remember I've never dealt with mental health. I never understood it. I didn't I didn't grasp what people meant by depression and that. But I remember going to the doctor about two months afterwards. The only way I could express to him is like, I just can't I have this, like I like I'm trapped in a fire, like in a burning building and I can't get out, just constantly panicked. And he's like, that's anxiety. I'm like, what? And that journey now kicked in with here comes mental health, right? And constantly having medication on me and having to function, having to find ways to get through it. And I wasn't gonna come dependent on medication, and running became a huge part of that.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

Like a little escape to help you like get right without having to take something.

SPEAKER_02 34:13

If in the moment during the day you'd see me running, I I was a big runner back then, and I would just put on my shoes. It became, and I'm not a very sentimental person, but those shoes became my therapist. And it was and to let go of them was kind of in a weird way hard. Because they'd been they'd seen you through some of your darkest times, right?

SPEAKER_00 34:32

Your most vulnerable moments, but also your lowest yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:38

So but I'm like a trusted friend that you can throw on and just go. My good old Hocus just right there, my best friend with me. But I remember thinking, like, I'm not gonna let this take me down, and I knew that if I found it out, when I could feel it coming on, I would get on those shoes and I would go for a run, and within 30 minutes my head would be clear. During this time, though, my daughter developed allopatia from anxiety herself as a little five-year-old. And that, and I don't know if you're familiar with it, is when it's attacks the hair follicles. And within 24 hours, she's got a pea-sized bald spot, and within probably a week it's size of a quarter slick ball, top of her head. So she'd express it as bad feelings. But sorry, to back up a little bit though, when we came back to my hometown, legal started, and about the divorce was final about six months later. I didn't initially file just because I I was still gonna fight. That fight was still, I mean, even after everything we'd gone through, that fight was still gonna be there. This was and people were upset. But at the end of the day, I'm like, you go home to your husband and your family. This is not gonna affect you like it's gonna affect me and my kids.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Plus, I think there's something I don't know if it's women or if it's just certain individuals. There's something to I will do exhaust everything that I can do to try to make this work for sure before I give up. Because I want to be sure that I've done everything that I could before I throw in the towel. When I was like, I spent so much time, work, and effort on this to get to this point. I don't want to just let it go that easily. I will fight.

SPEAKER_02 36:19

I wasn't gonna sign those papers until I knew I had exhausted everything.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

Even if somebody else is like, this isn't good for you, like but I have to do this for me. I have to show myself that I gave it everything that I had, and then I could know that I made the best decision when it's time to come.

SPEAKER_02 36:35

I never wanted to look back with regret. Right. And it wasn't until six months later, and we did. I moved there, he kind of bounced around, but it wasn't until about six months later. Oh, it's been like mid-March or mid-April, he showed up with the hickey on his neck, and I was just like, I'm out. Like I can't. I've I've done everything I can. I will never be this girl. And then the divorce, you don't care so clearly. And so I just couldn't. I was this nobody wants to be competed with, nobody wants to feel like you're gonna be compared to constantly.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

You also don't want to fight to be loved. No, you shouldn't have to.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

You want to be loved because you deserve to be loved, yeah. And they want to love you. And but to fight for it to beg somebody to change for it in a negative is not healthy. And so, anyways, that just started the process of six years of legal. And I battled this girl that she wasn't gonna be around my family, she wasn't gonna be around my kids, and it was a constant battle. But this is where I like to turn around my entire story, is because this girl, and I say her name Ashley, because I've I've talked about her and I introduced her on my Instagram, came to be one of my best friends. Going from secretary to mistress to enemy to a girl that I love more than I could possibly tell you. I look at her as a blessing because she saved me from what I was not supposed to be a part of. That's big. I never was gonna get an apology from either of those two. So either either I could sit there and I could live with animosity, bitterness, hatred, because you kind of effed my life over, or I could shift the way I saw the situation and saw that you are good for my kids, you're a friend, you didn't ever try to take my spot as a mom. She was young, she got played as well. So either I was gonna have to change, or I was just gonna stay mad, and I promise you, mad is not even worth a place to be in.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

No.

SPEAKER_02 38:50

No. Because you're giving that power to this person, couldn't care less. Women to to this day, when I talk to women, I'm like, and it's easy to say when it's hindsight, right? When I was in the thick of people, are like, oh my gosh, kids are resilient. I'm like, no, they're not, they're gonna fail, and they're probably gonna be drug addicts, and we're probably gonna be pregnant at 16. But in reality, now that I'm 10 years past the situation, yeah, oh my gosh, kids are resilient. And what I would have done differently now, like, hey, that happened. What I wish I would have done is filed and shown my worth of what I saw in myself. But I allowed that girl and the situation to take me to a place that I didn't need to be, but I allowed her to make me feel like I was nothing, I wasn't worth everything. I allowed him to make me feel like it was my fault. I have the problems. Reality is those are demons I'm never going to. Those are his demons that I will never battle. I will never be come like compete with. That's him. That wasn't me. And it took me a long time to understand that it wasn't me. And there was nothing you could have done either to avoid it because it's no matter how much I changed my life, it was him, it was not me. And so to look at Ashley now with such love, it was probably the best change of mind that I could have ever done for myself. And to gain such a great friend, but to change the way I looked at the affair as a blessing.

SPEAKER_03 40:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

I look back at infertility, and what's sad to me is as I started this page is how common all this stuff is.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

The abuse in people's lives.

SPEAKER_02 40:36

How common it is for this abuse to happen and that it's not talked about. But how common it is. It is shamed. And for some reason, we want to protect the abuser. That was the one person that I never brought to light on my page. But out of protection for other people. And it's still kind of just weird to me, but I I've since cut ties with the individual. Like he nothing, there's there's not I don't want him around me or my kids. There's nothing there. But I'm amazed at how common it is, and within family. You always think something's gonna happen by somebody that's like a like somebody I don't know. What am I trying to say here? Like an a stranger danger. But within family, yeah. So that to me, out of everything I've gone through, that is a trial.

SPEAKER_01 41:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:29

Abuse is a trial. I'll never understand a grown man or women. Women do it too. I'm not gonna just narrow it up, but I'm never I'll never understand the mindset of an individual. And we and he was confronted years later, and it didn't even like at first he was denying it, and then it slowly came out. And then there was other people that happened to within my family, like cousins and stuff. And I it was in that moment though, as we're talking to him, I looked at him and for the first time I'm like, man, I feel bad for you.

SPEAKER_03 42:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:02

Like what a miserable life you have. Like you had everything, and you allowed that, and that doesn't even register what you've done to people.

SPEAKER_01 42:13

Like you chose to dis to because it could destroy lives.

SPEAKER_02 42:17

Oh, it does, and that's what breaks my heart.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

At least it disrupts, but it could destroy lives, and you're just over there like yes, so like you're you're so desensitized to what you do to others.

SPEAKER_02 42:29

And that moment I that hit me hard. And I should so when I got divorced though, two years later I did get remarried. Again, I didn't I didn't grow up around divorce, really. So here we have abuse, didn't grow up around it, infertility didn't grow up around it. Divorce, there was maybe a couple aunts. Nobody had done with stepkids, nobody it was this whole life is so foreign to me. So I got remarried, I wasn't in a good place, I was still so broken, great guy, but just wasn't just it just stepkids, it was just hard. It was hard. You're you're now like, I'm worried about me and my kids. That was my focus. I wasn't there to I couldn't in I wasn't in a place to love anybody else other than me and my kids.

SPEAKER_01 43:14

And like you said earlier, you hadn't done that healing fully. Yeah. So you didn't fully love and trust yourself yet, you know.

SPEAKER_02 43:20

No, no, you didn't.

SPEAKER_01 43:21

So you can't show up in a way that others need or no or that you want to necessarily if you haven't repaired all of that. No, you can't so that you can be fully present and be fully yourself for sure and be what others might need for you in certain moments. Exactly. Stepchildren.

SPEAKER_02 43:39

Yes, that is that that's hard. Blending is hard. And I we were married for about 18 months, and I just it was getting heavy. It was getting heavy of everybody's opinion of how we should do things right. I was in the thick of legal at that time. I was just feeling like I'm failing as a New wife, ex-wife, as a daughter, right? This is this was this was foreign to my family. And so they're they're wanting to give opinions, right, on what should have been done. And now they've seen. And I think that's where we allow grace though for others, because it was a learning experience for all of us. But I I went through that second divorce, and that was probably the best thing I could have ever done for myself. Because it was in that moment, and as I was explaining it to my dad when I was telling him, and they weren't happy about it, they really like this guy, but I said, Dad, it's like I'm putting my middle finger to everybody. Like I cannot, I cannot move forward until I honestly get into a good place and take care of my kids. And it was in that moment that I chose me. And I learned that is okay. We are not taught to choose ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

But when you do selfish, but in the negative way, right? It's not selfish in a way that is like, no, I need to be selfish right now because I need to learn to love me. I need to learn who I really am, what I really want in my life. I need to still raise these children while I'm doing that. So that's a big heavy burden as well. But I need to be selfish right now because once I can truly love myself, I can show up how I want to for the people that I love around me. Yes. But I can't do that until I get there.

SPEAKER_02 45:20

And that's what you always when church were we were always taught service, service, service. But service isn't really service unless you're if you're looking for something in return. To me, that's not service. Service is when you just do it out of the goodness of your heart and you generally just want to make that person happy, right? And so I look at that moment as a very big defining factor because uh a lot of people disagreed with it. But in that moment it taught me you never know what's going on behind closed doors. So what you thought was good, but you didn't see my daughter with bald spots. You didn't see that I was still going the thick of it with legal and just constant battering of emails and feeling lesson. You didn't see what it was causing between me and some family members of opinions. And that was the biggest moment to me that really made me see that you never know what somebody is going through. Yeah. And so do your opinions keep them to yourself, because you you've never been in your shoes, you don't know what's going on, and again, you're seeing a corner of a full picture being played out. Yeah. And so if I look back and I think I never knew how I was gonna again, I didn't grow excuse me, I didn't grow up around abuse, I didn't grow up around infertility, I didn't grow up around divorce, domestic violence, anxiety, didn't know what that was, right? And going back, and the reason why I wanted to start that page is because we don't talk about things. I don't know if we're just ashamed.

SPEAKER_01 47:00

Yeah. Yeah. I think for some reason there is shame around it. And I don't under I still don't understand it because none of us asked for it. No, none of us sought it out, none of us like we're the victims of these circumstances, yet we feel shame sharing it with other people. And I think maybe some of it could be like, well, why didn't you leave sooner? Well, you don't know what that looks like. Like you don't think you do, like we just talked about.

SPEAKER_02 47:24

If you have no degree and you've got kids sitting on you, counting on you financially, and all you've ever been in your marriage is a wife or a mother.

SPEAKER_01 47:33

Say, oh mom, didn't work for the 10 years I I was, and I loved that about my life, and I homeschooled my children, and there's so many beautiful blessings as being part of that, and then now my children are all all adults, and so and so I've had to find like who am I now? Then I have this beautiful opportunity to share Irene with people and to help people who are in those states where like almost like you feel like you're in limbo, like you don't know what's next, you don't know how you're gonna make this beautiful life that you want for your children to have, you don't want them to suffer or struggle or go without things, and and so how am I supposed to do that when all I've ever been was a wife and a mother?

SPEAKER_02 48:15

But it but then I look at that and I am so grateful because it taught me to find me. Yes, find me outside. I'm no longer a wife. Now my kids are gone every so often. I'm like, well, who the hell is Shaleen? Yeah, like I I don't know who I am, I don't know what I like, I don't even know where I stand in the church. I was raised this way, right? And so I I that's why I say when you go back, abuse to anybody, that's a trial. That's just something I'll never understand. I won't be able to wrap my head around why people do what they do on that thing. I think you're a sick, twisted individual, and that I had to. Somebody just to make yourself for sure. Child that had anyways. But if I go forward, I look at the donor, a blessing. Yeah. Absolute blessing in my life. I infertility. I was able to be able to see and to be able to hold that calling of a mom with far more pride than maybe I would have had I just come so natural to me, right?

SPEAKER_01 49:17

Yeah, or it was easy because you had the income coming in and you just focus on being this mother.

SPEAKER_02 49:22

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 49:23

And that's a beautiful thing as well. That's a burst shade to people that get to have that opportunity, right? But I but also like these trials that happened, because I I love that perspective of blessings, because you could even look at the divorce as a blessing. Oh, it is because it helped you tap into who Shaleen really is. 100%. It helped you to be to have to it like you almost got pushed into it. Yes, but then you didn't go, oh, I can't do this. You went, okay, I'm gonna figure this out. I'm gonna pick all of this up and I'm gonna figure it out because I have to. I think for me, he's taken the option away for me to be a stay-at-home mom. Yes. Now I have to figure this out, and so I can either be a puddle and not do anything with it, or I can just definitely pick myself up, pick up all the pieces, and then put it all back together the way that I want it to be put together now.

SPEAKER_02 50:12

You have the opportunity to raise your children the way that you want to, but you also have them give them the chance to see mom in a healthy light. I will always say, Your kids are only as healthy as you are.

unknown 50:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 50:26

And how important it was for me to take care of me. How important it is to, it's okay to step away from your kids and figure out you. I think sometimes as a mom, we we are so dependent on our kids that we don't even know who we are.

SPEAKER_03 50:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:39

So there's times I always tell people I'm I'm very grateful. I'm very grateful for the divorce. It was able to for me to to figure out who I was. It saved me from a life that I was not meant to have, truthfully. And I will forever, ever, ever be grateful for Ashley.

SPEAKER_01 50:55

And now you have that perspective.

SPEAKER_02 50:56

Oh yes.

SPEAKER_01 50:57

And despite- By the time it was like heavy, and you're like, What did I do how why did I get into this relationship? Why did I do all of these things only for it to just fall apart in front of me? Yeah. And there's nothing I can do to fix it.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

Well, to sit in the poor me phase, that's not fun. But it is important to allow yourself grace on bad days because you're gonna have it.

SPEAKER_01 51:19

And it's okay to feel all that and that pain and that suffering. Yes. Because those are those are the ways we learn lessons. 100%. Like no huge lesson is ever learned in easy times. No. The biggest and best lessons I've ever learned in my life are through the hardest times of my life. Oh, they are, and you're great. Yes. And I could I could have it I could have taken those hard times and make it been a drug drug addict or alcoholic as well. Like I could have easily gone that way.

SPEAKER_02 51:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:47

But that that's not what I wanted for myself. I didn't want to be a victim. I didn't want to suffer the rest of my life. I didn't want to like just let everybody else have a say in my life, and I don't get a say in my life. Yeah. I've chosen to have a say in my life. And I was I've been grateful. Like I've been married to my husband now for 26 years. And he's my person.

SPEAKER_02 52:07

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 52:08

And my first husband, not so much. But this one, yes, he's my person. And as we get older and our children are all adults now, it's just back to him. Like our daughter still lives at home with us, but she's does her thing, and it's just him and I. And it's like it's almost like this full circle moment. Like he was able to provide this life for us so that I could stay home and be with my children and homeschool my children. And now it's back to just him and I, and we get to just nourish that relationship.

SPEAKER_02 52:34

But do you think though that you would have appreciated him? No. Yeah. See, and that's it. Sorry, don't you interrupt, but it's a quick now for I truly believe that we go through things, and I honestly say, on a spiritual aspect, being LDS, it is the core of who I am. I say now though, these days, I care more who you are Monday through Saturday than the doors you walk through on Sunday.

SPEAKER_03 52:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 52:58

Because that's that is when you're true. Who you are. Yeah. Right? There's no the doors are just the ch the icing on the cake. But I also say, had we not gone through those trials, you wouldn't appreciate what you have now. It changes your perspective. If you allow it, if you allow it to change your perspective and learn from it. Oh my gosh, the amount of growth that you have in yourself and that you find within yourself that you're not alone. And that's so wanting to open up that page and just wanting women to feel like it's relatable, like I'm not the only person. I may have wanted to go slash your tires. I didn't. I didn't. But that's a normal thought when you're going through that moment, right? You're not going, you're batshit crazy, but you're not gonna actually do it. But you don't know what's normal, but you don't stay in that place. And I could sat there and I could be like, Are you kidding me? You abused me. We had to use a donor. I can't have a baby on my own. Like I had to go through a divorce. I had this 22-year-old outbeat me. I I could sit here and I could be rock bottom in the corner just hating my life. But instead, easily. Easily. Instead, anxiety is still something I battle with. But if you have the opportunity, it is a blessing that you were given these trials because you have an opportunity that possibly a higher being, however you want to believe in that, thinks enough of you to give you a second chance if you do it correctly. Yeah. If you learn from that and want to better yourself and learn from it. Because it wasn't like I was perfect, though. I had to learn where I fell within my marriage. Right. Because we all play a lot of people. We all play a part. That is something we all play a part. I wasn't perfect wow.

SPEAKER_01 54:44

Not to say that if you were a perfect wife, it would have been any different. Right. Because everyone gets agency, nothing. Everyone gets agency.

SPEAKER_02 54:50

But I see it as he thought enough of me or loved enough of me to think Shillen deserves better. Now did I have to go through a shitstorm to get there? Did I maybe middle finger up in the sky a few times? Did I drop on my knees and have some of the worst prayers? Hundred percent. And I'm sure those times he's like, here comes Schlene again. And I'm like, well, I'm gonna say it. So whether you want to listen or not, I'm gonna say it. But I felt like he thought enough of me. And in that moment, I thought, then I get to turn and I get to turn my life into something I want. Now, is it something that I ever dreamed of where I'd be at right now, 43 and still single and dating? Oh, that's a whole other topic at this age.

SPEAKER_01 55:30

I have I have no like I have the most empathy for that because I I told my husband, would you go? I better go with you because I did not want to be here alone.

SPEAKER_02 55:39

And I do not want to try to like that creates a whole other set of anxiety dealing with broken people. But you know what though, it's when you go through this. The one of the I say blessings all the time, you have the opportunity though to really change the way you see people, and that in itself is beyond rewarding because everybody is going through something, whether we see it, whether we don't, whether it's behind closed doors, where it's being played out in public, everybody has something. You're doing awesome, goes a long way. So allowing these trials and blessings shift your mind, everybody can come out on top. Everybody has the opportunity to come out on top.

SPEAKER_01 56:33

Taking those things that have happened. Like you said, like you get to choose which direction you want to take. For sure. Because we can always go, this is easier. Oh, you can. This is harder, but I kind of like what it looks like over there better than over there. Right. What am I ready for? You know, because sometimes you can start to go this way and you're like, actually, no, I'm gonna run around and go back this way. But sometimes that path looks like that.

SPEAKER_02 56:54

Yeah. And then that that's the thing. Or sometimes you get to the end over here and you're like, actually. Hard pass. Go back. Let's return. Let's do some. But that's okay. Yeah. Like I've learned that's part of the process. Yes. Like, it's okay to choose you. It's okay to do you turn halfway down that journey if that's not for you.

SPEAKER_01 57:14

Yeah. And also, you you said a bunch of things about how you like felt a certain way, but you would dismiss it. And we talked about that being an intuition. If everybody could get in touch with their intuition. Oh my gosh. And then when it comes up, just listen. For sure. Just listen. And I'll tell you, I've learned because my I was I'm so blessed that my mom taught me from a young age that your intuition is there for a reason and you better listen to it, right? It sure is. So I I feel so blessed that I've known that for so long, but I'm learning as I've gotten older that not a lot of people rely on their intuition the way that I do. Right. Yes. Mine is super loud. Super loud. Really? Like the second it speaks, I'm like, okay, let's go. Like we're doing it. Girls out. Yes. I'm not like, huh. I wonder if I should listen. I just listen. Go. If I get a bad vibe about somebody, the second I meet them, it's real. I don't need proof. Yeah. I don't need to know why this person is making me feel this way. I that's the tr all the truth I need is that. Boundaries are okay. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 58:20

Boundaries are okay. They're essential. Oh my gosh. And we're not, I I don't say we're for me, I wasn't taught boundaries. And that was now at my age, and I tell my daughter this, you will always respect people. Yeah. But you create a boundary on those that you don't feel good around. But you will be respectful. But boundaries are crucial to your mental health. And it's okay. It is whether it's family, whether it's your neighbor, I don't care who it is. Like it's okay to have a boundary.

SPEAKER_01 58:55

Yeah, and no is a no is a a perfectly great per word for use. I know how to use it.

SPEAKER_02 59:01

No is a good word.

SPEAKER_01 59:02

And you're it's okay to say no, and for other people not to like your no. That's okay. It's totally okay.

SPEAKER_02 59:09

I am not for everybody, and everybody is not for me, and that's okay. Yeah. And I like it that way. Throughout all of this, I'm comfortable with who I am. I'm comfortable where I'm at spirituality-wise, I'm comfortable where I'm at as a mom, as a single woman. I'm comfortable where I stand with all of my choices. I can look back, and in my entire story, I can look back and say, I have zero regrets. Now, are there things I would have maybe done differently? But I wouldn't take back stepping outside of that black and white, how I was raised or living, going with a donor.

SPEAKER_00 59:50

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:50

Stepping up for myself and getting a divorce, sticking up with legal for six years and protecting my children. Like what I have to do to get through anxiety, boundaries I've had to step, had to create. I don't I can lay my head down at night, and that is something I've always said of my daughter and my children. When you can lay your head down and sleep at night, you're doing a good thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:10

And you're winning it. But if you keep yourself by your own choices and your choices have a power, the effect. I mean, your choices have a powerful effect on people, negative and positive, and we talk a lot about that too. Like think twice before you make because the long-term consequences are much greater than what you're seeing in that moment.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:30

Yeah. And so I think I because I often it's interesting, some of the things you say just feel so close, hit so close to home because I had this discussion with my husband a little while ago where we were just talking about life, and he knows what I went through before I met him. And I I we were talking about regrets, and I said, I don't have regrets because the person that I am today is the result of every good and bad life experience that I've had.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:58

But my connection to God is so deep because of my childhood. It's very similar to you, like how I was raised and the relationship that I was I was encouraged to create with my heavenly father. Yes. Is one of the relationships that's the closest in my heart. Like I will always default to asking him when I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:23

And I've never been steered wrong. Imagine that. But also the comfort that I've received in the darkest times of my life. I can never deny where that came from. And without like when people tell me they don't believe in God or they don't understand religion or they don't or they're not spiritual or whatever it is, a little piece in my heart wants to share with them what I know to be true for me. Right. Because I I would hope that everybody at some point in their life can feel the peace and the love I feel for myself.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:58

For themselves. And it's interesting because somewhere along the way I was, you know, I I learned or I I understood that I should be selfless and not selfish.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:13

But I think it was to the point where I always put myself last for a long time because I'm supposed to serve other people and I'm supposed to show up for other people and I'm supposed to do these things that make other people happy. And I'm supposed to be kind and I'm supposed to be loving. But I somewhere along the way I lost myself in all that. But were you happy in that moment? No. Because it was or or sometimes I would be happy because I, you know, I always felt good serving other people. But I wasn't taking care of myself all the time. And then I got into a really messy relationship as well. And I let somebody do things to me that never should have been done.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:50

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:51

But I didn't know better. Like I was a little naive when I went in. I was 19 when I got married. So I was a baby. I look at my 19-year-old son down here.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:58

Oh my goodness, I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:01

It's okay that you have a girlfriend. You know? But but I look back and I just I'm so grateful for the lessons that I learned through it all. Because I remember you said something earlier about dating too soon after or whatever, or making same mistakes again. And after I got divorced, after I got divorced, I started dating somebody right away, and I got pregnant, and I wasn't married, and I wasn't in the right space to be a parent or a mother. And so I chose to place my daughter for adoption, which at the time was the hardest thing I had ever done in my life because all I wanted to be growing up was a mother. But here I am, divorced at 21 years old and pregnant because of choices that I had made. But I wanted to start then and there to make better choices. And I knew the best choice was that she couldn't should go and live with a mother and father who had a stable home that would love her. And I found a couple that couldn't have children, they they were infertile as well, and they couldn't have babies. And so I felt so proud to be the mother of this beautiful child that I could give to a loving mother and father that just wanted to have babies so much and they couldn't. And even though it's the hardest thing I've ever done, and ever since then, there's some things that have happened that have made it a little more difficult. I still know that that baby is where she's supposed to be.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:33

And deep down you are her mother.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:35

And I yeah, and there will be a day when I get to be reunited with her. And I I look forward to that day. But shortly after that, I started dating another person and I was like, nope, you're not right. And another one, and nope, you're not right. And that's after those two relationships where I was like, what are you doing? It's the same thing again. They're repeating the same. I decided I'm gonna just focus on me. I'm just gonna work on me. I need to love myself because something's going on with me that I don't love myself enough to find the right or attract the right or be with the right person that that deserves me in those moments, though, were you feeling like you were trying to fill a void because of did you ever find out the why of why you were doing because I love to hear people's whys.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:25

Nobody just wakes up wanting to be a certain way. There's a why behind people's decisions and choices in life.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:31

I I think I wanted to be loved so bad. Okay. And it's interesting because I had a very loving home growing up. Yeah. My father, I've I was very close to my father to the day that he died. Like there was never anything in my life with my dad that made me like looking for, you know, daddy. Which, like, no daddy issues that like people say. It was nothing like that. It was just I think I didn't realize what was out there.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:56

And I kind of my personality kind of.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:00

likes to learn things the hard way sometimes yeah which is okay it's okay because then when I do it well no when I do it I'm like well that's stupid why did I do that or else I'm like man I really like that probably shouldn't do that again but yeah I agree I'm with that type of personality so so I might have to learn the hard way but I learned but you learn so I don't just keep doing the same thing for 16 years and go why is my life so messy I'm I I'm grateful that even though I had to learn it the hard way I learned it quick the hard way. And that's but you allowed yourself to learn. Yes. That's the thing that I admire about people is when they take the time or they want to learn or they're finding out why they're doing what they're doing so that they can change and make themselves better. Yes. So they don't stay in that rut. And we talk about not we but I talk about repeating the cycle like break the damn cycle.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:49

Yeah like be the cycle breaker it drives be the because there's generational stuff too that pulls us back. And be the one that breaks those bands, those bonds, whatever speak up it's okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:01

Yeah it is okay I had I had a family member reach out a couple months ago I'm gonna share this and he DM'd me it was an older family member and he says Shaleen I understand I know what you're going through it happened to me by an uncle and I was like are you kidding me so what happened to you happened to your child and you watched your nieces nobody says anything. That's what I'm talking about is breaking that damn cycle like that could have been stopped. I don't understand why we are scared to stand up and to speak out against things that are not right.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:52

That everybody knows is that it's not like there's some people are like well it's not that bad. Nobody says that about that about that.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:00

And that's what I was amazed at how many people would DM me that in itself was the most rewarding sad but most rewarding thing that they were able to within this page create a safe place and they would DM me and tell me things that they had gone through similar situations. How many women I felt like okay God gave me these trials I've experienced everything besides death and even then you feel like you've experienced and this is this is honestly no disrespect to anybody because I couldn't imagine losing a loved one but when you go through a divorce there's some sort of feelings of or similarities to death because they're alive but that is not the person you marry and you are mourning this person. Yes. And going through that but I'm I'm thinking like how many women go through abuse how many women go through and men into I don't mean to just narrow it down but how many women go through abuse, infertility, affairs, domestic violence, anxiety, mental health like where why are we not talking about it?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:59

Not that we should normalize like buttons But why is she a victim because you see her being crazy but she's responding or has that PTSD moment because of all of this other stuff that nobody knows about because we don't know what happens when we're yes exactly or you get like a snippet of their life and you think you know everything but as somebody who's survived abuse when sometimes when you see these things I'm just talking about something publicly that I've seen lately and you see these things makes you like I see what it is. Yes. I know what it is. If you've been through you know yes and I can identify what it is but to hear the perspective of all these different people and how they just are completely misunderstood about what's really happening behind closed doors to this person my heart wants to go give her a big hug, take her home and help her heal. Right? Like because that's where I'm at I see the potential of this beautiful woman who's just in a very dark scary place right now. Exactly and I know that she's hurting and I oh I can't even imagine what she's going through with her life played out.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:04

And it's public. It's so public which makes it so much harder I can be negative and it's her and I'm like but when you've been through it and I say this but the lens is different. The narcissism is beyond real and I still deal with it to this day and they drive you if you allow them if you allow them but they can it took me a number of years to see holy shit that is like I because I would just want to fight right like I'm gonna fight you you're not gonna like control this narrative you're not going to control or and the picture they paint of you is unreal. And so you're out there trying to fight for yourself scraping at the barrel. But at the end of the day I'm just like I can't care about this narrative. I I am comfortable with who I am the decisions I've made but they don't see what that does to you. Yeah. What that narc when you're in a dark place yourself it takes you to a place and you do some not things that you're proud of.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:07

Yeah and you can respond like your nervous system will respond because of the the because after years of that cycle of abuse you're they've retrained your nervous system from normal reactions to somebody saying something or doing something to this visceral deep like almost psychotic reaction exactly to what just happened to you because your nervous system has been trained to respond this way because this person will always do this and then this is what's coming next. So your nervous system learns and when this is happening you already are on to this reaction because that's how you've been programmed.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:43

So that's one thing that some people don't understand is they're like oh my gosh you overthink everything I'm like when you deal with narcissism you better have A through Z mapped out before you walked in that door because you don't know what's going to be thrown at you. So my mind I got to make sure that I am safe in all spots that could possibly get thrown so that I can react so I don't get blindsided. Yeah. And you you become trained that way and then when you then you add mental health on top of that anxiety anxiety unfortunately becomes a normal and then when you start to get to a good place and you don't have anxiety that almost gives you more anxiety because you're like I don't feel like myself anymore because I'm so used to that self that this self feels uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:21

It feels weird it feels like it's it's wrong. It it's like it's you love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:26

But then I'm like I don't feel I where's my anxiety you're waiting for anything to be thrown at you you're constantly making sure you're on edge. And so that's the beauty when you start seeing the healing process the anxiety does I mean it still comes and goes but the anxiety starts to go down the way you start looking at others the way you start reacting within your own home your choices everything and it really becomes such a beautiful moment and a journey that you look back and who I was as a little girl and I said this I once was a little girl that sat in my bed in a dark room just scared as hell for that door to open no now no longer that little girl but become a woman to now that's not afraid to stand up and to go shut the door that no longer serves me purpose. Yes put a bookcase in front of it. No matter who is behind that door no though. Yeah and I've learned to and I always tell people Mel Robbins total respect for lover lover lover. But she's had that let them theory and I always say now I'm like and that's okay theory like I always tell myself that's okay like everybody has their own perspective of things and it's okay to figure out what works for you as long as it's healthy and respectful and there's certain things I do believe along the way.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:46

But it's okay to take care of you it's okay to set boundaries it's okay to find you it's okay do what's best for you at the end of the day take care of you and do not stay in that sad that sad miserable bitter state. I don't know if you remember the show my 600 pound life I'm not gonna lie I became obsessed with it. I was so intrigued I've actually watched every episode I was like tell me what Jeremy's eating today right fascinating because it's the same kind of thing it's but still learn their why yes it broke my heart because if you sat there and you watched that show and they started talking and you learned why they are the way that they are now it all started when they were child when they were children excuse me as a child going through their parents' divorce they were abused and they allowed and my heart just broke from them because they allowed to stay in that mode and it just took over their life. Yeah. And then it looks I look at people and it breaks my heart because if I could just take everybody that's gone through something and give them the biggest hug and be like you can do this. Yes you have the opportunity to turn this around and make this a beautiful situation.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:56

That doesn't mean you're gonna have not have bad days anymore because you're going to yeah and that's okay to cry for a couple sometimes because pick yourself up and move back on and go smile.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:05

It's not worth being in that spot anymore.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:07

No.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:07

Everybody's battling something.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:09

And once you start down that healing path and it starts to feel okay to feel good again yeah and you and like you don't have to worry that there's no other shoes to drop. Oh you're safe and it's okay to feel safe. Yes and that's a good thing. Yeah yeah it it's something that I think people again people who've never been through trauma or been through all of these things don't understand how foreign safety feels when you've been trained to to feel unsafe yes and be ready for the you be ready because it's gonna come it's gonna come you feel really good right now okay you know what happens after this you know you know that something here and like so and you you but you take where you're at now for me I protect my peace at all costs. Yes yes my peace is my next to my kids a number one priority yes because when you do without peace yes once you find it again you're like I love y'all but no because I'm I'm on my peace journey right now. And if you want to be peaceful with me yes come right along but if you're gonna disrupt that here's that boundary you stay over there when you when you're in a peaceful phase we can maybe go to coffee or something or go to lunch or something. But when you're chaotic in your life you can just go ahead and keep that over there because like in my home I always tell my kids I'm like this is a peaceful yes serene place. Like I get you're gonna we're gonna have disagreements and stuff. Right. But let's work through it and then let's move on because we can we can do that quickly. You don't have to have this festering or gonna make you pay period before somebody can be forgiven. Right. You can forgive them right away and work together and move forward. And guess what? I can give you grace if you make mistakes still because that's okay because we all do. I do as long as I feel like you're seeing improvement. Right. That's key there's effort for you to to learn and grow because we all learn and grow, especially me. Like I just said the hardest way has to be my lesson. Yes and that's okay. Fortunately as I'm getting older I'm I'm getting better at learning it like why does it take us until we're like so old well I'll be 50 in June and I feel like I know what I want to be when I grow up right I'm like 43 let's do this.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:24

But no it is the funny thing and I was telling her earlier you know what's interesting is that talking earlier how far kindness goes but yet how hard it is still to teach as adults to other adults. Yeah it is the most basic concept in life that kindness goes afar goes a long way. But yet it's some of the hardest things that people still cannot grasp.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:48

Yeah and I don't I'm I'm with you I don't understand it because for me I feel like it's easier for me to be kind than for me to be rude or for me to not not be empathetic or to not be sympathetic or to not at least try to see where you're coming from.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:03

I am on a lifelong pursuit to understand why people do what they do and what why are you stuck? What can how can I figure out why you're stuck so I can help you be unstuck.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:14

How can we move forward from that stuck pet yes because being stuck is just it's not it.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:20

It's just not it.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:21

It's miserable yeah it's miserable to be in that place in your life of just no growth growth is so important and stepping outside your comfort zone like we were in my hometown for eight years able to get back on our feet and when it all went down it was here in St. George and then two years ago I thought we gotta move like I never had intentions of moving back to my hometown. It was a phenomenal place for us to be at the time the community was amazing rallied around me and my kids really protected us kept us safe helped you get there to that healed place. But I knew if I stayed there I'd probably still be kicking it with my sister and brother in law right like the third will nobody like but there's no there was no growth. Yeah. And to me there's n life is about growing learning having experiences good and bad but learning from them taking the best from them learning from the worst part of it and moving forward.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:15

Yeah. And then trying to teach the people that we love around us those lessons so they don't have to learn it the way that we did isn't that the truth yeah and it's really hard to watch your children make choices and make mistakes that you know are gonna lead them to a place of sadness and hurt. The hardest thing that I do is letting my children make choices that I just want to control. I think so I don't have to feel that hard and get paid. Because you know the outcome but I also know by allowing them to go through the process it gives them that perspective that they can make that decision for themselves eventually like down the road they can decide you know what this doesn't feel good this doesn't feel right I want something different and then to know that because I allowed them that space and it was still held space for them to be loved that when they want to come home and feel that love and peace that I've created for them. Yeah again and have a place a soft place to land to heal like you had and like I was afforded with by my family, my parents that's gonna help them to be the most amazing person in the long run. So I have to allow it to happen.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:32

I just think like this must be what Henry Father feels like you know it's interesting I've I've thought of that often like I remember going on the running the marathon a couple years ago my dad walks up I I love my dad we we we might not see eye to eye on things he's very religious and I totally respect that about him and so he'll always make jokes and so we joke about it but it's learned about respect where each other's at right in life. But he walked me to the bus right 4 30 in the morning and I hugged him got on this bus and took off to the starting point. In my mind I thought man this must be I wonder if this is kind of what Heavenly Father as he walked us as you know as we left heaven gives us a hug and says best of luck and we go to that starting point right you start that marathon and you're like I feel great. Mile eight comes around you hit the hill and you're like oh shit like I might have to actually and I might have to walk or I want to turn around or I want to be like hey to the golf cart guy pick me up right but you're you're struggling and then you find your pace again right and then you're at mile 22 limping over wanting Benge rubbed all over you by who cares? I don't know who you are just rub me down. And at mile 22 my dad pops up and he runs about a half a mile with me is like don't stop and then you see the finish line and you cross that and you're like I did it so I picture that a lot about life and with Heavenly Father like he drops us off the best of luck I'm here for you I'm here for you but you're gonna struggle you're gonna want to stop you're gonna have some dark thoughts you're gonna kick ass at times but I promise you you keep going and I will be there for you at that finish line and there's gonna be times I'm gonna see you and I'm gonna be there for you. But I promise you if you get to that finish line it's gonna be oh so worth it and that's where I just think that this journey in life that we all get to experience is incredible if we allow it to make to allow it to make us become who we are honestly meant to be as opposed to being the victim of what we were given. Yes yes and so I love I love what you guys stand on.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:05

I love your platform I love what you are doing if I could scream from the rooftops guys you can do this that's all you got this right I know I'm like single moms keep it up like people you've got this opportunity change your perspective perspective is everything and growth is so beautiful it can be super messy and ugly but once you get on the other side and you start to come around that corner and you start to see like exactly that's what my life could look like. Right it gets exciting and then when you can find your people along the way oh my goodness and you can be like look look see look we're gonna go let's go let's go together like and people you wouldn't even imagine that's the beautiful thing that I don't think we understand.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:49

If I look back and there was people put in my life at that time to get me through are we even in contact anymore? No but at that time I was blessed with that person. Yes but the people I've met along the way has been an amazing experience in itself. So people that we don't even think that are there I was kept doing giveaways there yes are put there to help us get through to help us.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:11

Exactly because he's like oh you need each other yes and then before we know it we're like oh I needed her. Right?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:18

But then they're gone. They had done their job and it was time to say goodbye. Yes and you move forward until you needed the next person. And that was something I tried to do a giveaway with every just every topic that I talked about and what people didn't see was every one of those giveaways was donated. There are so many people that we don't even know that have our back that want to help. And they do it in a quiet way right but the amount of people you have cheering and rooting for you along the way is incredible.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:50

I remember my daughter was born 16 weeks premature. Oh my goodness so while I was still pregnant with her I had to go live at the hospital because I kept going into labor.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:01

I remember my ward fasted and prayed did a fast and prayer for me. Yeah because everyone was concerned because I I didn't know if I was gonna have this baby or not. I shortly after I had a blessing and I knew she was going to be okay but I just didn't know what that looked like at the time and it was very very like up in the air. Yeah. I I like the baby's getting big enough that she's almost viable but she's still super super tiny right there. So it was just like it was a it was a kind of an uncertain time for me and I remember feeling the power of those prayers from the people in my church that chose to pray for me. And I don't know all of their names and I don't even know who prayed for me but I felt that strength and that power and that was something that I I could never deny because it was almost palpable. Like I can almost like like grab it. It was so real it felt so like I just felt so wrapped up in warmth and love in the in those moments when I knew that that was happening for me. And I'm grateful that somebody told me that they were praying for me because I felt something and I didn't know what it was somebody kind of visited me and told me what that feeling was. Because I'm like I just feel like everything's I feel peace. Yes here I am laying in a hospital bed connected to monitors and taking all like getting all this medication so that this baby stays inside of my body while I'm bleeding and I it it was just like I so uncertain but in those in that moment I knew I knew that this beautiful baby was going to be a part of my life and now she's turning 22 in June and she's our miracle and life hasn't been easy for her all the time and she has her own struggles sometimes too but being able to like have this beautiful little baby and because of course in your head you're like I'm gonna go full term and it's gonna be perfect.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:52

I'm gonna be like the prettiest pregnant lady and I'm gonna walk out of the hospital in a size zero genes and we're gonna kill this as being a mom. And yeah yeah I know I keep trying but in my head I'm having so much fun. I know gosh it's been almost too but because of that you probably want to pay it forward and help others in their darkest times.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:16

Yeah and because you feel going through that and and having so much love and support through that has has helped me to understand like I'm never alone. There's always someone there for me. 100% thank you so much for being here and sharing your story and your perspective thank you and such a blessing encouraging women to heal and to be better because that's our mission and goal too is just to just to try and inspire somebody to take that first step towards healing.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:46

So important you guys have an amazing platform so thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:48

Thank you so much thank you all for watching and God bless