EP37: Veteran Tim Leavitt on Combat, TBI, Brotherhood, and Finding Purpose After War

Veteran Tim Leavitt describes joining the Army National Guard at 17 while in foster care, deploying to Iraq at 18 as artillery, leaving in 2008, then reenlisting in 2009 as a combat engineer and completing two Afghanistan route-clearance deployments. He recounts the realities of combat versus movies, including difficulty seeing shooters, and details a Kunar Province 360 ambush where radio intercepts warned of an attack, RPGs disabled his vehicle, his squad leader was badly wounded, and an RPG blast injured Leavitt with shrapnel and contributed to a TBI; he later suffered another blast and head injury when overrun. He discusses hospital recovery, being pushed toward separation, loss of military brotherhood, struggles transitioning to college, ongoing recovery and coping, and finding purpose through Ironman races, the Baja 1000, and delivering vetted humanitarian aid to Ukrainian villages.

00:00 RPG Ambush Flashback
00:30 Joining at Seventeen
02:55 First Iraq Deployment Reality
04:23 Leaving and Reenlisting
06:19 Route Clearance Mindset
14:23 Combat Myths vs Reality
17:12 Kunar Valley Injury
22:14 TBI and Recovery
25:56 Volunteering to Return
30:09 Final Deployment Fallout
32:29 Ironman After War
34:10 Learning to Swim for Ironman
35:00 Half Ironman Surprise
36:26 Baja 1000 Inspiration
37:12 First Trip to Ukraine
39:14 Aid Runs with Andre
42:14 War’s Other Side
47:29 What Recovery Means
52:38 Losing the Brotherhood
55:34 Almost Going AWOL
59:10 Finding Purpose After Service
01:05:12 Advice for Lonely Veterans
01:06:59 Ongoing Work and Family
01:08:00 Purpose Through Fatherhood
01:09:32 Protective Instincts Kick In
01:11:50 Boundaries Build Safe Kids
01:13:56 Letting Kids Own Choices
01:17:37 Coping With Bad Days
01:21:02 Anxiety Story Served Papers
01:23:49 Living With TBI Changes
01:28:36 Lessons I Wish I Knew
01:32:30 Who Tim Is Now
01:37:27 Adventure Mindset Reframed
01:39:25 Closing Thanks And Farewell

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey, we're gonna get attacked. I had turned actually turned on my camera and I said, Hey, Sergeant Jones, I said, How's it feel? We're gonna die. And you know, I was just being sarcastic. I'm like, we're gonna die soon. And he slapped the camera out of my hand and uh said, Turn that crap off. So I I could see where one of the guys was shooting. So I I got out and started shooting at at that guy, but I didn't see another guy. And that's when he shot an RPG at me and it hit right in front of me and knocked me out the berm and uh put shrapnel in my face neck inside.

SPEAKER_03 0:30

Today we have with us Tim Levitt. And Tim Levitt is a veteran and he has an amazing story that he's gonna share with us today. So I know that you joined the army at 17. What was going on in your life when you were 17 that made joining the army like the thing you wanted to do?

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Uh I was in foster care at the time, and um I met a recruiter and he said, Hey, you could go to boot camp, you know, but in between your junior and senior year. And that just sounded exciting to me. I I always thought that I wanted to join the military, but I didn't know what it was or what I was getting into. And uh so I got signed off to go to boot camp, and I went to boot camp and came back as a senior and then found out I joined the National Guard, it's part of the army, and then found out that the unit that I was supposed to be assigned to was going to Iraq, and so I did what I could, and I graduated early and went back to my training during my senior year so I could uh deploy with him to Iraq. And then I went so I graduated high school early in in uh February and then went back to my training. Uh and uh I graduated my military training two days before high school uh graduation, came back, graduated with my class, and then a month later I was at uh uh training getting ready to go to Iraq.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

So you started in the National Guard?

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Yep, started in the National Guard in high school. Um, do you know how all that works? Like no, I don't the National Guard is just a state. It's run by the state, but it's part of the army.

unknown 2:12

Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

And so then I uh I went to Iraq and I was in Iraq for a year, and I did uh I was a uh cannon crew member, so I did artillery with a local unit here, and then um I came home, got out of the army, and I just kind of worked odd jobs for a while. And then in 2009, I decided to join the army again, and so I joined as uh combat engineer and uh I deployed two more times to Afghanistan as uh route clearance, and I did route clearance for two deployments. That's where you look for IEDs and uh ambushes, and then I got out of the army in 2015.

SPEAKER_03 2:54

So let's go back to the first time you got deployed. You what, you were like 18?

SPEAKER_01 2:59

I was 18, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:00

So you're 18 years old. Was it scary to go like to a whole new place you'd never even experienced before?

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Maybe I was scared. I would think I was too naive to understand what was going on. I mean, I I think I was nervous, but I think when you're that when I was I don't think I was scared, I think I was naive.

SPEAKER_03 3:27

So then so what did you know about war before you got there?

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Nothing. Only what I've seen like in the movies and stuff. So I'm like, that's I remember, you know, I was expecting, you know, to get shot at every day and be in these big firefights, and um obviously it was nothing like that.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

So what was it like?

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Oh, I would say that like the first portion of it was extremely boring. There was moments where it was uh I remember I was on like a like a gate uh when I first got there, and some rockets came in and landed and blew up, and I was so excited. I remember I would just sit in there like I was like, man, this is can you believe that? And the guy that was with me pulled me down because I was too dumb to you know take care of myself. I was just watching, I couldn't believe it. I was like, like finally it's happening. I and it I I was just dumb.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Yeah. Nice, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:23

So you're in the military or you're in the National Guard Guard. And then you leave in 2008, you said?

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Uh yeah, I got out in 2008, and then I joined again a year.

SPEAKER_03 4:35

What made you get out in 2008? Like what was that decision like?

SPEAKER_01 4:39

I hated going to drill.

SPEAKER_03 4:41

Explain drill test.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Um, it's where you go once a month and uh you just you do your training and I just like a mini boot camp every month? No, it's like no. It's you go once a month and you do train it's some sort of training.

unknown 4:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 4:59

Just military training.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Yeah, military training, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:03

Then you are out for a year, and then you were like yeah, well, it was about two years, about two years. Did you go, I miss it, I want to get back in, or or what was that decision like?

SPEAKER_01 5:12

Um I was just I think I was at a truck stop up in Washington State, and there was a recruiter, and then I just started talking to him, you know, about Iraq and Afghanistan, and then from one thing led to another, he's like, Well, you gotta get back in. And I got thinking about it, I was like, Well, there was the economy had crashed, you know, so I was like, Oh, maybe I'll I'll do it. But I I told him I was like, well, I don't want to be like a cook or something, I want to do something else. And that's kind of how I ended up back in the armies.

SPEAKER_03 5:42

So you come back in, and then it's like, well, this is what we're gonna have you do out in Afghanistan. How how long before, like when you rejoined, how long before you were deployed again?

SPEAKER_01 5:52

I think I joined again in April, and um I joined in April, and then I had trained like a bunch of schools, and so from April till about October, I was in just different schools that they send you to, like specialized schools, and then we left in November.

SPEAKER_03 6:13

And then you went is that when you went to uh the Kunar province?

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Yeah, Kunar province, Afghanistan, and then we did route clearance there.

SPEAKER_03 6:22

What was that job like?

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Um, it was I don't know, that's a loaded question. Stressful?

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Um it was it was I think it's stressful now thinking about it. And it it gave me some purpose and it was it was funny. I remember when I was on my first deployment, I would see the route clearance guys leave the base, and then they would always come back in, and their vehicles were all shut up and blown up and all that sort of thing. And it's like, man, those guys are you know, as a kid, you're like, you won't you're like those guys are yeah, they're fighting.

SPEAKER_03 7:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

And little did I know that unit that I kept seeing, that was the unit that I went to Afghanistan with. And I didn't put two and two together until part way through the training that there was a patch that you that we'd wear, and one of the guys is like, hey, where'd you get that patch? And I said, Oh, I got that in Iraq, in this area, in Ramadi is what it's called. And uh he's like, Well, I was in Ramadi. When were you there? And I said, Oh, I was here at this time. So it was kind of cool to finally connect the dots, but by then it'd been three years, and you know, the equipment had changed. Because I remember specifically, you know, one of the it's called a husky. A husky pulled out of the gate, and uh it came back in, it was just in pieces. And they're it's like a motorized, it's uh it's a single person vehicle, and it's got panels that come down and it's and it scans the the road for IEDs. And uh it's it's designed to take a hit, if you will. But I remember like as soon as you know we started talking, he's like, Yeah, and he's like, This is what we're gonna be doing. I was like, I went back and I showed him some of the pictures. He's like, Yeah, he's like, that's us. It was kind of cool to see. Oh man.

SPEAKER_03 8:14

Back when you first saw them, you know, before you're deployed with them now, back in your first deployment with them, did you look at them and go, Oh, I want to do that someday?

SPEAKER_01 8:23

Yeah, there's that. I I would there's this sounds really twisted, but you want to you want to go out and see, you know, I think part of it's you want to t test yourself to see what it's what it's like.

SPEAKER_03 8:39

Yeah, well, it would be part of the action too.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Yeah, it'd be part of it. It's it's like you you want to you want to see what it's like.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

And so, yeah, I got a little tiny taste of it in Iraq, and I was like, uh, it was I didn't I didn't feel how I thought I was gonna feel, and I think that's maybe why I went back.

SPEAKER_03 9:03

Because you felt like you didn't fulfill your purpose, maybe? Yeah. There was more for you there that you wanted to do.

SPEAKER_01 9:07

Well, there's somebody else out doing the work, and it's not that we didn't do our work, but I I feel like that that wasn't really m my place.

SPEAKER_03 9:16

You felt like there was more from you that you could contribute in the military.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

In a in a different maybe. I think I wanted to experience it. Yeah. There was an experience that I that it didn't meet my expectation.

SPEAKER_03 9:30

That makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

And so to see these guys go out and actually, you know, you would hear over the radio of them in firefights and that sort of thing, you're like, man, I wonder what that'd be like to experience that.

SPEAKER_03 9:42

So then you're out there and you're finding IEDs, like what does that look like on a day-to-day basis? Like what what are the emotions or the feelings, or are you just kind of numb to that because you're just doing a job? Like, what did that look like for you when you were out every day having to make sure everybody else didn't get blown up, but you might be the one that is?

SPEAKER_01 10:06

Um I think I felt at first I I felt really excited and then I I think it I started to feel numb. And I didn't realize it until I came home on leave and what when I was home on my two weeks leave um then I realized I was like, man, I want to go back. And you would you would think it was the opposite of hey, I want to go home. You're super excited to come home. But um when I was home, all I could think about is what was going on back there.

SPEAKER_03 10:44

So do you think a little bit of is it like are you an adrenaline junkie?

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Uh I mean, yeah, I I like the feeling of it's do you think that contributed to it?

SPEAKER_03 10:54

Because I'm trying to I'm trying to get our audience to understand like what your state of mind was when you were out there doing such dangerous work. Like what would what like you would roll out in the morning, how did you feel a certain way?

SPEAKER_01 11:07

You just think you're going to die, I think. You accept that you're going to die. And it sounds morbid, but in the job. It's not it's very unhealthy, I think, but you just accept you're going to die. And it's not I mean, because have you have you ever seen an ID like blow up on a vehicle? You ever seen any videos in movies? Yeah. So you it's not like the movies at all, like you don't even know what's happened. All of a sudden there's just dust and debris, and it's so fast you you don't know what happens, and so um you just think sorry, what was the question? I lost my trend.

SPEAKER_03 11:49

No, it's okay. It's I just I'm trying to get the audience to understand like what it kind of felt like for you to go out every day, and you said you feel like you're gonna die every day, which it does kind of sound morbid, but it's also like probably something real that you it's almost like a real state you put your mind in so you can get the job done without thinking.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

It's a very good feeling in a sense to think that all you have to do is stay alive. You're not worried about bills, you're not worried about politics, you're not worried about anything. It's a very simple life, and I think that's one of the things that for me that made it so addicting is your whole job is to just do your job, you're not worried about anything else, is just doing your job. No bills, no what's going on at home, it's just you're there with your friends, and most of them, most most of the guys I really uh loved. And there's a couple of guys where I didn't, I didn't like them one bit. But um it's a very good feeling.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

So like brothers, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Your brother's going out to make sure everybody else is safe, and you might die along the way, but it, you know, but you yeah, and it's cheesy, but you know they do the same thing for you, and then when you would see things happen where you're like, Yeah, these guys are putting the will for themselves over everybody else, that's a good feeling. Then you come back here, it's like, hey, I need help with something. And you know, we as a society we're like, oh, I'm too busy, you know, or uh yeah, I got this going on. Like, there's no excuses. Like, hey, can you help me? And a lot of times, you know, somebody will just hop in and help. Because if everybody's helping, that's good for the group. Yeah, you know, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 13:28

Very much community, because I think community is very important, not just in the military, which the military's done it right, they've really helped you guys to create this brotherhood. Because I think it's kind of like I think about it with sports too. Like my boys played rugby, and it's a very like you have to rely on your team, nobody can do it alone, kind of thing. And so it sounds like that's kind of what the military is, too, you know? Yeah, and I think that that's important in life. Like you're saying you come home and then it's harder to find that brotherhood or that community. Like that's kind of something that we are trying to create here with Irene Cares because we think it's so important, whatever that looks like for each individual, I think community is where we really can come together and make a big change and a big difference in the world and even in our own lives.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

But um so let's talk about um combat, I think.

SPEAKER_03 14:23

So in combat, what is it that people get wrong? Like people have you know, we all have our opinion of what it looks like because of the movies, right? That's most of us that's our only exposure to war, which is also not the same as war, like you said. But um, what do people get wrong? Like what does the new the movies and TV get wrong about combat?

SPEAKER_00 14:52

I would say pretty much everything. Everything.

SPEAKER_01 14:55

Yeah, I I d I don't I don't know. I think you have to experience it to understand it.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

And I I I feel like I think the emotions maybe is because they always make it out to be some heroic thing, you know, and uh it's not.

SPEAKER_03 15:14

It's there's nothing uh you guys aren't out there like we're heroes, you're out there just doing your job.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

Or that we care, you know, this not that I don't love America, but that we care about what our politicians we don't care about any of that stuff. Like I can't remember a time that politics was brought up because nobody cared. That's we you don't care about it. It doesn't matter. You're so far removed from from anything that uh you're on a whole nother planet, pretty much, you know. So I would does that answer the question.

SPEAKER_03 15:45

Yeah, yeah. So what are some things that you experienced that you know, movies, TV, whatever had you thought it looked like this, but then you actually go there and you experience it? What was one of the biggest differences for you?

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Like what was the difference?

SPEAKER_03 16:01

What was the biggest thing that was like, oh, I thought it was this, but it's really this? Like what was the biggest thing that was different than movies and TV?

SPEAKER_01 16:08

I feel like shooting when people are shooting at you, it's not like in the movies where they stand up and you can see them. Like a lot of times you can't even see where they're shooting at you.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

Or a lot of times you're shooting and you you have a general idea, but it I mean, people aren't just gonna stand up and be like, here I am, I'm gonna shoot at you. They're gonna hide. I mean, every once in a while you'll see some. I think the entire time I was over there, I only saw four four four guys shooting at us, like where I was like, that is somebody that I can that I can physically see with my hands. Oh, I would see, you know, areas where you're like, yep, they're in that that fixed fighting position. You can see their muzzle flash and dirt coming up from when they're shooting, but there was only four times, you know, the entire deployment that I was able to actually see with my eyes, hey, that is somebody that I can see.

SPEAKER_03 17:01

Yeah. Most of the time they're so hidden that you don't even know where they're gonna be able to do.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Yeah, you're just they're behind rocks or trees or zipping bullets coming at you.

SPEAKER_03 17:12

So your second deployment, when you rejoined the army, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:18

Um, you got injured.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

Yeah, I got hit.

SPEAKER_03 17:21

So explain that scenario to us.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

Um, well, we were doing a route clearance mission going out and clearing, and we had dismounts, which are guys on foot. Um, what would happen is we would stick a lead vehicle out, and we were in a valley called the Kunar Valley, and uh we so we stuck guys up on the mountain because what would happen is the uh the Taliban would run wire down to the road, and then they would connect to the bomb and they would sit up there with a battery, and so as soon as your vehicle would cross it, they would touch it and blow up uh the ID. So we would send guys out on foot with a little scanner and they would look for that wire, and it's a alternator wire, so it's really, really tiny, like fishing line almost. Yep, so it's really hard to detect. And we had you know ideas of where they might have put it, but we would stick those guys out first to look for um to look for the wire. Because if we can find the wire, then we can dig the ID up. And what started happening is they realized that we were doing that, and uh, so they would set guys out to ambush those guys. So we had a it's uh a um plane overhead called Prophet, and Prophet would intercept radio chatter from the inner from the enemy and said, Hey, you know, get ready, get the cows in place. So they'd use like words, code words, because they knew we were listening to the radio chatter, and they said, get ready to attack the Americans. So our commander said, Hey, you know what, let's get everybody back in the vehicle. So we started moving the guys uh back to the vehicle, and then an ambush started. And it was pretty much a 360 ambush. Um, and my squad leader, his name was uh Lissey, um, he got shot in the stomach, the nuts in the leg. So he called over the radio and said, Hey, I can't move. And uh so we started working on getting him uh in like down the mountain. Guys were trying to get to him so they could drag him to the down the mountain. He's probably up the mountain, you know, 100 meters, 200 meters. And while that's going on, we had another guy get shot in the arm. And I would at the time was the Kazovac uh or platoon leaders uh driver. So my job was to run the radios, and uh basically I was an ambulance if something happened. So I drove up uh to get as close as I could so they could bring him down the mountain. And uh when I did, um our truck started getting hit with RPGs, which are rocket-propelled grenades, and uh one hit and it bounced off the hood and blew up, and another one hit on the side of the RG and exploded. And we have what's called a an RPG cage um that goes around it, and that did a pretty good job. Um, and then I went to move the truck and I couldn't move the truck for whatever reason, whatever it happened, we were just sitting ducks, like disabled disabled, and it was really weird because it's on video. I had been recording, like when we got the radio chatter that hey, we're gonna get attacked. I had turned actually turned on my camera and I said, Hey, Sergeant Jones, I said, How's it feel? We're gonna die, and you know, I was just being sarcastic. I'm like, we're gonna die soon. And he slapped the camera out of my hand and uh said, Turn that crap off. And so, um, anyways, you just see a camera just sitting. That's how I know a lot of it, it's all on helmet cam, too. Um but what ended up happening is, and I'd forgotten about this, is we couldn't move. I kept trying to move the vehicle forward, and you can just hear it rev up, but it wasn't moving at all. The air brakes were pushed in and it wasn't moving. So, for whatever reason, we shut it off, started it back up, and it started moving. So we moved it up, and as we're moving it up, they were carrying Sergeant Lissey down, but every time they tried to move, they would get shot at. So I could see where one of the guys was shooting. So I I got out and started shooting at at that guy, but I didn't see another guy. That's when he shot an RPG at me and it hit right in front of me and knocked me out the berm and uh put shrapnel in my face neck inside. And that was that.

SPEAKER_03 21:41

So that could have been the end of it.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:45

For you.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:46

But it wasn't.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

No, no.

SPEAKER_03 21:48

So then after that, somehow you guys get out of there, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Yeah, we uh the only reason I know this is because there's the footage. Of it. Um, because my timeline once I get back got back and looked at it later, it was way off. Like I had no idea. I thought different things had happened at different times, and I was way off.

SPEAKER_03 22:14

So you had told us before that you have a TBI. Was it from that incident?

SPEAKER_01 22:19

Yeah, that was one of the instances.

SPEAKER_03 22:21

It was just such a big thing.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

Yeah, well, that was three within within like you know, 45 minutes. Because one hit our hood and that really rocked our whole truck. Then one hit the side and just peppered the whole truck. And then uh the one when I was out, it actually knocked me off the berm. Um, and that I just remember just kind of laying there, and all of a sudden I was just really tired. And I didn't know why I was tired because I was in good shape. And then one of the guys said, Hey, you know, we need to get Lissy in the back, and then helping him put him in the back. And I got back in the truck, and I was like, Man, I was just so tired. I didn't know I was tired, but I had metal in my face and I was bleeding from my neck and my side, but I didn't know it. I thought it was his blood. And then I turned to my the guy that was you know, the commander of the truck and said, Hey, Sergeant Jones, I think I got hit. And I don't remember saying that, but I it's on film. And he said, Yeah, yeah, you did, you'll be fine. And so he was just trying to keep me because I was going into shock, and he was trying to keep me calm, and uh then we got the truck turned around and um uh drove down to the LZ, which is landing zone, got in a helicopter and flew out of there.

SPEAKER_03 23:36

So, what was your first memory after all of that? Because you said you don't remember that besides re-watching it on video. What do you remember? Like do you rem is there a point in time where you're like memory was back? Um or do you even remember?

SPEAKER_01 23:53

I I don't know because I thought what I thought I knew when from when I went back and watched the footage is really messed with my head.

SPEAKER_03 23:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

So I don't know what I really remembered and what's just because I've watched the film. Yeah. So I don't I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 24:07

Is that hard? To remember it different than it actually happened? Is that hard for yourself, like your own psyche?

SPEAKER_01 24:15

It was hard at first because I was like, man, I I was way wrong, you know, I was I wasn't accurate at all. And so it made me question everything else because I was like, what else am I remembering? Yeah, whatever. And then yeah, you just kind of accept it, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 24:31

So when you came back, is that when you were in the hospital for a long time?

SPEAKER_01 24:36

Yeah, I was in the hospital for a while. I was at back at um in Bethesda, Walter Reed, and then I got into the home health care program, is where they let you come home, but you have to live with your parents or a caretaker. And so I came back here to Southern Utah and I did that for almost a year, and then my commander said, Hey, we're get trying to get a group back together if you can get out of that program. And I was trying to stay in the army, and they were more or less trying to push you out, push you out.

SPEAKER_03 25:11

Um is that because of what had happened to you? Yeah, just the injuries.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

I I feel this is gonna be very unpopular, but I feel like there's a lot of guys that try and get out of the military. The moment they can get an excuse, you know, to get that pension and to get out, they'll take it. But that wasn't you. I well, I wanted to be in for 20 years. You know, I really enjoyed the military.

SPEAKER_03 25:32

Um even despite the what had happened to you.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:39

That was just part of the job for you.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

Yeah, I didn't enjoy that, but I mean, I enjoyed I mean, I enjoyed being around my friends, I think was the big thing, is just being around your friends and you know, doing something that at the time I felt was really important.

SPEAKER_03 25:54

Yeah, having that brotherhood.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:56

So after that you got healthy enough to go back out to Afghanistan. Yeah. What did that look like?

SPEAKER_01 26:06

Um, I thought we were going back to Kunar Province, which was what I you know, quite a few guys from that my second deployment had signed up to go back. As soon as they found out, hey, that's where we're going, there was a whole list of guys who are like, hey, we want to go back there. You know, part of it's you know, we want a little bit we we want to do it again. Um and so we signed up and we didn't end up going there at all.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

We went to a completely different area area in Afghanistan and I I I have a hard time wrapping my head around wanting to go back.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Yeah, because I do I do now, like I think about it. I've got a uh you know, uh a a little family, you know, and I like now I'm like not a chance. You know it was then I had nothing to lose. So it I just felt like I didn't belong anywhere other than there, you know. And so it made it easy. Like I think about it now, and there's a little bit of guilt because I had a girlfriend or a fiance at the time, and she thought after that that I was never going back, and then I volunte I went back, you know. Yeah I volunteered to go back.

SPEAKER_03 27:22

She's like, You almost died and you're leaving me again.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

Yeah, so it was very selfish of me to to want to experience that and to put her through that all over again, you know?

SPEAKER_03 27:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

But I didn't understand that until I had an actual family.

SPEAKER_03 27:35

Do you think part of that was your TBI too?

SPEAKER_01 27:38

No.

SPEAKER_03 27:39

That was just who you were at that time.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:42

That's what you wanted to do, that's where you wanted to be, and that's where you wanted to be.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Yeah, a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_03 27:48

Because, you know, some people could say, Oh, well, he had a TBI, so he wasn't making the right decision.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

I I made it a conscious decision. And there was there, I mean, there's the fear, you know, like when I I remember when I went on and transferred units, and the thing that I remember is she was she went up with me to help sign all the paper paperwork, and on the way back, she started crying and she said, You're doing this again. And she's like, You were so happy. And and because all my buddies, you know, we'd all sign up, they're all you know, high fiving each other, you know, yeah, we're going back. And then I it like it didn't occur till years later how selfish it was to put her through, you know, the um that I was only thinking, I was only thinking about my feelings, you know, and now like I can't imagine when it's like I I've thought about I'm like if I had a kid, not a chance, or a wife at the time, no way I would go back. So I think that played a role in it.

SPEAKER_03 28:51

And so did that affect your relationship in the long run?

SPEAKER_01 28:54

It did. It ultimately, yeah, I mean, I get came home, you know, eight months later after that deployment, after I got hurt on that deployment, and that was um it it the it lasted a little bit longer, but then I was in that home health program again, and it just didn't it didn't last.

SPEAKER_03 29:10

Yeah. So what what was your second injury the second time you went out?

SPEAKER_01 29:15

Uh the second one was there was a blast, and then I had a door shut on the back of my head and it was all within in the same day, and um so the blast impacted you, and then also the door. Yeah, we we uh I don't know what all you were told. We got overrun by the Taliban on a on a on a mission, and we were just trying to get in into a vehicle. We were all trying to pile into one and their hydraulic doors, and the door got hit and it came and it crushed the back of my head. So I had a big old lump on the back of my head. Whenever any pressure was put on the back, I would just pass out.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 29:57

So we ended up uh then you went home. I went home. And then I was in Texas for about two years and then I got out of the army.

SPEAKER_03 30:09

So what was the hardest part about coming home that last time and knowing that you were just done? I was that difficult or was it like okay, now I'm ready?

SPEAKER_01 30:18

I was ready, I think, to be done because my expectations for my second deployment were not met at all on my third deployment. And I just I had really good leadership on my second employment, really good guys. Um and I trusted those guys a lot and the these guys on this last deployment, with the exception of a couple of the leadership. I didn't really have any faith in them. It just kind of changed my comp my whole point of view on the military and all that.

SPEAKER_03 30:49

Well, that just kind of I think lends lends itself to having this brotherhood makes all the difference. Yeah. You know, because you've experienced a true brotherhood and great leadership and not so much.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:05

So for you, had it been like it was with your second deployment, would you have gone back again? Like with that group of guys that you were with.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

Yes, a lot of it wasn't my because when I came home the the last time they pretty much I when I was in Germany, they they get you ready, stabilize you to come back to come back. They said, Hey, we know about your injuries on your second employment, you're pretty much done. You know, it's not like a a bad thing, but they said, Hey, you're gonna get chaptered out of the military. And like I just I didn't I didn't really care at that at that point.

SPEAKER_03 31:46

So I was just Do you think it was the injury, like the extent of your injuries?

SPEAKER_01 31:52

It's it wasn't the injuries, it was like I said, us getting overrun. I mean, we went, I feel like you can't really leave war on a high note, but I feel like we left doing a really good job, and then to getting overrun, that's where you know where the enemy comes in and takes your equipment. Yeah, that's not a good feeling. No, you know, and to be responsible for you know your weapons being used on other people, that's a terrible feeling. And so it's like it's everything you did is just a race to that moment.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

So let's see.

SPEAKER_03 32:29

You've done triathlons, like Iron Man triathlons, the Baja 1000. And then you went to Ukraine. So it sounds like you like you like to keep active and moving and doing something and having a purpose and having a goal.

SPEAKER_02 32:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

So um did any of those things come about because you were seeking some sort of healing? Was it an end to a means or means to an end, or was it something that you're like, I pushed myself this far when I was in the military, and I like the feeling of pushing myself. So I'm gonna find things outside the military that I can do that push myself.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

Or what you know, what was it like for you? Um let's start with what made you decide to do an Iron Man?

SPEAKER_01 33:17

Oh man. Uh well, I was I actually watched an Iron Man like the World Championships on TV when I was in the hospital. Remember thinking how crazy it was. I was like, man, I can't couldn't believe that those guys were were doing that. And then you, you know, you watch the inspirational story, you're like, man, that would be cool. And then um one day I was just doing something on Facebook and they said, Oh, the Iron Man Trathlons here. And um, I've been running marathons and stuff, you know, just kind of something to do. And so I was like, no way, that's the same race that they have in Hawaii. And so I I signed, I looked at it and I was and I looked at the entry fee and all that. I'm like, ah, I think I'm gonna try that. So I signed up, and I didn't know there was a time cut off for anything. I'm like, I'll just muscle my way through it, you know. And my girlfriend said, You don't even know how to swim. And I was like, Oh, I'll just float on my back. You know, that was my my uh go-to.

SPEAKER_03 34:19

Yeah, I was like, I can do this, I'll just float on my back.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

It might take me forever, but I'm gonna finish. And then she's like, you know, there's a time cutoff, and I had no idea. And so we went to the pool and I couldn't swim. Like, she's like, swim across the pool. And I was thinking, I was like, I'll just swim on my back, but I I really didn't know how to swim, I could float, and so um, I hired a triathlon coach and I just started doing it. And then I uh the day of the race, um I I mean I completed the swim, and that was my big big obstacle because I knew I could do the bike, I knew I could do the run, and then I finished it, and when I crossed the finish line, I was thinking, I was like, man, in all the commercials I've seen, it's always at night. Or all the, you know, the when I watched it was at night. I'm like, so I asked my coach, I said, hey, I'm like, how come they don't call you an Iron Man here? You know, because it's that little e part of your ego, you're like, that's what everybody wants to say, is you want to hear like the voice saying that you're an Iron Man, and she started laughing. She's like, This is a half Iron Man. So I trained for those three months, not knowing that there was a difference. And so I signed up three months later for my first full. And I think part of it was the fear of failing, was like I didn't want to fail, and so that was exciting to me to think I could fail, I think. And so I yeah, I think that's why I wanted because it was terrifying to me to think what if I don't finish spend all this time and all this money and effort and not make it.

SPEAKER_03 35:55

Yeah, I think it's amazing that you didn't even know how to swim when you signed up for your first one, yeah. But but maybe a blessing in disguise that you got to do a half first to get a taste of it, and then go, oh no, I gotta do the real thing now because I've been watching the real thing, and this is great now, but I gotta now I gotta show it for myself too.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

It definitely was because I wouldn't have been ready for the big one, the ball. Yeah, I mean, I had no idea what I was getting into, but it was just exciting.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

What about the Baja 1000?

SPEAKER_01 36:31

Oh, kind of the same thing. I watched a movie when I was when it first came out called Dust of Glory, and it's just basically a documentary about these guys that go down and race in Mexico, and I thought I thought it was pretty cool, but I was like, Yeah, there's no way I'll ever be able to afford it. You know, it's it's expensive. And then I ran into a buddy, uh, he's like, yeah, he's like, I ra I used to race that, and we kind of got um to talking about it, and so yeah, that's how we just drive for yes days and nights, yeah. And that's how we got started in all in all that.

SPEAKER_03 37:12

And then the last thing is Ukraine. So what you went to Ukraine. What what why did you feel like you needed to go to Ukraine? And what did you do while you were there?

SPEAKER_01 37:23

Um I had a buddy that when the war first started, he's from Ukraine, he called me and said, Hey, um, you're in the military, do you want to go to Ukraine? I'm like, that doesn't mean anything. I mean, you can be in the military, that nothing that I have is gonna be of any uh help to anybody in Ukraine. He's like, Well, he's like, I need to go get my parents. And so I got thinking about it, I'm like, man, that'd be kind of exciting. So there's the ex, you know, I was like, yeah, okay, I'll go over there. And so we went, uh, we flew in there, and there's COVID, it had just happened. It was 2022, so COVID, they were starting to loosen up the rules in some places. So we flew over to Poland, and then from Poland, we didn't have any idea what we were doing. We just showed up in the middle of the night and um got a rental car, and everything was still quarantined off in Poland, and so they said you can't leave your room for you know for three days. We didn't listen to it, you know. We're like, well, we gotta get we were trying to get to his family because if we can get into Ukraine and get them out before the Russians came, you know, that was our goal. But we had really had no idea what we were doing. We ended up getting just um into the over the border, and they were there, so we really didn't see any of Ukraine, and we were there just over a week, and then we came home. And then when I came home, um some other people had heard about and said, Hey, we you know, we got a lot of money we want to donate, but we don't have we don't know where to donate it. And I said, Well, I said you could donate to this guy or this guy, and we contacted somebody here in town that had gone on a Mormon mission there, and he said, Oh, I know I have these points of contact. And then the lady called me back and said, Hey, we've you know, we've got a bunch of money, we just need to make sure it gets to where it's supposed to go. And I told her, Oh, I'll take it. And what that it turned into was um I sent out an email to a couple guys and said, Hey, we've got some resources, but we need to be able to vet they're going to where they're supposed to be going. And so this guy named Andre I sent out three emails, and Andre responded almost immediately. So I said, Okay, I'll meet you in Poland on this day. So I flew into Poland and he picked me up, and it was really sketchy at first, you know, because I I've got you know, I had probably $15,000 in cash on American money on me, and I'm meeting this guy, and then we were gonna send over more money, but we had to make sure this money was going to these villages. And uh we went to the grocery store and he had these vans, and we just filled up the vans full of food and uh a lot of Nutella. I don't know what it is there, but the they we take it to these uh maternity wards, they needed Nutella. And uh he said it was for blood sugar or something like that. So tons of Nutella and tons of just baby stuff, and we would um load up these vans and we went into Ukraine and um sorry, I'm losing my train of thought.

SPEAKER_03 40:29

Okay, you're in Ukraine, you bought all the groceries, the food, and the baby systems.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

That's right. So I was originally only supposed to be there for a couple weeks, and when we went into Ukraine, we went to these villages, you know, Cherny was which is where the war originally first started, and it's kind of forgotten. When the war started, everybody's focused on the capital, which is Kiev. And so uh Andre said, Hey, he's like, I can take you to these places, but he's like, they're dangerous. I said, perfect. I said, Well, this is where we want to go, and he's like, Okay, and so we went to these villages, and they all one thing I noticed is all these villages knew Andre, and they all are you know, wherever we went, so I knew that he wasn't trying to hustle us, that he'd been there before, where there was another guy that we'd met, and he's like, Oh, he's like, just give us the supplies and we'll truck them into these villages where Andre was actually doing the work himself, and so we would You could tell by how they responded to Andre shows up, everyone comes in because they know what Andre's there for. Yes, and it was the first month I was there, and then we we ended up getting I got my own van, and then we would come back into Poland, we'd get supplies, and then we would um drive them in. Drive them, but we would we'd go in through different uh border checkpoint crossings, border crossings. He would go to the south, I'd go to the north, or vice versa. And we would make our stops along the way, depending on where the the um our stops were, and we'd meet in Kiev, and in Kyiv we'd pick up more supplies than we'd head north or to the west. And we'd just hit these little villages that had been bombed and you know taken over, and so it was a good experience.

SPEAKER_03 42:14

So Iron Man, Baja 1000, going to Ukraine where it's semi-dangerous, like it sounds like you kind of like I think you are an adrenaline junkie, I will say that right now.

SPEAKER_00 42:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:28

Because you're putting yourself in positions that I mean, maybe it's also to challenge yourself, and when you challenge yourself, you like heal a little bit and grow a little bit, and things change for you, and your and your perception of things changes.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:41

So do you think that was kind of part of it too? Is just like these things that I challenge myself to do kind of help me heal a little bit from some of the stuff that that might be sitting there. Because war, like we think okay, you come home from war and then it's over, but I don't think it's ever truly over in your own mind.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

No. I I feel like Ukraine really messed with my head because I gotta see the other side of war. Where I'd been the guy doing the blowing up and doing the destruction. And then you go in and you see these villages that are flattened or these families that are destroyed, and then it really makes you think you're like, man, I was doing what I was told to do.

SPEAKER_02 43:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:24

You know, but it's like at what cost like what damage did I cause? And that was really hard to think about because I I was there as a civilian, yeah, and it it was in my head, it was it I think it really flipped a switch because all of a sudden I was able to s there's compassion that you I think you have to shut out being on one side and then when you're on the other side that compassion is just shoved in your face and you're like, holy cow, you know, what what have we what have we done? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:01

Yeah, war's ugly. Yeah. No matter what side you're on. Yeah. But I think that like that's interesting because now you have the perspective from the other side, right? Like you were out there just to try and protect your men and your, you know, your group of guys, but also like the other guys behind you because you're trying to clear the IEDs before they have to come through. Like that's what's in your mind on that side. But then you get to the other side and it's like these innocent people are being hurt because of their country and another country at war. And we're fortunate enough in the United States that we don't have to experience that firsthand here. Yeah. And I think that that's a big heavy like I don't again, I think that there's a very special place for people that have to go to war. You know, even though you signed up for the military, there's just like there's so much to it. It's I think a lot of us don't think about how like heavy it is for you guys.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

Well maybe I wanted to do it.

unknown 45:05

Right.

SPEAKER_01 45:05

You know, whereas like Vietnam veterans and World War II and Korea, they didn't get to do it. They didn't have a choice. So it's not that I don't sympathize with our generation, but I feel like we chose to do it. Nobody made us do it. Right. And and so it's almost like we have a responsibility. Yeah, we chose to do it, and there's a lot of consequences that we you don't know until you experience it.

SPEAKER_02 45:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:30

You know, but that's just part of it. But nobody made us do it.

SPEAKER_03 45:34

Right. You know, so that's but I think that like from what you just said, I think you didn't quite understand what it was when you first were getting into it. Like you didn't realize the other side, like you said, you didn't realize like what potentially could be happening on the other side while you're just trying to protect and defend your people.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

Yeah, I I remember right after 9-11 happened, I was living in Oregon and I was living with a a friend, and his dad was a Vietnam veteran. And I remember 9-11 happened, and we went to church that Sunday, and after he came out, his dad was just crying. I was I mean, I was 15 years old, 16, 15, 16 years old at the time. And he's just bought he's this big old tough guy, and he's like, this war is gonna, he's like, this is gonna, and he was right, like, and I didn't understand it until you know years and years later, but he said, he's like, you guys will pay for this. And I didn't we didn't get it. And the funny thing is, is both of us, uh Kristen and I both both ended up joining the military a couple years later. And sure enough, you know, he was right. And it's one of those things where yeah, he lived it, but he got drafted. So that I I feel like there's almost that like I feel like that's a big difference though. Oh yeah, yeah, to be drafted.

SPEAKER_03 46:52

I mean To not even have it on your radar and now you have to go. Yeah. Because you're a certain age and you're a certain gender.

SPEAKER_00 46:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:00

To going, oh, this sounds like something that I would I would really like like to do, or I would really like to challenge myself to do or or put myself in this position, but not really understanding that maybe you might be going to war or whatever. Like choosing that is so different than just being like, here you go.

SPEAKER_00 47:20

Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_03 47:22

Like you were saying. So um, let's see. What does the word recovery mean to you? So I get the sense that your definition of recovery uh might be different from like other people's. So when you came home the last time, did you put a focus on recovery or healing or any of that stuff, or did you just try to get back to your normal life, back to the state?

SPEAKER_01 47:51

I didn't even even now I mean this is part of it, I think, you know, just being able to do something like as simple as this, you know. Tell your story. I think it's that just an ongoing thing. I think I put it off, I blocked it out of my head for a while, you know. I um it's just a complete different mindset from what you are in the military, and then once you're out of the military, then you have to take start taking care of the issues that you may have picked up from the picked up because the issues that you're gonna have, there's nobody there to help you out. It's just you, yeah. So yeah, so acknowledging, I guess acknowledging them because you shut so much out in the military.

SPEAKER_03 48:39

Like what?

SPEAKER_01 48:41

Just uh, I mean, we don't you don't talk about feelings and oh I feel this way, or you know, I feel this way, or I'm scared, or this. You you don't talk about anxiety or you know being depressed or anything, because that can ruin your your career.

SPEAKER_03 48:56

You're there to do a job, you're there to do the job is gonna get in the way, so you have to just kind of push it.

SPEAKER_01 49:00

You don't want to get on any medications, or you know, you know, it's so you learn how to block all that up, and all you're doing is putting it off. And the more you put it off, it it gets worse and worse.

SPEAKER_03 49:13

There's a book called Feelings Buried Alive, Never Die. So it's basically like if you don't deal with some of those emotions and feelings, they're gonna always be there. Yeah. And then they'll come up when you least expect it, and then that's when you have to either shove it back down or deal with it. Yeah. So have you experienced those types of things?

SPEAKER_01 49:34

So can you repeat the question?

SPEAKER_03 49:36

So instead of like like feelings will come up over and over again until you deal with them, right? In certain scenarios. So have you experienced that where they come up at some like something will happen, and then all of a sudden, boom, this thought or this emotion or this experience shows up for you that you never really dealt with because you were too busy doing your job in the military. Has that come up for you? And what does that look like for you? Like different emotions and different feelings and different scenarios that you maybe didn't deal with at the time, but now you have to.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

Um yes, I just don't know how to put it into words. I feel like having compassion for people was the big thing. Um I know it sounds silly, but you just have to the I almost feel like the meaner and the rougher you are, the more the the less it's just a mask, I guess, if you will. And and then I I really feel like going to Ukraine, it was a wonderful experience, but it really I already yes, it complete I already yeah, it it changed my point of view on the suffering of people because now it's in your face. It it's in your it's in your face in a different sense. Like the guys we were fighting, they I I don't regret anything. Yeah, but to see these the civilians suffer, that that is like man, you see a little kid, you know, with no food and water, I mean that breaks your heart. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:09

So it sounds like that was probably a little bit healing for you to be able to do some good, not knowing maybe some of the harm you could have done in Afghanistan, and now you get to do something good. Yeah, and maybe that almost feels like a little bit of like fixing what you didn't know you broke.

SPEAKER_01 51:26

Yeah, there's a lot of these what's the word would we desensitizing desense, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:31

You feel that a lot, and then because it's survival, yes, because if you thought about all of the people you could be affecting, and not just the bad guys, but the innocent families, like you said. If you thought about that while you're at war, it would make your job a thousand times harder, I think.

SPEAKER_00 51:49

Yeah. So you don't yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:50

So you almost comprehend it. You don't think about the collateral damage. So this is the mindset I have to have while I'm at war.

SPEAKER_01 51:56

And I guess switching that off is is has been difficult.

SPEAKER_00 52:01

I mean I I yeah, I think that's something that pops up a lot is that so your recovery is an ongoing process, then yeah, there's no end.

SPEAKER_01 52:18

It's just learning how to do it over and over, and maybe you once that doesn't work, then hit it from another another angle. So I don't think there's any fix for it, really. It's just learning how the fix is just learning how to cope with how to manage it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:38

Let's go back to before we started, you were talking about a book called Tribe. Um and Tribe is kind of synonymous to me with like the brotherhood that you have in the military, right? Like like that's your tribe of men that you rely on each other and you're there for each other, and it's literal life or death. So you're putting your hands and your life in the hands of your brothers while you're out there. So what happened to you when you got out of the military and you no longer had that brotherhood anymore? Did you feel that loss?

SPEAKER_01 53:16

Uh yeah, I I feel like I went from that to when I came back to the States, I was I was in that uh in that there was a unit that I was a part of, and their whole job is to get you out of the military. And I was there for about two years, and it's a very selfish individual type scenario. There's no, you know, uh really any group activities. It's just you show up every morning to formation and then you go to your medical appointments or whatever it is that you're doing. And and I would say, you know, for the most part, most guys are trying to get out of the military there. There's a few that are trying to stay in, and there's you know, most most of the time when you get stuck in that unit, you're not gonna be in the military. They're just gonna you're more of a liability than you are an asset.

SPEAKER_03 54:04

Like it's kind of like your path out, yeah. Whether you want to or not.

SPEAKER_01 54:09

Yes. Um, I I mean some guys do go back to unit, but the one thing that I noticed is you go from high tempo, you know, with your unit to being around your friends as a unit to be being put into a unit where it's very individual and very self-centered and selfish. And that was really depressing to be to be on polar opposite sides, right?

SPEAKER_03 54:34

This really good brotherhood community. You're all there for each other, you have each other's back, you joke around, you you know, it's just like this real community, yeah, to kind of like a fragmented community where not even a not even a community. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:47

I mean, I yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:48

You had a couple guys you were close with, but as a whole, it didn't feel not non- No, it it's it's they're all fr from all over the United States.

SPEAKER_01 54:56

Uh-oh. And they just it's like uh basically they're they're chaptering you out of the military. And it's it's it's uh just a unit that's to get you you know as close as they can to better, and then they kick you out of the army. So everybody's you know leaving at weird times, you know. You may meet one per it's it's it's it's like uh trying to meet friends at a bus stop, if if you will.

SPEAKER_03 55:21

Because they're everyone's coming and going. Coming and going.

SPEAKER_01 55:24

So there's no solid. So you go from being around your friends, you know that there it's yeah, it's very, very lonely, very depressing.

SPEAKER_03 55:33

So, how did you manage that then? So you get out and then you're starting to feel the loss of this brotherhood. Oh, what did you do? Um you try to find that somewhere else?

SPEAKER_01 55:43

I I actually packed up to go AWOL, uh, which is like you leave the military and I got arrested. I'd never been arrested before.

SPEAKER_03 55:51

Because it's against the law to go A-WOL.

SPEAKER_01 55:53

I didn't get arrested for going to AWOL. I got I got into an argument with you know with somebody that way outranked me, and they called the military police and and and got me arrested. And uh then that Thanksgiving, you know, I got I flew home in October back to America, and then I hadn't been home. And so when Thanksgiving came around, I got a rental car, put all my stuff in the back, and I was just gonna leave and come back to Utah. And I luckily I had a friend there that had just gotten stationed there, and he's like, Hey, let me come with you back to Utah. And he by the time the trip was, you know, I got back to Utah, he's like, You need to go back and he You drove from where? From El Paso, Texas.

SPEAKER_03 56:35

Okay, so a decent drive.

SPEAKER_01 56:36

Yeah, about 12 hours.

SPEAKER_03 56:38

Lots of time for him to help you see things straight.

SPEAKER_01 56:41

So he pretty much saved my saved me from from from a lot of being dishonorably discharged, right?

SPEAKER_03 56:49

After you go AWOL, right?

SPEAKER_01 56:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:52

And you'd put in too much time, effort, and energy for that. So he's like, buddy, don't do this. It's not worth it.

SPEAKER_00 56:58

Yeah. Yeah, he's a good friend.

SPEAKER_03 57:02

So you then you get out, right? You get you go to this group, now you're out of the military.

SPEAKER_00 57:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:11

Completely. What does that look like?

SPEAKER_01 57:14

Um I think I was just excited to be done with the military at that point because I hadn't really been in the military for almost two years. I was in the military, but I wasn't, you know, I wasn't with a real unit. So I was just happy to be home, and so I hopped straight into college. Um and that was really rough. Like I struggled really bad. I didn't do well. Yeah, completely different. Um, and I had a couple of really good professors that kind of realized what was going on, and they helped me out.

SPEAKER_03 57:47

And um yeah, that's did you ever find a community that you could really rely on that made you feel not I mean, I don't think anything can replace the military brotherhood, but that made you feel like you were part of something again? Or are you still looking for that?

SPEAKER_01 58:07

I think I'm still looking for that. I mean that's a wonderful feeling.

SPEAKER_03 58:10

Yeah. You know, to be a part of something.

SPEAKER_01 58:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:14

And have a purpose together.

SPEAKER_01 58:15

I'm still I I'm learning how to deal with not having it, but I've got some really good friends.

SPEAKER_00 58:21

Um And are you still close with all of those guys?

SPEAKER_01 58:26

Yeah, we're we're all uh pretty close.

SPEAKER_03 58:29

I mean you probably live across the whole country.

SPEAKER_01 58:32

Yeah, all around the United States. A couple have moved here to Utah, but they're I mean they're all over all over the United States.

SPEAKER_00 58:38

So do civilians understand that feeling of loss of brotherhood?

unknown 58:48

I'm sure.

SPEAKER_03 58:49

Have you come across people that have that you feel like really understand that?

SPEAKER_01 58:55

I'm sure they experience, but I don't think they've got an experience on the level that I have. Doesn't mean they don't miss it, but I feel like that that was the best feeling in the world.

SPEAKER_00 59:06

That's so if you could build a tribe now what would that look like?

SPEAKER_03 59:17

Or have you tried, or is it just really difficult? You're trying to mimic something that was created purposefully because I think that brotherhood is so important at war. That like I feel like it would be kind of hard to create that on your own without that structure of the military kind of putting you all together and you guys working together for that common purpose.

SPEAKER_01 59:40

I think the thing that the advantage the military has or deployment has is you don't worry about anything else. Like that's it. No bills, nothing.

SPEAKER_03 59:52

It takes everything else away so that you can just focus on that.

SPEAKER_01 59:55

And that's one of the things, like with racing, that's you know, I feel like racing does that is because your whole goal is to get that whoever's vehicle across the finish line. And so guys are willing to do whatever it takes, you know, whether it's maxing out their credit cards or you know, running. I had a buddy or two buddies run, you know, in the middle of Baja in the middle of the night, run, you know, four miles down a trail to get fuel, you know, in the middle of the desert.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:21

And you can't do it on your own.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:22

Yeah, you can't do the Baja without. I mean, that's a good feeling to have that. I think that's why there's a lot of guys kind of turning to that sort of back to the military. Uh yeah, that sort of activity, if you will.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:34

It's almost not even about the race, it's just about the community to create there.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:38

That's awesome though. That's great that you've been able to find something because when you experience that great of a loss, I think it really impacts a lot of veterans to a very deep level. And I think that's why there's a lot of um struggles with veterans when they get out. Yeah. Because they've experienced sometimes really horrific things, and then they also experience a loss of their brothers. So, like that combination I feel like would could really mess with somebody's head. You think that's true?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:07

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:08

I well, yes, but I think the part the trauma I don't even think is the hardest thing. I think it's the feeling of losing somebody that will help you out. Like somebody that'll you don't the rely on them out of what not even a question, like something that you know I've thought about quite a lot is I mean, um, like if you needed help with something, there was no hey telling them to do it, it would just happen. If you and that's a wonderful feeling, you know, one of the things that we do when we go to these big bases to you know to get uh fuel and ammo and supplies. There was certain bases where they would do do uh uh your laundry, and a lot of times we'd have just nasty, nasty bags of laundry, but it was a mile in onto that base, and we loved going to that base because we would take in our laundry bag and it would be they would fold it and wash it, fold it, give it back to you, and and I remember you know, we were getting ready to leave Afghanistan, so we're just washing everything. And I remember, you know, one of the guys saying, Hey, I'm going to get so-and-so's laundry if anybody wants to come with me. Wasn't even his laundry. And a bunch of guys just hopped up and did it. And it's something so little, yeah. But I think about it, yeah. I mean, that was one of the things thinking about it. I was like, man, we're never gonna have, and I remember thinking that we're never gonna have this again. That was a it's like, oh, what's if you've ever seen a kid, I mean, I haven't don't have a kid that's graduated high school or anything, but it's like you start to realize, hey, this is gonna end, and it's sad.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:48

It is so all my kids are adults right now, so I know what you're talking about because when they leave, huh? When they leave, it's big, it feels like a huge loss, even if you know they're gonna come back because you you go from raising these children in your home their whole life to now they're doing their own thing, they're off living their own life, they're off creating like their own happiness and finding their purpose.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:14

Yeah, and yeah, you're never gonna have that again. Never, and yeah, you'll have them as adults, but yeah, and that's kind of what that's like is I think it's interesting to go back and look. I think there's some people, everybody copes with it differently. Like remember, like you see, some guys are goofing around, and then there's the other guys that are like they realize like you just see the personalities, and you can tell something's off. Everybody's excited to come home, but you can tell something's not right, and you know it's gonna be the last time, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:50

So, so did it really help you to appreciate your time with your brothers then? Oh having those thoughts while you were there.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:57

Yeah, I remember like on like on one deployment, our last mission, our last second last missions, you know, like they call it right seat ride, and that's where we take the units replacing us, and one at a time, you know, say we've got a truck full of six guys, we've got a driver, a truck commander, and then our dismounts. We pull one guy out at a time and replace it with one of their guys so they can learn their job. So we're not just saying, hey, we're throwing you to the wolves, like a transition, yeah, so they can transition it. And I remember, you know, doing it our last ride with our with our guys, thinking I was like, holy cow, like this is it. And it crosses your mind, you're like, at first you would do anything to be done, and then once it starts, oh sorry once that starts to end when it sets in.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:00

So what would you say to a veteran right now that's listening and feeling that loneliness?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:18

That kind of comes after the uniform comes off.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

I don't know what to say, you know? What do you wish somebody would have said to you? I don't know, because I don't know if I would have listened.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:36

And that's the hard thing is it's like my my friend that I was telling you about where he said we'll pay for the war.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:43

Well I would have I didn't we didn't listen, obviously.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:50

You know, and I I don't I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:53

Because every you don't know what you don't know, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:56

Yeah, I mean I wish I there's something I could tell I I don't know what to Tell them. And that's I don't know. I don't I don't I know that's probably not the answer she lived. I I don't know what I would tell them.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:10

I'm just looking for your answer. I'm not looking for a specific answer. I just want to know like if if somebody could have said something to you, would it have made a difference? But it sounds like because you didn't know what to expect or how deeply it would affect you, that even if somebody had told you something, you might not have even listened, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:28

Yeah. I don't think I feel like my feelings are exclusive. I know there's the generic hey, you know, we've you know, we'll we're here if we need you, sort of thing, but I feel like it's the actions, and it's like how do you get comfortable with somebody where they're able to take the initiative or to see that you're suffering. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:48

So I I don't know. I I wish I had an answer to that. Well, think about it for a minute.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:57

Maybe something will come to you. We'll come back. Um so you want people to understand that it isn't something you just get over, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:09

Um, what's the reality of what's going on of what the ongoing work actually looks like? So what's the reality of life right now that you have to continuously work on to stay in a good place? I mean, I'm sure it helps to have a family, right? Because family gives us a really deep sense of purpose. Yeah. So maybe like even though you don't have your brotherhood, you do have your family.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:33

There's a similarity there. I I get that it's not the same, obviously, because having for women having a group of female friends is really important. But they can't take the place of my family, and vice versa. But I think that it's the same with men when you have a really good group of men that are like your brothers, like that's irreplaceable. But then you have your family, which kind of feels that a little bit, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:02

It's I I would say like it definitely gives me a sense of purpose, you know, and and gives me a little bit of urgency to not just be like, oh man, I don't feel like doing this today or whatever, you know, because it's like, man, I gotta you know, a little wife and a little boy that are relying on me, and that's a good feeling, you know. And you know, to see that they're happy and you know they're excited to see me, and that I mean that's a good feeling. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:30

So I think that's different than the brotherhood, obviously, but feels that kind of like purposeful part of you.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:38

Yeah, very purposeful. So I th it it's helped me out a lot. It's been a wonderful, wonderful experience so far.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:45

Yeah, there's nothing like being a parent.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:47

Yeah, I never thought I would. I was like, oh I'll never have kids. That's why I'm 40 and you know, he's a one-year-old. Because I was like, no, never.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:58

And then just it's just as special. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:05

But it's it's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:07

We kind of started young because we're like, we don't want to be old and still have kids at home because we want to enjoy life. Yeah, but sometimes there's just other plans, and like I truly feel like children are the greatest blessing we could ever experience in this life. There's nothing, nothing that even touches the feelings that you have when you have your own children.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:26

Yeah, nothing. Yeah, I would murder for for this. That's wild.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:31

It's wild.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:32

Like there's some there's a real thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:34

Mama bear is a real thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:36

So the other day, somebody came by, and I never realized this, you know, I was just an outsider, but some lady came and like like started touching the face, and there was a part of me where I was like, get away from my kid, lady. And I realized I'm like, she's harmless, you know. But I was like, This is my this is my little boy, you know. It's it's and I never was like, why did I why did I respond? Like I wasn't rude to her, but I in my head, I'm like, why in your head respond that way? You know, and then I realized I'm like she didn't mean any harm. Like she didn't realize there was a boundary there that she'd crossed, but she didn't it was innocent for her, it was innocent, but it didn't feel so innocent for you. Yeah, well, afterward, yeah. So it's just funny to see like that side of yourself, yeah. But it's also it's a wonderful thing to see. I'm like, man, it's good to care about something other than yourself. Oh, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:27

So I and I really think that that's where that's where we get to find other pieces of ourselves too, is when we get to raise a child, and our whole world is making sure that they know what they need to know, that they're healthy, happy, clothed, fed, you know, like have a warm place to sleep at night, like all of those things. Those are there's a lot of needs that we have to meet for our children, but it's so fulfilling. And the rewards of having this little person that just you walk in the door and they're so excited to see you and run up and say, Daddy, and give you a big hug. I mean, yeah, nothing else in the world feels like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:03

Yeah, it's like what we were talking about earlier, is like you gotta experience it. Yes, like that's the only thing, man. Just w war is the same way, or you know, all this is the same way. I was like, I never got it. And then, like, just within the last two months, like when I come to the come home, I'll drive up, you know, he can hear my truck, and my wife will put him right by the screen, and just some bangs on the screen and screams like, man, this is so awesome. Then there's the other part of me like, how many times do I have left of him doing this to where he's like, get away from me, dad?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:36

You know, well, in our experience, our kids never said get away from me.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:40

Oh man, I I meant that as you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:42

No, I know what you're saying, because teenagers can be difficult sometimes, but I don't know. I feel very fortunate because our kids never had a like I hate my parents' face.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:50

And how did what did you do differently?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:52

I don't know. I just I I think part of it is always making sure that there's a safe place for them to talk about anything they need to talk about, and doing it without like something, some sort of like repercussion, because sometimes they just need to be heard.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:09

Did you ever feel like there was a time where there needed to be repercussion, but you didn't?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:14

Or you wanted to be able to do that. I disciplined my children. I was good at disciplining my children starting from a young age, and so they always want to push those boundaries and see if they're still there.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:24

But the kids that feel in my experience, the kids that feel the safest are the ones that have boundaries that they can rely on every single day. Cause some people are like, oh, let your kids be free and do whatever they want. But children seek boundaries.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:37

So when you don't discipline your kids, they don't know how far they can go. So they don't have this like safe. There's something that makes children feel safe when they know what's allowed and what's not allowed. That's one of the things as silly as that sounds. Like when there's discipline in the home and your children know, okay, I'm allowed to do this, I can't do this. And if I do this, there's gonna be a repercussion.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:57

That's honestly one of the things that made the military so easy. Or so I think in my grew up in Boston, it's expected of you. But you always know there's not there's surprises. Like that's the military's full, but there's the boundaries, like you know what's expected, and if you yeah, so I I understand what you're saying. Yeah, I just don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:17

But I was never like so strict with my kids that they didn't feel like they could explore.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:23

I I because I always let my kids choose, make choices, and sometimes I like have to like bite my tongue so hard that it's probably gonna I'm gonna bite it off because I really want to step in and say something or do something to get them to make a better choice.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:37

Like what? Not to put you on the spot.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:41

I I don't I can't think of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:42

I'm trying to think of ways in the future that I can do this with my boy.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:46

Well, you just be there for him and always be there for him to come to without him feeling like you're gonna come at him if he made a bad choice.

unknown 1:13:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:56

So I had one of my kids that was really struggling with something, and he came to us, and I know it was hard for him to come to us, but he wasn't met with, oh my gosh, you shouldn't have done that. Why did you do that? That's awful. It wasn't like that. It was like, yeah, that's that's not cool. And then we kind of talked about it and talked about like if you head down this path, this is what it's gonna look like for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:19

But you have to make that choice because I'm not gonna be there 24-7 to make those choices for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:24

And when he slipped up again, we had, you know, we were like, so why do you think it was hard again this time? What do you think we should do about it? And we let him tell us what he thought, what was hard about him like revisiting this thing, and then what he thought we should he should do to make it easier for him to not step back into this bad habit. And once he said it from his mouth, he owned it. So instead of me telling him what he should do, him telling me what he thought he should do, now it was him taking ownership of the mistake that he had made and what he can do to fix it. So I'm I'm watching him and teaching him at the same time how to handle situations that sometimes feel out of your control or handle situations that feel like really hard to like stay on this path. But then having the understanding of these are what the two paths look like, and if I head down this wrong path, it can take me to a dark place that I don't really want to be. I don't have that insight, but my parents do, and they're and they're giving me the opportunity to make that choice for myself with information that will help serve me to make a better choice.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:34

Teaching them to trust you.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:36

And trust themselves.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:37

Because I want my I'm not raising my kids so that they are little robots that do whatever I say. I mean, sometimes I wish, but we all have agency.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:46

And I want my children to use their agency, but also feel empowered to make good choices because it feels really good when you make good choices for yourself. We all know that. And so, and it also feels kind of crappy when we make bad choices for ourselves. So it's kind of like natural consequences.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:04

So letting your kids make those choices and slip up, and then you're just there to kind of help pick them up and get them back going again.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:11

And it's hard sometimes. It's hard sometimes, and it depends on like our upbringing too. Like you were in foster care, so that's that's big. Yeah, that's you probably didn't have that stability that a lot of people had, and it was probably different wherever you landed.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:25

I don't know if you went to multiple homes, but you know, I went well, I feel like I got stuck with a good family at the end, and that's what That's good.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:35

Because that probably gave you some of that stability and structure that you needed to make better choices.

unknown 1:16:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:40

So that's kind of what I'm saying, is like always being a soft place for your children to land and then not harping on them when they make mistakes, because we all make mistakes, just kind of help help them to find their their voice to guide themselves to a really good place. That's my two cents, and I'm not a professional parent. And I've made mistakes. But I think that that has served my children really well. And I'm proud of my kids because they've you know, they're all doing their own thing. I have a son that's living in California, I have a son that's living in New Jersey, and my daughter still lives with us, but I don't know, she could be gone soon too, because now she has a boyfriend and that's all she wants to do. So it's like it's hard to watch your kids leave, yeah, but it's exciting to watch them create a life that they are proud of and that they love. Okay, let's get back to you because I'm done crying. Um, let's see. So when you have a setback, like a bad day or a bad memory or a moment where you lose your focus, what do you do to come back to peace? And what are some things that actually help you to kind of get back on track? Um do you look at them as bad moments or do they become bad days or do they become bad weeks? Are you good at pulling back and going, okay, that's I think my problem is I ignore it.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:13

I I ignore it. Or it's like it'll go away if I ignore it.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:18

Yes. I'll just it does not. Um I think one of the things I think is uh oh it's it's been worse before.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:34

Um but then I I mean I guess it's just a pattern, you know that it'll get better eventually. And that's the thing. It's like wow, this like this sucks, but it'll it'll get better. And so I I've caught myself self, especially the last couple of years, where I'm just stressed about something. You know, I was like, well, what good if I can't change anything about it, what good is it gonna do to stress about it? And it like I had a guy that kept trying to tell me that for years, you know, kept trying to put it in my head and it never made sense. And then, you know, there's stuff that's happened where it's and I've thought about I'm like, can I change it? Like, no, I I can't.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:17

So that helps better too.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:20

Because I I think that stressing over something that could be is a waste of energy.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:26

Yes, and that's something I think is for me that I did a lot, or I still do a lot, but it's trying to make a conscious effort because you don't think that you're doing it.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:38

That's it right there. You all you have to do is make the effort to go, I don't like this, I'm gonna flip it around and I'm gonna think different about this. It's like up to us, and it takes practice, but you can get to a place where it's not even something that you have to consciously do, your brain will just start doing it because you've taught your brain this is what we do when this thought comes in. We flip it on its head and we think this way instead of thinking this way.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:04

Yeah. So it's it's an ongoing thing right now.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:08

Well, you have to teach yourself.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:10

And wherever you put your focus is what's gonna come to fruition in your life. So if you're focused on this thing that's giving you a little anxiety, you're gonna see all kinds of things that push you towards that. Yeah. Where if your focus is on I can't do anything about that, but I can do something about this, and this is the the space I want to keep myself in. And if you put your focus there, that's the direction you're gonna go.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:33

Like when we were growing up, my mom said, if you think you can, or if you think you can't, you're right.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:38

Yeah, that's probably that.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:40

Because mindset's a huge thing when it comes to to healing, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:45

Yeah, it definitely is. So what is something do you have an example of that for us?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:55

Like something that you kind of fixate on and then you have to just go stop and redirect?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:00

Well, I mean, I don't know. I about a year ago I had somebody show up to my house and I just put up cameras outside my house. And it was this, it was like a Friday or s anyways, they showed up and the guy knocked on the door, and then he was holding a clipboard. I was like, Man, what does this guy want? And I just happened to have a buddy there, and he said, Oh, it looks like you're getting served papers. I'm like, what does that mean? He's like, you know, like somebody's serving you papers. I was like, what? I've never really been in trouble or anything. I'm like, I don't know who'd want to do that. And he's like, Well, that's what that guy looks like. Because he had a little badge on his belt or whatever. Anyways, I worried about it all weekend. I was like, what is going on? And then he showed up Monday and my my alert went off on my phone. I looked at him, I'm like, hey, I'm like, don't go anywhere, I'll be right there. So I drove from my work home and I pulled up there. He's like, what's going on? And he said, Oh, he's like, I'm just looking for so and so. I'm like, yeah, they don't live here anymore. And I'm like, can I ask what this is about? He's like, Oh, he's like, I'm just with this credit card company. I had a renter that lived with us that was getting served paperwork, but all weekend I'd stressed about it and it stressed me out. I'm like, what? You know, it was something so little, but I had thought about it, and then I got thinking about it. I'm like, why did I even stress about it? Before you know there was what it really was. There was nothing that I could have done anyways. Yeah, you know, he was gonna come regardless. So what I I let it ruin my whole week, and that really in my so when that things pop into my head, I'm like, oh, can I do anything about it? I mean, that's the most recent thing that I keep replaying in my head, and it's little, but part of it's you know, the anxiety of who is this guy outside my house and what does he want?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:49

You know, yeah, but you can ease that anxiety by going, Can I do anything about it right now? Yeah, no, yeah. So that's that's I like that because that's a simple thing that you can that you just taught people that they can do is just can I do something with this? Yes or no? Does stressing make it better? Never.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:08

And that's never.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:09

When have you ever stressed out and you're like so worth it?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:12

Never. But that's the I feel like I live that mindset to an extreme. You know, on deployment, you think, oh well, what if we hit an ID, you know, or it gets shot? But you just block it out. You're like, well, it's if it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:28

Knowing it's gonna happen doesn't stop it from happening either. Yeah, and or thinking it could doesn't even stop it from happening, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:35

But yeah. So I lived, I think, at one point, but it was an extreme. So I think it was too, it wasn't healthy, and then so going the other way, if you will.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:47

So I want to talk a little bit if you're okay with about your TBI. How has that affected your life? And are there things that you have to do differently so that you can manage things that maybe the rest of us take for granted because of your TBI?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:02

I would say just being able to stay on task, you know, or or remembering my mind's going a million miles an hour, so I think just being able to stay on task, stay focused on something, focused on what I'm doing is is the big thing, and then just remembering, you know, certain events, or you know, just not being just learning little tricks to get yourself back on track. You know, a lot of times I can't remember somebody's name, so I have to think, I'm like, well, how do I know this person? And I'll kind of go down the line like a Rolodex in my mind.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:42

I don't have a TBI and I never remember people's names, so yeah. I I feel you on that one.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:46

So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:48

But um do you feel a noticeable difference before an hour and now? Besides those before the event? Before the event that gave you a TBI and now.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:00

What else is different besides just your memory?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:03

Are there other things that you think sleep is a big one?

SPEAKER_03 1:25:06

Like it's hard to sleep.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:07

It's very hard to sleep. I don't sleep very well. And I know that you know that adds up in other places, you know, with stress and you know it's very important to sleep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:19

Um and your mood and all that, you know, it all it all it's all connected. So has it changed how you trust yourself at all? I don't know how to answer that.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:43

So um it definitely So it didn't just impact you physically, right? It impact the way that your brain functions, like sleep and forgetfulness. Are there other things that are affected by your TBI besides what you've mentioned already? Or is there is it just like your new normal how your brain processes and how you do things like this is like like back to like I can't do anything about it, so I just have to figure out how to manage what it is.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:23

I don't have a good answer for that. That's okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:26

Sorry, I I I feel like I mean I I don't sleep, and I've had to just kind of learn, hey, I'm I I don't sleep well, so how do I deal with that? You know, you know, I don't want to be on a bunch of sleeping medications and that's then you have other problems. Other problems.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:45

So I've just tried to um practices that you do at night, like are there certain things like turn off the TV, you don't be on your phone, like certain things that you do before bed to kind of be better.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:00

I think the thing that's helped I I know it's backwards is just having this little boy, you know. It's like we can't have the TV on or you know, or being doing those sorts of things. So it's it's it's put me in a position to where hey, I've got to look out at what's going on here, not watching TV or you know, doing and I I still struggle, you know, playing on my phone at you know, because I'll I'll just lay there and I can't go to sleep. So I start scrolling, and that doesn't help. But getting in, I know about nine nine o'clock my son's gonna be ready for bed. Yeah, eight o'clock we start getting him ready, and somewhere in between eight and nine o'clock, he's ready to go to bed.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:40

And it doesn't help that at nine o'clock it's still light outside. Yeah right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:44

Yeah. So he I mean. Uh I don't sorry, I don't remember that. That's one of my problems is actually No, I know.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:52

You're good, you don't have to apologize for it. It's I I told you from the beginning, I'll get you back on track. So um, let's move to something else because because I think the TBI is just like something that's different for everybody. It shows up different for everybody. And so I was just curious about what that looked like for you. But I think what it really is is sounds like it's your memory a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:13

My memory's my biggest complaint.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:15

And then staying on track when you're doing something sometimes what you're focused on will just poof go away. And then names and sleep. Yeah. So like that's a lot to me because I don't have the same problem. A little sleep because of menopause.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:31

Yeah. I don't have that yet.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:36

Okay. So what's one thing that you wish someone had told you in year one that you only figured out in year five when you were in the military?

SPEAKER_00 1:28:46

Oh man. Like is there something you wish you would have known from the beginning?

SPEAKER_01 1:29:09

I w I'm sure they told me I I just I feel like it's one of those things where you just gotta experience it and then they can tell you till you're blue in the face.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:27

Kind of back to the veteran question what would you tell a veteran?

SPEAKER_01 1:29:30

It's like maybe somebody could have to I feel like I had really good really good leaders at boot camp and you know I mean they were straight when I went to boot camp these guys were the first guys that invaded Iraq and so they understood the repercussions of poor training and so they gave us the the best training that they could give us um I feel like though it's kind of hard to just really give somebody the expectation of what war's going to be like yeah because everybody's experience is different as well you know there's um just like your two experiences from the first time when you were in the National Guard to when you were in the military.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:11

You know like the National Guard sitting on the fence and watching a missile come into IED going to find IEVs to make sure that you're yeah I mean there's a lot of national it's just for the record there's a lot of national guard that goes out and that was just the mission set that we had at the at that time but I feel like as far as telling us something I mean my I had a uh a drill sergeant I remember he told us from day one he's like don't go out and buy stupid stuff he's like don't get married and don't buy stupid stuff you know until you're you know out of your first duty station is what he told us and I I I there's part of that that I listened to you know I didn't go out and buy a new car do any of that and that's something that what he was seeing in a nutshell is yeah you're gonna have more money but it's he said just what he was trying to get into focus on yourself and he said go to schools so I went to school when I was in there um I would say just stay out of trouble don't don't are you asking like in general or it's just something you wish you would have known in the beginning that you now know or how about this let's let's switch up the question let's what's something you would have told yourself at 22 from this self now like you right now knowing what you know understanding what you what you understand I would document things more that's what I I wish I would shuttle or write it down I wish I would have written it down and I wish I would have taken pictures you know because I've got some pictures and stuff but um like while you were deployed yeah I wish I would have kept better kept better notes or record of what happened or actually that's what I wish I would have done. Because it makes it easier to go back and look and see because that's that's it's because the TBI probably took some of that from you in an event but it's also you know it's every once in a while you have to go back and look and you're like did this really happen and you look and you're like yes it did happen.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:27

Okay last question Tim who is Tim today compared to who you were when you were 17 when you signed up and what do you think this journey has made of you so start with who's Tim today?

SPEAKER_00 1:32:46

Well thinking back to seventeen year old Tim and today Tim what's some of the biggest things that have happened that you've learned or that have changed you in that time I would say it's a hard question I'm struggling with this question. I think what is the biggest thing you learned about yourself between seventeen and now well I think I've learned to be afraid I think so did you feel fearless at 17?

SPEAKER_01 1:34:04

I feel yeah I felt I think that's why I kept going back on these deployments and kept doing these things is because I thought you were invincible invin yeah I think to a point yes because who in their right mind would do it and there's a lot I'm not I it's again and again it's not exclusive to me. I mean there's right thousands of guys that we're just talking about you.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:26

Yeah I would say that um respect a fear I the older I get I'm starting to be I'm I feel like I I I I become afraid a little more I be kind of become aware of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:47

Aware that's a good word of the possibilities that are out there of what I don't aware of danger I th I think aware I I have now the older okay the older I get the more I realize how much I have to lose whereas and you had said that earlier when you were younger you're before I had nothing to lose now I have a family you know which to me is I I love them I I would give up I get it all all of them to and so it's I think that's what I I I think I have lots to lose now. So it's like before I would just do these crazy off the wall things you know because I wanted just to feel something and now I gotta slow down and think hey I got these this little family that I've got to think about.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:42

And you still get to feel things they're just very different now.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:45

It's peace it's peaceful. It's not it's not like a chaotic yeah um fear. Now my fear is you know not being able to provide for them or you know to be around for him and my wife I think that's the fear.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:00

It's a different fear which is more I feel like that's more of a like you truly understand what your purpose is now.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:17

I'm trying to understand it.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:19

Yeah I I I mean that little boy thinks you're everything in the world to him yeah so does my wife yeah and you don't want to let them down.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:27

No not no I don't want to let them down.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:31

And so how beautiful is that you got to live the life where you didn't care about anything and now you get to the life live the life where you it's love so deeply that it's opened up a whole new realm for you of possibilities and responsibilities and even like the awareness to there's certain things I'm not gonna do because if something happens to me they are going to suffer and I don't want them to suffer so it's the same feeling just a small group now.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:58

Yeah that makes sense so I like that it's my little my little tribe yeah that's awesome is there anything else that you want to share with with our audience about what you've learned and what you've gone through and maybe some good feelings that you've gotten from all of the the massive hardship and and struggles and injuries that you've gone through I never this I know this sounds I never really thought of it as hardship really until I think after I got out of the military or or even like you when I went to Ukraine that would really open my eyes you know and then I realized you know I don't even think that I had compassion for myself so I think that's part of it is sorry what was the question it's almost like like your mindset at that time was perfect for what you were doing and now the mindset that you have for this time is perfect for what you're doing.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:14

Yeah like the fearless mindset that's what you needed to well in my head I thought everything was an adventure.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:20

Yeah I remember even like when I left my family when I was a kid getting on the bus subconsciously I knew that was the last time I'm gonna see my family. You know and it wasn't until like 25 years later that we were all together at a funeral. That was the first time since 2001. And I remember like thinking back on I remember getting on the bus thinking I already know this the last time but this is an adventure you know and so I always in my head I thought everything was just an adventure and so I would push things or I would choose to do things because I'm like oh this isn't gonna be an adventure and exciting yeah got me into trouble in some instances but it it was my I guess my way of coping with not knowing what was going to happen. I just told myself it was an adventure mindset.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:10

You needed that adventure mindset to do what you were doing. Yeah and now you need the mindset of okay I need to be a little bit more cautious and careful with certain things because it's not just me anymore. Yeah yeah well thank you so much for being here Tim and telling your story. I know that I've appreciated everything that you've had to say and I know our audience is going to really love to hear your story and I think it will really resonate with some people that have been in a similar position to you and I just thank you for your vulnerability and sharing your story with us because our big purpose is to help people to realize they're not alone and we all have hard things it just looks different for each and every one of us. And so I really appreciate you being here with us today on Irene Cares.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:56

Thank you thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:58

Thank you for joining us today and as always if you have a story or a comment or something you'd like to share drop it in the comments below and we'll see you next time. God bless exhausting how you guys do this every day it's exhausting it's exhaust it's it's really exhausting