The Lifeline Podcast | Episode 14 | The Dangers of Apathy

The Lifeline is a family round-table podcast hosted by Dr. Anita Ingram-Taylor, Dr. Jennifer Ingram-Sanges, Dr. Michael Ingram, and Dr. Travis Ingram—four siblings, ministers, and teachers exploring the rhythm of restoration for spirit, soul, and mind. Each episode invites listeners into honest, Spirit-led conversations that bridge biblical wisdom, emotional healing, and practical transformation. Together, they unpack life’s hardest questions and rediscover the heartbeat of wholeness through God’s truth, grace, and love. *New Episodes drop weekly on Tuesdays*

Visit us at www.TheLifelineResource.com and on YouTube at The Lifeline Resource & Development Center

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Welcome to the Lifeline Podcast, the rhythm of restoration for spirit, soul, and mind. Where truth is steady, great, fine, and love restored. Join us now for real conversation with real family.

SPEAKER_05 0:21

Hi there, and thank you for joining us for this episode of the Lifeline Podcast. And with me today, we have my brother, Pastor Michael Ingram. And my name is Anita Taylor, and we are coming to you with a very interesting concept, and that's the concept of apathy. Um, recently I had uh gotten to speak with a new convert, and they were so excited about Christ. They were just bubbling with joy and love and adoration and devotion that was oozing from every part of them. And it was beautiful and sobering to me because it made me recognize some spots in my life where maybe I'm not as hot as I used to be in my love for him and in my devotion and expression of love to him. So that's what we want to talk about in this segment, and that's the concept of apathy. So we're gonna start, if you don't mind, in Matthew 24, uh 12, and we're gonna read Revelation 3 here shortly, and that's the the um the verse on lukewarmness in Revelation. But right now, let's look at Matthew 24, verse 12, in the Passion Translation.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

It says, There will be such an increase of sin and lawlessness that those whose hearts once burned with passion for God and others will grow cold.

SPEAKER_05 2:04

For God and others. So, right off the bat, I want to be clear that according to this and other scriptures, apathy is not just about uh coldness toward God. Right, it's toward God and others. Yes, right, and it's as a result of sin rampant in the earth. Okay, being not just sinning, but being affected by sin, being affected by pain and hurt and harm and all of the things that are happening in the earth. Um, and so then apathy is not just open rebellion. We'll see if you turn to Revelations chapter 3 and then we're gonna just discuss it. Revelations 3, verses 15 and 16. We're gonna see that apathy is not rebellion, apathy is a loss of temperature.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

I know all that you do, and I know that you are neither frozen in apathy nor fervent with passion. How I wish you were either one or the other, but because you are neither cold nor hot but lukewarm, I'm about to spit you out of my mouth.

SPEAKER_05 3:22

Okay, so that he's talking to the Laodicean church, and that's a prophecy of the end age, but he's addressing a spiritual condition. And it's interesting that he says he says that apathy is lukewarmness. So apathy is not about turning against God, it's just a temperature change. I like to look at lukewarmness as bath water. Okay, so if it's like, for example, recently um we got a bathtub at the house. We only had a shower, and I am looking so forward to a bathtub. And it's a massive bathtub. And every time I look at it, I'm just like, oh, I can't wait to get you connected. Um, but then I went into the sink in the kitchen and I was washing my hands and I realized, ooh, we have a small water heater. And unless we turn the temperature of this water up, I'm not gonna be able to fill that bathtub up. Right? I'll be able to get it only halfway full, and then I'll have as I continue running the rest of the water in there that's not hot, it's just gonna make it lukewarm, right? Because a little bit of hot and a little bit of cold is lukewarm, right? Right? So lukewarmness is not about just turning our heart against God, it's a mixture of the two. That's right. It's it's comfortable bath water, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:53

In the Old Testament, they called it strange fire.

SPEAKER_05 4:56

Yeah, exactly. So when we think about, okay, in another place it says that um you've lost your first love. Revelations chapter 2, he says to another of them, I've I have something against you because you've lost your first love. So when I heard this new convert, just oh, she was glowing with adoration for Jesus. Adoration. And I love him like that too. But then I recognized I have been affected by pain. Right. I have been affected by wounds and and by things like that, and so there's a little bit, there's a little area in my life, specifically when it comes to like my relationship with my husband, where I'm sitting in some warm bathwater.

SPEAKER_06 5:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:49

Right?

SPEAKER_06 5:50

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 5:50

Because my interactions with the Lord about that, and my interactions with Him, they're not hot. Right. You see? I do so it's possible to be on fire and to have fiery flame in one area of my life and to have apathy in another.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 6:10

Let's talk about that. What's your perspective on that?

SPEAKER_02 6:13

Well, I know in the Old Testament that the order in the temple was that God would light the flame. He himself would come and light the flame in the temple, but it was the priest's job to keep it going.

SPEAKER_07 6:27

Right.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

And so I think a lot of times we want to be like, God, make me hungry, you know, fan the flame, make me hotter, make me want you more.

SPEAKER_06 6:37

Right.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

Cause me to be thirsty for this, cause me, you know what I'm saying? But that's not how it works.

SPEAKER_07 6:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

We have the responsibility, right? To um cultivate our hunger.

SPEAKER_07 6:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

Right, and to cultivate our thirst.

SPEAKER_07 6:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 6:53

And to go after him and to seek after him and to pursue him and to hunger for him and to thirst for him. And of course, he will respond to all of that that we do. But we have that responsibility, I think. Like I said, we we want to shift that over to God and say, Lord, I need you to make make me want to read your Bible.

SPEAKER_07 7:11

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

That's not how that works. Yeah, it's it's your sacrifice in the not wanting to, and you do it anyhow.

SPEAKER_07 7:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

That causes a little more oil to be poured in so the front the flame gets a little higher.

SPEAKER_05 7:23

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 7:24

You know what I'm saying? Yeah. It's that sacrifice because love is sacrificial. And so it's us continuing to do that. It's the laying aside something and fasting, right? Yeah. When God calls you to do that. It's the praying when you don't feel like it.

SPEAKER_06 7:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

You know what I'm saying? These things are what keeps that fire ignited and burning and even burning higher and hotter. And so I think over time, uh we we let those things just slip because they're actually not part of our lifestyle. They're in response to they're in response to crisis.

SPEAKER_05 8:00

Exactly. And and and and it's okay to reach out to him in crisis.

SPEAKER_02 8:04

Right.

SPEAKER_05 8:04

It's it's absolutely okay to do that, but not to neglect him at other times. Right.

SPEAKER_02 8:11

And so I think that's what the church has neglected as a whole is a lifestyle. A lifestyle of fasting, a lifestyle of praying. Devotion. A lifestyle of devotion. You know what I'm saying? And so we only do it when we feel bad or we're, you know, about not doing it. Or we only do it because we're we're trying to get something. You know, I want a new car. So maybe if I'll, you know, do these things, yeah, he'll give me a new car. You know? I love here the next very thing that he says in this, and it's it's quite powerful. After he says, but because you were neither hot nor cold, but lukewarm, I'm about to spit you out of my mouth. For you claim, I'm rich and getting richer. I don't need a thing. There it is. There's the apathetic heart. I don't need a thing. He says, yet you are clueless that you are miserable, poor, blind, barren, and naked. Right? And so I think that's the the danger of the apathetic heart. Is there's this, they have this idea, well, I already have that, I'm good. You know what I'm saying? I I've obtained this, I'm good. You know, I don't I don't need any, I don't need to go get oil for myself.

SPEAKER_05 9:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

You know what I'm saying? I've got enough to do me.

SPEAKER_05 9:36

That reminds me the two scriptures that you just read, and and I'll have you, if you don't mind, too, Romans 12, 11, if you'll look at that one for me too, while we're talking about this. The first one we saw in Matthew 24 was love growing cold. Growing cold, right? We weren't talking about mixture just then. Right. Um, so that one was is is one one way apathy creeps in was love growing cold. And again, we said apathy isn't rebellion, it's temperature loss, it's the the cooling of love, and often that cooling of love happens through prolonged exposure to uh to cynicism or to sin or to weariness, right? It's just prolonged exposure to something like that, yeah, and it causes a cooling. But then the second one that you read in Revelation, he actually talked about lukewarmness, and that was something different. Jesus didn't rebuke passion or even or even doubt there. No, he was talking about indifference, right? And lukewarmness, he says, I'll spit you out. Well, he's he's not saying I'm you're not gonna go to heaven or I'm gonna refuse you entirely. He's saying that lukewarmness actually offends love. It's not colorful, right? Because it refuses to feel so when we one of the ways I think that we can measure lukewarmness in our life by that scripture specifically, is the refusal to feel.

SPEAKER_02 11:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 11:08

Right? Um, the loss of passion, the refusal to feel, and often we refuse to feel um because we think I don't really need this, I've already got all that I need. Right. As you just read.

SPEAKER_06 11:21

That's what I just read.

SPEAKER_05 11:22

Exactly. So that's dangerous. So apathy comes in. I've actually found ten different ways that I think apathy comes through scripture. So let's look at Romans 12 11.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

All right. Be enthusiastic to serve the Lord, keeping your passion toward him boiling hot, radiate with the glow of the Holy Spirit and let him fill you with excitement as you serve him.

SPEAKER_05 11:45

And that's where you were talking about strange fire a minute ago.

SPEAKER_02 11:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 11:48

Okay, because that has to be tended.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

It does.

SPEAKER_05 11:51

Okay, so you were saying that that God came in the temple and he lit the fire, but it was the responsibility of the priest to tend it.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

And to keep it.

SPEAKER_05 11:59

That's exactly right. And and just like this scripture here says, Um, it uses the same Greek word, which is uh the word keep. That's it. Right? And it implies ongoing tending because apathy begins when the flame is left untended.

SPEAKER_02 12:17

Right.

SPEAKER_05 12:17

When the hot part of me, the passion in me toward him, the devotion in me, is left untended.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

Yeah. That's it. Amen.

SPEAKER_05 12:26

Look at Ephesians 5, 14. I think that there's just this idea that apathy is just lukewarmness, but it's not.

SPEAKER_02 12:45

This is why the scripture says, Arise, you sleeper, rise up from your coffin, and the anointed one will shine his light into you.

SPEAKER_05 12:55

So in this context here, he's been talking about apathy. He's been talking about the loss of spiritual fire, of flame, of passion. And so he's saying here that apathy is a kind of spiritual sleep.

SPEAKER_02 13:07

It is.

SPEAKER_05 13:08

We've gone to sleep in an area. Is that right?

SPEAKER_02 13:11

That's it.

SPEAKER_05 13:12

So in any area that I've just gone to sleep in, that's an area of apathy. It is. And that means that my affections are dulled, my awareness is is muted, um, my life is just kind of autopilot.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

Right. Well, and I think a lot of times um the reason why that happens is there's not a continual flow of light in.

SPEAKER_07 13:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

You see what I'm saying? There is no pursuit of more.

SPEAKER_07 13:40

Right.

SPEAKER_02 13:40

We're just not letting more light in.

SPEAKER_07 13:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 13:42

Right? We're not hungering for him, we're not thirsting for him, we're not seeking after him, we're not going after him. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_06 13:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

We're trying to live off of last week's bread.

SPEAKER_03 13:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 13:54

You know, rather than getting the bread for the day.

SPEAKER_06 13:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 13:58

This is why Jesus commanded them in the wilderness, only pick up what you need for the day concerning the Israelites and the manna in the wilderness. You know, only get what you need, because if you try to get for the tomorrow, it'll spoil.

SPEAKER_05 14:10

Well, and and yeah, and you're right, and this is something that I I talk about all the time in my home with my husband. It's what are you doing today, Sunday, that is going to prevent next Sunday from being today?

SPEAKER_02 14:27

Right.

SPEAKER_05 14:29

Because Tuesday, this Tuesday turns into next Tuesday and then into the next one. And if nothing is being sought, right, and no change is being applied, and you're just living on autopilot, then all you do is you live a sequence of Tuesdays.

SPEAKER_02 14:46

It's like it's like the profound statement Smith Wigglesworth said. To live two consecutive days on the same spiritual plane is a tragedy.

SPEAKER_05 14:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

It's a tragedy.

SPEAKER_05 14:55

It feels tragic to me.

SPEAKER_02 14:57

It is tragic. We we must be advancing and growing and discovering. Me and Travis had a conversation the other day about that. We were in the truck and we're both just weeping and crying because the presence of the Lord were headed to work and so just so strong in the truck, and we're we're talking about Michael, what does it look like to um hunger for him and to long for him? Yes, and to keep that going. And I said, Travis, you he told me uh several years ago, I was praying and fasting and just hungry for him, wanting more, you know, to be closer, to be to live from the white of his eyes. Yeah, as Damon Thompson would say it. And and the Lord spoke to me and he said, Discovery, Michael. I said, What? He said, Discovery invokes longing. And longing, discovery. It's the endless pursuit.

SPEAKER_04 15:50

It's the loop.

SPEAKER_02 15:51

It's the loop. It'll cause you to continue going deeper and going further. You know, he said, just discovery. Think about everything, everything God has for us. It's hidden for discovery. Right? It's not hidden so that we can be kept in the dark. He wants us to discover. Right? He wants us to seek after him.

SPEAKER_05 16:13

To treasure hunt.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

He said, you would find me if happily you'd feel after me.

SPEAKER_03 16:17

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 16:18

Right? He wants us to seek after him, to thirst for him, to hunger for him, to desire him, to want him. And we're the ones that have to manage this internal world of ours.

SPEAKER_05 16:30

And wake from that spiritual sleep, that comfort.

SPEAKER_02 16:32

Right.

SPEAKER_05 16:33

That just causes us to live a series of Tuesdays.

SPEAKER_02 16:36

Right. And and just become um, what is the word for that? Robotic.

SPEAKER_07 16:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:43

Robotic.

SPEAKER_07 16:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:45

You know?

SPEAKER_07 16:45

Autopilot.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

Autopilot. Conformity.

SPEAKER_05 16:51

There's the word. That's it.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

Be not conformed to this world.

SPEAKER_05 16:56

That's it right there.

SPEAKER_02 16:57

Right? Romans 12, 32. But be transformed. By thinking differently.

SPEAKER_05 17:04

Yes. That's intentional devotion. That's intentional.

SPEAKER_02 17:11

Yeah. I know a lot of people have this, I've dealt with it many times down through the years of I'll talk to people and I'll talk to them about this particular subject of being fervent for the Lord and hungry for God. Well, I have my devotion every morning, you know, they'll say, with the Lord. And I'm like, okay, what does that look like? Well, I'll get up and read out of that, you know, the next chapter in my devotion book. Oh, you think that's devotion?

SPEAKER_05 17:41

That's giving your husband the perfunctory kiss before he walks out the door, a peck on the cheek as he leaves every single day with no real intimacy.

SPEAKER_02 17:50

Right. And but I think the majority though of people view that as devotion. And they view that as, well, I'm seeking him. No, no, that's not seeking or hunger or that's none of that, you know. That's Tuesday and yeah, that is you trying to quiet your own guilt.

SPEAKER_03 18:10

Dear God.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

That's what that is. And so I think if if we would, you know, be authentic and honest with ourselves, then we we we'd see that hold it, I'm really not thirsty for him. I'm really not hungry for him, right? I'm just trying to silence this thing in me that's making me feel bad for not hungering for him and thirsting for him. You know, I know uh me and Travis was talking about something the other day, and it was we were talking about um Schuyler's transformation.

SPEAKER_07 18:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

And how he went from this, I'm just not gonna believe in the Lord until I see something. Right?

SPEAKER_05 18:54

Skylar's our nephew.

SPEAKER_02 18:56

Skylar's our nephew. And so he's sitting in the military bunk, you know, where he was stationed at, and and he's just like sitting in there and he's just really struggling because he's going through a bunch. He wants to come home, he wants to, you know, all this stuff, and and he's really in a battle, you know, because he's surrounded with a whole lot of ungodliness. And it's warring against his raising.

SPEAKER_06 19:17

Yeah, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 19:18

The things that were deposited. And he'd get on the phone and he'd talk to us. I'm just not gonna believe until God shows me that he's real, right? Of course, his testimony today, he said, I can't explain it. And I'm gonna start crying just talking about it. He said, I can't explain it. He said, but I was just sitting in there. God didn't do anything. Somebody walked into the room, it felt like he said, I didn't see anything. And I went and Holy Spirit spoke to me this past week. And he told me, he said, Michael, do you know what I did? I just touched the doorknob. He said, All I did was touch the doorknob to his room. And I think a lot of times we're wanting something grand and great. We're wanting God to manifest in some profound way that is life-altering to us that will cause us to want him. And I think we miss the moments that he just touches the doorknob, right? And he left his scent on the door, and that's what he experienced. That scent on the door has caused such a radical transformation in him to a point to where an insatiable hunger to know him more and deeper, right? And not just for him, but to leave many sons to glory. You know what I'm saying? And so it awakened. It awakened something in him. It it silenced that that voice of I need to see something.

SPEAKER_07 21:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

And God's like, you really don't need to see. You don't need to see. The doorknob of his room.

SPEAKER_05 21:16

The um the scripture that you're alluding to there in the Song of Solomon. Yes. For those of you who don't know it, it's the Shulamite Bride and the Song of Solomon and the Passion Translation will change your whole life. Um, but her lover, Jesus, she's getting ready for bed and she's already got her nightgown on, and she's already washed her feet, scripture says, and she lays down and she gets cozy under the covers and she gets into the right spot to where she's the most comfortable and she doesn't want to move. And then she hears him knock at her door. And she thinks to herself.

SPEAKER_04 22:06

I'll get with him tomorrow. I'm already comfortable. I'm already in the bed. I'm in my background. My feet are washed. I'll get with him tomorrow. And then she thinks about him. And she throws the covers back and she runs to the door, but he's already left. But he left his scent on the doorknob. And when she just smells his scent left on the doorknob, scripture says she comes completely undone.

SPEAKER_05 22:40

Moments before she was concerned about her her nightgown and her her clean feet, and now she flings the door open and runs into the dirty street to go and find him. Doesn't care that she's half naked and that there's guards out the street who will take advantage of her. She doesn't care. The scent of him on the doorknob completely undoes her.

SPEAKER_02 23:05

Right.

SPEAKER_04 23:09

That's what happened to him.

SPEAKER_02 23:11

That's what happened. And that's what we need. This is what for those that are in places of apathy. Right? You're not there because you just sinned greatly.

SPEAKER_07 23:22

Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:23

Right. You're telling him, I've already washed my feet.

SPEAKER_03 23:27

Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

I'm laying down, I'm tired.

SPEAKER_03 23:29

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

And he's not wanting in so that, you know, he can take something from you.

SPEAKER_07 23:40

No.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

You know what I'm saying? But I think a lot of the times that's how we look at the Lord. We think, well, serving him is all about ministry. It's all about me spending myself. You know what I'm saying? Oh my Lord, we've we've missed it then.

SPEAKER_07 23:55

Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

He's not looking for what you can do.

SPEAKER_07 23:58

Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

He's more interested in just being with you.

SPEAKER_06 24:02

Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:02

He just wants to be in your presence. He wants you to be in his. He's looking for that tangible communion and union and the abiding and the connecting.

SPEAKER_05 24:14

The exchange of sense.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

The exchange of sense. Exactly. That's what he's wanting. He's not, he's not, he's not trying to get you to labor for him.

SPEAKER_05 24:27

Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

Right?

SPEAKER_05 24:28

I know I hate that concept of will Jesus use me. It sounds so used. Right. Do you know what I'm saying? Prostituted.

SPEAKER_02 24:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:40

It sounds it sounds not like him at all.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

It should be Jesus partner with me.

SPEAKER_05 24:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 24:48

That's what he's wanting.

SPEAKER_05 24:49

Let's do something together.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

Let's do something together.

SPEAKER_05 24:51

Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

Right.

unknown 24:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

And maybe he was getting because I'm more than a tool.

SPEAKER_05 24:55

I'm not a tool.

SPEAKER_02 24:56

Right. Maybe he was getting her up so they could play a game of Scrabble.

SPEAKER_04 25:01

Right. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

He's like, I'm just a little bored. I want to hang out with you. Let's do something.

SPEAKER_04 25:06

Exactly. You know? Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Fun. Something relaxing. And so it's just we we have this wrong image of the Lord.

SPEAKER_06 25:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:15

You know, and because of that, we tend to isolate ourselves or stay apathetic.

SPEAKER_05 25:20

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

You know what I'm saying? We don't we don't go after, we don't pursue, we don't hunger for.

SPEAKER_05 25:25

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 25:26

Right? And so I think we're gonna have to shift our perspective in that so that we can rightly see him and see his heart toward us.

SPEAKER_05 25:35

That's it right there. Will you go and look at Hebrews 3, 12 through 13? Right now we have looked at apathy as love growing cold, as lukewarmness, as a neglect of zeal. We've seen it now as spiritual sleep. And here in Hebrews 3, verses 12 through 13, we're gonna see another aspect of apathy, how it manifested, why and how it comes.

SPEAKER_02 26:05

So search your hearts every day, my brothers and sisters, and make sure that none of you has evil or unbelief hiding within you. For it will lead you astray and make you unresponsive to the living God.

SPEAKER_05 26:21

Right. So apathy is being unresponsive. It's unresponsive. That's a hardened heart. In another translation, it says, having an evil heart of unbelief, a hardened heart. An evil heart is not your evil, it's it's a heart of unbelief.

SPEAKER_06 26:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 26:38

A hardened heart. Absolutely. So the danger here that he's talking about here is not just you're going off with a sudden rebellion and sudden sin. He's saying it's a gradual hardening of the heart.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

Right. Amen.

SPEAKER_05 26:53

Because of because of unbelief.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

Because of unbelief.

SPEAKER_05 26:58

And he showed me this week that unbelief is rooted in control. Trying to control our life, trying to control every outcome, just trying to be in control.

SPEAKER_06 27:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:11

It starts hardening us so that we're unresponsive to him. Can you imagine just that that concept by itself? Having someone as beautiful as he woo you come to you, leave his sin and just be unresponsive.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

It's like laying next to your spouse and you say, Can I hold you? And they don't move.

SPEAKER_05 27:39

And they don't move. Oh, that's that's that's horrific.

SPEAKER_02 27:43

You know. It's like leaning in for a kiss and there's no response.

SPEAKER_03 27:49

No response. Indifference.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

Indifference. You know, that's like reaching to grab their hand and they push it away.

SPEAKER_03 27:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 27:56

You know?

SPEAKER_03 27:56

That's apathy.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

It's apathy.

SPEAKER_05 27:59

Yes. Look at Jeremiah. You don't have Jeremiah in there, do you? Oh.

SPEAKER_02 28:04

I don't. I could pull it up on my phone.

SPEAKER_05 28:06

Yeah, no. Look at Jeremiah for me. Jeremiah 6, 14. Um, because I think that this is um this is really important because I think that apathy sometimes masquerades as serenity or as peace. Um, and and we will we'll numb ourselves and because we're numb we'll say, Well, I'm in peace, but no, we're numb.

SPEAKER_02 28:32

Yeah. 6.14.

SPEAKER_05 28:34

Yeah, yeah, Jeremiah 6.14.

SPEAKER_02 28:39

They treat the wounds of my people as though they were scratches. They say, peace, everything is well. When there is no peace, peace, and nothing is well. Although they've acted shamefully and committed abhorse acts, they feel no shame.

SPEAKER_05 28:58

They feel they feel nothing. So there's numbness.

SPEAKER_02 29:01

They don't even know how to blush. They will fall among the fallen and stumble in their own time of reckoning. Ayahweh has spoken.

SPEAKER_05 29:10

Do you see that though? So they they they treat the wounds of other people in their own wounds. Like it's nothing. Like it's just nothing. They refuse to feel anymore. Do you see what I'm saying? And they say, well, because I can't feel anything. This was the res this was the the condition of my husband for a number of years. He was just like, well, I just can't feel anything. And he was so wounded, right? So wounded by so many things, but he refused. He refused to feel those things. And you can't heal what you refuse to feel. That's right. Right? And so he would call that, well, I just I have some serenity. But he wasn't. He wasn't, he was a seething pot underneath. Right. Do you see? Right. And but he called it peace.

unknown 30:00

Right?

SPEAKER_05 30:01

But it was not peace at all. It was a refusal to feel.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

Right.

SPEAKER_05 30:05

That is apathy.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

It is. And that right there, it opens the door for greater damage over time.

SPEAKER_05 30:12

And he just says it causes a fall.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

It causes a fall. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 30:17

Right. Alright, the next one I want to look at is uh Revelation 2, verses 4 through 5. The rest of these you can read from your Bible there, because they should be in there, or whichever you want to do. But Revelation 2, 4 through 5. And here Jesus, uh Jesus calls apathy abandonment.

SPEAKER_02 30:43

But I have this sin against you. You have abandoned the passionate love you had for me at the beginning. Think about how far you have fallen. Repent and do the works of love you did at first. I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place of influence if you do not repent.

SPEAKER_05 31:06

Abandon the word abandonment, that's that's really, really a hard word. That means you've walked away from. And he says, he's calling this at this talk about apathy here.

SPEAKER_06 31:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:17

So God's calling apathy abandonment. Not that you've abandoned doctrine, you've abandoned affection.

SPEAKER_06 31:25

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_05 31:27

The the expression of affection. And then he tells us what the cure is. He says the cure is to remember your first love, repent, and return. To your first love.

SPEAKER_02 31:41

Right. It's all the result of wrong thinking.

SPEAKER_05 31:44

All of it. None of this that he's that we've talked about here is it is overt sin.

SPEAKER_02 31:50

Right.

SPEAKER_05 31:50

Nobody has just walked off into sin here.

SPEAKER_02 31:53

No. It's just wrong thinking.

SPEAKER_05 31:55

Wrong thinking and neglect and and just just not tending the fire.

SPEAKER_02 32:00

That's it. That's it.

SPEAKER_05 32:03

Nobody has done anything at this point that's just overtly rebellious.

SPEAKER_06 32:06

Right.

SPEAKER_05 32:13

That's heavy.

SPEAKER_02 32:16

I know. I know in the book of 1 Samuel, chapters 1, chapter 2, I think into chapter 3, is the story of Eli and his two sons, Tophane and Phineas.

SPEAKER_03 32:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 32:30

The Lord dealt with him, and Eli was dealing with apathy.

SPEAKER_03 32:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 32:38

To the point the Bible says that he eventually let the light go out.

SPEAKER_05 32:43

Which is what it just said.

SPEAKER_02 32:44

Which is what it said.

SPEAKER_05 32:45

The lampstand will go out.

SPEAKER_02 32:47

He eventually let the light go out. And because he did not deal with the own apathy in his life, it filtered over into his sons.

SPEAKER_05 32:58

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 32:59

Right? His offspring.

SPEAKER_05 33:00

And they walked in overt sin.

SPEAKER_02 33:02

And they walked in overt sin, exactly. At the end, God had to judge him and his entire bloodline. To the point that when Samuel prophesied to him as a young boy, that prophecy was in the end, your seed is going to be cut off from the earth. Your bloodline will be no more. Because you did not steward your heart. And you maintained being unresponsive to my voice.

SPEAKER_03 33:39

Unresponsive. Unresponsive.

SPEAKER_02 33:47

Right. Prolong the darkness creates blindness. You can live in a place of willful ignorance for so long that you literally become blind.

SPEAKER_05 34:03

I remember, do you remember when we went into the Lost Sea? There's this place in I think Tennessee, and it's an underground cave, and it's called the Lost Sea. It's fascinating. But there's this lake under there.

SPEAKER_02 34:14

Yeah, it's like a mile under there or something.

SPEAKER_05 34:16

Yeah. It's utter darkness.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:18

Um, and they take you on these tours down there, and you can get on this boat and go go on to the little lake down there. And you can, it's a glass bottom boat, so you can see the fish down there. And they have milky white eyes. Right. And I remember asking, what is up with these fish? They are strange. And he's like, they're blind.

SPEAKER_02 34:38

They're trapped.

SPEAKER_05 34:39

Why are they blind? He's like, they live in darkness. They live in darkness. Their eyes have adjusted to the darkness and now they can't see their blind.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

They're blind.

SPEAKER_05 34:47

And they will forever be blind.

SPEAKER_02 34:49

Right.

SPEAKER_05 34:50

Right? But we don't have to forever be blind.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 34:52

He can put eyes out on our eyes and heal the blindness. Amen. And return us from the blindness.

SPEAKER_02 35:00

That's what he said. He said, repent.

SPEAKER_05 35:02

Repent. Remember.

SPEAKER_02 35:03

Remember.

SPEAKER_05 35:04

Remember your first love.

SPEAKER_02 35:05

Right.

SPEAKER_05 35:05

Remember that I'm at the door. Remember my sin. Right?

SPEAKER_02 35:09

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 35:10

And then respond. Yeah, that's it. Repent. And return. Run to the door. Just run to the door.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

That's it.

SPEAKER_03 35:19

But if left undealt with, it will cause blindness.

SPEAKER_02 35:23

It will cause blindness. And will affect many. Don't think you'll be the only one affected by your hypothesis. You will not. You will not.

SPEAKER_05 35:32

That's exactly right. Look at Hebrews 5.11 now, because that leads us right into the next one. Hebrews 5.11. Because if the result of it is eventual blindness, we need to guard from that.

SPEAKER_02 35:53

Yeah. We have much to say about this topic, although it is difficult to explain. Because you have become too dull and sluggish to understand. For you should already be professors, instructing others by now. But instead, you need to be taught from the beginning the basics of God's prophetic oracles. You're like children still needing milk and not yet ready to digest solid food. For every spiritual infant who lives on milk is not is not yet pierced by the revelation of righteousness.

SPEAKER_05 36:28

Right? He's saying there that apathy actually, before it leads to blindness, it dulls your perception. Absolutely. Your ability to discern, your ability to perceive, it dulls it. Right? Truth may still be spoken to you, but resonance is lost.

SPEAKER_02 36:47

But solid food is for the mature whose spiritual senses perceive heavenly matters.

SPEAKER_05 36:53

Spiritual senses perceive.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

And they have been adequately trained by what they have experienced to emerge with understanding of the difference between what is truly excellent and what is evil and harmful.

SPEAKER_05 37:06

Exactly. Apathy prevents that.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

Right, right.

SPEAKER_05 37:10

This is why we have to shake ourselves now. When we see ourselves apathetic in areas, shake yourself, awaken, awaken the sleeper, rise from the dead. Christ will give you light. Run to the door.

SPEAKER_02 37:21

That's it.

SPEAKER_05 37:22

Throw the covers back. Run to the door then. Because it will actually cause your perception, your discernment to become dull.

SPEAKER_02 37:30

In the state of apathy, you're gonna have to make yourself uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_07 37:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 37:35

And that's the issue that a lot of people have with, especially our culture.

SPEAKER_07 37:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 37:39

Well, if it's not comfortable, don't do it. If it don't make you happy, don't do it. Oh Lordy gracious.

SPEAKER_05 37:45

I remember the other night Nathan and I got into the bed and we had to sleep with two fans on. We have two fans that we leave on in the night. We can't sleep without them running because of the noise.

SPEAKER_06 37:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 37:55

And we both got in the bed and I was comfortable. I was in my spot. I had my feet tucked in, my covers around me. I was all cocooned. I was so comfy, right? And I was like, oh, I forgot to turn the fan on. And he's like, I just leave it. It cost us. Two or three o'clock in the morning, neither one of us were asleep. We were both wide awake. And I said to myself, I should have thrown the covers back and got up and done what I knew to be right.

SPEAKER_06 38:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:26

I should have turned on the fan. But because I didn't put myself in a place of discomfort momentarily, I laid in discomfort for three hours.

SPEAKER_02 38:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 38:38

It cost me three hours when it could have cost me 30 seconds.

SPEAKER_02 38:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:42

And some discomfort.

SPEAKER_02 38:43

Right.

SPEAKER_05 38:45

We do that in life all the time.

SPEAKER_02 38:47

Well, we do that in relationship.

SPEAKER_05 38:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 38:50

This is what he's talking about. Apathy affects how you respond and see God and how you respond and see people.

SPEAKER_03 38:58

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 39:00

You know? And so it's not just affecting us.

SPEAKER_03 39:04

No.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

It's affecting all of our relationships.

SPEAKER_05 39:07

That's right. That's right. Look at Proverbs 19, 15. There's two more of these that I want to point out that are just so really good. And this is uh this is talking about slothfulness or laziness. Um and sometimes there's there's that too that causes apathy.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

Go ahead, be lazy and passive. But you'll go hungry if you live that way.

SPEAKER_05 39:38

Exactly. So he's saying here that physical laziness mirrors spiritual passivity.

SPEAKER_06 39:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:45

Right? Both lead to starvation of the soul. And then finally, 2 Timothy 1 and 6.

SPEAKER_02 40:07

I'm writing to encourage you to fan into a flame and rekindle the fire of the spiritual gift God imparted to you when I laid my hands upon you.

SPEAKER_05 40:17

That's a responsibility of ours to rekindle it.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

To rekindle it.

SPEAKER_05 40:21

So the gifts and the graces on our life, they have to be rekindled.

SPEAKER_02 40:25

That's it.

SPEAKER_05 40:25

Apathy is the cooling of the inward fire through through neglect or despair, the things that we just talked about, comfort. But it's up to us to rekindle those things.

SPEAKER_02 40:36

And I think there are a handful. I heard a message a few years back, I think it was by Vlad Subchak. And he was talking about this subject, and I think he pointed out four or five different things that helps us to rekindle and to keep the fire going. He said, dive into prayer.

SPEAKER_07 40:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

Right? Spend time in prayer. Spend time in the Word. Spend time with the Lord. Spend time in His Word. Um fasting. Spend time fasting. And be a generous giver.

SPEAKER_07 41:07

Oh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:09

He said, these are how the born-again believer keeps the fire rekindled and burning and the fervency alive and the heat hot in your life.

SPEAKER_05 41:18

Those things will keep every every single day in your life from being a Tuesday.

SPEAKER_02 41:22

Right.

SPEAKER_05 41:23

It's just one after the next after the next. And everything's the same.

SPEAKER_02 41:27

And all has to do with pursuing him.

SPEAKER_05 41:28

It does.

SPEAKER_02 41:29

Right? Seek first the kingdom. Or rather than the word first, I love the other translation, above all else.

SPEAKER_05 41:36

Above all else, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:38

Seek God's kingdom. What is the kingdom? The realm in which the will of the king is done.

SPEAKER_03 41:43

Right.

SPEAKER_02 41:43

So seek that.

SPEAKER_03 41:44

Above all else.

SPEAKER_02 41:45

Above all else in his righteousness. Right. Or what is that at its core? Sonship.

SPEAKER_03 41:49

Sonship.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

Right? And right position.

SPEAKER_03 41:51

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 41:52

And then everything will be added.

SPEAKER_03 41:56

That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_02 41:57

It's the beautiful consequence that comes as the result of those two being rightly aligned and sought after.

SPEAKER_05 42:04

Absolutely. In Numbers 21, we see the story of the Israelites, and it says something really important. It says, and they grew impatient and spoke against God. And they were exhausted. What began as exhaustion turned into cynicism, which turned into accusing God. Right? And I think that we have to guard against those kinds of things. So even weariness and exhaustion, remember we talked about apathy doesn't always it doesn't come just from overt sin. Sometimes it comes from being exhausted and not tending to yourself properly.

SPEAKER_02 42:53

Right. Moses, instead of speaking to the rock, striking the rock.

SPEAKER_05 42:57

Because he was weary of the people because he was weary.

SPEAKER_02 43:00

He was tired.

SPEAKER_05 43:01

That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_02 43:02

You know, where there's no consequences.

SPEAKER_05 43:04

That's exactly right. That's right. In 1 Samuel 30, when David comes back from Ziklag, the whole town or comes back to Ziklag from battle. The whole town's burnt down. His whole entire family, kids, wives missing. They lost everything. But it says, but David encouraged himself in the Lord. He we see a picture of somebody resisting apathy right there.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 43:30

By re-entering into communion and worship.

SPEAKER_02 43:33

Well, I think one of the ways, too, that we fight apathy is we have to rightly deal with disappointment.

SPEAKER_03 43:40

That's a truth.

SPEAKER_02 43:41

You know what I'm saying? And because I don't know that we we really see disappointment as destructive as it really is.

SPEAKER_03 43:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:50

You know what I'm saying? But it really is destructive.

SPEAKER_03 43:55

To our core.

SPEAKER_02 43:56

To our core.

SPEAKER_03 43:58

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 44:00

Well it uh it it leads to it leads to blindness. And um we have to remember that apathy's not it's not disbelief, it's disconnection.

SPEAKER_06 44:12

There we go.

SPEAKER_05 44:15

That's it. It's it's disconnection. It's coming disconnected. Um it's it's like you know having a a hot coal inside you that uh fades. It it was it was hot, it was burning brightly before, but now it fades, right? But here's the thing. Every you look in a fireplace, and if there's a if there's a coal in there that's got even the tiniest bit, all you have to do is blow on it. It remembers what flame is.

SPEAKER_02 44:51

Yeah, it just needs a little rule.

SPEAKER_05 44:53

It does, it just needs a little wind, a little blowing on it, right? It will remember flame.

SPEAKER_02 44:58

Right.

SPEAKER_05 44:59

Every ember remembers flame and it will combust again. Just blow on it just a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 45:05

Amen.

SPEAKER_05 45:06

That's it. It's the return to presence. Just blow on the emperor just a little bit, it will reflame.

SPEAKER_02 45:14

So I think it's really big that we we need to understand what we need to take from this. Is it's not God's job to make you hungry. No, it's not his job to make you thirsty. Now he will satisfy your thirst. Yes, he will satisfy your hunger. So it's an improper prayer for you to go, Lord, make me hungry, make me thirsty.

SPEAKER_06 45:33

Right.

SPEAKER_02 45:34

Make me want you. No. No. And so we have to we have to rightly see that and rightly manage that.

SPEAKER_05 45:42

That sounds to me like uh like going to a witch doctor and asking them to cast a spell on this guy to make him fall in love with you.

SPEAKER_00 45:50

Right. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 45:52

Isn't that what that sounds like? Make me love you. I I want you to to make that guy over there fall in love with me. I want you to make me love you. What?

SPEAKER_02 46:03

Here's the thing. I don't read my Bible because I enjoy reading my Bible.

SPEAKER_04 46:08

Right.

SPEAKER_02 46:08

I'm not a huge reader. Read I know I I mean I I'm just not read my Bible because I want to know him and I love him.

SPEAKER_03 46:16

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 46:16

Do you see what I'm saying? This is why my pursuit is after him. So if it costs me some discomfort in my flesh, you know, to do something that, you know, I just don't enjoy.

SPEAKER_07 46:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 46:29

What a small price to pay.

SPEAKER_05 46:31

Well, Michael, if if if there's no condemnation here. God's not reprimanding, even. God's inviting for renewal.

SPEAKER_06 46:42

Right.

SPEAKER_05 46:43

Because in Isaiah, he says somewhere in Isaiah, I will not snuff out the wick of a dimly lit candle. It might have, it might have grown a little bit cold, but I'm not going to completely snuff it out with just a little flame. It just needs a just a little wind on it, right? But that's up to us.

SPEAKER_02 47:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 47:07

He's the one, like in the temple, he's the one who brought the fire.

SPEAKER_02 47:10

He brought it initially.

SPEAKER_05 47:12

He brought it. He brought it when he saved me, right? He kindled the flame in my heart, the love for him, the adoration, the devotion for him. He kindled that. Now it's my job to tend it.

SPEAKER_02 47:22

Tend it, keep it burning. That's it.

SPEAKER_05 47:24

That's right. Because apathy is not disbelief. It's just disconnection. But it's serious.

SPEAKER_02 47:31

It is very serious. Because he says in um John 15, I believe it is, that those that are severed from the vine. And he's not talking about lost.

SPEAKER_05 47:43

He's not.

SPEAKER_02 47:44

He's not referring to lost people. No. He's talking about those who, like we're talking about, have lost their first love.

SPEAKER_07 47:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

Right?

SPEAKER_07 47:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:53

And so we have to rightly understand what he's what he's doing. But it is a serious thing.

SPEAKER_03 47:58

It is.

SPEAKER_02 47:59

You know? And he wants us rightly connected.

SPEAKER_03 48:03

He does.

SPEAKER_02 48:04

He wants us to bear much fruit.

SPEAKER_03 48:07

He does.

SPEAKER_02 48:08

He wants us to hunger and thirst after him.

SPEAKER_03 48:12

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 48:13

Right? Paul makes this beautiful statement. It's just a conundrum. It's a beautiful mystery. I'm apprehended by that, I'm apprehending. Right?

SPEAKER_05 48:23

We're chasing each other.

SPEAKER_02 48:25

Yeah. I'm chasing him, but he's overcoming me, overwhelming me. Right? And so, but you know what? We're the ones that need to initiate that. We need to start chasing him.

SPEAKER_05 48:36

Well, that's it. Apathy. When we see apathy, it just signals that love needs oxygen.

SPEAKER_02 48:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:44

Just just blow on the on the embroidery.

SPEAKER_02 48:46

James 488 says, draw near to me.

SPEAKER_03 48:50

Right. And I'll draw.

SPEAKER_02 48:51

And I'll respond about drawing near to you.

SPEAKER_03 48:54

Right. Reconnect.

SPEAKER_02 48:56

Right. But we need to make the move.

SPEAKER_03 48:58

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 48:59

We do.

SPEAKER_03 49:00

That's right.

SPEAKER_05 49:01

I love this. I hope that you have uh enjoyed the discussion on apathy. And even more than that, I hope that it compels and provokes you to look and to see, are there areas in me that I'm apathetic in? And if there are, address them. Remember your first love. Repent and return. So that you don't become spiritually blind, your conscience isn't desensitized, so that when he leaves his sin home the doorknob, you're undone by it.

SPEAKER_03 49:46

Amen. You want to pray over us.

SPEAKER_02 49:50

Father, we ask you tonight, break up the fallow ground of our hearts. Those hardened places, Lord, those calloused places, those dull places, those insensitive places, Lord. Help us to feel again. Help us to feel rightly. Help us to open ourselves. Cause us, Lord, help us to want to be, help us to be vulnerable. Lord, we want to be vulnerable. Help us to be vulnerable, Lord, and help our unbelief. Help our unbelief, Lord. And Lord, we just uh we ask you even now, Lord, to I'm reminded, Lord, that as Jesus was walking on the road to Emmaus, that Lord, the two that was walking with him said, our hearts burned within us, but we didn't know. We didn't know who he was talking to. All we knew is that our hearts burn within us. And Lord, we're wanting our hearts to burn again. And so, Lord, I pray that those that heard the message tonight, Lord, that they would do the work that would help rekindle the fire inside their hearts, Lord, that they would meditate, God, that they would contemplate, Lord, that they would help this word to be integrated, Lord, into their into their lives, God, that it would stir up inside them, Lord, of fervency and desire and hunger and thirst, Lord. And I thank you for that, Lord. We right now in the name of Jesus, I stir up, like Paul said, Lord in Timothy, I stir up right now the gifts, the graces, the callings, the anointings. I stir up right now by the Spirit those things that have been laid dormant in you, and I command those things to be brought to life and for you to remember, to remember who he is and how good he is. Yes, and that how his heart is turned toward you. And in the name of Jesus, we pray this. Amen.

SPEAKER_05 51:47

Amen. Thank you so much for joining us. Uh, please make sure and like and subscribe, and we appreciate that so much. Also, check out Lifeline's website at LifelineresourceDevelopment.com and our school of ministry, Lifeline School of Ministry.org. Until next time, we love you and be blessed.

SPEAKER_00 52:16

Thank you for joining the Lifeline. Remember, healing happens in the heartbeat between surrender and restoration.

SPEAKER_08 52:25

Join us again for another heartfelt conversation that brings light and revelation. See you next time.