IN RECOVERY - The Ark House Podcast - S2 EP 1 - Feat ULRIKA JONSSON

IN RECOVERY - THE ARK HOUSE PODCAST is back for its Second Season

A companion guide for those on their addiction recovery journey, we also want to offer advice and support for those still suffering and offer solutions for those who just want to know more. This is a well-being podcast produced and presented by people with lived experience who want to carry the message of recovery. 

Welcome to the first episode in Season Two. We are so grateful you are joining us and would ask you to spread the word. 

Every episode we speak to someone in the spotlight who shares their struggles with addiction. To kick off our new season is the iconic TV presenter ULRIKA JONSSON who secretly battled with alcoholism and wants to raise awareness of a struggle that so many face. She joins us on the week of her 2nd sobriety birthday - a huge congratulations to her. 

Former resident JESS joins us to talk openly about her battle with a ketamine addiction. She is passionate about getting the word out there of the dangers people face when they start their journey with this drug. Jess was taking 20 grams a day at one point and had to have life saving operations. Her story is inspirational and incredible and we are proud of her.

This week's recovery hack comes from regular guest MICHAEL WATERS who is a Group Worker at Forward Leeds. He is here to talk about recognising our ego states which are our organised, consistent patterns of thinking, feeling, and behaving that make up our personality at any given time.

This podcast shares real conversations, lived experience and honest stories of hope and transformation within the recovery community. From personal journeys to professional insights into addiction and treatment, IN RECOVERY gives a powerful voice to those walking the path of change. 

Join our recovery conversation..

If you or a loved one need help from addiction, please know there is help. Reach out and speak to Ark House today....

PHONE 01723 371869

EMAIL info@arkhouserehab.co.uk

ADDRESS 15 Valley Road, Scarborough, Y011 2LY

WEBSITE www.arkhouserehab.co.uk

FACEBOOK  @arkhouserehabltd

INSTAGRAM @in_recovery_podcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:20

Welcome to season two of the Alack House Podcast in Recovery, a companion guide for those in recovery from addiction.

SPEAKER_05 0:27

Or for any of you just wanting to hear more about the stories and science behind recovery.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

We are back with inspirational journeys from from a residents of Alack House.

SPEAKER_05 0:36

As well as some of the country's biggest celebrities who have battled their own addiction issues.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

Plus, we have game-changing tips and advice from some of the most amazing people in the recovery community. They are here to represent the voices of individuals, families, and communities affected by addiction.

unknown 0:59

In recovery.

SPEAKER_05 1:04

Sam and myself are both in recovery ourselves, starting our journeys right here at Ark House Rehab, which has helped thousands of people to change their lives since opening up their doors 30 years ago.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

We have over 25 brand new episodes coming your way.

SPEAKER_05 1:19

Three interviews on every show to listen to wherever you are and whenever you want. Thanks for joining our recovery conversation.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

And welcome to season two of In Recovery!

SPEAKER_05 1:39

We have a very special guest under our Recovery Spotlight to kick off Series 2. Not least because this week sees her celebrate her second year of being sober, a huge achievement. In the late 80s and early 90s, she was one of the UK's biggest TV stars. 14 million tuned in every week to the Gladiators, and she was integral to the groundbreaking show Shooting Stars. She won Celebrity Big Brother and is an icon to a generation. She also lived through years of what she describes as an invisible alcohol addiction. She is now proudly sharing her journey to raise awareness about hidden alcoholism and to show it's possible still to change even later in life. We are all about breaking the stigma of addiction on the podcast. So it's a pleasure to welcome the brilliant Ulrika Johnson to In Recovery. Hello.

SPEAKER_04 2:28

Hello, I'm I'm very good. Thank you for all that. I'm not sure what I'm an icon, but you know, but I'll take that. I'll take that.

SPEAKER_05 2:36

Let's just talk about, you know, back in the time in the sort of the 80s and 90s. You were a really big star. So how did you cope with that?

SPEAKER_04 2:44

With enormous difficulty, I would say. I think because the public sees somebody who is in control of their life, you're showing off, you're being funny. It's almost like becoming a different person. And so you've you've got this kind of battle between the public you and the private you. I would be seen out drinking and messing around with the lads, and you know, and then of course my love life was splastered everywhere and whatever. So I felt like the public didn't really know who who I was.

SPEAKER_05 3:16

So your good friend, alcohol, it kind of helped you through that time?

SPEAKER_04 3:21

I don't have a long history of alcohol abuse or addiction. But I think the way that I used to drink was binge drinking. You know, my drinking really only got bad, like awful, in the two years running up to sobriety. Before that, I had periods where I would not drink at all if I had a big job coming up as very, very disciplined. But I I always knew that I used it as well to change my it's a mood alterer, not helped by the fact that shooting stars was sponsored by a very large beer company, and we went on tour. So, like, yeah, I saw alcohol as fun, but as something that could turn me, it would ease that bridge between the sort of private me and the public me.

SPEAKER_05 4:06

It pr that's where it progressed from me. I'd use it every now and again to I started using it every day.

SPEAKER_04 4:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 4:13

Um, and I I suppose what I've learned in this program is it is a progressive illness.

SPEAKER_04 4:18

Yeah. I think this whole thing about it being a progressive illness is so, so important because I only sort of picked up drinking on a sort of regular basis during lockdown. And it was fun. And I love being a bit hedonistic and a bit crazy. But then it really, really pulled the rug from out of my feet because I was no longer in control. And I remember those moments going, you know, you shouldn't be doing this. But I I had absolutely no control over that.

SPEAKER_05 4:48

I think the thing around alcohol and drugs for me was that I'd lost the power of choice. This was my solution because that was the only solution I knew at that time.

SPEAKER_04 4:57

So yeah, it's it's it's extraordinary, and I feel like despite it getting progressively worse, I was still quite baffled how quickly that downward slope was. The drinking in the day became earlier and earlier. So I never thought it would be me. I never thought that would be me. I mean, and even the conversations I used to have in my head while I was drinking, like when I was on my knees in the cupboard under the stairs, swigging from the bottle, going, What are you doing? What's become of you? What has become of you? And then it's like, well, I'll drink to kill that feeling.

SPEAKER_05 5:34

It brings us all to that same place, doesn't it, of isolation. You know, wherever I was just by myself, just having what I needed to get through that particular day. You know, on the outside, we had a job, we had a car, we had a house, we had kids. Perceived on the outside, it was all okay.

SPEAKER_04 5:52

I was highly, highly functioning. My house was impeccable. My son was not wanting for food or things, I was on on it. And I quite enjoyed the lies too, or white lies, I don't know, they're probably big fat lies, but because it's kind of like creating a different world, a life, and well, that facilitated the drinking. I didn't recognize myself, but like you said, I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_05 6:20

Somebody taught me and said to me about secrets keep you sick, yeah. And and that was a big thing for me because I think I dug myself that many holes that I I could never see a way out anymore. You know, I I I got to a point where suicide looked really good for me. You know, it it seemed like, well, that's my way out.

SPEAKER_04 6:41

Hearing you talk there about wanting to end your life, I never made an attempt, but I I was deep, deep inside, I was hoping the drink would take me. That's the only way I can articulate it. As I was hoping that one day it would just be so bad that I wouldn't wake up. I was sitting down on the sofa and a friend of mine who was at that time, she was four years sober. It wasn't me that sent her a text message. Something sent her a text message. And I just said, I can't do this anymore. And she said, Oh my god, what's happened? Not thinking about the drink, she didn't think I was anywhere near sort of that. And I said, I just can't be doing it. She goes, Right, hop on a meeting, hop on a meeting now. And I hopped on this meeting and I cried my way through it. But she had obviously said to me, like, listen for the similarities, and there was so much in there, and from what people, all walks of life, all different ages, and I had so much identification with different people, and of course, they were so friendly and welcoming that I felt like I felt safe.

SPEAKER_05 7:49

I walked in here, and like you on Zoom, I walked into a room and I looked around this room and they were all doing little shares. And when I sat here full of snot, crying my eyes out for four days, I felt loved and I felt a warmth that I'd never felt before. And I'd felt as though I'd met my tribe.

SPEAKER_04 8:09

Yeah, you know, I really identify with that because the first in-person meeting that I went to, which is now my home meeting, and I just felt like I belonged.

SPEAKER_05 8:18

I guess I thought I knew everything about life. You know, today I'm teachable.

SPEAKER_04 8:23

It's so funny that you should touch upon that because I didn't need to work the steps. Why did I need to do that? I've had therapy for like I've I've done therapy on and off throughout my life. No one knows me better than myself. And now I am firmly of the belief that those steps are something that you know, there's so much in the program that should be taught in schools.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:50

I I I relay so much so many of the tools that I've learned and picked up on the way to my kids in conversations, subtly entering things in. The other day, my daughter said to me, she we were talking about a situation that I've got going on in my life, and I and she said, I think you're dealing with it really well, mum. And I said, Do you really? She goes, Yeah, you know, as you always say, Mum, you know, let go and let God. That was that was I mean, that was the thing for me. That was the big that was the massive game changer for me, was handing it over. But I can't control things and people. And when I did that, it it just completely changed me.

SPEAKER_05 9:29

It's one of those things, isn't it? When you when you let go, I I get a bit of freedom.

SPEAKER_04 9:34

Yeah, because it's exhausting being asked. It really is, you know. You're you believe that you're so carved out of stone, there's no way of changing the way you are, but there is. I think with working this program, it has the ability to change you as a person. It's just it's like I was waiting for this all my life. It's weird, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 9:57

Yeah, yeah, it's very sometimes you get scared.

SPEAKER_04 9:59

I get scared that it's all gonna go away, you know?

SPEAKER_05 10:03

I think it's great, like you said, into that we have an opportunity to live a second life. Most people don't get that opportunity. I guess from your point of view now, so how do you see the new world today?

SPEAKER_04 10:15

I guess as we like we always say is that that life will keep on throwing stuff at us. The huge difference is that I I deal with it in a comp in a completely different way. There's there is less reaction from me. There's always like a pause, and except for when I'm driving, obviously, then everyone's but that's allowed, I think. It's allowed. I went from not wanting to live, hoping the drink would take me, to now wanting to squeeze every moment out of life, not in a you know, dancing through the fields of the wheat fields of you know, it it's not that kind of thing, but really being aware of how how much time maybe I lost, and I I can't uh make that time up, but I can certainly so just this whole thing of being positive. I realize how negative I was. Uh you know, every single day, use it, you know, accepting the things I can't change. And I and I think there's part of me that somehow really uh missed having some sort of uh uh faith, especially when my dad died, which was very, very suddenly. And I remember, you know, a Jewish friend of mine talking about what they go through, they cover the mirrors, and for me, I said, Oh God, I feel so lost. I have nothing to fall back on, I have no guidance. And working the the program is now, you know, it isn't religious, it's a spiritual programme. And for me, that has been, you know, I found uh my belonging and I I will not be letting it go if I can help it. So we with you know, it's other it's other alcoholics that keep me sober. I couldn't do it on my own.

SPEAKER_05 12:09

I think the thing, you know, when you talk about this this program and the things that I've learned with regards to what my sponsors taught me is he taught me some really good phrases, stay out of the ring.

SPEAKER_04 12:20

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:21

Anything to do with WhatsApps, text messages, emails, don't respond in anger. Yeah, put them in your draft, put them in your draft box.

SPEAKER_04 12:30

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05 12:30

And then that thing about you know, this this simple life now. I mean, the day that I left treatment, I went for a I lived right next to the sea, and I went for a walk along the seafront, and I was on the phone to my mum and I was trying my eyes out. And she was saying, Are you alright? Are you all right? I went, Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just overwhelmed. I said, Because for 17 years I've walked around with my head down, not wanting to engage and speak to anybody. And I walked on the seafront and I said, I can hear kids on the beach, I can hear the waves, I can hear the seagulls, I can hear, I can smell fish and chips and all that stuff that I passed every day and and never even thought, felt, smelt any of it. And like you, I've got you know some amazing children that are back in my life that I'm there and available for them today. And if if that's all I do today, I'm alright with that.

SPEAKER_04 13:23

That thing of being present, I know all these expressions, and I I kind of don't like to use them, but I've been feeling that sort of more recently when you're exposed to kind of new situations, which I would have normally tried to cloud with with you know alcohol or whatever. It's just seeing that I can get through those situations, they may be pitifully nothing to someone else, but maybe a big thing for me. When I first got my sponsor, she said to me, And you'll be doing a gratitude list every morning. And I went, Yeah, right. And now it's it's as part of my life as cleaning my teeth or whatever else. I feel lost if I don't, and just even taking my cup of tea and sitting in the same spot, writing my list, and they may be silly, pathetic things, but they're really important to me. Yeah, and that has been integral to changing my mindset from a negative, woe is me, pity me, whatever. It's me looking at all the positives, no matter how small it is, if it's finding a parking space in the car park. I'm grateful for that. Like that is a day of success for me, and and I think also all the times when I feel like oh god, I don't want to do a meeting, or I don't want to go on a Sunday afternoon and leave her. That's the times I need to go. Yeah, and I never regret going to a meeting, they're always, you know, you always pick up something good, but and still learning, I still have so much to learn, and you know, it's just I'm still on this it is a journey, there's no destination, it's a journey, right? I'm I'm learning from you today, and I will learn from others, and so important.

SPEAKER_05 15:11

So, my last question to you if you were to speak to a younger eureka now, what would you say?

SPEAKER_04 15:18

I would say there is another way of living. There is another way of living, there's another way of thinking, and I think most importantly for me was would have been to believe in myself. I know this sounds like such a cliche thing to say, but I despite the career that I had, which was very much in the public eye, and you know, you're kind of showing off and looking confident, I had very low self-esteem and very low self-belief. And the kind of confidence that I have now, even in things like on a personal level, away from professional level on a professional level, but even so, knowing that no is a full sentence, like I don't need to justify myself. Oh I wish, I wish I'd well, there's no point in regretting the past, is there? Because I'm I'm grateful. I'm grateful for the drink taking me to where I am today. Without the drink, I would still be carrying on the way that I was before, you know. Or yeah, that there is another way, there's another way of thinking, and but I never believed that. I just never would have believed that that, you know, it's just it's a miracle. It really is. I'm a bit evangelical about it, and it's not something that will ever believe me. I have the step three prayer framed, written out by my bedside. I have it here in my office. I have you know, I just it's my life, and I'm proud of having it.

SPEAKER_05 16:51

That that step three prayer where it talks about relieve me of the bondage of self.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:56

You know, that that when I heard that, that was the the fundamental change in the whole of my recovery because that's what I'd always wanted. And then somebody said to me, to get to that, you just need to be brutally honest in a step four. Yeah, and then you need to go tell us tell your counsellors a stranger or whoever it is, and in that room at that moment in time, there was a counsellor and God, and I and everything came out, and um, it blew my mind. It blew my mind. I walked out of that room, and I can remember going back to my bedroom down the corridor here, and um I looked into the mirror, and for the first time at 49 years old, I kind of knew how I was. Today, that that prayer is you know the second prayer that I do every morning. Yeah, because that's what I want. Yeah, that's what I want, and yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:47

It's such a relief, isn't it? It's such a relief to, you know, to ask for that to be or to have it removed. Because I didn't re I don't think I realised that I was almost my own worst enemy, and that again, like you saying, when you lay out your life, I think it's a very little surprise that I was shaped the way that I was, but I don't have to be moving forwards, I don't have to be defined by that.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

Correct.

SPEAKER_04 18:16

I have to use things that have either happened to me that or that I've done as as a reason for for the way that I behave. There is a better way, you know? Yeah, and I keep saying to my children now, like, live it just live an honest life. Live an honest life. They're like, Oh god, here she goes again, but they do love it and they pick up on it, and I can hear it in their in their conversations, you know, and in the way that they talk, and um, and it like makes sense for everybody in the world, right?

SPEAKER_05 18:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for for spending the time with us today, and congratulations on your two-year sobriety.

SPEAKER_04 18:54

God willing, yes.

SPEAKER_05 18:56

All the best for the future.

SPEAKER_04 18:57

Thank you so much. I love it so much, it's been a pleasure. We could have gone on for days.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

In a recovery! It takes courage and determination to come into rehab. Making the decision to change our life can be daunting and scary. Every episode we speak to someone who has taken that decision and has chosen AC House to start their recovery journey. Today's guest left ARC house in 2025 and has since been for having on our new pack in life. It's a pleasure to welcome to a brand new season of In Recovery Jess. How are you today?

SPEAKER_03 19:36

Yeah, I'm really good, thank you, Sam. It's great to be here. I'm really happy.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

You are our first graduate kicking off our second season. Are you ready for the quick fight questions? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:46

Age? I'm 34. Where are you from? I'm from Bristol, but now I live near Oxford. And what brought you to workhouse? My addiction, my relapse into addiction again after sobriety.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

How long were you struggling with addiction?

SPEAKER_03 20:00

I started using at around 14 to 15. My mad uh using was probably from around 17 to 30s. I'm currently clean time. I'm seven months.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

Congratulations. So let's go back in time. When did you realise addiction had gotten old of you?

SPEAKER_03 20:18

I think when I started to notice that the people around me that did use were curious as to like what why I couldn't just quit the session and everyone would, you know, go back to their normal lives. I then got highlighted as somebody that that was quite problematic and started to receive like serious health issues from my using of Catman mostly. And then I kind of just ended up resulting to being quite a lone person where you know people I love just didn't want to be around me because they didn't want to watch it. You know, I'd notice my lies, I'd notice my d inconsistencies, not being able to show up for things like Mother's Day, and and that's probably when it hit me that my primary purpose is just to to find what I can get for myself, which at the time I don't think I acknowledged how selfish I was. That was priority. It was all about how and what I could get, you know. So yeah. So you mentioned ketamine there, and what was the health issues? It started off with overactive bladder, stomach uh cramps, I wouldn't be able to walk because of the gastroentritis where my stomach would provide more acid, try and break down the ketamine, I'd be sick, I couldn't eat, I'd be urinating multiple times throughout an hour. Um, I then couldn't hold my bladder. I became incontinent at the age of 20 throughout my whole 20s. It affected everything to do with my lifestyle. I wouldn't be able to go out, I'd have to wear incontinence pads, and then eventually, over years of long term abuse, um my nose started to deteriorate. I'd then experienced issues of. uh with my bowel where I couldn't um digest things through my bowel properly. I'd either get constipated or I'd just be in excruciating pain. Um and I got you know multiple surgeries to try and help me with my incontinence but I hadn't tackled the addiction issue so I was continuing surgeries with the hope that that would maybe be the stopping point for my using because when you do ketamine it is an anesthetic so it will you know reduce your pain symptoms and and allow you to have a bit more of a function but then it also adds to the issue that was originally there physically so is a catch 22 a vo vicious cycle where you think I'll use so I can function but then my consequences get greater physically then I need to use more and surgery unfortunately is not that accurately successful when you are still in active addiction and I eventually got a gastroextension on my bladder from my bowel tissue which is called a cystopath. And that's you know one of the most major options and they won't really give it to you if you haven't tried a lot of minor surgeries beforehand. But my body elevated off the table under one of the minor procedures the last one I did they pulled the procedure and offered me a life changing opportunity to do an extension on my bladder using bowel tissue but it's a nine and a half hour procedure and it's not something I would generally advise anyone to sort of use if they don't absolutely have to I had to weigh up whether or not my life would be more beneficial with the consequences of the op. There's a high possibility you can not make the procedure. You know it's affected my life greatly but today I do have a better lifestyle in terms of my bladder because I'm in abstinence but as soon as I use ketamine again even with that procedure my whole system shuts down. This is something that if you're going to experiment in has huge issues for later on in life if not immediately.

SPEAKER_02 24:11

With a clever head now can you look back and see how things started to spiral?

SPEAKER_03 24:15

That was what I used to get by and it gave me an ease and comfort for a lot of years and then you know I got the gift of desperation because it stopped working on me. You know I couldn't sustain a lifestyle like that anymore and I wanted to when I wanted the pain to go I would use and it wouldn't work. Um so I can see looking back but at the time I didn't know it was going to result in this you know I didn't understand what I suffered with. I just saw it as why can they be normal and I can't everyone would say why are you doing what you're doing? Why would you do that? Why would you do something that makes you wet yourself well you tell me because I don't know and I wake up every morning and I say to myself I ain't gonna do this again and then I do it and I know it's killing me and I know it's causing me not a nice lifestyle with my physical health especially and I know people don't want to be around me but I still do it. So today I don't I don't have to wonder what that answer is I I kind of know which is nice.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

How did you find yourself coming into our house?

SPEAKER_03 25:11

So I I remember begging for help and saying to my mum like I just want out and she'd give me ultimatums that I couldn't keep and I was in and out of hospital with physical issues with my kidney as a result of using I was sniffing probably around about 20 grams a day. I'd been arrested my mental health was rapidly declining I hadn't seen my children I missed them but I knew I was incapable and I begged my mum and said please I just want someone to look after me and through the fellowship that I was in and I'm in again today they advised me that arc and by the grace of God my mum rang Richard and basically said she is going to die what do we do and they you know picked me up the level of care that I received in that vulnerable moment has beat any other experience I've had in treatment but I do remember walking up the stairs on the 3rd of July at 1139 had no clothes no I had no shoes I'd just literally gone and I had all my drugs at home and I remember thinking like I I'm not meant to be here yet because my addiction would try and control and isolate and I am grateful to be alive because if I hadn't have come that day I truly believe I would have been dead but it's because of the staff that I stayed really because they were recovering addicts like myself and they knew what I'd been through and they knew how to cater to me.

SPEAKER_02 26:44

As we know leaving rehab is another huge milestone in the journey of recovery how was it for you?

SPEAKER_03 26:50

Even though I'd made a massive amount of progress and I'd really got stuck into the way things were in the routine and the disciplines which I needed so you know I I vocalised I wasn't ready and an opportunity was presented to me about extending my time and I was truly grateful that that had happened and I ended up staying and by the time I then was meant to leave I felt ready like you just have to tap into that gut got conscience and when you know you'll know it's the right time because otherwise we get institutionalised we don't want to leave it's a big world out there we're used to that comfort and there is a massive parallel between coming in being terrified to then being terrified about leaving but luckily this is a treatment centre that puts the right tools in place for you to have that smoother exit and have the beauty of aftercare so you know when I left it was a beautiful day because I felt loved and supported and understood and connected and a part of something that I hadn't ever felt in previous treatment centres. I I felt almost like a number before a statistic in their company and here I felt I'm Jess and I'm a recovered catman addict that has worked really hard and has now still got communication and relationships with people in a positive light. If you don't feel ready or you do feel ready then there's always the support and that's what's different and that's what I'm grateful for.

SPEAKER_02 28:19

Get into the present what does your recovery look like now?

SPEAKER_03 28:21

You know I have a functioning household I'm up to date with my bills I can manage my money I am honest I don't have the ability to manipulate in ways that will benefit me. I'm able to be able to be accountable when my behaviour because look recovery for me is not perfect. Like I will go into days where my mental health's not great but I have the network to be able to pull out of that quite quickly today and you know when I wake up I do not think about drugs. I get up and I look after my son you know clean my house just normal things that I never I used to watch out the window with psychosis from when I used to make crack and I used to think how are they just walking down the road like they're going for a coffee they're on their bike how do I do that how do I do that? And now I'm able to do things like that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:17

Right are you ready for the final quick fight questions?

SPEAKER_03 29:20

Yeah meditation or sports I say sports for me but medit meditation is key to recovery. A hobby you have always wanted to try um I do want to do a skydive yeah it's not maybe a hobby but I do want to do a skydive one thing that you were proud of recently my custody battle and being able to look social and I know I'm not lying to him um not have to fear the results for my hair strand you know trusting in my process one thing you were grateful for today. I'm very grateful to be alive and to be able to carry the message not only of recovery but to be able to create awareness on my specific drug choice and how damaging that is and I'm grateful to be able to have known the people that I've lost through this illness. Yeah so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

And finally if you could give a younger Jess some advice what would it be?

SPEAKER_05 30:17

Don't be so hard on yourself because you know this is an illness I was suffering with and I just thought I was not a good person and that and it makes me a bit emotional but you know just to tell her that you know if you keep keep trying at some point it will happen and it's not you it's not bad you're not a bad person you're you're a good person and you will get there if you get if you get the help you need and you can identify what you suffer with that's what I'd say beautiful so much for coming on thank you and congratulations thank you so much every episode we talk to someone within the recovery community to give advice to those who are looking to make a change to their lives or just want to know more about addiction and the journey after. Joining us back on season two is the group worker from Five Ways which is the abstinence service from Forward Leads where people can drop in daily for different courses and check-in groups. He gave us some game changing tips in season one and he's back for more. It's a pleasure to say hello again to Michael Waters. Hello right to see you again the summer is now here. I guess people think that the dark nights and Christmas celebrations are hard but I also understand that the sun can be a real trigger.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

You're absolutely right the kind of isolation and the drabness of winter is an obvious trigger but situations that we're used to using have given us this learned reflex through repetition right that conditioning us into craving whenever we face that setting then the sun's like a massive one of those for a lot of people. Long term of course you can't avoid the sun you can't avoid social situations altogether. So it's worth trying to expose ourselves to those triggers and kind of rewrite those associations slowly over time. The main thing is just to look out for that trigger stacking. You know if you're already stressed if you're already bored that day maybe it's not a great time to go to the pub.

SPEAKER_05 32:14

So we're starting today with looking at how we think feel and behave and to do this we are chatting about ego states which I know suggests our personality is divided into three parts. Tell me more.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

Yeah so we're talking about ego states this is an idea from a psychological model called transactional analysis. Now it sounds complex doesn't it transactional analysis but transactions in this context it just means how we interact with other people. So why is it important to know more about these things in recovery? I think it can be really useful to get to grips with because it helps us spot patterns in our own behaviour that we might not have been aware of or we might not have realized were causing us problems. For example if you always find yourself people pleasing or if you're constantly trying to rescue people or you tend to position yourself as the victim a lot. TA, that's transactional analysis, it can help us get a handle on these dynamics and how they've set up psychologically and it can help us get out of our own way a bit. Let's go through all three ego states starting with parent ego. So the parent ego state is basically us replaying old behaviours and ways of interacting that we've copied from authority figures growing up.

SPEAKER_05 33:18

So when you find yourself sort of telling someone off or criticising someone the other side of it as well kind of nurturing doing a bit of caregiving you're normally operating from that parent ego state those learned behaviours those learned feelings I I'm certainly a product of my father in a in a lot of mannerisms that I that I have and I think in a lot of way I I speak and interact with people some of them take a lot have taken a lot of time for me to process and understand the positive thing today is that I can recognise it and act on it.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

That's exactly right in in many of those cases you'll be moving into that adult state right so the adult state rather than replaying our old reactions that we've learned we're actually in a calm measured kind of assertive headspace in the here and now the adult state it kind of has access to all the information in front of you all your knowledge from your past but it's responding rationally from the present rather than triggered by old feelings. Finally the child ego state the child state a bit like the parent one it's old learned behaviours but it's even older than the parent one like avoiding things when you're scared breaking down and crying when you're lonely all these kind of things that a child would do. We do them all the time in adulthood as well and that's your child ego state learned patterns from our childhood.

SPEAKER_05 34:27

That's fascinating is that that's just really really triggers me now I still live in a lot of fear and a lot of that fear I think is inherent from my childhood that I can't pro I still can't process today.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

That's exactly it and it's those it's our emotional reactions to stuff because it tends to be when we're upset about something so a lot of our child state is concerned with like wanting to find safety.

SPEAKER_05 34:45

So why is this so important to us?

SPEAKER_00 34:47

I mean from those descriptions you'd be forgiven for thinking that the goal is to like ditch the old ones ditch the old tapes and just have adult only you know and but it's not it's just to become aware of when you're in each one. If you imagine that you're like driving along focused you're in the moment paying attention to your surroundings that's adult mode right now let's say somebody pulls out in front of you at a junction how do you react? Not well what would you do?

SPEAKER_05 35:09

There'd certainly be a hand gesture and potentially something along the lines of what the fuck are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Yeah and people would react in different ways to that wouldn't they some people would be straight into that critical parent mode they shouldn't be doing that. That's where your anger comes in that's where there's some choice swearing going on that's where there's all these like self-righteous thoughts some people they'd just be scared right swear about the way it just try and avoid it they'd be in shock and that's straight into child mode isn't it that fear so it's different people based on their lived experiences would have different learned reactions to these certain situations.

SPEAKER_05 35:38

And I guess over a period of time I am changing very very slowly and I suppose what you're supporting here is that I don't have to ditch all the old all the old meat but I need to understand and have a conscience around how I'm reacting in certain situations and be more adult like that's it it's basically learning to be a grown up in ways that often we feel like we are being a grown up but it's it's actually just this kind of natural pattern.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

If you become aware that you're like regularly switched a child in a certain situation or a certain person keeps triggering that critical parent state in you can actually slowly teach yourself to respond differently in those situations. Making an effort to maybe be more empathetic or less judgmental or assert yourself more. Basically centering yourselves in the here and now and choosing your reactions appropriately the more deliberate we are in how we interact instead of just playing these old tapes we can iron out some of these old knee jerk reactions.

SPEAKER_05 36:29

So in terms of you know in your life today can you think of any examples of how you act differently now?

SPEAKER_00 36:36

I would say a lot of it is around assertiveness for me. I would definitely be quite sort of compliant child mode, you know as a shy kid but quite well behaved and that and that kind of backfires a lot in adulthood you know when you become too passive. A really interesting application of this for me personally it was within my own self-talk in my mind I would find myself slipping into critical parent mode when I was just slagging myself off. And when I recognized that's a kind of critical parent state and it's triggering this kind of wounded child in me. Once I started seeing it like that I realized this isn't just my personality this is an old habit um and I could start to pick it apart a bit then and be like no let's be the grown up kind of bringing in you know that's that's not a nice thing to say to myself you start to spot this everywhere as soon as you hear about the concept you know as you just walk around looking for it in the world but you really just want to read more about it. I've given us an overview of the basic ego states thing there. But look it up, read about it and get in some actual TA based therapy where you're chatting with a professional about this stuff you can get some mind blowing insights about stuff you were doing and stuff you don't want to be doing anymore. So people listening might think that it's obviously hard to change this repeated behaviour what's the solution to that you're right we're looking at behaviors that are conditioned through repetition for a long time and ask anyone in recovery, you know that's that's a hard thing to undo isn't it? But there's this other side to TA we talk about life scripts right it's basically a story you tell yourself a story you began to tell yourself at a certain time about how your life pans out and when we slip into those old parent and child modes it's often just to try and reinforce that familiar story isn't it and it's kind of fulfilling that life script sort of thing. There we go I'm back in a controlling relationship where I belong there we go I'm back at the place where I deserve to be so changing our patterns of behaviour it often involves the same kind of urge refusal as it does to stop taking drugs. You're kind of always filled with this urge to just go with the old behaviour and we need to just fight it tooth and nail like you would the urge to pick up. We experience the urge to act in our usual way that's sort of pre-programmed and fits that familiar story. And we've got to find ways to refuse that and do something different. It could be standing up for yourself in a conversation where you'd normally kind of agree and be passive. Something like that. Doing something different even though the outcome's unfamiliar and therefore quite scary. It's really uncomfortable in the moment but the more you do it in small ways you're kind of reprogramming yourself and you're breaking free from these stories.

SPEAKER_05 38:47

Well listen Michael thank you very much for that and thank you very much for your time today and I will no doubt speak to you soon.

SPEAKER_02 38:52

Thank you Richard in recovery Michael will be back later in the series with more game changing advice.

SPEAKER_05 39:04

Thanks to Ulrika and Jess for launching our new series and sharing their incredible stories.

SPEAKER_02 39:09

We are back with Strictly Come Dancing winner Area Budar next week.

SPEAKER_05 39:14

If you or a loved one are struggling with addiction issues then please know you are not alone. Reach out to our cows today.

SPEAKER_02 39:21

All of the details can be found in the episode description