IN RECOVERY - The Ark House Podcast - S2 EP 8 - Feat LUKE BATEMAN (Australian Rugby League)

Welcome to IN RECOVERY - THE ARK HOUSE PODCAST, your essential companion guide to recovery and well-being. 

IN RECOVERY - THE ARK HOUSE PODCAST is thrilled to be named one of the Best Podcasts by The Sunday Times (June 2026) and is riding high in the charts, as we continue our second season.  We are so grateful to everyone for their support. If you are listening on Apple - we would love you to leave us a review.

IN RECOVERY is a companion guide for those on their addiction recovery journey. We also want to offer advice and support for those still suffering and offer solutions for those who just want to know more. This is a well-being podcast produced and presented by people with lived experience who want to carry the message of recovery.

In this episode three more interviews with people who want to share their stories of hope, faith and courage as well as give game changing advice.  

LUKE BATEMAN is a former professional rugby league footballer playing in the Australian National Rugby League notably for the Canberra Raiders. He finished in the top 3 of I’m A Celebrity Get Me Out Of here and was one of the stars of Season 11 of The Bachelors Australia. In 2021 however checked into rehab after finally being able to come to terms with what had been a hidden gambling addiction for years,  that cost him almost 300,000 pounds. He is now walking a new path in recovery becoming one of Australia’s most unlikely book influencers and soon to be published author.

Former resident of Ark House KATIE is back to talk about her recovery journey. She was discharged from Ark House Rehab for breaking the rules and having a relationship whilst in treatment. She wants to share her story to help others who may be struggling. 

We are also joined by ROSE from New Vision in Bradford which is a free, confidential drug and alcohol service in West Yorkshire. We speak to Rose who is recovery co-ordinator about the Ket Effect - a campaign launched by New Vision to highlight the massive surge in popularity of Ketamine.

NEW VISION - THE KET EFFECT

Watch the Ket Effect campaign film

https://www.facebook.com/reel/767319296001026

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Are both in recovery themselves and so have lived experience of alcoholism and addiction. 

If you or a loved one need help from addiction, please know there is help. Reach out and speak to Ark House today....

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

In recovery.

unknown 0:06

In recovery.

SPEAKER_03 0:15

This is in recovery, the Anna Chouse podcast, your companion guide if you're on your recovery journey.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

Or if you simply want to hear the science and stories behind addiction, this is to help everyone live a better life.

SPEAKER_03 0:27

Coming up in today's episode, we put the spotlight on ketamine. A drug cat is having drastic consequences around the UK.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

We also speak to a former Australian rugby league player who lost hundreds of thousands of pounds to a gambling addiction. Luke Bayman is on the recovery spotlight. Welcome to In Recovery. Every episode we talk to someone in the spotlight about their own recovery journey. This week's guest is talking to us from the other side of the world, literally. He is a former professional rugby league footballer who notably played for the Canberra Raiders. He finished in the top three of I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here and was one of the stars of The Bachelor's Australia. In 2021, however, he checked into a rehab after finally being able to come to terms with what had been a hidden gambling addiction for years that cost him almost £300,000. He is now walking a new path in recovery, becoming Australia's most unlikely book influencer and soon to be a published author. It's a pleasure to welcome to the podcast Luke Bateman. Hello. Hello, thank you very much for that uh wonderful introduction. So let's just go back to the early days. You were born in Toowoomba, Queensland. Was sport always the dream?

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Yeah, so I was born in a place called Toowoomba, but I that was only because my hometown didn't have a like a maternity ward. So yeah, so I grew up I grew up on a farm outside of a little town called Miles. Miles is only a town of a thousand people, small rural farming town in Western Queensland. Your granddad played rugby league, your dad played rugby league, all your mates, your brothers, your cousins, like everyone just played rugby league. It was always a dream, you know. That was sort of the only, I suppose when you when you grew up in that place, that was kind of like one of the only real dreams that you could see as possible. So yeah. So growing up was always very athletic and and wanted to, you know, move into professional sports. And I and I was lucky enough to be good enough to do that.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

Yeah, we've spoken to a few big sports stars, and I think one of the running themes is that they seem to lose their identity once they become famous.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Yeah, absolutely. I think, just as men in general, I think that we all sort of live false identities in many ways due to the social and cultural conditioning and systems that we grew up within. But absolutely, there was definitely a degree of this is the character that people expect of me. This is the character that I need to live up to, and that's who I need to be, to be this elite sports person playing in the National Rugby League.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, my experience of that as I was I was brought up in Yorkshire, and you know, I was brought up by quite an influential person in my life, my dad, and he was very much, you know, you don't cry, uh, you don't show any emotion, and and you just get on with life, you know. So I I was brought up quite emotionless, I guess. You know, and quite a few of the sports stars we've been speaking to seemed to fall into addiction when the career was over. But yours was way before that, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Yeah, my addiction really started like t really badly in the like the halfway point of my career. Alcohol and drugs is embedded into elite sports and professional sports. I think it just comes with that sort of party atmosphere to it and party culture. It's you know, work hard, play hard. Gambling is embedded within our cultures, it's extremely normalized across all sectors, you know, not just professional sports. It is just so deeply embedded within sort of our identity as Australians. Like we are gamblers, you know. And once you got into elite sports, that's what we did to as a team, you know, that's that's how we bonded. That was how you got initiated into the team. It was like we were the, you know, go to the casino, we go down to the pub and we bet on the horses. That was just how how things rolled. And so from the age of 18, you know, when I went into this elite sporting system, it was your downtime was when you drank and gambled and and did and did drugs, you know. And so once I sort of worked my way up and started earning lots and lots of money and having a really good income, and it's just such a disposable income as well. You go, Well, I've got thousands and tens of thousands of dollars that are that's disposable, and I'm gambling all the time. So it's just, you know, it's the perfect storm for a gambling addiction to to strike.

SPEAKER_02 5:13

And what makes it worse, I suppose, is that Gumbern is normalized in our society.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

If you went down to the pub every Saturday and you saw someone in there, you know, doing drugs or with a needle in their arm, you would say, that person has a real problem. You know, we should get that person help or like someone should help that person. But but you go down to the pub every Saturday and you see the same person there gambling every Saturday, you know, it's just so, so incredibly normalized and encouraged within our society as something to do. That's a you know, it's just an encouraged pastime is to gamble. And because it's so normalized, it's just everywhere. And you don't think twice about it, as I said, you know, if you see the same person gambling every single weekend and no one would blink an eye.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

You know, my idea of an addict, you know, was somebody who was shooting a heroin, you know, on a park bench. You know, I suppose with gambling, if you're not down at the betting shop all day and night, you don't think you have a problem.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Yeah, but exact exactly the same. Like, you know, I was I'm a professional athlete, I'm earning $100,000 a year, I've got a nice house, a nice car, and you're going, well, you know, I'm not an addict because as you said, addicts are the people you you see down in the on the park bench who don't have a job, who who are asking you for five bucks when you walk past. You know, I'm I I'm not an addict because that's not me. And yeah, I I lose, I lose, you know, in the beginning, like, oh yeah, I probably lose a bit too much money on the punt, but you know, I I earn so much. And yeah, once again, like I've you know, the rest of my life is sorted, so it's not an issue.

SPEAKER_02 6:51

Yeah, and I think with cocaine, for me, it started socially. You know, I was having the time of my life, but quickly it just became me and a room and alone, and I was alone. Is that the same sort of progression for gambling?

SPEAKER_01 7:03

It is hilarious. You say that because it is the exact same thing. Yeah, it is the exact same. Like you start off and it's a bit of fun, you're out with mates, you're doing it socially, and then it slowly progresses, and you start doing it more and more secretly, you start doing it on your own, you start keeping secrets, you start telling lies, and then before you know it, it's just you like you said, you're at home, no one's there, it's a complete secret, you don't tell anyone about it, and it's just all on your own with no social involvement whatsoever.

SPEAKER_02 7:33

And do you remember sitting back and actually thinking, fuck, I've got a problem here?

SPEAKER_01 7:37

Yeah, I I remember I remember exactly when it happened. I a two-month period at the beginning of 2018 it was, and I just recently bought a bought an investment property, and I still had you know loads of money in the bank, and within the space of two months, I drained all like my entire bank. I had to ring my mum up and I'd say, Mum, I can't pay the mortgage on this place. And mum was like, What like what are you talking about? You know, like you had like a hundred thousand dollars in the bank, even after purchasing this property, and that was the moment for me, you know, that was at the start of 2008. Man, I didn't go to rehab until 2021. So that that three-year period was was very dark.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

Yeah, and for people listening, you know, if you were sat alone losing all that money, why would you carry on? Can you give us an insight into a gambler's brain?

SPEAKER_01 8:28

I think, you know, I think what's really insidious about gambling is that the next bet could actually change it. The next bet could be the one that wins and then fixes everything. And so when you're down, you know, you're down a thousand, five thousand, ten thousand dollars, you think, well, if I just like if I can back the right horse, it chang it, it it makes all of this right. This none of this ever happened, you know. If I could just get that right one. And I think that that's really what keeps you in that pursuit. And then all of a sudden, you know, you're literally at the you have you have no money, you have and you're you're broke, and you just like I there's no way out of this hole. You become I always tell people like addiction turns you into the best liar in the world, and you have lies upon lies upon lies, and you have these, you know, you have these complex lies where there's like a house of cards, and you have track of all of these lies, and you know, you know, everything you've told every person and how you need it all to stack up to like make sense so that you don't that this house of cards doesn't collapse and you deceive people and you manipulate people, anything that you can do to get money to gamble more.

SPEAKER_02 9:41

Yeah, I really resonated with that. You know, so many lies. You know, my behaviour was all over the place. You know, when I walked into Ark House, I still had a huge ego. I still, you know, still thought I was a banker. You know, I still thought I had a high-profile job. It wasn't until I sat down with people and listened to their stories, it became very humbling to me. It made me realize that you know, I actually identified as an addict, not a posh one, just an addict. And what happened then was my ego started to be deflated the more I was around other addicts and other alcoholics.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is, you know, that's in so hum. And I'm so glad you brought up ego because that's what I always say to people you know, people say, Well, you know, what was the best thing about recovery? Like, what did you learn in recovery? And I said, I said, all the all the 12-step meetings, all the therapy, like all the cancelling sessions, like none of that. I said, like that was all important. I said, but the most important thing that ever happened to me in recovery was that my ego just got absolutely destroyed, you know, and it was just and that was the best thing that uh ever happened.

SPEAKER_02 10:48

Yeah, and you and you mentioned you were paid a huge salary, you know, similar to me. You know, I thought I could buy my way out of trouble, but at the end, you know, it was a disaster for me because I would always have disposable income and I could use cocaine and buy cocaine quite frequently. Ultimately, uh, you know, that was my downfall.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

I think if you're vulnerable, it really exacerbates that vulnerability. Because you have, you know, if you're if when once you have that money that is just completely disposable, you go, well, like why not? That level of money really does exacerbate that vulnerability.

SPEAKER_02 11:27

So just tell me more about your journey into recovery and into rehab.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

It the the f it started in 2018, and then 20 nine, 2019 was just rock bottom for you know for 12 months. It was just horrendous. And then 2020, I started getting help, and I was a little sort of, you know, two steps forward, one step back for 2020. And then in 2021, I started feeling confident, I started to get more trust in myself, I really started to build a bit of momentum, and then I had a really bad relapse, and that that was finally, you know, my mum had been wanting me to go to rehab for 18 months at that point, and I think finally, even though my life was probably better than it had, like was probably the best it had been in sort of two years, that's how long it took me to uh build the courage within myself to say I'm gonna like I need to do this, you know, I need to do this because I just knew when I when I've been going well for three or four months, and then I had that fall off. I think that that was a bigger kick in the guts because I it was a it was further to fall. I remember sitting there and I said to myself, if I don't fix this, it is going to kill me. I have two options either go to rehab or I am going to end up in a box. And I went into the rehab, and so I was you know, I was in there and I'm with ice addicts, heron junkies, and you know, hardcore alcoholics, like people coming in, like moaning, screaming, you know, violent, etc. And and little old me, the the little old gambling addict, just sort of sitting there going like this is crazy. When you know, the throwback to the ego, the best thing that ever I was the laughing stock. It was the best thing that ever happened. I was the laughing stock. I literally had one late uh one lady say to me, she said to me, She said, get a real addiction. And and for me, that was just like it was just so humbling and just so ego-shattering because I'm in here with people who, you know, beforehand, I would have like the people who would have thought, you know, these are the people homeless on a park bench, and they look down on me. I am a joke to these people, you know, and that just destroyed any sense of ego or self-righteousness or arrogance that I had, and it really humbled me.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

And the one thing that I was sure of that I'd kind of used up all my chemical allowances when taking cocaine because I knew that wasn't working anymore. But obviously, I still had an ego, and I can remember sat in the room, and the first thing I did was scan every person in the room, and you know, I clocked everybody and I knew you know what I thought they all were before they'd even opened their mouths and introduced themselves to me. And one of the most ego-deflating things that happened to me was I introduced myself to a guy in rehab who had a golf shirt on, and I went up to him and said, Hi, I'm Richard, how are you doing? Where do you play golf? And he looked at me with no teeth and he said to me, 'I don't play golf, I've just been released from Morland's prison, and this was the only thing that they could find to give me.' That was me busted wide open. You know, I I I I recognised straight away that I needed to stop having certain perceptions of what an addict looked like, what an alcoholic looked like, and I just needed to realize that I was an addict in whatever form it was. You know, I think the most amazing thing is for me today is that if we do change our behaviours, we do actually get a second chance of living.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

It's so wonderful, and it truly does change you as a person. And I and and I say this all the time now. I say, I would not wish what I went through on my worst enemy, but I would not change it for myself. I am so appreciative of everything I went through, despite how hard it was, despite how painful it was. The person that came out the other side, I love that person. And a big part of me in my recovery journey was as I, you know, got out of rehab and I was and I was doing the and I was doing the steps, and I was doing a lot of healing work, a lot of internal work. And, you know, as I sort of the further the better I got, I started really to resent the addict. Really, really big part of my recovery was actually sitting down with the addict version of me and making peace with that person and saying, Yes, you you did bad things, but I still love you and you're still welcome here, you know. And that for me was a real game changer.

SPEAKER_02 16:17

Yeah, I I I so relate to that. Early in recovery, I always still thought I was worthless because, you know, I'd harmed that many people through my addiction. And I had this thing in my head that, you know, get to 17 years clean and you wipe the slate of all the harms that you've done to others. And uh, you know, my sponsor said to me, Why are you waiting 17 years? When you get to 17 years, nothing'll change. What you have to change is how you believe and how you think about yourself. And the one thing that you need to do is making an amends to yourself. Because deep down, you're a f you know, you're a beautiful human being. And it's about forgiving yourself, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

You know, the 12 steps is very, you know, when we're making amends to people, it is really external. But I think you know, there is a massive part of that process where it's making amends with yourself, and you know, you seek forgiveness from so many other people, but truly like forgiveness is forgiveness can't be given to you. Forgiveness is something that you give yourself, you know. And and I think that that's such a crucial step of recovery.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

Yeah, and step nine is really is a crucial part, you know. It's not just about saying sorry, you know. My sponsor actually said to me, You've pissed all over the word sorry.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

Yes, it is it is important to, you know, go to those people in step nine and say, I take ownership of this and like I apologize for this. But what actually really cements that, you know, I just think like you, you know, when you you pissed all your sorries away, people don't like people like some people appreciate it, some people don't care. But the best way to make amends to people is to by to actually l like live out the life that you are apologizing to them for, you know. You're saying, I am this new person. Don't like prove that, you know. Don't sit there and apologize a hundred times. No, no, you actually like change your life and be that person that then they can then they can come to you and they can go, I can see that you mean it. Shame and secrecy die with vulnerability. Shame and secrecy die with vulnerability. As soon as you are vulnerable, as soon as you share that, the shame and the secrecy, they die. Is it just you know, antithesis to them. And for me, that was like that was really that final step into full recovery.

SPEAKER_02 18:42

Yeah, so let's get to the present. You've returned to a love of reading.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Just in that rehealing process and books, and I started reading a lot of books about, you know, recovery, addiction, just self-help books, like just all that, and and lots of you know fictional novels as well, because I'm a massive fantasy reader. And books really were such a pillar, like a key part of my recovery, because they gave me the path back to myself. You know, they truly, they they literally like gave me the path back to myself, back to who I am in my core. I live in in Western Queensland and in rural Queensland, living in a caravan. And that was, you know, that was where that was where I healed, and all I did was just work and read for you know for years. And then I finally got to the point where, you know, the same thing where I I was courageous enough to speak about my addiction publicly, but I also was like, I have loved books my entire life. You know, my books are my biggest passion in life, and I've always been too scared to talk about them publicly. I said, I'm done. Like I'm done with the secrets, I'm done with the shame. So it was it was at the exact same, like sort of like the same time where I started talking about my addiction publicly, where I started talking about my love of books publicly. And and that, and it's just take and it's taken off, you know, and it's it's so interesting to me that the the one thing that I love more than anything that I was always so shameful or you know, so ashamed of is now what I get to like, what I get to promote and live and breathe daily.

SPEAKER_02 20:15

Yeah, and that and that's amazing. You know, we are two totally different people. You know, I I still don't like reading today. You know, I was told to go read the first hundred and three pages of the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous, and and to be fair, that's all I've read. That's given me the ability to be authentic about myself, honest with others, to be honest with myself, and it's allowed me to get rid of the shame and guilt around anything before that. That's what I always hated people.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

I was telling you, I think, you know, we grow up, we put pieces of armour on ourselves and we learn the narratives, we learn the narratives that are accepted, and we learn the narratives that aren't accepted, and we put all this armour on ourselves so that we can be safe in the world. And recovery is taking off all that armor, you know. I always I say this all the time that people say recovery and growth is not about adding things on, it's about taking things off. You know, it's not addition, it's subtraction. That's recovery for me, it's subtraction. And when you get to take all those pieces of armour off and you go, you know what? I don't give a fuck if someone sees me going to the theater. Why would I care? I've done the hardest, I've done the hardest thing in the world. I've beaten addiction. Nothing is gonna be harder than that. I don't care what anybody says about me. I'm gonna go do something that brings me joy.

SPEAKER_02 21:30

Yeah, talking of which, you're not only reading books, but next year you're going to be a published author. I mean, how does that feel?

SPEAKER_01 21:37

I was honest to God on the phone with my publisher an hour ago. We were just talking, we were talking about the book. And she said, She said, How are you? And I just said, I said, I'm the happiest I've ever been in my entire life. You know, I said, Yeah, I just I wake up every day and I go, I just am so content with life. And I Think that that really is that that path in recovery really just makes you sit down and go, What do I actually care about? What's important to me? Everything else, I just get rid of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

So finally, what would you say to anybody listening who thinks they've got a problem with gambling but are not sure what to do?

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Well, I always say to people, whenever I get asked this question and they go, like, what can I what's like what's the first thing I can do, or what should I do? I always tell people say, Who is the person that loves and cares for you most in the world? Like immediately about it'll be mum, dad, partner, whoever it'd be, someone like you'll you'll name the person immediately. I always say the person who loves and cares for you the most, you go and talk to them right now. Go and tell them the thing that you're worried about, like the thing that you are ashamed of, the thing that you're scared of, that secret that you're keeping that you don't want to tell, go right now to the person who loves and cares for you the most in the world and tell them.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

Yeah, what a great piece of advice that is. And thanks again for using your platform to help others bring awareness to gambling. It's been a total pleasure, Luke.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

I really appreciate and I really enjoy talking to people who've been through addiction and recovery because we just have we have that understanding.

SPEAKER_03 23:35

Every episode, we speak to someone who has walked through the doors of our house rehab, broken and ready to change their life. As anyone in recovery knows, admitting you need help with addiction takes dedication and guts, and the rehab process can be tough. Today, someone who has put the hard work in and is now on the recovery road, just about to celebrate 10 months of being clean and sober, it's a pleasure to welcome this week's recovery graduate Katie. How are you doing today, Katie? I'm amazing, thanks so much. Thank you. Are you ready for our quick fire questions?

SPEAKER_04 24:05

I think so. Age 43. Where are you from? Darlington.

SPEAKER_03 24:10

What brought you to Ark House? I was gonna die. How long were you struggling with addiction? Too long, lots of years. I've given this one away already, but coming clean term. I'll be 10 months clean and sober on Wednesday. Oh, congratulations! Let's start with the word graduate. Tell me the story.

SPEAKER_04 24:26

Hmm, so I'm not a graduate actually of Ark House. Um, my story is that I was discharged from treatment. I arrived here broken, lost, thought I was gonna die. Someone told me that I never needed to drink or use again, and and I thought I finally got this, you know, there's a solution. And and I I listened to every word that people said, apart from the bit where they said don't get into a relationship, and and that's what I did. You know, I thought I was special, I thought no one would know, I thought it would be okay. I got into a relationship in the house with another resident, and rightly so was discharged from treatment. But that wasn't the end of my recovery journey, it was just the end of my my staying at our house.

SPEAKER_03 25:07

So being in a relationship is usually the downfall of many people that come into recovery. Can you see now why it was a bad idea?

SPEAKER_04 25:15

Oh my goodness, yeah. You know, we've given lots of talks in this house about, you know, relationships and feelings and other ways to manage them. And, you know, alcohol and drugs were my solution for a long time, and I was sat in this house without them, and I didn't I was new, I didn't know all the stuff that I know now, so I was acting out on pure defects of character, you know, selfishness, self-seeking, lust. And I I didn't care about the consequences, I just wanted to feel better. And so when do you think addiction started for you? So I've always liked the feeling of that drinking drugs gave me and I was able to use um without consequences in my life for a really long time, and but I always took things a bit too far, I was always seeking blackout oblivion. It wasn't until about three years ago that I remembered. I've always liked to drink and I I always drank. Um, but about three years ago cocaine crept into my life, um, and I went from being a monthly user, you know, someone who could leave cocaine in a bag until the weekend, the next weekend, to someone who who was using every day and waiting for it to be delivered through my letterbox on the morning.

SPEAKER_03 26:22

So, at the worst part of your addiction, how much would you say you were using?

SPEAKER_04 26:26

So at that time I had a decent job with a pretty good salary and I'd stopped paying any bills in my house, stopped paying rent. I'd stopped buying my children the things that they needed. Um I was taking out loans left, right, and centre. I was spending somewhere in the region of about £5,000 a month.

SPEAKER_03 26:43

What kind of consequences did you have to face?

SPEAKER_04 26:46

So the ultimate consequence, how you know I became aware that this was a problem that I needed to do something about. I was leading this double life. I was working in an in you know in an occupation where I was in a position of trust when I was still managing to do my job for a little while. I went off sick because I I couldn't do it. I had my children at home and I was arrested. The police came to my house. My house literally was not fit for my children to be living there, and there was drugs all over my bedroom, and the police arrested me. They took my children away and I was taken into custody, and that's when you know it became everyone knows about this, I'm gonna have to do something about it.

SPEAKER_03 27:23

What was the hardest thing about admitting you had a serious problem?

SPEAKER_04 27:26

I always thought my whole life I thought I was a person that could solve problems, you know. I'm not an unintelligent person, and you know, I now know this is a disease of the mind, you know. It's I've got a problem with my thinking, I can't think my way out of it, but for a really long time I tried to, and it caused me a lot of pain. So the consequences that happened for you, did it stop you using? No, it didn't. My children were involved in they were involved in care proceedings, they'd been removed from my care. I worked in that field, I knew that my children would not be able to come home unless I could stop using and evidence that, and I still couldn't stop. You know, I love my children, I adore them, but the love for my children was not enough. I just couldn't stop. And I didn't know why, I didn't know how to stop. Everyone around me saying, What are you doing with your life, Katie? Just stop. And I couldn't, I felt like I'd become this evil, horrible person, and now understand that I have a disease, but I didn't know that then.

SPEAKER_03 28:20

Yeah, I can really really relate, you know, to like I had my children taken off me because of my drinking and using, which I didn't think it was because of that at the time. And my addiction is just it just blew out of proportion after they took them. I was like, how could they take them from me? Do you know what I mean? And yeah, I just ended up injecting drugs, or it was just carnage, you know, and it took me many years to realise, like, you know, I I am an addict and an alcoholic, and I can't drink or use ever again, which I'm happy not to today. Do you know? I have my children in my life today, which I never, you know, it's a miracle that I'm alive and kicking, to be fair. Yeah, so you said um about other people, do you know, telling you, why don't you just stop, you know, what you're doing with your life. It's really difficult, isn't it, when you're in the madness, like to see it, you know, you know that you've got a problem, but how do you stop?

SPEAKER_04 29:08

But I tried so hard. It was like they thought I wasn't trying. You know, all the people that love me couldn't be around me because they thought I didn't care and I wasn't trying, but I was trying my best every single day. I just couldn't stop.

SPEAKER_03 29:22

All of our rock bottoms are different. Did you have a rock bottom moment that made you found recovery?

SPEAKER_04 29:27

I was in and out, so this, you know, my children removed from my care, I'm in trouble with the police, I'm spiralling out of control, I'm living in a house that, you know, isn't fit for rats to live in. I I'm now not even able to turn up for my own children, you know. I'm setting off to go and see them at family time and and I can't even get there. I find myself back at home with drugs in my hand and I don't know why. And I always had someone else to blame. It was always the police's fault or social services' fault or you know that person that annoyed me, or and I went into the local drug and alcohol service one day, and this guy said to me, you know, Katie, why do you keep doing this? Because I was saying I wanted to die, I didn't know what to do, and he said, Why are you doing this, Katie? And just said, I don't know. Please help me. And that was the moment, you know, that the the the wheels got in motion for me to come to Ark. Do you remember arriving and walking through the doors of Ark House? Wow, yeah. I was reminded of it when I walked up the steps to come back in today. I can't even tell you what the sort of estate my house was in, and I crawled around the house looking for things to take with me to bring here, and all of it really should have been incinerated. But I threw all this stuff in this bag and this bag for life, and my brother drove me here, you know, an hour and forty-five minutes. I think he only drove me here to make sure that I actually came in. And I walked through the door, and if you know, everyone just surrounded me with care and love and and gave me the you know the most amazing gift that I've ever received, which is my big blue book.

SPEAKER_03 30:54

What was it like walking up the steps today?

SPEAKER_04 30:56

Do you know what? The house hasn't changed. You know, the place is the same, it still feels full of love. The only thing that's changed is me. It feels amazing to be back here, you know what? It it's just yeah, I thank God every day for Ark House and the people in it, life-saving stuff.

SPEAKER_03 31:11

This so you mentioned that you got discharged for having um a relationship. How were you managed to stay clean and sober?

SPEAKER_04 31:18

Yeah, wow. So I got dropped off from here by a member of staff at the train station and had these bags for life and my big walkers on the top of it. And and I was in the train station buying a ticket, and I thought, right, I'll get a coffee. As you're queuing for coffee, there's alcohol all down the side of the room. And and I remember physically turning away from it and getting this coffee and going outside for a cigarette. Um, and this guy came over and asked me for a fag, you know, the type of guy that hangs about in a train station, and and I gave him a fag and he was like, Oh, have you just got out of ARC? And I was like, Yeah, I have. He must have seen my book on the top. And he was like, Well, I know where you can get some crack and Tamazzies. And in that moment, you know, this amazing, he's like an angel in my life. Um he was a volunteer here at that time. He didn't even know I was being discharged that day. He was going for his own train journey somewhere else, just appeared there. Like, he was like, Katie, are you okay? And I was like, uh yeah, he was like, Are you getting on the train? I was like, Yeah, he said, Come with me. And he took me into the train station. And I was able to phone who the lady who's now become my sponsor. And I rang her from the train and said, You know, I've I've been in rehab, I've been discharged, you know, I need your help, please. Will you help me? And she helped me and met me, and she bought me my phone had been cut off. I had to use the Wi-Fi to ring on WhatsApp. She bought me this SIM card and got me connected with all these online meetings and you know, took me through the steps. And, you know, my life is is not like that, you know, how it was anymore. I have a beautiful life, and now I'm able to help other people have the same. You know, this is what life's about.

SPEAKER_03 32:50

So, did you stick to the relationship role after you got discharged?

SPEAKER_04 32:53

Yeah, I did. You know, I got home, started working with my sponsor, and she would say to me every day, she had this list of 12 suggestions which I give my girls now. And you know, one of the suggestions is ring three recovered. It was people, but for me it became women, you know, and connect with women in the fellowship. I think for me, a relationship is about what I can bring, you know, what I can not what I can take, and and I don't know what I can bring, so until I know what I can bring, I'm I'm staying by myself.

SPEAKER_03 33:22

Get into the present, what does your recovery look like now?

SPEAKER_04 33:25

Wow, so my life's transformed, you know. I have a purpose today, I have meaning to my life. I'm able to take other women through the work and watch them recover. I get to see my children today. You know, my story isn't that my children are back in my life full time right now because that's not God's plan for me today, and I'm okay with that. I get to be a good person, I get to show up, I get to come here and do this. I've just got to spend the weekend in Scarborough on my own, safe and protected, you know, wandering around, literally having the best time.

SPEAKER_03 33:57

Keep giving me ghost bumps.

SPEAKER_04 34:00

What's the reaction been like from those close to you? My brother drove me to rehab. We reflected on this in the car yesterday, drove me to Scarborough to come and stay. Um, we reflected on what a difference the journey was. And, you know, my brothers, my family wouldn't speak to me when I got discharged from ARC. Um, and I couldn't understand why because I was really still really sick. And I said, But I haven't drank or used. And they were like, no, but look at what you've done. But by just doing the right thing every day, you know, the next right thing, showing up, doing what people have asked me to do, having some discipline in my life. You know, people want to spend time with me again. You know, people enjoy being around me. Yeah, my relationships are amazing with everyone around me.

SPEAKER_03 34:42

So you mentioned about um walking around Scarborough on your own and that. Um, a lot of people wonder what recovery is going to be like after addiction. Um, what would you say is it about that finding peace and just Yeah, so it's that feeling of inner peace, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 34:56

You know, the the constant chatter inside, my head isn't there anymore, you know. When I'm walking down the street, I no longer wonder, are they staring at me? Or I hear someone laugh, and I don't think they're laughing at me, you know. People are going about their day doing their stuff, and I'm going about mine. I feel a sense of calmness no matter where I go. Never felt more happy, like it was just beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 35:18

Right, are you ready for the next five questions? Let's go for it. Meditation or sport? Meditation. Step four or step nine. Oh, I can't choose both. A hobby you started or dream of trying in recovery.

SPEAKER_04 35:31

So I've become quite interested in crystals and learning about the different crystals. One thing you're proud of recently? Being here today.

SPEAKER_03 35:40

If you could name someone who has been a huge inspiration to you, who would it be? Wow, my sponsor. One thing you were grateful for today. Being alive. And finally, if you could give a younger Katie some advice, what would it be? Be kind to yourself. Thanks so much for joining us, Katie, and keep on doing the right thing. Thanks, Sam. Thank you. In recovery.

unknown 36:04

In recovery.

SPEAKER_02 36:06

Every week we bring you recovery hacks from professionals working within the recovery community. This week we are at New Vision in Bradford, which is a free, confidential drug and alcohol service in West Yorkshire. Today we are speaking about the Ket Effect, a campaign launched by New Vision to highlight the massive surge in popularity of ketamine. It's my pleasure to welcome to the podcast Rose, who is recovery coordinator within the outreach and rough sleeping team. Hello.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

Hello.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

How are you?

SPEAKER_00 36:35

I'm not too bad, thank you. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:37

Yeah, good, thank you. So the facts about ketamine are really scary. Usage among 16 to 24 year olds has tripled since 2016, and the NHS data shows a 45% increase in ketamine-related hospital admissions over the past five years. Have you seen this at New Vision?

SPEAKER_00 36:54

Yeah, massively. So ketamine's been around for a long time, but we've definitely noticed an increase in people coming in, and particularly in like a younger cohort of people using it. In our experience, people can get hold of it quite easily, quite cheaply, and there's a bit of an opinion among young people, particularly, that it doesn't really have too bad of an effect because there's no kind of immediate come down or hangover the next day. So no, we're seeing it really widely, and it's it's scary. The rise I think we're seeing is that people are saying ketamine is their primary substance of misuse, and we're seeing a lot more daily use rather than just the sort of ininverted commas recreational use on a weekend.

SPEAKER_02 37:33

Right, okay. And how does it compare cost-wise then to cocaine?

SPEAKER_00 37:36

People have told me before they can get hold of a gram for five pounds, whereas cocaine quite often you're looking at sort of 50 on average, so it's enormous. You know, you look at teenagers who are probably getting access to pocket money, maybe five pounds, ten pounds a week or a month, you can get hold of a gram or two of ketamine for that. So it is it's quite shocking how cheap it can be.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

So I mean, I'm I'm just a washed-up old cocaine addict. And uh I never I've never used ketamine. So just describe what what that actually, you know, when you have ketamine, what does it actually do to you?

SPEAKER_00 38:12

Ketamine is a dissociative drug. So again, if we just compare it to cocaine, obviously cocaine's a stimulant, it gives you a lot more energy. You feel like you can sometimes tackle a lot more. But with ketamine, if you take in small amounts at parties, people enjoy the fact that it can make you feel a bit spaced out, kind of giggly, but in higher amounts, you can also start to hallucinate after taking it. So things like bright lights become really bright, you can get quite intense audio-visual hallucinations from it. If you take a lot more ketamine, you can get into a position known as a K-hole or a ket hole. Some people seek that and really want that, and some people that happens by accident, and it can be really, really scary. And if that happens, it's basically just like you become unaware of your entire surroundings, it becomes very difficult to move your limbs, you can be unable to walk, you can even kind of lose control of bodily functions and things like that. So it can be really, really scary.

SPEAKER_02 39:09

Wow. So I I obviously I've looked at your campaign, the Ket Effect, and I've seen that you've put a short sort of film together. You know, what's what are you trying to get across with that?

SPEAKER_00 39:18

The thing that with the film, we were wanting to get across that ketamine use looks different with different people. It's not all just people going and seeking a K-hole or accidentally getting into a K-hole. There's people who use it quite regularly, but look sort of to the untrained eye like they're the ones who are quite together and you wouldn't necessarily think it was them. But then they're the ones having to have their conversation with the urologists and saying you've actually got bladder damage induced by using ketamine. There's the people in the film who had never ever used it before and were being told how to use it a little bit more safely and what it would look like for them. And there's also people in the film who you might think of as maybe what you would have expected to see, which is somebody using it, having a lot of fun, but then accidentally going into a K-hole and needing support from their friends. So wanted to get across that it looks different with different people, there's different stages of it, and also there are ways to do it more safely. And that was really important as well to get across that if you're going to do it, there are ways you can do it a little bit more safely.

SPEAKER_02 40:19

So, what are the hidden dangers around ketamine?

SPEAKER_00 40:22

The main one that I think people are starting to talk about more, which I'm really glad about, is the damage to your bladder and your kidneys. So when you're taking ketamine, it irritates the lining of your bladder, and that can start to cause problems around urinary retention, it can start to cause things like incontinence, very, very severe pain. People get into an awful cycle where ketamine is absolutely a great anesthetic, and it's used in hospital settings as an anaesthetic, but that becomes the thing that stops the pain, it causes the pain, stops the pain, and you're just stuck in that cycle. So it causes a lot of irritation, and people notice things like blood in their urine and things like that, and even to the point where their bladder lining starts to come away and is urinated out. So it's it's it's really serious.

SPEAKER_02 41:10

Uh what I've seen in my experience is that the young people coming in haven't really experienced a lot in life. Now at a stage where they're wearing nappies in some respects, can't hold the bladder, they needed to get up and go to the toilet. Um, neurology departments won't deal with them or do anything with them until they get clean, and it's and it's it's this thing of being able to get clean whilst being starting so much pain. And a lot of people walk away from treatment because of the pain. I just don't know how you know we as a treatment centre and you as Bradford New Vision and what have you, how you actually what are you doing here to help them?

SPEAKER_00 41:49

The main thing that all of us can do, us as a service, you guys as a service, other treatment services, is to keep talking as much as possible about those hidden harms. Because like you said, even you know, you're getting five, ten pounds a bag, financially it might not be having that much of an impact on you, but your tolerance is growing so quickly with ketamine that quite quickly that's not gonna cut it. So you are then still gonna be spending that 50 to 100 pounds a day sometimes to get where you want to be. So the financial harm kind of increases quite quickly. There's a lot of information out there on the internet and different online forums about the impact of it on your bladder, but I think people still didn't quite realise the extent of it because they thought, well, I'm not feeling anything yet, so there must be no harm going on.

SPEAKER_02 42:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

But it's one of those that once you start to feel it, that damage is done. I think that services like ours and services like our yours can do a lot, but a lot of the onus needs to be on urology departments to educate themselves and look at ways that they can support with things like pain management and management of symptoms while somebody is getting to the point of abstinence. Abstinence is the only thing that will stop the damage and the only thing that will allow somebody to be fully treated for it. But it needs to be a joint effort between services.

SPEAKER_02 43:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

We have very strong links with people with GPs. So a big kind of part of my work anyway is that if anybody identifies any sort of problems with their bladder, they're noticing any pains, they're noticing any increased increased frequency or urgency or any blood, immediately it would send a letter to the GP. And I have had service users say, actually, you know what, I'd already been to my GP. They didn't really understand what I was saying and they didn't get anywhere. But after they read the letter, they called back and said, Yeah, actually, I see what you're saying, then we'll refer you on to urology. Yeah. But in extreme cases, you know, if I was to have somebody come to me who was experiencing very, very severe symptoms, we do have links available with urology teams across Bradford teaching hospitals. Uh it wouldn't be a standard offering for everybody who comes in because it's just it's not necessary for everybody. But in those extreme cases, we could also have links with the hospital to kind of bridge that gap a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

Yeah, and I guess that the the film that you've made can be used for professionals to help them understand the the effects of ketamine on young people today.

SPEAKER_00 44:12

Yeah, very much so. It is also used by GPs, hospital staff, any kind of social care professional. And as well we do offer a training package for professionals. So if somebody were to watch that film and think actually me and my team at this GP surgery would really benefit from that because we're seeing an increase in people coming in with the impacts of using ketamine, then they can get in touch with us and we can also provide some training for them.

SPEAKER_02 44:36

That's great. I used cocaine and and I guess it's still seen today as being quite glamorous. You know, with regards to ketamine, how do you think that's perceived?

SPEAKER_00 44:45

I think amongst younger people it's still perceived as not much of a threat. It's just kind of a fun thing you can do on a weekend to enjoy a party, not feel anything the next day and you know if you're using it once every couple of weeks you're likely not going to feel much physical impact from it either. But then you've got the sort of other side to it where older people, you know, parents of younger people who are using it, I think are a little bit more clued in on the negative side effects of it. So we see you know quite a lot of parents being really anxious and afraid and upset when they find out that their children are using ketamine. And I think potentially a lot of it with the younger people is that when it gets to the point of incontinence, pain, blood and urine, that's so embarrassing to talk about that they're not really hearing people talk about it. So it's one of those well I you know I saw it in a paper that this can happen but nobody I know who takes it daily said that. And I've not heard any of my peers talk about the pain or weing themselves on a night out. So it's probably just one of those things that doesn't happen. But I think all we can do is keep sort of as people in this area keep saying it does happen. It is happening and you may not kind of realize until the damage is starting to be done. So I think it needs to go hand in hand with a strong harm reduction message because I'm sure we're all in agreement we all know that the don't take drugs, drugs are bad, doesn't work. So I think it needs to go hand in hand with a message of okay if you're going to do it let's talk about how to do it a bit more safely to try to reduce some of that harm to yourself.

SPEAKER_02 46:20

So obviously in in your job at the moment you're seeing a lot of people who are sleeping on the streets of of Bradford and you know what are you seeing out there at the moment on the streets?

SPEAKER_00 46:29

All sorts of things we're probably seeing more now than we have seen in quite a long time which in itself is scary. Ketamin doesn't really come into that as much but it's not it's not not there. The main things that we're seeing there's heroin crack spice I would say the main three so spice is synthetic cannabis we also see a lot of adulterants in the supplies so things like nitazines, xylazines, fentanyl which are all synthetic opiates and are all incredibly strong but incredibly dangerous for overdose. What's kind of scary is we've even seen adulterants like that within ketamine. Not so much in Bradford but it has been noted in the UK and within things like illicit benzodiazepine tablets so street value and things like that. In short, the streets of Bradford there is a lot at the minute. Okay so last question magic wand what would be the one thing that you'd want to change it would just be a better management for people who are experienced pain from ketamine. So it feels like that is the thing that is stopping people from being able to stop using is the fact that they can't actually get that physical support. We can do psychosocial interventions, we can support people with every aspect of their life finance, housing, the emotional side of stopping using drugs, the emotional side of using drugs, all of that but there's still such a gap in terms of helping support people physically to manage symptoms and I just think if people knew they would have that support there it'd be a lot easier to stop.

SPEAKER_02 48:02

Yeah. Well listen Rose I mean from from my point of view I think you're doing an amazing job here and you know you're right at the heart of it at the moment in Bradford in terms of trying to change people's perceptions around ketamine use highlighting the physical damage that can take take effects very quickly from from my point of view I wish you all the best in 2026.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

Thank you. Thank you for having us on thank you for everything you guys do.

SPEAKER_03 48:25

Thank you you can watch the Ket Effect film from New Vision on their website and all the details can be found in our episode description.

SPEAKER_02 48:38

Thanks to Luke, Katie and Rose we will be back in two weeks' time with a brand new episode of In Recovery giving you plenty of time to catch up on season two so far.

SPEAKER_03 48:48

In this series we have spoken to Eureka Johnson, Aurel Dube, Chris Kirkland and John Robbins as well as professionals from the recovery community and former residents of Ark House.

SPEAKER_02 48:59

You can watch exclusive clips on our Instagram and Facebook pages as well as finding out detailed information about Ark House rehab.

SPEAKER_03 49:06

If you are a loved one are suffering from addiction issues then please know you are not alone. Reach out to us at Arc House today.

SPEAKER_02 49:13

All of the contact details are in the episode description