IN RECOVERY - The Ark House Podcast - S2 EP 15 - Feat MILLIE GOOCH (Author and Founder of Sober Girl Society)

Welcome to IN RECOVERY - THE ARK HOUSE PODCAST, your weekly essential companion guide to recovery and well-being. This is a special episode to proudly support International Overdose Awareness Day. Whilst 25 years of progress have been made in harm reduction and education, drug overdoses remain a critical, preventable public health crisis affecting millions of families globally

IN RECOVERY is a companion guide for those on their addiction recovery journey. We also want to offer advice and support for those still suffering and offer solutions for those who just want to know more. This is a well-being podcast produced and presented by people with lived experience who want to carry the message of recovery.

In this episode three more interviews with people who want to share their stories of hope, faith and courage as well as give game changing advice.  

MILLIE GOOCH is a prominent British author, speaker, and sobriety advocate who is widely recognised as a leading voice in the UK’s modern "sober-curious" and alcohol-free movement, having founded the world-wide community Sober Girl Society. Millie's brand book Hangxiety: How Alcohol Messes with Your Mind will be released on September 8, 2026

We do not have an interview with a former resident this week but with two people working within vital organisations in the recovery community. 

We are joined by MICK from NEW VISION, in Bradford. To coincide with International Overdose Awareness Day, Mick speaks about the drug and alcohol service's groundbreaking campaign, "You Can Save A Life". This initiative provides public health training to prevent drug overdose deaths and support individuals struggling with substance or alcohol use.

NEW VISON are providing free take-home Naloxone kits and training across the Bradford district. Naxalone is:

A life-saving medicine that temporarily reverses opioid overdoses from drugs like heroin, fentanyl, and prescription painkillers.

Easy to use by anyone in an emergency—you do not need to be a doctor or nurse.

Available as an injection or a nasal spray

We also speak to PENNY WILLIAMS from THE KENWARD TRUST and CHOICES REHABS, as the Open Houses 2026 campaign launches. This major national initiative across England runs throughout September 2026. It will open the doors of state-funded residential drug and alcohol rehabilitation centres to commissioners, clinicians, policymakers, journalists, and local community members. Coinciding with international Recovery Month, the goal is to break down social stigmas, showcase structured, evidence-based care, and advocate for fairer access to treatment funding

CONTACT NEW VISION AND SEE THEIR CAMPAIGN HERE

https://newvisionbradford.org.uk/you-can-save-a-life-powerful-new-campaign-to-prevent-drug-deaths/

FIND OUT MORE ABOUT OPEN HOUSES 2026 HERE 

https://www.openhouses.org.uk/

IN RECOVERY - THE ARK HOUSE PODCAST is thrilled to be named one of the Best Podcasts by The Sunday Times (June 2026) and is riding high in the charts (Number 10 in the global Mental Health charts), as we continue our second season.  We are so grateful to everyone for their support. If you are listening on Apple or Spotify - we would love you to leave us a review.

SAM AND RICHARD - THE HOSTS

Are both in recovery themselves and so have lived experience of alcoholism and addiction. 

If you or a loved one need help from addiction, please know there is help. Reach out and speak to Ark House today....

PHONE 01723 371869

EMAIL info@arkhouserehab.co.uk

ADDRESS 15 Valley Road, Scarborough, Y011 2LY

WEBSITE www.arkhouserehab.co.uk

FACEBOOK  @arkhouserehabltd

INSTAGRAM @in_recovery_podcast

Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:00

In Recovery.

unknown 0:06

In Recovery.

SPEAKER_04 0:11

Welcome to In Recovery, the Archives podcast, where, every week, we bring you inspiring stories, lived experience, and game-changing advice.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Today's International Overdose Awareness Day, which is the world's largest annual campaign to end overdose, remember people who have died without stigma, and acknowledge the grief of families and friends.

SPEAKER_04 0:29

We have an interview with a team from New Vision in Bradford who are running a campaign to enable everyday people to administer life-saving medication before emergency services arrive.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

We also speak to the founder of the Sober Girl Society, Millie Gooch, who is releasing their brand new book, Anxiety.

SPEAKER_04 0:46

Plus, as rehabs, including ours, open their doors to showcase the value of residential drug and alcohol rehabilitation, we speak to one of the organisers, Penny Williams.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

A vital episode with people who are helping change people's lives. Welcome to In Recovery.

SPEAKER_04 1:15

With a platform that now reaches millions of people across social media and live events. Since giving up alcohol herself in 2018, she has started the Sober Girl Society movement, as well as writing a best-selling book of the same name. Her new book is not about sobriety, but about your brain and booze. It also has one of the best titles I've ever heard for a long time. Author of Hangxiety, Millie Gooch, welcome to In Recovery. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Well, thank you so much. Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm all good apart from being absolutely boiling.

SPEAKER_04 1:45

So tell me about the name of the book. How did that come about?

SPEAKER_00 1:49

Yeah, well, I think anxiety was probably my biggest motivator for giving up uh alcohol. And I think we have this sort of like kind of jokey thing with anxiety, and I I think maybe we don't talk about this the more serious side of it, which for me was like, you know, on a hangover, like full sort of like come down-esque depression, suicidal thoughts, etc. And I just thought it really kind of encapsulated not only, you know, the kind of like mental health next day after effects of alcohol, but sort of this cycle that like a lot of us find ourselves in of like drinking to perhaps ease something like anxiety and then to feel it ten times worse the next day and then to you know drink again.

SPEAKER_04 2:32

Yeah, and I think that that morning after that you talk about just being overwhelmed with fear. So going back to 2018, why and how did that happen in terms of giving up alcohol?

SPEAKER_00 2:43

I was really struggling with my mental health, and I was drinking as part of that, and so I was just in this constant cycle of like drinking to feel a bit brighter, a bit less anxious, doing stupid things, not remembering my night, waking up in places that you know I wasn't sure where I was, and then doing it all over again and all over again. But I was your very much your typical like party girl, weekend warrior. But because I sort of like didn't, it wasn't like the first thing I thought about on like a Tuesday morning, I didn't feel like at the time I was fitting that like stereotypical mould that we that we think of, and so I sort of yeah, just just kept going and kept going. I was like, you know, I don't have an issue, I'm fine, and then yeah, it got to 2018 and I just woke up one morning on a hangover, I'd been went out with my friends. I don't remember a single thing about being out. I knew my friends were really annoyed with me because they texted me the next day saying like it's getting a bit out of control, and I just said I I don't want to live like this, I'm utterly miserable, I'm just on this like cycle of drinking all the time, feeling horrendous. And I just said I I think I need to stop drinking, have like a just a hard stop on it, and I didn't know at the time whether it was gonna be a forever thing or and but it is, and yeah, we're like eight years, eight and a bit years later now, and still sober, which and it's the best thing that's ever happened to me.

SPEAKER_04 4:00

Wow, what an amazing story. So, when you launched the sober girl society, did you ever imagine how huge it would become?

SPEAKER_00 4:07

I had no idea because back then, like not many people were talking about it, it just wasn't really a thing, and it was the whole reason I started was because I didn't know a single other sober person at the time, and I wanted to like meet other people and talk about what we were going through. And I always say now, like I have so many friends who have like been through programs, have been in rehab, swear by all of those things. When I got sober, I didn't feel like they were the right fit for me. Like I know so much now, and I actually think, do you know what? I probably would have really benefited from that help. But at the time I was like, Oh, they they're gonna say you're not that bad. So I I kind of didn't didn't go through a recovery programme. I had so much therapy around my drinking and my mental health, but because of that, I didn't meet any other sober people. I didn't have like a community of other sober people when there were things I like wanted to talk about. So yeah, I just thought it would be like 10 of us meeting up for like you know, a few nice mock towels and talking about why we can't stop crying in sobriety and yeah, and then it just it just escalated and it was crazy. And I've just yeah, beyond anything I ever imagined.

SPEAKER_04 5:12

So moving on to the book, you know, anxiety. I would say you really challenge everything we think about and know about drinking. Would you agree with that?

SPEAKER_00 5:20

I try to, and and even just you know, around the idea that just because you don't drink to excess, it doesn't mean your life might not be better for you not drinking, and like you know, how it can affect you even kind of moderately. So, not in any kind of like preachy way, or like I say at the beginning, I'm not trying to convert you to some sort of teetotal cult, but these are the facts. I think you should have them, and you know, you're drinking alcohol, you should at least know what it does to your brain.

SPEAKER_04 5:43

I've picked out a few things that I want to quiz you on. Is that okay?

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 5:48

So you say early on in the book that when when asked for the number one thing that helped you give up alcohol forever, the answer is knowledge.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Yeah. When you know what it does and how it's affecting you, you can make more informed choices and you can decide, okay, this is what I know it's going to do to me. But I think also like learning about myself, understanding my own brain, understanding like why maybe it's harder for me to have a good relationship with alcohol than maybe someone else, and my relationship is different. And I I think it's helped me have a bit more like compassion for myself.

SPEAKER_04 6:20

You know, and it was and it was laid down pretty simply to me that once I once I understood that, that it sends off a chemical reaction in my brain that tells me that that's a really good thing. I have another one, and then I don't have an off button. Yeah. And I guess like you, you know, we end up black out, blacked out in nightclubs. But yeah, yeah, it's interesting that once you start getting these snippets of knowledge, now we need to investigate you a little bit more and find out exactly what your problem is, why you drink like you do.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

And yeah, absolutely. And that is like one of the core messages is what works for me might not work for you, might not work for someone else because we all drink differently, we all come to this for different reasons, and that is important to like I would never say, Oh, don't do AA or don't do 12-step just because I didn't do it, because I also have friends who swear by it and said it saved my life. And I I think that is so important is to try things, and just because one approach doesn't work doesn't mean you're like doomed forever, or because there's so many different ways that I think you can approach this.

SPEAKER_04 7:18

So let's talk about Professor David Nutt. Yes, you know, who talks about alcoholism. If alcohol was invented today as a food additive, you would only be allowed one large glass of wine a year. That's just a mad thought.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

It's wild. Like I when he said that, and I've seen him say it on quite a few different sort of like platforms and podcasts now. I was like, that just blows my mind. And we all just accept it. And if it's like, imagine if they bought something out now and they always think of it in the way that they, you know, if they said, Oh, we've we've got this amazing product, like it will make you feel a bit less anxious, a bit less stressed for, like a little bit, but you know, it's going to increase your risk of cancer and uh and heart disease and all these things. We'll be like, Oh no, I'm I'm alright, thank you. It doesn't so it doesn't sound worth it actually. The trade-off doesn't sound quite right, but we it's just been you know so normalist and so ingrained for so long that we that we just accept it, which is yeah, it's so interesting when you really dig into it. You know, with alcohol, it's like we expect everyone to, and it is so not normal if you're the person who doesn't. Like it's yeah, yeah, it's just so expected and ingrained in everything we do, like football, you know, Christmas, weddings, funerals, it's when we celebrate, it's when we commiserate, it it's part of all of it.

SPEAKER_04 8:28

When you are actually at a wedding and a function like that, where people arrive, they're all dressed up, they're all glamorous, they can all form words, and then at 11 o'clock, they're all practically undressed, they can't form words, you're still sober, but they don't see it.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:43

You know, I'm grateful today that I can see that, and I'm grateful today that I can go, right? Okay, it's 11 o'clock, I'm done, I'm out of here. Now you you carry on doing whatever you want to do. And yeah, it's but that's been massively mind-opening for me.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

100%. I think it's it is such a surreal experience as well when you first stop drinking. You go to like your first sober wedding or whatever, and you see it unfold in real time. Because when you're drinking as well, you don't you don't notice how everyone sort of like slowly you know dissolves into mayhem, but you you notice it so much more when you're not drinking. So, yeah, the I always say like the first kind of like time that you go out, it's like watching some sort of nature documentary because you're like, this is fascinating of how it's like all unfolding.

SPEAKER_04 9:22

It'd be great, wouldn't it, if the people in power just spent probably a weekend on a liver ward in Scarborough.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_04 9:30

And the impact that ward and all the family members attached to that ward has. The other thing that I wanted to pick up with you as well is that the phrase drink responsibly. Tell me your thoughts on this.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

Ah, I mean it's definitely a EPR slogan, sort of like coined by the alcohol industry. That I think the reality is the way alcohol affects your brain makes it so hard for you to be responsible. It literally like shuts down the part of your brain that like makes weighs up right or wrong, makes rational decisions, all those things that make you like a thoughtful, compassionate human being who you know thinks about tomorrow, thinks about their loved ones. It hinders those things. So it's it's actually really hard for you to drink responsibly. And then I think it also kind of amplifies that shame of like people then go out, they drink more than they want to, they might do something that they regret, and they're like, Oh, why can't I just drink responsibly? And you know, it's an addictive product that makes us want more of it and then stops us being responsible. No wonder we all feel so shameful about the fact that we can't, you know, quote unquote handle it. So yeah, I think we need uh definitely a new slogan, but I think it's very convenient for the alcohol industry that it's like, yes, we've got this addictive product that makes you do stupid things, but if you don't drink responsibly, that is your fault. Like we've warned you. So I think it allows them to kind of absolve themselves of any responsibility and just puts it all on you of like here's the product, this is what it does, but that's on you. So, but again, like people don't necessarily have the knowledge of exactly how it makes you less responsible. So we all just end up beating ourselves up and think thinking we're, you know, terrible human beings.

SPEAKER_04 11:05

And I never thought that my my whole thinking and thought process changed the more I drunk and the more I used.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Yeah. And it's so hard because when you talk about this subject, you instantly, you know, you get anti-fun or you're preachy or you're this, and that's one of the biggest barriers, I think, to us having like really honest, nuanced conversations about what alcohol does, what like what it actually is, because uh people think I'm not anti-alcohol, I'm I'm not, because there's plenty of people that I'm sure have you know lovely relationships and are just fine with it, but we have to be able to talk about it and we have to be able to talk about some of the negative stuff without instantly being labelled preachy, or you know, you're just trying to take away everyone's fan or be a party pooper. So it's a it's a really hard subject to talk about, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_04 11:48

So another myth you tackle is the nightcap. Yeah. Is it a fact that the opposite that it's actually the opposite?

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Yeah, so we have this idea that alcohol helps you sleep, and it's hard because there is some like truth in it, because alcohol is sort of like a sedative, so it you know slows your brains down, it makes you feel sleepier, so it kind of like knocks you out. So it does help you fall asleep, but there are so many studies now that we know a lot more about sleep than we used to in kind of like times gone by that sleep is not just like one long kind of like passive drift, it's actually made up of like 90-minute sleep cycles, and one of the biggest like kind of predictors of good mental health is good quality sleep, so not quantity, it's not really about how many hours you have, which so many of us think, oh, I had eight hours, so I had a good sleep. It's actually really about the quality, and so when you're drinking alcohol disrupts the those kind of like cycles, and you know what part comes when and and and things like that. So you might pass out have eight hours, but you might wake up feeling you know, you've probably felt it where you're like wired and tired, and you're like, I don't understand because I like passed out for eight hours. Why do I still feel horrendous? And it's because alcohol disrupts that kind of like sleep architecture.

SPEAKER_04 13:02

And the the other thing you talked about there was blackouts and how society we often treat these as a bit of a joke.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

Yeah, yeah. I I think like I see so many things that are like, oh ha ha, I can't even remember my night. And you know, like everyone laughs and don't even remember what I did last night. But for me, like they got to a point where they were actually terrifying, they weren't just like funny anecdotes where I just couldn't remember what someone said. It was like I literally don't remember getting home. I remember being in the club, and then somehow I'm here and I don't remember that journey, I don't remember what happened on that journey. And I think like for me, they just became so terrifying, and I didn't understand them. I didn't understand what was happening in my brain. It's so it's not that your brain forgets, it's that your brain interrupts the process of essentially storing memories. So in the book, I I say it's a bit like having a camera but not pressing record. So your brain is like taking all the information in, but it doesn't get filed properly. So for a lot of the time, try as you might, you will not get those memories back.

SPEAKER_04 13:58

Yeah, and I think one of the other things as well is it's it, you know, in in blackout, you can't actually do anything, can't you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

Yeah. Well, I I remember, have you ever seen the film The Girl on the Train?

SPEAKER_04 14:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

Yeah, and she has a blackout and she can't remember, but she knows that this girl is dead and she can't remember. And I remember seeing at the time commentary of like, oh my god, if you killed someone, you would know. But if your brain literally doesn't store that memory, you don't know. Like, that is a genuine thing that can happen. And I don't think people realise that that is the case and that you can be acting normally, speaking, chatting. Like, I would talk to my friends about what happened, and they'd be like, Oh, we had a full conversation about this, you were really normal, you didn't even look that drunk. And I would have no recollection of it whatsoever. And so I think, yeah, that's that's one of the things that I would love people to to talk about more.

SPEAKER_04 14:44

So finally, something I think so important that you address is the comparison trap. It's important just to concentrate on how alcohol affects you as a person.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

You know, people would say to me, Oh, you're not that bad. But like you say, they would see the like the highlight reel almost, and they wouldn't see me the next morning when I was, you know, crying, vomiting, shaking, having panic attacks, being like, I don't want to be here. Like I people don't see that stuff. So I think it's so important that like you're the only person that has all the information about how alcohol affects you. And also people would say, Oh, you're not that bad in terms of just because I wasn't necessarily like drinking first thing in the morning, but it was affecting every single part of my life, my relationships, my finances, my mental health, my physical health. So I think it's so important that we I always say don't necessarily say, you know, have I got an alcohol problem, but is it causing problems for me? And I think it's so important just to think about you and your life and the effect that alcohol is having on you, and don't compare that to anyone else. Because, like we said at the beginning, people will drink differently for different reasons and will have different reactions to alcohol. So I think, yeah, it's just so important to avoid any kind of comparison.

SPEAKER_04 15:48

I'd just like to say it's been an amazing chat with you. Uh the book Anxiety is out right now, and I'll have to end by asking you what's next for you.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

Oh, do you know what? I haven't even thought that far ahead yet. I've been so concerned with this book. I think the one thing I am quite keen to do for my masters was mental health and addiction, and in that I covered lots of different addictions, not just alcohol. And so my story has always been very sobriety alcohol focused, and I'd love to like look at some different addictions. I've had a loved one that had a gambling addiction, so uh there's loads of other things that I would really love to look into. So I think that might be the next thing is to branch out a little bit from kind of the alcohol conversation.

SPEAKER_04 16:27

Yeah, I think my next thing is to go 750 metres down the road and jump in the sea. That's as far as I can as I can think. It's bloody red hot in here. But anyway, listen, it's been amazing. I think we've done remarkably well under the heat, the intense heat and pressure.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Oh, thank you, Nate. Nice to meet you. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_04 16:44

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

In recovery.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

In recovery.

SPEAKER_04 16:57

At Ark House, we are lucky to work alongside some of the leading drug and alcohol services around the UK. And every episode we talk to someone within these services for some game-changing advice. Today, which is National Overdose Awareness Day, we welcome someone who has been instrumental in the new campaign from New Vision in Bradford, West Yorkshire, titled Naloxone. You can save a life. To tell us more about it and to welcome to the podcast, it's Mick Roy, Recovery Coordinator. Hi Mick, how are you?

SPEAKER_03 17:24

I'm very well, thank you.

SPEAKER_04 17:26

Brilliant, thank you. So, firstly, hugely important day today. Over 5,000 people died in 2024 from overdoses. How vital is it to raise awareness?

SPEAKER_03 17:35

Absolutely, Keith. It's looking at prevention, looking at reducing the risk, and around the lock horn, it's a game changer. It can save somebody's life. So, with New Vision, we had um a real epidemic recently where we were, I think it was last summer, we were seeing around 20 overdoses a day, and this was down to mainly um nitazines, which are a synthetic opioid. And what we were finding was like nitazines are around a hundred times a hundred times stronger than the heroin that generally see on the street, that's been caught up. So, what people were doing, it's a man-made sort of uh substance that they were mixing to the heroin, and but we were also finding it was being contaminated in spice in benzos, so you die as it am. So we were out eight o'clock in the morning with analox on um administrating the analox on and also then calling the ambulance to get them involved at the time preventing overdoses.

SPEAKER_04 18:35

Wow. So I know the campaign's been hugely successful. So, how many people have been trained so far?

SPEAKER_03 18:40

So, through New Vision itself, we're looking at between 1500 to 1600 people have been trained, and that's come from we've got uh a partnership with the University of Brantford. Part of their sort of training is to have an a lot of untrained, so that's been brilliant. All the new nurses coming into the service and a lot of untrained. We'd have members of the public coming down, we've had people from retail shops, people from pharmacies, everyone's been really wanting to get involved in this campaign, so it's been really positive.

SPEAKER_04 19:10

So, for people who don't know anything about naloxene, can you tell me a little bit more about it?

SPEAKER_03 19:15

Yeah, so it sort of reverses the effect of an overdose. So you administrator it can be either through an injection or it can be through a nasal spray that will sort of reverse the side effects of the overdose, it lifts the opiates that have been on the receptors of the brain. The naloxone lifts these opiates off the receptors and gives them time for the naloxone to take effect.

SPEAKER_04 19:39

So obviously, you're trying to highlight the benefits of naloxone within the community of Bradford, and you you've launched a film now called You Can Save a Life. So tell me more about that.

SPEAKER_03 19:49

Yeah, so that was a campaign off the we're looking at the back of the overdoses and making the public aware of the overdose situation and how they can support and prevent that overdose risk from happening. So it was just it was shared on our social media sites and it showed the situation of somebody overdosing in the street. Well, he'd used in his flat gone out of the street and he'd overdose in the street, and it showed members of the public just walking on by and just leaving him on the street. It showed uh people coming into New Vision, getting trained out and using a lock in a naloxone and spotting the signs of an overdose. So on the second part of the video, it showed the same situation, he'd been in his flat, he'd use some heroin, and come outside, he'd overdose in the street. But on this occasion it showed a member of the public who'd been trained how to use an aloxone, administrating an a loxone, falling an ambulance, and so a person's life was then saved. Like you say, the stigma that people have around people just being drug users, they're just a drug user. Where what what what the actual thing is they're not just a drug user, they're a person, there's someone's loved ones and someone's sons, daughters, and you carrying the naloxone and save that person's life and send them home to a loved one is absolutely massive, and that's what it's all about.

SPEAKER_04 21:06

I guess with what you do and your job as a recovery coordinator, and you're out on the streets, I presume you've got quite a lot of stories of people actually using this naloxone and saving people's lives.

SPEAKER_03 21:16

Definitely. There was uh a recent incident in Bradford where a woman had overdoors, members of the public had actually called an ambulance, made a new vision aware of what was going on. Some of our outreach services were there quickly, give this woman some CPR, administered with some naloxone, and actually saved a life.

SPEAKER_04 21:36

The education that you're doing around that short film that shows you know it's somebody's somebody who's got into a life that probably doesn't want to be in that life, can't see a way out, cast aside on a street. But ultimately, it's a human being, and it's about us as communities getting together and thinking, Well, there's a reason why that person's on. The street.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

Yeah. I was uh involved with substances, heroin crap for a lot of years. I got under the spice as well. So um I lived on the streets for five years, you know what I mean? And in and out of prison. As you'll know, when you're out on the streets and you're not looking good and you're eight stone and dirty and you're unkept, people call call you, yeah, and you are belittled and you are sort of stigmatized, not just members of the public, but I think there's some people within services that have also got a bit of that um stigmatisation still goes on. I know it's reducing a lot now. The more services that we're all working together, all on the same page, looking at reducing, doing all our harm reduction work is absolutely critical.

SPEAKER_04 22:42

I I was involved with a guy from Hull who's lived on the streets, who's had trauma in his life. You know, he woke up one one day on the street and there were three guys urinating on him. And uh, you know, it it's just horrendous the things that happen. You know, it'd be great to see that film pushed out onto all social platforms wherever possible to highlight the fact that they are humans, they have got a mum, and and they deserve to live. So obviously, you've talked about your your uh experience or lived experience of being on the streets. Um and I guess you have a lot of empathy for people who are living on the streets at the moment.

SPEAKER_03 23:19

Yeah, loads of empathy. It's um such a difficult, challenging time. Like you say, you're not having no contact really with your family that hurts, you're missing your family, you're just surviving. It's daily survival. It's refining, trying to find your next meal. But most importantly, when you're living on the streets and you've got your substance misuse issues, you're trying to find your next way of getting your drugs.

SPEAKER_04 23:41

Yeah, and I I you know, when I 17 years ago when I picked up cocaine, the only drugs that I knew were ease, cocaine, speed. You know, I've never heard of anything else. And obviously now, you know, you're at the cold face at the moment, you're going out onto the streets. How has how has the drug market changed around that?

SPEAKER_03 24:01

Yeah, there's been a massive shift in like the trends. You're not seeing as many as the heroin users coming through. The trend in Bradford is spice, still a lot of crack use, a lot of benzos, ketamine's on the rise with the more younger generation. It's a really dangerous time with the synthetic opioids coming into the scene. Yeah, dangerous times.

SPEAKER_04 24:22

And I guess with that you've seen a lot more deaths.

SPEAKER_03 24:25

Yeah, that's why again the naloxone is absolutely valuable in where you're trying to prevent these deaths.

SPEAKER_04 24:31

I guess the cutting agents that they're now using these synthetic drugs in Bradford and probably all over the UK. What are they?

SPEAKER_03 24:39

Synthetic opioids are like a man-made, what what it is, it's like the it's like a hundred, some of it even more times stronger than what you'd your normal heroin use. Thinking what what happened? There was a bit of a shortage of heroin at times coming across to the UK. So people pick up on that and they've uh thought, how do we sort of influx that sort of market a little bit? So this is where the synthetic synthetic opioids came about, and you wouldn't know until you've actually injected it. So the time you've injected it, or the time you smoked it, or the time you swallowed a few tablets, it can be too late. You wouldn't know. So it's just it's just a massive danger, and like you say, it's risky times now for the whole, not just Bradford, the whole of the world. Yeah, because we're seeing these synthetic opioids on the rise all over the place.

SPEAKER_04 25:30

So uh obviously you people can come down to Bradford New Vision and and do the training. So, how long is the training?

SPEAKER_03 25:36

And the training only takes around in Habler, so it's not long out of people's time. And yeah, come down and you'll be shown how to administer it an alloxone. You can practice on how you do it, like with the injection side and the knee and uh the nasal spray.

SPEAKER_04 25:50

When you've completed your naloxo training and you've got your the tick in the box and you've and you've done what you've needed to do, do you get given a kit to take away?

SPEAKER_03 25:58

Yeah, you get a kit to take away, so you can carry that at all times.

SPEAKER_04 26:02

So right, brilliant. So, one last question from me to you. What would you like to see happen to bring down fatality numbers?

SPEAKER_03 26:10

All services to be involved in the Lockshorn training and to put and to spread that whole message around how we prevent drug deaths. Everyone's on the same page trying to prevent deaths.

SPEAKER_04 26:21

I think what's been great for me today is that obviously the passion that you've got for this, the short film that you've developed and put together called You Can Save Lives, you know, is saving lives. You're seeing it saving lives, and you know, with the 1600 people that you've trained moving forward, Bradford will become a safer place on the streets. You know, people can come in here for free, and not only with the Locksone training, but other training that is available. And you know, from me it's been great to be here today and see the see the work in action. And I wish you all the best in 2026. Thanks for coming on, Mick. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 26:56

In recovery.

unknown 27:02

In recovery.

SPEAKER_04 27:05

We love to champion groundbreaking campaigns on in recovery, and from tomorrow for the whole of September, the doors of the rehabs around the country will be open to visitors as part of the open houses campaign. Residential rehab is a vital but often misunderstood part of the treatment system. Many services have had to close over the past decade due to reduced funding, which has meant access has become more limited, despite clear evidence of its effectiveness and the growing need. Open Houses aims to change that by creating transparency, insight, and dialogue, helping people move beyond assumptions and see how services operate day to day. One of the leading voices of the campaign is the CEO of the Kemwood Trust and chair of Choices Rehab, Penny Williams. Welcome to In Recovery, Penny. How are you?

SPEAKER_02 27:53

I'm good. Thank you for having me uh on your podcast.

SPEAKER_04 27:57

So, firstly, hugely important month coming up. For those who know nothing about open houses, tell me more.

SPEAKER_02 28:03

So, open houses is uh a partnership between the Choices Rehabs Group, which is uh a membership group of 24 independent rehabs. We're very aware that people are not being able to access residential rehab easily, and it's very much a post-code lottery at the moment. And we felt it was really important whilst we're having conversations with government to also try and educate commissioners and other referrals, because referrals can come, you know, as a starting point from GPs, other services. There does seem to be at times misunderstandings of the sort of work that we do, how we operate, and the successes that we have. Open our doors, come and see what we actually do. You know, the the landscape's change so much, and it's it's uh an opportunity to let more people know that we've changed with that landscape and doing such you know innovative work.

SPEAKER_04 28:59

So I'm right in thinking that only 1% of people have state are state funded for drug and alcohol treatment in England. How have we got to that situation?

SPEAKER_02 29:08

The Dane Carroll Blatt report in 2021 suggested that 2% of the overall expenditure on drug and alcohol treatment should go to treating people in residential rehab. Sadly, that's not happening. We're probably dipping even under the 1% to about 0.9, with a prediction of by Christmas that will be 0.6. And that's part of the argument. In across Europe, many countries look at spending 11% of their budget on residential rehab because they know it works. It saves other services so much more, you know, anything from AE to police uh to even the criminal justice system by treating people's trauma, treating that addiction. You know, particularly at younger people, they are future workforce. If you can take them off the roundabout for 12 weeks, give them those tools, really drill down to the trauma that they may have suffered or other reasons for the addiction and change that behaviour early on. It's it's so powerful. It's so you you you experience it yourself, you know. It's so powerful and um, you know, it really helps me get up every day and do the job that I do because the rewards are huge in in turning people's uh lives around with the work that we do.

SPEAKER_04 30:21

It's great to see, and it and it and the more people we get through, the more voices that then can be heard in different areas, different age groups, I think, as well, which I think is key. And I mean the one of the disappointing things that I've also read that over the last 10 years, half of our rehabs have closed.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

Yeah, well, I I really fear I was on a call a few weeks ago, and I did say I don't know if this is politically correct, but I have to tell you, if if something doesn't change, I can see more rehabs closing by Christmas. The government is uh government officials are looking at how how they can support us and change, which is fantastic. But I feel that there is definitely urgency. And then in a few years' time, you know, as a country will say, ooh, why did we let that happen? And okay, well, we probably need to reinvest in this sector. It's it's so I can't stress enough. I think it is key the next six months to change perceptions, help assist pathways, and and also the funding.

SPEAKER_04 31:22

We when I probably three or four years ago, it was there isn't enough detox beds, people are being held up, we're not being we don't we can't detox people, so we can't get them into rehabs. Now all of a sudden it seems to me that there's detox beds available, but what they don't want to use is rehabs, they want to detox them and then take them into dayhab within their local drug and alcohol services.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

Again, it's geographical. Where we are in the south east, we've been hit badly by guys in St. Thomas closing for detox in London. So our local detox centre is a six-week waiting list, and as you know, that is just too long for some people. I currently have 22 waiting on my my waiting list who are waiting for either funding or detox. And I have got 17 empty beds. Where is the sense in any of that? I've heard of exactly what you're saying with the detox and then community. That's just not right for some people. It's a postcode lottery as to whether that that's that's what's happening.

SPEAKER_04 32:25

Yeah. And you know what you say, the there's no there's no hard and fast rule, is there? Wherever you are in the country, people are having different problems.

SPEAKER_02 32:33

No problem and and the need that you know, ultimately the need is there. Not enough people are given the funding and the pathway to residential rehab when so many of us have that bed space. And we all get those desperate calls, um, particularly from parents, because they just don't know how to get a referral or they just don't know how to best help somebody who's gone down this route for a long time. And that's you know, that's where residential rehab is in in particular an essential part of the service to help fix people quickly.

SPEAKER_04 33:10

So we open our doors to visitors on Wednesday, the 30th of September. How many rehabs around the country are are taking part?

SPEAKER_02 33:17

It's about 35. There's there's bound to be a rehab near you. Hopefully, it's something that we will continue with on an annual basis to raise this awareness.

SPEAKER_04 33:28

Yeah, and what can people expect when they sign up to a visit?

SPEAKER_02 33:31

It's about showing people around, meeting some residents, meeting some of the therapists at work with residents so that they can really see the environment and the depth of the work that we do. And here from you know, real life stories, this is what it did for me. And I think that's really, really important. And all that information is on the openhouses.org.uk website.

SPEAKER_04 33:55

Okay. And what do you think is the biggest misconception of what a residential rehab is? Oh, I think our question is. Yeah, I think the one I I think the one I've got is that when I do assessments for Ark House, I think one of the biggest things that comes across is is it a prison? It sounds like a prison. That's what they say to me.

SPEAKER_02 34:14

We had someone come direct from from the prison recently, and the first thing he was saying to my staff was, You're smiling. I'm not used to that in prison. Because it is, it's a it's a warm, welcoming environment. You have to work hard, don't get me wrong. But yes, it's a a very different environment. For me, that's one of the biggest myths is that we are this sort of yeah, archaic prison, uh, regimented uh environments, which we absolutely not are not. We are person-centred, flexible, and constantly about doing services to meet meet the needs that we're seeing.

SPEAKER_04 34:52

Certainly, when I came into treatment, I didn't have a routine outside of picking up drugs, using drugs, falling asleep, could have been at three o'clock in the morning, could have been at three o'clock in the afternoon. I think one of the vital things that rehab did for me was it it gave me a structure. It gave me back the thing that was missing in my life, which was a routine. I think that there's a need for that structure, but I'm also acutely aware that it is person-centred and that we we offer something, you know, with a smile on our face, with lived experience, and also with you know, a lot of highly educated people who can unearth trauma in a professional way.

SPEAKER_02 35:32

Yeah, no, 100%. You couldn't have put it better. I totally agree with you. It's it's that's absolutely what residential rehab is. Yeah, it's about finding the the programme and the facility that works for that person.

SPEAKER_04 35:45

Yeah. Well, listen, I want to thank uh yourself, Joyce's Rehabs, and the Kenwood Trust, and uh I hopefully that the 30th of September will be a roaring success. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 35:54

My pleasure, and I wish you every success with your event.

SPEAKER_04 36:05

Thanks to Penny, Millie and Mick, and to everyone who is doing life-changing work in the recovery community.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

We will be back next week as National Recovery Month starts with the founder of one of the UK's biggest TV companies responsible for hits, including Drop the Dead Donkey. Have I got news for you? I'm not anyway. Jimmy Mulville joins us.

SPEAKER_04 36:25

If you or a loved one are suffering from addiction or alcoholism issues, remember you're not alone. There is help. Reach out to ArcAut Rehab today.

SPEAKER_01 36:34

Stay safe and see you next week.