IN RECOVERY - The Ark House Podcast - S2 EP 17 - Feat ALASDAIR GILL (Chef and Author)

Welcome to IN RECOVERY - THE ARK HOUSE PODCAST, your weekly essential companion guide to recovery and well-being. This episode continues to celebrate National Recovery Month which takes place throughout September.  This month is to educate the public on mental health and substance use disorders, celebrate individuals in long-term recovery, and honour the dedication of treatment providers.

IN RECOVERY is a companion guide for those on their addiction recovery journey. We also want to offer advice and support for those still suffering and offer solutions for those who just want to know more. This is a well-being podcast produced and presented by people with lived experience who want to carry the message of recovery.

In this episode three more interviews with people who want to share their stories of hope, faith and courage as well as give game changing advice.  

ALASDAIR GILL is a London-based chef, writer, and author known for his raw and deeply personal commentary on food, kitchen culture, and addiction recovery. He is the son of the late, renowned British journalist and restaurant critic A.A. Gill and former Home Secretary Amber Rudd.

After spending a decade working in the chaotic, high-pressure environments of some of London's most prestigious restaurants, Alasdair transitioned away from commercial kitchens. He now works successfully as an international private chef and caterer. Aside from cooking, he is a prolific freelance writer whose work has appeared in high-profile publications including The Sunday Times, Tatler, Vice, and ST Style

He speaks to Richard about his incredible new book Knives and Spoons.

 Structured like a tasting menu—with each chapter titled after a specific dish—the memoir chronicles Gill’s rapid ascent from a kitchen porter to a head chef working in London’s most prestigious dining establishments. It heavily contrasts the glamour of preparing dishes for the ultra-wealthy and crossing paths with figures like Anthony Bourdain against the dark reality of drug-fuelled kitchen dens

To chat about the brand new K-Hole film, MATTHEW BUTLER joins us from ReNew Drug and Alcohol Services and the Believe In People Podcast who was key in making this brand new Ketamine Awareness campaign, alongside Inspired Youth.

• The Message: It highlights the rapid transition from casual, social rave use to severe psychological and physical dependency.
• Lived Experiences: The film features powerful local stories, including that of Adam Kennedy, a 26-year-old ReNew recovery worker who became bedbound due to severe ketamine addiction before turning his life around.
• Where to Watch: The full documentary is free to stream online via the Believe in People K-Hole Page and YouTube

Also joining us on this episode is former resident of Ark House, OLLIE, who shares his story of addiction alongside his Mum, SUE, who is also in recovery. Sam interviewed them separately but we have edited the two chats together. This is a powerful look at what can be very much a family disease. 

WATCH K-HOLE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCDrsMeCbuQ

BUY KNIVES AND SPOONS

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Knives-Spoons-Kitchens-Addictions-Mayhem/dp/1037401433

IN RECOVERY - THE ARK HOUSE PODCAST is thrilled to be named one of the Best Podcasts by The Sunday Times (June 2026) and is riding high in the charts (Number 10 in the global Mental Health charts), as we continue our second season.  We are so grateful to everyone for their support. If you are listening on Apple or Spotify - we would love you to leave us a review.

SAM AND RICHARD - THE HOSTS

Are both in recovery themselves and so have lived experience of alcoholism and addiction. 

If you or a loved one need help from addiction, please know there is help. Reach out and speak to Ark House today....

PHONE 01723 371869

EMAIL info@arkhouserehab.co.uk

ADDRESS 15 Valley Road, Scarborough, Y011 2LY

WEBSITE www.arkhouserehab.co.uk

FACEBOOK  @arkhouserehabltd

INSTAGRAM @in_recovery_podcast

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:00

In Recovery. Welcome to In Recovery, the Amhouse Podcast, a companion gab if you're on your recovery journey.

SPEAKER_06 0:21

Or if you simply want to hear the science and stories behind addiction, this is to help everyone live a better life.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Coming up in today's episode, we speak to the son of A Gill, a renowned chef and author who is telling us his recovery journey. Alistair Gill speaks to Richard.

SPEAKER_06 0:35

We shine a light on the growing problem of ketamine as we speak about a huge new awareness campaign.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

And we also speak to a former resident of Anaus, Ollie, and his mum who are both in recovery from addiction.

SPEAKER_06 0:46

Welcome to In Recovery, the Anakaus Podcast. Every episode we speak to someone in the spotlight who has battled addiction and is here to share hope for everyone listening. Today, someone who is celebrating the release of his new book, Knives and Spoons, tells a chef's story of kitchens, addictions, and mayhem. Son of the journalist, author and critic A.A. Gill, our guest today has worked in some of the most prestigious kitchens, experiencing exhilarating highs and harrowing lows. He has turned his life round from addiction and has found a renewed passion for his craft. His book is honestly one of the best accounts of addiction we have read on this show. He described it as a book for people who don't read books. It's a pleasure to welcome to the podcast chef and writer Alice Dare Gill. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's a real pleasure to be here. Obviously, we've read your book and we rate it a five-star. What's it been like seeing the reaction to something that is so personal to you?

SPEAKER_03 1:52

Yeah, it's been what I mean, it's been incredibly uh terrifying at times. You know, it's it's sort of been a bizarre process of you know, firstly writing it, then having this other dawning of, you know, I almost wrote it in a way without any expectation or really realizing that anyone was gonna read it.

SPEAKER_05 2:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:09

And then when it became this whole new, you know, publication, people reading and you know coming back to you, it's just been like, oh my god, it's so scary. But you know, like all these things, and like what recovery has taught me just in general, is you know, this the connection of someone else hearing just you know your story and then replying back saying, I identify exactly what that is. It's just the most magical moment that makes it all worth it, you know.

SPEAKER_06 2:30

So, in terms of the book, there's some there's some highlights that I just want to chat about with you, and one that I really resonate with is you say that the loud and chaotic kitchen was the calmest place for your rattling mind. Is that rattling mind something you always struggled with?

SPEAKER_03 2:45

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I always say that you know, I was uh I was an addict way before, you know, it's I even tried booze as a kid, you know, as that kid who would hide all the sweeties in his room and then join the search party. And then, you know, I I did that with drugs. There's kind of you know a big a big thought in the public of like um, you know, chefing being the thing that makes the addict when actually it's it's kind of the other way around in my in my you know experience. It's the addict can go in there and actually it's it does amazing things for us a lot of the time. It's hard working and it grinds us down so much and can make us go insane. But you know, it was it was keeping me busy from the things outside the kitchen.

SPEAKER_06 3:25

I love how you give the inner workings of a kitchen, you talk about the nook and what happens in there. Tell us more.

SPEAKER_03 3:31

Yeah, so well, I mean it's just it it's it's one of those funny things, right? I wanted it that I find has always been part of the kitchens that no, no one really knows about is the sort of there's always some sort of dead space in a kitchen where you know you go to sort of just take a breath or you know, go crouch down and eat a sandwich or drink. Um, these nooks were just where we wanted to be all the time. We were in and out of just these complete drinking drug deads that were just this little coffin. It was kind of remarkable.

SPEAKER_06 3:58

You know, I worked in a kitchen, and you had the front kitchen, the back kitchen where they were doing pastries and what have you, and a walking fridge and a walking freezer. And you know, I did spend quite some time in both of those using. And it was just that quiet place, wasn't it? It was that you could shut the door and be alone, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 4:14

It's a pause to the rhythm, right, of everything else, and it's it's uh it it it's exactly that quiet, different temperature place, and it feels like the most quiet place in the world, only in comparison to what's the other side of it, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 4:29

Your set menu was cocaine, ketamine, Zalex. How did substances come into your life? Very fast and hard.

SPEAKER_03 4:36

I don't think they came into my life, I think I came into theirs. I come from a you know, pretty loving, good background. It wasn't that's I think that's pertinent to sort of stay, because it's not like I raised I was raised in a house full of heroin. I really went looking for it. I was really on the hunt for this stuff, and that shows, you know, I think the discomfort in my skin that I had before. The same with the kitchen worth and feeling worth in the kitchen. I hadn't felt anything at school that had given me any sort of inkling of God, you're doing a good job here. You know, there's worth here for you. I never felt that feeling for you know my first sort of 17, 18 years of my life until I got to a kitchen and just restaurants, even front of house and back of house, where suddenly there was this moment of, you know, we need you on shift. That's uh it's a really profound feeling, I guess. It's a I think it's it's it's very lost on people who do well at school. You know, and that's what you know restaurants are much more of a skipping stone for that.

SPEAKER_06 5:30

I went to a private school, hated every lesson that I sat in. Give me a rugby ball, and and I found my purpose. I um I could excel and got a pat on the back for it. But then the minute I walked back into that changing room and had to put my school uniform on and go sit in an English lesson, I was just a nobody, hide at the back of the class. I knew I was different to everybody sat in that class.

SPEAKER_03 5:53

Yeah. Well, it's so much, it's really interesting that, and it I can completely reflects pretty much exactly right, my story and probably like everyone's story in addiction, in a way. And it's this it's this huge run-up, I think, of also just feeling kind of shame, I guess, in my own way. You know, the shame of everyone else is doing something that I can't do. Young boys and young girls that would all need to feel worth. They need to be shown that there's that they're worthwhile wherever they are.

SPEAKER_06 6:19

Yeah. So you you share an incredible journey with your dad from feeling very different to him, sleeping beside him before he passed away, and then an incredible moment when you read his book in rehab for the first time. Just tell us a little bit about the journey of you and your dad.

SPEAKER_03 6:33

I mean, how long you got, you know, it's it's it's it's a tricky journey. But you know, I think I don't know anyone, especially in the rooms, who doesn't have a tricky journey when they talk about their dad. In i in addiction, I never felt, to be honest, that similar to him or or even that close with him. Um, and then I grew this whole other relationship with him after um he passed and after I got sober. And the first relationship that I built when I got clean was with my dad, who had, you know, died three, four years ago by being able to go through his words that it felt so profoundly sort of left for me in a way. You know, that that was the beginning of really the rest of my life that he was able to give me that.

SPEAKER_06 7:14

And a quote from the book that's incredible, when when you read the book, you say it was my story, but decades before, by someone I thought I never resembled. I guess did reading give you closure then on that?

SPEAKER_03 7:27

Yeah, in a sense, it kind of, you know, it it also completely opened up something, I suppose. It was seeing, you know, I'd always seen such an amazing uh, you know, sort of figure as my dad was, and it didn't it never really computed that he had, you know, had the sort of addictions that I had. Being able to see that he had done exactly what I had done, down to even passing out of the same pubs that I used to pass out in. It was just it was I I couldn't believe it. And the same hallucin, you know, we we'd hallucinate the same sort of animals. The despair was just sort of a beautifully way of saying anything that I was able of saying about myself is what I've been wanting to say. It was like, but this man had said it so beautifully. Um, and so it was this thing of saying, This is possible, you know, this is what I was you, and I did this. And so suddenly it was this first opening of maybe maybe a different life was on the cards. And then, yeah, so I was in rehab for the summer of 2020. Yeah, I remember it was it was a really, really sad time. You know, it was it was at the end of my using, uh, it had all come to an end. It was almost kind of you know, I guess poetic that it was happened to be locked down. But I actually I think that the the the irony when I look back on it is it I I I nearly didn't notice there was a lockdown. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 8:45

I mean, to be honest with you, that was the same with me. It was the first time I came into the treatment centre and I'd switched to teleon. And you know, on the news there was 4,000 people dying or something that I was unaware of. So you describe your rock bottom on rock bottom as not an event but a place, a grim little bedsit you inhabited for quite some time. Just tell me more about that.

SPEAKER_03 9:06

Yeah, well, that is I think you know, I think when I don't know about you, but but you know, I felt so so many people, most people when they hear about addictions, is the rock bottom is filled the most exciting thing people want to hear about, right? Yeah. When like for me, it's just like there are countless. Yeah, I could give you a hundred stories, but it's it's much more a place than an event, you know. It became so confusing at this state. That's what my rock bottom was. Was it was realizing that the extent of how little control I had, and these moments that I would try and go, okay, for the first time, I'm gonna not drink for a week. I had this moment where I was really like barking at myself in the mirror, going, I'm making a pact, I'm not doing this, that's it. And then two 40 minutes I'm drunk on the sofa. And if honestly felt like, you know, just like uh like sort of a movie of it, just sort of, you know, time just sort of jumping 40 minutes, and I'm drunk and I'm like, what has just happened? I'm so out of my depths here. I haven't really tried to quit my whole life in my 27 years. And now that I've tried to, I I just I can see that I am completely effed here. Then life really went down into that trapdoor rock bottom after realizing actually I'm stuck.

SPEAKER_06 10:14

Yeah, and I think that that you describe it in the book, which is which is a beautiful way to do it. There's another great quote when you talk of knowing things were at the worst, you say it was like someone else piloting your body straight into a wall wall whilst you sat duct taped in the passenger seat. For anyone who may be feeling like that now, what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_03 10:36

Reach out for help, you know. It's just that's the biggest thing. I think it's but it's exactly like that. I felt exactly like, you know, just jump forward, crash, and I didn't know how this was happening. That I I I fought to do this by myself for so long. And looking back, I just don't know why I would want to do it by myself. It's in all of us, is that's the one thing we all have in common as addicts when we come into the rooms is we all think we're different. We're all exactly the same on those first things, feeling the same things of no one here's gonna get me. I I've gotta hold on to these things and not tell anyone. But that is ultimately what addiction is. That is how my addiction manifests. So it's just let somebody know. How did rehab change you? What happened? Uh it's life-changing, but it just doesn't feel right to say it's amazing. It's the first time ever I was given uh a clean brain to think for in 20 years. Yeah, that was the sort of the most profound thing that rehab gave me. And the second you get that sort of clean brain, that was the markings to build something and question your life for the better, right? I I I think if I had really also gone into the rooms, you know, the same help is there, right? So don't be put off by anyone who, you know, who who can't go immediately. Just get yourself to the rooms and get yourself well known there and put your hand up, don't sit in the back. You know, that's always what I do because you'll just get that's you know, it's it's about it's about being part of the meeting as opposed to just uh being there, right?

SPEAKER_06 12:07

I started listening to people and the way they talked, and it was the first time I no longer felt alone.

SPEAKER_03 12:13

And you know, they say it's always it can just take one chair to sort of connect and everything's kind of changed for you, and that's so true for me. And I think it's also pertinent to know that that that doesn't always have to be a good chair. You know, for me, it was actually someone sharing after weeks of me not getting it, and someone shared, you know, I I don't get this at all, and I want to use. And I went, Yeah, you know this guy gets it, that's exactly me. And that connection was also weirdly something that kept me in there, you know, because it's also knowing that okay, there are other people feeling this.

SPEAKER_06 12:46

Something we all have to get used to is losing people from the disease. Jay was somebody incredibly special to you. Was it important to tell those stories in this book?

SPEAKER_03 12:55

Yeah, it um yeah, it was. It was really tough. Um, but more than anything, I just I feel for the few friends who I mention in there who are who passed, I think about them all the time, and it's it's they were they were they weren't just addicts, you know. They were really amazing people and really people who had a who changed me for the better, and I carry with them with me all the time, and it's it's a way I guess of what I wanted to immortalise them into paper in some way as well.

SPEAKER_06 13:25

So there's an amazing quote I read about early in recovery. It's called uncomfortable rebirth. Learning to live life as an adult toddler. It's like suddenly the curtains open to an audience that you're just there holding a trumpet and leading the brass band. I have no idea what I'm doing here. When the fuck did everyone else learn to play? How long did it take you to relearn your life?

SPEAKER_03 13:48

I'm still learning. I've just done twinkle twinkle little style very badly. But it's exactly how I feel. You know, it's it's when getting entering the race of life I felt at 27, and I just didn't I didn't understand, you know, how to do taxes, how to wash my clothes properly, and I couldn't understand I was meant to be doing all these things. When did every I I just don't get it? It's like this this blueprint, right? That we just I just didn't get to life that everyone else seemed to. I'm gonna keep practicing and I will make the band that you are. And I guess that's what we missed. Totally. And so much of life from that point was just pretending to know, right? So that I didn't get questioned about anything else. That's what a lot of school and a lot of before I got clean, that's what life was, was just pretending to know to not get questioned best I can. Life was, to be honest, like in many ways, life was so easy when I was using and I wanted to kill myself, and now life is so hard, but it's kind of wonderful.

SPEAKER_06 14:48

When you first come into the rooms, yeah, it's all about drugs and alcohol. Yeah, when you're six years down the line, it's not about drugs and alcohol anymore, it's about how the hell do I get through today without pissing somebody off? Exactly. And and and that's what the 12 steps is for me today, is trying to navigate through that. We make it hard. Yeah, exactly. So you've returned to the kitchen. How does that feel today?

SPEAKER_03 15:12

I feel you know, there's I've been doing it for like five years, and uh at first uh in early sobriety, I was kind of it getting very lonely, but um, you know, it's it's it's I feel incredibly lucky now. I've just my my son was born like six months ago, and it's just one of those moments where I just have to pinch myself. I can't I can't believe it, and yeah, it's filled with such amazing joy and disbelief, but then also just so much terror.

SPEAKER_04 15:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:38

As he gets bigger, you know, of just am I gonna be good enough? Is this can I give him enough? Um is he gonna go through all this shit all over again one day at a time, right?

SPEAKER_06 15:49

I've got five boys and I and I'm present for all of them today, and and for 17 years I was nowhere to be seen.

SPEAKER_03 15:54

Wow, what amazing thing to say, yeah. It's a remarkable thing to say. I've got addict problems today, right? But my problems aren't actually drinking booze, which is a remarkable thing. You know, I actually don't think about drinking booze as much as I think about tying my shoelace, which I find tricky sometimes. But you know, I wish actually I'd heard that more in early recovery and just before I got clean. I wish that I had heard actually it does get you do stop thinking about it. The obsession does completely leave you, and it is remarkable.

SPEAKER_06 16:25

And today it's that it's that freedom and that peace and that serenity that this programme's given us that allows us to be present for for children, be able to go to work and to be trusted, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 16:38

And uh yeah, exactly completely, and it can even push to a gift, actually, can't it? You know, I I often say it it even from perspective, I actually think I'd rather be, you know, a recovering addict on this side of the wall than not one at all. Because it's given me some incredible things that I've opened up and connecting with people that I think actually even normal citizens, you know, don't have. Fucking stick with it. I always say to people, you know, they're nervous about coming in. It's just like if you don't like it, you can always have a drink after. You know, it's just you might as well give it a go. You can always go back to drinking.

SPEAKER_06 17:15

Well, listen, you know, uh thank you so much for spending the time with me today. And I could talk to you for hours. Yeah, and I could probably do about another three podcasts. I mean, your story is fascinating and your book is amazing. And you know, I I wish you all the success with the book, with your new life, and and and with your little boy.

SPEAKER_03 17:36

Thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining today. Yeah, I will. Are you yours? It was such a pleasure. I hope we guys can do something again soon.

SPEAKER_04 17:45

In recovery.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Every week we speak to a former graduate of AC House who walked through the doors of our treatment centre broken and is now living a life in recovery. Addiction is a family disease having a devastating ripple effect on family members and loved ones. But what happens when both mother and son are addicts? Our guest from episode one of the podcast is back with us today, alongside his mum Sue, both addicts and both in recovery. I'm speaking to them separately, but you will hear the interview s by sad. Let us say hello to both of them. Welcome back to In Recovery, Ollie. You doing alright, mate?

SPEAKER_05 18:24

I'm good, thanks. Yeah, really good to meet you.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Hello, Sue, how are you? Oh hi, it's lovely to meet you. Firstly, thanks for coming on today. How do you find talking about Ollie's addiction journey?

SPEAKER_00 18:36

I find it now a lot easier to talk about it because he's now recovered. It's beyond my wildest dreams that he's he's now recovered.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

So Ollie has been clean and sober now for over two years, but spent 20 years in active addiction. Did it come to a point where you thought there was no hope?

SPEAKER_00 18:53

At the uh very end, I had to make a really painful decision, which was to tell him that I couldn't see him unless he was um clean and sober. And there was a period of seven months when I didn't see him at all, and uh it was the hardest thing that I'd ever done. It was like heartbreaking, but I knew I had to do it because he needed to get to that place where he he really wanted to do it.

SPEAKER_05 19:19

While I was definitely resentful and and hurt and felt quite abandoned at the time, I see I I I see it completely differently today. I see that that was that's the best thing she's ever done for me. It was done with love, it was done with out of out of desperation, you know. It's it's the last thing a mother wants to do is is is to cut cut ties with with her own son, but but I really understand that that she had to do that for her own sanity.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Your mum was in addiction as well. How much did that play a part in your journey?

SPEAKER_05 19:47

Well, my mum being an alcoholic isn't the reason that I'm one, definitely not. But we did, you know, we we we drank and smoked weed together. Um while while we had a lot of fun, it started to become something that was perhaps a little bit dysfunctional. We were both dying, you know. There's there's no doubt that we wouldn't have lived much longer the way that we were living. Today we get to live and not not just live and be and be clean and be sober, but but be useful, you know, have a purpose of direction.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

Ollie and I used to drink and smoke together, which now I'm very ashamed of. I it got very dark for me. I was very fortunate because I came into recovery first, and I think God knew that I needed to be in recovery first. I threw this bottle of water at him. I didn't normally do things like that, and as as the bottle of water left my hand, this very still quiet voice said, You've got to stop, and that's when I stopped drinking.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

Sue told us about having a spiritual experience during an argument with you that helped us to stop drinking. Do you remember a specific moment in your journey?

SPEAKER_05 20:50

I I I have this clear memory of the last day that that I drank. I was in this flat. I'd I'd kind of destroyed the flat. I was just drinking like insane amounts of vodka. I I I remember the just having this this conversation with my mum. I called her up and I was just in floods of tears, like, like this this kind of guttural noise kept coming out of me, and I was I was just curled up and just in so of course in so much self-pity.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

How did you see Ollie change as he slid further down, you know, with the substances and you know, the substances getting worse?

SPEAKER_00 21:23

He was in a homeless shelter. I used to go and visit him all all the time, and you know, I could see his decline. He wasn't washing, he was wearing really horrible clothes, he just wasn't looking after himself. I remember seeing that he was like scratching his legs, and I didn't understand at that point, but he'd started heroin, smoking heroin at that point.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

How did he react when you got clean and sober?

SPEAKER_00 21:48

Well, it was while he was away for seven months, that's when I I I stopped drinking and I I went through the steps. I thought, right, God's telling me. To go and see Oliver at his flat. So I but I went up to his flat and I I like bounded through the door and I was like, I've I've given up drinking. And he could see it. I know he could. Even though there was the fog of drugs and everything, he could see it. And from that point, it was much easier to deal with him because I completely understood what was going on with him. And I I'd read the book, and I you see, I can read the book from a um Alan on Cohenon um perspective, and I can read the book from my own perspective.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

What was it like when your mum came to where you were staying clean and sober?

SPEAKER_05 22:40

Again, I really remember that. I was I was shocked. I was shocked that she was that she was clean and sober. And I was I was certainly happy. I I remember saying something like, Oh, I I don't know if this was after the event, but saying something like, Oh, I knew I knew that there was something different about you, and I kind of wanted her to drink again so I could drink with her, you know, and that that's incredibly selfish. I didn't understand what what she was doing. She was just demonstrating to me that you know what, you can get clean and sober.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

How do you feel now over two and a half years clean?

SPEAKER_05 23:12

Obviously, incredibly blessed to to have this way of life. It's been really interesting. There's been a lot of quite quite a lot of lot of pain, but also a lot of growth. Because any any time that I'm in, some sort of discomfort, you know, it generally indicates that there's a lot of growth available on the other side. And you know, I'm two two and a half years, you know, I'm still incredibly new on this path. I'm really, really still finding my feet.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

We know it's not until we have this internal he he describes that he had this internal snap, and it wasn't it he had to get to that point, so any consequence wouldn't have been enough. It had to be this complete brokenness before he wanted to change, and that's it, you know, it's the same for me. And at that point, I knew that he was ready to take what was on offer at Arc.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

Thankfully, Ollie is one of the lucky ones who has found recovery. How have you seen him change over the last two years?

SPEAKER_00 24:08

Oh my goodness, mate, it's just so incredible. Do you know what? I'm just so proud of him and the way that he carries himself. Um I've said to him, you know, it's like he's a new person. It says we are reborn, and he is reborn. It's just so mature now. He really has matured, he really lives in the steps, you know. He really lives in 10, 11, and 12. It's mind-blowing, and it's the most incredible part of my recovery because I see just the power of God in the fact that we've both recovered.

SPEAKER_05 24:47

I think the the the the main the main way that that I've changed is that I took from the world for so long and from people that that that that has shifted quite dramatically. My motives for life have changed, and and the biggest motive is that that I'm here to be useful, whether that's to to my family, whether that's to my fellows, to the people that I work with. That that that that's an incredible change.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

What's the relationship like now with your mum? And how does it feel to both be in recovery?

SPEAKER_05 25:17

So much better than it than it's ever been. So much better. It's it's beautiful, you know. I'm not not gonna say that there's not certain challenges, of course there is. You know, there is in any relationship that I have, but because we're both following this path, like you know, I visit her a lot, we we we have some really good quality time together. We we still analyze and and kind of look at look at the past, but I have I have so much love for that woman. It's it's incredible, and you know, God willing, it'll just it'll just continue.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

Um he's made amends to me. Oh, that was just yeah, well, of course I was crying, but do you know I knew he was nervous, so he was I kind of knew it was the time when he was gonna make amends to me. And he came to visit, and he's like really nervous and like twitching and and was like walking around, and I'm thinking he's not gonna make amends to me. And he he really didn't need to be nervous because I knew the process, but it yeah, it was a beautiful process. I also made amends to him, and that also was a beautiful process as well, and that changed our relationship as well.

SPEAKER_05 26:28

You know, there was that there was things that I had to tell her, and there was a lot of resistance to the one to my mom, even though you know she she's in recovery and she understands the process. You know, you'd think that that'd be easier, but actually it's not. It wasn't for me, you know. When I put it off, I was there, I put it off. I could tell she knew that I was gonna make amends, and I'm putting it off for like three days, and she's getting like a bit a bit annoyed, I think. She's like, You're gonna make this amends or not? She never said that, but I could tell, and then in the end I did it, and yeah, it was it was it was so powerful, you know. I can't I I can't comprehend fully the the the pain that I've caused her. I don't think I ever will be able to.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

Having lived through it, what would you say now to other addicts who may be suffering alongside family members?

SPEAKER_05 27:12

So I think the first thing to look at is that our recoveries need to be separate. There can be no expectation on the other person getting clean and so a lot alongside you at the at the same time. Sometimes that does happen. It's it's working for me in this in this moment it's working for me. It's working for my mum, it's working for countless other people, countless miracles that I see across the fellowship. You know, come and join us. You know, you don't have to suffer anymore, and you never have to drink and use again.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

If there is any people listening that have a child in addiction, what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_00 27:45

I would say don't give up. You know, there is there is hope. I would say it's really important not to enable your child. You didn't cause it, you can't control it and you can't change it, but you can be just an example for your child. You know, get support for yourself. It's really important so that you can continue to live your life even though your child's still in addiction. With Ollie and I, we have a great relationship. Uh, when we spend time with each other, we're not smoking cannabis and drinking together. Now we do prayer and meditation together. I just I just can't believe it, you know. It that's so beautiful to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Hey, what's next in your recovery journey?

SPEAKER_05 28:35

I have no idea, and again, that that's the beauty of this way of living. I don't know. And you know what, I don't need to know. I really don't know, but I do know that I'm gonna be alright.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Oh, thanks so much, Ali. Oh, thank you all so much for coming on the podcast. So it's been a ple it's been a pleasure to have you. And do you know what such beautiful and inspiring, you know, the message you're carrying? Thank you. Have a lovely afternoon. Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 29:20

Every week we speak to a professional working within the recovery community to give us a better understanding of addiction and the recovery journey. This week we are joined by a guest of season one who is a volunteer and community lead for Renewing Hull. He also hosts the Believe in People podcast, winner of a British Podcast Award and makers of a brand new documentary called K-Hole, a film which explores the rising trend of ketamine use and its severe health impacts. It's a pleasure to welcome back to the podcast Matthew Butler. Hi, how are you? I'm good, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

I can't do the intros that you've just done. I have to do them afterwards. I feel so much pressure. Doing it in front of a guest. So if I flirt you for trying for trying to get through it, mate. I have to do what farm takes a bit.

SPEAKER_06 30:04

Right, so let's get now into it. So you've worked for a new for over 11 years now. What were the major changes in drug and alcohol addiction you've seen?

SPEAKER_02 30:11

I don't think you get many young people born in like the 90s, especially not the noughties, that are coming in with you know a heroin dependency. It seems to be on you know non-opiate substances now. So I think that's some of the biggest changes that I've seen over the last 11 years is the people that are coming through the doors are presenting with different problems.

SPEAKER_06 30:29

It's interesting. I mean, I've only been been in recovery for six years, and I think since I've been in ARC, I've probably seen one heroin addict. Yeah. And a lot of the younger age, which is what we're going to come to now, is the you know, the documentary you've done about Ket Hole, you know, ketamine is huge. I know it's huge in Hull. Yeah, yeah. How did it come about this film then?

SPEAKER_02 30:47

Yeah, so uh ketamine when it was first mentioned to me, you know, seemed like quite a small issue. Now, part of what I've learned from the documentary, and it's been interesting to speak with professionals, they said they've seen people that have been using ketamine for two years whose body physically is in a worse condition than someone that's been slamming opiates into the veins for you know 15-20 years. The damage is happening quicker. There's no real way to fully mitigate the harm that that substance can cause. You know, it's it's absolutely wreaking havoc on people's bladders and you know all the things that come with it. And so one of the things that we were given was was a set amount of money basically to create an awareness campaign that we hope will reach young people, that they will listen to it. They will not necessarily see just advice from professionals, which of course is there, but actually see people with lived experience. You have to listen to that advice. It's trying to hit people, hit people with some truths hard at home and say, look, this is this is gonna be you within the next 12 months if you don't make changes and you make those changes now. I guess it's looking at the misconceptions that that we're we're getting at here because a lot of professionals are still thinking that ketamine is only rife among young people because it's cheap or as a cheaper alternative to cocaine. One thing, and I thought that before I started this documentary, the one thing I've learned is that's the non-issue. People are using ketamine because they like what ketamine is doing to them. Ketamine, as I've learned, is a disassociate drug. There's a massive link there, what I've seen so far, between neurodiversity and ketamine users. Every ketamine user that I've spoken to so far is either diagnosed or undiagnosed ADHD. But it's interesting to hear professionals say one thing, and then speak to someone lived experience and go, no, I'm using ketamine because I like ketamine.

SPEAKER_06 32:25

I've always been of the opinion, you know, I've I I I sponsored a couple of lads who were ketamine users who have now been recovery. And I used to sort of say to them, you know, why are you why have you used that cheap stuff? Yeah and these guys have got really good jobs. And they the ex they explained it just how you explained it, you know, 29-year-old, my head's all over the shop. I'm looking at computers all day. I just need someone to shut the world out.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

That's what it did to me. One of the parts that's really interesting is how normal it is. So there's a scene where we're all on Morgan Beach uh and we're we're talking real casually, and it's sort of something that you'd say with your mates, you know, if you was drunk and having a laugh and like, oh, I've just gotta go, I've just pissed myself and everybody laughs. But she just said it real sincerely. She said, Right, I'll be back in five, should I just piss myself? And we went, Oh, okay. And she walked off. Yeah. And she came back like five minutes later and was like, All right, and I said, You're right, she went, Yeah, that seemed really strange to me that this really pretty young girl will just in in front of people that she's just met that day, say, right, I'll be back in five and just but that's her normal. Yeah, that is her normal, that happens on a daily. So whilst it was a little bit like, oh wow, okay, that happened to her, that is just normal. She will sit in the bath for around three hours because of how much sort of pain she she can be in. It's like three hours a day, roughly just spent sat in a bath, and that's normal to her. And I was like, Jesus Christ, that's honest. Um, but I hope people that maybe you know are maybe using Ketman that see this documentary will actually realise right it's important to be honest with professionals because the the sooner you're honest about it, the sooner you can get help about it as well. Which is a win-win, isn't it?

SPEAKER_06 33:58

And I guess what would be great is in in in terms of the documentary and what have you, you know, I you know, you sit in a doctor's waiting room, don't you? There's a television up there and advertising all sorts of stuff. It would be great to have that rolling out on there where the doctors can actually see it and review it and think, yeah, we probably need to ask this question a little bit more. And you might have a patient sat there looking up there and thinking, yeah, it might be the time because I to be honest.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

I I think when I I mean I said earlier, for the past 11 years, it has been opiate and alcohol that we focus on. I if someone said to me what would you envision drug services looking like in 20 years from now, I think it'll be rapid treatment for ketamine use. That just seems to be the way that we're going.

SPEAKER_06 34:41

Following an official review, the advisory council on the misuse of drugs, advise against moving the drug from a class A to class B, what are your views on this?

SPEAKER_02 34:51

It's one of those things where it it's it's interesting, but it doesn't make a difference, does it? The focus that we should have are on the people that are using the substances. Changing the classification doesn't change that. Like I said, the the time frame is so short, you have to get, you know, talk about early intervention. Ketamine use is early, early intervention. I think you know, the second someone mentions that ketamine use we need to be linked in with urology, there needs to be something there. You can't just give advice and say, well, try taking less ketamine. Do you know it just doesn't work, does it? So, yeah, the classifications are it's there for a reason, I understand it, but I don't think it will help.

SPEAKER_06 35:25

You know, the irreversible damage um to bladders causing immense pain, bleeding, incontinency, yeah, sometimes requires surgical removal of the bladder. You know, is that is that the consequences that you're seeing now?

SPEAKER_02 35:37

Yeah, I think it was interesting speaking to to urology because I mean I had it kind of in my head before starting this documentary that people will be on stomachs almost instantly. Do you know? After speaking on urology, there's actually a really long process before we get to that point of things that they can do before then.

SPEAKER_06 35:52

The deaths that are taking place, so 15 deaths in 2014, and it's projected 197 deaths annually. Do you think people are aware of the this?

SPEAKER_02 36:02

No, I think I think as well with with any substance, there's this ignorance. It's like anything, there's always an ignorance. I I saw an advert recently said one in three people would get cancer. There's three of us sat in this room right now, all of us are thinking, well, it's not going to be me. So there's an element there, isn't it? We see that with everything. So when we see things related to uh drug-related deaths, when we see things related to overdoses, it's one of them things where it's like that won't happen to me. That one in three people may very much be me.

SPEAKER_06 36:29

Yeah. So they're probably not seeing, they probably haven't got four mates, they've all got plenty of issues. It's probably, you know, they're sat there thinking, well, I've got an infection because I'm using ketamine.

SPEAKER_02 36:39

And because of the stigma of it, I think if you do have friends that are using ketamine, you're not going to talk to each other and say, but by the way, I've been experiencing this. Yeah. I pissed myself last year. You're not going to say that, are you? Because there's that shame attached to it. So I actually thought a kettle was a physical place, like a crack den. I genuinely thought that. Do you know my ignorance to it? This is this is why I love doing what I do, the way I can learn. So when people say, Oh, yeah, I was in a kettle recently, I'm thinking they're all sat there in a little crack den with each other. But it's not, it's a state of mind, isn't it? It's a place where you go, it's the disassociate uh disassociation of it.

SPEAKER_06 37:11

So, you know, with regards to the film, you know, what is the most shocking story that you've you've seen whilst producing?

SPEAKER_02 37:18

Yeah, I I think it's it's one of the things where of course there's things that that shocking in the sense of, I mean, you know, thinking about Amber's story, bless her. Just she got pregnant, she was right, I'm gonna stop using Ketman, and she did, but then you know, after not long after having a a baby, with that hormonal effects that she was experiencing, you know, related to that birth, she started using Ketman again. She just felt really guilty for dropping a child off at a friend's office so she could go and score Ketamin. I don't want to shock people in that sense of like, you know, gripping headline. I actually just want to get a reality of it, and I think that's what people will relate to more, rather than that shocking experience where people think, oh, that would never be me. Trying to share more stories that people can relate to and associate with, and and that will hit home a little bit more as to oh yeah, I could probably see myself in that situation or doing something like that, or I've done something similar as well.

SPEAKER_06 38:06

And I think what what you said there around it's not about shock, it's about education, I guess. And not only get educating the youngsters, but also professionals, doctors, hospitals, because you know, my experience has been they're they're naive as to what's going on, and you know, I've certainly seen women who won't get seen by neurologists until they're off ketamine, you know, and it and it's that I can't get off ketamine because I need it because I'm in pain, yeah, and it's all that stuff, isn't it? And hopefully, you know, Ket Hole will help professionals understand as to what's happening, you know, out there in the communities. You know, Matthew, it's it's been great again to meet you. Thank you for for coming out and chatting to me.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

You can watch Khole right now on YouTube. Together we can help those suffering from ketamine addiction.

SPEAKER_06 38:56

Thanks to all our guests today. You can buy Alistair Dare's book right now. It's an amazing read.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

We will be back next week with winner of SAS Who Dares Wins Jimmy Priestley.

SPEAKER_06 39:05

You can watch exclusive clips on our Instagram and Facebook pages, as well as finding out detailed information about Ark House rehab.

SPEAKER_01 39:13

If you have a loved one or suffering from addiction issues, then please know you are not alone. Reach out to us at Arc House today.