What Shapes Resilience When Life Begins With Loss? | Peter Drewett

In this conversation, Tim Levy sits with Peter Drewett, international rugby coach and high-performance leadership expert, to explore resilience, identity, and the experiences that shape how people perform under pressure.

Across more than three decades in elite sport, Peter has helped prepare teams for over 350 internationals and 18 Rugby World Cups. From leading England U21s to their first ever Six Nations Grand Slam to helping build the high-performance culture that later powered Exeter Chiefs’ Premiership success, his career has focused on understanding what allows individuals and teams to thrive when the stakes are highest.

But Peter’s story begins long before professional sport. After spending his earliest years in Ghana, his childhood was shaped by loss. His mother died when he was seven, his father remained in Africa, and Peter grew up moving between families — learning early how to adapt, persevere, and move forward without seeing himself as a victim.

Together, Tim and Peter reflect on childhood resilience, emotional armor, faith, and the mentors who shape our path. They explore how great teams are built through culture, trust, honest feedback, and shared values — and why the strongest performers are often those who remain humble enough to keep learning.

This episode is not only about sport or leadership.

It is about resilience, the quiet strength forged through uncertainty, and how early adversity can shape a life dedicated to helping others achieve the extraordinary.

To learn more about Peter’s work in leadership development and high-performance teams through PERFORM2XL, visit www.perform2xl.com.

If this conversation stayed with you, follow Echoes Across Time wherever you listen to podcasts, and join us as we continue exploring what truly lasts.

Listen to more episodes on Mission Matters:
https://missionmatters.com/author/tim-levy/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:09

What will you leave behind when the noise fades and the years passed? I'm Tim Levy, entrepreneur, creator, and founder of Twin, and this is Echoes Across Time. Each week I sit down with extraordinary thinkers, builders, and dreamers to explore the values, stories, and ideas that have asked us. Because legacy isn't built in stone or stored in banks. It's written in who we are and who we help others become. Welcome back to Echoes Across Time. Peter Druitt has spent more than three decades preparing elite teams for the biggest stages in world rugby, contributing to over 350 internationals and 18 World Cups. He led England under-21s to their first ever Six Nations Grand Slam, was director of rugby at Exeter Chiefs during their transition to professionalism, and is widely credited with putting the high-performance culture in place that later powered their premiership success. Through his company, Perform to Excel, Peter now applies those same principles of leadership, alignment, and team culture to sport, business, and education worldwide. He's worked across Hong Kong, Wales, Georgia, Kenya, Namibia, the Netherlands, South Korea, and more, helping nations qualify for World Cups, build elite programs, and transform coaching systems. What defines Peter isn't just experience, it's his obsession with how teams perform under pressure and how the right culture turns potential into results. So welcome, Peter.

SPEAKER_03 2:01

Thank you very much, Tim.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Great to have you on the show. And I'd like to start with talking about your early childhood. What what sort of emotional environment did you grow up in?

SPEAKER_03 2:15

I uh initially grew up in Ghana, uh, West Africa, for the first five years of my life. And it it was a wonderful time, uh, just playing on the beach and having a lot of fun, learning the language, eating lots of different foods, and uh it was wonderful. But then sadly, my mum got got ill uh when I was five, and so my dad stayed in um Ghana, and we came back to back to the UK. That changed things quite a bit, and then actually, in no time, poor mum actually went into hospital, so that meant that those early years things changed considerably. My dad uh had been special forces, but he's working for British Aluminium Company, that's special forces during the Second World War, but he stayed in Africa working for British Aluminium Company, and then mum got very ill, she went into hospital, and so my brother and I ended up in uh it's an incredible family actually, it's a family called the Orkwoods. Um they lived in a council house in Crystal Palace, they only had two bedrooms, uh, they're three of their own children, so the five of us squeezing in. Uh so that made life interesting. Then poor mum passed away when I was seven at that stage. Uh, we sort of in and out of homes really. That obviously had a massive effect, yeah. Um, and then between the ages of 12 and 14, I lived with a family called the Mitchells, lovely people. They had seven kids of their own, six or seven. Yeah, and then between the age of 14 and 18, uh, I lived with another family called the Pinnells. They had four children and they took another lad in and me. I was never adopted, um, but just sort of looked after. Yeah. I suppose so that that means it's a slightly different way of growing up, perhaps.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

For sure. I mean, some interesting themes come out of that. Talk to me a little bit about your brother. Uh, was he older or younger?

SPEAKER_03 4:14

Yeah, no, my brother's older, and he's a character and a half. He uh got kicked out of school when he's 15 and uh had no qualifications. And the other aspect to that, of course, is we had no home because obviously my dad he didn't wash his hands of us, but he sort of got on with his life in Africa, and so uh my brother then joined up, actually, joined the army, worked his way all the way through to become Captain Richard Druitt, and uh was honoured by the Queen with it with an MBE, so he did incredibly well. Um, but he was an older brother, he he was great to me. Uh our our upbringing was full of uh, shall we say, tough old times and getting into fights and things like that. And I used to rely on my brother to sort it out for me.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

Right. It's interesting, you didn't touch too much on your dad, who obviously I guess you didn't see a lot after you returned to the UK. Did he come and visit you over here?

SPEAKER_03 5:18

He didn't really. Let's say I was seven, and then I don't think I saw my dad again until I was twelve, and I and I went out to Ghana to see him. Yeah, I don't think I saw him again till I was a lot a lot older, maybe twenty, twenty-one, something like that. But my dad my dad's story is an interesting one. He he he's the result of my grandmother who was uh a milkmaid on the farm down in Wiltshire, and and in 1918 there were a lot of Australian soldiers in Fovant just down the road, and I think uh one night something happened, and my dad is the result of that. So my dad never knew his dad. Um although my name's Druid, my grandmother's maiden name was Druid, so she was brave enough in 1918 to have my dad, but my dad actually ran away from home when he's 14 to join up, lied about his age, and he was one of that first group of um well, specialist forces group in the in in the Second World War.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:15

So I think in this retrospect, he was most probably a bit messed up from all of that.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

I was gonna say he obviously had an adventurous spirit, and it seems like your brother, your elder brother as well, has that. Um that does seem to be a theme, and maybe he struggled. I'm I'm guessing he struggled having children. Maybe he found them, I don't know, uh, you know, confining or limiting in some way. Uh I do do you remember much?

SPEAKER_03 6:46

Oh, yeah, listen. Um, as I say, he came back when I was 2021, and uh, you know, we developed a relationship over the years then. Um, but it it to be honest, it was a very uh strange relationship. He was never he would never go into detail, never talk about mum. So we just sort of and and and and to be honest, I I had got on with my life, and yeah, so the sadness in a way is perhaps never never to have chatted enough to him and to get down to nitty-gritty, if I'm honest.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:18

But he's a character, I mean he used to, you know, in Africa he would bring the you know the place alive, he everyone was drawn to him, and yeah, he he was very popular with the women, shall we say.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Yeah, what what is interesting, and uh you know, I some of your story resonates with me. I had my first eight years in Jamaica, and my father was also someone that I was very close to when I was little, and then when we left and came to England, he couldn't deal with it and went back to Jamaica. And so for a long time I had very little relationship with him. And I think what's interesting about those of us who have these relationships is it it breeds two things. Firstly, resilience, you know, because you're dealing with something that is tough when you're young. I think that always helps you with coping later on. But secondly, probably a little bit of emotional avoidance, probably, because you never really come to terms with you know, why did all that happen? And maybe to some extent, you know, when you were young, you blame yourself. So it's an interesting theme.

SPEAKER_03 8:34

At the time, I just got on with life, really, and just get on with it. I realized I was on my own and had to get on with it, and it's only in later life that I reflected on it and you know, some things came out.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

Yeah, as they do, and you know, you were seven when mum passed. That's right. Um and you were essentially with your brother, the two of you were on your own at that point, right?

SPEAKER_03 9:02

Yes, my grand, um my dad's mother, uh very poor uh farm labourers, you know, living in a shell of a place which you know had a fire, but there's no modcons or central heating or anything like that. But I didn't have any other grandparents. So my mum had been transported from Germany in 1938 on the kind. Her mother was a German Jewess, and uh her father was a Roman Catholic um musical comedy actor and uh headed up the theatre out in Germany. Her mother was uh killed at Riga concentration camp, and I found that out when I was 18 and I and I tried to find out about stuff.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 9:52

Um so in a sense, yeah, Rich and I were very much left to get on with it. Uh and you know, to be honest, we just did. And and and I don't look back and have any concern about that, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

Yeah, it was fine. Do you know much about your family history on your mum's side beyond the concentration camp? You know, before that.

SPEAKER_03 10:15

Yeah, well again, isn't it interesting, Tim? Now that I'm 67, well, I um and seemingly have time, a bit more time. There's a lot of research I need to do, Tim. Just just so I can put the bits and pieces together for my children, my grandchildren, so they don't forget, as it were.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

Yes, I think it's important and it does give them a sense of who they are and where they have come from, and that's what we like to explore. You know, what shapes who we are? Why do we become the people that we do? Do you do you remember after Mum passed feeling sad? Or do you remember just feeling, well, I've just got to get on with it?

SPEAKER_03 11:02

Yeah, that's a great question. And it's really interesting. When we heard Mum had passed away, I didn't actually cry to him. Um my brother did.

SPEAKER_02 11:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:13

Why I didn't, I've no idea. Maybe I didn't understand uh as much as he did. I think I was most probably over 50 when I had when I shed a ch tear about that. Yeah. Yeah. To be honest.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

So I mean, w what what I think you did was you grew what I call bulletproof armor. You know, you emotionally sort of protects. And I think that is a natural response to essentially what is trauma. Do you have a sense that you know you weren't able to cope with something at that age that you then later learned to be able to deal with?

SPEAKER_03 11:50

Most probably my go-to was make the the best out of a situation and uh have a positive outlook. And um, you know, I think I ended up, you know, living with lots of different families. When I was at school, my mates' families would take me on holiday and whatever. So actually I ended up with I I suppose uh many life experiences where I was seeing different families working together and how they got on, and I think it most probably raised my sense of awareness.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

Yeah, I'm sure that it did. You know, when you think back to that time, what do you think you learned about dealing with other people when you were having to move into different family homes and mix with other children? What what what do you think you absorbed?

SPEAKER_03 12:40

When I left the family at 14 to go to another family, that was a tough one. I I didn't want to leave that family. I can remember the mother in both of those families in different circumstances trying to hug me and I went rigid and I wouldn't allow it to happen. And almost it it was because it was most probably trying not to be soft or loved, or because I'm at the time knew that I was gonna have to fight another battle quite quickly. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

I mean, try trying not to be vulnerable basically, because you knew that you had been vulnerable and you had been let down and disappointed and hurt because of you know, your father not coming back to England with you, your mother unfortunately passing. And so, you know, what do we do? W well, we say, Well, I don't want to feel that way again. So I'm just not gonna get that close to anyone else.

SPEAKER_03 13:48

That's exactly it. And uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

At least you had your brother, right?

SPEAKER_03 13:53

That that was Well, yeah, until I was eleven, so he got kicked out at 15. Um and so from 11 I didn't have my brother.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Even though he wasn't living with you, did you remain close or did you not see each other much?

SPEAKER_03 14:06

We didn't we didn't see each other because he he was battling to make his way, and then he he um obviously in the army he was travelling around the world, so I think at 17 he was in Hong Kong, funny enough, which is uh yeah, somewhere I absolutely love now.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

Not only had your mum and dad gone out of your life, but your brother had gone out of your life as well.

SPEAKER_03 14:28

Yes, but but but again, Tim, I I can't remember thinking seeing that as a problem at the time. I just got on with it. As I s as we got you know, as I was gonna say, fortune I had had the family of sport, and also my teammates, parents, there were some lovely people when I look back now who were so kind to me, you know.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

It tells me a lot about you know how your early life would have shaped you. Talk to me a little bit about faith or spirituality. Has that been a part of your life at all? You know, just just at the most fundamental level, did you ever sort of blame someone in your mind for w what had happened to you for not having a sort of normal family? Did you ever feel resentful about that?

SPEAKER_03 15:12

Well, first up, I I I never looked at it as if it wasn't normal. Right. Right I really didn't. So I didn't blame anyone. No.

SPEAKER_04 15:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:20

That that didn't cross my mind. Yeah. I really just just just got on and on with it. And um, but no, in terms of of of faith, my mother brought us up very well as as Catholics.

SPEAKER_04 15:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:33

Because when she came to England, she went to Virgo Fidelist school, uh just in that sort of Crystal Palace area, which is run by nuns, Catholic nuns. And so that was her that became her faith. So, you know, she made sure we follow that. Now then I actually went to John Fisher School, which is uh a Roman Catholic school.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

Right.

SPEAKER_03 15:54

So um there's a ro there was Catholicism throughout. And I and when I look back at that, uh I think it very much um gave me a conscience, uh helped me to differentiate between good and bad, right and wrong, most probably in a in a nutshell. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Would you call yourself religious now?

SPEAKER_03 16:12

I wouldn't call myself religious now. Um I was then. I um and then you know between the ages of sixteen and eighteen I was quite keen to sort of find out more. And so when I left school uh before coming to university, I worked at a kibbutz in Israel for four months. And uh I followed the path that Jesus had followed and tried Garner Gethsemane and Calvary and you know, uh where he's born and and everything else. Just trying to find out more and to work it all out. And then I realized that the way I was living my life in many ways went against Catholic principles and so I stopped going to church because you're laugh made me laugh at it, because I just felt I wasn't good enough to enter a church.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

Okay. Interesting. What would make you feel that?

SPEAKER_03 17:03

At that time.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:05

Most probably things like uh meeting women at times in my youth, you know, I used to fight a lot.

SPEAKER_04 17:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:15

Yeah, just so my behaviours weren't good enough. And you know, much of my motivation throughout my life has been to try and make my mum proud, and I don't think some of my behaviours were were good enough at that time. But I'm I'm saying that's how I felt at the time. Yeah, yeah. I I would say I'm spiritual, but I I don't go to church now. But having said that, when I go into a church, I will pray.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

You believe in God, basically.

SPEAKER_03 17:44

I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:46

I I believe in uh all the good things that that that faith talks about, about how people should behave.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:57

Whether or not there's a God, I I I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

Yeah, yeah. It is interesting going back to that time and the feeling feelings of guilt that you had, I guess I would describe it as. Is guilt something that comes out of the Catholic faith? I'm not Catholic, so I I I wouldn't know, but um, is that something that you are taught to feel guilty about your behaviour as a Catholic?

SPEAKER_03 18:25

I think when I was young, the sort of little books that you read were all about if you do wrong, you're going to go and get burnt and be with the devil. And so there was a fear element to it. You know, at a very early age, you start going to confession, and I was going to see the priest, bless me, Father, for I've sinned. You know, it's been a week since I've been to confession.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:46

I've been fighting, I've been swearing, I've been stealing, and then I'd have to say three Hail Marys or something like that. So I I think a lot of it it was based around fear in those days. I I don't think it is now.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Right.

unknown 18:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:00

This is the sort of uh early 60s, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Do you remember at that point in time whether you thought your life was difficult?

SPEAKER_03 19:08

In general. I mean there there were times when I had to swap that family or go to you know, that was difficult. It put me in a terrible place. But of on a day-to-day, no, I didn't I didn't feel that.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

And in as you said, there were times when you had difficult things to deal with. Do you remember how you dealt with them?

SPEAKER_03 19:27

As a 14-15-year-old, it's quite interesting. I used to write poetry, play the guitar, write songs, right? And that that was the way I got my emotion out because I maybe wouldn't have wanted to show weakness to uh a mate or a teacher or because I was Pete Druitt, the rugby player, the boxer, the the athlete, the you know. And then I suppose as you as you get older, you mature, hopefully, and and and there are people you can you can chat to about you know good friends or family or partners, wives, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

And did you keep that channel, the poetry and writing, did you keep that going?

SPEAKER_03 20:07

I did in my sort of early twenties. Um and then after that, not really, although you know, more recent times I'll I I've started perhaps uh reflecting a bit and writing one or two things, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

It's interesting, isn't it, that how you know, particularly when you were young, that was a channel for you that you explored, and maybe you'll explore it more again um as you go forward in your life.

SPEAKER_03 20:37

I think that's quite likely.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

Yeah, it's an interesting dimension.

SPEAKER_03 20:42

It's interesting, you know. I even wrote a play at school, you know. I was into that sort of stuff, and uh and most probably, you know, as the years go on now, uh there are things that I will will follow up on.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

Yeah. It's almost like there's another dimension to your personality that you haven't explored fully, or maybe you explored a little bit when you were younger, and now you're sort of uh you know, you feel free to do it again. Yeah. And I think that's great. I think you should. I'd like to talk a little bit about values. So we talked about your childhood, we talked about having to move between different families, um, we talked about loss. When you look back at the time, do you think you had some core values that guided you? Do you feel that you did? I mean, we'll talk about how those changed as you got older, but and and what became important. But when you look back, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:50

No, I I honestly think even though Mum was really I was only with her for five years, because obviously two years in the hospital, we were very lucky she embedded some Real uh values in terms of I think caring about p other people, trying to do the right thing, yeah, trying to be good, yeah. Looking after each other, supporting people. Um most probably those sort of things uh stay with you is perhaps why I uh initially I became a teacher.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Do you think you consciously were aware of resilience as a value?

SPEAKER_03 22:28

I think that's what uh allowed me to to thrive really in what other people may perceive as difficult circumstances. But you know, it was a real get up and go, can do attitude, I suppose, at the time, and uh very competitive, um wanted to do well. As I said, I think you know a lot of that was wanting to make if my mum had been alive, would be proud of me.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

If I can summarize your story to date, it is lost your father, lost your mother, lost your brother, spent time moving from family to family, had no real sort of consistency as you grew up, were on your own, and yet remarkably had an incredibly positive attitude, never felt you were a victim, and were determined to succeed. Now, many people in the world who have similar sorts of stories would have felt like victims. And you didn't. And there's a question you should ask yourself, which is why did you not feel like a victim? Whereas so many others would have in the same circumstances. And I think it's digging into why you didn't feel like a victim and why you actually felt optimistic about your life, I think that's a bit of a gem that you know people would love to hear. Why do you think it was?

SPEAKER_03 24:05

You know, that's been my attitude throughout life, really. It's sort of you know, life life is tough. It's tough for everybody. Yeah you know, through peaks and troughs, and and actually I I've most probably wanted it to be tough. I I like the challenge, I like feeling uncomfortable, yeah, like managing the chaos. I don't know if I like if it likes the right word. I was most probably just lucky to be like that.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Yeah, I I often wonder if it's you're born with it or you learn it.

SPEAKER_03 24:37

Nature nurture, isn't it? Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I I still don't know the answer, by the way. I suspect it's a bit of both.

SPEAKER_03 24:45

Bit of both, I imagine.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

Yeah, I I I think so. As you as you, I mean, you were academically strong, you were quite gifted.

SPEAKER_03 24:55

Ah, as I said, as a youngster, it seemed that way. As I got a little bit older, yeah, shall we say, other things got in the way. So uh um you know, obviously that the the sport was was going really well. I was spending a lot of time in sport, I was very dedicated to it. Um and most probably, you know, I got enough to get by in the end. I I did enough to be able to go to university.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

You you did go to university, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:25

Yeah, well, it's extra university, but actually at the time it was a school of education within X University, which is known as St. Luke's College, which at the time and still is actually famous for um it's rugby and also for developing excellent P teachers who've gone all around the world and done a brilliant job.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

Yeah. Thinking again back to that time and thinking about the relationships that you had, let's say, with other students or maybe with the the teachers there, did you have good relationships? Did you get on well with other people?

SPEAKER_03 25:57

Yeah, I did. And um uh listen, obviously, again, in in those younger years I was in trouble quite a lot, but my P teachers were absolutely brilliant. You know, I Mr. Perry and Mr. Liddyard, you know, to be honest, I I I've run them both in the last year. We sort of kept kept in touch when I was 12 years old at the end of an athletics lesson. I said to Mr. Perry, Sir, I'd really like to be a P teacher when I grow up. Yeah, and that was a hurdles lesson. I always remember it, and he said, Well, look, come back when you're 18 and uh we'll we'll look into it. And that's exactly what happened. And um, you know, so I I owe him a lot, and uh you know, I I rang him and they followed my career as well, and I just thanked him and said none of this would have happened without what what what he did for me.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Did you make friendships that have lasted over the years from those times?

SPEAKER_03 26:51

Yeah, I did. Um and so there were you know three or four mates who who kept pretty close to uh from school. Um having said that when I left London, that was it, because I had no home there. So whereas most people would be going back when they're students to a home, to a family, to friends, that didn't happen so much for for for well it didn't happen for me. But however, no, yes, kept in touch, and the schools kept in touch, and so they invited me back to do a couple of talks, they invited me back to a rugby tournament two years ago.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:32

So yeah, anyway, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

So if I ask you, where are you from, where do you feel you're from, what would you say?

SPEAKER_03 27:42

Well, that's a lovely, lovely question that uh when I was a very small kid, uh and people asked me, I'd say I'm from Takaradi, Ghana. Um and um for from now, um yeah, I I grew up in London and then I've lived in in in uh I've actually been in Devon ever since, although obviously I've been travelling all around the world, but um yeah, so that it show shows you that I I can't say to you straight off, oh this is where I'm from. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Yeah, I I have the same challenge. I mean, sometimes I'll say I'm from Kingston, Jamaica, because that's where I'm I was born and lived the first eight years of my life, and sometimes I'll say I'm a Londoner, but I don't really have just like you an a straight answer to where are you from. We're we're we're nomads in a sense, right?

SPEAKER_03 28:37

Yeah. Well, see, again, this is an interesting one, Tim. On my grand side, there's uh a Romani element, traveller, traveller's element. Right. Um I think I may have picked up that nomadic Yes, yes. Characteristic, but there you go. Anyway, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

Do you think that we're still on the subject of values? Do you think there were any values that you had that didn't serve you well or that you know you couldn't sustain or that conflicted later as life progressed?

SPEAKER_03 29:12

You know, a lot of a lot of values are challenged and they're constantly challenged, um both then and now. Obviously, some values obviously change. Um and obviously in the world I work in, as as in many, many places, you know, that whole culture and that environment and the values are central to, let's say, a team's success. And uh, you know, we we spend a lot of time around that. You know, uh for me, values are our sort of behaviors in action, so it's actually our winning ways, it's yeah, what we do every day. You know, how do we turn up to the environment we're working in? You know, what's our attitude, etc. etc. So, you know, I'm I'm um yeah, that's uh it's been a big part, and you know, there are certain bits that allow for high performance and allow for um well, they make success more inevitable.

SPEAKER_01 30:16

Yep. I mean let's talk about two that I see in some of the most successful people that may not be attributes that everyone thinks are good. Selfishness is and ruthlessness. So a lot of those people who have been very successful have been both selfish and ruthless. And if you were to talk to them, they would say, well, of course I had to be selfish and ruthless. I had to be selfish because I had to focus on myself to achieve what I've achieved, and I had to be ruthless because I had to make sure that I, you know, was better than everyone else, and I sort of got rid of them, they got them out of my way. What do you think of those two character traits?

SPEAKER_03 31:04

In order to play sport and then to coach sport, even though I I wouldn't want to think that about myself, I now realize I I've led quite a selfish life. But equally, um at the same time, within that I've helped a lot of people. But but but but but but I I get that piece. The ruthless piece, I think my natural go-to is to try and be try not to be ruthless. But the reality is in some of the decisions I've had to make, the person on the end of it would have perceived it as ruthless. And if I look at my job as a rugby coach, one of the hardest things is when a very fit young person comes into your room, let's say he's 25, 20, 25, and you've got you and you stop their contract.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:06

And when people ask me what's the hardest part of my job, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Yeah. Do you think in the world of professional sport selfishness and ruthlessness are essential traits?

SPEAKER_03 32:20

They are traits that you will find in in a lot of people to some level.

SPEAKER_02 32:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:26

You know, the very nature of wanting to win all the time means that you have to have certain traits.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:32

However, I work in a team sport where actually being totally selfish doesn't work.

SPEAKER_02 32:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:41

Because actually we work on the other side of that.

SPEAKER_02 32:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

Which is where you actually support each other totally. And I will do whatever I can to help you achieve what you want to achieve.

unknown 32:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:54

Mentality. So it's yeah. And the ruthlessness part of it comes down to most probably being ruthless to people outside of our community, outside of our own little culture and environment.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

I always used to hear an interesting story about Jose Mourinho, the football coach, that he would come in to a new team and he would quickly create a culture where you would feel everyone outside of your world was kind of attacking you. They were all the enemy. Yeah. And he would be able to bind his team together by seeing everyone else as the enemy. And that sort of mindset created, and if you look at his career, the teams he managed performed very well early on in his tenure. But then after a period of time, that started to break down.

SPEAKER_03 33:53

Yeah, and only last so long.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:55

Because if you're successful, you're no longer the underdog, you're no longer the right.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:02

But you've got to, you know, there are lots of different ways of, as well as you know, of finding that energy.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

Yeah, that takes us on nicely to the question of ego and humility. Obviously, you know, in the world of professional sport, you're dealing with super fit uh individuals, you know, often the fittest in the world. You're dealing with people who many of them are very confident, but maybe some of them are are not. What has life taught you about ego and humility?

SPEAKER_03 34:35

In terms of on a personal level, um there's an element of ego that pushes you when you're young to achieve what you need to achieve. I think for me, because of my background, I've always had uh I'd like to think a uh humility, you know, being sort of humble about it. And if if I reflect on things, that maybe I've had imposter syndrome, right? And that that may relate to not have having had somebody as a parent figure telling me I was good or whatever when I was young, I don't know. So that's just on a personal level, in terms of the people I I man uh I work with, then you know you you've got everything on the spectrum, uh actually. Yeah, and it goes back to one's ability to have awareness of others, and I think for me, because of so many changes in my environment and life, um I'm most probably a a reasonably well a reasonably good sort of sixth sense on that sort of stuff, I think.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

I always used to hear that I mean one of the most successful sports managers of all time was Alex Ferguson at Manchester United. And I always used to hear that you know, one of his secret sources was he didn't allow ego in the uh you know, in the dressing room. Yeah, he was the boss, and everyone else, you know, he didn't he didn't accept prima donnas. I mean, you'll remember all the stories of him having difficulty with Beckham, for example. Is there a style that you have in terms of managing ego?

SPEAKER_03 36:18

I think it's natural that that there's going to be an element of what whatever you know, ego doesn't have to be a bad thing, it can be a very positive thing that a enables people to become number one at what they do. However, what is interesting is a lot of the best players I've worked with, you would find are the most humble people you you'd ever meet. Yeah. Because they don't talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:45

Interestingly.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

Do you think that humility is natural, or do you think it comes from the way you are as a manager?

SPEAKER_03 36:56

I think it's most probably because we create an environment that encourages it.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

Right.

SPEAKER_03 37:01

And that that often helps somebody to have longevity, um, not just as a sports person, but also in their life when they move on.

unknown 37:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:12

And have to try and because you know the life of a of a of a rugby player could could just could be ten years, it could be less. Um there's gotta be another 30 odd years where they've got to enjoy life, contribute, etc. etc.

SPEAKER_01 37:27

Yeah, and it's a big shock, I know, for for many of them when they leave professional sport.

SPEAKER_03 37:31

Yes, it is, because it's a little bit like the military who provide a sort of eight o'clock in the morning to six o'clock in the morning program, and we do that in rugby, you know, and one of the things we had to do was help players to prepare for life after rugby, and I think we're better at that now. You know, I used to give players uh a Wednesday afternoon off or whatever, where they could go and work with a local business or something that they were hoping that they were going to go into, and it may be the business that was sponsoring them at the time, or whatever it happens to be, um, because we're increasingly finding that rugby players finish, and a lot of them have have some sort of difficulties getting into normal life.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

You said that you yourself have suffered sometimes from having imposter syndrome. Yes. Does that mean that you haven't really ever felt that you're a sort of egotistical person? You're not someone who's had sort of problems managing your own ego.

SPEAKER_03 38:34

You know, it's amazing. I I finished playing uh rugby at a level in in 1992, in the April, and I was a physical education and sports science lecturer at X University at the time, and I got this job with England Rugby in the September. I was 33, 34 years old, and I walked into the room, my first meeting, with eight people who were running England rugby and me, and they were all at least 10 years plus older than me. And I just kept my mouth shut the whole two hours until the boss Don Rutherford asked me a question and I could hardly speak. And so I was so lucky to have these incredible people around me, and it meant I learnt fast, but again, it keeps you humble. If you go in there and you think you're, you know, a bit special, you soon realize you're not.

SPEAKER_01 39:33

It's kept you grounded always to have other high performers and important people around you. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_03 39:42

I think I've been very lucky to be surrounded by those people who have been willing to help me improve and get better. And because of those incredible mentors, yeah, that's what I've been continuing and I'm doing that every day now, mentoring other people, a lot of it voluntary, uh because it matters.

SPEAKER_01 40:03

We haven't touched on the subject I know which is dearest to your heart, which is you know, how do you get performance from teams? How do you get people to perform at the highest level over and over again? How do you build high-performing teams? What is the secret? Is there a secret, or is it just many things?

SPEAKER_03 40:26

You know, rugby's a business and and it is a sport, so there's a combination of things that are required. But if you look at successful military people, successful people in education, successful people and sport or teams, it it's what we talked about earlier, which is the culture and the values and the environment that you create. And there are ways of doing that, and it's the way you manage people, it's the way you I I also think it's it a lot of it just comes down to recruitment. How good are you at selecting staff to support everybody and the players? Yeah, and that that that that's a big piece, and also for me it was always important to get staff that are better than uh than me in certain areas in in the world of sport, that's inevitable. You know, you are not going to be the expert in everything, yeah. And uh you need to realise that quite early on. And uh again, when I left England rugby after 15, 16 years, whatever it was, I went back to my old club, Exeter Chiefs. And I'd played for Exeter from 82 to whenever. And um the very first session we had, I took the lads to the Marines camp at Limston. Yeah, and so the players didn't really know me, I didn't really know them. And uh but so it's pre-season and we worked with the Marines at Limston, and what was really fascinating was having chats with the guys who were taking us, and by the way, staff we all joined in, and asking them who would you go to war with? What do you see in this group of players? What values do you see? What are we showing you? Because we everybody can talk about it, you can write about it, but actually it's our actions, our behaviours, and to be fair, um that was an excellent opportunity, and and we kept on doing that for three years, three years rather, and in fact they still do it now, but uh I I don't know if I'm answering your question, Tim.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

Actually, yeah, you you you you are. I mean, I'm I'm interested in uh you know a couple of things. I'm interested in communication. How important is it to be open in your communication? And by that I mean there'll be times where you know a player perhaps hasn't played as well as they should be or hasn't trained as hard as you think they should be. Is it important always to be honest and direct? Is it you know you need to tell them that they're meeting or exceeding or not meeting expectations? Is communication key to getting performance from individuals?

SPEAKER_03 43:15

It's often very important when you have a direct discussion that it's one-on-one. From my experience, the player at the time always wants to play, let's say, or always wants to be seen to be doing well, but if they can see you're actually helping them improve, yeah, and if they can see that you're being as truthful, as honest with them as possible, at the time they will find it difficult. Later on, they look back and say, and thank you for actually saying it as it is.

SPEAKER_01 43:50

It's interesting that there are obviously different styles of players. So I I was a big cricket fan, and you know, a good example would have been David Gower and Graham. M. Gooch. Yes. And you know, Gower was a beautiful, natural player who, you know, batting looked effortless for. And Gooch was renowned for his work ethic and his training and doing hours in the nets, which Gower apparently hated. And the England management at the time, I mean, you might remember Gower and Gooch fell out, and Gooch was the captain, so Gower was excluded from the team and you know ended up retiring from international cricket. And to me, it was a great example of I think it was Illingworth who was maybe the manager at the time. But it was a great example of having uh a single approach to your players that just didn't cater for the differences between different individuals.

SPEAKER_03 44:52

One thing I do uh with any team, with an international team or whatever, when we all meet for the first time, is we develop a let's call it a code of conduct, yeah. Principles by how we're going to work. And it doesn't come directly from me, it comes from their discussions, yeah, uh, and what we get, and then of course I take it all away, and then I write what I wanted to write anyway, but no, and uh and and uh um so that that's a bit of a starting point. Um and and it's sort of I think if you just tell it's not gonna happen. Yeah, they've got to feel part of the process, empowered, and and the better you get at it, um and the the use of feedback is massive, and you've got to uh uh uh and I know you all do that after a game on a Saturday, obviously a lot of analysis is done on a Monday morning, you have individual analysis, unit analysis, team analysis, uh meetings, uh etc. And and it just develops this constant flow of information, and also you're forever talking to each other. You talk over a coffee, you you're coaching, you're and the family gets incredibly strong. And if you have your vision, then you understand your mission. That's how you drive it.

SPEAKER_01 46:17

So it it's interesting, all of the things that you're saying are based on people spending time together, communication, people learning from each other. These are things that require physical togetherness. Yep. And obviously, one of the big questions in the world at the moment is this remote working, which really sort of exploded with COVID.

SPEAKER_04 46:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 46:44

And there's still a big debate in the world today. Can you build high-performing teams that work remotely? And there's a lot of people who say, absolutely, yes, you can, and it's essential that you give people that flexibility, and that there are people on the other side who say, no, absolutely you can't, and you have to have people working together so that they can interact together. Do you have a view on that?

SPEAKER_03 47:10

I think that face-to-face is inevitable, isn't it? Because of the nature of the work that you're doing. So in the business world, I could see why potentially working through Zoom meetings, working through other bits and pieces could could could work. But the bit you miss out is that knowing each other. And when you really know each other, you can talk openly and give really helpful feedback, which helps you to grow. And I'm not sure that works as well if you're a bit like you and I are now, sort of looking into a screen.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:50

It's a very interesting question because there are many things you lose when you are not in person. You know, talk to me about vision when you know, as a high performance coach, is the role of vision to speak something that is clearly realistic, or can we speak to something that is just insanely optimistic? You know what was your approach? What is your approach?

SPEAKER_03 48:21

I won't say insanely optimistic, but I think optimistic is good. Um, because what we're often trying to do is um, you know, something extraordinary, shock the world. Um so you have to be able to back it up with your processes, your systems, the way we're going to behave, how we're gonna do things, the standards we're going to set.

SPEAKER_02 48:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:45

Along the way, you will set goals and you will achieve those goals, but actually, it's all part of that climbing the mountain. But if all of us fully understand the reason we're in the room and why we want to win the league or get promotion or win the Six Nations, yeah, and we all get it, and then we know that every single thing we do is aiming to do that. Yeah, then it helps our communication, it can be more uh open, forthright, demanding of each other.

SPEAKER_01 49:25

It's kind of like the Everest expedition, right? You have a team of 20, you know only whatever, four or five are gonna get to the top. But all 20 have to believe that they are essential to all 20 getting to the top, even though not everyone's gonna get to the top.

SPEAKER_03 49:42

Yeah, so you know, for example, in some squads, you know, you're you're gonna have 30 players, 40 players. Um in my sport, maybe only 23 will will play on a Saturday, so it's a constant as as you say. But everyone has to feel their part of it.

SPEAKER_01 49:58

Is there a story that you can remember in your life that sort of gives us a flavour of who you are?

SPEAKER_03 50:04

You know, we talked about my mother a lot earlier, and and you know, the loss of mum. Um I also and how I dealt with that, and then I got divorced in the middle nineties, and we we we sort of touched on it a little bit, and I when when I reflect on that, it was typical being selfish, totally consumed by my work, absolutely consumed, you know, 24 hours a day and more again it's rugby. Um big lesson that it took me a long time to realise that other things were more important. I had three children at the time, um, so then your relationship with your children changes. Um the next big thing in my life that made me really question what I was doing and made made me reflect a lot. Um but I most probably have had trouble balancing my wanting to be the best and do as well as I can in work and managing to be as good with my family as I should be.

SPEAKER_01 51:17

It's the endless search, right? You mentioned that you don't think you cried until you were fifty, was it?

SPEAKER_03 51:25

Yeah, over fifty I would say. Yeah, about mum, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

And that was crying about mum, was it? That was you, yeah. Finally sort of coming to terms with that sense of loss that you'd always sort of hidden away.

SPEAKER_03 51:41

Yeah, maybe that, maybe that. But I'll tell I'll tell you what, the family laugh at me now because we could be watching telly and uh I'll be I'll be I'll be you know I'll start crying. They go, Oh dad's crying again, you know.

SPEAKER_01 51:54

Yeah, it's often said that the people who cry a lot when they watch films or whatever are people who perhaps repress their emotions more. And it's only when they're sort of relaxed and letting go and they've sort of you know taken off the armor plating that uh you know, when they go out the when they go out into the world to do their job or whatever on a normal day, they strap on the armour plating to make themselves emotionally resilient, and then they take it off when they're relaxed at home.

SPEAKER_04 52:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:28

But it is interesting in in my sporting life, you know, there have been times where you know I've been more than happy to show emotion to the players in terms of the joy or the sadness, or funny enough, um yeah. And and I w when I look at it, it it's funny how that family is there's there's a set of behaviours in there, and it's interesting what you then what are your behaviours when you're with your loved ones, you know, the close family that's uh qu question for you, just thinking about that, if you think to the you know, the best players that you have coached or maybe played with.

SPEAKER_01 53:15

By which I mean the ones who were the most successful. Was there something that they shared in common with each other? I mean, was there something that what was it that made them special?

SPEAKER_03 53:30

I think they all demand feedback because they want to improve and get better. Yeah and they're able to deal with a little bit like we're talking about earlier, that that straight feedback because I need it, because I need to get better. And I think that that stood out, and I you know when I look back at because we always write reports and stuff like that about about players, etcetera, etc.

SPEAKER_04 53:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:54

And I I I think also it is resilience and to actually go the extra mile to put that those one percent and uh dedication. Total dedication.

SPEAKER_01 54:07

You have children. Do you have grandchildren as well?

SPEAKER_03 54:10

Yeah, uh four children. Um eldest be forty-two in April, and the youngest is twenty-three, and then grandchildren, nine, soon to be ten, six, four, and then Meg, my daughter, is going to have a baby beginning of March, another one, so congratulations.

SPEAKER_01 54:31

Yeah, yeah. And two marriages?

SPEAKER_04 54:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 54:35

Right. So three children with your first wife and one with your second. Yeah. And what has having children and our grandchildren done to changing your perspective on life?

SPEAKER_03 54:49

You know, the truth is the f the first time round, I got divorced when the kids were twelve, ten, and six, and it was one of the most difficult days of my life, uh, when we sat around a table and explained what was happening. Yeah. Um and I think maintaining that relationship and the closeness uh was difficult at the time. I think having grandchildren uh makes you really realise how short your life is. And you just look and you just think, oh you want the world to be a good place and you want them to be happy and you want them to be able to um achieve things and uh enjoy their lives, really. Um but it's it's lovely having grandchildren actually.

SPEAKER_01 55:35

What do you hope that your children and grandchildren will remember most about you?

SPEAKER_03 55:42

I I think they'll most probably see that Crikey Dad worked hard. And not necessarily think that's a good thing, but but also hopefully see my love of um having fun and uh having good friends and uh enjoying life as well.

SPEAKER_01 56:00

When you talk to them about you know what makes a successful life, what do you say to them?

SPEAKER_03 56:07

Yeah, well I'm useless at uh telling uh not telling, but speaking to my own children about it. I'm okay with sports people. Because they look at me and go, yeah, alright, Dad. Yeah, yeah. And so um I'm much good at that, but I would have to ask them that one. I obviously like all parents, I You do try and advise, don't you? You try and support and you talk about those bits and pieces, and um but equally, because of my upbringing, I had freedom of choice.

SPEAKER_02 56:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:38

So I actually chose what I was going to do all the time. Didn't have anyone telling me how to do this, how to do that. And maybe as a result, I'm very it's not liberal, but very uh respectful of them making their own decisions.

SPEAKER_01 56:53

I think you're a remarkably resilient individual who has coped incredibly with all sorts of challenges, and I can see why you would make an exceptional coach and help get the most out of people. I can really see that. And I think you have a lot of empathy, which I see in everyone who I think is a great leader. The ability to sort of understand the differences between the people they're leading and how to help them get more out of themselves. I usually like to end with a few rapid fire questions. So you can give me one-word answers or short answers, it doesn't matter. What's one thing on your bucket list you still plan to do?

SPEAKER_03 57:37

Well, funny enough, I should have done it in November. Um, I was asked to I'll do uh well, it's a charity thing, but the Penguins um is yeah, it's it's a rugby group, and I was going to travel to India and work with the street kids, and I couldn't go in the end. So I definitely want to do that. I love that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 57:59

Yes, great. Yeah, which book or movie has had a major impact on on you?

SPEAKER_03 58:04

There's a book called Mind Games, and uh 26 years ago or more, uh I or 20 years at least, I started doing some work uh associated with rugby, which talks about redhead, bluehead, mental skills, uh training. Um so I've always been fascinated by it's like what we've been chatting about today, really. How do people manage under pressure? And in fact, not just manage, how do they succeed when under pressure? So uh I I'm really love all that.

SPEAKER_01 58:37

Yeah. Uh which everyday activity brings you the most joy?

SPEAKER_03 58:42

Exercise and eating.

SPEAKER_01 58:45

Share that. Uh who's a personal hero of yours or someone who has inspired you?

SPEAKER_03 58:52

Well, do you know it's funny? I started boxing when I was about eight years old or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 58:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:59

And at the time, Mohammed Ali was big in boxing, as you know. Um, so that was my early hero.

SPEAKER_02 59:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 59:07

And and then in later life, I've been very lucky to have some fantastic mentors as coaches. A guy called Chalky White who coached Leicester when he was so successful. Fantastic, because I he was a colleague, but I just had the utmost respect for him. I sort of almost bowed in his presence, and that was brilliant. And then sadly, uh, another great mentor of mine uh who coached Wales, Kevin Bowering, who also worked with uh England rugby, and he taught me so much, and I I owe him a lot. And so those are two other heroes.

SPEAKER_01 59:40

Fantastic. And in one word, how would you describe this stage of your life?

SPEAKER_03 59:45

I think it's uh an opportunity to reflect, but to have some fantastic, enjoyable life experiences and just go and get it whilst I can.

SPEAKER_01 59:57

Thanks, Peter. Really enjoyed the time with you. Could have spent you know many more hours talking and uh yeah, been great to find out more about your life and what an extraordinary individual you are. So thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:10

Well, thank you very much, Tim, and lovely lovely to chat, really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:14

Thank you for listening to Echoes Across Time. If this conversation made you pause, reflect, post the legacy in a new way, share it with someone you'd want to remember you by. You can follow the journey and join our community wherever you listen to your podcast. I'm Tim Levy, reminding you your story is already part of someone else's legacy.