Episode 5: How Worth-Conscious Therapy Transforms Healing and Self Worth with Dawna Daigneault EdS LPC, CCPT

We explore worth-conscious therapy with  Dawna Daigneault and map how clinicians can replace conditional approval with a stable foundation of inherent self-worth. Practical tools, visuals, and safety steps help clients move from perfectionism and anxiety to grounded, congruent living.

• defining worth consciousness and why awareness alone is not enough
• pillars of self-worth versus imitation pillars built on conditions
• counterfeits such as achievement and image that fail to increase worth
• applying worth-based building blocks to real-life goals and identity choices
• shifting perfectionism toward worth-centered action and mindfulness
• assessing disruption and sequencing trauma safety before worth work
• guiding the lost worth story with attunement, dignity and pacing
• clinician self-worth, language choices and boundary-sensitive planning
• resources for deeper learning, articles, diagrams and community

For clients to be sure to buy the book
We also started a Facebook group for mental health professionals called Understanding Self-Worth
If a clinician would like to be able to read that, it’s available there: https://understandingself-worth.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Hi, welcome to the Therapist Lounge. I'm your host, Sabrina Dong, licensed clinical social worker. Today I have with me here Donna Dano, who is a licensed professional counselor. She has dedicated her work and expertise towards understanding about self-worth. And she's here to share about her publications and how incorporating worth conscious theory and understanding about the pillars of self-worth can help clients in your clinical practice day-to-day, regardless of their issues or symptoms. And thanks so much for joining me today, Donna. If you'd like to share more about yourself.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Thank you. So yeah, I'm a licensed professional counselor. I've been in private practice for a little over 20 years. I developed Worth Conscious Siri. Probably took me a little over 10 years to look into self-worth and uh how it was relevant in the healing process, what was already written about it, and then what seemed to be missing as I was working with my clients. I can't remember the exact year. It was either 2020 or 2021. I sent the materials to my co-author and I said, Hey, will you take a look at this? Kind of almost like check my math. So my co-author is an emeritus status professor from University of Missouri, Kansas City. And I just had a lot of respect for her skill set, her understanding of academic research. And when she looked over the materials, she said, Donna, we've got to do something with this. So that was exciting.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

And so glad you did because just so many clients come in to understand about like, how do I know about myself, my self-identity, self-worth? And we talked about the confusion between self-esteem, self-worth, self-confidence. It all kind of gets in master, you know, you use each term interchangeably. And I think it's so helpful to understand how to integrate your model and concept to help people learn that it's a foundation you can build. This is something you're born with. Just so exciting to hear about these pillars and understanding about acceptance. So yeah, if you're wanting to touch about the worst conscious theory for other clinicians to understand and you may want to learn more to buy your book and to integrate this model.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

Oh, yeah. You um, so you do you want me to kind of give the basis of worse conscious theory?

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Uh so what I was hearing a lot about a common term self-consciousness. I hear about it every week from somebody, sometimes several times a day, depending on which clients are coming through. And as I was um using different modalities to help someone feel less self-conscious, I realized that the only thing I could offer them was like, here's self-conscious. So it'd be like, not so not that. And that wasn't very motivating for people. Just like, okay, let's just not be that. And so I was like, well, is there something over here like that's like the opposite of that? Like, what would that be? And that was like the rumblings of worth consciousness. I didn't have the name right away, but it was like, if you don't want to be self-conscious and neutral isn't, it's just not as uh attractive as feeling worthy. And then it was like, why don't we talk about worth more often? It almost felt like an esoteric concept to the therapeutic process. And then I was really curious about how worth affected wellness.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

Right. So how self-worth affects how their overall being, how well they are, their health.

Pillars Vs Imitation Pillars

SPEAKER_01 5:53

Yes. Yeah. So worth consciousness, it to be conscious of worth, it's it's not just awareness. Consciousness is a an ability to be aware and pull what you're aware of into your sense of self and make it useful. So there is an element of um mental emotional capability to being conscious where you're you're moving some things around purposefully. And so when we're worth conscious, what we're doing is putting our worth as a person central in our sense of self, that as we're learning to be true to ourselves, we also get to remain worthy through that process. Right.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

So I was wondering if you can touch on the pillars of self-worth, just to understand better what self-worth is, and we're talking to clinicians about that and applying it.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Let me show you the yeah. So we've got two different representations. So if everything goes really well, which by the way, it never looks as perfect, but if if it could be the family of origin would make every member aware of their birthright self-worth and would honor it, therefore modeling for them how to have awareness of that self-worth, how to respect that self-worth, their esteem can be based in that self-worth, and then they have confidence in that self-worth. And with practice and building these pillars, the individual ends up with realized self-worth for a lifetime. But when this goes wrong, we end up with imitation pillars and that self-that birthright self-worth can be down here, but these conditions are put on top of it. And that's what things get built on. So when we look at different clients, we're listening for what conditions were required, like what requirements were in their family that they're aware of what they have to do. They only respect what they're told to do. Their esteem comes from doing that thing well, and then they have confidence in the conditions that they're expected to pursue. And uh all of these pillars are in service of some kind of counterfeit in the system. And the counterfeit is to realize self-worth. So you you don't end up with realized self-worth, but you could end up with a promotion. You could end up with a talent or being the most talented person. You could end up being skilled in a certain way or achieve at a certain level. And the interesting thing about those types of counterfeits is they're desirable, but they don't make you feel more worthy.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Yeah. So it can make you feel desirable. It could help in the short term feeling good, but in the long term does not help with your self-worth. Just like we learned over the years with Kristen Neff's work, like self-esteem is not built by, I'm gonna go learn a new skill. I remember, you know, in the early 2000s, helping teens and the workbooks are all about, you know, self-esteem and skills and remote feelings, and it just it didn't really do much. And now we have a better understanding. And with your model, especially, I think is so helpful in working with adults, but working with teens and kids around this as well, too, would be so important. That information you learn in in school, and I don't know if it's always modeled at home sometimes either. I think maybe this is a good segue into the imitation pillars and mentioning like conditional worth of acceptance, counterfeit, real life self-worth. So, how would this be helpful, I guess, in in working with clients and in the therapy session to have these conversations?

SPEAKER_01 9:38

One of the helpful or useful parts of the model is that when a client is feeling confounded, and I'll say something like, you're working really hard and you know, you're not happier. And they're like, Yes, like I'm working so hard and I don't feel more valued, more joyful. I just feel more confused. And when I'll show them the imitation pillars and I'll say, we're building all the time, and we're building with the blocks that were available in our family system. And it's highly likely that most family systems don't have every block every kid needs. I have yet to see that be the case. So family systems are sharing the blocks they have available. Their kids might get some different ones from friends, from school, from community organizations. I know I got some from Fred Rogers as a child. I got some building blocks from him, and I'm grateful for those. And so then I'll talk about all the building blocks they need are available in the world. Every building block we need is available. It's figuring out which one to start using and then the practice of using these new building blocks that make the difference. Now, this can be specifically to building on self-worth as a foundation, but it can also be pulling worth-based building blocks into other goals someone's pursuing. So if their family taught them to pursue, trying to think of a good example without sharing client information. Um, let's just say academic success. Let's say everybody in the family was an academic and they expected the kids to grow up and get a PhD. And so they would sit around and share a wealth of wisdom with each other over meals, and it was enriching and it was connected, and there was good attachment around this. And then one kid comes along and wants to be a musician and loves music and doesn't want to get a music degree, just wants to start a band. And that this is just so outside of what's familiar in the system, it can look like rebellion, it can look like ignorance, um, and it can be labeled with unfair judgments from people that this person is attached to and who loves them. Right. But then all of a sudden, this condition comes into play. So there's love, but when the person wants to be uniquely themselves, then the conditions can show up. And that's not what we do in this family, or no, no, no, get a degree and then start a band, or get a degree and do your band on the side. So there can be all these ideas around what made this person happy, like a parent or both parents could say, Oh, this made us so happy. And then this little musician in the family could be like, I don't think I can build the pillars you guys have been building and be happy. I wonder if I could pull a self-worth block over and have awareness of music and respect for music and esteem from my music and become confident in myself doing music. And it won't look the same as your pillars, but what if it's uh still still a worth-based pursuit? That person's truth and their worth could be congruent in that space. So when we make it, I sp I especially think the visuals are important.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Yes, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

When we're honoring self-worth, we can pull building blocks from these pillars that are worth-based and pull them over to other pursuits in life, and they're imbued with worth for that person. And the irony is the parents wouldn't feel as worthy doing what that kid's doing. So they don't get the worth messaging in that that the kiddo has and that they're experiencing. That's where we get a lot of disconnects because what feels worthy, I mean, truly worthy to some people, doesn't even register with other people. It doesn't make it not good.

Applying The Model In Sessions

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Right. Yeah. It's just different. I was thinking of um when you're talking about these examples and self-worth, maybe with um clients who have obsessive-compulsive disorder. A lot of times they're narratives around not feeling good enough or self-worth. Do you think your model would be helpful to provide psychoeducation, maybe around self-worth? And, you know, when it comes to challenging some of the intrusive thoughts, for example.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

The only thing I can speak to with that is more along the lines of perfectionism. So it's in the zone. Um because I have clients that are struggling with perfectionistic uh pursuits. And uh this absolutely is helpful for them to just pause and say, is this worth-based? Because when it's achievement-based or perfection-based, it causes a lot of anxiety. But when we shift to, is this worth-based or what would it be, what would being worth-based look like? How would it look different if we were conceiving of this from when you feel worthy? Let's pull that forward. And I I have had to help some of my more perfectionistic clients get into that space of feeling their own worth repeatedly, like every session for multiple sessions, for I'm thinking of one individual for over a year, every session. And sometimes this person would walk into the office and say, Can you help me remember my worth right now? Like, can you help me get regrounded in my worth? I'm like, all right, you know, so we have a mindfulness activity in the book that is worth-centered. It's a worth-centric mindfulness activity that can be helpful to clients.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Oh, that's great.

unknown 15:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Yeah. So can you explain more about your book and if clinicians are interested in how worksheets can help clients? So there's descriptions of the pillars in there, those great diagrams, any other examples of worksheets or exercises?

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Chapter eight is the whole perspective shift process, which is taking a client from beginning through to being able to affirm their own worth. Um, and we we take the reader step by step through how to apply different aspects of worth conscious theory. Chapter four has all of the different tenets of the therapy right at the beginning of the chapter. So it's a it's a good little short definitions of each concept. So it's a quick reference, is what it is. We do talk about level of disruption in the client and how to assess for that so that you know when to transition to more trauma support before you continue doing the worth conscious piece. And you and I had talked about that before, that there is some trauma that needs to be attended to before continuing to do work about self-worth.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

I I know we talked about before in another, you know, podcast episode and a side about um being versus becoming. So do you have information in your chapters on that as well and helping clients understand that difference?

Perfectionism And Worth-Based Shifts

SPEAKER_01 17:12

And yeah, um, it's it's more specific in chapter eight, um, the perspective shift technique. And one of the things we show is that you can carve out this little space of being. And so this goes along with mindfulness. It also speaks to two distinctly different requirements that can show up for clients. There are three circles there, but one circle represents becoming good in the system or becoming better in the system, but it's usually conditional worth that you're getting better at. And the other one is kind of the worst outcome, which is failing, failing in the system over and over. And so what I've seen in clients is that sometimes they bounce between those two realities. I accept it if I allow this conditional worth to kind of name my value, doesn't make me feel like I have self-worth, but I have conditional worth in the system. But if I don't become better at following the system, I fail even at attachment. I fail at attaching in my own family system. I fail at making the people in my family system proud of me. And so they drop into this worst space. So it's like worst and best. And when those are your only two options, that's a lot of misery. So we carve out this little space called being to help a client get in touch with just being. What if you're not the worst version? What if you're not striving for the best version all the time? What if you can pull out of both of those options and just sit and be for a moment? And that's what mindfulness is all about.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

Great. I know you also talked about the importance in self-worth as a clinician to solidify in order to help others. And I was wondering if you could touch more on that. What happens if you're a clinician and you're working through your own self-worth goals and you're trying to help someone? Like, why is it important, do you think, to have that foundation also?

SPEAKER_01 19:20

My favorite thing to say about this is that you do have it. Every clinician has self-worth. If they grew up in a system that didn't honor that self-worth, they might believe that having it denied is more true than actually having it. And that's unfortunate. I think clients that are struggling with self-worth issues, like they want, if they want to believe theirs is real, they want you to believe yours is real too. They may not know that right off the bat, but there's something solid about having self-worth and trusting it and having self-worth that's congruent with your personal truth that I think gets felt in the room. I also believe that when I honor my worth as a person, I am more likely to yours.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

Right. So you're more likely to honor the client, maybe be there as a witness a bit more to their experience. And we talked about languaging as well, too, before, like, you know, maybe saying, like, oh well, you you know, whatever it is, like you're good enough, you're worthy. Don't blame yourself. Like maybe saying things like that as a clinician and not maybe being as attuned. And perhaps if we are being aware of the work for ourselves, for clients with your training, we'd have more of understanding on maybe sitting with the process, pausing more, and helping to work our foundation.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

Yeah, we we have some little breakout excerpts in the at towards the end of the book. So I think it's at the back of chapter eight, where we talk specifically about certain building blocks missing, like self-respect. And this one individual, the therapist is working with them to embody their self-respect, use it in communication with others, set healthy boundaries. And then the clinician becomes aware of how afraid this person is of using any of these building blocks with their own dad, because that is against the rules. You don't have a conversation with dad and set boundaries. Yeah, and but it's self-respecting. And so we we talk through how do we then respect the client, their reality. They have these building blocks, they want to use them, but it's not always safe for them to honor their worth with certain people. We don't want to set them up to fail. We don't want to set them up to be abused.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

That's hard.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

So, how do we talk through that in session and yet still use those self respect building blocks in every session? Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:59

I've worked Points around okay, where do you feel safe and comfortable to use this? Yeah, that's perfect. Is there anything else around the series? Oh, yes, the lost word story. If you could talk about and explain about that frame of reference within your theory in the workbook.

Techniques, Tenets, And Safety

SPEAKER_01 22:16

That is the name of a phenomenon that we coined the term for the book because it's something that shows up in in more than one client. You start hearing them talk about memories of feeling worthless, feeling unworthy. And but what comes with it isn't just the words, it's this emotional weight, this mental fear that it's true. And I realize when when that starts to surface, first of all, the person's feeling safe enough to share the thing that they're most afraid of. They're so afraid that they don't have worth as a person. Um and I appreciate that they feel safe. So honoring their safety becomes the top priority. Following them into that story and not flinching. Clients know when a therapist is uncomfortable, it's not a good thing, right? And so trusting that you can follow them into that space and that no matter what they're about to share, you can stay in that space with them. Because their story has to be worthy too. It's ironic that a lost worst story is worthy of being told. And yet that's one of the biggest turnarounds that someone will sit with them and stay with them through telling the worst story most of them have to tell.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

Right. And how hard that is to share that story.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

It's usually humiliating, which is why they avoid telling it. And I I also find that there's oftentimes a fear that to tell a humiliating story will be more humiliating. And so as clinicians, we make sure that the right amount of safety is in place. Safety meaning that they their worth is affirmed all along the way. We stay aware of them, we respect the process, we even esteem them for being brave enough to get into this space.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

Right. Yeah, and just how vulnerable that can be. So if a clinician would like to know more about your theories, where could they start to learn more? Is there articles first? Is there books, workshops?

SPEAKER_01 24:29

The first article um is from Sage Publications and it's the Sage Journal of Theory and Psychology. Um, we actually have a free copy of that. I think if you go to Sage, it's$30, like around$30. Um because we put it behind a privacy wall on the website. If a clinician would like to be able to read that, um, it's available there. And that's understandingselfworth.com. And we've been adding materials to the private pages, and we're going to continue to do that over the next few years. We're developing more materials. The conscious moment technique that we've got a short version of that that's available there, a PDF that you can get on those private pages. We also started, I think sometime last year, we started a Facebook group for mental health professionals called Understanding Self-Worth.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

Wow, that's great. So clinicians can sort of share ideas or information and and using the website. We'd love for that.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

Yeah. We'd love for you to go use some of the concepts and then come back and tell us this is how it worked. You know, this is I loved this. Oh, can we add that? Like, yeah, we're we're open to learning from people that are using the model.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

Definitely. I I certainly see such value in working with people of all ages, backgrounds. So to have a community to share information, that's exciting.

Being Versus Becoming

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Yeah. That's what I love about this particular concept is that when it comes to human worth, I I can't think of anybody I would leave out. And so I really do hope it helps the wellness of whomever it's used with.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

Yes. I mean, is there any I know you talk about for everyone, like any client you wouldn't use this model for? You mentioned kind of trauma work would need to be done first. Yes, but just in thinking of, you know, within scope of practice and do no harm.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

Yeah. Well, uh, there are clients who don't need it. So I have clients that they come in and they have a chemical-based depression, and we assess it and I get them to ask certain questions with their their doctor or their psychiatrist. And when they are able to adjust that chemistry, sometimes they come in just for maintenance for a little while. Um, I have clients that know their self-worth and have a problem with a boss, and they just want to work through some strategies for having more constructive conversations with that person. So, yeah, not every client has a self-worth issue. Um, yeah, so not everybody needs it.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Um, is there any sort of measurement tools in looking at progress or involving self-worth or tracking?

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Great question. Not yet. So, where we're at right now is the one measurement we have is that level of disruption. I think that's in chapter five. And what we talk about there is you're assessing for the degree to which trauma has kind of taken hold of a person so you know to move forward or not, and having them retell that lost worth story.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

Okay. So such a great model. It's helping people rewire involving their worth and self-worth and just learn so much about your theory and how to integrate. And it's so interesting. And I think many clients would benefit in understanding about even the difference between self-esteem, self-confidence, and for clinicians to be able to share information as well. So thank you so much for your time, Donna, and and sharing these resources and happy to post anything up on you know this this episode that can help clinicians find you. For clients to be sure to buy the book. Sorry, was there workshops or training courses available on this?

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Whether through your they're on the website. So there have been a few, and there probably be two or three more. It just depends on what I have time to say yes to.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

Okay, great. Well, thank you so much. I'm looking forward to joining your community and learning more as well, too. So I appreciate your work and contributions, and thank you for your time.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Thank you. Have a good day.