The Relationship Is The Therapy: Carl Roger's Client Centered Approach with Dr. Gregory Obert PhD

We talk with Dr. Greg Obert about client-centered therapy and why real change often starts when a therapist shows up as a genuine human being. We dig into deep listening, the power of presence, and how relationship-first work strengthens outcomes even in structured trauma treatment. 
• Greg’s journey from early psychology classes to clinical practice and podcasting 
• why an overly rigid CBT introduction can miss the person behind the symptoms 
• what the Gloria therapy tapes teach about empathy and therapeutic presence 
• training that builds listening skills by naming the underlying message 
• client-centered therapy as collaborative rather than directive 
• unconditional positive regard as nonjudgment rather than approval 
• how authenticity lowers client resistance and builds trust 
• trauma work with PTSD and veterans while keeping the person ahead of protocol 
• why scripts work best as templates customized to the relationship 
• Greg’s book The Man On The Bench and the impact of unexpected human connection 
Visit the Royal Oasis Psychotherapy Institute, RoyalOasisPI.com. 
 

Transcript

Welcome To The Therapist Lounge

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Hi, welcome to the Therapist Lounge. I'm Sabrea Gong, licensed clinical social worker. Here with me today, we have Dr. Greg Obert. He's here to talk with us today about client-centered therapy and approaches, what it's like to actually have the theory behind and the training behind the practice and what that looks like in such. Thanks so much for joining me today.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Thanks so much for having me. I'm really thrilled to be on.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

If you'd like to share about yourself and also your podcast as well,

Greg’s Path Into Mental Health

SPEAKER_01 1:15

too. Yeah, and your journey, what got you here as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Of course, how much time we got. Is this like a 30 seconds or less? Or no, I that's right. No, I mean, I uh I've been in mental health for a long time. My journey kind of believe it or not, it started in high school of all places. We had an intro to psychology class in high school, which at least anecdotally is pretty odd. I think most of the time that's usually in college, but I absolutely loved it. And I just didn't really look back since then. I ended up going on to get my master's in community counseling from DePaul in Chicago. And while I was there, that was the training that I ended up doing, which I'll speak, I could speak on more later. That was the very purest client-centered therapy training that I had, which was very challenging, believe it or not, but also very rewarding at the same time. And then I was a master's level clinician for a number of years and decided that I couldn't really do all the things that I wanted to do with that credential. So I decided to upgrade my credential. And I went back to school 2017 and finished in 2023 with my doctorate in clinical psychology. While I have only been a psychologist for a handful of years, I have been working in mental health for a while. And uh I just find it incredibly rewarding. I usually tend to gravitate towards things like mood, executive stress. I do a lot of trauma work with PTSD and a lot of work with veterans too. As far as the podcast that you mentioned, I've been uh hosting a podcast for, if you can believe it now, almost 10 years on guided meditations. And so it started out as every other week being a free guided meditation for people to listen to. But then after I opened my own practice, I decided to try and add some more value in those off weeks. So it started out as sort of a therapy 101 series for people that didn't know much about therapy. And then I ran out of ideas. So I decided to start having people on to ask them about their expertise, their life experiences. And in fact, you so graciously offered to come on. I'm not sure the timing of the releases, but I look forward to having that uh on my podcast as well. So uh I think there's a lot of value over there, and I hope to bring the value that I have, the knowledge that I have to your audience as well.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Great. Um, yeah. So sharing, you know, all those years' expertise and how client-centered approach and theory can help clients. Just wondering what that was experience was like for you and what was interesting

Why Rogers Beat Early CBT

SPEAKER_01 4:00

about that theory.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

Yeah, so I think I was very turned off to CBT early in my career. And it's nothing against CBT. In fact, I do CBT at various points in treatment with various people. I think it's a great treatment. The problem is my introduction to it was very much here are your worksheets. And if you do your worksheets, then you're going to get better. And that's it. There's really nothing else to do. And now I obviously know that that was just a very poor interpretation of what CBT is. And whoever introduced that way of being in CBT to me, hopefully they have gotten some training themselves. But I was so since that was my perception, I was drawn to Rogers' very warm, empathic, just kind of open way of being with his clients. And this really culminated for me with seeing the Gloria tapes. And I don't know how many in your audience have ever seen those, but if if they're unfamiliar, it was a series of three tapes in, I think it was the 60s or the 70s, and they had one woman named Gloria sit down with Carl Rogers, Pearls, and Ellis, and they each gave her about 30 minutes of therapy. And I love watching the Pearls one because that dude was he was wild. But Ellis, it was just kind of boring. It just seemed like he was talking a lot at her, but something about how Carl Rogers sat with Gloria and how he could barely say anything, and yet not only cut to the heart of what she was trying to say, but it also allowed her to move through whatever resistance she was feeling because of that approach. And so I knew that this is something that I need to study, and

The Gloria Tapes And Lineage

SPEAKER_00 6:00

this is something I have to have in my repertoire. So I was fortunate enough while I was at DePaul to get put in contact with a private practice in Chicago, Chicago Counseling Associates, shout out. But the owner of the practice was very much into client-centered therapy. And that's really all I knew until I started working there. And very much into client-centered therapy is very much an understatement because they're very proud of their lineage. You know, it was Carl Rogers, my supervisor's supervisor, my supervisor, me. And they loved the fact that they could trace that lineage directly back to him. We had extensive didactics on basically how to unlearn everything that we learned the last few years. I say we, it was me and the other students, what we learned in grad school the last few years. While I sort of disagree with the framing of that now, I do think that the sentiment was really very helpful because so much of therapy is, at least in in graduate school, it was you just need to do X and then Y is going to happen. And you and I both know as real world practitioners that sometimes happens. And most of the time it is just wishful thinking. So over the course of that year, I was introduced to different ways of sitting in a room with people and really needing to practice developing my listening skills. I remember one exercise in particular, which maybe it's more common than I think, but again, at least anecdotally, I never really heard people engaging in this. But it would just be two people, you know, one person playing the client, one person playing the therapist. And without asking questions and without just restating what the other person was saying, can you get underneath the content and really say in one to two sentences what they're actually trying to say? And for a student, man, it was hard. And I still find it challenging sometimes, depending on the client. But that really helped me work on my listening skills and trying to, again, just cut to the heart of what a person's trying to say. Because I think a lot of times clients tend to get stuck on the content. But something that I admired a lot about Rogers, which I try to emulate myself, is if I can just get at the heart of the matter, we can sort of, I don't want to say ignore the content, but it sort of takes a back seat because we're getting at the underlying issue. That I think was an incredibly uh important training experience for me.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

So about client-centered approach, it's about getting to the heart of the issue. Like I always think that's where the client is at, but it seems like it's deeper. And I'm wondering if you could talk about that for maybe clinicians out there who might be interested in getting more training or trying to get a sense of how is it used? What do you mean about trying to get to that that core deeper meaning that they're saying? I'm thinking my own training, like you're directing them somewhere. And I think people are afraid to kind of go there. And so when you're kind of like going straight to the point, I could see it would probably be I'd probably be back and forth with

Listening For The Underlying Meaning

SPEAKER_01 9:30

it in my head a bit with the different trainings.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

So was I during that training year, let me tell you.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

No, but you're not you're not wrong. It's true that client-centered therapy, and to some extent, I I would argue all therapy is based on where the client is at. I mean, we can't make anybody change. But the way that I was trained is that Rogers would say, and and in the things that I've read that he wrote, what's going to come up for somebody is what's most important to talk about. So if you want to talk about why the best time to go to the beach is at noon, and I say, no, we can't talk about that. In fact, we need to talk about this other thing. Well, then that really wouldn't be serving you in a client-centered way. If anything, that would kind of be reinforcing the theory of psychopathology that he had. And so it's best to kind of meet you there. And I can certainly ask you, would it be okay to offer up some ideas about this, that, or the other thing? And that's not really directive. Now, some people may say, well, sort of subtly, okay, maybe, but I think the overall point gets lost that client-centered therapy is very collaborative in nature. And I'm going to meet the client not only where they're at, but I can also enhance their experience by showing up to the relationship in a very authentic way, which for a lot of therapists that I've seen over the years, I don't think they do a lot. I think a lot of times that wall goes up. And again, just anecdotally, it happens to be the behaviorists and the CBT people. The wall goes up, and I just have to kind of do therapy the way that the book says. There can be value in that, but the thing that I learned, and I suspect you learned too in grad school, the most important thing in any therapy interaction is the relationship. And showing up as authentically as possible is going to help the person move through whatever problems that they have. And so I'll simplify sort of uh his theory of psychopathology, but Carl Rogers talked a lot about how we are always striving to be the best that we can be, that self-actualization. And a lot of times we tend to stunt our own growth because there are people out there that we care about and we want their approval. And so we're going to do whatever we can do to make sure that they like us. These would be the conditions of worth that he mentions. And so many times people, whether it's actual or perceived, think that they have to act in certain ways or be certain people to others in order to function and have good relationships. But of course, that's not going to line up with who they actually are and who they want to be. So by having the therapist show up in a genuine, open way, without judgment, keep in mind that doesn't mean approval. I may still disapprove of what a client's doing, but without judgment to the best of my ability, they're going to start to move through their issues on their own. I don't have to push them necessarily. Now, some people may need a little bit more directive therapy, and certainly that that's a conversation I'm happy to have. But in general, I think most people are willing to work through their own stuff if they have just a truly open, empathetic mirror that they can look into while they do it.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

So I don't think everybody gets that experience. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

No, I'm I'm very fortunate that that I had that. Yeah, I I think that the pride that a lot of my instructors had in that lineage made things a little bit more challenging initially in my, in my internship. Because, as I mentioned, it was very much kind of unlearn everything that you knew. And it was very hard for me to sit in the room with a client because I didn't know what I was supposed to do or not do. Because they were very clear that no, you need to be active in the room. Client-centered therapy is not just sitting there going, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. How does that make you feel? Mm-hmm. Despite what some people uh out there may think client-centered therapy is. But then if I did too much, that wouldn't be great either, because that would be directive. And I had one supervisor, such a pleasant woman, supervision with her was rough because we'd record sessions, she would listen to maybe five, 10 seconds, shake her head, stop the tape, and be like, why did you say that? That's not, that's not how you're supposed to say it. It should be more like this. So it was just a brutal kick to the ego for the half of the year that I had her supervising me. But the thing that I took away from it and continue to use most today is that having that authentic self show up to the room is sometimes difficult, especially because of how some of my other training says keep the wall up. But when I tear that wall down in appropriate ways, I find that I can show up in a way that not many other therapists have done in my experience. I think that having that training has helped me to show up a bit more like Rogers with my clients. And that means that they feel more understood and they feel a connection that maybe they haven't from other therapists, because I suspect this has been true for you and your practice as well. I can't tell you, and it saddens me every time. The number of times I get emails or phone calls, I'm just so glad you even reached out to me. You reached back out to me because no one responded to me. Or yeah, I was in therapy for two, three months, and I just felt like they didn't really care. I just felt like I was kind of going through the motions and I didn't even really think they were interested in what I was going through. And while certainly those are just client reports, you know, maybe the therapists were actually better than what the client said, you know, I do believe that there are people out there that focus on the protocol more than the actual relationship. And the protocols are only going to be enhanced that much more if we can sit authentically with somebody and try and understand what they're going through. And I'm not saying take on what they're going through. What I'm saying is as much as we possibly can, just sit and try and put ourselves in those shoes. And just by doing that, it is such a breath of fresh air to so many clients. I guess the best way to put it is I mean, how many uh of your listeners out there have somebody who just for an hour sits with them and just tries to understand their entire world, you know, for an hour a week? I know I certainly don't have that. It's just a sort of a magical thing that happens in the room. One of my favorite quotes, I might get it slightly wrong, but the um the sentiment is there from Rogers is that the curious thing is that when I let people just be, that's when they change the most. And that's that unconditional positive regard showing up that I'm just gonna let you explore you. And I'm gonna walk alongside you. We're gonna look at it together, I'm gonna understand you. And this is going to be enough to help you move through your conditions of worth so that you don't have to limit yourself anymore.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

That's pretty freeing.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

It really is.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

And I was wondering about your expertise in trauma and using in and thinking about Carl Rogers' approach and

Trauma Work Beyond The Protocol

SPEAKER_01 18:10

practice and what that's like. I'm just thinking about maybe people's experience with the therapists with the wall up versus those who show up authentically to listen and and be someone's witness to their traumatic story. Yeah, what's your experience been like?

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Yeah, so uh I think many people would find this to be sort of a conflicting way of being. You know, typically when you think about trauma, you're gonna think about sort of the gold standard EVPs, you know, prolonged exposure, cognitive processing therapy, EMDR. And those, of course, are very structured. The problem with a lot of those treatments isn't that they don't work. It's that, particularly for a treatment like PE, there just tends to be higher dropout rates. And part of that is just the nature of trauma. I mean, people have a hard time looking at the worst thing that's ever happened to them and moving through that. No judgment around it, I totally get it. What I do think may be happening in some of those cases, maybe even a plurality of those cases, is that a lot of those therapists, once again, kind of stick to the protocol and they forget the person. Or they might take personally a lot of what the client brings. So you get this a lot in working with veterans. They they do a, well, I'll censor myself. They give you a lot of um poop tests. They're testing you to see if you can cut it, if you can get them. They will say aggressive things sometimes and they will push your buttons, or at least they will try to. And again, that's the content. I think a lot of therapists get caught up in that. And, you know, I'm not immune to it. It's happened to me before as well. But if we go underneath that, what they're really trying to say is, can you understand me? Can you sit with me as I go over the worst thing that's ever happened to me? Is there a way for you to understand? And when I just sit in the room with them, as soon as I sit down with them and introduce myself and kind of go over what the therapy is going to look like, I think that tends to reduce the resistance much faster, in some cases completely, because they know that they're not going to be judged in a way that maybe other people out there are going to judge them. So a classic example of that judgment is why is this still bothering you? That happened five, 10 years ago. Just just get over it. Just stop thinking about it. Well, yeah, I mean, if they could just stop thinking about it, you know, flip that off like a light switch, they would have done it many years ago. But they can't. And so the fact that I can show up, and even when they when they say that, oh, these people just keep judging me, I might say something to the effect of you feel like you can't really be yourself, and you feel like people are trying to push you into an unrealistic way of living your life, like ignoring your trauma. As soon as they hear that, it's like the light bulb goes on and they go, oh wow. Like you get it, you understand that. But if I'm just following the protocol, I wouldn't necessarily say that. Might go, okay, that's nice, what you just said. Understand. Now let me move on because I have this other thing that I need to add in. So and I tend to see that with maybe more inexperienced therapists as well. Let's stick with the script. There's nothing wrong with having a script, but it it's more of a template that you sort of use in the best way that you can. Uh, you customize. It with your own personality, with the notion that the relationship always comes first. Because if the relationship isn't present, it doesn't matter how good the protocol is, the client's not going to have a buy-in. So I find that Roger's approach has really enhanced my ability to connect with people who have been traumatized. And I think it leads to better outcomes.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

I think that in therapy is how to build that rapport.

SPEAKER_02 22:29

Right.

Presence As The Rapport Builder

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Um checking off the boxes. And then what did you learn about rapport building with Rogers and client-centered approach? I'm assuming like it's through like the whole process, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Abs absolutely. So one thing that that always kind of stuck with me when I watched the Gloria tapes is after the session, uh, they had a little debrief with with Rogers. And something that he said that really shocked me when I first heard it was I don't really remember everything that we talked about. And I'm like, how could you not remember? You sat down with her for like 30 minutes. I think what he was trying to say, because I've I've experienced this myself, is that when you find yourself fully present with somebody in the moment, you're not necessarily thinking about the next thing to do. And this is something that my supervisors at that internship told me to do. Stop trying to do things in your head. Stop trying to think about the next thing. Again, not the wording that I would use, but I understand the sentiment, which is I think a lot of times we tend to think we have to just move on to the next thing, exactly like you said. What's the next question? What's the next piece of the intake, whatever the case may be? But it's not about moving on to the next therapeutic technique, because the relationship is the therapeutic technique, sitting there with them and making sure you're building that relationship without as as best as we can, without bringing in all of our own stuff, telling them, well, you know, if you do this, you'll feel better. You and I both know that that's probably true. And also we don't necessarily know the full extent of their lives. We're given a glimpse one hour a week into somebody's life. And so what on the surface level might seem like the best way to be might not actually be the best way to be. I tend to think about really just the word maybe a lot. You know, well, maybe, maybe that works, maybe it doesn't. What do you think as the client? You know, what if you were to do this thing, I wonder what it might look like for you. I wonder if it would be worthwhile for you. That in and of itself gives them the freedom to explore that. I'm not pushing them into doing it one way or the other. And I think just that, that knowing of that there's somebody out there who gets me, who I can show up for every week and just really bear my soul in a way that I feel comfortable doing. That's all you need. I mean, yes, we can talk about different types of disorders, and maybe there's other things that we can do to enhance healing. I agree with that. None of that comes unless that relationship is there first.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

It sounds like it's been such beneficial training and learning and understanding about Rogers and how he witnesses person's narrative, experience, and really showing how

Why Deep Listening Feels Hard

SPEAKER_01 25:45

you listen.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

Yeah. And it's it's hard. I think that's what a lot of people don't understand. It's hard because you're just saying, okay, well, I'm just gonna sit and pay attention. But I challenge anybody out there to try that exercise that I mentioned earlier. Sit with somebody and have them tell you about their day and what they were thinking and feeling and see if you can get it exactly right without just restating it. It's difficult. And it's even more difficult if you can sort of go underneath the content and cut to the heart of the matter. What are they actually trying to say? Yet it's in doing that that we see the most benefit, at least from a client-centered perspective, we see the most benefit in people's healing. And it reminds me of another quote of his, which I might get it a little bit wrong, but something to the effect that when I look at a sunset, I don't say, well, yeah, there's this like pink over here, but that really should be an orange, and here's some purple coming in, but I think that needs to be red. You just let the sunset unfold as it is. You experience it as it is. And in so doing, you get to enjoy the moment that much more rather than try and force it to be something else. And the same is true with clients when we can experience them as they are and let them unfold as they are by actively paying attention to what they're trying to say, by actively trying to get at what the underlying sentiment is, we can see some very powerful healing.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Like you said, get to that core, right, of what's underneath it all.

The Man On The Bench Story

SPEAKER_00 27:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

I was wondering if you could talk about your book.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

I would love to.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

And share what that's about.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

Sure. So my book, The Man on the Bench, which again is crazy to think that came out 10 years ago. But I was really heavily inspired to write it after reading Tuesdays with Maury. And for those that don't know Mitch album, he's had a number of bestsellers over the years. Probably that's the biggest one. Five People You Meet in Heaven is another one. But he was a sports writer for a very long time. I think he still does a lot with sports. But uh he had a mentor, I think it was his sociology teacher, named Maury. And Maury ended up uh getting diagnosed with ALS. And so they ended up meeting, I think it was weekly until uh Maury ended up passing. They even did a was it dateline maybe? You can find the videos on YouTube still and listen to him talk. But uh it was just a very powerful story to me hearing this older man counsel his former student and just talk about life and and the meaning of it and how to live a better life. And so I decided to try my hand at a Mitch Album-esque book. So The Man on the Bench is uh a story about a young guy who he's in his 20s who has trouble with uh with life. He's just been dealt a really bad hand, and he's really kind of thinking about ending it all because it's just so rough. And he decides to go to a park for the last time. And as he sits there on a bench, an older gentleman sits down next to him and they begin to strike up a conversation. You learn a bit more about each one of them and what brought them there, and then ultimately what happens to both of them. And uh, I found it to just be a very powerful story from my perspective. I mean, I'm a little biased because I wrote it, but it to be a very powerful story uh about how people, even in the darkest of places, can change if they have the willingness to go there. And I'm just I'm very proud of the work that I did on it. I even tried my hand at uh acting it out. I did the the audiobook on Audible. I had a few friends uh help me out with some of the voices. But it was just a really cool experience to write that and and put it out to the world. And I think there's a lot of value in there for people that are looking for an inspirational story.

SPEAKER_01 29:57

Thanks so much for sharing the book. And it

How Strangers Can Shift A Day

SPEAKER_01 30:00

just sounds very inspirational. I was thinking of my own experience too, one time just got caught up in things and the day-to-day stressors, and I was running late catching a train and feeling stuck and helpless, and suddenly just per this woman turned around and started talking to me. And I felt a sense of calm. And I learned about her and her life, and we happened to sit next to each other on the train, and it was just a really interesting exchange that felt different than I've ever had before and impactful in a way, and it reminds me of kind of your book. Um that it's amazing how random people can sort of pop up, give us lessons or give us the little little support we need or emotional hug in times.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

Um I'm really glad you shared that because I've heard people, you know, say, well, but it's not really realistic, right? People don't just pop up like that. I'm like, yes, people just pop up like that. They just show up in your in your life, and you're not even sure you want to interact with them. But when we do, a lot of times they they help out, and it sounds like you had that experience. I'm glad that you did.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

Yeah, it was very, yeah, different unique. The pr I'm sure the person probably doesn't even know, right? It's just like probably not just in that moment as in early 30s, live moved to a different city and just felt like, yeah, frazzled moss, and it was just like poof, turn right around and it yeah, I'm just like sometimes we wonder when things happen. Yeah. That it was just a great experience. So your story sounds quite a similar type of interaction. They do happen.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

They sure do. More than people think.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

I'm looking forward to reading it. Um, thanks so much, Greg, for your time today. So, everyone, if you want to pick up Greg's book, An Author, Man on the Bench, Dr. Greg Overt, thanks for your time. Um, if you'd like to share the name of your podcast, website where people can reach you for more information or just to consult with you if they're interested.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

Of course. Well,

Where To Find Greg’s Work

SPEAKER_00 32:00

thank you for having me again. It was such a pleasure. The best place to reach out to me is my practice website, which is Royal Oasis Psychotherapy Institute, but I don't want to make everyone type that out. So it's RoyalOasisPI.com. People can learn about the therapies that I do. People can check out my podcast there as well, which is Meditations by Gregory T. Obert. There's a link to Amazon for my book. People can check out my video series. I'm on YouTube doing mental health videos and tips and tricks and all that jazz, as well as I stream on Rumble, uh, because YouTube doesn't tend to like the darker stuff, but a series called Dark Psychology, where we talk about sort of the seedy, darker parts of the human mind. So that and everything else that I do, it's it's on there. So RoyalOasis PI dot.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

Thanks again. Appreciate your insight and expertise around a client-centered approach, and happy to have you on any other time.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

Love to be on. Thank you.