Why India Is Reshaping the Global Economy

In this episode of Beyond GDP: The Social Progress Podcast, host Michael Green, CEO of the Social Progress Imperative, speaks with Dr. Amit Kapoor, Chairman of the Institute for Competitiveness, about the challenges behind India’s rise and why measuring progress requires looking beyond GDP.

Dr. Kapoor explains how India’s development story is shaped by social progress indicators, environmental pressures, and shifting global economic dynamics. From foreign aid and international development to urban pollution and global influence, the conversation explores how countries can measure success in ways that reflect the real well-being of their citizens.

They also discuss why GDP alone cannot capture a nation’s progress, what alternative metrics reveal about inequality and sustainability, and how India’s trajectory may influence global development in the decades ahead.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Why GDP is an incomplete measure of national progress
 • How India’s social progress has evolved over the past decade
 • The global impact of foreign aid spending
 • Why many of the world’s most polluted cities are in India
 • How economic strength translates into geopolitical influence

Timestamps

00:00:00 Introduction & why India’s development story matters

00:01:38 Is India’s social progress slowing down?

00:03:35 Does foreign aid actually work?

00:04:11 Measuring progress beyond GDP

00:09:42 Why social progress indicators matter

00:13:21 India’s development trajectory and inequality

00:18:10 India’s pollution crisis and public health

00:20:22 Why solving pollution is so complex

00:23:32 Economic power and global influence

00:25:58 India’s role in the global economy

00:26:03 Can economic growth solve inequality?

00:27:39 Final thoughts on measuring progress beyond GDP

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome to Beyond GDP, the social progress podcast. I'm Michael Green, CEO of the Social Progress Imperative, and in today's episode we're going to be talking about India. Now the most populous country in the world with nearly one and a half billion people. You can't talk about the future of humanity on this planet without talking about India. And India's at a very interesting stage. It's an ever more paradoxical country. It's a country where, despite progress, malnourishment is still prevalent. Yet it's also a country where type 2 diabetes driven by lifestyle is booming in the new middle class. It's a country where deaths from poor sanitation are still amongst some of the worst in the world. But it's a country that's got a space program. It's a country that was a leader of the non-aligned movement in a world where now no one seems aligned with anyone. So it's a great moment to be talking about India, and we couldn't have anyone better to speak to than my guest today, Dr. Amit Kapoor, who is the honorary chair of the Institute for Competitiveness India. And in full disclosure, Amit and I have collaborated on a number of projects in India, including building a social progress index for the states and districts of India. Amit, welcome.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

Thank you, Michael. It's absolutely a pleasure to be with you today and talk about social progress and issues that seem to be happening around India or the challenges that we are tackling right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Well let's dive into that. And I mean one of the big headlines we had from the 2026 Social Progress Index was that there seems to have been a slowdown in social progress globally since 2021. So what we thought at first was sort of a COVID blip seems to be a more structural slowdown. And of course, if you're calculating a world score, India is a huge part of that. And it does seem there's been a slowdown in social progress in India as well since in the last five years or so. Do you observe that within India?

SPEAKER_02 2:07

So you know, like uh Michael, this is a very important question in terms of uh whether there's a real slowdown or what are the challenges to what is really happening within the country itself. Uh if you talk about social progress index, and I was just looking at some of the numbers from uh your work, India has of course increased by about 1.5 points in the last few years uh on the social progress index. So between 24 and 26, we have improved by that much. But over that last decade, between 2014 to 20 uh 4, we increased by close to about nine points. So that was a significant change. So the pace of change was very, very significant. And that was being driven by some of the programs that the government was actually running at that point in time. So 2014 became a fairly important point in time when the government said, okay, now let's try to understand things pertaining to uh social development, quality of life, ease of living, and so on and so forth. And a lot of steps were taken. But having said that, uh, of course, there are challenges internally like what is happening within the country right now, or across the world per se. The world is going through a certain set of turmoil which we had not possibly expected. Like if you really talk about the blip that you're really talking about, the COVID blip. Yes, COVID was a very difficult period, but what we have seen post that is far more difficult with the kind of wars that we are seeing right now, the Russia-Ukraine war to the whole situation with the trade embargoes or the trade wars that were that are going on, they have a very severe detrimental effect on how economies are growing, how economies are spending, what is it that they're focusing on. Say a very simple point. Within the last 12 months, you've had a USAID closing down. And when USAID closes down, there is an impact that is going to happen on social progress across the world. There were programs happening in India to a certain extent, there were amazing or a large set of programs happening in Africa. Nobody has actually said that as to what is the impact of USAID closing down because there was a huge impact. It was just spending about 0.6% of US GDP, if I'm not wrong, but the impact on the lives of people was very significant. So now if you really look at that whole funding pattern as well, there seems to be a certain change that has happened in terms of like how you really work on the developmental efforts. But let's let's talk about COVID itself. So when you say social progress, should we just look at a certain set of numbers or should we we should really talk about achievements as well? The most important thing here is the kind of achievements India was able to do during COVID. COVID was such a huge uh what do you call situation that was happening. In fact, when we really look at the numbers, the expected uh death rate or the number of people who were dying because of COVID at that point in time and when the initial disease happened, it was close to about 4.5% of the patients were dying in the US, 6% in Italy. If you really look at that number, if that is the kind of deaths that were happening, India is a population of 150 crores, or that's a great number, 1.5 billion people. And if it was 6% in India, we're suddenly talking about 90 million uh whatever uh deaths. It never happened in India. I think India did a great job in terms of understanding as to how COVID had to be managed. Yes, there have been debates in terms of whether lockdown was appropriate, right, wrong, etc. And I totally disagree with that debate for a simple reason. If India did not lock down, the spread of the disease would have been absolutely huge. So, yes, there have been positive impacts. The healthcare infrastructure at that point in time was seriously ramped up, and that the positive effects we did see, and yes, people did die in India, were but just they were just about 4 million deaths in comparison to what was expected. So there were a set of things which were really functioning within the country. The second thing you have to really see is this I'll go back to one of the things that we had done together, and that was the study on the aspirational district program. When you talk about the aspirational district program as well, this was about looking at the bottom 112 districts within the country. And if you really look at the outcomes on that, they have moved socially up significantly. The 50% of them now can actually be within the top 300 districts from social progress point of view. So, yes, there have been positives there as well. But again, when you talk about India, India cannot and should not be looked at as just one single entity per se. India has to be looked at as an aggregation of many, many realities, many locations. We are talking about states, we are talking about districts. So if you really talk about districts in India itself, we are close to about 760 districts on last count that I have. We keep on increasing the number of districts that we have, but 760, and then out of those 760, what is the kind of change that is happening? If you really look at it, like India hits above its weight in terms of social progress, then economic development. Your report itself, if you really look at the numbers, India is ranked uh what do you call close to 144 on per capita uh income uh in the world, but on social progress, on issues of certain issues of development, India does far better than what we have actually seen. In terms of the slowdown as well, there could be certain set of parameters which have gone down. I'll not deny that fact. But the question here is what has improved? I think the story in India about improvement is also very significant. And then, of course, there are certain set of programs on which we uh lag behind or we drop the ball in the middle. There's a significant program on Swatch Bharat, which was Clean India movement. It was a great thing in terms of creation of infrastructure for toilets, etc., and creating their access. Nearly 100% of the people have access to it. But the question is whether we have gone ahead and made more improvements after. We just stopped at a certain level in terms of saying, let's create the toilets, but you had to create much more beyond that. So now we have to hasten the pace for that. So that is where the slowdown is. And then when you talk about, say, a certain set of parameters, like say education as well, there are positives and negatives to that whole thing. There is, of course, uh learning loss that has happened during the COVID period, but now we are actually seeing certain set of gains uh emerging. So because the average number of learning years or the fall behind in because of COVID was close to about six years for children, I think that recovery has already happened. But now I think what the kind of disaster that COVID was, we have moved far ahead on that. But yes, I I think I'll also agree with your one point that yes, it is slow. We need to be faster. At this present rate, I think the world will achieve SDGs at about in the year 2100, something India will possibly achieve it in 2017.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

Um, India, uh, that was a reply as uh as rich and as densely packed as India itself. Lots of ways we can go. This let me just pick out a couple of points I want to emphasize. I mean, one, I always like to reiterate this point. We know from social progress index data that it's harder being a big country. So I think that's very important to put India's achievements in that context, especially its size and its diversity. I'd also emphasize that although India's social progress has slowed in the last five years, in neighbor, China, for example, it's actually stopped. So it's not been a stalling in India, it has been a slowing down. And also if you look over that longer period, actually India has jumped a huge amount, as you say, since 2011, nine or more points of social progress, with some very big wins in some of these things like sanitation and health and infrastructure and a whole range of areas. But we have to talk about uh the elephant in the room with India, which is that although actually India still scores pretty well on issues around rights, we have seen that's an area where India's scores on the social progress index have declined. Now, whenever I say that in India or to an Indian audience, I it gets quite a reaction. So maybe you could help us unpack this. What's why are we seeing indicators showing India's rights pushing going backwards? But also why is there a sense from many commentators within India that this isn't actually a fair assessment of how India's doing?

SPEAKER_02 9:50

So you're like again, I I think this is a very important question, and we need to uh understand the nitty gritties of the thing. And let me uh talk about this from my own experience itself. When you talk about writing, we have written the Social Progress Index, which is a fairly uh difficult report or a tough report, and then it does really talk about the negatives that India has and how it needs to be uh improved, and it was done with the the Economic Advisory Council to the Prime Minister. Uh, I have written pieces like, say, the Competitiveness Roadmap for India in 2047. It in itself talks about the issues and challenges that India faces. So the question here is that whether we are allowed to say something or not, I don't think at any given point in time there has been an issue that people are not able to utter or people are not able to say. Yes, what has happened because of social media is that the narratives have actually changed, or how the narratives happen on social media has changed. Today, I think if you really look at Indian newspapers, the kind and the quality of analysis that we see in newspapers is far superior than what we actually see on the uh social media. And suddenly everybody will say everybody's uh what you call shouting you down on social media or whatever. Social media is a maze, which is one hell of a mess in itself. But if you really look at the newspapers, I don't think there is uh no reason to believe that you have been stopped from sharing the information that has actually happened, or if there are some negatives. There are commentators who have written, and I don't think anybody has stopped them. Talk about, say, somebody like Pratab Hanumata, possibly one of the most sharp commentators uh India has, Tablin saying, again, a very sharp commentator, and does it with a very huge level of whatever sometimes negativity, sometimes they have their point of view, but those point of views have been getting accepted. The second point out here is in terms of understanding as to you, what are the kind of things that the world has faced? What are the issues that we are really saying need to be managed? Say one of the things, like when you talk about a place like UP, uh that is the state of Uttar Pradesh, uh, it was possibly one of the most difficult states that you could have actually seen in India about 10 years back. But suddenly you have a state where the level of crime has actually gone down. The the incidence of uh what do you call, I would rather say, crimes against women, they have gone down to absolutely next to single digits to very low numbers that you you can really talk about. Yes, you can always say there were some rights that were circumvented in this case because there were some people who were pushed by what do you call on this. I do agree that yes, you cannot have collateral damage, and I don't think collateral damage has happened. It was more in terms of saying as to you, you cannot commit these kind of things. You will have to get severely reprimanded for that. So there are two points on this. Like one is on control of crime, the second thing is in terms of saying S to where the conversations are allowed to happen. Absolutely conversations that's allowed to happen. Yes, on media, there seems to be a debate which says that media is totally controlled by a certain set of people to uh or the industrialists and everything, but that's a that's a truth across the world. When you talk about demo, what I call decline of rights, I think USC is more decline of rights than India per se. Why are we not even really talking about that? I think it bec it has become a pet peeve in the world to just say that India is doing something wrong. You have to see as to what is happening across the world as well. I think India does a better job on some of the rights, like women's rights. India does a better job than US. In fact, in the US, you have the Epstein files or whatever, and the kind of people who are on the list and the kind of crimes they have committed. I think in India, if that would have happened, that person, whether he was the Prime Minister or the Chief Minister, he would have got lynched. It is not so it does not happen here. So what are the kind of rights that we are really talking about? I think the world has to understand you can't really put just one single lens on everything and just say that this is my view, this is the Western world view, how things have to happen. And then again, like on the rights itself, I must also say I totally disagree with people who say in India that people don't have religious rights. I totally disagree with that. I think I come from a country and I'm proud of that fact. I recently gave a lecture wherein uh I said that why is it that I would like to die in India? And the biggest thing was that if you actually look at the Kumbh that happened, that was a festival wherein close to about 600 million people thronged in about 50 days. Crazy number of people. And it was when you have 600 million people coming in, it is just not Hindus. It is about uh Christians, it's about Muslims, it's about Sikhs, every caste, creed, religion was present there in that festival. And they were all living together. So I think a lot of people, what I call, read too much in terms of what is happening. Yes, I do agree that there was some lynching that happened. Uh, there are some uh what I call issues and some crazy bygots who'll be there and who'll do those stupid things, but that does not define a country. That does not define the people. In fact, my in my life, you know, like I think that the the the cultural diversity that I've seen, the way people have operated, I think it has just been absolutely tremendous. We can always go out and criticize if I really want to do that. But India has been one of the most resilient places. And then I would also like to shun this point of view on rights. You know, like when you talk about a place like India, and when you talk about rights per se, there's something very, very important that uh needs to be understood from uh from that point of view. And that is how is it that we're we are intermingling? How is it that we are coordinating ourselves? How is it that we accept people? What is the kind of creative things that are happening? Uh when you talk about the film industry, look at the kind of uh things that happen there. Yes, there is this caustic nationalistic things that will happen, but then there is of course the sensitive set of stories that will emerge as well. So we need to appreciate those set of things. India is something which is so diverse. Like if India had this rights issue, India could not have stayed as a country or as a single entity. In fact, I would like to invoke uh Winston Churchill. I I think uh Winston Churchill did say that uh India cannot remain as one country itself when India got its freedom. We have remained as one country and we are proud to be Indian, we are proud of our cultural heritage, and I think people live together. So I must also tell you something very interesting on this rights issue. India has far deeper connections between religions than any other place in the world. Today, if I am a Hindu, I am a Christian, I am a uh what do you call a Muslim or Islamic person or I'm a Sikh, the intermingling is far more between the festivals itself. So what are we really saying? What rights are we really talking about? What numbers are we talking about? And then the kind of uh institution that you were talking about, we them at one point in time, they don't seem to even have a website now. So that's that's what it would be. So over to you, Michael.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

Uh I mean a very robust defense of India's record. I think just emphasize two points. One is we would not have got involved in building a social progress index for the states and districts of India with the government of India if there had been any interference. And there was no interference. So I do assert that. And I do also assert your point that actually what the results came out with was not always very flattering to the current government of India in terms of which states were doing well and which weren't. So I'd certainly, from that personal testimony, we certainly had the freedom to publish that piece of research without any interference. I think also I'd say, I mean, I think you make a very important point, which is that the the decline in rights is not a peculiarly Indian issue. We are seeing that across a whole range of countries. You mentioned the US, but across many countries in Europe. So I think seeing it within that context is also important. And I think we'll have to see. I mean, one thing we also see in our data is that where we've seen very dramatic declines in rights with very sort of authoritarian populist leaders, you then see that almost um metastasise as a problem and lead to slowdown in other areas of social progress. We haven't seen that in India. Hopefully that's not the case and that things will go uh would there things will carry on going well in India. But let me turn to another problem area with India, which is the environment. I mean it's quite shocking how bad the numbers are for India on things like particulate air pollution, and of course, Delhi's air is famous. Um we understand why it's like that. There's a price of development, but at what point is India gonna be able to get a grip on these environmental issues, not just for the sake of the wider COP process, but for the immediate health of its population?

SPEAKER_02 18:20

So, you know, this this is an important question, and I I would like to say that uh it's not only Delhi which is famous for its pollution. Out of the top ten cities, I think nine cities or the nine of the most polluted cities are in India. So let's get that uh into the conversation. I think so, you know, like when you talk about pollution, this is where we have seen a certain level of failure of sorts. There are too many political realities that happen. Uh you you know, like pollution as a construct, if it needs to be solved. It cannot be central government which has to solve it. It is where all the states will have to come together to solve it. When you talk about pollution in Delhi, there are three or four adjoining states, three adjoining states which will have to function together to make sure that Delhi does not get polluted. And these realities or the political realities in the states can actually stall the process of uh that whole thing. So that is one. I think there's also this very important thing, you know, you know, like for some years we have not accepted that pollution is an important issue to tackle with. I think it is also the issue with the uh what you call population in general, that we have not asked for cleaning our air. We have not been vociferous for cleaning our air. We have not asked for it. I think when you say that it is a right and when people become aware of it, that is when change will happen. I think we will have to assert ourselves as a population to say that pollution needs to be uh, what do you call solved and it has to be solved on a war footing. There is no doubt. Because the kind of losses that we see because of pollution are absolutely tremendous. And when I say losses, losses are in terms of the health losses that you're really talking about. I think there are some studies which say that an average person in Delhi loses anything between 9 to 11 years of his life because of the pollutants that actually exist. So that means that's a huge productive loss that you're really talking about. Young people getting heart attacks, people dying early and so on and so forth, the kind of medical expenses. So, yes, there is a huge economic flip to this, and we need to get it right. Somebody will have to just pick up and say that this is an important issue. In the last few years, I think there's a big change that has happened, and that is, and COVID was an important point here, I must tell you. Like, because COVID was a point when people started realizing as to how important clean air is. Because COVID, everything became clean, everything was just shut down. There was nothing on the road, and you just suddenly had blue skies and you could see the stars once again and all those kind of things. And that is when people started realizing. But I think there has to be a bigger movement of sorts. And when you talk about pollution, I would rather expand this to a larger point of view. And that larger point of view is going to be about cleanliness. And that larger point is going to be we have created the toilets, but what do you do with the heap of the garbage heaps that we can actually see? How do we really take care of them? How do we really say that there is going to be a complete system wherein we are able to do that disposal of garbage in a better way, wherein we are able to what do you call not create a far carbon footprint of that? We have not found a solution. So that there have to be solutions. And there is also this issue of what you what I would call as an implementation deficit. You know, it's in India the most interesting problem is not about ideas. India has great ideas. I think pollution has been discussed in every nook and corner of the country. I think every political meeting and every bureaucratic meeting. It has been discussed, and they must have just and they've ripped it apart. But the question in India is going to be that whether we have the capability to implement some of the ideas that actually happen. And this is where I've always said, you know, like there is this whole huge pet peeve in the minds of people that the Indian government is too big and all those kind of things. And I always say, you know, like the biggest challenge with the government of India is that it is understaffed. Today you need Far more people within the governmental system to make sure that the system functions. And you know, you know, like this whole uh what do you call McKenzie thinking of the world that you have to be lean, mean, thin, or whatever. Uh you just can't get it right that way. And anyways, like there has to be a side corollary. Whatever McKenzie says is has always been wrong, anyways. So that's a separate point. So but so if you really look at it, India needs to solve for implementation.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

Okay. Now look, we could there's so many trades we can follow. I just want to take some time before we close out. Just talk about India's place in the world. So India's emerged as the sort of the dominant power, the dominant economic power in South Asia. But then we're in this world now of these multipolar worlds, spheres of influence. But India's sphere of influence is sitting next to China. How is India figuring out the new geopolitics of spheres of influence and middle powers and all this kind of stuff?

SPEAKER_02 23:01

So, you know, like I think the larger point here is that what India wants to be and how it creates that sphere of influence. Yes, of course, India is important to the world. I think uh there are two parts to this uh thing as well. One is, of course, as you said, 1.5 billion people, huge market opportunity, huge access uh thing that you can create. So yes, India becomes a great marketplace. But what we need to do here is that India will have to do a lot of things within itself before we expand our sphere of influence. You you know, I I think I'm convinced in my mind, I people could disagree with me, but economic might always gives you influence in a bigger way as well. And it could be disproportionate to your economic capability, capacity, or whatever. But if you really talk about US, if you talk about China, their economic might is far bigger than what India is. Uh today, when you talk about US, US is close to about$27 trillion, if I get it right, in terms of uh GDP. Uh China is close to about, uh if I'm not wrong, about$14 trillion,$14,$15 trillion. So if that's a thing, so they're just they're just too big, or they're four times to seven times bigger than what India is. So India has to achieve that. I think we will also have to change that debate within ourselves internally as well. Yes, we are the fourth largest economy in the world. There is no doubt about it, like fourth or the fifth largest howsoever it is, saying that we are the fourth largest, but we have to say that when will we be the fourth largest from a per capita income point of view? That is going to be important. When we do that, then the sphere of influence will be of a different magnitude than anything else. But from a geopolitics uh point of view, I think India also sits in a fairly difficult neighborhood. And that's thanks to the British for creating that mess, without a doubt. And I I think you will accept that point from with all humility per se. But uh when we really talk about it, like the neighborhood is fairly cost. We need to find a way that we need to remove this caustic situation wherein all countries are able to work together. When you talk about China as a sphere of influence, you know, like China's growth story itself is because their neighborhood was very calm. They've always had that. Of course, barring the Taiwan issue, if you really look at Japan, Korea, they were they were pockets of excellence, and that is where they were able to emerge. India will also have to find that way wherein we are able to emerge together. But having said that, I think there is a clear view that India could be having a huge influence on the global south. Because at the end of the day, when you talk from a developmental perspective, even if India is just the fourth largest, fairly low down on per capita income, but very high on uh the overall GDP. But India's the influence is going to be driven by the fact in terms of what kind of solutions we are giving to the world. There are some unique solutions that have happened or come out of India in the last few years. Say something like the uh UPI that has happened, universal person uh what I call payment uh thing that has happened, the programs like Jandan Adaar Mobile, they have been very, very powerful programs which are getting replicated across the world. Uh but I think when you talk about influence and the world over, uh the question here is the what disturbs me is not about what is happening. I think what disturbs me is in terms of like the way we have always thought about the global order. That seems to be collapsing. That seems to be just dying down. I think the world needs to respect each other far more than what we are really doing now. I think this whole hunger for land and annexation of land, it sometimes seems that we are getting into a conversation of the Middle Ages, uh, wherein everybody just wanted to annex land. Come on, like today we have to just find a way to communicate, be good friends, just talk to people, communicate, travel, understand, build together. But why is it that we are not doing it? And that is, and I think this is all driven by this whole absolute arrogance of us as humans that is there. And in fact, to your prior climate question as well. I think this is driven, uh, and you you've had uh this conversation with people, or there are people who've said drill, baby, drill. And when you talk about those sort of things, I think this is driven by this arrogant view that we are a very superior species without realizing that you're gonna go extinct one day. I think it is better that we all live together. It's it's bound to happen. We we are going to be a defunct species in a few hundred million thousand years, maybe a million years. It has happened across the world. 99% of the species have died down in the world since its uh creation. We are also going to exit. But let's be respectful, let's respect nature, let's build it up together, let's live together.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

What a sobering call to humility from humanity in general and the British in particular. And I fully accept that being British involves wherever I go in the world, there's someone I need to apologize to for what we've done in the past. This is terrific. Before you go, every guest has to give me a prediction. It can be about anything you like, but give me a prediction, one that can be tested, one we can falsify or celebrate.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

What you can celebrate or what what we can actually uh prove?

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Celebrate no celebrate if you get it right or not, or come and laugh at you if you get it wrong. Something falsifiable.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

Okay. So I I think from a developmental perspective, I think uh if you really look at it, I think people will realize in the next five to ten years that what has happened in the last decade or so from a populistic authoritarian point of view, they will realize that this is how wrong it is. We are going through a certain cycle, and I think we are we are we are going through a cycle of point in time which was there in the 90s, the rise of Hitler and the rise of a certain set of ideas. We are seeing that happen in the world. I'm not naming leaders here, so your guess is as good as mine, but people will realize that how wrong it was. And people will start to go back to the world order or the uh what do you call the way things used to happen. They will want to actually take that. But of course, it is gonna take a lot a lot of time to rebuild, but that is gonna happen. And the second uh thing that I would like to say that India is gonna win the World Cup. Uh and uh Itland is not. So that that's what it is gonna be.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

Well, there we go. We've got one slightly longer term that sounds very, very exciting and one shorter term, very testable, very falsifiable, and I hope you're wrong about it. I mean, it's been always a pleasure. It's been a delight talking today. Thank you so much uh for joining us.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

Thank you, ma.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

Thank you everyone for for watching and listening today. And we'll be back again next week for another Beyond GDP, the social progress podcast.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Bye-bye. Hammett, thank you so much. We believe in a world where everyone can reach their full potential. The social progress imperative is building that future. More inclusive and sustainable, one community at a time. Support our work. Donate today at socialprogress.org backslash donate now.