The Resilience of Pakistan’s Social Progress Amid Crises

How is Pakistan quietly changing from within? With a population of 250 million and positioned at the crossroads of South Asia and the Middle East, Pakistan's social and economic progress significantly influences regional stability and global growth. 

Host Michael Green sits down with development economist Sheheryar Khan (University of Bari and Researcher at the Social Progress Imperative) to look beyond traditional economic metrics and assess the true state of social progress in Pakistan.  In the interview, we challenge common narratives about Pakistan and share insights into real progress amid adversity. 

Pakistan's current social progress ranking is 142nd out of 171 countries, comparable to Nigeria or Malawi. Its economic resources have yet to fully translate into quality-of-life improvements for its citizens. Over the past 15 years, Pakistan's social progress has grown modestly, about 5 points on the Social Progress Index, but stagnation since 2019 signals ongoing challenges.

Michael and Shahreya discuss: 

• How Pakistan’s diversity, a strength and a challenge, requires innovative approaches for progress to truly take hold.
• The importance of addressing regional disparities between urban centers like Islamabad and rural provinces.
• The gap between basic primary school funding and higher education success.
• Why local community cohesion keeps daily life remarkably safe despite national security reputations.w
• The true state of rights, inclusion and environmental quality in the country. 
• How a special income support program, a massive digitalization push, and a solar energy transition are quietly improving nutrition, basic healthcare, and housing.

While Pakistan's social progress has been uneven and beset by setbacks, it also possesses deep resilience and immense potential. This episode is perfect for policymakers, development enthusiasts, and anyone curious about the stories behind a nation in transition. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome to Beyond GDP, the social progress podcast. And today we're going to be talking about a very important country, and a country that is important because it's big, so it matters to the whole global development agenda, but also very important geopolitically. Of course, I'm talking about Pakistan. It's a country that's of 250 million people. So if we're going to get anywhere near sustainable development goals or whatever comes afterwards, we've got to succeed in Pakistan. And obviously Pakistan sits in this very particular position where it's it's at the crossroads of South Asia and then the Middle East. And indeed, I noticed recently that the Pakistan has been migrated from South Asia to Middle East by the World Bank. So maybe that's one we'll actually talk about a bit later. I'm delighted to discuss Pakistan with Cheherear Khan, who is um a development economist currently at the University of Bari. And I'm also glad to say, young. We like to have diversity on the uh on the Beyond GDP podcast. Uh and I must say we have rather been underrepresented by younger people. Um so, Sherry, we really appreciate you joining us here and bringing some youth and useful insight to this critical topic. Sherry, welcome.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

Thank you, Michael. Thank you for inviting me to this podcast, and it's a pleasure for me to be here today with you, Beyond GDP.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

And obviously, with full disclosure, um Sherry is also doing some excellent work with us on the Social Progress Index. So he's versed in the language of Social Progress Index, and that's the lens through which we're going to look at Pakistan's story. So if we look at Pakistan, I mean, yeah, it's it's not the greatest story. Pakistan ranks 142nd in the world on social progress. Um, that's just about the same level as Nigeria. It's 17 places behind Bangladesh, it's 33 places behind India. On GDP, it does a little bit better, 125th place in the world. That's a GDP per capita, about $5,500 a year. So again, it's so it's doing better economically than it is on social progress. It's not a significant effect, but it doesn't seem to be doing the best job of turning its economic resources into real quality of life. And also it's its progress in the last 15 years has been, I think it's best to say, modest. Uh, Pakistan has improved by about five points on the social progress index, which isn't nothing, but it's not the same level as the countries that are doing very well. And also it's sort of stagnated since about 2019. We've seen this flatten flattening out. So it's part of this story of uh slowing social progress globally. And it's also dropped about five places in the rankings over this time. Not catastrophic, but it's sort of a general sense of underperformance. So, Sherry, I mean, maybe that's where we should start. I mean, if if I give you that that that pen portrait of data, um, does that reflect the country that you know?

SPEAKER_02 3:07

Yes, actually, what we see in the data and the uh the development of the social progress index from 2011 to 2019 for the five points, I think it's pretty much visible. But when we see the decline after 2019, it's also visible, actually, because I was I was a bachelor's student at that time in the capital, and I was seeing it every day. In 2019, there was this political crisis coming in along with COVID-19. So during COVID-19, uh everything was closed down. There was there were smart lockdowns by by the then prime prime minister, and it was actually helping the local people to earn money in the in the local context. But I think it was also uh because since the economy wasn't that good and was it wasn't that strong to accept that COVID shock, I think many people were actually losing jobs, losing businesses. And since then, when we moved uh forward from the COVID-19 shock, in 2022, Pakistan is also one of the most vulnerable countries to climate shocks. So in 2022, Pakistan faced one of the worst floods in its history. I think nearly 2,000 people died, 30 billion dollars was lost to the GDP. And after we recovered from that, there was another flood in 2025. So what we did good in three years, everything was washed away back after three years in 2025. So I think what the SPI index reflects is actually what we see daily in the in the lives here in Pakistan. But at the same time, if we look at regional disparities within within the country, so the life in Islamabad is actually very good. But what affected the social progress index in in Tier Sin, which is the southmost province of the country, because when the river flows from the north, it hits the southern parts of the country, and that's the place where there is the most uh food food growth and agriculture where everything happens there. So I think it was um one of the shocks to the the economy. But at the same time, when you look at the region differences, I think Islamabad wasn't affected, Lahore wasn't affected, the cities, the urban centers weren't affected, and I think the quality of life in those cities is actually very good. Then the people or the majority of the population which is under the middle class and lower middle class or the poor where they live, I think they were the most affected by that shock. And that's what counts as an aggregate to SPI, which is also pulling down the numbers. But I think if you look at the general population at all, I think the numbers should also be much worse than what they are right now. It is good in the cities because if you look at the suppose there's a woman in in Islamabad, I think the distance between her and a woman in the interior parts of the country is much larger than a woman in Islamabad and a woman in London. So I think there's this regional problem happening also.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

Yes, I remember telling a um uh a Pakistani friend of mine that I'd visited Islam I'd visited Pakistan and they said, Where have you been? I said, Islamabad. And they said, You haven't been to Pakistan. Um so it's it's very, very distinct. But also you say there's that urban and rural. So I mean, unfortunately, I wish we did. I would love, I'd love to be able to do something to break down that sub-national picture in Pakistan. We haven't done that yet. If anyone would like to support SBI to build a regional uh social progress index for Pakistan, please do let me know. Um good. And I think also, I mean, that point about the shocks is very important that you know Pakistan does is vulnerable to some of these external shocks, as you say, which are getting worse with climate change. Um, and that's sort of very difficult as well. Um, let's let's break this down into where Pakistan is doing well and not where it's doing not so well. And I think if we look in the data, we see there are things where Pakistan's doing okay. So nutrition and medical care, it's 119th in the world, water and sanitation 125th, housing 118th. And in all of those areas, we've actually seen decent improvement over the last 15 years. So there's a few, there's some areas where Pakistan is doing well and getting is is making progress. I suppose the question I would ask you, Sherry, is why? What's driving it? Is this about um effective government programs, uh, or is this more about the actions of private actors? Because I know there's a very big and active charitable sector in Pakistan. What's driving those improvements in those aspects of those basic aspects of social progress?

SPEAKER_02 7:38

So basically, both private and public both are working hard for this development in the grassroots levels of the country. So the best flagship program of the government of Pakistan is the Bainazid Income Support Program, which the government is actively funding through the through the budgets, and they also increase the budget for it by 17% more in this fiscal year. So it is uh it is giving unconditional cash transfers to the poor households in Pakistan unconditionally, and it is paid to them portedly. And starting from July 2026, now it is being digitalized. So then it is removing the corruption perception in between because there was a lot of leakages in between that. So the government is doing that. Along with in this program, they're also giving an intervention to the families of the poor who send their children to school, and they would be giving them extra money. So it is also working, and now 12 million children are actually going to school because there are primary schools, there are secondary schools, they are free, the education is free, they are fit giving free books, free uh uniforms. But the problem here was that the the the restriction was from the demand side. So people weren't sending their kids to school. So now the government is trying from this perspective, from this program, to send uh uh the children to school. At the same time, if we look at the basic health and uh the reduction in child stunting and maternal mortality in Pakistan, it was actually the the program of lady health workers because most of the mortality was happening in rural Pakistan and they didn't know that they had really little access to knowledge and information. So the government sent nearly 100,000 female workers inside to those rural areas to educate and let the people, the the mothers and the women know there how to uh reduce maternal mortality, how to how to eat healthy, and it actually helped. It reduced child stunting in uh in children and also reduced maternal mortality in in those parts. But at the same time, there's also a big charitable sector. So cancer hospitals in Pakistan are nearly 75% free. So every person gets free cancer treatment in Pakistan. The government has also given health insurances. So if I go to a local, since actually since um health and education are uh a provincial matter, it has been that the power has been given to provinces, so every provincial government gave health cards to the citizens, to their to the residents there. So I got a health card, and when I go to the hospital here, I get free treatment here. So it was from the government. And at the same time, there are emergency services. So you call 1122 and there will be rescue ambulances coming to get you for free from the government, but at the same time, there is these ED ambulances, which is one of the world's largest private ambulances uh network in the in the world. So it is also free. So you either you call 112 or either you call 115, an ambulance will arrive at your doorstep anytime, anywhere. So it it is helping the scores to go up. At the same time, when you look at housing, so it it was it was in the news that solarization in Pakistan has uh hit has been a boom. So and it's true because solars were really cheap. They were coming from China, China was in overproduction, the government gave tax reliefs on there, there was no general sales tax on solars, and people were buying solars. And now, when you go on top of my house and you go look around, everyone has a solar and they're selling it back to the national grid. So the electricity bills are currently at zero, but at the same time, people are also in the rural areas, people are also stealing electricity. So then they do have access to electricity, but the government shut down electricity to cover the losses. So in house in housing and electricity, that is what is happening. And um yeah, apart from uh apart from that, and uh regarding housing and cooking inside the house and pollution, so Pakistan also has uh one of the largest uh gas fields, and they have given connections to every house in the in urban areas at least. So I think that's that's what's encouraging healthy lifestyles inside the housing in urban areas at least. It's totally different in rural areas. I I'm not saying that rural areas good, it's totally different. I still see people cooking with wood and biomass, but at the same time, there is also this other society, a big regional disparity in Pakistan, which is doing really good at the same

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SPEAKER_02 12:07

time.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

I mean, this is great to hear. I mean, the the you know, progress often happens quietly and unnoticed. And some of these improvements across some of these areas of shelter

(Cont.) The Resilience of Pakistan’s Social Progress Amid Crises

SPEAKER_01 12:47

and education and and then health, you know, that there have been big improvements in schools for Pakistan, and that's maybe a story that doesn't always get told so much. Um, I want to talk a bit about just a bit about education though, because education is a bit strange, because Pakistan's overall ranking on education actually isn't great, and I think it actually shows up as being a weakness in Pakistan's social progress scorecard, 153rd in the world. But I think you were saying, I mean, what we also see is there's been quite a large improvement here in the last few years. So it's still not where it should be, but you think the trajections, the trajectory is positive on school education in Pakistan?

SPEAKER_02 13:26

Yes, because uh regarding school education, I think the government is putting in money, international organizations are putting in money, like a lot of money, and there are schools, children go to the school, but I think what matters the most is the quality of education they're getting. I think there's a there is a lot of many primary schools which don't have any students, or many primary schools which don't have any teachers. So I think the the access to education for students is actually increasing, but what they're learning at when the when a child is in fifth grade or sixth grade, I think uh one of the surveys I read only 10% of the students actually can read or write in grade two or grade three. So I think that's what's uh happening inside the country. And it there's also like a recent example. I was standing in the in the market at parking a car, and a kid came. He wanted to ask for some money, so he was begging for some money, and I told him, Well, you you're not doing anything, but at least are you studying? And he said, Yes, I am studying. Which grade are you? And he said, I'm in fifth grade. I said, Okay, I'll give you money, but if you can say A to Z. And he said, He said, He said, I actually don't know how to do a uh say A B C. I was like, Are you in fifth grade? But he said he tells me the teacher doesn't come, he doesn't teach us anything. So I think that's what's that's what's driving the the low scores in Pakistan. And I think that's one of the biggest problems of governance and administrative pressures because administration should be better. At the same time, the government they passed a big budget for education, and you will see big numbers like 700 billion rupees for education in one province, 400 billion rupees in another province. At the same time, out of those 400 billion, 380 billion are going to payrolls and uh maintaining and paying for electricity fees, but only 20 billion is going to development of schools and children. So that's what's lacking. But and despite that, if international communities are putting in money into the economy, uh into Pakistan for schooling, I think if the government is not putting in enough money into the system, and the domestic budget are being cut because also with the IMF now, they're cutting budgets to get this that fiscal gap. And what the governments are doing are they are cutting down education budgets first. Despite the country declaring an education emergency last year, I think, they and they said like we're gonna reach by education spending by 4% of GDP by 2029, the education spending in this year's GDP was actually down from 1.5% to 0.8%. So this what they're gonna do and what they're actually doing. So there's like a mismatch between that. And I think when that's solved, I think education will be at the primary base level will be good. But when you look at the top level, tertiary education of universities, it's a different story. Universities are getting a lot of money and they are they are doing good on humas rankings, they are producing good researchers, because the money going to universities is actually being spent on the universities. But at the grassroots levels, that's the big problem.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

I was very struck by this. I mean, on higher education, Pakistan is 110th in the world. There's a few issues around um academic freedom and women's representation in higher education. But as you say, when it comes to quality education and also sort of the productivity of the universities, the citable documents, it's actually very strong. That's the strength. So you've got that mismatch between basic education and advanced education. I think, as you said, it's actually about revealed preference. It's very easy to declare an education emergency, but the test is when you have to make a choice about your spending priorities. And it's interesting that Pakistan has weighed more towards advanced than basic education. One to watch, I think, there. Um I want to talk about something else which now actually really surprised me the data was actually how well Pakistan did on safety. I mean, let's be fair, Pakistan does have a, you know, um uh a reputational issue on this. I mean, we can't play, I can't come on tour and watch England play cricket in Pakistan because it's, you know, people that won't tour there anymore. So safety is an issue, but it's in Pakistan ranks 95th in the world on our measure of safety, which covers violence, theft, pro traffic accidents. Hasn't improved a lot in the last 15 years, but it still does, you know, pretty reasonably well. Is that does that reflect what you see in life in Pakistan, that safety is not too bad?

SPEAKER_02 17:58

Yes, exactly. Uh I mean uh if I've living as a daily uh in a daily life in Pakistan, I think I don't see anything. It's like a normal life living the way I spend my life in Europe. I think the the way I'm living as safe as here in Pakistan. And I think one of the reasons of that is that people know each other a lot. So there's this sense of community. I know my neighbors, they know me. I go to the market, everybody knows me, everybody knows my father. So when wherever I go, I I feel kind of safe around different people. So I think in the same way, people don't commit crime that often because if they commit a crime, they know that the people I'm committing the crime against is actually someone I know from somewhere. Maybe he knows my friend, and maybe he knows my my my family member. The crime and the the safety it's high that at that way. But at the same time, if you look at the national security, and uh so in uh in that sense, yes, the national security has improved a lot. And uh and what the government has done and the military has done, they have isolated the conflict zones around the border and the cities. So the cities are actually heavily guarded. So there are safe city cameras and they see every movement you do, and at the same time, uh uh whenever you enter enter Islamabad, you will be scanned. So the cars will be scanned, you will be scanned. So you you can actually do nothing in Islamabad, or maybe in every major city of Pakistan, because there there are police checkposts everywhere. So there's like the sense of safety in in there. But but at the same time, there's also this uh it it it's not often to get mugged in Pakistan in in a city inside an urban population or get get your phone stolen. But it was really common in Karachi. So Karachi was one of the outliers of Pakistan. So and it was also one of uh we we people made a joke out of it. It turned into a national meme. Whenever you go to Karachi, just don't take your phone because it won't be there the next day. Somebody's gonna take it anyway. And then you know they were there were target killings uh happening before 2016 or 15, and one day the military decided to do a grand operation in Karachi and it cleared everything up. From that day, it was a two-night operation, it was on the news. I was sitting, and they was like, the the military has just cleared Karachi from everyone. And since that day, Karachi has dropped from being one of the most dangerous cities to uh a good city to live in.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

And the and I mean the Pakistani army does have the reputation of being the most effective organization in the country. So uh they did they got the job done there. Um the one other one that surprised me in the data, but in a different way, was actually um that the score for Pakistan on information and communications wasn't great. And in terms of internet access, mobile phone access. Again, I think of Pakistan as being this very connected country. Um so I was surprised that actually compared to other countries of similar levels of development, the scores were a bit low there. I mean, is that a urban-rural difference? What's going on there?

SPEAKER_02 21:00

It is kind of an urban-rural difference, but it is also a difference of government taxes. So the first thing in urban Pakistan is actually extremely connected. So there are fiber internet connections and it's really far fast. So internet doesn't drop like in any other place in urban communities. But at the same time, there's a massive tax by the Pakistan telecommunication authorities on the use of phones. So if I have bought a phone for 800 euros, I have to pay the government an extra 500 euros tax to use that phone in Pakistan. Otherwise, it's just uh it's just a phone for use for cameras. So there's a speedy attacks on phones, and now it was discussed during this budget speech in the in the in the parliament that this should be removed because it is restricting the access to use of phones in Pakistan. Because the phones are extremely expensive. The phone you can get for 1,000 euros outside Pakistan is the one you can get here for 2,000 euros. It's double the price. An Apple iPhone is extremely expensive in Pakistan. So people get the non-PTA version, which is actually illegally smuggled through some source and then bought inside the country. So I think extremely high taxes is actually what's uh reducing the phone use usage. But at the same time, uh, if you look at the local culture of Pakistan, uh so there's a big cultural diversity. So Punjab has a different culture, KP has a different culture, and KP, the KPATunpa, which is the the bordering uh province with Afghanistan, those people are more conservative. So They are more conservative under the woman and they don't let them use their phones most easily. So if the government says that yes, there's access to internet everywhere, there's household internet connections are 80% in Pakistan household connections. But if there are five people living inside the house and they have one phone because their mother don't let their daughters to use the phone, so it is reducing the uh the phone usage in Pakistan. So I think that's one of the that's one of the reasons why the scores of access to information is low. But also, um, people are on social media. There are a lot of Pakistanis on social media and it's they're really vocal about it. And it was also used by the former Prime Minister, Imran Khan, who's also a cricketer. He used Twitter to engage his followers. So when the government knew that he's building a momentum, they they blocked Twitter in Pakistan for 15 months straight. There was no access to Twitter. Whenever they were holding online meetings, uh online gatherings, they would cut down the internet connections. Internet speeds would go down, VPNs were blocked. In that sense, yes, there are restrictions and uh it is reducing the use access to usage of in information in Pakistan.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Well, that's actually a nice segue into the into like the the big issue for Pakistan, which is around rights and inclusion. Um Pakistan's ranks 135th in the world on rights, its score has gone backwards since 2011. Then inclusion, Pakistan ranks um you know 164th in the world out of 171 countries, and again has gone backwards by nearly five points. So these are problem areas. Perhaps, Sherry, you can just sort of contextualize it with what's been going on a bit politically within the country and tell us why what's been driving some of these changes and what are the issues around rights and inclusion.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

So uh since 2011, the situation has declined, but if you if you look at the female participation in the economy, it's only 21%. So only 21% of the women are employed. Because usually, if you look at different uh more conservative societies of Pakistan, so on the political front, they they are passing laws that yes, don't do underage marriages. The underage marriage law was just uh announced last year, and before that, everything was happening. So the woman participation is low in the economy. Despite that, we also had a woman prime minister, and the current chief minister of Punjab is a woman. So there is inclusion at the elite level, the upper level, but the inclusion is far, far low at the bottom level, uh at the rural uh level. It it can be because of uh cultural issues, cultural stigmas. People don't want their daughters to go out, engage with people because it's it's part of the culture. It's uh just a more conservative part of the country. But also, if we look at the religious perspective of it, so yes, the prime minister and uh the president of Pakistan cannot be a non-Muslim. So it's a problem for inclusion. But also they are given a special seats in the parliament. So they have a special representation in the parliament. Also, for women, they have 17% representation in the parliament. No matter what if they win the election or not, there will be 17% seats reserved for the women in the parliament. So in that sense, the inclusion is there, but also uh regarding uh other religious uh freedom in Pakistan, I think I don't see religious uh extremism in normal um uh in normal life here in Pakistan because I I have friends from who are Hindu in Pakistan, I have friends who are Christians in Pakistan, I have friends who are the Shia Muslims, who are the Sunni Muslims, so I have friends everywhere, and they do live together and celebrate their festivals together.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Yeah, yeah, there's some major specific issues around minorities and definition, etc. So um uh let's uh turn on to the final one, which is I suppose the less discussed problem of Pakistan, which is actually a very big one, is around the environment. Now, obviously there's there's a whole huge set of issues around the whole the um the water supply for the whole region, and there's a lot of complex politics around that. Um, that actually some quite big threats to some of the regions of Pakistan uh with with um water supplies running out, etc. But then there's also the kind of the more localized things around particulate air pollution, lead pollution, etc. And it is striking that you know Pakistan does skin score really badly on environmental quality. And what we also tend to see is that countries' environmental performance deteriorates as they as they develop. So if there's a kind of there's a there's a whole environmental catastrophe that's waiting for Pakistan. Now, now Pakistan is a victim of a global climate crisis that is generating this extreme weather, but there's also a localized issue around the environment that Pakistan is making problems for itself with the environmental issues. Is there any effort to try and tackle these issues?

SPEAKER_02 27:37

I think uh environment in Pakistan is actually a political issue because the politics is actually not surrounding the environment, because environment is not a direct effect. So people do not see the changes of climate directly into their lives. So what the government they do is they spend on uh construction of roads because people can see it and people feel happy about it because they're gonna get worth them in the next election. But working on the climate is actually another long-term investment for a government, and it changes with different governments. So the previous government, which came for Imran Khan, he was spending long-term in the environment. He was planting 10 billion trees, he called it a 10 billion free tsunami, he wanted to make 10 more renewable dams to generate clean electricity, but the dams are still not made and he's out of power. So he doesn't get the credit for that. And that's what's happening with the climate here right now in the country. Nobody's spending as much money on climate where they should. But the focus has increased since 2022 when the floods hit the local and both the elite and the non-elite of Pakistan. So when it the floods ruined everything, crops and houses, lands would ruin everything. They started thinking about it. So there's now a specific ministry for climate change and environment. So they're working towards it. And now 60% of Pakistan's energy is now renewable. But at the same time, the particle uh PM 2.5, it's extremely high. And I think Lahore, uh, which is bordering India, it is one of the highest in air qualities uh around the world. And it's because people, uh, the farmers, which is also Pakistan is also being uh restricted by poverty. So the farmers are actually poor, and when they wanna create the land to plant something new, they burn the oil crops. So they rise and it goes into the air, and it's a transboundary pollution. Uh Pakistan cannot solve the uh environmental issue uh without India, and India cannot solve the issue without Pakistan because it's strong strongly. Both of the people burn crops and it's affecting both the countries simultaneously. But the government is now spending uh some money on uh smoke because Lahore is affected by extreme smoke, and uh in a study it says that if the people of Lahore are actually reducing their life expectancy by five years, taking that toxic gases inside. So the government is trying to spend money on it. They asked the United Arab Emirates to send them those uh feeder planes to make these artificial clouds and rain, but it it failed. Then they made small guns, so they spread water particles into the air, and they're trying their best at the moment, but it's a big issue, and I think it's needed a lot of investment, and that's the issue.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

Yeah, I mean, uh we we uh where I live in London, uh mayor's had a big push on this. And there was a lot of controversy, especially around you know um discouraging the use of older vehicles, but actually quite quickly, in a very short pace of time, the the air quality has improved, and we're already seeing the dividends in terms of health benefits for children with asthma and mortality from respiratory diseases. There's a really big payout in clean air, um, and it's one that actually crosses the divide from rich and poor alike. So maybe if um, you know, one of the issues in Pakistan is always about how do you get the elites on board with a programme. Maybe if it's going to help the elites live healthier lives, maybe they'll get behind some of the reforms. Um, one final question. This is a slightly unfair question, but um how optimistic do you feel about Pakistan's progress? So it's not been a great 15 years. Some good things happening, some not so good. There's always it always feels that you know Pakistan isn't fulfilling its potential. There's so much, it's just such a vibrant country. The other thing, as you alluded to, is this very strong sense of community. It's a very cohesive place in a lot of ways, notwithstanding some of the issues around minorities. Um, do you think Pakistan can unleash its potential in the next 15 years?

SPEAKER_02 31:45

Um, not in the next 15 years. I think one of the biggest problems is education, basic education. And I think a child uh going to school today will go towards university in 16 years. So I think to go through that phase and creating two new generations, I think it will take 20 to 30 years, but it will get better because Pakistan has a really young population. And I think um I think many all the people are being more tolerant. The younger population is really different than what their elders are. So uh my grandfather was a completely different person than what I am. He was more conservative than what I am, and that's what I see in also rural people of Pakistan. The rural people who are mostly on TikTok, on YouTube, on Instagram, they see everything. And I think they're trying to accept uh the fact, like, okay, they're also right, these people are also right. And um, because uh I read somewhere that if you travel to a lot of countries, a lot of places, and you see a lot of different dimensions and different ways of how things are done the right way, you stop judging people. And when when we stop judging people, because every way you know when you see the people and you're like, okay, this is also one of the ways, which is the right way. It could be the right way. So I think Pakistan has a potential, it has a big potential, and it's a very patriotic nation. There there are problems, there are disagreements between different communities and different cultures, but I think they will settle it down. Um, they are still getting some um international recognition now uh regarding dropping the war between Iran and the US, and people are really happy about it, and uh there people inside the country are feeling optimistic right now. But after the 26th uh constitutional amendment, I think people are feeling a bit uh uh democratically vacuumed because it has reduced the democratic space for people inside the country. So, yes, um people are frustrated, but at the same time, they don't have any time to go out and protest. Because uh somebody once said that Pakistan has constitutionalized freedom of speech, but there is no way of freedom after speech. So constitutionally, everything is said. There are laws, there are frameworks, the the courts are working, everybody's working, every person has an opportunity from the constitution. So that is one of the uh the highlights of the country. And I think if we build on that base, on that constitution and the legal frameworks, I think we could be uh one of one of the best countries of the world. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

Let's let's look forward to that. Um, Sherry Akarn, thank you so much for joining us uh on the podcast. And I've learned a huge amount. Thank you so much for joining us. And thank you to those who are listening. Thank you for joining us. Do please like and subscribe, and we'll be back again for another episode talking about big global themes, important global countries very soon. Goodbye.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

If you want to learn more about going beyond GDP, Social Progress Imperative has the tools to help you. Our flagship, Global Social Progress Index, covers 170 countries with data going back to 2011. Through the 57 different indicators, the Global Social Progress Index gives you a rigorous and comprehensive assessment of how countries are performing on real quality of life. For information on all of these tools, go to our website at socialprogress.org.