Episode 234: Do Not Disclose

"What if someone is able to figure out a way to use your technology in 10 years and they made all the money in the world?"

It's not everyday that you get to pick the brain of a patent attorney, but do you know the ins and outs of what they do? Austin will walk you through the entire process, but also let you know that engineering school is where it all started for him.

So how did a smoke detection system and wireless doorbells bring us to where we are today?

Tune in to episode 234 as Austin explains how important names are for products, breaks down the longevity of patents and much more!

For more information:

Website: https://bondererpatents.com/
Instagram: @austin_the_patent_attorney
LinkedIn: Austin Bonderer
YouTube: ⁨@AustinThePatentAttorney⁩
Facebook: The Law Office of Austin Bonderer, Patent Attorney 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I'm sure we've all had a point in our life where we've come up with an idea, a thought, an invention, and we've just been so excited to tell somebody, a friend, a family member, somebody who may even be unrelated to it all. But when speaking in the patent space, specifically when talking to lawyers, when talking to examiners, we should be very careful with that. Why? Disclosure kills patents. Austin will get into all that and more in today's episode, including what is the difference between copyright, trademark, and patent. But also he'll tell you his story into how coming back into things in the 90s is a lot different than how your path may be today. And on top of that, he'll even tell you just some common things to look for when thinking you may need a patent versus a trademark versus even copyright. And then even to take it a step further, he'll tell you some of the cool things that he's been able to come across in his journey as a patent attorney. But keep in mind now, if you ever see him in a courtroom, call for help because it should not be the case. So without further ado, enjoy episode 234. Do not disclose. So, you know, we don't like to rush time, we don't want to push things forward, but we are welcoming it with July with open arms. It's something that we're also doing, we're welcoming Austin with open arms as well. Again, as y'all told y'all, down to business is back up and running. We're here, we're producing, we're dropping once a week now, we're staying consistent, so we're gonna make that just happen. So greatly appreciate Austin for taking the time to join us today for being interested in and coming on the show for an interview. And I'm really, really, really excited to talk to him because as I was telling him before, his area of expertise is not my area of expertise whatsoever. So he will definitely be able to provide some insight, maybe even talk about his journey and what we could be doing as business owners, entrepreneurs, and creators. So before we get into all things, Austin, how are you? How's everything on your end? Doing great. Like you said, it's June and it's getting hot.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

So that's kind of try to stay cool, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

I think for as much as I was complaining about the winter, I'm starting to do the same for the summer now, but I think we knew what the trade-off was. We were gonna have a pretty cold and frigid winter, depending on where you were, me being DC. But uh, and now this the summer is definitely unforgiving. I came home from Philly on Sunday and I thought Philly was hot, but no, as soon as I stepped foot off that train, DC greeted me uh with some warmth as well. So so we are here. But all right, so look, I know we're gonna have a host of people tapping into this episode. I know we're gonna have some people from your side, I know we're gonna have some people from my side, and then we're arguably gonna have my favorite type of people, those who know nothing probably about either one of us, but they came across this episode in some capacity. So to bring everybody up to speed, to put everybody on the same page, can you just do two things for me? Can you one just tell me a little bit about yourself, and then just two, just tell me what brings you on the Down the Business podcast today?

SPEAKER_01 3:05

Well, I'm just uh uh, you know, I I'm a patent attorney, but I like to tell people I'm more of an engineer with a liquor, you know. I I you know, because if you see me in a courtroom, bring bail money, because I never I'm in trouble. I don't do any court, I don't do any of that stuff. I basically write term papers for other people, you know, patent applications, and then argues before the patent office. So I thought I'd come on today and you know, hopefully, you know, spread the word of patents and other intellectual property trademarks and stuff like that, and then how they're very they can help businesses protect their best.

SPEAKER_02 3:42

Okay, I like that. I am obviously only familiar with patents from I guess the perspective of inventions and just knowing that that's people with what's what they do to pretty much solidify to stamp it. So for you, for your earliest involvement with patents, with kind of getting into this industry and developing an interest and what it is that you do, where did that stem from? How did that come about?

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Well, that's kind of the thing. Like the people in moderation, like I'll say now, I get a lot of people in my DMs saying, head going to engineering school or you know, studying biology, and I want to become a patent attending, you know, my generation, we just kind of fell into it in reality. I mean, not a lot of people are like, I'm going to become a patent attorney. There were male engineers or scientists who eventually just kind of fell into it. And that's kind of what happened to me. Um, so very long story to try to make it short as possible. Basically, how I got interested in it is I uh was in engineering school and my thesis was upon an invention that I had. And I came across this idea because I grew up in southern Mississippi and my dad's house almost dead. So in the summertime in southern Mississippi, since I was a small one, I was the one who had to crawl in the attic because he was going to wire his own smoke detection system in his house. So come around 1999 when I'm about to graduate and have to do it with thesis, and I said, Hey, I have this idea for a smoke detection system. And that was the one those wireless doorbells first came out. I know you're too young to know about big stuff. So it was a thing. Like, oh my God, there's wireless doorbells. This is the coolest thing ever, right? So what I did was I rigged these two smoke detectors and these two wireless doorbells such that, like the idea being that you could make a mesh system in your home so that no one would ever have to crawl in an attic. You would have it where it would go up in response to smoke, it would send out an audible signal like normal, and then would send a wireless signal, which would then activate the one next to it. And then that would send out a wireless signal. And so eventually your whole house would be going off well, but even faster than what your traditional smoke detectors are doing. And that was the idea, that was my thesis. I filed a provisional patent application, worked at the University of Transport Patent uh Technology Trail Office, and was like, hey, I want to live here. You know, who doesn't want to live on a college campus? It is magic land. I mean, it's not real life. You know, like young man, you gotta go out and be better and learn more. So the at the time the patent office was hiring, I end up taking the job there and end up becoming a patent examiner.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Went to law school at night, and voila patent.

SPEAKER_02 6:30

The rest was history. I like that. Now, in order to, I I feel like we make so much sense out of how a lot of business owners, how a lot of entrepreneurs, how a lot of creators kind of came into what it is that they were doing, whether it be from just something that they no longer wanted to do anymore, solve a problem in interest maybe of someone else, maybe just falling into things, maybe even kind of a combination of everything. But I I love the idea when it could be something that you you were necessarily doing, whether it be considered conventional, whether it be considered unconventional, or if it's just the way that you know that you were taught was the easiest at the time, you were the smallest, so it just so happened, hey, we gotta we gotta get you up in that attic, unfortunately. But I love the idea that then you were able to realize what goes into that, what went with it, and then the wheels started turning, the brain started going, and then from there slowly but surely you just worked your way into what you're doing now, or just patents in general. I was doing some reading and I saw that you started as an examiner first, and I now see that you are an attorney. Now, with getting to be an attorney, like you said, you're not the one in court. You stay far away from that. Like he said, pay attention, y'all. We don't we don't need Austin in court. But to to go from pretty much examiner to an attorney, is that like a is it kind of like working your way up a totem poll? Is it just really an interest thing in what you want to do? Are there like steps to become an attorney, or if you go to school, if you get the necessarily qualifications and degrees, could you have just gone to that?

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Right. So really what it is is that you know, there are a lot of people who just go straight, you know, get their undergrad and so basically you have to have an engineering or a science background some amount of credits before and go to law school before you apply to be a patent attorney. In fact, you don't even have to have to go to school and you can become what's called a patent agent. And that means you're able to practice for the patent office and do anything a lawyer can do before the patent office. And that basically means you have to be an engineer or scientist, and then you miss the patent bar, but you hadn't you didn't have to go to law school. So yeah, patent agents and patent lawyers. Now, for me, like with a patent examiner, and then you become a patent attorney and you're not doing litigation or anything, you're just doing prosecution, which means getting patent before the USBTO, it's kind of the opposite side of the same coin. They're the attorneys are trying to get the patent and the examiners are examining them. So you're both working together, it's pretty much the same thing. I suggest that if you're really in wanting to be a good, you know, patent attorney, the patent all probably one of the better routes to go through. And the reason being is that when you examine patent applications versus writing them and learning how to do them that way, I mean, it takes you a long time to write a application. But to examine it, you have to examine sometimes two a day. So you end up seeing a lot more issues and a lot more nuanced situations in the law or in the practice than you would if you worked for a firm and you spent all your time writing patent applications. And then, you know, other people, if you want to go directly to the route of being a patent lead of being well experienced, you know, you know, these huge firms, and it's just kind of understood, they're gonna work you to the bone. You're going to pay your dues, it's like an ad school. But when you come out of there in like three or four years, you're either on a partnership track with that firm, or you can go to a firm or a more boutique firm, and but they know that you have been well trained and that you you can you know work there. You saw it out, let's just put it that way. But you've been put through the ringer, and those three gears are horrible, but you know, so it is the school, so is grad school. I mean, it it's all you know, never doing as easy generally.

SPEAKER_02 10:16

So I got you. Okay, so either way, you're gonna have to put the work in.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

It's just more so what path you want to go, or or maybe patent office is you know, being an examiner is a government job, so it's it's probably not as hard as the uh you know sweatshop firm that you're working at.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

So I got you. I'm with you. So I I guess too, in thinking about still the requirement of school, still going that route. You're to be in Mississippi, for me to be now in Washington, DC, if you let's just say you relocated, or let's just say I relocated, would I do you then have to get pretty much certified depending on where you are, or once you have once you become an attorney, are you just good to kind of practice, good to kind of write, good to kind of review wherever you are?

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Well, almost all practices of you have to be state uh certified. But that's a great thing being a patent attorney is that if you are a patent attorney, you can operate because uh it's a federal issue, and it even went up to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court said, hey, this is a federal issue, states can't stop you know attorneys from practicing in their state with being a member of their bar. Because if you move that, say you're a California bar attorney, you move to Virginia. You if you want to practice any kind of law in Virginia, you need to become a Virginia barred attorney. Um you know, the rules are a little weird. Like, are you a remote attorney that's practicing living in Virginia, but technically, you know, your office is in California, you know, this this stuff's that's out of my wheelhouse. That's that's not business. I don't have to worry about it. I do patents, I'm fine. Those guys might not figure it out. So uh, but there's a such thing as called unauthorized practice of law. So, yes, if you move to a different state, you generally have to take that bar or get waived into that bar.

SPEAKER_02 12:19

Understood. Understood. So it sounds like you really just got the the best out of both worlds in a sense. Like you don't it it doesn't really require you. Well, obviously, yes, it requires you to put the work in to do what's done. But this also kind of opens you up to just more possibilities, more places to work with, more people to work with. So I I like that too because I if if there were three words that I would probably put together, but they probably differ tremendously, and you're you're about to kind of even probably show me how, I would say patent, trademark, and I would say copyright. Those are things that I feel like whenever you are trying to, I just think of it as a stamp. Whenever you're trying to pretty much solidify whether it be an idea, a concept, a term, art, anything of the sort like that, those are in some form or fashion. If we drew a Venn diagram, it would probably fall into one of those three. Now, when you have patents versus trademarks versus copyrights, what should be used for what? Like what are the differences between those three?

SPEAKER_01 13:20

Okay, so copyrights, let's we're just gonna move that one offside. That it that is like songs, artwork, and those kind of things. The way it works in the US, you generally are uh you basically understood to get a copyright as soon as you cop uh as soon as you create something. If you wrote a song, you have a copyright on it. Now, there are things where you should all rights reserved on your website to protect your photos and this kind of stuff. However, excuse me, however, uh most of that most of those copyright issues are handled by entertainment attorney you can understand. Most of that's music. I mean, you know, fair sampling kind of stuff. Does it sound too much like this song? Those kind of things. So I gener I've never really worked with copyrights. I understand them to a certain extent, but I never really get too much advice on that. Um trademark is an identification of a source of good or service. So um, you know, McDonald's, you know, anywhere you go where you see McDonald's, the reason why it's got such a strong trademark is because any Mc any state you're in or any country you're in, you expect a certain level of service because that's McDonald's, right? It's an identification source of goods. Um, and there's no real time limit. So and the the thing that people kind of get confused, they're like, hey, I want to trademark something. I'm like, you get a trademark as soon as you enter commerce with a product service. What I do is help people federally register that trademark because federal federal registration gives you a lot more protection. It gives you like nationwide protection. So you'll see things like certain companies, even big companies, they'll just use a TM, and I'm sure you've seen it. What that means is it's they're claiming there's a trademark, but they're claiming a trademark under Tom Law. And you know, probably one of the biggest ones that don't have a registered trademark is American Airlines. And so this is something I warn my clients with a lot of times. Like when you name your product, you don't want to be merely descriptive. So why can't American Airlines get a registered trademark? Because it describes exactly what it is. And when you get a trademark, you kind of pull those words exacon so that no one else can use it. Now, could American Airlines prevent Delta from saying Delta is an American airline? No, because exactly what it is. So that's why when you want to develop a name for something, don't describe exactly what it is. That's death nail for so many uh trademark applications. And if you're doing common law, you know, it it you know you're just relying on some laws that make it just more difficult. Just build a brand around something, but don't get so descriptive that you're gonna have a hard time getting a federal registration on it. And then we have patents, which is your inventions. But guess what? We actually have types of patents. One is the one that most people think of as the utility patent, which is hey, this is my invention, it's a new idea. But the one that I don't think people have enough of is say design patents. So if you're spending all this money to put something to market, and you're like, I'm gonna put it on the shelf, it's not very expensive to get a design patent on that. And what that is, is it covers the exact design of your product. And definitely fairly easy to get because you know all designs tend to be a little different. But what it does is it prevents the knockoff from making something that looks exactly like yours. So the example I use is say that you came out with artistic little frog soap dish that you like and you know it's gonna sell a lot. So you you go get a design pattern on it. Well, that design pattern, it's not gonna stop people from making soap dishes. It's not gonna stop people from making soap dishes that look like little frogs. It's going to stop people from making soap dishes that look just like your frog. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:25

Some good game right there. I did not, I I didn't even think about that. When I guess you I guess naming is so interesting. And for the people who are like my down-to-business vets, as I call them, they know how I feel about names. They know that I love hearing like origin stories, how names came about, how people were able to get there. But that is so interesting when uh you want to be, I guess you want to be unique with your name, but you also want to be intentional with your name. But what could also kind of, you know, I never thought about that. They they literally are describing what they are or what they do or what it is. And so it's just like, you know, it kind of wow. I never wow, I I never really would have guessed that. So yeah, copyright. I feel like I felt the most comfortable about copyright. But yes, I'm very familiar with like the TM, the black letter that are kind of always above or very close and very small to something, but I didn't realize with trademarks some of the things that really went into it. So for obviously, we have some business owners listening, we have some entrepreneurs, we have some creatives, even maybe some inventors, all of the all of the above. At what point do people need a patent? Like, what do you when someone comes to you? Obviously, I I feel like you've had hits and misses. You've had some people come to you, okay. This is clearly on the lines for a patent. We need to get you going. Let's start, let's start drafting some things. And then you've had some other people maybe come to you and it's just like uh this could, but you need to kind of go here, here, here, here, here. And then I'm sure there were some that came to you and it was kind of just like, all right, like this doesn't really fall under the realm of a patent. So at what point in the journey of entrepreneurship, of business ownership, of creativity do people should people consider patents?

SPEAKER_01 19:02

That's you know, that's a $64,000 question. I mean, that is the tough one, right? Because, you know, you can go as early as soon as you have that idea. Right. And, you know, I used to work for this Fortune 100 world company, and we were on some cutting-edge nano tube technology. And we were so cutting edge that a lot of the patents that we were probably filing and doing, the commerciality of things that we were doing were probably 10 years out, but your patent is only good for 20 years from the data file. You see what I'm saying? So sometimes it's so far away, but you want to cover it in because you know, what if, you know, what if someone is able to figure out a way to use your technology in 10 years and they've made a golden in the world, right? Um and then, you know, a big problem sometimes is you come in and you spend all this money on a patent, and then it's like this isn't the idea that hit. I mean, you gotta be a little selective. If you got a bunch of types and you're trying to make your your, you know, at the end of the day, you're trying to make money. I mean, that's all this piece, right? So, you know, you come in, you want to get a patent, my clients come in and say, hey, you know, we'll do a prior art search, and that's where we go and we look and we see if there's some other inventions out there that would prevent you from getting patent. And they're like, Well, let's let's change something so we can get a patent. I'm like, look, don't ever change anything just to get the patent because at the end of the day, if it's not gonna sell, then what's the patent good for? You want to have a product that's gonna sell and then try to come with a patent. If you can't cover it with a patent, doesn't mean you can't sell it, and it doesn't mean you're not gonna make a lot of money doing it. I mean, look around your home. Look at the stuff we're working on right now: computers, microphones, uh, webcams.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

Do you really think there's a lot of patents covering this stuff? Most of that story run out.

SPEAKER_02 21:03

You even answer one of my follow-up questions. I was gonna talk about timeliness, but that makes sense. But now I have a follow-up to that follow-up. So, okay, you talked about 20 years. In 20 years, my patent is well, my patent is protected for 20 years. I love that. Let's do that. Okay. So hypothetically speaking, 20 years is up. Perhaps I'm not involved with that invention anymore. Perhaps I'm no longer here. Perhaps you know, but the possibilities could be a bit endless. But what happens if you don't renew that? Does your idea just become floating into the abyss again for anybody to kind of capitalize on? If if somebody was to try to capitalize on it, could you see previously what was patented by somebody else? Did that does that raise any red flags? What does that look like if after 20 years you choose not to renew?

SPEAKER_01 21:53

Well, there is no renewal. Setting a difference like trademarks can last forever, but because you still have the company's Still good, but one thing with patents, I mean trademarks is you use or you lose it. That's the standard rule. First one in use wins, or you use it or lose it. That's basically the you know the principle of trademark law. Now, patents the whole point is limited monopoly. You have a limited monopoly until it goes into the public domain. Once it hits 20 years or the patent expires, there's no legal way to extend that path. Okay. Now we get to another uh thing that all you know business owners and possible inventors need to know. Be quiet. Don't tell anybody until you tell until you talk to a patent attorney. If you think you have an idea, because disclosure kills patents. Because most countries have it where if you disclose it before you file for a patent application, you will not be able to apply for a patent. You have already given it to the public domain, and anyone can use it. You can't sue them, right? United States makes it live.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

They give you a year from your first public disclosure or first off sale. You know, black people don't rely on that.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Talk to an attorney first. I mean, but if you have, you know, talk to an attorney, maybe we can get that fixed and taken care of. But you know, you do have a time limit on there. It is, you know, it it will expire. But like I said, it's 20 years data filing. Once it expires, it's expired. Now, this is where we get into a little stuff because people get upset with pharmaceutical two companies. Because they seem how somehow seem to be able to extend the life patent. But that's not really what happens. So there was what they taught me back in the patent office like if you find a new use for an old item, you can patent that new use. So think about aspirin. Aspirin's been around forever, right? But when they discovered that aspirin can help treat heart attacks, you could have patented the use of aspirin to treat heart attacks. And that's what's happening with all these, you know, pharmaceutical right now, right? So you have the Botox. Botox was originally Botox. You can't patent Botox. That's I don't know if your you know, parents told you like if you ever look at a can and it's it's bent, don't don't do it because you don't know if it had Botox grown in it. Because it used to be like cans would bow out and you know that it went bad, right? That was Botox. But they came up, and the reason why they started using it was they wanted to basically people with sweaty palms. So you start you know you know injecting them with Botox. So first they patented the method for the treatment of sweaty palms with Botox, but then they realized, hey, get rid of wrinkles. So then they start patented the use of Botox to treat wrinkles. So even though Botox has been around, you know, it wasn't invented. I mean, it's been around. They just went out and got it and then harvested it and put it in a vial. But they were able to patent the new use. So that's how you're able in pharmaceutical companies. Another one would be Proscar, is a famous one. It was a drug to help prostate issues. But they realized that these guys were growing hair, so then they patented propecia. So the treatment of hair loss using the same drug that's been around for five or six years already, that's another five years. You see what I'm saying? So they piggyback it. So it's actually the chemical is older than 20 years, but the uses that they fit are are are newer.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

I told y'all this wasn't my wheelhouse, and and and Austin is just proving with every reply. Like, I I am not true to this at all. I'm very new to this. So this is no, this, this that's so interesting. I guess I didn't think about usability. And I didn't think about how that could kind of keep because even as you were talking, I was just like, well, I'm I was wondering about so many products that have been along for so long. But then I also kind of gave a second thought to those products, and I was just like, they didn't always, they may have come into the market or they may have come to our knowledge serving one thing. Like, as you said, our generation may look at Botox completely different than I promise if I called my little brother now and if I asked him about the can thing, he probably would have never heard that a day in his life. So it's so interesting that how things have evolved and adapted over the years, but have been, but that usability factor plays a big piece into that. So, okay, to back up a little bit, you spoke about one point disclosure. Do not disclose if you don't have to by any means. Now, I could imagine there are a few things that you probably shouldn't do when filing for your patent, when talking to lawyers and everything like that. So when people kind of come to you or just in the past and doing your research or your experience, what are some common mistakes that you've you've seen people make when filing for a patent?

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Well, it's not the final, it's always the point. It's the biggest mistake is look, you know, and I get it. Like I totally understand. I mean, I've done it, like, you know, I've been in things, I'm super excited about it. I mean, it might have to be other people might was boring, but I thought it was the coolest thing I've done. So, what do you want to do? It's like you want to tell me it's like your baby, you want to tell people about your baby. Look at my pretty baby, like, dude, don't show anyone your baby. If you really feel the need to talk to someone about it, call a patent attorney because that's a protected conversation, and then you can get it off your chest. Like, I finally told to get that off, right? You know, like that's kind of how it is. So it's just that gossip, like you just had to get it off to somebody, right? So uh, you know, that's that's kind of how that works. And so I tell people just call the attorney. They might even charge you, they might not, all that stuff. So um, and you know, and if you if you're in a business where you're you're likely to come up with a bunch of different things over the years, to have a good relationship with a patent attorney, uh, because then the more they know your business, the more they can spot the issue that you probably didn't see, or maybe the avenues that you need to protect. Um, I had a client who came to me after they worked with another special in trademarks, and you know, as soon as they explained to me their whole business, I was like, why don't you have trademarks in these areas? Because understand how trademarks work you can't have something in the same name, right, in the same product. So you could have Acme Oil Company and Acme Jewelry Company, because no one's going to confuse the two. But if you have like, you know, hair products and jewelry and kind of stuff, you know, they you can see some confusion and lap there. So, you know, if your attorney kind of knows your business and your avenues and where you're going and what you want to do, they can help guide you and find maybe the areas that you're you're not protected in, and then hopefully get you that protection that will help you future.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

Makes sense. Makes sense. Yeah, we uh you know sometimes you just get so excited and you just never know what that, but you never know really what that conversation could do or or could hinder, depending on that. So I didn't I didn't I didn't think about that. But look, like they said, y'all, call a lawyer. And and lawyers are are very useful in in a lot of different circumstances, y'all, even with patents. So just keep that in mind. But also, I kind of want to also go a step further because you you mentioned it a little earlier, but not like not to answer this question. How different is the process domestically versus internationally? Like, I I could imagine that obviously for the United States, you're well versed with what to do, how to work it, multiple multitude of clients kind of that you've helped and assisted in that practice. When it comes to internationally recognized patents, does that differ a lot?

SPEAKER_01 29:44

Well, there's not really any, there's not a true international patent. It's you have jurisdictions. All patents are local. You have a U.S. patent, it protects the United States, it doesn't do anything in Mexico. Excuse me. Um, so you know, EU, China, there's all this stuff. So I, you know, when I deal with my inventors, they're generally medium to small size businesses and independent inventors. And if they want overseas, it's mainly to protect manufacturing. Because trying to get a patent in the EU is a pain. It is very difficult. And they're they don't like patents, they don't want to give you a patent, they make it very hard. You know, everything's got to be verbatim, so you've got to write these huge applications and hope that you can find some verbiage if you need it in the future. Um, so I tell them, like, look, first things first, if you got an idea and you can't make enough money on the United States on your first patent idea, then you want to make enough money anyway. Right. So let you know, first one, let's not, I mean, don't be feel like you're you need to it. But if you feel the need, let's figure out where it's manufactured. Because think of it this way: like Germany, you're like, hey, if you own all the manufacturing rights and say it's manufactured in China, you own all those manufacturers, you have a patent there and you can protect it there. You know, someone in Germany can't go to China, hopefully, and get it made. You can try to adopt them there, so they have to move to a more expensive place to manufacture, and you can still have a competitive advantage in Germany versus this person because you were able to control them in the main term. I mean, if any of you people, if anybody is a Dune fan like myself, he who controls us controls the universe, and that's basically the same thing. He who controls the manufacturing controls everywhere, and the way our global economy is if you nail those countries down, you have a competitive edge.

SPEAKER_02 31:50

Look, man, sometimes you just got to turn on an episode or down the business. You could just learn so much, you could you could just get so many things. I you know, as I said, when I was just doing my research and and just reading on things, I was just like, wow, there was really more that met the eye than than what I knew. But it was also, I think, why it felt so not even necessarily overwhelming, but why it just felt so informative was because I had never really looked into this. But these were things that I'm possibly surrounded by, these are things that I've used, these are people who I've probably talked to who even have patents or have dealt with lawyers in that capacity. So, but it also made me think about simplicity. So let's just say we were writing a book, how to obtain a patent for dummies. One-on-one, like the basic steps. What are the true steps from the time you're from the thought to the time you actually have it and you and you sign that patent and it's done?

SPEAKER_01 32:44

It's just, you know, you have the idea and you go to the patent. This is how my process works. You come to me, I basically like, okay, we break down into phases. This is what I tell people to call. I'll give you the spiel that I give everyone, right? First thing I tell them is you don't need a patent to make money. Look around your home, like I said before, most of the stuff doesn't have a patent on it. People make it, sell it, and make a good living off of it. A patent in and of itself generally will not make you money. Too many people think that, oh, I'm gonna invent this idea, then I'm gonna go to a big company, show them my patent, and they're gonna be like, oh, I'm gonna pay money to use your idea. No, they're gonna try to figure out a way to use your idea paying you. That's the first thing they're gonna try to do. You know, these are the you know, these are the ways of the world. Um, I'm not saying it doesn't, but just doesn't happen that often. So, and the other part says, look, this file for a patent is expensive and it's speculative. You might be better off taking all this money you're gonna pay me and the buffers and just put it in the stock market and let it grow. Right. Because the way that you're going to make money off your patent and idea is generally get it to the market, which means you're responsible for the manufacturing, the marketing, getting it to retail. You have to do all that. So getting a patent is not easy, probably the easiest step of trying to make money off your idea. So I break down three phases. First phase, priority surveys. We go out and we look, we try to see if someone else has invented something or disclosed something that is super close to your idea or described your idea, then we can't get a patent. So we stop there. If we don't find anything, and you know, but understand no search is 100% until it's kind of like insurance, it covers a lot, but it doesn't cover anything, right? So if we're okay with that, then we move to the uh application writing. We write that, submit it sits there. Once it's filed, you got two to three years before they even look at it. That's your patent pendings, right? Then within two to three years, we start arguing with the office, and that's generally going to take at least six months, if not a year, uh, you know, if we're able to get the patent. And then you have a patent, and at that point you have a patent, you mark your product and you move forward.

SPEAKER_00 35:07

So that's kind of the process.

SPEAKER_02 35:11

Patience is a virtue. That's definitely what I'm hearing. But as you said, I I think that it because honestly, I was along that thinking that not necessarily that you needed the patent to make money, but I was more so along the line of thinking that the patent like solidified me. And it was just like, no, I could very now I'm thinking that I could very much be solidified without the patent. Because as you said, there are a lot of companies that are not patenting things, but are are finding ways to to use what else is out there or use someone else's idea, or in some capacity, even formulate that to be to be theirs or to be themselves, and whether it be payment, whether it be non-payment, that's another conversation, that's another issue. But I do agree with the I think the simplistic way that you broke it down of just look around your house and just think about how many things that you really have, and think about probably how a lot of that stuff does not have patents on it. But at some point you bought it, you were introduced to it, you've used it, you may have even returned subscriptions, whatever had. Yeah, right. So that's okay, that's interesting. You spoke about um way back in not way back, I'm sorry, 99. Way back. I was three years old in 1999, yes. So to look at from 99 now to 2026, do you notice any drastic changes when it comes to the the patent industry? Do you notice anything that you guys have kind of had to, was there like a turning point or like a breaking point? Have things kind of just evolved little by little over time, or are things pretty comparable to what they were back then, just the same?

SPEAKER_01 36:40

Comparable. I mean, I guess AI will eventually start doing a lot of the leg work, but the problem with AI is that here's another thing. Like people are gonna be like, oh, I'm gonna ask AI about my idea and see what it thinks. Well, a federal court case just came out. These lawyer and and client used AI and they said, hey, it's not protected. So basically, because of terms of service, anything you put in AI is considered disclosed. So you can't tell AI your I. If you do, it's considered, it's likely no one has literally came out and said, Hey, if you describe your patent to AI, it's public disclosure. But given this one ruling, given that you know what killed this attorney client privilege was public disclosure, if it ever came to a patent case, I'm I'm assuming that they're going to say that telling AI your DIA is the same as telling someone else. Probably even worse. Because you know, sometimes public disclosure, the they argue the term public disclosure, like you told your 90-year-old grandmother the robust computer program that you came out with, she's probably like, yeah, it's a great job. You know, she doesn't really understand it, she's not gonna make it. Is that really considered public closure? And there can be arguments around there. But if you tell AI, it's the less knowledge database in the world, right? So and we can access it once it learns, it learns.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

So the idea is you probably did publicly disclose it if you put it in the I that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 38:16

Do you need a lawyer to get a patent?

SPEAKER_00 38:21

I've seen a couple like on pro seas or people who do it themselves do a good job.

SPEAKER_01 38:26

I would not suggest. I mean, i I wouldn't be my own dentist. I wouldn't be, you know, oh definitely wouldn't be my own account. I mean, I can add up, I can do a QuickBooks, I can figure out how much I spent and all this stuff. I'm not gonna do my own, you know. My dad always told me you need you need three things in life. You need a good lawyer, a good doctor, a good accountant. Those are the things you need. So, you know, and a business need those, needs those as well.

SPEAKER_02 38:55

Uh, as much as I love math, yes, I am not checking any books, I'm not doing any PLs, I'm not look, I need so yes, and I I too know about those three good things. So no, I'm with you, but I I could also imagine, too, that somebody could very much be adamant about this and things are just not going their way, or maybe they're being told something differently than what they read online or what AI said or what have you. So I I sometimes find it very interesting the industries that people choose to challenge based off of AI, you know, or especially experts that's in the field or kind of where they go. What what would you say has been the most if you can even disclose in some capacity, what would you say has been the most interesting product or service that you've patented?

SPEAKER_01 39:42

Oh wow, that's uh now when I worked at the patent office, one of the coolest little things I thought was cool at the time because I was in my 20s, was it was the Jaegermeister machine, the one that you see at the bars. It's got the three Jagermeisters in it and stuff like that. I don't know if they still have those around, but yeah, I thought that was pretty cool. Uh so you know, but uh now there's been some cool stuff, like in terms of uh carbon nanotube technology and some stuff. But I said, like I said, it's so far out there that we won't see commercial ability for maybe another 20 years. But you know, you see the possibility of it, but uh, you know, just kind of things. And you know, a lot of people come up to me and it's like, you know, and I have to tell them all the time, they're like, Do you think this is gonna make money? I'm like, look, I've done this too long to see things that are like, whoa, this thing is going to be the best thing since sliced bread. This guy's gonna be loaded, amazing, and it fizzles out because, like I said, getting the patent's one thing, getting the market, building it, doing all that stuff. There's so many little fit points on there that can halt something is such a great idea, right? And then I've seen things like, are you sure you'll spend the money? Are you sure this is what you want to do? Sure enough, make a lot of money off it, and you're like, Well, you know, I'm the marketing guy. I've I've stepped away. That is not my job. My job is like if you can get a patent or not, and I tell them offhand, look, I cannot tell you if it's gonna make money.

SPEAKER_02 41:18

No, I I I definitely get you for sure. And I I just think that there have probably been just so many what-ifs out there, or just so many things that people just knew were just gonna, you know, go to the moon and then and then back, and then it's you know, things fizzle out or something else happens, or the practicality of it, or the accessibility of it is just not maybe what you might have thought it to be. So with I guess with uh AI and with the public disclosure piece, do you do you foresee AI uh uh posing any threat, any complications, any difficulty uh to the future of getting patents, or whether it be working with lawyers, whether it be working examiners, studying it, do you see that kind of interfering in this industry in a large capacity?

SPEAKER_01 42:11

No, I mean I I I can't so I think it will be very helpful in examination searches for very chemical-based or things that are non-physical. Uh in a weird way, I know chemicals are hard. I don't think that's what I meant by that, but it's like the problem with it could do the examination on a lot of those because they can go find it. I don't know if they can do the obviousness standard, but they can help find prior probably fairly easy. The problem is with uh physical, you know, more like mechanical type objects. You might call something a fastener, I might call it a screw, you might call it a dowel. They all do the same thing. So word searching is going to be very difficult for AI unless you know just knows, go through all those kinds of things, because what we were doing as examiners is looking at pictures. So I when I worked there, I worked at mechanical devices, you know, valuable medical devices and this kind of stuff, and you're looking pictures the whole time, and you have to have the ability to spot something pretty quickly, like I see that little spot down there. That that's the little piece that's different than this, and you have to be able to pull it. So, I mean, too, you know, I've worked with AI. It's it's it's it's like having a super smart baby. It's like it can do all the stuff, but you have to lead it. You really have to work it all the way up to where you want it to be.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

It doesn't get what you're trying to say.

SPEAKER_02 43:51

And that's what I've noticed just in general. I think that's why I was so I was so skeptical about it when it first just when when Chat G. GPT just first hit the hit the internet or just wherever it was. It was just like I kind of just took a step back to myself and I was just like, you know, obviously this will evolve. Obviously, other companies will make their own models. They're in the work, still kind of keeping up with the Joneses. That's kind of what I think about uh like AI in general. Like I feel like it's kind of become a thing now where everything is just somebody's doing something else to advance this or somebody's tested this model and now we want to go here. But at the end all be all was that, well, we're still teaching it at the end of the day. We still have to lead it here, and however we lead, it could make or break what it does. There are obviously people who maybe not don't always have the best intentions. So what they're putting into it is one thing, and then what it's getting uh is another thing. So, you know, when you when you think about the culmination of everything that it undergoes, I could see why one, so many models are needed, so many adaptations are needed. But two, it's just interesting because it's just like, does it will it then compromise integrity? Will it then compromise what really the facts are? How really this the basis started? You know, if we if we go back to the 90s, the 80s, the 70s, we weren't inputting stuff into the computer. We were doing research, we were learning. It was trial and error. These were real life situations, and there were things in place to assure so. So yeah, I'm always very interested how it will, you know, obviously it's being immersed in so many different industries in so many different ways in so many different places and spaces. So I'm always just interested for those, for specific industries, like what it'll be or like what future outlooks look like. And obviously, you know, nobody can predict that. Nobody kind of knows what'll happen. We can always hope for the best and cross our fingers. But as you kind of spoke to, there will be some things that, okay, if we if we train the model right, if we kind of put it on that track mind to know what to look for, to know what to do, it'll do that. But there could be other instances where it just complicates the process that much more. So that's why we need experts like Austin, y'all, to just always just have in our back pocket just to make sure that we're doing things the correct way. When I was also doing some research too, on like different types, because you know, the naive me would just think that a patent is just a piece of paper, it's just a stamp, you sign it, it's mine, it's sealed, it's it's it's it's official. But I also came across a word provisional, provisional patents versus non-provisional patents. Can you just give us some insight on what the difference between those two are?

SPEAKER_00 46:15

Well, that's just okay, so okay.

SPEAKER_01 46:20

That was a big fix. And then you know, these places started telling people it was a cheap, easy patent, you know, file a patent for six weeks or blah, blah, blah. Basically, what it was. So there's weird quirk in the walls that so under their conventions, like, so what would happen was you've say you are a Japanese citizen and you've filed for an invention in Japan, you had a year to file it in the United States, but your clock didn't start ticking until we file in the United States. So technically, you almost had 21 years of courage, where an American citizen would file in the United States and they would only get 20 years. So Congress, instead of trying to fix this issue, being complicated, they just said, Well, you can apply for a one-year, you know, it's called provisional patent, and then you can turn it into a non-provisional patent, which is your general what you would understand to be a patent application. So you basically got your 21 years if you wanted to pay for it and go through all the administrative stuff. Well, these companies went out and they basically said, Hey, they're the marketing opportunity here. We're just going to tell people that, hey, we have a patent. There you go. Because you don't need to file complaints, the drawings can be hand drawings, it can just be very, you know, just basic. Like I know that uh some universities, what they do is they just like anytime a professor publishes a paper right before they disclose it, they throw a cover sheet on it, file it in the patent office as a provisional patent application. That way, all the you know, they have a filing date before disclosure. It's not, I don't suggest it. I only suggest it for two specific reasons, and those are in the woods, so I wouldn't even really get into it here.

SPEAKER_02 48:07

Well, the more you know, you know, and that's why too, it's one thing, because when I was doing my reading, like it, it kind of got to that, but it didn't say it as that made a lot more sense than what I was reading, basically. So I'm glad that I I'm glad that I asked you that. But yeah, I I really just I like the I like the scope of this industry really because it just makes sense. Like it's just simple, it's just it's just right in front of you. It's just clear cut and concise, I feel like, you know, and I feel like by bringing that lawyer in, by bringing that expert and that examiner in, they'll pretty much just lay everything along the line for you, you know. And I feel like where it becomes just complicated, or where it may become where people may not have the best, the best uh outlook on it, is maybe the loopholes or where people try to cut corners, or maybe where you are, or maybe even the maybe even who you spoke to or who you dealt with, because I'm not just gonna assume that everybody is just well versed in this and everybody just knows that and just at the snap of a finger can kind of just riddle you whatever you may need. But I I can really just in listening to you today, as I said, someone who was just unaware of a lot of what went into patents was more so on the copyright side of things. And I obviously I knew what trademarks were and I've seen a lot more, but when you kind of break each one down and when you kind of put it in its own sector, they make a lot more sense. And with patents, I guess for for what you're seeing or for where you've been, I feel like it explains it that much more from the disclosure piece, the provisional and non-provisional that we just spoke on, what artificial intelligence could do when it's all said and done, where your experience lies, and even the path to what it gets to take. Even those initial conversations that you have with people probably clear up a lot of maybe the misconceptions or or what they kind of thought they were coming into or what they thought they needed versus how really they could just move a product or a service forward. So we there are obviously gonna be a unique uh demographic of people that hear this episode. There may even be some people out there who have chased a patent at one time. There may have been people who have been successful or lacked thereof. There may have been people who, like myself, were just not experts in this. They didn't know kind of what was going on, they were really just interested or things peaked kind of as they listened to this interview. And then you're just gonna have people who, well, it doesn't really relate to me, but hey, I learned some things today. And Austin definitely has some great, some great analogies to put it together. But for everybody out there, do you feel like there is anything that we haven't touched on, whether it be misconceptions, whether it be even a future outlook, whether it may be even things that you're working on or things that you're looking into on your side, or even a message that you want to leave for business owners, entrepreneurs, and creatives out there?

SPEAKER_01 50:36

Basically, what I mean is, you know, get for if you have a business or you feel like you're gonna start a business, just start a relationship with an attorney. I mean, most of the time you if you do it right, it's just someone you can reach out to fairly quickly, like, hey, I got this, this, and this. They're not gonna charge you for that. I mean, you're supposed to be building a relationship with these people. So, you know, have one in your pocket, have one that knows what you're doing, have one that's going to help you move your business forward. Obviously, this is to help you do have a functioning business and it's growing and stuff like that. But you know, always just have one, you know, and two, one you like and trust, because at the end of the day, they can get as much trouble as you can get yourself into, right? I mean, so we've all heard the horror stories, and that's why I tell people I'm an engineer with the law degree versus an attorney, because every time I tell someone I'm an attorney, they're like, oh man, those guys.

SPEAKER_02 51:32

So I like that. No, I I like that a lot. And I I because I really think when it's all said and done, that it comes down to relationships. It comes down to just, you know, that learning and and who you can reach out to or the resources that you have around. And that's really why I love this podcast as well, because there have been just so many people who come on here and just are selfless. They just offer the information. They kind of just let us know the do's and the don'ts. They kind of just allow us to make their mistakes with them virtually and not have to do them physically. So I I appreciate one, just all of the insight that you've given. I appreciate you even just making yourself just a fountain of knowledge for us for teaching me some things today. And even as I I'm excited to listen back to this because I know there are just going to be some things that even stick out to me even more. But I even appreciate you more for just being a resource to my audience, just being a resource for those people out there who may not have known anything, who may have been interested, who may have been doing some reading, who may even be talking to lawyers or know somebody who may need to or lack thereof. So before we officially close things out though, I do want to give people this is my call to action. I love this part because it's just now you've listened, you've heard us, but let's do something about it. Let's make something happen. So for everybody out there who who may just be curious, who may want to find out more information, who may even have some questions for you, um, what are the best places to reach you, whether it be social media, whether it be connecting online, whether it be word of mouth. Uh yeah, give us everything you got.

SPEAKER_01 52:53

Well, that would just be my last name, Bonder and Patents. Lucky enough, it's such an odd last name. I'm the only patent attorney that has that last name. So you just look up Bonder and then Patents, you'll find me on the internet. I have reels that teach a lot of stuff about patents, stuff like that. Feel free to go through all those. Contact me through my website, or just shoot me an email and you can find that online as well.

SPEAKER_02 53:17

So unique. He didn't even need a patent for it, y'all. No point intended. But no, Austin, seriously, thank you for everything that you've done today. I apologize again for the little technicals that we had in the beginning, but we made it happen. The knowledge, the impact is still there nonetheless. So, from down the business, we are definitely wishing you all the best, all the success here to support however we can. We do appreciate you coming on the show and joining us today and really just provide some value and some insight for our audience, too. And to our audience, you know, so everybody who sticks with me, who listens to me, who's been here for the last almost seven years, you know, I appreciate y'all. We love y'all. This has been another episode of the Down to Business Podcast here with Tamar Turner.