'Why not me?' with Life Cell NI's Catherine King | Toast Talks #7

Catherine King founded LifeCells NI - Northern Ireland's first licensed stem cell biobank - during the Pandemic. In this episode she sits down with us to talk through the whole journey: the idea she first had back in 2015, why COVID convinced her to go again, and how she raised £590,000 in pre-seed to bring it to life.

We get into the hard parts too. The investor no's that don't mean no. Learning to speak the language of cash flow and cap tables when your world is cells and science. The hardest calls a founder has to make. And why she was determined to keep it all at home in the northwest.

An honest conversation about ambition, adaptability and building something Northern Ireland has never had before.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:09

Excellent. So welcome Catherine King.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

Uh thanks for hosting us at your brand new lab.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

No problem at all. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

And so for anybody that doesn't know you, could you just give us a bit of an introduction about yourself, first of all, and then kind of life cells itself? So that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

No problem. So my name's Catherine, I'm the founder of Life Cells NA. Here we're based in Crown to Dairy London.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

And basically what we are doing is we're store the core part of the business is core blood cells.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

And then we're looking out to uh to uh eventually branching out to adult cell storage.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

But the facility here itself we will be renting out to the likes of life sciences, to universities, to health trusts. We have a clean room there as well and a lovely storage facility behind us.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

Okay, so uh not an overnight thing, I wouldn't imagine, to create uh something like this.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

So definitely not.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

Um can you take us back to what first kind of brought you into this world? So I take it you hadn't start one day and say, do you want I'm gonna create a do stem cells. Do stem cells.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Um no, so uh my background, I I love science. Like when I was doing A-levels GCSEs, I love science. So I went to University of Ulster in Korean and done biomedical sciences, and that's kind of where my love of stem cells ignited. It was like, you know, the more you looked into it, you were like, when you've seen the possibilities, you were like, why is nobody kind of doing this? And I tried to do it in 2015, but I don't think the economy or or Northern Ireland was ready for it, and then COVID happened, and I thought, you know what, I'm gonna go again, give it a go, and we'll see how we go. And it kind of just took off from there.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

So all in uh you know, whenever you're saying so 2015 was the idea uh initially, yeah, but when did you actually then start going right? Okay, do you know what I'm actually gonna give this a go? So, how long is it taking to get to this point? Because I don't think people appreciate maybe how long it takes to get an idea like this from start to finish.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Definitely not, like, because you have to take into consideration, you know, the need and the solution and what you need to get there, who you need in your team to get there, and it takes getting the right people as well, investor-wise. And I come from like I'm not good at baths, and I was just like, I need somebody who's gonna help me with numbers, and that's where I came and approached Toast as well in 2022 and annoyed them for how many years. So it takes a big team to kind of get where we are, and we had um Kevin too, one of our investors who's a a builder, he brought the vision to life as well. So there were so many different backgrounds came in to get to where we are.

SPEAKER_02 2:57

Yeah, it you know, something like this does require a whole lot of different specialisms, as you say, you know, it's not necessarily numbers, but you need somebody to to assist you with that, and then building's the same. Um but at what point did the the fascination? So you started obviously science, A levels, and and university, yeah. But at what point were you were like, right, I'm gonna give this business a go? So was that like 2021 after COVID or it would have been 2022, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

So 2022 after COVID, I was sitting and you could see the need, especially after COVID and people were sick and things like that, and you were like, you know, hmm, could could sales do something with personalised medicine there? Could it help, you know, a treatment with things like that? And the more you look back into it, then you look at what you previously looked at, you know, how can cell therapy help certain blood cancers, how can cell therapy move forward? Treatment, who could you help? The likes of the trust, you know, and you could see the likes of the universities and things like that sending samples to England, so it wasn't just a whole cellular level, you know, there was a storage part there as well. So I was like, Do you know what? Northern Ireland could really be a hub for all this to help drive forward innovation. And I was like, you know, why not me? You know, why why am I sitting here waiting on someone else to start it? Like, let's get the ball rolling and get up and running.

SPEAKER_02 4:14

Yeah, but it that takes a lot of courage. Like maybe people don't fully understand. Like, so how do you kind of find that to actually go right? No, no, it could be me.

SPEAKER_00 4:25

I just think it's a passion. Like, um, you know, when you sit and you look at the amount of young people who are passing away at the minute, and if you've had family members who've passed away young, and you sit and think, you know, could a small biological sample sitting in a freezer in the middle of Irvington save somebody's life? Save that family member's life. And I think that really drives forward the passion too, is thinking how you can help families and how you can help drive forward medicine. You know, give somebody there tomorrow. Why can't it be us?

SPEAKER_02 4:56

Just you know, just take us through the possibilities that you know, and in kind of broadly simple terms. What is potentially possible from it?

SPEAKER_00 5:06

At the you know, there's so many clinical trials at the moment. Um, like cancers, I've said, has currently been treated by cell therapy, but there's so many, so that's where you'd love to see the future of medicine going. Like there's a lot of research in diabetes, there's research in good anti-dementia, you know, there's the the possibilities are endless.

SPEAKER_02 5:24

But would you consider this kind of the future of a seriously significant part of future medicine?

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Personalized medicine, it definitely has a big spotlight on it at the moment, which is exciting.

SPEAKER_02 5:35

Do you have a uh a sense of pride that you have been able to achieve what you've been able to achieve?

SPEAKER_00 5:42

Definitely. I think not hopefully it's never needed, but if you ever have to help our first family member or first patient that stored their cells, I think it'll be a big proud moment. But playing a part in this and helping, you know, life cells help any facility or any hospital or patient or family, you know, the FDA is a proud proud moment.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

But and also like it is the first in Ireland, and thanks so like you've actually literally brought this as a first in Ireland.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

I know. It's mad, it's it's mad.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

But I mean it at most value is a certain sense of pride, you know, and it obviously it's early stage in what's possible, yeah, but it is actually up and running and operational.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Yeah, so we're currently waiting on getting our HTA licence, which is a human tissue authority license. Okay, and that will allow us then to store cells here in the lab in Ervington. And once we get that, we want to look forward to you know helping the likes of the trust in the universities. You'd rent the lab, rent the clean room. But we also want to go down a MHRA pathway. So we want to open up the clinical trials and bring companies here to Northern Ireland to open up different types of personalised medicine treatments.

SPEAKER_02 6:53

Okay, excellent. It's a goal. And just you touched on it earlier about the the kind of team that's involved there. Um obviously you you had to go through an investment round to do this, you didn't have the capital just sitting sitting around. Yeah. So can you can give us a an insight as to how difficult, hard a journey that is?

SPEAKER_00 7:14

You will get a good couple of no's, definitely. But the trick is don't let it dishearten you. If you have something that you believe is going to work, you just keep going. Um and it doesn't necessarily mean they don't believe in the idea, it's just they're not the right fit. Like we've sat in front of a good couple of investors and I've spoken to them, and they've never not said, Oh, this is a bad idea, it's crap or whatever, but it's just like I don't think it's the right fit, I don't know how I can help you. And then in February last year, uh we sat in front of a group of investors here in the AMP in Ermington, Ryan Williams, Kevin Mackin, uh Clarden, Shirt, Gaffkin, they represented the co-fund and a lot of other private investors, and that really was the driving force after that. It was people who seen the vision and believed in the idea, and I think everybody brings their own bit of uniqueness as well, and you can always go and get that help. So it was the right time.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

Yeah, like you say, it's not always just about the money and and so it's what else that that comes with that, like the advice and the the kind of the support through the journey, and and really they have been kind of instrumental in bringing that forward. Yeah, and uh very lucky, you know, and so that's what you're saying. Sometimes it's it's you know, look, I don't get it, I don't know how I can support you, I don't know what I can bring. Yeah, um, so it's not necessarily let it dishearten you, it's just not the right fit for that person.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

Exactly, just keep going.

SPEAKER_02 8:37

How tough is it though? I'm being honest. How how tough is it?

SPEAKER_00 8:40

It's very tough. There's days you go, it's not gonna happen, and then you kind of fight with yourself internally, you're like, Am I like, is it worth going forward? Is it worth keep you know, is it not a good idea? But then you have the good days and the bad days, and then when you think about why you're doing it and who you can help, that's the driving force.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Yeah. But it it must be very difficult, like you're saying, you know, you have days where you start to question is it right?

SPEAKER_00 9:05

But you know yourself, there's days I spoke to you and I was like, My God, this is never gonna happen. How are we gonna? And then you every and every investor looks for different information, and that's where the numbers come in again, like cash flow, cap tables, you know, they want to see as well, not just the vision, but they want to make sure that you understand the cash flow and where everything needs implemented, which again is another ball game, but uh you need to cover everything.

SPEAKER_02 9:31

And you know, how tough is that? Because obviously you come from a science background, and then you're being thrown into a worried about not just the finance and the cap tables and the cash flows, but then right the building works and the systems and things like that. So, how do you find that as trying to wear so many different hats as a founder?

SPEAKER_00 9:51

It's pretty hard, but at the same time it was it was great, there was a great learning curve, but you kind of just have to adapt as they come to you. That's the only thing I suggest like as I said, I Kevin was a great help with the bullet work. But when I came to the clean room there, we had to kind of work with them and give them a HTA legislation, and they came to me for a lot of answers. So we worked quite well in tandem myself, the clean room and Kevin. So when we did come up against certain difficulties, there was always somebody there to kind of give you advice, which was great.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

But it that that support is is invaluable, you know. People who kind of just go right and send us the legislation, we'll have a look and see how does this work, how does that work at this? Definitely that's unbelievable. But um in relation to so you raised what $5.90 pre-seed. Yeah. Um is it is it challenging getting the technical side of it through to investors? Like, did they get that part of it?

SPEAKER_00 10:47

They did. Like, no l no investor wants to sit and listen to a lecture of stem cells. As long as you can get what the issue is, the solution, how it's going to be met, and you have the right team to drive it forward. I find that was very, you know, it was great, it helped the case, but again, it came down to the numbers. The two of them just worked hand in hand, and that's what gave me the confidence to kind of talk to the investors because when we had worked on it and went through the cash flow and the the cap table, I could answer everything confidently knowing that yeah, what I'm giving you and what I'm telling you is right.

SPEAKER_02 11:20

And see that that confidence to to actually do that. So you're obviously there's in this field there's not that many women, and there's certainly not that many women on the on the business end of it. Yeah. So how did you manage to to get the confidence in in everything to actually bring that? Because it's an it is an unbelievable achievement that that you've done there.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Thank you. I think it's just the passion. Uh that's what's driving me. It's not um, you know, the fear of all I don't even look at it as if I you know there's not many women in this field. I think it's just the outcome, what it can be, where we want to take it, and who we can help along the way.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

That's just the main goal.

SPEAKER_02 12:03

And you know, so from from the point of view of you know, where you've actually established it as well is obviously not, you know, yeah. There are areas that are, you know, specialise in science, innovation, and stuff like that. Unfortunately, the Northwest not yet isn't known for that. So you've not only have you brought it to an area that it isn't, yeah, you know, all the different things that you've achieved along the way, yeah, like you've managed to get through so many barriers to actually do that, and then keep it at home, maybe keep it at home. Yeah, um, so it's exciting, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

It was great, like I'd always said and I was always adamant, I want to keep it at home. I don't want to move to another big and up-and-coming area. I just want to keep it at home, have something for the northwest, and we're only a couple of minutes from the hospital too, so it's it's great in that respect.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

Yeah. And listen, you know, although it's it's very nice to kind of talk about all the successes and stuff like that, but as a kind of founder and a and a business owner, and particularly with was how com complex and difficult this has been, what's the hardest call you've had to make so far?

SPEAKER_00 13:09

I think it's not pushing or cutting corners. You know, I think I would rather explain why it took us so long rather than explaining we've compromised a sample. And I think, you know, sitting looking at quality and making sure you hit every regulation and you have the right team behind you, it's time. Time can be a big restrictor and things can go wrong. Like we've had machinery that's come and it's been faulty or damaged, and that's the latest months on end, but you just have to keep driving forward.

SPEAKER_02 13:40

And you know, you've obviously had to adapt to a lot of different changes, so is that frustrating? Yeah, you guys.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

It can be, but again, I think with my previous roles in life sciences, you kind of you're used to things adapting and changing and protocols changing all the time, so it's not anything out of the you know the norm, which is good. So no, it's it's fine. You just keep the way it was in the consciousness.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

Yeah, there's nothing. And like business in general is like that, but even in this sector particularly, it it seems to be, you know, obviously you were saying earlier about machines being damaged and and dropped, and you just can't account for that. There's no planning that you can do that will change that. Do people need to appreciate that sometimes you can plan and plan and plan, and with the best will in the world, you just have to do that.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Yeah, things happen out of your control all the time, it's the same in any business, and I think you just there's no point you know dwelling on it or freaking out over it, you just have to keep going and just get it sorted and keep keep rolling.

SPEAKER_02 14:45

I know you can keep things moving, don't worry, I know I know you can do that. Um so in in relation to where where you are now, so what's the next milestone from here? So what's the what's the path? So obviously the lab's aberrational and ready to go. Yeah. Your HDA licence you mentioned, which is is coming soon.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

But then from there, it's just kind of moving forward, so it would be cord blood, so the basis is of the business will be cord blood and getting the word out there, but as well, you know, we have a lot of interest from industry and from private sector, uh, the universities who want to come and use the facility for um research, but also the clean room and then storing samples as well here in our freezers. Uh, but you know, we want to broaden out the the cells and the tissue samples that we work with, and we want to bring in clinical trials, we want to bring in research from all over, whether it be Europe or America, wherever. And I think then the next step would be MHRA status. We'll work towards it as well and start driving forward that personalized medicine pathway.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

Okay. And what what's the kind of capacity here that you can do? So what's the is there a limit to how much you can do? No. No?

SPEAKER_00 15:58

No, we can we've already looked at potential expansion. So if we do really get busy, there's there's somewhere that we can branch out to, which is exciting.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

We're we're getting a lot of inquiries, so upwards and onwards, upwards and onwards, and and you would your preference is still to keep it posted. We're keeping it here, yeah. Keeping it here, yeah. Okay. Um so in terms of the the the actual so we touched about then in relation to the investors, in terms of the numbers, how difficult was it to kind of get into that world and then see you know how it would actually work? So was it difficult to put together the business case for it?

SPEAKER_00 16:35

I know. Like when I approached you, our first meeting was like, what do you need? We sat in a boardroom for how long and we looked through, you know, what do you need? Where are you looking to go? What's your supplies? Go and get this and come back and get three quotes. So the first I'd say first couple of months was really sitting ringing, getting multiple quotes, narrowing that down, looking at the cash flow, looking at rent, looking at your utilities, what do you need? But obviously that changes as your idea changes and expands. So we've had a chop and change it a few times, but it was hard at the start. And then whenever yourself and Stephen sat down and kind of explained everything to me, it was a click then, kinda. But I still get stages as we go on throughout the investment process where you're like, oh my god, but then I just gonna know you're in the spine.

SPEAKER_02 17:21

But that you know, genuinely it is it is what it is there for. It's you know, listen, right? What about this part and how does that work and whatever, and then you kind of get a bit of reassurance, and I'm sure it's no different from the construction side, yeah, and then from Ryan's side as well.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

You know, definitely, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 17:37

Ryan obviously has his own um own businesses, so he's well used to kind of don't worry about that. See that you need to really focus on that.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

Definitely, and I think that's really invaluable as well. Whenever you have somebody that you can go to and say, Look, I don't know what we're doing, or can I have a bit of advice? And the door is always open. Yeah. Like I could text you know that one of the investors, Ryan or Kevin, now at maybe 10 o'clock at night, and like, right, this is correct, bud, this is what we're doing, or this is what you do, and that is there's no pressure at all. Yeah, and I think that's what helps the the ball go smoothly as well, because if you were always panicking or you felt stressed, I think it would be really hard, but there's none of that that's so supportive. And Clarendon's the same like co-fund. You could reach out to Stuart if you had needed a bit of help and he comes back to you straight away, yeah. Which is great.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

Yeah, and like how valuable has it been? Obviously, you're based in them and and the city, so uh, how invaluable has that been? Just to be kind of part of I suppose what are what are other entrepreneurial businesses that are getting started? So, how useful has that been? I know is Jennifer you you would talk to quite a bit.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

Yeah, Jennifer's part of the team as well. Jennifer's great, she's one of our investors, and we would have like one-to-ones every so often, like, and it's just it's invaluable. Like, we had a meeting there was it last week, and she kind of if you have any questions about sales or growths, Jennifer's always there to kind of big you up or listen to if you have your bad days or you're stressed out, but thank god there's not too many of them. But yeah, there's always somebody you can go to, and all the other companies in here too are great. Like you can always chat to them. There's always events on and and here too. It's always it's a real pinch me moment where you're going, you have that ecosystem at your door, you just walk out and chat to somebody.

SPEAKER_02 19:15

Yeah, no, it must be really, really helpful because there, like you said, there are days where you're like, I don't know, this is gonna work out and keep going or whatever. And sometimes all it is is a conversation and just be like, No, no, hold on, that's actually not as bad as you think it is. It's it's actually like this, and and you kind of reinvigorate you that because I go, All right, okay, and that then that's fine.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

Um, so I can I can kind of see you know how valuable the amp is in general for businesses, but more specifically yours.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

So massively, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:44

It's it's great that it's here.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

I know, it's and it's amazing because you could be somebody with an idea and you don't know who to go to. Like at the start, before I was introduced to Ryan, there wasn't any advertising on who could help. Yes, you had like you could go to parts of InvestNI or the local enterprise in I, but there wasn't really the help, but you kind of needed that wee bit extra support. Yeah. And then whenever I kind of fell on my Ryan, it just so yeah, it was great. Like the support from everybody's been amazing.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

Yeah, like you know, there's not it's not something you can Google until you actually do this. It's it's literally like practical day-to-day support and and guidance on it. So that's it is it is great for the city that it's here. Um in relation to I know we've kind of touched on this again, is that how prepared should people be to to change? Which is like you saying, what does it look like from what you first envisage to what it is now? Like is it close?

SPEAKER_00 20:50

We've it's changed like big time, but you have to be adaptive to change. Because uh you as you start um expanding and you start to see your idea come to life, your ideas expand with it. And I think you have to be very like if you're planning the lab and you're going, well, this is the basis, and they go, but hold on, I could do this and I could do that, and then you go and be like, uh what's investment we have in the cash flow, can we maybe add this and that in and be future proof for this? And it definitely it's always think ahead, always be three steps ahead of yourself.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

Are there are there things that you you know obviously that you you've had to cut out of it where you're like listen, it's a nice idea, but you know, that's gonna have to wait till phase two, three, whatever. Yeah. So are there decisions you have to make like that?

SPEAKER_00 21:35

Yeah, so when we want to expand out into like adult cell storage, you know, we wanted to have like maybe a wee room where someone could come in and sit, like a wee clinic room, and you're kind of thinking, right, hold on, let's just get the core part of the business nailed down, and then we'll run everything else alongside it as we start to expand, and we know that we're doing well and we have the the use of the facility, but I didn't expect the industry side of things to tick off so well, the same as the the core blood, so the two of them are kind of just going nicely hand in hand at the moment, which is great.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

And like in terms of employees-wise, it's yourself and a few others.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

Yeah, myself and Michael, so Michael Ronald, Michael, full-time now, Dr. Cornwell. So he's had the pleasure of working with me now for the next how long? How many years so it's just us two, but yeah, we will probably need to start looking at phlebotomists and things like that. So it could be a a quick enough employment.

SPEAKER_02 22:29

Okay. On check. Expansion. Yeah. So thank you very much for taking the time. And uh we wish you nothing but success for the film lab, and hopefully we'll be here for phase two.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

Yes, you will.