HR Dynamics Podcast
The HR Dynamics Podcast is where we talk all things people, performance, and workplace culture. Join our team as we share real stories, helpful tips, and down-to-earth advice to make managing HR easier and more effective for Australian businesses.
HR Dynamics Podcast
What's Your Leadership Style?
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What’s your leadership style?
In this episode, Phoebe Kitto breaks down four core leadership styles that show up in most workplaces. Phoebe explains how to spot your natural style, when to flex into others, and why the best leaders know how to shift depending on the situation and the team in front of them.
Welcome to the HR Dynamics Podcast, where we make people leadership simple. Each episode we break down real workplace issues, practical tips for managers, and the HR topics that actually matter day to day. No jargon, no fluff, just straight talking advice to help you lead your team with confidence. Let's get into it. Today's podcast is about leadership styles with Deanne and Phoebe.
SPEAKER_01So this time we're doing a slightly different topic. We are. And I get to ask the questions this time. I'm not going to be in the hot seat for the whole half hour.
SPEAKER_00So normally I get to think of all of the hard questions that I want to put Dee on the spot with. Today she has done the same to me from a leadership point of view. So take it away. Let me see if I can answer your questions.
SPEAKER_01Okay. I my questions in and around leadership are what I understand that you should probably change your leadership style to match the employees that are in front of you or the employees that you have in the workplace. But why the why do I need to change my leadership style for that?
SPEAKER_00Sure. No, that's a really good question. I do think that we do, if we don't think about it, we will sometimes tend to lead in the way that we like to be led. So therefore, I would just like everyone to manage top level, move really fast, not give a level of detail, and just straight straight for the punchline. It has been brought to my attention that is maybe not the way that everybody else likes to be led within the team because they don't have the same personality type as I do. So the ideal situation is that we flex our leadership style depending upon the person or the group of people that we're working with, so that we're able to get the best result from them. So if we're looking at social styles, which is something that we use quite a lot, you've got analytical people. They are the people that, you know, to start at the beginning and work their way methodically through to the very end. We would typically describe them as slow-moving, make their information based on fact. They like detail and they like time to digest information. So that's the analytical style. So I'm sure everyone knows an analytical in their lives. I'm not analytical, I need an analytical in my life at all times to slow me down, to make me check the detail, to make me think things through. Next person that we're looking at is driving personality style. So driving personality is when you're very goal focused. So you're fast moving, and again, you make your decision based on fact rather than the people in general. So you are about what are the goals, what do I need to achieve? How do I need to achieve it? You're good at making a quick decision. If the decision's wrong, that's fine. You pivot and make a decision later on. So quite a bit of confidence around that. They are will be very direct in their feedback. So if they don't like something, I'll just be like, Dee, don't like that email that you write, can you redo it? Quite to the point, don't always use a lot of words, quite direct in their approach. That's your driving personality. Do you identify with that personality style, Dee? Me?
SPEAKER_01What would make you say that I am a driver? But I'm also that a conscientious or analytical person as well. I do have a split personality. But interestingly enough, I think that the the driver trait is my natural preference. So if you ask my my children, bless their cotton socks, even though they're adults now, I was always a smack first, ask questions later type type parenting style. And if I asked them to do something, I wanted them to be moving before I finished the sentence, and there was no no highway option. But through the work that I do, I had to learn how to be analytical. So I have a little bit of a balance. One thing I do know about my style, Phoebe, and I think it's it adds into you when I am in leadership roles, I can come across as very blunt, arrogant, and rude. Not intentionally, but because I move at such a pace and make certain decisions very do do. I expect everybody to move at the same pace I do. And it took me a long time to realise that not everybody does.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and look, it's it's really good self-reflection, and it is the same for me. I'm a driving, I'm more of a driving expressive personality than a driving analytical personality. Certainly I can, when I'm one could say, traits of our style or some of the extreme traits of our style will come out when we're tired, when we're stressed, when we're feeling slightly annoyed. And in those situations, I know I become snappy and I know I can become quite controlling. And I will just be very direct, shut people down, say it as it is. You know, that's just my style that I will completely lean into rather than I'm feeling more moderate during the day. Yeah, but I agree that sort of arrogance controlling, snappy is certainly something that happens with our driving personalities. But you know, drivers are good, they get lots of stuff done. There's a lot of advantages to having a driving personality because you will see projects through and you'll start to get traction. So a lot of you who are attending this, I think will be driving personalities if you're in a leadership role or you'll have other leaders that it is quite a common style within that leadership group. Not necessarily the best style, not the only style for leaders to have, but it is certainly a common one because you bully your way to the top. Okay, the next style that I want to talk about is the amables. So we call the amables the nice people, don't we, Dee?
SPEAKER_01They're the birthday cake people. They always bring birthday cakes for everybody's birthday.
SPEAKER_00They do, yes. And then when you're going out for lunch, instead of just saying this is where we're going, like I would, because I think it's a good place and I've just made a decision, they'd be far more like, have we got any vegetarians, have we got any vegans, where would everybody like to go? So far more consultative than what we would have been as driving personalities. They are team people, they really I really notice with simple people that they have good manners and they have in a respect for other people. And they have seem that for that, then that just makes common sense. So they don't understand when other people don't do the same back to them. They're like, why would that person do that? That's not respectful. Isn't it not obvious that because I gave you everything filed neatly, that you would return it filed neatly in the same way back again? Or would you assume that you should inform me and let me know about this? Because that would be appropriate and good manners from it, but not everybody has that same respect. Just from an HR perspective, I'm sorry if you're an amable person, but you're my hardest stuff to manage. And the reason being is that you'll you tell me what I want to hear.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. They're avid, avid conflict avoiders, and will will do anything possible to avoid uncomfortable situations, hard or robust conversations. They're just not comfortable in that environment, which does sort of lean into them, not addressing issues and just sweeping it under the I describe them as giant rubber bands, and they just tighten and tighten and tighten and tighten, and then one day they just snap, and then you find yourself going, Well, holy cow, that was way out of character for Mary. Mary never does that, it's because Mary's got to the point where she can't take it anymore and she's gone pee, and they explode just out of the blue because they can't take anymore. But leading up to that point, they will just not say anything at all, it's all fine, it's all good, or they'll tell you exactly what you want to hear.
SPEAKER_00The other thing I can do Yeah, so but and and it's not because they're nasty or gossipy people, but it's because they're trying to build support and numbers. So instead of if you make a decision that I don't like, because I don't like conflict, I'm not gonna go to you and say, Dee, I don't like the way that you've done the roster. But I'm likely to go to Shan and say, What about the roster that Dee did? Did you like it? No, I didn't like it either. What do you peek? And that's two things. One is trying to just make sure that the what they're thinking, feeling, their thoughts is others are, they're all on the same page because remember they like that collaborative approach. Secondly, they're hoping that someone else is going to go and talk to Dee because they don't want to have to do the conflict of it themselves. So there's someone else because Dee's scary. No, so they sort of pussyfoot around. So that is your aimable, aren't always good at making a decision because they want to make the right decision and they want to please. And what does pleasing look like? So it can get quite stressful for them in that situation. But having said that, they are the nice people in the workplace. Like there's a lot of aimables out there, and it's good to have a lot of aimables on your team. Can be a bit of a struggle if you're an aimable personality in a leadership. Great positive qualities, and that you will be really good at looking after your team and really being respectful and building trust and being generous with your team. So some fabulous qualities there as a leader that you can really work to. However, you need to be brave enough to be able to have those conversations, those tough, cough, tough conversations. I the other thing that I noticed with is that you do a lot of mind chatter. So they'll often get things over and over and over and over and over something. And then by the time they get the confidence to talk about it or to say it, it comes out quite harsh and quite direct.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I find that as a leader, if I have a team of amiable or steady, I call them just they're steady, they're very steady, usually don't uh embrace change all that well. Can be some of the biggest blocks in terms of driving change in the workplace, whether that be changing the layout of the car parks or implementing the systems and software, if you they are true believers of if it ain't broke, don't fix it. But if you're leading a team that's that's got a number of angle in it, then your change management process needs to be quite robust.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I would say that for analyticals as well, actually. Analytical um will not change because it sounds fun and exciting. They are a bit of the cup half-empty people when it comes to it, uh, change. And in that, you're talking in a textbook about a change, and they'll be the ones that will come up with all the problems and the issues and the costs and the things that could do wrong, which is really good. Because sometimes we could just get excited and go off with a bit of a squirrel, particularly if we've got driving and expressive people who love change and things happening. Your amables will really slow you down and make you think the consequences to it. Animals probably will make you think about the consequences to the team and the people, and the analyticals will all be about the the dollars and the figures and the facts and the yeah, truth. Then we have expressives. I've got a bit of expressive in me. The water cooler people. So yeah, we are we're the we're the watercooler people, we like to have a chat, expressive people, high the social, high energy. I would often say from an expressive, love a new idea, new concept, something to start. Squirrel to the T. Like, and when I say squirrel, it's like, oh, that sounds exciting. Let me work over there. Great at starting, not always good at finishing things. Really good at building your expressives, are your relationship builders, and they're great from jump juggling lots of projects.
SPEAKER_01So yeah and innovation, you know, they're the the creative, innovative, big, big picture stuff, an idea way up in the ether that probably none of the other styles could actually even picture. Oh, they're the ones that will picture it. They just need the team behind them to get it off the ground because once they have the idea, they're on to something else. I'd never do that, Key. Like a whole lie on that one.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they suffer foot and mouth disease sometimes. So when they're actually working through a problem, you've got an analytical that will very much think it through in their mind and they'll work out a solution. And then by the time they actually verbalize it or email it, whatever it's going to be, it's actually well thought out what it's going to be. Your expressive needs to talk through the problem solution, solving solution. So here's the example is we're going to paint the room, let's paint it green. Green's going to be great, love green, we're going to get this kind of shade of green. Hang on, do we want too much green? Because these hospitals and green, I don't think I like that much green, and then suddenly we're going to be painting the room white. And the people around, particularly the animals, are just going, what was this meeting all about? Why did we start here and finish here? That seemed like a whole lot of waste of time and what you said you were going to do, you didn't end up doing, and you backflipped. But it's actually important to remember that that's the way that expressives process their decision making is verbalizing and talking it through in storytelling. Do you agree with that, Dan?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. I think it when you you look at the four typical styles, and these are typical styles, there's variations, we're all a mix of all. But we usually have a natural behavioral preset to towards one or two. And I think for us developing an awareness of what these styles are, and particularly our own, because everything starts with self, I think that that probably leads me to my next question for you, Phoebe, is if I'm in a leadership role, how do I go about having a difficult or disciplinary conversation with these different types of employees? Because my default setting is I walk in, rip the band-aid off, get it done, move on, let's go and have a beer afterwards. I'm happy to go in and just say it is what it is, this is what we're doing, and expect that person to walk out of that room and not hold a grudge against the fact that I've had to do this. So, how do I adapt? What do I do?
SPEAKER_00I'm thinking of a client that's like better than I'm at. And I feel like we're almost trying to pull ropes on him to hold him back to like, yeah, no, they don't need the result. Let's just walk through a little bit of a process. Okay, so let's break it down. So obviously, if you've got an analytical person, we know that the thinkers they're not spontaneous. They need time to digest and they need time to gather the facts. Therefore, if I was going to be having a disciplinary meeting with an analytical, I would really make sure that I give them plenty of advanced notice that it's going to be happening. I would be really clear in letting them know what this conversation is going to be about so that they're going to be they're going to want to be prepared. So there's going to be an outline. And ideally, I might do that verbally to them, but then I would back it up with a letter or an email. We're going to meet this is what the process, no decisions being made. These are the things that are going to be discussed. When I go into that disciplinary process with the person, I'm going to make sure that I am in my example base that I am using them to explain what the matters are. So it can't just be you make mistakes with your work. You're going to have to be very specific with this is the document, this is what the mistake was, this is why I would have expected for it to be there. So it's going to be very factual. Would you agree with that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. I think you know the probably the worst thing. An analytical person, one of their worst fears is their work being criticized because they, in their mind, have gone through the effort, they have put in the work, the attention to detail, the research to get it right. So then someone comes in and tells them that it's not right. You you're gonna need to be sure that it that it's not. I think the most difficult conversation to have with an analytical person is Mary feels that upset her because your voice was a bit loud. Like all that thoughts and feelings and non-tangible stuff was really hard for those um analytical people to yeah, I agree.
SPEAKER_00The the feeling part of the team, or they're not as hard for an analytical. It needs something very tangible, so you're really gonna have to break that down, what that looks like and what their perception and very specific as to these are some things that you need to start to do to build that relationship or to improve the mistake. That is what an analytical they want. The detail, they know, and they're also gonna plan as to what's happening from here, what the consequences are going to be, and you're going to have to hold, you're gonna have to make sure that you do a follow-through, otherwise, you're completely going to lose respect from the person. Yeah, analytical person. Okay. What about if you do a driving personality? So, well, if I was going to take you into a performance management, what would be the best way to do it, Dick?
SPEAKER_01Factual, short and sharp. How do we get past it? What do I need to change? Yeah. Like it's comedy because pretty pretty direct bullet points, we don't need to be there all day. I will probably fight with you and I would disagree and argue with your perspective on the matter, particularly if maybe not so much you because you do have a strong driver trait and we can bounce off each other, and that's okay. But if I had an amiable manager trying to have a disciplinary conversation with me, I pity the poor soul because I would cut them off at the knees just with verbal articulation, not because I should, but because I can.
SPEAKER_00And that's your style, and you'd use that pointed. Absolutely. So it's very quite scary, quite how to kind of gain control of the situation, real survival instinct with it. So being prepared for quite a robust conversation with a driving personality. The good thing about that is that they don't hang on to gripes with it. So if we had a disagreement, we could have quite a robust conversation, and then I'd say, Do you want a cup of coffee? It's the robustness was around the issue that we were discussing. Yeah, difference. We don't have to carry that over to the other parts of our relationship. And I actually think that's where it can come undone with a driver because they can be very direct and quite hard-hitting, particularly the aimables will think they have that opinion of everything, and the drivers, everything else is absolutely fine. I'm just talking about this specific project, interaction, shift, whatever it's going to be, whereas they see the bigger picture. So, yeah, that's in a driving situation, I would be prepared to be able to have a quite a strong conversation and be clear as to what the consequences and you may get to the point that we agree to disagree, however, this is going to be the consequences if this behaviour continues on. That's right.
SPEAKER_01But I think if you are having to have a difficult conversation with a driver, the worst things you could probably possibly do for them is put them in a situation where their authority or their stature within the organization, their teammates, their colleagues, is put out in the open. So you want to make sure that it is a very private conversation. You don't want to be having this in front of any other team members, etc., because that's being in control is very important to them. So if they feel like there is an absence of control and they feel ambushed, you can be prepared for that really vicious part of a driving personality to come forward. No, expressives. The expressives. How am I going to have a disciplinary conversation with them? Well, I'm certainly not going to do it at the water cooler.
SPEAKER_00No, even though they would quite like to have that conversation at the water cooler, probably. I think with an expressive, they like the sound of their own voice. Try to get them to express what the issues are and to talk it through in a story and allow them to come to the conclusion. So I would really be using the word expressives are quite fast-moving, expressives and driving personalities. You have to give them time and do you want a support person? But you often find that they actually would prefer to have the conversation quite quickly. They might ask if they're able to or they're going to want a short lead-in time where that would be more common. Whereas bubbles and the analyticals will want that time to prepare, I think, and of course just to avoid it. So with your expressives, they are going to want to talk and they'll have got the gift of the game. So they'll be talking through a story and going off in tangents and what about this, but I did that, and they'll be potentially all over the shop. So it's really about pulling them in and trying to get them. I I understand, I can clearly see some of the reasons, but can you talk me through why that behaviour does not align with what is appropriate conduct in the workplace or how this has become an issue and what we need to do? So you need to really build them into that scenario. Is that that would be my biggest tip? What about you?
SPEAKER_01Certainly leaning on the fact that they are more people oriented and want to see everybody happy. So they're probably going to be more open to engaging in conversations of how to get past this so that everybody hasn't lost any perception of their social status, you know, or their reputation, because that's very important to them.
SPEAKER_00So we think they said your drivers, it's all about control, your expressives is all about the relationships and social status and how that if they're liked by others. They don't get liked that that is going to really upset them.
SPEAKER_01Oh, absolutely. Their worst nightmare would be a conversation where everybody in the team doesn't like you. Like that, that would just be pulling the carpet out from underneath them. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Whereas if you said that to a driver, they'd say, oh well. Yeah, that's not my job's not to be liked.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I'm here to get results. Yeah. Yeah, that social status is really important for them. So that's your expressive personality with their performance plan, if you're going to be documenting it down. Remember they're the squirrels. You're going to have to make sure that they keep on track and that you give regular feedback and and make sure they're really sort of owning what behaviour needs to change and that they're implementing the requirements that they need to do to get there. And then we've got so you're aimable for the ones that they're going to reside before they have to go to the meeting.
SPEAKER_01Or they're going to bring out every memo fax that has been done in the organization on the issue since David was a boy because it's the way we've always done it. And I that they're they're very good. They have got memories like elephants.
SPEAKER_00Very avoidant, really. They they're the ones that will cry in your performance reviews quite often. They'll often bring a support person with them. The lead up time, I feel, is just often about delaying having to have the meeting. They don't want to have to do it. And look, sometimes we have we have performance management meetings for a whole range of issues. It's not necessarily because we want to terminate, it's just a bit of up, they need to upskill or pick up their game or a bit of a corrective action. So you've really got to think about what is the end game that I'm trying to achieve here. So if you go in really hard and direct with your aimable and get them off site and they lose confidence, is how are you going to get them back onto it again? So I would really be spending a lot of time with an aimable, making them feel valued and you're all a part of the team, and we're really acknowledging all of these things that you're doing well. These are some areas that we would like to help you improve upon or adjust or get on top of, make it we would like to help you rather than you need to, would be my question, Abel.
SPEAKER_01Well, absolutely, because they if you don't, they've already catastrophized the situation. So they've already climbed the mountain three times over and have thought about every worst possible outcome. They're already there. So to bring them back is really, really difficult to do, even though they will say, Yeah, no, that's okay. I'm all good, I'm all good. They're potentially not all good. And we usually see that it sort of manifests itself into an elevation in the participation of gossiping and trying to rally those troops. So we we we tend to get an increase in those not so positive behaviors, even though they're not malicious, because they don't have a malicious bone in their body, really. So it that it can be really hard because they've already gone to hell and back.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I I actually do find with Amables sometimes actually having the conversation and making them feel like they're trusted and support, and we want to help them get to where they need to get to. There's a real relief because often they'll be building it up to be worse in their mind than what it actually is. So once you prick that bubble and the tension, they're really grateful and feel really more than happy to come back and change that. They want to please, so they they will do what's right with it.
SPEAKER_01Cool, excellent. Um, okay, so we have got it's now 1:30, Phoebe. So given the time frame, what would be your last thought on why it's important as leaders that we have the ability to adapt to those people in front of us?
SPEAKER_00Look, as a leader, you are a puppeteer. You are trying to make sure that you are providing the leadership, the direction, the support for people to be successful in their jobs and the clarity as to what they need to achieve. That's what it's all about. So, in order to do that, you need to work out what's going to push the buttons, pull the strings to be able to get there. Understanding the social styles is an excellent way to do that. So if you can be making people feel trusted, supported, valued, they've got good communication that aligns to what they need, they are much more likely to retain them, they're likely to be happier in their role, and they're likely to be higher performing. What that actually looks like for an analytical, driver expressible, aimable is going to be completely different. But that is what we are all aiming to do as leaders is get the best of out of our team and put it together in a as a collective. How about yourself?
SPEAKER_01Well, look, I think that it's really important to be able to reflect on a functioning team needs all of these different styles. We need people to have the ideas, we need people to drive, we need people to audit, we need people to be the glue of holding the team together. And as a leader, being aware of these different styles and also being aware of your own, I think really allows us to link in to getting the best out of the people in their natural state, if that makes sense. Like those those amiable people, you ask them to plan the Christmas gifts each year, and they're gonna be, oh my god, that's the best thing ever. Whereas if you give that to a direct person, they're like, I just do not have time for this. This is a waste of my time. So being able to pull on those strengths and capitalise and give people projects, tasks, etc., in in areas that that that motivates them, I think really does start to then add value to how they feel about the organization. I also think that it's really important for an organization to be aware of the demographics that they have so that they know if they've got a team full of amiable people, they go and put a team leader in there who's a a direct or a driver without doing some bridge building, that it's likely to all fall apart. So who are you setting up to fail you? So I think it's really important for us to just be real and honest without what the makeup of the team is. Yeah, also be mindful of who you're recruiting into your roles. If you have an auditor role, workplace health and safety compliance auditor, and you get somebody in there that is expressive and your high ideas, etc., chances are you might not have a match to getting the task done. So I think just an overall awareness is really important for all functions that we go through as leaders to get the right people into the roles so that we set them up to succeed, that we have a mix of everything and that we can pivot when we do need to have these robust or difficult conversations so that we get the best out of the person and the outcome.
SPEAKER_00100%. Yeah, definitely. As a final, just to finish, there was quite an important case that came through regarding sick leave. Do you just want to give a quick summary on that, G?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. I thought I read this one at some ungodly hour in the morning. Okay, I wake up and I check my emails and I usually get the case update files and I go, oh, that's exciting. Not many other people find it exciting, but I do. And this one happened late March, so only very, very recently, where an employee who had been with an organization for about eight years was terminated, lodged an unfair dismissal claim, and was awarded about $30,000 for an unfair dismissal claim on the basis that the employer had a thought or felt that the employee was falsifying their sick leave record. So this employee took a period of sick leave for about six weeks, had medical certificates, but the employer had it in their mind, going by what happened in the transcript, that the medical certificates didn't validate the amount of time that the employer was having off. So they've gone from zero to euro, made it an assumption and a decision that the employer was falsifying their sick leave records, terminated the employee, hence have now been awarded to or ordered to pay the employee $30,000 for an unfair dismissal claim. But the key takeaways is quite often employers are so frightened of what we can ask for, how much evidence, what do we do when we're not sure? That we go into 50 shades of grey, not in a good way, and we start making assumptions because we're too afraid to ask um the hard questions and be really clear in our. Yes, there's no definition of reasonable person at all, but an employer can ask if the evidence is not satisfactory. So if the employee is taking a period of days off and has just got a certificate, you can ask the employee to provide further information about the duration, you know, or the extent of and you can do that in a couple of ways. You know, you can ask the employee information from their doctor. You could give them a letter to take to their doctor with questions, if it was good organized, you're an independent medical assessment of that person, particularly if you had concerns if they were coming back into the workplace and maybe not at full functionality. So I guess that the key takeaway from this case is don't make an assumption and act on an assumption and terminate an individual for what you believe to be fraudulent use of sick leave or falsifying sick leave records. Have the conversation, ask the questions in and around providing evidence of that would satisfy you as the employer, provided you're coming at it from a place of curiosity, not a place of assumption and wanting to find the employee at fault.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, just with that, getting the extra information is not being nosy or needing to know people's personal or private details, but it is around about needing information as to whether the person can do the job. So, for example, you might know that the person has hurt them now being given four weeks off, and you might be able to say, get them to go to the GP and you might provide them with a letter just confirming we understand that there's been an injury. However, we'd like to confirm that we are happy to pay for a taxi to get them to work and from work. The work is going to be conducted on the ground floor, they will be able to have it elevated. Is there any can we provide suitable duties or is there a possibility the person can come return back to work in that situation? Now it's up to the doctor may say no, and there may be mental health issues and things, and they don't need to give a reasoning behind, but you can certainly provide more information or more specifics around the duties in the job. We do that probably more on work cover, but you certainly could do it, particularly if they are critical to a project and you think they're not wanting to come in just because they've been difficult. Obviously, you you can sort of seek some more information. We often have it happening in the reverse when people want to come back to work and we're like we get a nervous twitch, we're like, we don't think you're ready to come yet. And that's when we want to get that independent medical evaluation.
SPEAKER_01Also, particularly with the the shortage of the availability of medical appointments. I mean, let's be real, it is difficult to get a physical appointment with a doctor at short notice when you are sick. Yes, there are online doctors, but then you have the employers potentially that are like, well, that's easy. Anyone can get a medical certificate from an online doctor, and I don't particularly like that. I was dealing with a client the other day, their employee had given them a stat deck to explain a period of 10 days' absence. But the correlation between the events that the employee was saying that was happening to them, and then saying, Oh, I haven't been able to get an appointment with the doctor, a reasonable person would have said, if this is happening, you should be in the emergency department. So a stat deck doesn't really add up. So the employee's asking for reasonable information in and around the fact that you're saying this has happened, but you're saying that you haven't attended a medical facility, you're not able to give us a duration of how long you're going to be waiting for. So they're all very reasonable questions. So I think very, I guess, in summarizing, don't be afraid to ask for additional information, but do it from a place of curiosity, not from a place of wanting to catch the employee out. And do it for a genuine reason.
SPEAKER_00For work-related reasons, I think. But look again, yeah, if you've ever got any of those questions, please, the ongoing clients, that's where you pick up the phone and you're like, this is a situation, how should I handle it? And we can definitely support you in those situations.
SPEAKER_01So absolutely. Thank you so much. Thank you, Dee. If anybody has any thoughts on what topics they'd like us to run through with these sessions, please shoot us an email because sometimes we think that all this is a great topic, but it may not be hitting the mark for any of those clients. So we'd love to hear your feedback about what you want us to talk about because it makes our life a lot easier, to be honest. 100%. Excellent. Okay, thank you so much. Thank you.