HR Dynamics Podcast
The HR Dynamics Podcast is where we talk all things people, performance, and workplace culture. Join our team as we share real stories, helpful tips, and down-to-earth advice to make managing HR easier and more effective for Australian businesses.
HR Dynamics Podcast
HR After Dark – The Office: Boundaries
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In this episode, Ellie Burke, HR Consultant and Phoebe Kitto, Director of HR Dynamics, dive into The Office and unpack one of the biggest themes running through the show – boundaries (or the complete lack of them).
The Office is a perfect example of what happens when boundaries aren’t clearly set or respected in the workplace.
They explore:
- How unclear boundaries can lead to confusion, favouritism and conflict
- The difference between a fun culture and an unprofessional one
The episode brings it back to real workplaces, highlighting how strong, clear boundaries actually create safer, more respectful and higher-performing teams.
Because while The Office makes it funny… in real life, it’s where things can go very wrong.
Okay, so so excited to have Ali uh on our podcast, HR After Dark, um, and looking forward to hearing about what you have been watching. Ali, tell us.
SPEAKER_01I watch a lot of TV shows, um, too many, probably, but what I always come back to is the American version of The Office. I think it's awesome. Um, and it can be really painful to watch as a HR person because obviously we see um our beloved Michael Scott is a very good show of what not to do in a lot of situations. Um, but it is. Do you watch the English one when it first? I haven't I haven't tried it. I tried it once, I think, and I got about five minutes in, and I was like, I can't do it. Um but I know it's the OG, so I do respect it, but I yeah. I need to try the Australian one though, apparently. That one's quite good.
SPEAKER_00So um Beck and I did the Australian one. Um, we did a podcast on that. Um and I hadn't seen the American. I think because I used to watch the English one, yeah. I was uh it took me a while to get used to the Australian one and the American one. So, but I I jumped in and had a quick look um at the what you're um at the scene you're interested in. So tell us about what you have chosen to talk about from the American office. So give us a bit of a setup of the scene, the characters, and what's happening.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, for sure. So it's probably a tricky one because at the same time as I'm looking at this from a HR perspective, I also want to watch it as a comedy perspective. Um, so we've got a couple of very interesting characters in the office. Uh, two of two or three of the main characters is Dwight, who is he's pretty hard to sum up. He's just a bit of an oddball. Um, and he gets very defensive, very um invested, I guess, in his work. Um and he can't really take a joke too easily. And he sits right next to Jim, who is the office clown, he's a comedian. Um he is a good worker, but he sort of has a bit of um fun and um almost a bit of a mocking tone with a lot of things he does.
SPEAKER_00And then I would say that you'd say that a Jim is your classic expressive personality. Yes, yeah. Um, and that you'd say Dwayne would be maybe a an analytical, amable Dwight Wood. Uh Dwight, rather, Dwight, yeah, not Dwayne, Dwight.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, Dwight is he's very analytical, he's very follow the rules. Um, so he he does like things to be done in the right way. Um he structured. Yeah, he actually volunteers for um like the sheriff's office or whatever they have over there, and and he takes that role very seriously. Um so yeah, he he's very structured, he's he's very um no funny business, which obviously there's some interesting dynamics that pop out of that.
SPEAKER_00So uh you know, if you're looking at the social styles, you're looking at complete opposites. You've got the um uh the the thinkar, slow-paced, um analytical personality compared to the expressive, fast-paced, you know, talking personality in there. Yeah, exactly. Often an interesting combination to have in workplace dynamics.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it is especially interesting with those two because they are friends in a way. Like it's sort of that classic um, you know, sort of hate to love each other, um, because they do have a lot of these very childish sort of banter and and childish issues where we often see Dwight running to the manager, Michael Scott, to say, you know, Jim did this, blah, blah, blah. And and, you know, he he sort of wants the authority to come in and sort of tell off and apply those rules that he loves. Um and it it is hard because Jim is such a lovable guy, he's so funny, he he does put on things that, you know, does set up the entire office to laugh at Dwight's reactions because we know sort of what that's gonna bring out in Dwight. Um, so it is funny to watch, but it's also, you know, you do sort of feel for Dwight, apart although he is quite frustrating as a character, so you do feel for him because he is getting this um sort of something going against what he values in the workplace. It's a little bit about the geek against the cool guy, isn't it? 100%, 100%. And there's actually a a Jim's pranks are absolutely infamous from the show. Um and he does do this prank where he comes in dressed as Dwight. So he sort of has Dwight's shirt colour on, he's got his glasses on, he makes these jokes. He has a he found a watch at the you know, dollar store or whatever they call it, um, with a calculator on it, and he brings that in. So he he goes the whole bit and he really invests and and yeah, it does have that sort of mocking tone, but it is funny, and it's sort of this weird dynamic between the two.
SPEAKER_00So we know we shouldn't laugh because it's kind of being mean, um, but we can't help but laugh.
SPEAKER_01Exactly, exactly. And I think this is one of the big things in Australian workplaces as well. We've we love a gag, we love to that's how we build a lot of our relationships, is you know, the banter and the Sass and all this sort of stuff that we bring into workplace. So um and how much is too far exactly.
SPEAKER_00And the bit that I like, so I really liked it when Jim um wrapped up all of Dwayne's um table, chairs, everything on his desk and Christmas paper. I thought that was really funny.
SPEAKER_01I love that one. Yeah. But I feel like that that's a prank in itself. But then when Dwight sort of goes, ha ha, very funny, and chucks his briefcase on the desk, it turns out his desk has actually been moved and he's just built this you know fake desk. So it is sort of that line of, you know, when does it go too far? And and it all kind of comes to a head. There's one episode where um Toby, the HR um sort of person, I guess, for the office, which not a fair representation of HR people in the office, I would say. We are a lot more fun than Toby is made out to be. Um, but he pulls out this massive stack of complaints that Dwight has put in of all these pranks that have built up over time. And it sort of has this point where um you can see Jim reflecting on everything as it sort of adds up.
SPEAKER_00Um and there's I think at one stage he does say, doesn't he? Like they don't feel so funny when you just read them all off one after the other. So so some of those things I I I I made notes. Um I I wrote them down. Um so one of them was that um he uh whenever Dwayne typed in his name, it turned to a diaper. White, white dwight. Whenever Dwight typed in his name in the computer, it came up as diaper. Yes. Snappy in Australian. Um, and Jim's quite proud that was just a macro that he did.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um I I I again also very childishly laughed at that. I thought we can't not. Um they he put a a bloodied glove in his drawer and told it that he was a murderer. Um was another thing. Oh, and the other one that I really liked was he he moved his desk closer and closer to the copier. So it was but he just didn't like inch by inch. So he didn't realise. It's a bit like um did you ever read the uh book The Twits by Ronald Doc uh Ronald Dial? Maybe as a maybe as a kid. Yeah, and they and they kind of make these changes slowly over time, um and they end up living it glued to the roof upside down. Um but it it's um it's those small changes that we don't see. But yeah, but like it really it is so when we're looking at it from an HR perspective, I guess the issue is when is funny not funny? Because office banter having a joke is part of what you know we spend a lot of time at work. We ought to be able to laugh and have a good time. So when is that line that you've crossed it? When is it bullying? When is uh when are you uh encroaching on people's psychosocial safety, as we like to say? Um, and and how do we manage that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, 100%. And I think that's the the thing that we do fall into the trap of, especially as bystanders, because with the office, that's what we are in this scenario, is where the bystander's watching on between these two dynamics and and finding it funny because that's sort of how it's set up to be. Um, but when you look at the the distress that it does does cause, Dwight is quite substantial, you know, like he um he does have all of these complaints that it comes to a head at the end of a point, and you know, he's concerned about how it looks for um his reputation with his manager with Michael, because you know, there's all of these things where he's being made out to look the fool in front of all of his um teammates as well. So the tricky thing is that you know, especially with um these sorts of scenarios, it can be hard to understand when someone is saying no, like stop or oh, you've got me sort of thing, or when they're going, no, I don't like this, and actually pushing back because a lot of people don't feel like they can or feel like they're heard. Um I think the most important thing here though is Dwight does repeatedly show that he's not enjoying it, he's not joining in, he's not laughing with the team afterwards, yeah, and it is causing him distress. Um so it's not home and he's not finding it funny. Exactly. Yeah, but Jim, he has his own motivations for why he wants to do this, he wants to impress, you know, the receptionist Pam because he has some feelings for her. He wants to be the funny guy. He wants to be the funny guy, he wants to sort of be able to have this fun and not take work too seriously, because I think that's a big thing for him is you know, this is not that important of a geek to him, but to Dwight it really is. So he does want to make light of it and doesn't really take into account how it actually does affect Dwight. Yeah, um he sees it as sort of a personal achievement when he gets him.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and and I think you know, the way that we see this playing out in the office is, you know, just pulling silly pranks on the apprentice or the approaching or you know, hiding their lunch, or you know, moving stuff around on people's desk, or and you know, just you know, just silly small pranks, and but actually they they can be quite it's a bit schoolyard stuff, isn't it? Um and or you know, mocking something that someone likes, be it cats or dogs or a fashion. Of course, or that type of thing. So I guess it comes down to um from an HR perspective and and as leaders, how should we manage this? Um look, I think the first thing that they need to do, that you need to do in your business is well, is is a legal responsibility. You need to have your psychosocial uh risk and control register in place so that we're outlining these are things that could cause stress in the workplace and how we manage them. Um, and in part of that, it's if you're feeling um if you've got a grievance or you've got a concern, it should be, you know, this is how you can raise it. And they need to know that they can talk to their supervisor or their manager or HR or whatever that escalation process is going to be. Um, you know, some or large organizations have that right through to our whistle-blowing hotline that it can be. Um, small organisations won't have that. But I think it's about making sure that people are aware of their rights and that they know that if something's making them feel uncomfortable, it's okay. They can come and they can either talk to the person or they can um and try and um resolve the issue, or they can come to a supervisor or manager and they will be heard. Um, the next thing I think that you have to do is, you know, you have to have um optics on this sort of behaviour happening in the workplace, yeah. Um and just make sure that it is okay. Like if genuinely these guys are just playing pranks and they're really enjoying it and they're both okay with it, then there's no reason that you need to stop it, but you may want to one-on-one check on it, you may want to see if it's starting to go a bit out of hand, how it's impacting those other people that are around, like what is appropriate and what is not appropriate. No, you workplaces are complex environments now with different values, different belief systems. Um, and so you know, what could be funny to some people, you know, may be offensive to the younger, older, different religions, you know, or the different backgrounds that you've been have in the workplace. So having some sensitivity around that. Um, and then certainly if we realise that someone is, you know, really upset about it, you know, you have to take strong action and you you have to really investigate the situation and you have to give feedback to the perpetrator or the person. Um, sometimes that can just be done in a soft way. Um, it can be just uh bringing it to attention that this behaviour is not appropriate and that they need to change their behavior and help them understand the impact it's having on the others, on the other person, um, and making sure you're documenting that down. Um, in some cases it's going to be more formal. Again, it's going to be a case-by-case scenario wanting to resolve the situation and we don't want to destroy the relationship. And I think that's tricky as well. I think that's sometimes why people don't put a complaint in is because they they're worried of the fallout that will happen because 80% of that person they could actually really enjoy or they know they work with, it's just that 20%. And they're worried if they or 10%. And if they bring up that, you know, small part to it, is that going to deteriorate the rest of the relationship? So it really does need some sensitivity um around it. Some of the, oh, he doesn't mean it, you know, that's just gym, you know. Yeah, everyone, everyone has that happen to them when they first start. Yeah, yeah. Wasn't as bad as the last guy. Those are not helpful things to say.
SPEAKER_01No, definitely not. And I think that's that's a really big thing as well, because a lot of that talk and a lot of that sort of um dialogue that happens is is not from the business leaders, it's from the team, you know, and that's the other thing that we don't see in in this environment in in the show is that there is that accountability on everyone in the team to talk about it and to call that out. Um, you know, there's even times where you'll see the other the other members of the office gather around and sort of watch the fallout that happens. So even just starting a conversation.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and then that they are potentially liable if they are um you know enabling that behaviour as bystanders. So it's like, well, you know, why are you not calling that or you know, why are you not following up on that or supporting the person? So you know, everyone's got a responsibility um to create a safe workplace. And what's a safe workplace to me may be different to being a safe workplace to you, to somebody else. Um, but you know, these things can go really nasty. You know, you staff now um had the right to be able to put a direct stock bullying complaint into fair work. Um, they can also lodge um through workplace health and safety, psychosocial stress, they can go to work cover and put a psychological claim in. Now, all of these things just create, you know, tension, um, downtime and productivity, days off. Um, it can relate, uh, result in you know, uh increased staff turnover. Um, it, you know, and it they can be quite costly, you know, to it costly both from a mental time perspective as well as a financial cost. You know, you're having to call us and get some guidance and support uh to navigate these situations. So, you know, they can escalate really, really quickly. Um, so like we don't want to be the office police. You know, it's good to have good relationships with your workmates, it's good to have a joke. Um, I do think what I agree with what you said, Ali, like the Australian nature is a bit of a Larrican, have a bit of a joke. We laugh at ourselves. Yeah, but we just have to be very aware as to um is this appropriate, where could this go, and and keeping a bit of a lid on it. I think that's important.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, 100%. And I think the the the last point I'll make about this scenario as well is the argument that is sort of given against you know, calling out this behavior is that, you know, this person that's receiving this behavior, Dwight, is he's annoying. He, you know, he is a pay a bit of a pain for the rest of the members of the office. So there's a lot of this, he had it coming. And I think that that can sometimes be almost something that managers will overlook because they go, you know what, I I don't want to manage the difficult behaviors I'm seeing from the person who's being bullied in this scenario. So, you know, he has it coming, it's it, I'm just gonna leave it. If he doesn't want to receive that sort of action, then he should do XYZ. Um yeah, exactly. And I think that's the other call out is just you know, to make sure that your managers are managing all of their staff correctly. Um it's not just about the person who is engaging in these sorts of things, it's also about you know, looking at the other person and you know, is there stuff that we can work with them on to ensure that they're protecting themselves in the workplace as well and and performing correctly and and you know, with the right conduct.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, acting in a respectful and professional manner. And I I I think too, this goes beyond the workplace too. Yeah. So it does happen, you know, of people having drinks after work or social gatherings and social media, you know, that's another whole different part. Um, but there's been some very clear cases that have come through the commission to say that just because it happens out of hours doesn't mean it's not bullying, it's not inappropriate behaviour, it's not exactly psychosocial, unsafe work environment. So the next Monday they come back into the office. So be on the front foot of these situations. If you have got staff that you know are that sort of more gym um and are expressive and a bit of a larrican and a bit of a prank person, just have some awareness as to their behaviour and the impact that it is having upon others. Um, and jumping in early and just making sure that you're acting you're between the lines um and things aren't getting a bit blurry or you're not doing a bit of off-road driving with this can save you a lot of pain in the future.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_00Great. Okay, well, I I'm looking forward to catching up with you again, Ali. It's good to know that you are an avid TV watcher or show watcher.
SPEAKER_01Probably too much.
SPEAKER_00Exactly what we need for uh the uh HR After Dark. So um we'll talk again soon. Sounds good. Fantastic. Thanks, bye bye.