Beestie Besties with J & Lo
Beestie Besties with J & Lo is a monthly menagerie of updates, author interviews, visits with our pals, inspiring tales of best friends taking big leaps, and more; a delightful blend of nonsense and nonfiction. Jess Neiding (J) is the CFO and chief editor and nonsense maker of Wildebeest Publishing Company, while Laura Thorne (Lo) is the CEO and nonfiction queen — together they make an unstoppable pair who giggle and cry their way through any of life and business’s challenges, as any besties should. Tune in for the latest in self and indie-publishing, fun chats and excerpts from books published in the Wildebeest Publishing HERD, educational snippets from our industry expert friends, and other random visits from everyone from our mothers to other Beestie Besties.
Beestie Besties with J & Lo
E10 - Reviews Demystified, Bob Marley Coffee Dates, & the Truth About Getting Your Book Noticed
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Whether you're publishing your first book or your fifth, understanding the world of book reviews can help your book reach more readers. This week, Jess and Laura welcome their first industry guest, Joe Walters, for an inside look at what every author should know about book reviews.
What's in this episode:
• Friends Are Here segment with Joe Walters, founder of Independent Book Review and author of The Truth About Book Reviews, sharing:
• What makes meaningful reviews and how authors can use them effectively.
• How his platform differs from others.
• The difference between blurbs, media reviews, and customer reviews.
• Timing your review requests.
• The red flags to avoid with paid or swapped reviews.
• Laura shares highlights from her whirlwind weekend at the ESRI User Conference, while Jess talks about her healing retreat in Mexico.
• Wildebeest Updates: Get the latest on our upcoming Authorpreneur Workshop on August 22 at CNY Arts Center in Fulton, NY.
Hello, welcome to Beastie Besties with Jay and Lo, the podcast where we share publishing updates, laughs, and all the new news in our world. Today we have our first industry guest on, who is Joe Walters. He's the founder of Independent Book Review, and he'll be joining us to talk about all things reviews. So stay around for that.
SPEAKER_01Super excited to talk to Joe. He is awesome. Absolutely. A lot of fun. So yeah. So I mean, I don't know. Have we ever told people? I mean, I know they know we're heavy on the puns, but uh do they know what new news is?
SPEAKER_00Probably not. I don't know. The new news are like, why are you repeating yourself?
SPEAKER_01Like Gary Ganoo, no ganoose is good ganoo, or is whatever you said. Yeah, new is another name for Wilderbeast. Wilderbeast.
SPEAKER_00Wilderbeast. It's funny you said that because I actually said Wilderbeast. I was thinking about that yesterday in my brain.
SPEAKER_01Everybody calls it Wild Beast. Wild Beast. So I think we could go Wilderbeast. I like Wilder Beast. Jessica loves Wilderbeast. So it's great to see you again, pal. It's been uh been a few weeks, been a few weeks. So, you know, as some of you may know, I've had some family stuff happening. I may have mentioned on the last ep. So we have plenty of things to be grateful for right now, it seems. Would you like to start us off? Sure. All right.
SPEAKER_00There's so many things, like you said, but we like to pull different ones out of the air, especially for the podcast. So it challenges us to think of more than just the regular health happiness and all that. So patience. I am grateful for patience, and that doesn't mean that I have it all of the time. I'm grateful for the times I do have it. So I got stuck in the airport and for the second or third time this year with a storm and ended up with over 24 hours and no sleep. And yeah, I was grateful for the amount of patience that I was able to pull out, and then was really observant of the people who had none and and uh admired those who had lots. So grateful for patience when we can get it. I'm also very grateful for pet adoption services. It's kind of a random one, but our friend Tiffany, her she lost her dog a few weeks ago, and uh they went out and got a new one. And I'm just grateful. So it was just on my mind. Uh you also have a friend named Brooke, I think, that has uh pet adoption.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, third space coffee up in um Bentonville, Arkansas. It's tied into a pet adoption center, so you can go get like a delicious latte or some sort of fancy schmancy coffee and play with puppies and kitties. It's amazing. Yeah, I I maybe get over there and see it now that it's done.
SPEAKER_00I see the pictures from them all the time, and I'm like, oh, they have I don't know, I mean, all dogs and cats are and all that are cute, but like for whatever reason, their their photographer of their animals is really good or something.
SPEAKER_01It might be Brooke. She does it all. She does videography, photography. Brooke Brooke is the coolest.
SPEAKER_00She's exactly and my third one is new friends, which you know I've never even met Brooke, but I kind of consider her a friend. So new friends and associated friends. I met a new friend during my trip, my travels, and getting stuck in the airport. And while I could have gotten my four hours of sleep instead, I talked to a new friend from Canada for four hours in the middle of the night. So I'm grateful for that for sure. And I also went to the Esri conference last week in San Diego and I made some other new friends there as well. So it was a week of new friends, so that's why I'm grateful for that.
SPEAKER_01What Esri conference? That's a science one. Could you tell us a little bit more about that?
SPEAKER_00So Esri is one of the largest mapping companies in the world. So a lot of science and engineering, lots of smart techie people go to this conference. And so my other podcast, Environmental Professionals Radio, we were recording a live episode there. And it was actually the longest amount of time I've ever spent with Nick, and I learned a lot about him. Cool, cool. Maybe that's why patience is my joy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I you say patience, I'm like, isn't that just a song by Guns N' Roses? Because I don't know what else it means.
SPEAKER_00Um but the coolest thing about the Ezri, I mean, there was lots of cool things about the Esri conference, especially seeing some people I hadn't seen in a while, making new friends, all of the cool work that people are doing. I mean, this maps save the world, literally. And being able to see how things relate spatially is so important to environmental causes, to to how the train works, to see when your food's getting delivered, all this stuff. And um, so that's really awesome. But then Jack Dangerman is the the owner of this company and his wife Laura, and they it's a pr I know he's the coolest name. Jack Dangerman. Coolest name, but he is a billionaire and he's like the nicest person. Like this, he's wonderful. He's getting up there, but he still shows up and does the opening presentation, and he goes around the conference and talks to people, and uh he throws a party. I've never been to a billionaire's party until the last week, and it was like going to Disney World for the day. It was awesome. So cool. There's food everywhere, bands everywhere, music, street performers, food, all included. It was amazing, absolutely amazing.
SPEAKER_01It is so wild. I remember when I went to, you know, back in my past life, when I went to that Halloween party at the Playboy mansion and all of a sudden, like Wu Tang showed up and was just playing music. I'm like, so this is how the other half lives. All right. I'm not mad about it. Yeah, no. That's great. It it's really cool that friendship kind of topped your list this week. It was really sort of all about that. I mean, mine as well. I don't know. Did you have anything else you wanted to add just before I started busting into this? No, go for it. Okay, sweet. I am also grateful for humans. I went to, in the middle of going back to Florida to help the family, I went to this retreat in Mexico, which it was kind of like I don't want to say spiritual retreat, but we were doing breath work and shadow work and just sweat lodges and different ceremonies and things. And at first there's a group chat going, and I was like, oh, I don't know if I want to go, I'm not in the right headspace, my brother just died, like I don't want to bring the mood of the group down. I had the best time. It's the absolute best time. I know. There's 14 women. It was the most chill vacation I've ever been on. Claudia from a Marcy and Elizabeth from Cosmic T here in Denver. Could not have been cooler facilitators. Like, it was it was just absolutely the best. If y'all can ever go on an alma retreat with these guys, two thumbs ridiculously high up, could not recommend it more. I am also very grateful for Danny Gonzalez. Like, I don't know what my mom and I would have done without him. He helped plan Nathan's celebration of life and handled everything, you know, as far as getting the catering lined up and he put on a slideshow. He put music to it, he put it together. It was perfect and it was just really, really nice to see all the pictures and hear people's stories and things like that. And I'm gonna go back to content because I I know I talked about Widows Bay last time. I'm really excited that there's some good TV and movies out there. Like I just watched Michael and Project Hail Mary, and I loved them both. I and I I don't like space. It's I'm very scared of space. It makes me nervous and anxious, so I never watch space movies. And I loved this one, it was awesome.
SPEAKER_00So that is awesome. Michael was awesome. I haven't watched Project Hail Mary yet, but Michael was really good. I had just gone to the MJA Broadway too, and that was also awesome.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, you know, as I said when we were talking, it's he was my the first love of my life, my first crush. I mean, going through all these pictures with my brother, the my Michael Jackson t-shirt game was on point back in the 80s. Like they were I wish I could get them in my size now, they're really cool. But yeah, it was so good, right? Just uh we watched a bunch of behind-the-scenes stuff too. If you haven't done that with Jafaru, he's oh yeah, he is he's gonna be on the cover of People's Sexiest and within the next five, ten years. That kid is amazing, or young man, excuse me. He's fantastic.
SPEAKER_00Well, we're of the age where we call everyone children and kids now. Which I am grateful that we were of an age to be able to witness and enjoy Michael and his full glory, as well as Prince and others from the 80s. I mean, just the best. But uh to keep this thing rolling, intentions. It's always intentional intentions. We are keeping with our episodes. Yeah, what are those? I found this one from the actual retreat. It says at the top our trip intentions, underlined like a little school kid.
SPEAKER_01If it were mine, I'd have doodles in the corners too, like stars.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so there there's a actually, I don't know if you could see that, but there is a little monster goobler thing there. Of course, of course. So of course there are some some very serious. I think it's mapche, actually.
SPEAKER_01Did I tell you there's a family of raccoons that live in a sewer on my street now? Oh no, like not Jimothy, unfortunately. I would love to have some Jimothy up in here, but the I was walking Dottie the other night and a mama raccoon and five babies ran out and they just stood there and looked at me. I didn't get the mapche. But it I'm like, well, and there's a skunk apparently on the lamb in my neighborhood too, so I just have a little wilderness situation going on.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, should I revisit this? Please. And then people, so we've talked about intentions a lot, and I don't know if we've actually gone through an actual full list, but this is where it started. And so spending, mindfulness, and acceptance. So that was about getting over fears of spending money. You're starting a business, you're gonna spend some money. Yeah, exactly. Four agreements, which always tops the list. Yeah. Especially don't think, take things personally.
SPEAKER_01This has been very hard for me lately. Yeah. I've been I've been really struggling with that one.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, which is why it's so important, you know? Mm-hmm. Morning grounding and anxiety checks.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Relationship with time. I think this is yours causing your own chaos.
SPEAKER_01To be fair, when we wrote that list out, I was causing my own chaos. Now the chaos is a little bit outside of me these days.
SPEAKER_00So just be sometimes.
SPEAKER_01I'm doing really well with that, oddly.
SPEAKER_00And we actually have this twice be present and slow down. So clearly we were needing to just sit for a minute.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Eat fruit slash drink mocktails.
SPEAKER_01So that's how we were going to either game eat our fruit or drink the mocktails, one or the other.
SPEAKER_00Which we shared with the geckos. The other one was just shoulders. I think we both were just like hunching. So I don't know. Shoulders.
SPEAKER_01This is my first great picture.
SPEAKER_00This is just really a great starter list for intentions for anyone who might need them. And then the last one was mapche. So that's what my picture was. Uh be strong and vulnerable.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because weren't we saying like raccoons do this when they tell you they want to be friends and they do this when they're trying to look big and frighten you off. So we always said like mapache is kind of our buzzword for be strong yet vulnerable.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Exactly. Like it you can you can be both.
SPEAKER_01So and I think those are all pretty valid still. I mean, I'm doing way better with my shoulders and just being, but some of the other things.
SPEAKER_00Never taking anything personal ever again. That's not, you know, like in the let them theory she says, like you're gonna say it over and over and over. You're gonna say let them 500 times. Like you're not, it doesn't work once.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it is hard in and dealing with some pretty heavy stuff lately and kind of having to like sit back and let other people take the wheel, or you know, let Jesus take the wheel, whatever it is that you wanna say. It's you know, when you're going through stressful situations, whatever they are, it's really hard to remember to not take things personally and not make assumptions and things like that. And you and I talk about it all the time, like instead of writing these narratives in our head that are not serving us or whatnot, we just start writing stories. Right.
SPEAKER_00I mean, who was there was just a person the other day. Oh, I was supposed to meet someone for for coffee and they didn't show. And then it was like, okay, I'm gonna withhold feeling any type of way about this until I find out why, you know?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. And it's it's hard.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it all comes down to ego. Our ego jumps up and says, What about me? How come they left me? Me, me, me, you know? And it's so it's really just like putting that little goblin to rest.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes, yeah. I just wish I could put my goblin to rest before I scolded him and whatnot, like, go to sleep.
SPEAKER_00And then, all right, into our news and our authorpreneur stuff. We have some updates to the workshop. So we've had to kind of do a little adjustments. It is filling up, so there are spots available if you'd still like to join us in the central New York area. And uh, we had someone traveling to come who's not gonna be able to make the travel. So I'm going to step in and we're going to do two sessions on setting up your business and also your marketing plans. So if anyone tells you that these are blueprints that you can just follow from someone else, this is false information. Uh, we're going to work together on making plans that work specifically for you that still incorporate best practices from the industry. And as a multiple business owner, I hope that you'll appreciate the advice that I have to share with you because I've been through a lot and I'm ready to share it.
SPEAKER_01I don't know how you balance it all. I really don't. I mean, and it's not like you're like doing, you know, like maybe publishing and then book reviews. So you're like, no, I'm gonna go over here and do science. I'm gonna go over here and do a little behind-the-scenes movie work, you know. So you are, you've got a lot of hats, lady.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, my ultimate goal in life is to have no regrets. And I feel like I want to explore all these things. So if I don't do them, I might regret it one day that I didn't actually see what it's like to do this or that or the other thing.
SPEAKER_01You know, it's really interesting that you say that because I also have that mentality, but it was more like volcano boarding and skydiving and stuff like that. And then I had to get some metal parts, and I'm like, oh, maybe slow it down a little bit. Like, ease off the adrenaline pedal a little bit there, Jess. You can you could just be, as we learned in our intentions sheet.
SPEAKER_00Yes. However, we still need to ride some more horses. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you come out here, come out in the fall. More horses. More horses. So we still have uh Georgia Popoff, who is awesome, uh, accomplished writer and a member of American Pen Women. She'll be speaking about imposter syndrome and mindset, which is critical. And then Roxanne Boysick will be coming and talking about table setups and vending and getting your brand together, which is also all critical things. That's the thing. When you become an author, you're not done. You've got so much work to do. When I was speaking to Megan Davidson, her book is about to come out, a duet, she was like, There's so many things. There's so many things. And I'm like, Yeah, there's so many things. Like you're going to be overwhelmed.
SPEAKER_01But it's like anything. I mean, look at like your iPhone or whatever. Like it can come out, it can be great, but it's gonna require updates. Like every no matter what you are, you're gonna have to keep pivoting or adjusting, or you know, like I mean, that's so true.
SPEAKER_00Like you can't think that you have to do everything all at once, you know. Yeah, you've got to tackle something, and reviews is a great place to start. So we have more information coming up.
SPEAKER_01Truly, truly. I mean, yeah, exactly. I mean, it's like buying a house, you know, it's like I can't get it exactly the way I want it right away. You just have to do a little bit here, a little bit there. I mean, and well, speaking of houses, do I hear someone knocking on the door? Is our friend here? I do believe we have a friend joining us. Hello, friend. Hey.
SPEAKER_00Hi, Joe. So this is Joe Walters, it's the founder of Independent Book Review, and Joe has we met at AWP this year, which was super awesome. Joe came by the booth and chatted with us, and then we came over and talked about book reviews and what they do. So, how about you give the audience the the spiel on what you do?
SPEAKER_02Sure, yeah. So I'm Joe. I started Independent Book Review in 2018. Um I used to work for publishing houses. I got my start for Inkwater Press in Portland, Oregon. Um, and I was a marketing director, even though I didn't know what I was doing. So I I was a reader, I was a writer, I had worked for literary magazines, and I just wanted a job in publishing, and I saw that they were hiring. And so I I applied, got the job, and kind of learned on my feet how to get books read. And unfortunately, I just couldn't stay there any longer. I'm originally from Pennsylvania, and so I was running out of money, and so I just had to move home, but I didn't want to quit publishing. So I learned what I learned while I was there and just knew that indie authors, small press, self-published authors needed more platforms to get reviewed. And so I decided to start one. Uh, and so by now, eight years later, we reviewed over like 2,400 books, something like that. It's been a really great run. We got 30 reviewers on the team, uh, publish a new review, publish two new reviews every day, got starred reviews, bookshop uh book lists, a couple newsletters. I just stay busy and I keep talking about small press and self-published books, and it is a a dream of a job.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, it sounds like it. I mean, I can't tell you the last time I read an actual book, just because everything's besides for work, you know, when you get into it. It's yeah, it it's I'd love to be able to get some more reviews out there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm lucky enough to not have to read every book now. In in the early aughts, I was I was reading everything, um, no matter what genre came in. And just a couple years ago, I was like, I think I want to be done now. I think I want to choose what I read. And so now I'm kind of I dabble. I I get to read what I want now, which is really sweet, and I send all the other books to to my wonderful reviewers. That's awesome. That's awesome. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_01Do you take any like any genres? Is there a certain type of genre that comes in more often than others?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we take any genre. I usually recommend that people ask first if they have a really niche nonfiction genre. So I've got 30 or 30 plus reviewers. I have them tell me what they're interested in at the beginning. They fill out a sheet for what they want to read and what they have experience in. And so whenever I get a new book in, I take a look at what they like and take a look at our previous reviews and can recognize kind of what what reviewer is the right right one for each book. And so in terms of the books that we get the most of, uh, I say we are we're kind of all over the the fiction. We don't do a ton of fiction. Uh so literary fiction, we do a lot of mystery thriller, a lot of fantasy. Uh but then also, I mean, plenty of memoir. If uh you can go ahead and scroll on our website for whichever genre as a reader that you're interested in. So really it it depends. It depends on the month, it depends what people are writing at the time and what people are sending in. Uh I am one of the few people who look through our free submission inbox to see what they like, and I am biased. I love literary fiction, I love stuff that takes risks, I love nonfiction that I feel like I haven't heard that opinion yet. And so I'm a big fan of that as long as they have sweet covers. So it really depends.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I I mean, and Laura and I were just talking about this too, because I do the bulk of the editing for us, and you know, some of the books are like, Are they great? I'm like, I'm sure they're great. I'm just not the right audience for it. This because I'm a I'm like fantasy and fiction and I love those things, and they're beautifully written, you know. So I love that you kind of fine-tune the reviewer to the book because it, you know, if it's not your genre, it's not your genre and it doesn't, it's nothing against the book. So that's yeah.
SPEAKER_00I feel it works the same way for kind of awards. I've been to awards where people are like, this same type of book always wins. And it's like they only have three award judges, so they have certain things that they like.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And so what's the difference between the type of reviews that you do and Kirkus, which is like six hundred dollars just to submit, or like uh and just getting a f a review from your friend? How does it uh compare?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so we're close to Kirkis despite the price tag. So we're we're not the same price tag, we're uh lower than that. So we are like a 400 plus word review. It could be 400, could be a thousand, depends how excited the reviewer got. But we have a tagline, we go through the summary and then we give opinion. Kirkus is probably like 85% summary to 15% opinion. They've been doing it for a really long time. Booksellers and librarians are really interested in summary, they're more interested in summary than authors and publishers sometimes think, but they are really speaking to the people who are buying books for their bookstores and buying books for their libraries. They know what they they don't necessarily need the opinion. They need to know what happens in the book, and they need to decide just based on what happened in the book, uh, if that's a fit for their audience. And so we are more opinion than that. I personally like opinion. I think every reader is a real person. And so I want not only our readers to hear that a real person engaged with this in this way, but I also want authors and publishers to hear how they did. Uh so I we make sure that we have a a better mix, probably around like 60% summary to 40% opinion. And then a review from your friend, probably going up on Goodreads or Amazon or their blog. Still very helpful. Uh so our reviews don't go up on Amazon, don't go up on Goodreads. Our reviews go up on our site, and if they are uh popular, if they did a really good job on the book, and I really need to talk about it in our newsletter. We highlight it in our newsletter. So we do our own promotion behind the scenes on on social media and whatnot. While the Amazon reviews, you're trying to kind of like increase your number on there. That's more important, really. The amount of reviews that you get on Amazon or Goodreads is probably more important than just what they say. Uh what they say, I find particularly important too. Uh every buyer who buys online uh is probably looking through those reviews, trying to determine what if it's the right fit for them. And so they're very valuable. Uh they can be really short, they can be pretty vague. Um, and so what I do really is just kind of sit behind the desk and recognize that we don't want vague. We want uh if someone did something really well, we want them to be super specific about it. So it's it's not just the world building that was cool. It was that insert fantasy title town name here includes elves, dwarves, blah, blah, blah, all the all the stuff. So we want the readers to really, really know what's in there uh so they can make their own buying decisions.
SPEAKER_01No, I like that a lot because I'm a I was a big reader, but now it's a lot of audiobooks, and even the same thing with like you kind of brought into like the gaming territory for me, where it's like I like to read the reviews on that as well because they're so heavily story-based and everything now. And Laura's probably like, oh, here she goes about you know, horizon again. But it's just it's so nice to see, but then there's other things where you just kind of want to be surprised, but not so much in the book world.
SPEAKER_02But yeah, and I love it. Uh we I try to stay away from spoilers too. So it's like it's it's hard, it's a hard line to walk, of course. I my rule for my reviewers is you can talk through the summary up until about 50%. Because it's part of the reading experience. And but also the readers on my website uh don't necessarily always read every sentence. It's a it's kind of about skimming, just like it is online. When you read on a device, it is very natural to just skim. Look for your buzzwords, look for the beginning of each paragraph and try to figure your way out. So even if we did go beyond the 50%, they might not necessarily read it before they hit the buy button anyway.
SPEAKER_00So you did such a nice job, or Melissa did such a nice job on Valerie's Avian Swan songs or uh the old witches camp, her second book that just came out. And it's so nice because it does have that summary. Uh it has so many quotes and things, and you provide so much information on how to use this. So you mentioned that it doesn't go on Amazon, but when you say that, I want to clarify that it doesn't go on Amazon reviews like the listing of other people, but I can still as an author pull parts of it and put it like into my description or into like my A plus content or whatever, correct?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, there's so many ways to use our reviews, Kirkis reviews, Ford reviews. While they're not going in that customer review section, there's a section called editorial reviews on your Amazon page that you can access via KDP. Um you can also do it in Ingram Spark, you can do it in your other distributors as well. Those are the kind of the sections that you save for blurbs, testimonials, those are reviews from people like us, but also Stephen King. If you luck luck up enough to get his phone number and have him quote your book, and you obviously want to use that thing, you can put it on your cover, you can put it in your description, you can put it in the editorial review section, design graphics for it. There are so many ways to use those quotes. Uh and yeah, pool pull quotes are super important for your marketing. That was one of the first things I noticed as a publisher. It was like, all right, we got this review. It's on a website. I hope readers find it. But if readers don't find it, I need to use it somehow. Like I can't just sit there and and go to waste. You need to pull those quotes and you need to use them in your own material.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And there's so many ways to use it. You wrote a book about it. Yes, I did. Called the Truth about book reviews. So tell us what's in here.
SPEAKER_02Hell yeah. Thanks for having that. That makes me very happy. I like it.
SPEAKER_00I'm still reading it. That's like I'm I'm enjoying it so far, but I have not made it to the end yet.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah, no, it takes time. There's a lot of stuff in there. Yeah, so I I used to get the question a lot when I worked for publishing companies how do I get more reviews? And it's like, dude, I got not enough time to do this. And so once Google started working against me a little bit, I was blogging a ton. I was doing a lot of book marketing blogs. We were popping up on the first page of Google, and authors and publishers were finding our advice and finding their way to our website. And then Jim and I came along and just answers everybody's questions all the time whenever you Google something. And so I was like, I need to figure something else out. So I started the book. The book has been a long time coming, and so it's on how to get more reviews and use them to market your book. Um, but get more reviews is a little bit vague. There are I see it as three different types of reviews: those blurbs, the testimonials from Stephen King in Independent Book Review, uh, media and trade reviews, the reviews that you're getting for like publicity. So if you show up on my website, that counts kind of as a media review. If you show up on people in People magazine, if you show up in those bigger names, that's a different type of review, and you need to use a different strategy than you used for getting blurbs, and then customer reviews on Amazon and Goodreads, and those are extremely important, but in a totally different way. And so there are different strategies for each type. And so I walk you through each type, and then directly after each type, how to use them. Uh and then after that, I throw a bunch of tips at you. So, like how to design graphics with your quotes, what you do with bad reviews, uh, how do you get more good reviews? What do you do as an author with a small press as opposed to a self-published author? So there's just a bunch of stuff in there for my exact type of book marketing. I mean, I I started doing the whole thing when I was smaller and had less gray hair, and now I'm so invested in book reviews that I get so many books in my inbox every day, and I have to make the decision on which ones we should cover for free, but also how these books stand out in the first place. So I talk about the importance of covers, the importance of descriptions, the importance of getting blurbs even before you pitch me. So there are so many different things that go into making someone say yes. And so that's what my book is about.
SPEAKER_01I also like too, because you have the book that anybody can purchase on it. But then also it seems like when you have your clients, you also give them a toolkit to go home with. It's not just like here's your hat, what's your hurry? It's like, no, no, no, no, no, here's other ways. It's not just, you know, because Laura and I try and do that. We always say our author support is unheard of, you know, like a herd of wildebeest kind of.
SPEAKER_02Oh, the puns are unreal with you guys.
SPEAKER_01We are heavy, we are heavy on the puns. Pun is always intended. But yeah, it's nice when you can just go like, okay, here's some resources. Yeah, great. You have your product. Now what do you do with it? Because it's that's you know, it's like, all right, my book is written, now what do I do? So I think that's invaluable.
SPEAKER_02And there's so many pieces of advice out there. I mean, you just gotta figure out who to trust.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, one of our authors has just learned that her book is going to be published quite soon, and so she's full of questions. So we had a I had a chat with her yesterday, and you know, one of her biggest questions is reviews. She's published two books before, but a very long time ago. And you know, her questions were, where do I get them? What do how much do I pay for them? And that basically, you know, was able to tell her, well, we have these resources now in our library for authors to go look at all of the wonderful advice that you've provided on how to do this. So I was like, okay, we'll go read all that stuff that's there, come back to me. But basically, reviews are important. This is, you know, one of the key things. So I think what you're doing is so important for authors. But can you speak to that a little bit from the many years you have in publishing? Because I'm really not sure that they really understand when we tell them like your number one goal when you first get published, aside from just like selling whatever, get reviews.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, they're important for different reasons. So everyone always thinks about uh like you get a review, you get a sale. That's kind of the the most obvious way to think about it. Um, but it's not necessarily exactly correlated. Sometimes you get a review in a in an outlet, someone reads that outlet, they hit buy. Best case scenario. Absolutely. But really, reviews pile up over time. They increase your validity and recognition if you're using it in your own newsletters, in your own social media, and you're saying, I got this review today. Awesome. That is one way that they can find you and they can see that you are being talked about by real readers and that your book might be worth it to them. They might not hit by that time though. And so that's when you get the next review and the next review and the next review. And so you gotta kind of pile them up over time and uh use those pool quotes, throw them on your Amazon page, or throw them in a on your website. And when someone is wondering if they should buy your book, they're not only paying attention to those editorial reviews. They're not only paying attention to the customer reviews, but it is playing a part. So it's you might not see the exact correlation every time somebody makes a purchase, every time you get a review, you might not see the exact correlation that okay, review equals sale. But it could have played a part. It has to be all of the pieces at once. So your cover has to be awesome. It's always the first thing I lead with. The description has to be awesome, it has to really speak clearly, especially if we're talking nonfiction. It needs to be answering questions for them. It needs to be telling them that their problem is going to turn into a solution after your book is read. Um and then the reviews count too. The customer reviews, especially, the number needs to be building over time. It needs to be someone visits your Amazon page in July. There's four reviews on it because your book just came out. That's fine. We haven't built them yet. When they go back in August, after you hit them again with another piece of news, if it has 20, it's like, oh, people are reading this right now. And so that increases your chances too. And so I like it from the sales standpoint. I do think it makes a difference, even if you don't see it directly. But also it just helps on your author journey. How many times can you go into a bookstore and overhear someone talking to another reader that this book, your book, is worth reading? It is really valuable information from reader to reader that you just get to kind of sit back and and watch happen. You are not a part of this like editorial feedback. No, it's reader to reader. This is the stuff that that matters to them. And so you get to learn about yourself, your book, the way you marketed your book, and you kind of get to adjust it as time goes on. If you if you realize that you're marketing to one specific aspect that actually isn't what most reviewers are talking about, maybe you can go back into that description and maybe you can see that like oh this could be my selling point. Maybe I got it wrong the first time, or maybe I was just in a different avenue, and now I can try to switch it and test those things. So it really just teaches you about how you did. Is I'm not saying that like the reviewer is right, the reviewer is not always right, but I'm saying that they're real. Then they are they have real opinions, and that was their reading experience, and it's genuine. And so it's just it's it's both sides. It's the emotional side, it's the strategic side, and it's the sales side.
SPEAKER_01Completely. And it's and it's so its opinions are also different. You know, the three of us could read a book and I could love it, and y'all might not like it, you know. And e I see it even on reviews on films and things like that, when they they win the Oscars and they choose this film over this film. I'm like, but that other film was far superior. So it's nice to get that mix in there and whatnot. And also, too, with the specificity with the you know, the summary bits and then the opinion based on it, where it's like, okay, yeah, you can tell these people have actually read the material, and it's not just a pay-to-play situation, which I I know many people are kind of having a hard time trusting reviews because of that sort of like you know, on Amazon you'll see duplicates of reviews on things where I don't know, it's so I appreciate the depth that you guys go into with that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, the vagueness is kind of my enemy when I'm editing reviews. I bring on new reviewers every couple months. Um and I already talked about the benefits of pool quotes and why I like them as the owner of Independent Book Review. I think they're valuable. But if you say that something is engaging and entertaining without telling me what engaged you and what entertained you, then this is not good writing. I don't need it. I don't I don't want to bring on someone who's not going into depth about what their experience is because it's not helpful to readers. If readers see those reviews online, even if they're Amazon and Goodreads reviews, their content truly it does not matter quite as much. Even though they're awesome people and I love them so much and I want them to keep writing reviews. But it's it's not what a pro does, it's not how you actually engage and inform readers why they should read something. I remember a few years ago there was a a book, How to Lose the Time War. Did you guys ever were you on Twitter at all in like 2019, 2020?
SPEAKER_00I've avoided Twitter as hard as I can most of my life.
SPEAKER_02Good. First of all, uh I did not have a great time, but I stayed anyway. How to lose the time war. There was this guy who wrote the shortest review in the universe. I mean, it was on Twitter, and it was like, don't read anything about this book, just go get it. And it went viral. It was like this ginormous sale. People started liking that book, and I'm very happy for it. But it didn't go into detail. I read the book based on the thing. I was like, all right, people love it. Like they they love it so much that they want to try it, and it's like, I'll read anything. I read it and I didn't like it. But I could have figured out that I didn't like it if the detail was there. And so that's what I want to do. I want to be really honest. I want to be really clear to readers what they're getting into without giving them all of the spoilers. So I think it's it's it's an important job.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, heck yeah. Back to movie reviews. If you tell me it's a musical up front, I will thank you.
SPEAKER_02Not wicked, you're not you don't like wicked? I I'll I'll die.
SPEAKER_00I've never seen it because I just assume. I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_01Have you seen Grace 2? I have not. When we had a book club, don't ask any questions, don't read any reviews, just buy it. Okay.
SPEAKER_00I'm always a cynic. When we had our book club, we'd have eight readers reading a book, and I was the one who was like, nah, I don't like it. Which is the importance of many reviews. You know, you should like if you have 50 reviews and they all say five stars, I'm gonna start questioning, you know. It's not likely that every single person is actually a fan, right?
SPEAKER_01Truly, yeah. I mean, I've I run around town recommending Name of the Wind to anyone that even dips a toe in fantasy. I think it's like the greatest book ever written, and I I recommended it to someone that we have very similar tastes, and she said, I hate it, I couldn't get through it. And I was like, but but but how? Are you sure you read the right book? You know, so it is we have such strong feelings and attachments. Yeah, it's they're I mean, they're books. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Can you talk about the timing of the reviews? Like, when should an author be looking to come to you to get this type of review?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Me, I'm flexible. I am a big fan of if it is good for a reader at any time, then it is a good time to review it. I I'm personally don't mind if we receive it six months in advance if you are doing that type of like research. Who's taking books for review in media platforms? And if you're looking for blurbers, which means that you're looking early to put it in your marketing material for your like launch week and everything. I'm cool to see those things. Many other platforms like mine do require that you reach out to them months in advance. So if you are a new author, your book's coming out in six months, it's time to start looking at who takes books for potential review because you could miss those deadlines. And it's not a huge deal if you miss the deadlines. Like if you were three months out, if you're a month out, if your book is already out, yes, it means that you didn't get a review from them. They're not going to accept it just because your book is is special. But there are platforms like mine. Like I I I am very flexible. You can what I like to do is have a pre-order or purchase link by the time that the review goes live. But we can write a review six months before, before the book is out, and do it in five weeks, do it in two weeks, whatever you want. And then I tell you, give me the link when it's ready. So I won't publish it on my site unless it has a way for my audience to buy it. And so that is a lot of the time when people start doing their publicity too. So, like if you want to get on a podcast, it's beneficial to have a link in some way, usually from a notable source that people buy books from, to have that link available. And so three months, I think, is a usually a pretty good time to start because that way you get our review in five weeks and then it enters a queue of about a month long. It depends where we are, how many reviews are before yours. And so that means it goes live about a month before your book comes out for for purchase. And so it could do that, or we could wait until publication month. I'm totally cool with that. I'm flexible. But if you get it early, that means that you can use it still in your pre-production. Some people use it on their book covers, on the back of their book covers. Some people put it in their editorial review section before the book actually comes out. Some people use a page at the beginning of their book called Advanced Praise, where there are multiple quotes on the first two pages. And so you can't do that if the book is already out. And so there are just so many ways that you can use it beforehand. If your book is already out, I'm happy to look at it as long as it's relevant for for readers. So send send them over whatever whatever you're ready. And if I think it's cool, we'll we'll pick it up.
SPEAKER_00Oh well, uh last interview question, sort of. What are some red flags that people should look out for when they're looking for paid reviews? Is there something that, you know, if they ask somebody like, hey, what do you do? or someone approaches them, because this happens so often on Instagram and says, Hey, I can do a book review for you. What what should they be looking for to go, uh nope, not doing this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, uh if they reach out to you and then ask for money for it, I think that's pretty bad. So de definitely shouldn't re be reaching out one-on-one unless they advertise and you've got it in your inbox or something like that, and then that's fine. It's you shouldn't pay for Amazon reviews, shouldn't pay for Goodreads reviews. The uh just straight up money that doesn't work. You will probably get flagged your account could get flagged, their account could get removed. People try to work around it and it is not allowed, so don't even try to do it. Review swapping also, if somebody asks you, hey, if you review my book on Amazon, I'll review your book on Amazon. You're not allowed to do that. But then platforms like mine, what I find important, other companies might not find as important. Um I personally, I I'll say what I paid for when I was a a a marketer and a publisher. I wanted a platform that didn't provide the generic praise. So what you would want to do is head onto their website and read as many reviews as you can and feel and get the feel of if they are being genuine. If every single review is overtly positive, then maybe that is an issue. Maybe you probably don't even want to hear that. It's just praise that is could be empty. So look for empty praise, look for detail and specificity, something that you would be proud of to see engage with on your book. So you want to be happy about what you are get in the end. Not necessarily they blew my book up to say that it's the best thing ever. That is great, obviously, but you want to believe it. So definitely read the reviews. One thing that I always found important was making a reader platform. Uh so if a platform is just f focused on selling things to authors, uh, that's one thing. Like they can be very transparent about it, and that is totally okay. What I wanted to do with mine was to make it so when you share the link with your audience, they're like, oh, these are readers. Like this is talking to me, as opposed to just trying to sell something to someone. And so I've always taken a lot of pride in making sure that our reader or our reader base grows. I want you to get those quotes. I want you to be able to use it in your marketing material to guarantee a timeline, all that good stuff. But I also would love it if people bought your book. Like that's that's what I really want. I want to find readers who are interested in buying your book uh and making my platform as kind of scrollable and and fun for them as possible. Uh while on the back end, I'm making sure that we review these books that aren't getting as much coverage as they should be. So I agree.
SPEAKER_01Alright, so now kind of kind of out there. If you could meet anyone, like author, actor, professor, someone you haven't met, living or no longer on this earthly plane, for a cup of coffee at your local bookshop for a little chat, who would it be?
SPEAKER_02I've given a lot of thought to this. I said, Well I'm ready. It's Bob Marley for sure. Wow. The dude, man. He is like Jesus to me. He is he did some incredible things before he was done. The dude just wanted to play soccer and so didn't cut his toe off, even though he should have. And so got toe cancer. Like they told him, you have to get rid of your foot or you're gonna die. And he's like, I have to play soccer, and he just kept with it. He was so passionate, he was a humanitarian, he stopped the war in Jamaica that was brewing with like a one-love concert. The dude just did so many incredible things, and his music can be enjoyed by everyone. If it is summer, it is Bob Marley time. It is you can bless any song that you want to, and it is going to feel good. You're gonna be able to dance. Every kid loves it, every adult loves it. And so, whenever I get the chance, it's the Exodus album all day. And if I get to talk to him, maybe I understand what he's saying. He was he spoke a little bit differently than I did. And he he was just so calm and a cool guy, and I I'd really like to see he had opinions too. What are your opinions? Please give me more of them.
SPEAKER_01So many dope jams. I mean, he and you're you're correct, he pairs perfectly with summertime. Like I mean, and living in Florida for so many years, I don't think you could go to any establishment anywhere on the beach without hearing Bob while you were there. Yes, absolutely. I mean, yeah, that's an awesome answer. I mean, I I can't even imagine the stuff you guys would get into talking about at that least.
SPEAKER_02I'd be intimidated for sure.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, oh yeah. I saw a sneak dog at the airport and I was just like, just gave them that's awesome.
SPEAKER_00And uh, you know, for some reason you've switched locations, but we don't need to talk about that. Your book, where can people find you and where can they submit their review requests?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so independentbookreview.com. Independentbookreview.com, that is the place. Hop on over, read a bunch of books, read about a bunch of books. They've got a lot of cool ones over there. And then there is a section on the website called for authors and publishers. That's where you'll find how to submit your book. You can submit for free. You can do a paid guaranteed review if you want. Uh, we have a write indie newsletter, which I stay really busy on. Uh and so every two weeks I pop in and talk about marketing, writing, and all sorts of probably too personal stuff. Uh, and then we have a read indie newsletter you can get in there. But in the writer section, you can do like beta reading. We have group beta reading as well. So plenty of writer resources as well as a reader-focused website. And if you want my book, cool, that's on that site too. But you can also just get it on Amazon and bookshop and stuff. So awesome.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Joe. This was great. Appreciate you taking the time to come here and uh continue to put great reviews in the world. Yeah, you are awesome. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_02Cool, thank you.
SPEAKER_00Have a great one.
SPEAKER_01We'll see you soon. Bye. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Yep, bye.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's Joe. Joe's awesome, right? Joe is awesome. Joe is awesome. I it was really cool finally getting a chance to talk to him.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I'm excited that was like our first industry person. We've had all of our authors so far.
SPEAKER_01Could he be cooler?
SPEAKER_00I know, right? Yeah, so y'all heard what he had to say, and I think you should get to it, get his book. I know I showed this to you a hundred times already, but the truth about book reviews by Joe Walters, independent book review, go get it. It is just waiting for you to unlock everything you need to get those reviews going. And I got an article from Publishers Weekly, and they were talking about how Simon and Schuster is relaunching an imprint that hunts basically for ebook authors to publish them. So they've already published a book, they have found them to have some type of success, and then they're going to try to entice them to do a paperback and come onto their roster.
SPEAKER_01With the new books or with the older books, or were they not very specific about this?
SPEAKER_00I don't know that they were very specific about that, but what I wanted to talk about today is what that means for authors, where it used to be not very long ago, and probably a lot many people are still carrying this myth, that you have to take an unpublished book to a traditional publisher, and that, you know, if if you have a book idea or you have a book, you don't necessarily have to sit around and wait for a traditional publisher to accept you to put it out there. They're actually more leaning towards, and this is what I had learned at the New York book show, also, is that they're spending more time looking for authors who already have a following and already have some type of success because then they don't have to spend the time making the gamble or the money.
SPEAKER_01It's interesting too because I I think it'll be fascinating as this kind of gets a little bit more common and gets out there a bit more because you know, are they gonna take, you know, like for instance, one of our authors, and how does that get in with the contract? And do they get bought out of their contracts? And you know, it I mean, uh it's gonna be it's gonna be I'm curious and excited to see what happens here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for sure. And um, like I said. That it was a publisher's weekly article if you wanted to check that out more and look more into it. But the advice there is though, if you have a book, there's no reason to just sit on it and think that no one is going to take it from you if you already have published it. So you may as well any publish or self-publish and just go for it and start building your audience.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like we always say, be yourself run wild, take leaps, right?
SPEAKER_00Right, exactly. Take that leap.
SPEAKER_01I mean, she says as she still hasn't written her rough draft of her book yet.
SPEAKER_00The leap is very long. My book is written. It's just getting rewritten. Yeah. And the following I've started doing my role model interviews, so like I'm working on my audience. So it's I saw that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Congratulations, that's awesome. I mean, any little bit, you know, and especially with like the last couple years I've had, I've had a lot of content to write about, we'll say, you know, like a lot of like big events. And I'm sitting here and I'm like, you gotta let someone else look at this to see, because I feel like I have a very dark sense of humor.
SPEAKER_00You know, there was a very we're friends, yes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I know. Like when we were the I'll tell you what, that sweat lodge situation, Temas Cal, was so challenging, and you're just I mean, you know, and I live in a dry area, so just sweating, sweating, sweating, and I was just like, I'm gonna be so skinny for my brother's funeral. And the girl next to me laughed, and it's like, you know, you have to like I have to find that light in there or that levity or something because it's like, you know, in chomping things down and like, you know, we'll get there bit by bit, bite by bite. We're gonna you and I will keep each other honest and accountable on these books, you know. It's very hard for me to share my writing, so I appreciate when you give me an eye and an ear and a little you know, you you are truly the role model in that where you're like, oh, this is really good. Your writing is gonna help a lot of people one day, just like yours does, you know. I mean, it's like you don't have to be Jenny Lawson, who I love.
SPEAKER_00No, well Jenny Lawson didn't start off. Her name was Jenny Lawson, maybe. I don't know if that's a real name. Uh but nobody star I mean I I just have seen yesterday the videos that are going around, probably having going around, but finally made it to me of Morgan Freeman on Sesame Street, uh not Sesame Street, uh Electric Company, Electric Company show. Um from when we were little children. And everyone starts somewhere. You know, and nobody any anyone that you admire, anybody, you know, unless they were born into wealth or something like that, most people start from the very, very beginning or bottom, and their first movie was horrible. I mean, two guys are girl in a pizza place. Does anyone really even remember where Ryan Reynolds started?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I loved Corey Haim, you know.
SPEAKER_00Same.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it oh, I mean, so many of it completely. Oh, funny.
SPEAKER_00So anytime you're feeling like you know, we always want to be careful of the grass and screener syndrome, but always know that everyone just started somewhere and you just keep getting better. If you're not getting better as you go or improving or trying to, then you have an issue. But if as long as like some sort of progress attempts are made, then you're good.
SPEAKER_01I didn't know until yesterday that Will Farrell has a son that makes music. Really? And I mean, if anybody could get exposure out there, you know, Will Farrell kind of people kind of know who he is. He has a son who makes bangers. I mean, they were listening to it on a I saw it on a podcast video, you know, oddly enough. That's like as it's really good.
SPEAKER_00That's awesome. Well, this is our second month that we have not had a BC Besties story to share, which makes me pretty sad. Come on, you guys, talk about your friends. I know, right? Celebrate your besties. Let's go. If you are listening to this and you can think of anyone you know who is a best friend, couple, brother-sister situation who are doing something cool, started a company. I don't I don't even know, hiked the Appalachian Trail, did something crazy, like send them a website, tell them to submit their story, because we would love to share it. And that's it. I think we're we're done today.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, you know, it's I've got my beastie besties in the other room. I have two dogs now, y'all. You'll meet Frank sooner or later. But yeah, no, it was good catching up with you, Lo. Um, I'm glad everything's all right up there in NYC. And you know, I'm happy to be back in Denver. We might actually get some rains, so life is good. Awesome. Well, that's it, everybody. Be yourself, run wild, and take leaps. Don't forget to high five your homies and pen your pages. We love you. Bye.