Wear and Tear Explained: Avoiding Common Deposit Disputes for Landlords and Tenants - Part 2 - Ep. 30

Wear and Tear Explained: Avoiding Common Deposit Disputes for Landlords and Tenants.

Welcome back to The All Things Property Podcast. In this episode, Simon Bacon and Ian Sadler return for Part 2 of their deep dive into fair wear and tear, an essential topic for landlords and tenants alike. 

This week, they break down what landlords can and cannot deduct from a deposit, tackle the importance of detailed inventories and evidence, and demystify key concepts like betterment and cleaning obligations. 

Expect straight-talking, practical advice drawn from real-life experiences, with tips to avoid disputes and set clear expectations from the very start of any tenancy. Whether you're a landlord looking to protect your investment or a tenant wanting to know your rights, this episode gives you the know-how to navigate deposits and wear and tear like a pro.

Chapters

00:00 Importance of rental inventories

05:03 Landlord tips for tenant checklists

08:57 Tenant expectations for property upgrades

11:36 Advice for landlords on cleaning

14:23 Managing rental property expectations

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www.prefprop.com

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome back to the second part of the Fair Wear and Tear episode where we're trying to understand what a landlord can and cannot deduct from a deposit and in this episode we'll carry on talking through some of the issues so that by the end you have a better and clearer understanding. Welcome to the All Things Property Podcast with me, Simon Bacon of Preferential Properties. Every week Ian Sadler and I will delve into all things property. We'll guide you through with friendly, no nonsense advice. We've talked about the inventory. So in in terms of in order to even start that process, what's the lack what what have you got to have at the beginning of the tendency? An inventory and schedule of conditions. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So with photographs. Yeah, and how many times again I'm being maybe I'm I'm being contentious, but how many times? Provocative, yes. How many times has a landlord said to you, and I'm not just talking about now, I'm talking about in your vast experience of managing properties, where a landlord has said to you, here's my inventory, I've done it for you, it's on an A4 sheet of paper, and they've gone curtains to bedroom, carpet to bedroom.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Um I'd resist the urge to laugh and then explain why you needed something more detailed. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

And I've had out recently, so this isn't something that you know maybe happened five or ten years ago, but even recently, I had I don't want to say too much, a property where a landlord could spent a lot of money refurbishing it with a view to selling. I know this one, I've heard it before. Yeah, didn't want to sell it, call couldn't sell it, so rented it out. And when I said to him, We're going to need an inventory, and he said, you know, his comment was, What are you going to document how many walls and windows it's got? And that to me is is a fundamental of why an inventory is so important because how can you have a discussion around fair wear and tear and identify that or even damage if you haven't got the inventory to start with that is detailed. And photographs help with that massively. Okay. Um, so you said that you'd um you'd taken advice from somebody recently. How how do adjudicators assess disputes? Have you had any? How how have they adjudicated? Have they how they reached their decisions?

SPEAKER_00 2:49

I don't want to blow smoke, but I've only ever had two cases raised against me. And neither case did the tenant submit any evidence.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Really?

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Well, because you're too old or no, because I'm I'm not too old.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Okay. It's just that you said they raised disputes about you. I was at an age. Oh, with you.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

About the move out report. Fair enough. But that was that was more a case of indignation. When it push came to show up, they either couldn't be bothered or had no evidence to put down. You didn't or they didn't. They didn't. They didn't. No, I submitted dreams of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

It I don't know, it feels sometimes it feels wrong to me that you know tenants can dispute with no grounds. With no implications or no grounds, yes. But going back to how do adjudicators, what what do they look at?

SPEAKER_00 3:42

I think um well, as you said earlier, age of property, number of occupants, length of tenancy.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

It's it's very matter-of-fact, isn't it? It's what evidence have you got? What evidence has both parties got of before? What evidence have they got after? What costs are they seeking, and are those costs proportionate and fair and reasonable?

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Yeah, and what complicates the matter is people's moods and personalities, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

And often, you know, you you I suppose it's like anything, isn't it, that people's emotions don't get in the way.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

People don't like to accept responsibility nowadays, generally throughout life, I find, as an old kit.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

Cleaning's another one, isn't it? Where you know people's perception of people's standard of cleaning can range from really good to really poor.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

Well, if you yeah, I'm sure you send a checklist. Do you send a checklist? Yeah, we do. With our notes. Yeah. Detailing absolutely everything, wiping down skirting boards, it's all there in black and white, isn't it? If it's not done, then once again you'll go back to well, can you prove the condition at the start?

SPEAKER_01 5:03

So again, you know, one of those things for you know, perhaps landlords to take on board that you know, as letting agents we do produce these checklists for tenants when they move out. So again, if if you're having to deal with it and want to get in touch and you know get a copy of a tenant's checklist for when a tenant moves out of property, do get in touch, and again you'll find the link in our web web podcast, even. So uh feel free to to access that. So, what are common landlord mistakes when claiming deductions?

SPEAKER_00 5:38

Um managing their expectations. They'll often claim more, whether they'll think it's it's going to they can claim for more than something. I think most people are fair and reasonable, but it's it's once again it's personalities, isn't it? People have different expectations. What about common tenant misunderstandings?

SPEAKER_01 5:58

What what excuses or what reasons have has a tenant cut?

SPEAKER_00 6:02

It was too wet to cut the garden two weeks before I left. Okay. The oven was cleaner after I left than when I moved in. Yeah. And anything else? Long list. Length of stay?

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Or being there a long time.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

Being in a long time, you should expect. And there's an element of truth in that. Um, if they're there five years, I would generally recommend a a ref a refurbishment, minor refurbishment if you want to. So, good point.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Going to challenge you on that. Come on then. I've been in the property for five years. Have you? No. A tenant says I've been in the property for five years, therefore you shouldn't be making any deductions against my deposit. That's so. But you've put a hole in the wall, or you've caused a dent in the wall, or you know, uh a door is hanging off its hinges. What would you say to that? I would say a w a hole is a hole. Yeah. Damage is damage, whether you've been in there for six months or whether you've been in there for eight years.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

The length of your tenancy doesn't mitigate your damage, the damage done to property.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

What it does mitigate is wear and tear. Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. Now, let's move on to betterment. What's your understanding? What does betterment mean to you? This is a common one that um often tenants will talk about, landlords will talk about, and the adjudicator will mention in their report. So, what does betterment mean?

SPEAKER_00 7:35

Uh damage to a wall, let's say, use that as an example, and landlords taking the opportunity to improve the property, the condition of the property with intense expense.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Okay. In words of two syllables without a load of waffle. That was about better than Tom understood that. Really? Okay, okay. Well, for those that didn't understand it, let me explain what betterment means in maybe five or six words. Limited betterment is not upgrading at a tenant's expense. Much more succinct, I feel. So, what does that mean though for for landlords? Well, apart from taking advantage of the situation, they're not allowed to do it. What's replacement got to be? Like for like? Can they uh upgrade it? Of course they can't upgrade it. Well they can, but they can't get the cost back, can they? That's the difference. Landlords can't upgrade at a tenant's expense. So, you know, you can go from a uh I don't know, £20 a square metre carpet to a £30 a square metre carpet, but that would be classed as betterment. Isn't that common sense? Not necessarily, no.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

How can anybody expect to get away with that?

SPEAKER_01 8:56

But it's not necessarily that landlords expect to get away with it. I think tenants sometimes feel that um they're being asked to pay for somebody bettering a property. So it's a real balance, isn't it? That you know what an adjudicator will look for when we come back to that where fair wear and tear policy, is it's got to be of a similar standard to what was there at the beginning when assessing what a what a cost is. A landlord can better a property but they can't use the having to upgrade it because of damage as a as a reason for or to expect the cost of that betterment to be met. Agreed. Okay. Cleaning.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Do you put addendums in your agreements for things like having ovens professionally cleaned or no, because based on based on what you said earlier about um carpets, yeah, you can't put a clause in there that says you must have your carpet professionally cleaned, because then it puts an obligation on the end of a previous tenancy to have them professionally cleaned, so at the start of theirs. So with an oven, uh photographs generally, two or three photographs.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

Okay, why don't you get your ovens professionally cleaned when the tenant moves in?

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Because it it's they don't all need it. If they need it, then I will.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

But how can you then make sure that properties the oven is you know really good standard when isn't that isn't that would you not say that's an easy difficult to there are so many levels of expectations and standards here?

SPEAKER_00 10:42

Yeah. If if I'm not sure, an ideal situation is you get an oven is whether you get it or it's whatever happens, it gets clean and pristine, which isn't difficult, 50-60 quid to do an oven, but it is spotless, so they use all those chemicals. Should that be done at the start of every tenancy? And who does it?

SPEAKER_01 11:01

If you if you have it done at the beginning of a tenancy Who does it? Who pays for it? The landlord. The landlord is presenting the property to a to a new tenant. To initial tenancy. No, at at the beginning of the tenancy. So if if a if your landlord gets the oven professionally cleaned, ready for the new tenant to move into, so the first time they ever lack it.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Well that's different, isn't it? I'm talking about consecutive tenancies where you get um standards are different again, so you might get somebody who thinks the oven is pristine, you might get somebody who thinks it's it it's not.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

Yeah, but but having it something done, having it professionally cleaned, an oven professionally cleaned at the beginning of a tenancy, if the landlord meets that cost once, he should never, they should, I should say, they should never then have to meet that cost again. Ever. So would you not say the for giving advice to landlords, the better you get your properties to start with, the more chance you've got of getting them back in a good standard at the end, because the tenant can you know get the oven really dirty, but if it's been professionally cleaned and you have an addendum that says that the oven hob and extractor fan will be professionally cleaned, was professionally cleaned and must be professionally cleaned at the end of the tenancy, there is no from a adjudication perspective, there is absolutely no grey area. Yeah, it's twice you've done that, and that's that I suppose that's where I try and encourage my landlords to prevent those grey areas causing disputes later on. And what does it cost to have an oven cleaned? 80 quid? The oven, the extractor, and the hob, eighty or ninety quid. Good investment, I would have said.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Until you get to a stage at the end of your first tenancy where the tenant says, Well, that's clean enough for me.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

Yeah. Did they professionally clean it? Your at your tenancy said you have to professionally clean it and produce receipts. Professionally clean, my mum did it. Yeah. Yeah. And that's yeah, I've heard that. So which which then comes back to, you know, when we talk about fair wear and tear, what can a landlord deduct from a deposit? Um, you know, is it fair wear and tear or is it damage? And you could argue, well, I've used the oven, so it's wear and tear. I've been in here three years, my oven's a bit dirty. I've used it. You have an addendum that says carpets will be professionally cleaned, or um, you know, the oven will be professionally cleaned at the end of the tenancy because it was at the beginning of the tenancy, then you know, uh I've yet to have a d a dispute where that's been you know thrown out. How do you avoid disputes altogether? What's the one thing you can do, do you recommend?

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Follow Simon's practices.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

No, no, sensible Ian, giving instructions to people again. What what would you say is is the best way to avoid disputes altogether? A detailed inventory. Another way you look at me is if you say, Am I saying the right thing here? Exactly why I looked at you like that. Going back to everything we talk about in our podcasts, it is communication, making sure you set very clear expectations at the start, documentation, making sure you've got an inventory and photographs where you can of conditions of stuff, because all what that does is it's very hard then to you you're trying to take the emotion out of it. It's very hard for someone to go, here's a photograph of uh an oven that's been professionally cleaned at the beginning, this was the oven at the end, which I cleaned but didn't have it professionally cleaned. You can you'll be able to see a difference. So, to sum up this episode around fair wear and tear and what landlords can deduct from a deposit, if you can't evidence a condition at the start, it's very difficult to claim at the end. It all comes back to proof. And what I have said is if you want a copy of our checklist, then please the link will be there. Do give us a call or print it off. Thank you. Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of the All Things Property Podcast. If you found this episode useful, don't forget to subscribe, like, and share. These things really help us reach the people who need to hear this advice. See you next week.