Episode Six: Growth Gremlins: The Hidden Costs Holding Your Firm Back with Pam Meissner

Most law firm owners believe growth comes from working harder.

But at some point, growth requires something different: letting go.

In this episode of The Exchange, Tom Lenfestey sits down with Pam Meissner, Managing Partner at CathCap, to explore the financial, operational, and leadership challenges that keep law firm owners stuck - and what it takes to build a firm that can scale beyond them.

From financial clarity and team accountability to trust, delegation, and exit readiness, this conversation dives into the mindset shifts that separate owner-dependent practices from truly valuable businesses.

They cover:

• Why many law firm owners hit growth ceilings without realizing it
• The concept of a "financial thermostat" and how it shapes decision-making
• The people problems that quietly limit growth and profitability
• Why control is often the biggest barrier to scaling a firm
• How trust impacts leadership, delegation, and firm performance
• The hidden costs of keeping the wrong people in key roles
• What buyers actually look for when evaluating acquisition opportunities
• Why business value increases as owner dependency decreases
• How to prepare a law firm for a future transition or sale
• The mindset shifts that help owners build firms that last 

Transcript

0:09

Well, hello everybody, and welcome back to the exchange. I'm Tom Linfesti, your host, uh, here with another great program today, uh, another great guest that I'm excited to bring to you. Uh longtime partner uh of mine with Law Practice Exchange, just somebody we really look to as one of our trusted partners for clients, and excited to dive into the conversation. But really, the expertise, of course, is in helping law firms. So very excited today to welcome Pam Meissner. Pam, thanks for joining us. My pleasure. Great to be here. Yeah, and Pam, you kind of have you, you know, you're quoted as being a unicorn in some ways, right? You're a CPA by training, right? And uh again, you've really worn, I think, almost every hat on the financial side and in different types of businesses, everything else. Can you give us a little bit of the how did the roadmap go to get from where you are today? Well, there's a lot of long stories in there, so let me see if I can pick out the highlights for your listeners. I think the overarching um theme of my career has been I just never said no. And I had a high tolerance for risks. So big breaks came when I moved abroad, worked just after the wall came down in privatization work in Poland, and then moved to uh Russia. So I saw the growth, the tremendous overnight successes, if you would, in a very messy situation, and so I think that helps me do what I do today because we really plug into law firms that are trying to grow, right? They've they've got a proof of concept and now they want to scale, now they want to put some gas onto it, and you know, I've been in the trenches, so so doing this just I have the road less traveled, so I've had all those big careers I took a decade off, and then I I went back to work, I got to work with an entrepreneur, and I think that's where I really honed and prepped for today. Because entrepreneurs are are special snowflakes, you know? I mean, you gotta love a good visionary, right? And sure. If you don't get that, I don't think you can do what we do, right? If you don't have the empathy, if you don't find them entertaining, then it's hard to help them, right? And then where are you helping them go today? Like what do you do with them at Calf Cap to help them go? Right. So because we've been at this for so long, there's very little you can do that surprises us, but whenever you dive into the numbers, you're gonna find some stuff, right? Because they're entrepreneurs and they don't know what they don't know, and I think they find comfort in the fact that you can't surprise us. We aren't gonna work with people who haven't reached a ceiling, so they're big enough that they've got proof of concept, right? But they're coming up against ceilings, right? And that ceiling should be I don't want to practice law anymore. I don't only want to do marketing, but then they keep getting slapped upside the head because something goes awry in the finances, right? Or they lose sleep at night, and or they go to these conferences and they don't think they measure up when you know, we because of the extensiveness of our our practice, we have the benchmarks, right? So we can say, yeah, whatever they said at that conference, that guy was not speaking the truth. This is what I've seen, I've seen enough to know that you know, in these areas you're doing well. I think the opportunity to do better and the opportunity to hire people that care as much about their business as they do is something that seems to resonate with our clients. They come to an understanding of I was a great lawyer, but you know, I didn't go they don't go to law school to do math except for give me any number and I can take one third of it. They also didn't go to school to manage people. And so they're when they come to us, they're feeling pain, right? Sure. And they don't want to live there, but yet they know they have something that the market values. And so, you know, everything runs through the numbers, and if we can solve it, we're gonna partner with them to solve it. If not, then we have a network with people, you know, you know how much I refer people to you. Sure. That that we've just been there done that. So I think the amazing part, Pam, you kind of, you know, you relayed your experience of of working with lawyers and they come in with expectations, or they come in with these challenges, or they come in from a conference where they heard and they feel like they don't measure up. I know from seeing behind the curtains that no firm is perfect, no business is perfect. It just doesn't work that way. As you kind of noted, as you gain, you know, focus on perfection, right? Just like the practice of law, but as you get to a certain place, you know, you grow and scale and something else breaks, right? And so the goal is, I think, and and just kind of looking at your story, it's like as these owners come to you with a pain point, right? The good news is they're seeking to do better, right? They're seeking to improve their business, um, their way they manage that business or ownership. And I think as an owner, that's just right there. And I think that's where they come to you for that financial path, that clarity, that help that you can provide because they're hitting that obstacle is just so huge. Yeah, and we try we have to customize because every firm has a rhythm. And they have a rhythm for a reason because of their culture, um, because of the type of law that they practice. Fighting against that isn't going to do anybody any good. It's saying, okay, here's where we are and here's where we want to go, and how how do we bridge that gap? That's right. And I think, you know, as you work with owners, of course, we work with owners in the marketplace. You know, one of the biggest things that maybe you don't talk about on the financial side as much. Everybody wants to talk numbers, they want to talk ratios, percentages, bottom line, you know, top line, but is really where the owners are in the headspace, right? Or where they're kind of firmly focused. And I'll call this like foundationally, right? Because you kind of mentioned already, like each one's coming in with a different, you know, kind of a different focus. They're a little unique, right? They've got a different plan. And what I would ask you is when owners come in, how important or what do you see from kind of a headspace mentality before you start focus on fixing, before you start focus on growth and scale, that really for you and your team is important to address and start there as a foundational so that the rest becomes easier. Because I'll give you a little deeper explanation. What we find when we go through exit planning, sale, anything else is that owner mentality and like, you know, being vested, but being knowledgeable, everything else, having that is actually the more predictor of success to a successful sale or anything else than the financials sometimes of the deal, right? It's just really have they focused on it, bought in, emotionally checked into I need help and I've come to you for help, and how can you help me do that? And kind of does that make sense? Yes, yes, it does. So there's a couple of different pieces of that that we see. As I mentioned before, you know, if they haven't hit that ceiling, there's nothing we can do to get them to open up. I think because we're so straightforward, we're not gonna cherry code it, right? That when we say that you're doing well here, you're doing well there. If we say this needs work, I think they appreciate just us saying, this needs work. The other piece to it is a bit goes back to their financial thermostat, right? So everybody, and this kind of gets to their their business acumen, I think is what you were referring to. And I think you wrote a great blog article about two firms on paper that are completely different when it comes to putting a valuation on them. And I couldn't agree with you more. So a financial thermostat is just that, it is where your financial um quality is set, okay? And it goes back to, you know, if you're a spender, your financial thermostat is set on spending. And I'm gonna tell you there are no better spenders on the face of the earth than attorneys, right? If there is a high-end thing, they're gonna want it and they're probably gonna buy it, right? But if your financial thermostat is set low, then um you know you're not gonna invest. Knowing and getting them to acknowledge where that financial thermostat is set is incredibly helpful to having them realize the work that has to be done to getting what they want. So it's the financial thermostat is set, and there's 14 hidden um elements of of your personal financial thermostat. Ruby May, Ruby May out of the University of Houston, did all this research and she said, you know, if you're if you're firmly set here, you have to realize the hidden rules to be able to adjust your thermostat. But essentially it is set at that table that you grew up at, that kitchen table, right? Sure. You know, do you do you remember good old, you know, meals, the family table? Yeah, absolutely. Before, you know, soccer practices and everything else got in the way in the evenings and whatnot. But yeah, I think that's the goal. And what you're saying is there is a certain way, right? Like there's a certain, you know, and I call I call that foundation, but how certain law firm owners are coming in that they're here and they believe this is how they believe, right? Tell me a little bit, you know, because so much of what we deal with is law firms looking for growth, and so they're looking to acquire law practices, you know, as a form of growth. But a lot of the coaching that we try to do is if you don't have your, you know, financial thermostat and foundations and everything correct, maybe you have some of those growth gremlins, you know, as part of it. Don't go and double your revenues by acquiring a firm. Yeah, I think it really goes back to people and how savvy are they at identifying, you know, their people. And you've seen this, I think work talks about it a lot of times, is you know, are you aligned with the company's core values and are you good at your job, right? And it's a two by two, and so in the upper right hand corner are your stars, right? They're the people who align with your core values and they're great at their jobs, right? The other end are your rats, they're not very good at their job and they don't align and they've gotta go. It's the other two quadrants that to me I see being real gremlins to growing. So this is you know your puppies, right? So these are people who absolutely, you know, wave the company flag, right? They're just out there, everybody loves them, but they're not very good at their jobs, right? People don't focus in on that because you can't have a litter of puppies in your office, right? Okay, um, but if you have a puppy, you need to call it that, and you need to have a plan to get them from being a puppy to being a star. It's like the part that really causes loss of sleep for owners is somebody who's really good at their job. They're gonna be somebody who usually is a litigator and doesn't align with your core values. Giving, you know, all they see is that if they deal with the issues with that person, that there goes revenue. And what we've seen again and again and again is that is not the case at all. Actually, revenue grows. And if you go to put, it's not something just to deal with quickly, right? You have to put a plan together. But if you do that, then your stars won't leave, right? They'll actually thank you, like finally you woke up and saw what a jerk this person is, right? And they'll rally and replace that revenue and then some because it's a much better place to work. But they hold you hostage, right? Some people call them terrorists because they bring forth so much money to the bottom line, to the top and the bottom line. So these are the kind of things that really keep people from growing the way they want to. You know, and law is still like, you know, we have conversations now with private equity and everything else moving in this space, but law is such a human capital-driven business, right? Like human capital is such a key component that I think, Pam, what you're saying is it's so hard for lawyers because they get back to that person produces or they're a good lawyer, right? But they are so contrary to really what the rest are doing that it prevents the scale. And I think in law, especially in any business where there's so much human capital, that is the fear, is a person that's good in that seat is something you just can't do without, right? So we've had that problem with, oh, well, this person's been here forever or anything else, but they're really prohibiting you from that growth, which is just a really hard thing. Oftentimes they were what the firm needed two, three years ago, and they're not growing with the firm. And so that's where owners have loyalty that that employees will never give them. Um and they don't realize that hidden cost of keeping somebody beyond their alignment with where the firm's going. Sure. And it's a it's a growth problem, right? Which is a good thing. But like you said, that's a ceiling problem. They've hit a different potential ceiling and gone from there. One of the other things, Pam, that just makes me think a lot of what we talk about is, you know, lawyers, being a lawyer, we are trained, it almost feels like, to not make the bold decisions. Sometimes, you know, coming out of law school. Yeah, it depends, right? Um, or, you know, immediately you're presented with an opportunity or something else. And the the goal really in law school is it teaches us to see all the bad things that could happen, right? All the bad things first, not the good things, right? Um, but all the bad things that can happen. So what I wanted to ask you is, and I've seen this in practice, because we have worked, of course, with you and your team, you know, on buyers and sellers and working through this, but how do you approach, you know, especially law firm owners in making those tough decisions? Like what does financial clarity or other clarity that you can really bring them? Do you think what it does for empowering them to make those bold decisions? Because I think that makes them better business owners and better business managers when they can make those big decisions, but with clarity. Yes. So one of the aspects of clarity that we bring is experience, right? Because we have cases where somebody's been there and done that, and we can tell them that they're going to be okay. And that because of our track record, they have confidence in us. And you know, at the top it's very lonely, right? And the last thing any of us want to do is reinvent the wheel. And I think we try to do is we try to show them through data what the story is. Um, you know, something happens with an employee, right? And the firm comes in and says, now we're gonna have minimum billable hours, or you know, your cases have to move at this average time on desk needs to be here. And they they focus on it from the standpoint of one data point. But when we bring the whole story and we present it graphically over a period of time, they gain clarity and confidence because they're like, this isn't just what happened last week when you know, whatever, the dog died, or you know, this or that of the this has been the case for the last 18 months or two years. And and I think that's one of the biggest flaws I see in in management is looking at the single data point. You'll never win on a single data point. But when you are clear with what you expect and you consistently communicate where they are relative to that bar, um we have seen tremendous, tremendous value added straight to the bottom line by making yourself available in a regular cadence, being clear about expectations, and using a tool that they can tell the story themselves that they get it through that trend analysis. There's a great book by um, I think I have it here, Michael Bungay Stannier, um, The Coaching Habit. Love, love, love it. What we have found is oftentimes owners keep the monkey on their back, but it shows you how to keep it on their back and and how to help them solve the problem. Um and and nine times out of ten, once they understand what you expect, they're more than happy to do it. They might not know how. Yep. Yeah, it's really it's it's reflecting and giving that you know strategic value back to them, right? It's that reinforcement of this is why, and and really helping them improve their business, helping them improve their life. And that's kind of where you know I want to talk about like scaling without burning out, right? Plain and simple. What do you what do you think as to really what helps them scale without burnout? Yeah, so that that letting go, they joke, they call me the book lady, but a book I love comes down to trust. Okay, and it's called the speed of trust. And firms with high trust get dividends, and firms with low trust get taxed. And most emerging business leaders in this space come at it with the they have to earn my trust attitude. And the opposite is true. You have to create trust and you have to give trust first. Not saying be bold, but I think a lot of them have been burned by abdicating or turning over the kingdom for all the reasons, like, you know, finally this person has all the answers. They may or may not, right? One of the strengths at Cathcap is we have early on, we tried to do everything, right? And had the CFO do everything stick to nuts, and there was a burnout factor that we were facing. And so we divide it and said, you know, it's really hard to be strategic and to be in the detail. And so every every CFO has a a financial analyst, and she's the one down deep in in the data who brings it up to the CFO to consume and then discuss with the client. There's so much cash in this business that I think it's hard to trust. Sure. Yeah, and I think that's the the overarching, I mean, you know, maybe another bad analogy, but I have these conversations with my teenagers at home. It's like we can have a relationship built on trust or we can have a relationship built on rules. But you know, when I look at a law firm, right, or a business, anything else, and if you're the owner or you're the CEO, if you have an organization that's really built on trust, right, that trust has hopefully, you know, had been earned by those individuals, right? Like they've earned your trust and you've been able to let go, right? And that's my kind of message to my teenagers is you know, which would you rather have a relationship of parent, team, you know, that's built on trust or rules. But if you don't earn that trust, rules. But the problem with rules, I think, you know, and you can go systems and SOPs are great, but if you are constantly monitoring your employees and have to oversee and watch, that's still burnout, right? That's still burnout from that factor. It's the tax, yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the hard part for especially a lot of law lawyers who are firm owners, is it's hard to let go. And so even though you do sometimes trust, you haven't fully relinquished, right? And I know, you know, when we talk about like, you know, getting into like EOS or, you know, what Brooke's working on and everything else, it's like so great because it it's hopefully giving that structure, but trust is the key component of that, right? Yes, you need systems, yes, you need organization, right? It's like Lencion and his five dysfunctions of a team. I think the other thing that that I often see with people when we're starting to work with them is a lack of understanding that, you know, as they were coming up and learning and growing, right? They made mistakes. And guess who paid for those mistakes? And that's fine. You can justify it as, oh, I'm learning, I'm gonna do better, right? Is as their team does the same thing, guess who pays for those mistakes? You do. Right. And they get angry, and I'm like, but didn't you make mistakes? And you gave yourself grace, right? But I see them struggling with a lack of control because I think control is the enemy of trust, you know, to your point of rules and and processes and procedures and whatnot. But there's there's a lot more nuance to trust, I think, than we um acknowledge. You know, it's interesting. Um, may have shared this story already on the podcast, but we helped a you know, a plaintiff attorney, had a great firm, had to run and own the firm forever, you know, but had a good team, had a lot of love and good culture within the team, everything else, but they needed a succession plan and they did not have it in-house, so we had to go to the market to find it. And all along that process, I'm paying you here, of course, you know, from attorneys, it's like, I'm very worried. Like, I this is this is mine, this is my baby, right? I've run this firm for this long. I am very fearful of losing control. And our goal always is to find the right successor, right? So ease it. Like you found a right, good, chosen successor, everything else, but all up to almost closing day. You know, our client, the seller, was telling us, I'm very fearful. You know, Tom, I've told you, you know, loss of control for me. Like, I like to be able to make my decisions. I like to have my way. This is going to be hard. I understand this. Two or three days after closing, I talked to him again. And he said, You know what? I was kind of dumb to think it was all about. Control. What I didn't realize is when you give up that control, a lot of burdens are taken off of you as well. Like a lot of freedom is gained from giving that control to somebody else. Right. And he said, you know, in his situation, he's like, I don't have to show up first to the office today. I don't have to make sure we're making payroll today. I, you know, get to have more of his personal time and freedom is where he was going. But I think that applies even if you're running your firm on a day-to-day and not looking at exit. Once you shift that to a trusted individual, right? There is this, there is this freedom you just gained. And it's a freedom to, as you point, even like in this financial analyst, a CFO, to focus on really what you should be focusing on, right? And really doing more with your time because you've given up what you thought you needed so much, right? You just thought you needed. Yes. And and here comes to another point that I see good leaders struggling with as they go into transition. Is there like, I want to protect my team. You've heard this, right? Sure. Yeah. I care, and they genuinely care compassionately about their team. And it's it's a bit of an illusion that they think they could have control after the fact. And you know, I through all my mene experience, you choose an industry, things are gonna change. But they forget the key thing that they have given to these people that they care about. They have given them experience, they have poured into them over the years, they have given them opportunities. Yes, they are a critical reason they are who they are, and that's a gift nobody can take away. Absolutely. But a piece of you goes with them. And I think that's the component we talk a lot, Pam, about you know, we and you do the same, about having your exit plan because everybody wants this control, everybody wants to protect their team. But the worst thing in the world is if you don't have that exit plan, you are actually not protecting that team. Right. Right. I mean, to your point, you've given them so much already. And then if you want to give them that last gift, it's actually having that exit plan where at least they have an opportunity to stay, right? Who has, you know, dealing with a health issue, right, with the lawyer owner and they're in panic and the team then has no choice but to leave and find jobs. You know, there's a lack of really protection because you're so like, I'm going to keep this control. Well, really control the path and control the process in exit planning. But by you taking those steps, you're actually protecting them by holding back and saying, well, I don't want things to change because I'm fearful. One, like you said. Yeah. And I think overall, you know, the most interesting part is we kind of go through this, is there's common things that really delay and derail exit planning, right? But as we go through those, we usually what we're seeing now, Pam, is kind of those who get the best exit are the owners that have gone through everything we just talked about in the last 30 minutes or so of this podcast. Because when we have law firms that come looking for exit and the owner is really in that owner seat, they're not in the everywhere seat. I mean, they're the most marketable firms out there. Yes. And I'm sure you see that as well. And so part of that goal is to get the owners to that seat, right? Right. And so I have a great exercise for that. I uh I send owners who want that but don't have it yet. I send them on vacation for 90 days. And two things happen. One, you figure out what you're doing that nobody else can do because it broke while you were gone. And two, they figure out if they can really be retired. You know, can you not work for 90 days? Now, most of them do it figuratively and don't literally take a 90-day trip, but that is really the test to, you know, it's an inverse proportion between value and your role in the firm. The less you're doing in the firm, the more valuable your firm is. And that's a huge hit to the ego. Yeah, but but you're building business value, right? The value, the hardest part for us is we always talk about there's personal value, like you as the attorney, have your brand relationship. And traditionally, that's how so many lawyers thought about building a law practice. The business was just an extension of them having too much work for themselves to do, right? And so they really didn't, yeah, right. I mean, they just didn't focus on not all, of course, certain have been built on business focus, but it is really nice to see when that happens and you've built a business that has value. Man, you've really done I tell all that you've done something special and truly unique that a lot of others in the law firm space have not been able to do is really have that business. And if, you know, you are in that, it doesn't devalue what you've done. It actually gives you credit, I think, for all the work you have done. Absolutely. You know, to take those moves, to hire the right advisors, to work through those different steps and everything else. All right, I'm gonna ask you, you know, get back to the financial core and maybe we'll kind of close with this. But you look and you help, you know, on the sell side, you help on the buy side, because of course we're working through this. If you're let's go first to the buyer, you're a law firm owner, you're looking at growth through acquisition. Where does the conversation that you start with those law firm owners to looking at buying? Because again, our goal is to get, you know, some of these law firms who don't have good CFO advisory teams to you. And like you said, that's a ceiling they have, right? Like they've been okay maybe to that point, but now they've got an opportunity and they don't know how to approach and investigate that opportunity. And that's one that, you know, they probably needed you a couple of years ago, but that's one that's hopefully going to force them to really look to your team and kind of do that. But where where do you start with that type of buyer-focused lawyer? So I think you need to be in touch with where do you really add value, right? Are you really good at lead generation, right? Are you experts in your craft? Yeah, you have to be okay in your craft, but are you really exceptional, right? Or do you have great processes and procedures? Understand what your special sauce is and go find somebody who doesn't have that. Okay. You know, at the end of the day, there's two things that determine what a law firm's valued at. It's valued the multiple. And a lot about the multiple has to do with how important is the owner. But the other is is net operating profit, right? What is the total owner benefit? And if you go into it knowing your numbers, if you find somebody subpar, then you have conversations. Do you want to buy somebody who's good and make them great? But don't buy somebody who's awful and think you can make them good. Because you know that that kind of a firm is is toxic, right? And don't place value on on necessarily the that everybody's gonna stay. And so I think it's it's great advice for really what you're saying is look at what you do that's awesome, right? Yeah, go out find somebody that's not as awesome but pretty good, and you could roll them in to make them awesome as well under your platform, and it's a good strategic fit. Would that be yeah? And how about the sell side? How about those law firm owners that maybe you've been working with for a while and they're coming to you? You you and your team have been working with them on everything. Where does that sell or really that exit plan discussion start? Part of it is what do you so let's say you successfully exit and then what? I think Price Waterhouse said that 75% of entrepreneurs regret selling in the first um year after the transaction. And a lot of that has to do with them not understanding, you know, what makes them tick, what makes them happy, right? To the 90 day test. How many rounds of golf can you play before you're tired? Right, right. You know, okay, fine, go build your dream home. And then what? And how much of your your value also comes from being the boss, you know, of having everybody look up to you every day and talk to you about interesting things and stuff like that. What we try to do is, you know, we usually build a runway, and if they have 18 to 24 months, you can really impact that valuation positively, right? Because you can start to take some of those hats off that you've worn for way too long. And you can also improve the bottom line and deal with the gremlins that are in your house and start showing a trend that that you're pretty awesome and and it's worth the investment. And find the buyer who who is what the firm needs, right? Because there's absentee buyers, but there's active buyers. But I think there's a lot of impact you can have if you have 18 to 24 months, both you know, in your mindset, but also in in your books. Yeah, and I think, you know, Pam, you put it great. That 18 to 24 months before you really seek exit, whether it's a buyer, internal success, whatever your option is, a merger, is so impactful. If I were a younger lawyer, what would I do with this firm, right? Tell that story of opportunity, right? Tell the story of, you know, fine, you may be tired, and that's okay. But if you were a younger lawyer, you would open, you know, teach them how to make money that you haven't made yet. Because that's what a buyer is looking for is opportunity for upside. They don't want something that's been completely optimized, but they want something that has some room for for meeting a gap that they have. It was interesting. I was doing uh working with a mastermind group a couple months ago down in Florida, and one of the, you know, just the workshop tasks that I had them do is pitch their firm. And it's interesting, lawyers never usually have a hard time talking, but talking about their firm, or as you put it, what would I do? Like, what is this opportunity? Right. Because as owners, we always know the problems, right? And we can always say, oh, we're so busy, right? Isn't that the typical lawyer response? Like, we're so busy, whatever else. But really, like to your point of payment, I think that's great. If I was 10 years younger, 20 years younger, here is the opportunity, right? That exists with this firm, we're awesome. But if you really, really want to grow and scale this, and you're exactly right, that's what every buyer wants to hear. If I just had unlimited money, time, resource, what could I do with this firm that you've built, right? And for a seller, that's really hard to be like, are you judging me? No, they're saying you've done something great. They just want to know how they can preserve your legacy and take it to the next level. And right pour, you know, fuel on it, right? Pour some gas on it. That's right. That's right. Absolutely. Well, Pam, this has been great. I want to try to close things with maybe a couple quick questions. Can we rapid fire a couple? Go for it. All right. One mind shift, a mindset shift every firm owner should make this week. What do you think it is? You need help. Good one. One thing firm owners almost always overestimate about their readiness to exit or to sell. That they aren't that integral in the firm. Where can listeners learn more about Cathcap and you? Sure. They can email me, pam at Cathcap.com. It's a bit of a tongue twister, C-A-T-H-C-A-P, or visit us online at Cathcap.com. Happy to have a conversation with anybody as they take these journeys because buyers are going to do this transaction many times, but sellers, you probably only sell your law firm once. That's right. And Pam, you know, just for everybody, I think we alluded to it, talked about on this podcast. We've had the opportunity where, you know, of course, we've been on advisory maybe on that exit, that transactional aspect for a seller or buyer, but you and your team have been there to help that seller and buyer or to hold that relationship either prior or during or anything else. And we've seen really the value you have driven in those clients to not just help them through the transaction, but really to give them the confidence and clarity that we talked about a lot to make the right decision. So I greatly appreciate our relationship with you and your CAFCAP team and everything you do for our clients and for anybody else that's listening. And Pam, you win for mentioning two books that actually I have never heard of that, you know, I look over in my library and I think that's pretty good, but I have two books now to add to my list. So thank you for that. And uh I greatly appreciate the time and look forward to connecting uh soon enough. Thanks, Pam. Thank you.