The Check-In
The real scoop on the deals, the data and the drama in short-term rentals.
The Check-In
Why Saying No to Pets Is Costing You Money
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Should you allow pets in your short-term rental? Most operators treat it as a hassle question. The cleaning, the wear and tear, the risk. But when you look at the data across 317 US markets, it turns out to be a revenue question — and the answer is pretty one-sided.
Sarah brings the numbers and Michael Goldin, co-founder of Nook and Good Morning Hospitality, brings the insights. What they find might surprise you. Pet-friendly listings are about half the supply of non-pet listings — and yet they consistently outperform on almost every metric that matters. Revenue potential up nearly 15%. RevPAR up over 9%. Occupancy higher in 81% of markets.
The conversation goes beyond the data too. Why are operators still saying no? What does a properly pet-friendly property actually need? Which markets see the biggest uplift — and which ones don't? And with 48% of Gen Z reporting no difference between their pet and a human child, is the pet-friendly STR about to become the most important amenity in the industry?
Here's a question. If you run a short-term rental, should you allow pets? Most hosts treat it as a hassle question. The cleaning, the wear and tear, the risk. But when you look at the actual market data across 317 US markets, it turns out to be a revenue question. The answer is pretty one-sided. Welcome to the check-in.
SPEAKER_01Hello. Hi, Michael Golding. How are you? Doing excellent, my brother from across the ocean. So good to finally share a podcast stage with you. It's about time, isn't it? It is about time. Yeah, I'm just kind of blown away we haven't done it sooner, but excited to finally be a part of it.
SPEAKER_02Well, look, we're so delighted to have you join us. And Sarah Nandapree, my friend, how are you?
SPEAKER_00I'm good. It's so good to see you, buddy. I miss you.
SPEAKER_02I know. It's obvious to see, isn't it? But you obviously you were in Michael's neck of the woods. Did you did you manage to catch up with Michael at all while you were stateside?
SPEAKER_00I did not. I did not. Unfortunately.
SPEAKER_01I waved to the airplane overhead. Same time zone though, right? Chicago? Central?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Chicago, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I love it. Did you get good weather?
SPEAKER_00I actually did. Everybody was saying that I brought the nice weather. Apparently it was freezing like the day before I arrived. And then every single day I was there, it was sunny. Um it's like sunny, kind of cloudy, but beautiful. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Love it. Well, look, before we get into it, I have a question for you, Sarah, as you were there recently. And Michael, you there because you're always there. Has World Cup fever hit the United States?
SPEAKER_01So Messi and the Argentinian team play in Auburn on Tuesday in my small town in Alabama. So I've got tickets to go see Messi a mile and a half from my house. That's so cool. And it will be the second largest stadium he's ever played in in his life.
SPEAKER_02Wow. Wow. Great stats. Fun fact. Great stat. Are you taking the boys, or are they still a bit young for that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it doesn't kick off till 7:30. So that's that's bedtime. They get to stay at home. I get to go out with some buddies. So we're kind of excited about that one.
SPEAKER_02Oh, Michael, I love it. I really love it. Well, it does seem like World Cup fever's hit the US then. That's cool. That's super cool. If it's hit Alabama, it's hit the US. Yeah, I love it. Love it. Um, all right, well, let's get into it. Today we've got a very, very interesting topic. So Sarah Nan Depree has got the numbers, and we've got Michael here to tell us what the view is like on the ground and as a general industry expert and key voice. To anyone who doesn't know Michael, and of course you know Michael, but he is the co-founder of Nook and Story Collection, and also a co-founder of Good Morning Hospitality. So, yeah, we've uh we've definitely bumped into each other in the past, haven't we?
SPEAKER_01Sure have. And we've bumped into each other since the days of uh Antonio's VRWS in Lake Como, what, a decade ago?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Something like that. We're we're we're getting to be the old men of the space. Sarah's still young and spry, but you know, the gray hair is on Leo's.
SPEAKER_00I've been I've been in the industry for 10 years, so I don't know, man. I feel old.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. That was a good that was a good conference. I don't know if we quite do conferences with that much enthusiasm, right? We were we had a good, it was a bit like a stag do, is how I would say how I compare it, I think, to be honest. It's a lot different these days, that's for sure. Bad times are earlier. Well look, let's get into it. So we're we're talking today about a topic that I think it's not really being talked about enough. So it's is there a revenue opportunity being missed by operators to do with having pets come to stay? Sarah, you've got the data. Why don't you start us off there?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so for this week's episode, I looked into data for 317 markets across the US. What's interesting is that about a third of properties are pet friendly uh in the US. So just about half uh those that are not uh pet friendly. You've got 573,000 pet-friendly listings, 1.13 million that are not pet friendly. And then when I started looking into the data, some interesting things came up. So across the board, there's no real difference in length of stay, which was kind of surprising to me. I would have anticipated that length of stay would have been longer and properties that allow pets because people wouldn't need a pet sitter or something like that, weren't nervous about leaving Fido back home. But it turns out not so. No significant difference at all in length of stay. Where we do see differences is in the median Rev par and in the median revenue potential. So essentially like how much a property could actually earn. So when we look at Rev par across the board, the properties that are pet friendly see 9.4% increase in that RevPAR figure. And then the median revenue potential premium sits at 15.5% for properties that allow pets versus those that don't. Yeah. Michael, you see you see you smiling. Are you surprised?
SPEAKER_01Those numbers are mind-blowing. And if you're sitting on a non-pet-friendly property, unless it's banned by your HOA, to if there's one change you can make to increase RevPAR by 10%, that's an easy change to make, it's a no-brainer. Like that that number blows my mind.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. I I was also surprised. I actually thought it was going to be higher. And I thought the length of stay was going to be longer. So I was curious once I ran the numbers. The other thing that really stood out to me were differences based on markets, which I think is something that also needs to be talked about. There, there, there is a growth, obviously, across the board, like in in pet-friendly listings. They're growing like 3.9% versus 2.4% for non-pet-friendly listings. So there is a slight advantage there, uh, basically growing twice as fast. But where we see differences really are depending on the types of markets, which to me was surprising. So let me just ask you guys before we get into the data, what are the markets where you think pet friendly would win across the US?
SPEAKER_01Outdoor markets, near parks or lakes or anything non-urban. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I'd say non-urban. Uh probably I would add into that markets with a bend towards family holidays, I think. So like if it's if it's a drive to let's get kids in the car, dog goes in the boot, you know, versus you had to fly, and maybe it was a couple's trip.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Okay, interesting. Are you ready for the truth? The truth says a couple of things. Obviously, one, if you have to get on uh a massive flight, so Hawaii, shockingly, but yeah, not super pet friendly and no real no real lift there, uh, because nobody wants to fly and put Fido in the hold if they have they don't have to. And then the other thing that was surprising to me, of course, there are some areas, so like uh like Norman, where you would anticipate that kind of behavior. So people wanting to go to these sort of mountain lake destinations. Major cities, so urban markets also uh see this big uplift in pet-friendly properties, both in their quantity as well as in the revenue uplift of those properties. So New York City, for example, yeah, there's a 45% uh increase in in Rev Par for pet-friendly properties, which is crazy, right? So there's some markets where it's exponential. If we look at um yeah, Long Island, 68%, uh as well as Lake Norman. Where I was surprised was that areas that have national parks. So maybe I don't know, Michael, if you've ever been to a national park, I've never been to a national park, but maybe there's something there that should be looked at. But essentially like Bozeman, Yellowstone, uh, Park City, Glacier Area, apparently negative correlation here. So I don't know if there's restrictions on being able to allow pets in the national parks, or perhaps people are scared to take their dogs because they don't want to get attacked by a bear. I don't know what the vibe is, or maybe because they're going like wild camping. But that to me was a bit surprising because I would have anticipated those areas to be um showing kind of the similar stats to like the normal mountain lake destinations.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that one's a tough one to explain, except for maybe two points. A lot of those are fly to markets, Montana. No one's driving out to Montana. And then I'm curious if you have the data in front of you, but maybe m so many properties are pet friendly out there already that it just doesn't have an effect. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Not not necessarily. So essentially what the data shows is that in those markets, uh, there tend to be higher-end vacation homes. So it seems to be more of a preference. It's not really the the percentage of properties that are pet-friendly or not, it's more about the uplift in that Rev Par that we're looking at here. So the the interesting thing is that they do tend to be higher-end properties, especially the ones that do not allow pets in these markets. And so that has skewed the data significantly to the fact that, yeah, we're assuming this has to do with the owners, they don't want to have to deal with it. And so they decided not to allow pets, which shows no real uplift in that RevPar figure.
SPEAKER_01That makes makes some sense. One of the things, maybe to draw a baseline, each of us has been in the industry more than 10 years. I've never really heard anybody talk about pets at all. But Sarah, when you say that 10% of RevPar can be achieved by becoming pet friendly, like why are people not talking about that? That's crazy. And then a couple more uh Chat GPT friendly stats pulled before the the show. One in five American households added a pet during COVID. And what is it? 71 million households have a dog, 53 million households have a cat. So 95 million in total have at least one pet. That's about 50% of Americans have a pet at home. And no one in the industry has talked about pets in short-term rentals. You see it more and more in apartments and more and more in hotels. I don't understand it. Why has no one talked about it? So interesting, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02The I agree. We we see a lot, we're at a lot of conferences, and also we're consuming a lot of online content, right? On social media or longer form podcasts, things like this. And people talk about monetizing the guest experience. That comes up a lot, doesn't it? So it's like, how can you monetize the experience? How can you make a relationship locally to to be the king in your market or queen in your market? And then the amenities seems to come up all the time, right? Build a pickleball pickleball court and put a basketball hoop up. Well, all of that takes in Yeah, it's investment, right? It's big investment to do it, isn't it? And again, it takes land, it takes space, and you're then potentially creating uh a situation where you're you're leaning more towards one type of traveler that's traveling with a family and is going to be using the property more as opposed to someone who's coming as a couple that just wants a nice base with a nice view, you know. So it you're pigeon you're pigeon-holing yourself with those decisions ultimately. Don't think we're wrong, and you could you could play the tapes back and find me jumping on the amenities train for years. I've talked about it myself. But so please, no one do that. But yeah, I I I think you're right. This is this is a very, very cost-effective way, it seems, of of massively changing your numbers, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I think, you know, off the top of my head, why people don't do pet friendly, one, maybe the HOA bans it, right? Or the condo association. Two, maybe the homeowner's allergic to cats and dogs or hates animals. You know, we won't name any names, but who would who would that be? Who could that be?
SPEAKER_02Honestly.
SPEAKER_01For the record, I have two dogs and a cat, so it's uh it's not this household. But but the other components are are probably around liability or compliance and regulations, and you know, the US has service animals and the the laws and rules around those. Are there any other things that you guys can think of why someone wouldn't do it?
SPEAKER_02For me, I think it goes back to the point you made earlier about how one in five Americans households added a pet. Or was it one in five Americans added a pet during COVID? I'd say that the the data's probably the same. But the data I imagine is the same for Europe and certainly like urban areas. So as you guys like to tease me about, I'm an I'm a more of an urban guy than I am a countryside guy. You don't say. Um and um and the places I've lived in, you notice dogs everywhere, like you know, and and people, small dogs if you have a smaller home or an apartment, right? It's not, it's it's becoming more common. And I wonder if we just haven't quite, we haven't just quite caught up to that yet. You know, Sarah, you asked us at the top what market you thought it would be, and I was straight to the family dog, goes in the back of the car, drive to market, lots of fresh air. When really, you know, on my street that I'm sat on right now, where there's 50 townhouses, there's probably, yeah, probably a good, a good chunk of the owners here. I see them walking their dogs and and uh up and down. So I think maybe there's a Michael, maybe there's a uh a dog owner, a persona that we all gravitate to thinking is is the reality. And really, it's many more personas than that. There's many different types of dog owners, I I would imagine.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the young single that has uh a pet in their flat to keep company. Like that's a huge probably a massive cohort, especially the one in five that that added a pet. Yeah, it it's the the data was there anything else that jumped out, Sarah, because the data's pretty compelling. I I think to your point, the lack of additional nights was pretty pretty shocking. Um, I believe I've seen some older data that said 28% of listings were pet friendly. So now we're up to about 33%. So there is some good positive growth. And that's gonna cap out at some point because of the things we mentioned earlier. Maybe it caps out at 50%, maybe it caps out at 65%. I don't know. But increasing the ADR, the data you pulled, it increases ADR by six percent. I mean, again, one of those, if you can turn this on, and this is just pricing data, right? This has nothing to do with pet fees that the property managers can also collect on top of it.
SPEAKER_00Correct. Yes. This is just increased revenue or increased occupancy. Like, I I think for me, the most shocking still is the market breakdown here. So like urban metro markets across the board, a 27% premium in the revenue potential. So 30k, 30.6 for non-pet friendly versus 39,000 a year across all urban markets in the US. Suburban, kind of similar data. You've got 39,000 more or less for pet friendly versus 31 for non-pet friendly. So 26% uplift in suburban areas, mid-sized city is 16% uplift. And then coastal and mountain lake destinations, where I would think everybody would want to bring their dog because they're more leisure destinations and you want to be hiking or running on the beach or whatever. Only an 11%. Yeah, I was I was super surprised as to why people don't do it. I agree. I think there's a lot of some of it is probably the property owners who think that it's gonna be way more damaged, perhaps, than it is. I would argue actually that if you do it properly and you have the right cleaning procedures in place, it actually could mean that the property is cleaner than a standard Airbnb. Because I, for example, I have a friend uh here in Barcelona and she owns her own business and they do cleaning of couches, sofas, anything textile, and they work with a bunch of property managers here. So, you know, their first call out was like, hey, we need some data for you guys on which properties have, you know, the most pet which property managers have the most pet-friendly listings uh in these areas. And so now they have these contracts, both with hotels as well as with short-term rentals, where as soon as there's a checkout, they get a notification, they go in and they they deep steam clean everything. So arguably that property is way more clean than one that you stay out where that isn't happening on a regular basis.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I've talked to Jonathan Wicks at Well and Good, and he's mentioned like their cleaning protocol only increases when they know a pet has stayed there. So cleaner properties, more money. You know, I think one thing that probably doesn't get brought up, and and I've dived into this topic a lot over the past few months, but pets are still coming into your house. Whether, whether it's someone not claiming the dog that they're bringing or the cat that they're bringing, or they're saying it's a service animal, in which case you can't charge anyway, and you also cannot decline them, pets are still coming into your house. So if they're already coming into your house anyway, monetize it. Why not? Yeah. How how is this not the new big amenity within the space? We saw this be the hottest amenity in multifamily in America for about a decade. And then short-term rentals being able to allow short-term rentals in your multifamily building was another little wave. It kind of died off, to be honest. But the the pet craze has yet to really, I think, be fully capitalized on. And you know, only a third of American properties are allowing them means it's a huge opportunity for for those that are, and obviously the numbers aren't lying here.
SPEAKER_02So let's talk about how you feel as a pet owner. I'm looking at you both pet owners. Obviously, I imagine you're comfortable paying a pet fee because it's far cheaper than having to put the dog in a kennel. But let's go beyond that, beyond the finances. How do you feel about traveling and leaving your pet in a kennel? Because I think that's maybe one of the trends that has changed with pet ownership is the idea that people are also more keen than ever to travel with their pets where they can, right? And maybe here there's a problem with the airlines. Maybe someone needs to encourage the airlines to allow people to put dogs on their laps and then maybe, and then maybe we relieve some of the bottleneck. I don't know. So maybe we're looking in the wrong place.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, I love Michael. I don't want to be sitting next to a giant lab that's in somebody's lap.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Pet aisles and pet-friendly aisles and non-pet-friendly aisles. Maybe go left if you want to sit with the pets, go right if you don't, right? But tell me, like, how how do you feel about that as a pet owner? Like, are you are you taking them with you where you can, or are you happy to sort of give them to a relative or or get away?
SPEAKER_00If I can, I take my dog I take with me. My cat I leave at home, and I have a really trusted cat sitter who comes and hangs out with her. And so, you know, I can't really travel with her. Cats don't travel well. She've never had a cat. Um, it's a bit of a nightmare. To travel, they don't like it, you don't like it, and then meow the whole time. Whereas dogs, my dog will go anywhere. I have a seven-year-old golden retriever. And yeah, she loves a trip, she loves the train, she loves the car, she loves being able to go out in open spaces. And so, yeah, for sure, it is a requirement that I look at when I'm going local. The only exception I would say is that I think living in Europe, there are so many destinations that are fly only uh that I would go to. So, for example, like if I go to the UK, I can't take her with me. If I go any, if I go to Italy, I'm not gonna take her with me because I'm not gonna drive an extra two days either side and lose most of my trip. So that's the big difference. And then when I do leave her, I don't put her in a kennel. I send her to this lady who lives up in the mountains and she comes to Barcelona. It costs me more money, but who cares? Like my dog is my child, basically, which I think is another trend that has changed. So a lot of those pet owners that were happening during COVID, like there's I I don't want to call it an epidemic, but there is an increase in people under the age of 35 who do not have children of the human variety and such consider their pets as their children. And so the way that they treat them is completely differently to perhaps somebody who might have had a family pet 20 years ago. It's a it's a very different vibe. So yeah, I wouldn't put her in a kennel for sure. Not. I always leave her either with friends. And then if it's a longer trip where, you know, like I'm going to Tanzania in a couple of weeks, I'm gonna be gone for two weeks. There, I'm gonna send her to my my lady in the mountains. She comes and picks her up in the city, she takes her out into the mountains. As soon as they get there, she lives in this big country house. They get a all the dogs get a GPS. They are free to come and go into the house, out of the house as they please. They go on daily walks through the mountains. I mean, she comes back. Oh my God, she has the best. Every time the lady drops her off again, she doesn't want to get out of the car. She's like, why am I going back? Why are you sending me back to this terrible place? I don't, I don't want to go home to mom. Mom, mom doesn't live in the countryside anymore. So yeah, it's uh it's a different experience. It is an expense, but yeah, I think I I think you're, I think you're I think you're onto something there for sure, Leo. Um yeah, I would take her if I can. When I can't take her, the standards I have are also higher.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Sarah touched on the the headline that the pets are the new kids. And Fast Company did an article kind of disturbing, if I'm being honest. But it says 48% of Gen Z report seeing absolutely no difference between their pet and a human child. Kinda not a good data point. Maybe they'll grow out of it. I don't know. Gen Z, you know, we're we're the older millennials now, so we can gripe about the younger generation. But I'm with you, Sarah. I think we we take our, we used to take our dogs all the time, and now we take our kids. And so, but where I'm aligned with you, Sarah, most dog owners hate the idea of a kennel. They're they get locked up for it's jail. They get in dog fights, they get communicable diseases. Like it's just not a good, you don't feel good as a a doggy parent dropping them off at a kennel. If you have to do it, you have to do it. But if there's an option to bring your dog, most pet owners are gonna opt to bring their dog versus a kennel unless they have some mountainside resort that they drop their dog off and it gets to run wild and chase squirrels and come home tired and grumpy that that they're back at their house.
SPEAKER_02So it's also a shout out, it's also a shout-out opportunity here, Michael. Sorry to interrupt you, to businesses that allow you to have a house sitter, right? And so you're not so someone gets to come and use your home as long as they walk your dog. And that that then's kind of and that also shows that that economy is growing. You know, those businesses are really booming at the moment, probably off the back of people not wanting to use a kennel, right? So this idea of it being peer-to-peer. So yeah, I think my parents are really good candidates for this. They would that they'd love to just go and be in a nice high home in the country for two weeks and walk the dog every morning and every evening. That's like a dream holiday for them, and suddenly everybody, everybody wins. So, yeah, I think that I think that would suggest the appetite for for giving your dog more of a holiday or you know, a homestay themselves is is is definitely there, right? My question then, if the data shows that it's not a question of whether you should take pets, it's a question of like how quickly can you start and how do you do it safely, as pet owners, and Mike, I'll start with you. What how what is your advice to people? How should they be setting up their listings to get them to make them interesting for pet owners and also protect themselves ultimately?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think there's a a few different aspects. One, update your listing. It's it's pretty Pretty common these days. You know, one in three can do it. Your cleaning protocols and your operations behind the scenes need to be in place because you know I love my dogs, but they shed like crazy. And if I walked into a short terminal and there's dog hair everywhere, I still wouldn't be happy about that. But there's also services like uh a company called Pet Screening that can screen dogs, make sure there's no bite history and they're up to uh shot records, and that it is actually a service animal if the person's saying it's a service animal. So there are services out there that can make homeowners and property managers a little more or a lot more comfortable about pets coming onto their site. And then I think the last is the damage insurance and the liability insurance. And most homeowners' insurance comes with liability insurance, and there's some great damage companies out there that will cover short-term rental damage. So I don't know if you know of any, Leo, but I I've heard they exist.
SPEAKER_02No, none here, none here.
SPEAKER_01Oh, truvy.
SPEAKER_02Truvi's a good idea, isn't it? Truvi's a good idea. Current hog, super hog, true. Yeah, that's it. That's it. Well, I think it's I think it's really important, isn't it, to to remember that where we started here with this conversation is that there's there's money potentially to be made. So like it's worth investing in it. And as we've also said, it's cheaper than uh investing in a pickleball court. There's also a big growth in pet-friendly hotels, right? So I think that also, I mean, that industry is very, very good at analyzing data and looking at at where the trends are. So it's obviously it's obviously something that we do need to be addressing long term, or else we're just gonna we're just gonna lose market share.
SPEAKER_01And you can't tell me it's better to bring a dog to a hotel than a vacation rental, right? Dogs like space just like humans and kids do. So give them space.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So we've got Michael's view from the US. Do you think that that what's true here in the the US data would probably play out the same in Europe?
SPEAKER_00No, I don't. Is is the full stop. Most of the travel that Europeans do is taking a plane because that's just how we're accustomed to traveling. I don't know, in the US, like I thought nothing of like driving eight, nine hours for my annual holiday. Nobody here would do that. That's crazy people talk. You obviously get on a plane. And so I I think that is a that's the biggest restriction in Europe for sure. There are people who have, I in fact, I have some friends who are looking to adopt a dog and they purposely want a dog that's under 10 kilos because a dog under 10 kilos can fly in the cabin with you in a like in a in a little cage or whatever in pretty much any airline. There's some airlines where it's under seven, but like you can, if you take the trains in Europe, you can take a dog on a train. Um, I have one of my colleagues who commutes from Madrid to Barcelona. She actually brings her dog on the train with her. So she doesn't have to yeah, she comes in like three days a week and then goes back to Madrid, brings her dog. No, no problems. It's like easy actually to get the dog on. You just have to have their little, they have a little cute little passport. And so you just travel with a little doggy passport and uh yeah, it's fine. But I but I do think that the you know, the reliance on flight travel is is a major factor. So it's much more for those sort of local-ish travel, which is within I would say a two-hour drive, three-hour drive max where you would be living that you would take your dog. But it's mostly due to restrictions that are not don't have anything to do with the properties themselves or with the short-term rentals. It's it's much more about the mode of transport.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. It's very interesting, isn't it? I think that's about right. Michael, have we have we hit it, have we done it, or is there anything else you think we we should be discussing when it comes to pets?
SPEAKER_01I mean, you're the you're the pro podcaster. So I I think we've we've touched on all of the points that we've we've expected to. I'm curious, I I'd love comments and understanding why some people don't do it if they want to comment in. But to me, I I would do it if I had vacation rentals. Uh, and if you have a property management company, you need to be able to convince your homeowners to do it because they're gonna make more money, you're gonna make more money, and it's gonna be a win-win for everybody.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And the guy in the deep clean company who's got that, who's got that steam. Jonathan Wicks makes more money. There we go. Yeah, there you go. There you go. Sponsored by Jonathan Wicks. There you go. What we're gonna do, we're gonna put together a blog, a report on how to get yourself um get your property pet ready if you haven't done it before. So maybe like we'll get some of the contributions today from Sarah and from Michael, we'll we'll put something together and we'll we'll bring it out online. Because I do think it's an interesting, it's an interesting psychological barrier that some people probably need to get over. Look, I'm probably in that camp of being a bit reticent, a bit shy about it too. But I could I could definitely I could definitely be convinced in the property I was running if if I knew there was logical steps I could take. So it's be nice to have those steps outlined. So we'll put that together. And Michael, my friend, just thanks. It's great to be back being involved in podcasts with you, my friend.
SPEAKER_01Will you come back on? Anytime, Leo. Anytime. I'm shocked we've never done this before with how many times we've done calls together. We've shared GMH together. Yeah. So we we must do this regularly.
SPEAKER_02I think do you know? I think I was on GMH long, long, long time ago. Long, long time ago. I think maybe during COVID you had me on as for 10 minutes, I think. Okay. Yeah, I had a lot more hair and a lot more enthusiasm. Yeah, no regular. Yeah, it was it was a good long time ago. Good, good step. Three kids. Yeah. Yeah, you said just jump on a call, and I could because I didn't have you know like a million other um commitments, so I just jumped on the call and off we went. Lovely, and Sarah, so nice to see you, my friend covering from all that jet lag.