Remembering our original instructions with Madison Murphy Barney

This week, Emily is joined by doula and storyteller Madison Murphy Barney to discuss her new book Our Ancestors Want Us to Be Mushrooms. 

Tune in to hear Emily and Madison discuss…

• Being guided by our ancestors and connecting with them through ceremony, community, creativity, and humor
• How the mystery, diversity, and magic of mushrooms make them potent guides and doulas for creating a liveable, vibrant future 
• Remembering our interconnectivity and how to become villagers even when it’s inconvenient and hard 
• Uncovering our original instructions and sharing our unique creative gifts 

To connect with Madison, follow her on Instagram, visit her website madisonmurphybarney.com, and get a copy of Our Ancestors Want Us to Be Mushrooms.

Thank you Bre Legan for our artwork and Paul Krasnoshchok for our music.

Resources & Links
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🌱✨ Subscribe to the Soil and Stars newsletter
🌔🌀 Receive the free Lunar Living guide and attune to the gentle, nourishing cycle of the Moon

Transcript

Intro

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Welcome to Soil and Stars, a podcast exploring our interconnectedness and unique roles within the web of life. I'm your host, Emily Hall, and I invite you to awaken your mind, open your heart, and remember that you are made of soil and stars. Welcome back to Soil and Stars, a podcast where we awaken and deepen our connections with the living world and cosmos. Thank you for being here. I am so excited to be connecting with you in this way. We are on episode 17 this week. And I have another interview for you today. A very lovely conversation that I'm excited to share that is really growing and expanding upon what we are exploring this season. This season two of the podcast is devoted to Venus. Of course, if you've been tuning in and you've already been along for the journey, you know that. And if you're just tuning in, welcome. Thank you for being here. So Venus, in my relationship with her, as we've been exploring through the last few episodes, is yes, she is a planet, yes, she is a deity, and she is a force of nature. And she is a power reverberating throughout the universe. And she is this force, this archetype, this energy, this power that we can relate to, that we can interact with, that we can embody, and that we can channel. And so the whole intention of season two of the podcast is for us to explore and peel back the many dimensions of Venus. And so one of her core principles, one of her core energies and archetypes is connection. She is the connecting force. She is the relational principle. I think of the web of life. She is literally the web weaving all of life together in this beautiful fabric and tapestry, and she connects us to all things. Connection can be beautiful, it can truly make life so worth living. And connection can be hard. It can be hard when we don't feel seen, when we don't feel understood, when we don't feel held and safe and received in our relationships. That can lead to a lot of struggle in our lives. And so connection can be fraught. And so this week's guest, through her body of work, I feel really embodies this connective, interconnected principle of Venus. And so, dear listener, if you have been enjoying tuning into this season or uncovering the different dimensions of Venus with me, I have a couple invitations for you. Number one would be to please share this podcast with the people that you love. Please help me amplify and grow the reach of this podcast and spread the word. And then if you tune back into the first episode of the season, which is episode 13 called Welcome to the Gates of Venus, you know that I am offering my first group program in the fall. And I'm beginning to really spin this web and pull this program together. And I'm so, so excited. And this is a program for artists, for dreamers, for healers, for Venus devotees to come together in community and experience of Venus retrograde together. And so the program is called Gates of Venus. And there is a little wait list link in the show notes. And I will be revealing a lot more about this program soon. But if you're like feeling this powerful resonance and like, yes, you're loving thinking about Venus in this really multidimensional way and really reflecting on how you can embody and channel Venus in your life, that's what Gates of Venus, this program, will be all about. How can we deepen our relationship with her to cultivate more awe and enchantment and ease and beauty and meaningful connection in our lives? And the thing about me is that I am a community organizer at heart. And one of my unique gifts in this lifetime is to be a weaver and a gatherer. And so if you're looking for soul-aligned community, that's one of the things that I do. I bring people together and I have a gift for cultivating spaces, whether they're virtual or in person, and connecting people who then go on to have really meaningful relationships with one another. So if that appeals to you, if you're longing for meaningful, nourishing community and you like the vibe of soil and stars and kind of this little world I'm building on the uh on the internet here in this universe that I'm creating, and you want to connect with other people who resonate with this universe, then I welcome you to sign up for the wait list. And in the coming weeks, I will be revealing a lot more via email. And the wait list will get you an exclusive discount code, and you'll be the first to receive more information. So those are my announcements for the week.

Meet Madison Murphy Barney

SPEAKER_01 6:17

And now let's get into introducing this week's guest. I am so excited to introduce you to Madison Murphy Barney. Madison is a Shoshone and Hoopa sister, partner, author, doula, and public health storyteller. She offers doula support across all of life's thresholds and is the founder of the Center for Story and Strategy, where she works obsessively to design and implement story-driven strategy with health and justice organizations. Madison writes a weekly newsletter focused on reconnection to self, each other, the planet, and awe through an indigenous birth work lens. She believes everything is birth work if we look closely enough. Madison lives in Vermont with her life partner and their two goats. And so Madison comes on the show today and we talk all about her new book, which is now out in the world. And I highly encourage if you enjoy this conversation to please go support Madison and buy her book. I got to interview her a couple months ago, and I told her this book, like I am one of the people that this book is meant for. I often say that I believe when we are creating art and putting art out into the world, there is a specific community of people who that art is meant to reach and impact. And that's how I feel about Madison's book. I was like, wow, thank you for writing this for us. And so this book is called Our Ancestors Want Us to Be Mushrooms, which write just the title alone. If you know anything about me, you know I love my ancestors. I just love the ancestors in general. You know I love mushrooms. They're such fascinating beings. And so this beautiful book is so special and really like a blueprint and a guide for how we create a sustainable, vibrant, and livable future. And I'm all for writing and teachings and sermons that really inspire us and give us a little map, a little blueprint on how we can not only survive but flourish in this in these times of the great turning. And so Madison and I go into all the different aspects of this book. We talk about our ancestors and how we connect with them. Madison reveals how the mystery, diversity, and magic of the mushrooms make them really potent guides for the times that we're living in. And then we get into interconnectivity and we have this really meaningful and potent conversation about how to become villagers, even when it's really inconvenient and hard. And then we talk about remembering our original instructions, which is something that I deeply resonate with that we are here to awaken and remember. So I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. And I hope you will support Madison by buying her book. The link is in the show notes. So please enjoy this conversation with Madison Murphy Barney.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Hi, thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

I am grateful to be in conversation with you today and just to share a little bit with the listeners. So when this episode is released into the world, it will be a couple months down the road from now, but it will be at a very exciting time for you. It will be uh shortly after your book is published and released. And your book is titled, Our Ancestors Want Us to Be Mushrooms: Wisdom for Living in Balance with the Planet and Each Other. And so that is what we will be in conversation about today. So I would love if we could just start off, maybe if you could share a little bit about yourself and anything that you're feeling on your heart today.

SPEAKER_00 10:42

Yeah, thank you for that. Um, it's yeah, it's fun to think about this coming out as the book comes out as well. And uh yeah, so I am a sister to five siblings, I'm a partner and author, and I'm also a doula across all of life's thresholds. So birth and death, as well as, you know, creative projects, divorce, career change, and beyond. Um, and then on another side of my work, I do story-driven strategy for health and justice organizations. My background is in public health. And as you mentioned, I am also the author of the forthcoming book, Our Ancestors Want Us to Be Mushrooms.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

Yay! Thank you for sharing a bit about yourself. And I was sharing before we pressed record that it's just I deeply resonate with your work and all these different threads that you're weaving. And they feel there's like um just an echo or a resonance between some of the threads that I am weaving. And I too have a background in community health, and I really feel like that really roots me. And um, it also really influences the more creative and kind of mystical side of me as well. But I love that we share that. I think it's so interesting. So, you know, this book is titled Our Ancestors Want Us to Be Mushrooms. And so the listeners who have maybe been tuned in for a bit know that I have a deep relationship with my ancestors, and I can only assume based on the title of your book that you do as well. So I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about your ancestors and maybe how they guided and supported you in writing this book.

Connecting with ancestors and receiving their support

SPEAKER_00 12:17

Yeah, absolutely. Um, so my ancestors are Wind River Shoshone as well as Hoopa, which is a California tribe, and then also mixed European ancestry. I love this question right now because I'm in a really deep dive with my great aunt to learn more about our lineage and like I the part of like my ancestry that I'm always most interested in is like the daily lives and like the little moments that happen and things like that. And that's what I always want to know more about. And in particular, when I think about the ancestors that guided this book writing process, my grand my great-grandmother Esther Burnett Horn comes to mind. Yeah, she's just like an absolute baddie, and she um she was a boarding school child and then went on to be an educator in the boarding school system. And I was just like reading this letter that she wrote many years ago that my aunt sent me about like her time. She did like a trip to Europe to be like an ambassador for indigenous folks in in Europe on like behalf of the American government. And like, yeah, and so I feel like she has just always been this sort of call to power, this call to knowledge, this call to resolve and creativity. Cause like I can I can't imagine the creativity it took for her to like live the life that she lived as well as resolve. And so I think in addition to her and to others, my ancestors really just taught me, you know, to look and to notice and to interpret and to really carry on that lineage of like concentration and creativity that brought me onto the planet. And so I felt a responsibility to that when it came time to like make this into a book length project.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Thank you so much for sharing that with us. I love hearing other stories about people's connections with their ancestors, right? They are literally the bodies, the beings, the humans that we come from. We would not be here without them. And so many of us experience a severance from them, from that lineage, or maybe even our ancestors experienced a severance from their ancestors, from their cultures. And I think it's really powerful when we get to be those reconnectors, or if we're lucky enough that that connection has endured through the generations of being a steward of that. In my case, it feels more of like a reconnection. But even in my own exploration journey, of I really view it as like this rooting of like rooting back into the soil of the earth and then rooting back into my lineage. But being someone in my own family who is very fascinated about this, you mentioned you've been speaking with a great aunt. My family has my specifically my maternal family, my living, my mom, my grandma, my great aunts also very close with them. They have loved me having this spark. And I think it ignites a spark in the whole family. And I think it really is a special way to connect with our living family in different ways and to ask them about their stories. So you mentioned that, you know, an orientation you have towards connecting with ancestors is in is learning how did they live their mundane lives. I'm curious, because a lot of this, right? I feel like a lot of ancestral connection, creativity, spirituality is a lot in the mundane. It's like, how do we weave this in? So I'm curious how like you weave in ancestral connection, uh, reverence in your mundane day-to-day.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

Yeah. A lot of things. So I it's in how I like revere and uphold relationships. I know that's what kept my ancestors alive at the end of um the world as they knew it and kept them, you know, through that portal into the next. And so I, you know, I I hold community and relationships in really high regard. I also I'm a part of a two-spirit sun dance community. So, you know, ceremony is a part of my life, and the medicines of ceremony are, you know, burnt and used often in my home between between ceremony. And then my ancestors are loud, they have a lot to say. And so like I just like I, you know, I hear from them a lot. They, you know, do some meditations and things where you know we're in conversation and and they also one thing I appreciate, like, I know it's them because they have a sense of humor. And I always like, you know, love to think about the origin of sense of humor and and what a um gift it is in terms of this like conversation about survival and and and resolve and things. And so it's like that's a lot of times how I know their voice, and like you know, they make fun of me all the time, and like it's that's really important because otherwise I probably wouldn't listen. And like I think about it too, because like that's how my siblings and I relate to each other too, in many ways, is that sort of yeah, that sense of humor. And I talk about this in my storytelling work all the time of like how what the way we talk about communities is not the way they talk about themselves, and like we need to like figure that out because we, you know, it's like people want to be to see and hear themselves in in everything that um portrays them. And so I just think, yeah, so it's just funny. Like I just hear from them in humor all the time and know that that's like been passed down. And what else do I do? My indigenous name translates in English to swimming spirit, and so I spend a lot of time in the water and use water often as um uh a way of connection and feel connected to them uh around water or in pursuit of water, and then um also, you know, in the work I do, like I think the work I do is very led by them and I think was handed to me by them. And so it there's like that extra element of feeling a responsibility in the work I do as a sort of a gift, a mandate, and a opportunity all at once.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

I love that. A gift, a mandate, and an opportunity. Yeah. I'm curious if you come from a family or a lineage where that connection to the lineage is like strong and enduring, or was that something you've had to rekindle throughout your life?

SPEAKER_00 18:33

Yeah, it's interesting. I think about my generation a lot in in this like interesting moment of like so, like my I was alive when my great-grandmother was alive, and she was, you know, taken from her family and put in a boarding school. So like that, like that reached, and she's also the one I was talking about, Esther Burnett Horn, who was you know the educator and like went on to do these things. And so then, you know, her daughter was my grandmother, and then my dad is my dad. And so when I think about that, I think about how but like i my dad's generation, my dad himself and my dad's generation for many indigenous families was sort of living in that immediate legacy of the boarding schools, um and not as like you know, like didn't have the the opportunity or the um the spaciousness to really like think about ancestry or lineage in this this way that my generation is able to. And I think it's interesting because my generation then I think is like it's sort of we're in many ways the last chance to sort of like reach back and reconnect with some of that knowledge before it is lost off the face of the planet, and of course, so much of our knowledge has been lost in all for all of us and all whoever our ancestors are, you know, so much has been lost through force moving and choice moving and and you know, just like all of the global waves and and things that have happened. And so I think that I just feel a part of a really crucial generation of sort of doing that like that last reach back to to hold on to what is still available and what is still known by the folks who are still here and or what they heard from the folks that came before them. So it's a long answer to your question, but it is I think an individual mandate and a generational one too. And I think something that a lot of folks my age, I'm 31 by or 32, actually just turned 32. Um, you know, that is I think something that a lot of us are grappling with because it can feel like, oh, we weren't, you know, always raised so much in it, or like, you know, maybe knew the art the generations before us for a few years before they transitioned when we were young. And so it can feel like this sort of like while we're the only ones who can do this work, also a sense of like who am I to be doing this, or you know, do I like know enough to do it and things like that. And something that I always say to folks and really feel like, especially in ceremonial spaces, is like we, you know, we hold to the protocol as much as possible and you know, and honor that, and then also know that like one, our ancestors have a sense of humor, and two, like, you know, they know that we can only know what we can know. And so they there's like our intention is felt as well as the action itself. And I think that really comes through is like the intention we go towards this reconnection with is as important as what we reconnect with.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Thank you for offering all of that. Yeah, I so we are very similar in age. I just turned 33. So what when you're speaking, yeah. When you're speaking about the generation, I I have really noticed um that I feel this like spark that maybe not other, you know, my cousins or other millennials within my family, maybe not as overtly. Um interested in this ancestral what I would consider like reclamation, reconnection. But I feel like to have at least one person in the family that is like real, it's like it feels like carrying a torch. And it's interesting. I have a very difficult relationship with my father. And so I feel a little bit more severance from that lineage. But one thing I know me and my father share is he is that ancestral like family history torch bearer for his generation and his family. He knows everything about our ancestors, the countries they came from, you know, how they migrated to America from Europe and like has all this family memorabilia. And I am in a point of actually through, I'm very interested in like intergenerational healing and cycle breaking and really connecting with ancestors and being guided by my ancestors and doing that work here in my human embodiment. And I am feeling like there is work that and relationship rekindling with paternal ancestors that maybe it's more difficult for me to connect with my dad, but I can connect with my grandparents who have passed away, who I carry their name. I I, you know, I have them, I have an ancestor altar at home. They're on my altar. And in a way, so I just say all that to um, I think it's, you know, not not maybe not everyone uh will feel that mandate or that opportunity to be the one um to carry on the ancestral lineage, the stories. But I feel like if as long as there's a few of us out there within the generations, right, that can be the ones who are doing that and sharing that with our loved ones, sharing that with our family, sharing that with our communities, we can be the ones that are that are reconnecting or preserving or handing down. So I just really appreciate everything you've shared and and really how you are that person within your community, your family. Um, and I just feel a deep kinship and resonance with that. And it is something I feel like living an ancestrally connected, guided life, like it does feel like the most blessed way to live for me to know that even if I have like struggles with my living family, um, that I still have the support and love of my ancestors. And that when these ancestors pass, even if they, you know, were were caught up in their own cycles of harm while they were living, that I do ultimately believe that they also want healing and love for the future generations, for me, for my living family, for the ones to come after us. And so I just feel like this ancestral connection is such a beautiful way of life and way of being. And hopefully, folks listening, I'm I'm curious to hear from folks who maybe are those ancestral keepers, or maybe folks will be sparked, there will be an interest or a little stirring in their heart and being like, okay, maybe that's maybe that's my torch to carry and one of my practices in this lifetime. So I'm so grateful for everything you've shared with us. So I would love to weave in, you know, the mushrooms now. So our ancestors want us to be mushrooms.

Why mushrooms are great teachers and guides

SPEAKER_01 25:21

So can you tell us about your relationship with mushrooms and like how did they emerge to you as these really amazing teachers?

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Yeah, it's interesting because mushrooms are really having a moment which is cute and funny. And so it's important to say that like I am not like a balls to the walls forager. I do not know everything about you know every mushroom and I couldn't like tell you what to eat or what not to eat, etc. Uh and I was actually in a few, um, in the process of writing the book, in a few like foraging apprenticeships, and and I just got so annoyed with people who were like, in my view, like obsessed with like knowing the names of every single uh like mushroom and plant and things like that. And if that information is for you and you find it interesting, that's beautiful. And there's like this energy that sometimes comes with it that I experienced in the cohorts I was in of like, oh, I can know the earth. And if I can know the earth and I can like categorize it, and um, and like I to me, I think the most important thing about mushrooms and plants and all ecosystems is the the magic, right? And the unknowable. And there's like um I had explained to me once that in a way that I love of it's like there's like these ingredients in soup, right, that are like the different chunks of things, and then there's like that broth that holds it all together, and that to me is like the unknowable. And mushrooms are so much that in so many ways. And so anyway, so I I just love the mystery of mushrooms. I love the unexpectedness of them, I love the diversity and creativity in them and the magic. And I, you know, came to this point where I I had been writing uh, you know, pretty regularly for a while, and you know, was really sort of struggling with this idea that, you know, sometimes like as humans we make things so complicated, and that a lot of the instructions that we need to get back into right relationship with like our own selves and the planet and our communities is already available and our ancestors lived by it um for, you know, m most of human history and uh the other species around us live by their original instructions. And so I was just trying to think of like what's what is a simple way that we can talk about like having a blueprint to get, you know, back to a livable, sustainable, vibrant, and abundant planet. And mushrooms really stood out. Uh the book covers like eight characteristics uh that mushrooms have that we have too. And and I want to be clear that like when I talk about, you know, that our ancestors had, I'm not saying we we should like go back in time and like give up everything that we might call progress or the ways that we live now. You know, I'm not trying to like I think there can be this danger or this pitfall of like over-idealizing the past, but what I'm saying is that like there are these systems and these blueprints and these ways of being that you know kept the planet and our species healthy for so long. And we can see the points in history where we have like abandoned those and how much havoc that has wreaked. And so, yeah, I so I think it was just like this sense of them as this really elegant and and also uh reliable teacher, and you know, as a doula, I also think of them as a doula in many ways. And you know, a doula is somebody who, you know, I think a lot of the associations with the work is like that it's really like flowery and flowy and soft, but like there's not all the flowery and flowy and soft parts of like a birth or a huge like transition or a death. You know what I mean? And like yeah, and so like doulas aren't there to like tell anybody what to do or like uh create a roadmap. We're there to like sort of witness and follow and support in the transformation and in the crossing of the threshold. And you know, mushrooms literally were that for life on earth. They sort of are what they carried sort of the algae of the primordial goo out of that and onto earth to become plants, to become animals. And so they really like carried life on earth and carried that transition. And additionally, you know, they are the they're the decomposers and the alchemizers. And so I think there was just so much there that I was like, you know, this is the species that's largely responsible for life on earth and thus, you know, a great teacher for how to, you know, to get back sort of into operating as a part of ecosystems where we belong.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

Yes, yeah. I love that you mentioned that mushrooms are having a moment. They certainly are. I feel like they've been having a moment for, I don't know, since 2020, the last five or six years. Like, I feel like the first time they really came across, I mean, I've always been someone that loves to eat mushrooms, you know, but mostly the mushrooms I have had at the grocery store. So I feel like they've been like a food for me for a really long time. Um and so I am an herbalist in training. And so I love plants. I am by no means a mycologist. I don't even think I ever will become a mycologist. Like I'm kind of like you, where I'm like, I in a way that I'm like, I know very few mushrooms. I hope to grow some shiitakis in a little shiitake log at my new house this summer where there's lots of shade, right? Like, so there's, I feel like with the plants, with the fungi, with the mushrooms, yeah, there certainly is that like intellectual kind of approach of like wanting to know them all. Like I'm just thinking of gotta catch them all, like the Pokemon, like gotta catch them all, gotta know them all, gotta categorize them all. And I have several foraging books and like even a mushroom-specific foraging book. Have I really referenced them? Not very often. I feel like in my relationship with plants with mushrooms, I go really slowly and it's about relationship. It's not necessarily about knowing everything there is to know about them, like knowing their constituents. Like, you know, I feel like that slowly comes over time. I'm more interested in like the relationship we have with these other than human beings because clearly they want to be in relationship with us. Like mushrooms having a moment, to me, that is driven by the mushrooms. Like they, like they want us to know them and to be in relationship with them. And I actually wanted to pause and take a moment to read the description of your book because I feel like you've uh just to give folks like an outline of it. Um, because your book is unique. It's not a foraging handbook, it's not like a sign. It is literally like how I feel like how mushrooms can be these guides, as you said, for life and living in these very tumultuous times. So I just wanted to read it. So our ancestors want us to be mushrooms is an enchanting guide to living more in tune with ourselves, our community, and our planet by embodying the innate qualities of the wondrous mycelial world. The more we start to live like mushrooms, the more healthy, just, and abundant our lives will be. Unlike other mushroom-focused books, our ancestors want us to be mushrooms isn't a foraging guide, a scientific examination of fungi or a glimpse into the powers of psilocybin. Rather, it weaves the guiding attributes of mushrooms and ancestral wisdom into an inspiring metaphor metaphor that calls us back into right relationship with each other and with our planet. And so, yeah, this book, I'm like, when I think about like art and writing, like I feel like any creative project or expression, there is like, there are beings out there or humans out there that it is meant for. And I'm like, Madison, I'm meant, I am one of the people meant. I am in the mycelial web of who this book is for. Because when I read it and when I read read the description and shared it with my husband, we were like, oh my God, this like feels like how we are attempting to live life. And I really have been thinking about mushrooms as teachers.

Living in right relationship with all beings

SPEAKER_01 33:20

And so, you know, that last sentence there, right relationship, and you mentioned it a little bit earlier. This is a phrase that I really orient towards in my own life. But I'm curious, what does it actually mean to you to live in right relationship with the earth, with ourselves and with our, with the other humans around us? Yeah, thank you for that.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

And at its core, it really is, you know, viewing ourselves and operating as a part of an ecosystem, right? As like a relative to all with responsibility to all beings. And something that I talk about in the book that um, and just yap about all the time with anyone who wants to listen is that we belong here. You know, I think there's a lot of rhetoric of, you know, like the earth would be better off if there weren't humans and this, that, and the other thing. But like we came to being because we belong here. And there's so many really beautiful examples of uh how, you know, uh in the not so distant past, humans really played integral parts of ecosystems and and supported them. And so I think it's really, you know, living within our original instructions as as contributors and as uh in relationship to all is sort of at its core what that right relationship is. And so as I said before, it's not a matter of like rewinding the clock and going back to, you know, living um, you know, my people lived in like teepees and earth lodges and um other structures as well. And um, that's not what this is calling for. It's just calling for that sense of of re-sort of clicking into our original instructions and into being contributors to the planet rather than you know wreaking havoc on it.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

Thank you for sharing. Yeah, I totally agree. I love that. Being contributors, the word that comes to mind for me is being a steward, uh, being a caretaker and a steward and someone. Yeah, I want to I wholeheartedly agree with you. Like we belong to this earth. And it is, even though I don't have a background in conservation like academically or anything like that, I am interested in in conservation. And again, you know, in whatever little slice of land that I'm living on, whether it's my community garden or I'm about to move into the first house that I'm about to own with my husband and about a moment. Thank you. Thank you. And so we'll have a little bit more land to steward, right? And in the grand scheme of things, it's not a huge slice of land, but I'm really interested in how can I pour my love into this little slice of the earth, which also feels very ancestral again to me. My mother line is Slavic and Polish. And what I have learned about Polish and Slavic people and culture and the immigrants that came over where I live here in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, there's a big Polish immigrant community in the Chicago and the Milwaukee areas. What I've read is that the Polish people really care about relationship to land. Um, and like they would go in as a community as immigrants here, and they would buy plots of land in the city and they would build their own houses because they cared more about tending to and stewarding that land. And that's how I feel. I'm like, I want to have this deep, beautiful relationship with land and with the beings that inhabit that land. And then how can I come in and, you know, maybe introduce a few more native plant species? Um, but I also want to grow a medicinal garden because I am an herbalist. And I want to also grow plants that are connected to my European ancestry and that are not native. And I think there's space for both. So when I think about stewardship, that that's what it is. It's like we do belong here, we do have really important roles here. And unfortunately, I think there's some, you know, ideologies and philosophies within conservation that just says hands off. Like we're we're just destructive, disruptive humans. And that's not the case at all. And I feel like especially indigenous people and indigenous knowledge and wisdom shows us how to be intentional loving stewards. And there's so much that we can learn. So I appreciate you sharing that with us.

Interconnectivity, cooperation, and the hard work of community building

SPEAKER_01 37:29

So I wanted to weave in one of the other principles of the book. You said there's kind of eight characteristics of the fungi that we can embody and learn from. And one of those is interconnectivity. And that's something that I am all about. This podcast is all about, is remembering our interconnectivity and that we are interdependent beings. So, you know, kind of like a two-part question here. One is just like naming that, you know, we keep hearing that we're we're living in this loneliness epidemic. And there is isolation, right? We do live in this very digital age. And of course, there is, to me, there's there's great benefits. You and I would not be connecting if it wasn't for the internet and these digital, these digital mycelial webs, right? And at the same time, there's a shadow side, right? Where there maybe is more um shallow connection or people are not as connected to the people in their neighborhoods, in their communities, um, and are more connected online, but maybe have shallower relationships. So I'm curious, what have you learned from the mushrooms about interconnectivity and cooperation? And also how do you think that addresses this loneliness epidemic that we're in?

SPEAKER_00 38:40

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So so much of what you were saying in the in the just moments ago is is how I think about a lot of this too, is that you know, in learning from mushrooms about interconnectivity and cooperation and symbiosis is is really this tending to our corner of the world and stewarding our corner of the world and our community and our um, you know, I think it's easy to forget that our bodies are also little chunks of the earth, and so like tending to our bodies and tending to the land we're on. And, you know, I think about it as mushrooms, you know, there's not a step we take or a breath we take that doesn't somehow really like involve contact with a mushroom, um with some sort of not necessarily, you know, but some sort of fungi, some sort of mycelium. Um and and like and so I I you know, I think like the mushrooms underground, the mycelial networks underground that are a part of every step that we take probably I mean I can't speak for them, I've never been able to talk with them, but probably aren't so concerned about like what the n mycelial networks are doing across the planet or even, you know, uh thousands of miles away. And so I think that there's this we can there can be this sense of of like despair at the state of the world, and then also like over-responsibility for what's possible for one person to do that can cause us to neglect then our corner of the world, our community, our neighbors. And and I think of it, and I talk about it in the book as almost this like tapestry of like we are, you know, in the and when we care and steward for and tend to our corner of the earth, it that like then we are connected through through networks to other, you know, individuals and communities who are caring and doing that way, and we create this sort of tapestry around the around the planet, and that's really the only way to do it. And I was thinking about this a couple weeks ago. I was in Montgomery, Alabama at the legacy sites created by Brian Stevenson and the Equal Justice Initiative, and I was so struck by so many things. I mean, they've done such incredible work there, but one of the things I was really struck by is the like small moments that like led to, you know, Montgomery being the heart of the civil rights movement and and so much change happening. And you know, it was like reading timelines where it's like, and in this instance, you know, the government tried to get Reverend Martin Luther King on uh tax fraud, but he'd actually done his taxes correctly, so then they couldn't get him there. So then they actually looked at how to drop the insurance of of the church's cars for the um Montgomery bus boycott. And you know, these small examples just make me think, you know, think of like, you know, it's it's not these, it's these actions, these small things, these moments of connection or disconnection or moving things forward are always going to be a little bit more mundane than we think they are, and then like history tells us they are, but that is that is what moves us forward and in and like that is what movement work is, is like those small in-plactions that lead to larger change through like connecting to that tapestry. And so, you know, that relates a lot too, I think, to the loneliness epidemic, because you know, for a while it was really popular on social media for people to say, you know, everyone wants a villager, but no one wants to be a villager. And like I disagree with that so much because I think that we all deeply like want and need to be a villager. We've just lost the knowledge on how and the wisdom on how to be a villager, which is you know a lot different from not wanting it. Not knowing how and not wanting it um are very different. And not knowing how can still keep us from doing it, but it doesn't mean we don't want it. And so I think it is like the thing that at the heart of the loneliness epidemic and at the heart of the revolutions that we need is that sort of small actions of learning to be a villager. You know, if you're going to the store, does the the person you're going to see next need or want something? If you're making dinner, can you make double? Uh, can you co-host a tournament of some type? You know, can you set up a forum for your neighborhood to share tools? And it sounds like, you know, this sort of listification that I can sometimes roll my eyes at of like, you know, there's no way it's that simple, but it is that simple. It's like it's this takes practice and it takes this sort of breaking out of the comfort zone of not reaching across and not making those offers. But um, you know, the something I always tell doula clients as well is that people want to help you and they want to know how to help you. And if they don't know how to help you, then they um will self-direct, and that can feel like the opposite of help at times. And so, like, you know, it's a matter of of asking for and then also offering in a way that just sort of like, you know, sort of breaks down those walls of of fear around what might happen if I do and and what might it, you know, what might result from this. And, you know, and it's also just, I think, s really, really important to note that like community is an absolute pain in the ass, and it is necessary and it is mandatory. And so it's making space in your life for that friction and for that inconvenience of it all, I think, is at the heart of loneliness, of like the our ability to leave completely convenient lives um has. Gotten in the way of us being able to like be human and symbiotic and interconnected. But I think luckily for us it really does start in whatever corner of of the earth we are find ourselves in.

SPEAKER_01 44:11

There's so many threads I want to pull on. And so much of what you're sharing really speaks to emergent strategy by Adrian Marie Brown, which is just like a teaching and a philosophy, a book that I feel like is really foundational to my own life and my way of being in the world. And I feel like so much of what you're speaking to, Madison, is deeply in relationship and in resonance with Emergent Strategy, which is one taking care of our corner of the earth, of the world. And I really like what you brought up about yeah, that that I have heard that phrase on social media on the internet of everyone wants a village, but no one wants to be a villager. And I appreciate you really critiquing that because it is it is, I think it is harmful to say something like that. And like you said, I think at the heart of it, it's I'm kind of weaving in a few things or picking up on a few things you've been talking about. Is I think there is this romanticization. And I even have to like check my own self on it, whether we're romanticizing the past and how our ancestors are more earth-honoring, earth-connected, villaging ancestors lived and really romanticizing that and like, oh, it was so beautiful and perfect and wonderful. It's like actually, there's still a lot of hardship. Um, and uh this like romanticizing of like villaging and also just community in general, right? Like community has become a word that is used so broadly. And and I feel like you said it's a mandate. Like being in community is a mandate, and I wholeheartedly agree. And there's like a romanticization and like a fluff of that we're gonna find this perfect community, this perfect village, we're all gonna get along, we're all gonna meet each other's needs. Like, and that's just not the case. So so much of what you share, I deeply resonate with and just have experienced in my own life as someone who has a background in community organizing, political organizing, and now shifted to more um what I would consider just deep, mundane community work and just being someone that like genuinely cares about knowing my next door neighbors, knowing the neighbor that lives in the in the in the bottom half of the duplex I live in now, having friends in with that live within a few blocks of me and and within my city. And a lot of that, like you said, to be in community, right? We do need to learn specific skills so that we can become villagers. And we all, I feel like it's kind of within our blueprint and within our DNA as humans is to be villagers. Like I feel like that's what we're here to do. Like you said, it's a mandate. And I agree. And I think it's it just requires a lot of skill building. It requires a lot of like inner healing, self-awareness of our own patterns, of our own kind of like ways that we were taught and showed by caregivers or by society of how to relate and kind of interrogating that and learning different ways of relating that aren't rooted in domination or hierarchy or punishment, right? But more rooted in this cooperation and symbiosis that we can learn from the mushrooms. And we can learn also how to be with conflict. I think that's one of the like biggest community-building skills. That's something that I had to start learning about when I was a political organizer in Chicago years ago was well, how do we actually handle conflict and not take it as like a personal attack? Because, or just not want to avoid it completely and run away. And there are skills that we can develop and it just takes time and it just takes practice. And there are so many people out there that we can learn from. Um, so I appreciate you bringing all of this to the conversation. And I think it is really like medicine and just kind of like frameworks and just offerings that we need at this time. So I would love to kind of speak to ask you about one of the other uh characteristics of mushrooms, which is creativity and finding our unique creative gifts. And again, I feel I'm like, I was definitely like one of the people that I just meant to receive this book. It is just so in alignment with just, I would just say, my way of being, my worldview in the world. And I do really feel like we all are here to find our unique gifts, you know, connect with whatever our souls calling. Why did our soul choose to incarnate on earth at this time? I feel like there is a reason. And I love that you're framing it through unique creative gifts. Because I always reframe it as like, what are our gifts?

Uncovering our unique creative gifts

SPEAKER_01 48:42

Um, so what haven't the mushrooms taught you about creativity and finding your unique gifts? Oh my gosh, so much.

SPEAKER_00 48:49

Yeah, so so much. So one, I like again, I've never spoken to a mushroom as much as I wish that I um, or like let me say I've never had a two-way conversation with a mushroom. You know, and my assumption is that like when, you know, like a lion's main mushroom does not see like a coral mushroom and think, wow, I wish, I wish that I was, I wish I was that. And so that's something I talk about in the book too, is this sense of of understanding, you know, our unique expression and and what we are and who we are. And of course that evolves and changes over time. Every life way does. Um, but just this sense of of sovereignty in in craft and sovereignty in expression and in and who we are and and how we express that. And I think it can just be so much easier to learn that from another species because we sometimes have this like perceived innocence of them, you know, of like, you know, that they don't get caught up in like the gossip and the comparison and all of these other things that our human brains lend themselves to. And so I think it's just like it's easier for me to be able to see myself as like one unique expression that could and should be the way that I am, as opposed to, you know, trying to be like almost like a collage of other people that I that I like along the way. And so that's that's one area. And then, you know, sometimes I think mushrooms are so interesting for so many reasons. And one is that they're so showy and they're so like flamboyant. Um, and some of them, and then some of them are like tiny little puffballs, which is also a really beautiful expression. And so I think there's this sort of sense of um of you know, each has their own medicine, each has their own um, you know, and some of their medicine is like, you know, like mushrooms have also started plagues, so like let's be aware of that. You know, there's like there's also, you know, they have they're contested in some ways and have um, you know, different attributes that but I think the when I'm looking at the gift side of it is this this sense of um yeah, independence is I know we just came off talking about the villager, but both are true, right? Like there's the independence of using our unique gifts and and something that we've talked a bit, you know, we've touched a bit on in our conversation so far is this sort of like healing backwards. And I I think a lot, you know, I was born in a responsibility to, you know, the previous in the middle of of seven generations. So the previous generations and the and the future generations and the decisions I make are are meant to improve and and to heal and to reverberate through backwards and forwards. And so with that mandate, I think about like that a real responsibility, right, to to the gifts that I was handed down because they came through such um miracles and such concentration and such intentionality and creativity that like to use what was handed to me is to me like a responsibility and a mandate. And if I don't do that, then I muddy the waters for generations to come. Whether or not you know they come from my body or others' bodies, they're still a generation I'm responsible to. And so, you know, thinking about that and just like this real responsibility to clear the way, to one, you know, go backwards for for our ancestors who, yes, handed us those things, but who also may have been forced to, you know, live in ways that didn't have space for their gifts or for their creative expression, and then on the other side to clear the way for generations to come so that they understand the weight and the importance of their creative gifts and their, you know, unique expression of things because like the thing we certainly don't have time for is like uh blending in and like uh you know, squandering gifts. Like we are in a in a time as a as a planet and as multiple ecosystems where like it is go time to really use all of our gifts towards, you know, creating a world that is like just and livable and abundant. And so like to squander them is it's a real responsibility not to. And to, you know, to try to trade in the gifts we have for other gifts is also a a watering down of them and a diluting of them. And again, we don't have time for that right now. Like there's just simply no time.

SPEAKER_01 53:18

No, so well said. I'm wondering if there's anyone listening out there that is like, yes, like I really want to embody and live my unique creative gifts, but maybe they are struggling with that a little bit. Would you have any advice or any, you know, steps you had to take to really find like what was your unique gifts instead of like I like what you said, the image of a collage of like other people in your life or other friends or family or even people you admire. Like, what can someone do or what have you done to really find what your unique gifts are?

SPEAKER_00 53:52

Yeah. I uh I a couple things. I think the main thing is getting and this is why, again, I'm such a proponent of doula care, is is getting really clear on your own sort of roadmap and your own what you need to be well, who the resources you need and things like that, uh, to to be able to like just have, you know, because it can be hard to be able to tell the difference sometimes because everything is so loud, the difference between like what our gifts are or what what we think we should be doing or what we've been told or conditioned to do. So I think there is this real call to simplifying and like peeling back and creating our own roadmaps through where we want to go. And our ancestors certainly often are on board for supporting that. And they might feel a little apprehensive, you know. Like if you are the first, which is the the case for for me and some of my siblings, you know, the first folks to achieve like true stability in some ways, you know, your ancestors might be like, no, no, just stay there, you know, like you're you know, you're good, like just like be well, be safe, because like, you know, that's all that's what a lot of the uh the generations before us, that's all they that's all they, you know, when when you don't have that safety, that's all you can focus on and want. And so, and so just understanding that they're you know, like that it will take a lot, like slow steps of trust building with yourself, with your lineage, with the people around you, and not to like, you know, every ecosystem, every species, you know, in like can sort of seemingly pop up overnight or you know, sprout or grow overnight, but it's a it's also remembering of like the groundwork underneath that that led to that sprouting, and and mushrooms are a great example of that too, right? Like they have these, you know, endless underground networks, and then the fruiting bodies come up once in a while, sort of unexpectedly, what every once in a while after rain, but sometimes not after rain, sometimes before rain. You know, so it's it's sort of that that sense of knowing that like as you look towards the fruiting body and that full expression of yourself, knowing the like groundwork that it took and to get there and and laying that bit by bit. And, you know, it's it's the same thing we hear all the time, right? Like one day at a time, or you know, through, you know, a lot of people are doing artist pages now. And if you're a journaler, that's great. If you're uh go on a walk and think about it for a long time person, that's great. You know, finding the ways where you can really like connect in with that and get clear and sort of remove a lot of the noise that is like clouding your vision of of what wants to become and and what wants to be, I think is is the main way. But it it's like there's no one way, right? It's it's knowing your own and getting really uh being able to like sort of peel back and like strip down to the point where it's like all you can see is is you in that and and what your unique offering is. It's not like you know, for some folks, it's like I have one sibling home like like he just has been him since the moment he came earth side. And you know, I meet babies like that sometimes too, and like and we've just like known his gifts for so long, and I think a lot of that can be helpful too. And like when I look at pictures or hear stories of my younger self too, I can have that sense of like, oh, that's you know, like that's who I'm trying to get back to in many ways. So, you know, whether or not you have memories, I I have found a helpful and it might or may or may not be helpful for other folks of you know, like remembering stories of who I am or asking people who are loving and who are there about who I was, because I think that can be a really good revealer of like preconditioning and pre-all of that, you know, like who were you as a blanker slate and what were those gifts that you were sharing, you know, as a child. And and that can be challenging, right? Because like to go back to that point can also be to go back to the you know, the point when like so much was taken from us or where it really started to get clouded and and where we were told those, you know, to leave those gifts behind to do something safer or different. And so it's by no means like a uh always a clear rival, but it's always a worthwhile one, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 57:59

Wow, thank you for offering that. I was like, you as a doula is really coming through in that response to me because, like you said, the when we move through a change, when we move through a transition, or even when we're trying to move through this journey of figuring out who we are, why are we here, it is really messy. Like you said, I really like the thinking back to the childlike self. And even if that does bring up struggle, right? Having, you know, the resources or, you know, just the support around you to go back to those times because they there are, you know, there can be trauma in in those early years for so many. And at the same time, going back and meeting our inner children, and you know, whether whether you believe in reparenting the inner child or write any of those kind of, you know, inner child healing work, I think it is really worthwhile sitting with our inner children. I know that's a practice I do a lot, and I feel like they have so much wisdom to share with us. So, Madison, I just really appreciate everything that you've shared in this conversation. I am so excited to get your book in the mail, and I will be amplifying it and sharing it with everyone I know. And I highly, highly encourage the listeners, if you've resonated with anything that Madison has shared today, to please buy her book. It is out in the world as this as this podcast is airing. And so, Madison, is there any final reflections or anything you wanted to share that you didn't get to speak to yet?

SPEAKER_00 59:32

I think it it really is that uh, not that I didn't get to speak to it, but that, you know, to to just bring us back is that we know how to do this and we we you know it is in us and it is what we all yeah, it's in our original instructions, like we know how to, we know how to do this, we know how to like cross this threshold into one where everybody is, you know, safe and nourished and all these things. And so I just I believe so wholeheartedly in that and yeah, and I'm just so grateful to be alive in a time where we are all finding our way and so interested to see how you know how folks are finding their ways and would love to hear how that is going for for anyone. And yeah, just grateful to have had this conversation and this time together.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:19

Thank you, Madison. I will include links to connect with you in the show notes, and thank you so much for your time. Thank you for writing this book for us.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:27

Yeah, my little love letter to us.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:29

Yes, and thank you to your to your ancestors as well, and um, thank you to the listeners until next time. Thanks all.

Outro

SPEAKER_01 1:00:45

Soil and Stars is a labor of love that is edited, produced, and hosted by me, Emily Hall. Thank you to my dear friend Bree Legan for designing our enchanting logo. And thank you to Paul Krasnoshok for our music. To support the show, subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, leave us a review, and share this episode with the people you love. You can also become a patron for $5 a month or $50 a year by subscribing to the Soil and Stars newsletter at of Soilandstars.substack.com. Your patronage supports the sustainability of this project and will help me hire professional support in the future. Thank you for tuning in. Visit the show notes for links, to connect with our guests, to subscribe to the newsletter, and for other resources mentioned in this episode. Thank you.