We Tried to Tell You

How to Prevent (or Recover From) Burnout

• Marie Greene & Sarah Keller • Season 1 • Episode 22

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0:00 | 41:29

Burnout: it's not just a buzzword. Sarah and Marie discuss actively living through burnout, and trying to untangle it in real time. In this episode, they get honest about the signs that burnout is coming, why "self-care" isn't actually the fix, and why the hustle mentality that used to feel like a badge of honor has started to feel more like a trap. 

Learn more about Sarah here: www.knotanotherhat.com

Learn more about Marie here: www.oliveknits.com

SPEAKER_01

Welcome to We Tried to Tell You, a podcast full of unsolicited opinions about life, fiber, and everything in between. I am Sarah Keller and I am Marie Green. And today we're going to talk a little bit more about burnout.

SPEAKER_00

Burnout.

SPEAKER_01

Can you tell this is something that's very top of mind for me? Thinking about it a lot. I I heard a statistic recently, and I actually don't know if this is data driven. So don't quote me on this. But somebody said it takes three to five years to recover from serious burnout. And yeah, I was kind of concerned about that.

SPEAKER_00

Does that mean that there's never been recovery? I was wondering. Because it's if it's just like one burnout after another every 12 months, then is that ever even fully recovered?

SPEAKER_01

I don't think so. I was hoping it would take like three months. That was my yeah. That was my hope. And we don't have the luxury of like just burning everything down, like sometimes I consider doing. And then right. And then spending like three to five years at a Zen retreat. That sounds great.

SPEAKER_00

Where is the time where you you rebuild it all back up? Like that's not including that time either.

SPEAKER_01

So right, right. Well, we have to simultaneously exist, make a living, do chores, be there for our families, volunteer, whatever, run a business, and keep it all together. Keep it all together, simultaneously untangle our burnout and prevent future burnout. That's not like a piece of cake. So easy. It's only like five things. But I figure if it took years to get to this point, then okay. It makes sense that it takes a little time to undo it. To undo it. And so I want to talk about untangling the burnout, but also preventing it. And I've kind of come to a way of thinking about it that I think they are sort of one in the same. But you strike me as someone that does such a good job at creating balance. So do you actually feel burned out ever?

SPEAKER_00

That's hilarious that you said that. Yes. Uh yeah, I definitely feel burnout big time. I do think that I'm pretty good at giving myself breaks, but that's usually because I am feeling massive burnout. And so, yes, I short answer is absolutely. Absolutely. And it's something I've struggled on and off with, especially as I've entered perimetopause, because there's a lot of crossover. You know, is it brain fog or is it burnout? Is it and or is it uh inattentive type ADHD? Uh like there's there's so much kind of muddying the waters, but no, yeah, I absolutely experience burnout.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Well, that makes me feel better. I'm assuming. Um, Marie, do you ever experience burnout? Me? Never. Oh my gosh. I'm a machine.

SPEAKER_00

Uh I are a machine, but that might be why you find you experience burnout.

SPEAKER_01

I think so. I think so. And I definitely think that you you're on to something when you said perimenopause, the age aspect reaching that point where you're just sort of out of, I don't want to say what I want to say, but you know, where you're like over it. That's a polite way of saying it. Right. Um, otherwise I'm gonna have to mark this episode as explicit. So let's not do that. But you are out of out of things to give, out of things to give. Um, yes. And I think some of it is, you know, that wisdom that comes from age and that experience and just recognizing how much we've been over giving. And for me, it's like constant busyness. And I love to over-promise and over-deliver and have a lot on my plate and stay busy and get a lot done. And I'm just realizing though, I'm not a machine. I want to think I am.

SPEAKER_00

Uh-huh. That word busy, that's a that's a big word in this whole topic. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It is. And I also have had to really reckon with this reality that energy is finite. Because I have sort of, you know, you recognize that the hours in the day are limited because we only have so many. But I think we treat energy like it is an unlimited renewable resource that is just always flowing. And so I commit myself based on this idea that I can always summon additional energy for anything I need to do at any time in the day forever. And that's going, it's not going great. It's been, it's led to my downfall. And so between perimenopause and then uh chronic illness, which is like new in my life. Well, it's not new, but it's newly diagnosed. I'm realizing that I have been sort of misaligned in what I've thought about how much I can physically do.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And I think that there's a lot of pressure to produce, a lot of pressure to be all the things. And we see this high production in on Instagram. Everything that we see, it's not only that ever it seems like everybody's doing a thousand things, but they're all doing them really fast.

SPEAKER_00

Well, how popular is the word hustle? I mean, you know, that just there that that explains it, you know, it's all about the hustle.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I think I used to really love my connection to that word. And I took a lot of pride in how busy I am. And same, you know, there's a lot to untangle there, I think.

SPEAKER_00

Um I mean, age, I think is a big part of it. I would be really curious to know what some 30-somethings feel about the word hustle. Because I can say, like in my late 30s, early 40s, I also was like proud to be a hustler, right? Yeah. And uh doing it all and getting it all done and constantly trying to come up with new things and ideas and generate and all of it, but at what cost? At what cost?

SPEAKER_01

At what cost? I think younger people, I'm learning a lot from them. The younger generations are coming into this, probably seeing a lot of us as cautionary tales, um, as they should.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And recognizing I don't want to live like that. And, you know, and maybe I would say I think there's some conversation I've heard about how maybe some of the younger, younger generations are maybe over the pendulum swinging so far over where they're like, I don't want to do any of that. I don't know what that healthy middle ground is. But I think a lot of what we have to do to prevent burnout or deal with burnout is recognizing that we're allowed moments that are not productive where we're not producing something. Because for me, I have monetized almost every aspect of my life.

SPEAKER_00

And you know, it's really hard for women, especially, I think.

SPEAKER_01

And it's like if I can, then I should, is what I sort of I think my default. And so everything has a deadline, everything's a product, everything is an outcome. And of course that leads to burnout, duh.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Of course it does. But it's so hard. Like the the pressure on women, especially, to have every ounce of our time equal something in, you know, it equals some product or outcome or productivity level. That's a very real issue. And I I think also our generation, it's also an issue. You know, we're talking about the younger kids. When we were growing up in the 90s, coming coming of age into adulthood in the early 90s, we could decide to hustle and see um results from that. We would get a trade-off from that. And kids these days, they're like, what's the trade-off? I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna make any more money. I'm not never gonna earn enough to buy a house. So, like they're not, they're not seeing any return on their investment, like we could easily see when we were, you know, 30 years ago.

SPEAKER_01

That's a great point. You're right. That's probably what launched us into this in the first place was if there was more of a cause and effect, very quickly you could see, you know, the investment and the reward. And that's not so much the case now. And I think too, we have this industry that not only encourages us to overproduce and to be constantly chronically busy, but also then it prescribes the antidote, which is self-care. And I say that with like big quotes, because it's gonna take more than a hot bath and a facial and the right, you know, $150 skin cream or whatever thing that Instagram thinks I need to see today.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

To unpack everything underneath the burnout. It's not gonna fix anything, it'll make you feel okay in that moment, but is it really gonna solve the problem? I don't think so.

SPEAKER_00

I think it's like no, it's uh it's totally a phrase that's been co-opted to um be something that we're supposed to adopt to give to make us feel better. And then everyone's mystified when they've done the thing that this equals self-care, quote unquote, and they don't feel better.

SPEAKER_01

They don't feel better. I know it's really interesting. I have long struggled to give myself time to do anything that does not feel productive. So a good example of this is my garden. I loved a garden, but for most of my life, I would get really excited about the garden, put everything in, get it all planted, and then I would be so busy for the rest of the spring and summer with my business that I would kind of neglect it. Yeah. And then I wouldn't really get a lot out of that. Because in my mind, it was like, well, I don't have time to go out in the garden in the morning because I have emails to answer and I have videos to make and I have patterns to write and all the things. And I feel the pressure of everyone's expectation. And I mean, I also created an expectation that I am a machine and I just constantly produce. So it was sort of this like vicious cycle. But now I get to the age of 51 where I'm realizing I've spent all these years with this beautiful garden right outside my window and I never am in it. And so this year, I I'll tell you what, man, I am moving and shaking in this new way of being. I'm really, really taking it seriously because I think I have to, you know, I think my body decided for me that guess what? You don't want to say no or slow down or set boundaries, I'm gonna do that for you. But now I try and get out in my garden every single day, whether it's first thing in the morning or if my morning gets busy, I do it right after I finish all my emails. And it's been so nice to just, I don't take my test there. I pull weeds, I check on all my plants, I make sure everybody's got water. You know, I get I give my peas a little encouragement and tell them good job. How cute you are, you're doing great. And it has been so nice to just slow it down a little bit and allow myself that little time that's not productive. That's the same reason I don't like to exercise though, because it's not serving a purpose.

SPEAKER_00

It's a mental thing where I'm just like, this is the biggest waste of my time. Like, why there are so many things I could be doing right now. Um you're doing it though. Exactly. I know there it's ridiculous. It's a ridiculous thing, but it's just the way I trained my brain.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, can you hear my dog snoring? I cannot. Okay, good. If anyone's listening and you hear snoring, it's not one of us. It's Greta. She's in my office laying on the floor, snoring like a bagpipe, just really going after it. So anyway, um, so I've been thinking about this topic a lot because I'm also working on because here I am saying, like, I'm gonna do less, do fewer things. But I'm also working on another, another book side project about creative burnout, uh, because it's just been something that I'm thinking about constantly. And I thought, you know, I'm just gonna write down kind of what I'm working through. And and I think really that that connection between how we recover from burnout and how we prevent burnout, I think they are sort of one and the same.

SPEAKER_00

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I see I absolutely see what you're saying.

SPEAKER_01

Right? Like, yes, the things that prevent it can are the same things that I'm doing now to try and recover from this chaotic hustle life that I've noticed.

SPEAKER_00

So maybe it becomes more maybe it becomes more about recognizing the signs of it coming. Yes. So that you employ those things before rather than just trying to use them as a band-aid after the burnout's fully arrived.

SPEAKER_01

So before I share some of the thoughts and we talk about what we think is a good way to prevent and recover from, what would you say some of the signs are that you notice for yourself when the burnout is coming on?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um, so this is one of the things that I was saying is a little confusing in this in my age right now, but a lack of focus is a big one for me. And there was a period of time where I was undiagnosed with a bit of a thyroid issue. Okay, so we got the thyroid meds. And so then it was just like, now is it is it perimenopause? Now is it uh ADHD? But that's always a sign. I can go through periods with lack of focus, but when it's a really like intense multi-day week, kind of just can't get my brain to engage. That's that's a clear sign. And you know what the irony is, is it always takes me way too long to clue in that that's happening. I don't know why, but that's a big one. Um, and then also for me, and it's like an internal negative attitude. So I'll get kind of like this chippy voice in my head about either events going on related to my business or the people I have to interact with related to business or vendors, or you know, just like uh when I'm chippy and negative, that is not my normal state of being. But that's a that's a sign that I'm getting um that I am definitely getting close to that burnout zone. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

How about those are great, those are great, you know, very similar. The lack of focus, and like you said, takes me forever to clue into that and realize oh, you know, and definitely getting snippy, not so much in my head, but like with my husband. And I'm self-aware enough that the minute I do it, I'm like, I am so sorry. That is not how I feel.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_01

You are my favorite person, and I am so sorry that that just jumped out of my mouth.

SPEAKER_00

And he's so happy for at least being able to own it.

SPEAKER_01

Right. I mean, I try and own it as fast as I can because I don't want to behave that way, but I will just kind of develop a short fuse or become impatient. And I think short fuse.

SPEAKER_00

I wrote that right here somewhere. Yes, short fuse.

SPEAKER_01

And I think for me, I will kind of be going around with this low grade anxiety in my chest. Sort of I can feel it sitting in there. It's not my thoughts, it's just this sort of like feeling in my chest that is like anxious in the way like I'm in a hurry. Like it feels like I have, you know, hurry, hurry, hurry, get this done, get this done, deadline, deadline. That kind of feeling in my chest is sits on me. And I I have started to notice that when that is ever present, that's a pretty good sign that things are super out of balance and that I am not going anywhere good because that is how I get to the point of uh, you know, messaging you and saying, all right, I'm lighting a match, I'm burning everything down right now. I like I can't take it anymore because I'm I've just overloaded myself. And I was starting to say this earlier, but like nobody did this to me. Yeah. I fully recognize I'm doing it to myself. Yeah. But then it's also up to me to figure out how I'm gonna solve it. Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Um how to stop doing it to ourselves. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Yeah. So I think part of it is, you know, in thinking of, all right, now how do we unravel this? How do we prevent future burnout? And how do we deal with burnout when it does start to show up so that we don't have to spend three to five years getting out of it? I don't know who has the luxury of three to five years, right?

SPEAKER_00

Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I am, I want to know how. Tell me all your ways. Um, but I think the first thing is recognizing that energy is not unlimited.

SPEAKER_00

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01

Because nobody can really measure that. And I don't think we see that modeled in society at all to recognize.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, God, no. No, we don't.

SPEAKER_01

You know, and I'm also trying to really get better about not pushing that. I have been like if you had asked me years ago, even just a year ago, I was working like 16 hours every single day, seven days a week, forever. No wonder I burned out. Like I never stopped.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_01

I would work, I would work from the second I woke up in the morning until the second I went to bed. And then I would just repeat every single day.

SPEAKER_00

And this is a hard one because we like working.

SPEAKER_01

I like working.

SPEAKER_00

So, and we both we both have this in common that we like to do our work. So it's really easy to just fall into that 16-hour a day habit because it's enjoyable. It doesn't mean it's not taking its price on us, it but we'd like it. Like it's mentally engaging.

SPEAKER_01

So I think that's why it's so easy to fall into that. And I've had to start to notice okay, there are times in the day where my brain is way clearer, and I have the mental energy to do all the spreadsheets and all the math of my business and of pattern writing. And I don't necessarily do as good of a job at 2 or 3 p.m. from that point on. I'm just my brain starts to shut down and I just feel like it's kind of brain fog and mush. And that could be partly perimenopause, but also just you can only stare at a screen and crunch numbers and make spreadsheets for so many hours a day before it does start to, you know, you cloud over a little bit.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And so part of it is okay, what time of day is my energy the best? And I'll do the focused work during that time. And then I save the things like the knitting time. I still have to knit to a deadline, but I don't need an excellent brain for that. Right. That can be my afternoon thing where then I make a cup of tea and maybe I put on a little documentary or I listen to an audio book and I'm just doing the knitting part. That's great. You know, so some of it is balancing what time of day I do things and then when I call it good.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, recognizing your own patterns or strengths and weaknesses. And you know, it's no surprise we're both morning people and I feel the exact same way. And my day is often structured the same way, where like the more intense grueling work tasks are gonna happen on the first half of the day, and then like the knitting, etc., will come in the second half of the day.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It works great when you kind of figure out how you work best. And you don't try to fight that and not try and fight it. Absolutely. And I think the other thing is recognizing that we don't owe all of our time or energy to other people. Like some of that is allowed to be for us. I always have struggled with feeling like I have to explain myself or apologize for needing a few minutes of a break or needing to say no to something or just not to commit to more things. And and I think it's hard because I love my community so much and I want to say yes and I want to give them everything they want. And sometimes I have to disappoint them. But otherwise, there won't ever be any extra time for myself. And I think creative people really, really need white space.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well, because it and that comes back to we're doing something we love, you know. So it's easy to be like, well, I don't need a break from this. It's the thing I love to do. But that's a that's a that's a a lie that we're being told by something, maybe the dopamine in our brain or something that um that we can do, even if it's the thing we love that we can do it all the hours, all the days.

SPEAKER_01

All the hours, all the days.

SPEAKER_00

So that white space, that's a you should expand on that. Like, what does white space mean to you?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So white space is that time you give yourself that doesn't have any restriction on it. It's to think, to create, to daydream unaccounted for time that you don't non-billable hours, non-billable hours, right? Non-billable hours, and you don't have to apologize for it, you but you do have to intentionally make time for it. And yes, I notice, and you know, kind of thinking back to how do we recognize when burnout's happening, I can tell I have not had any white space when my creativity does not feel fun anymore.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, there's a little uh level unlocked for me personally. Really? Yeah, just because I um, you know, I like to write patterns and I do write, you know, 12 to 15 a year, but it is not enough, I am not always very creative. And so finding that moment where my brain is gonna engage in some. Creative thinking is becoming harder and harder, but I think it's because I'm not giving myself that white space. Oh, okay. Sorry. Okay. Back to your white space.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well, I know I need it for sure. And when I am knitting on deadlines constantly, which I am, and again, I this is not a complaint. I love to knit. I love to write patterns. I love my knitting community. Like if you're listening, I love you. I love you. I love you. But it is still work, right? And when everything I do is a deadline, I will start to just feel like, oh, this is like I won't think this pattern is any good. I I feel like, oh, I don't even know if I have any more good ideas. And it's like, I just need to get this done. I that I start thinking that way more like I just need to finish this. I just need to get this done.

SPEAKER_00

If I can get this done.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And then when I do though, if I actually give myself a little window of time where I can just play on my needles and just if you're not a knitter, that would sound really weird. Play on your needles, but you know, experiment with a little bit of yarn and a little bit of knitting needles action, you know, going, I I will start to be excited again. Yeah. And I will start to think, ooh, oh, this is really fun. And it feels fun again. And I think it's because I gave myself a little moment that I don't have to owe to anybody. Exactly. And usually those ideas still become patterns that I end up having and selling. So it's not like it doesn't have an outcome, but it I have to go into it, not without expectation.

SPEAKER_00

Because that's actually how you first made the patterns that started your business.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Doing that. You at that point that you were just getting started, you're like, I'm just playing with the yarn that I've got and the needles that I've got, and I think I want to make myself a sweater. And we we lost track of some of that or lose track of that as we get deeper and deeper into running the business.

SPEAKER_01

I think we do. And I get definitely got to the point in my business, which I am not, I don't do this anymore. I've gotten really strict about this, but I used to suffer through with yarn that I was committed to using, even if I did not like it one bit, and I would finish the design and I would promote it. And now I just refuse. I categorically refuse to knit with yarn I do not like. I just am not gonna do it ever again. Okay, and looking at my list of how to avoid, how to prevent, how to recover from, I heard this really good phrase recently that I think is really applicable here. We are not just required to function, we are allowed to exist. And if you think about that, like the functional part of us is the go hustle, produce, get things done. And the existing part is just being. We are allowed to be. And sometimes making space for being, uh not doing, uh is really, I think that's really important.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yeah, that's a really good one. Go ahead. I that to me is is very close to the white space idea, right? Because in white space you're just existing if you're if you're really truly giving yourself that permission to do to be in white space. So yeah, that's that's yeah, profound, honestly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, I also think, and this is where being a knitter is really helpful, uh, and just a maker in general, but I am finding that getting off the computer, getting off my phone, because Doom scrolling is a real thing, and it is so tempting when you want to stay informed and you want to stay involved. It's really tempting to constantly be trying to keep up to date and in the know with everything that's happening, but we are just not designed to take in that much terrible news constantly. It is so stressful and it just adds to every other stress we're already feeling. And so I have been really focused on things that are analog. Um it's so funny.

SPEAKER_00

I have a note, my avoid list is got the this is such a cliche right now, but it really does apply. It's touch grass, touch grass, which is what you're saying, you know. Yes, the analog, get off the phone.

SPEAKER_01

Doing things that are, you know, going for a walk, going out into the garden, doing things tangible, yeah, tangible things that are the slow way that are not focused on speed and production. I think just even that word slow, slowing things down and stepping away from technology, that is helping me a lot. Have you been trying that too? And like, how's that working for you?

SPEAKER_00

Well, so it's really interesting because we've talked a lot about um both of us being introverts, but one of my um one of my things on my list is to connect with other people. And I have to shout out Julia here for a second because she is so good at recognizing when I must be giving off this spinning into burnout, because she'll be like, Have you gotten together with anyone lately or had coffee with anyone lately? Or, you know, and I'll just look at her like, What? What is that? What are you talking about? You know, yeah, and then it if my answer is usually no, and she's like, let's let's go have a coffee date, you know, and where we talk, we just go and we do something that's not work related, but it's so true, even for an introvert, to connect with someone else um out in the world, even if it's just over lunch, can be such a regrounding um point, you know, when you are ex when you are teetering towards burnout.

SPEAKER_01

That's such a great idea. I think we really forget how important that connection is. Even for extroverts, not that I would know, because I am the epitome of an introvert, but I think even for extroverts, it can be easy to feel like what we're doing online is social.

SPEAKER_00

Ah, yes.

SPEAKER_01

Right. And it's for me, it takes a similar amount of energy to do all the online socializing that I do in my business, but there is something to be said for that lunch with in person with a friend that you can just be yourself with.

SPEAKER_00

Um, another big one for me that I've come to realize it took me so long to figure this out, which is kind of hilarious. I need to change my scenery slash environment slash atmosphere. Yes. And so that for me, that has over the years been things like literally changing the office I work in. Like it's at the store and it's this new little spot, and then it's at the store, but it's over here. And then now I've got a bedroom available in the house, it's gonna be at our house and it's looking out the window. And then then after a while, it's like nope, everything needs to shift and it's all gotta do whatever. And that can even mean, okay, let's go, you know, rent an Airbnb. Well, Jason, my husband, and I have the incredible flexibility to be able to work from kind of wherever. And so that's our new change of scenery for a week. And that has done so much to give me a brain reset um over the last several years. That and it just took me a really long time. Actually, it was until I moved my desk into this current configuration when I was, you know, basically stalling doing any work, and I was like, let's move all the furniture. And that I realized, oh, this is a thing I'm doing to avoid burnout. I'm giving myself like a whole refresh of my operating system.

SPEAKER_01

I love that. I never thought about it the way that you're describing it, but you are so right, and I am the same way, which doesn't surprise me that this is something I would also relate to. Because one of the things you and I do is we try once a year to go somewhere together, like a cabin.

SPEAKER_00

We're gonna not be able to use the present tense of that verb pretty soon if we don't get it done.

SPEAKER_01

I know we need to get on it. Um, it's we're about due for our our annual getaway, but uh, you know, like in the mountains or at the coast or something, we pick a good spot. And then um the last one, I got a flat tire. That's why like right. But we also did some macrame, and you know, we yeah, and we just sort of wear sweats and don't put on any makeup for the whole time, eat a ton of snacks, and then just talk. We just talk and some brainstorming and just exist. It's really, really nice. And I I think the same thing um about that change of scenery. I mean, you know, I just recently rearranged my office and I painted it a warmer, cozier color because I was feeling like the sort of prison gray I had was maybe not good for my creativity. So yeah, I think some of that um refreshing our surroundings for me. I don't necessarily always rearrange things because my house is it was built in the 1940s. It's like a little mid-century modern cube, you know, so there's not as many places to put things or rearrange, but I will start going through closets and drawers and like organizing things and getting rid of things, which I really like to do.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, me too.

SPEAKER_01

You like I was like, some people are probably like, yes, some people are probably like, ooh, that sounds like work. But for me, it's like I'll put on some music or I'll put on a podcast or something or some you know terrible true crime documentary, and I'll just have that going. And I'm just delightfully going through toasts and organizing things, and it feels so good. And then when I'm finished, I'm like, oh, what a sense of completion. And yes, it's a very way to kind of get a reset. That is funny. I love that we're both that way. That's great.

SPEAKER_00

Um I mean, even for me, I I am getting better at recognizing like the very smaller feelings of, you know, not so not full on burnout, but just like I might be stalled out on a project or a certain thing that I need to do and am gonna pick myself up with my computer and whatever I need and just go to a coffee shop in town where I'm by myself still. I'm not going to my office at the store. I'm not in my office at home, but it's just a place where it's a complete change of scenery and it's just me and my work materials. And that just is a little reset.

SPEAKER_01

And you know, there's actually data to support that. That when we change our environment, we kind of I'm trying to think of like the right word here, but it's trick our brain? Yeah, we trick our brain into thinking new thoughts because it's really easy to have a thought loop where we're sort of recycling the same thoughts. And when we change our environment, especially leaving the home office or the store office, not just rearranging it, but actually going somewhere else.

SPEAKER_00

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01

It does, you know, you have different sounds and different smells and different people, and your senses are engaged a little more than they would be in a familiar environment. So you're more likely to not only think new thoughts and kind of have a fresh perspective, but it also slows time down.

SPEAKER_00

Oh.

SPEAKER_01

So when we're having a new or novel experience, time slows down. So when we learn a new thing, that's how we can slow time down when we go and and we're in an unfamiliar location. That can help slow time down. So there's a lot of really interesting research about this that I really love.

SPEAKER_00

That is fascinating. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So that working from a coffee shop as a writer, I definitely have to get out of my usual. Um, and it's funny, I was just talking to another writer and book coach yesterday about this exact topic. And she was telling me that when you write by hand, you know, versus typing, that engages different parts of our thinking and our emotions than because I was talking about uh writing fiction and like how that is just taxing my brain in a way that all the rest of my work doesn't do, and she's like, try writing it by hand because that does engage your senses differently and your brain your brain differently, and it actually will help you tap into different things.

SPEAKER_00

So fascinating.

SPEAKER_01

All of these like slow it down, change the way you do things, change your environment. I think that's all really, really important. So, what do you think of things like dopamine dressing and dopamine decorating? Have you heard those trends?

SPEAKER_00

Zero. Tell me.

SPEAKER_01

You haven't heard of them? No, girl, I live under a rock. Every time I like ask you about an Instagram trend, you're like, what is that? I just assumed everyone knows about this. Okay, so I am not an expert in either one of these categories, but my understanding of dopamine dressing and decorating are that they are dressing or decorating for absolute delight and joy. It is like wearing the fun colors, wearing all the bracelets you want to wear, doing, you know, wearing the big fun hairstyle or getting the crazy glasses, or kind of maybe like I wonder if Iris Apfel legendary influence, you know, fashionista influencer. I wonder if she was sort of the initial inspiration for this idea because she really embodied that. And I remember her watching a documentary about her, and she talked about how, you know, more is more, you know, like always add more and then right. Um and mine, I'm such a minimalist that mine is always like less is better, you know, less is more kind of thing. But and then like for the dopamine decorating, it's like not everything has to be beige, not everything has to be. I think the the younger folks call it sad beige, you know, not everything has to be like that. Like you can have color and you know, you can make things fun. You don't have to only make decisions based on resale value. You can decide how you want to live in your home. And I kind of feel like that's hard for our generation to do. Yeah, yeah, right. We were not raised to be that way, but I wonder I I would not maximizing, you know, like maxing every yeah, color maxing, yeah, style maxing, all the maxing. Uh, I'm just curious, like I don't know if that helps or doesn't help because I don't abide by that. Oh, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00

Maybe we need to conduct an experiment and try some dopamine dressing for the next seven days and see what we can report back with our results. Um, that's very intriguing. I'm thinking right now of my entire wardrobe and like, yeah, there's no dopamine there.

SPEAKER_01

I know. Same.

SPEAKER_00

I have a very I mean maybe a couple sweaters. As lately I've been contemplating making more black sweaters so that they're wearable with everything. That's probably the opposite of dopamine dressing.

SPEAKER_01

I think the for me, the I think sometimes with my shoes I get kind of great shoes. So maybe that's where I do it. I'm wearing right now some glasses that are like a I dig 'em red and kind of fun. I mean, they've got readers in them, so how fun can they be? But uh yeah, so maybe there's maybe I I dabble a little bit, but I'm pretty conservative in my taste, like very classic taste. But you know what, maybe what I'm gonna do is I might knit a sweater. I mean, I do love a yellow sweater, and for me, that is I have been a yellow sweater person for 15, 20 years. And so maybe that's maybe that's something, but I also really love coral. And so maybe I just need to do a little dopamine dressing with my next sweater. I will report back. What is your thought?

SPEAKER_00

You look like you have a well my my thought right now is looking at you is that your background in your office in its current and redone place is way more dopamine decor than previously, and I love it. That's true. I can, you know, you've got a slightly blurred background, and I can still pick up there's color and there's pops, and it is warm. And so I think maybe even you've started. You've started and you just maybe didn't even realize.

SPEAKER_01

You know what? You are so right. Well, what here's what's really funny about this all of this colorful art on the wall, almost all of it is from my favorite, favorite artists in Australia. They don't know me, but I'm their biggest fan. Um, and they're called Inelux because it's a couple I-N-A-L-U-X-E. I hope they're still around, but it's been a couple years since I bought from them. But most of this art I have had sitting in tubes for at least five years.

SPEAKER_00

Got it up on the walls now.

SPEAKER_01

And once my husband helped me, like he did the painting, bless his heart, when I was in Ireland with that knitting tour. And then once I then I went and bought all the frames, and then he hung everything for me. And now I have all of this really fun, punchy, colorful art from this art couple that I love.

SPEAKER_00

So great.

SPEAKER_01

And it really is. I'm almost and it's got meaning.

SPEAKER_00

It's got meaning to you.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Maybe I'm doing it and I didn't even know.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. And that this is your workspace. So you're starting in the place that's gonna have the most impact on your daily life. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So I think this is the I think this really the takeaway here is you know, the white space and slowing things down and getting offline a little bit more. Taking it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, like maybe if if you've been struggling with this, it's time to stop and think about identifying your triggers and the things that your signals that it's impending instead of just waiting for it to just full-blown take you out like a Mac truck. And if you can start to find what those behaviors are that manifest when you are coming up on burnout, then maybe you can head it off.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. I love that. I love that. So that's great. What are we looking at for next week? All right.

SPEAKER_00

Buckle up. Next week, okay, I've got two adult children heading out into the workplace. And it's a very different picture for them than it was for us. And so, speaking of back in the 90s, I want to talk about our work history. I want to talk about first jobs, weird jobs, nightmare jobs, like anything that we've got. All of it's come together to form who we are today. So let's dig it up.

SPEAKER_01

Uh, be careful what you wish for. I have some wild.

SPEAKER_00

I do already know that you drove a van at a too young of an age full of children.

SPEAKER_01

I did. Well, it was only a few children, but yes, I did for my for babysitting. Yes, I did. Um, oh my gosh. Okay. Well, that's gonna be a really fun one. And we will look forward to that for next week. So, all about our past job histories as far back as our early babysitting years. And um, but for this week, you guys, if you're listening and you're feeling kind of burned out or you feel it coming on, uh, just remember.

SPEAKER_00

We tried to tell you.

SPEAKER_01

We sure did. All right, we'll see you next week. Bye.