The Good, The Bad & The Ugly of Pattern Support Etiquette

Got a problem with a pattern? Can't find your download? Want help from a designer or your local yarn store? In this not-at-all-grouchy episode, Marie & Sarah unpack their opinions on pattern support protocol. 

Learn more about Sarah here: www.knotanotherhat.com

Learn more about Marie here: www.oliveknits.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome to We Tried to Tell You, a podcast full of unsolicited opinions about life, fiber, and everything in between. I am Sarah Keller and I am Marie Green. And today we're going to talk about something that's so prominent in our industry, something everybody runs into at one point or another. We're talking about pattern support, which is something I don't think I've heard really many people talk about.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Yeah, I don't think I've ever really encountered an explicit conversation about that either, honestly.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Right? I feel like it's something that we just have some assumptions about or a lot of assumptions, I think. A lot of assumptions, yes. And I think we just kind of a lot of times go with our gut on that and don't necessarily think about that. There maybe is an order of operations to how this should go. So that's what I want to speak. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, great. I like it. I like it. Because this is our 26th episode, by the way. Holy smokes. I know. And we surpassed 5,000 downloads. Thank you again to everybody listening and downloading.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Yeah, thank you, everybody.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

We're so grateful for that. So a lot of you've probably heard us talking all the way along here, but if you're just showing up now and this is your first episode, I have been knitting all my life since I was about 10 and in business for just shy of 15 years in the knitting industry. And Sarah, give us your little quick.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

I have not been knitting all my life, but I've been knitting a lot of my adult life and have had a local yarn store for 21 years here in Hood River, Oregon.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

The fact that your yarn store is old enough to drink is just so fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

That is funny.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Right? It's so great. Um, anyway, so we come with a lot of our own personal experience, but also the professional experience of being in an industry and working with knitters and being on the front lines of pattern support. And as a knitwear designer, I obviously see a lot of that from customers. And I think I want to talk not just about the pattern support that you and I encounter, but I also want to touch on, and I'm saying it now in case I forget because um because during that buzz brain. And you know, maybe a little bit of, you know, look, a squirrel happening around here. Uh, but I also want to talk about free patterns and my my like hot take on that. But part of what you pay for, you know, when you buy a pattern is the idea that if there's a problem, you can get support. I think there's not a standard on that. Yeah, there because there's not a standard even on how patterns should be written or what is, you know, what goes into it, or any of that. So there's a lot of variation here. And I want to say that up front because I can't generalize how this goes for everybody, but I'm gonna give some of what I think are the best practices, and Sarah's gonna give some.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

Yeah, that's that's what we all we can do, right? Because this whole industry is famous for a lack of standardization across the board.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

So exactly. Yeah, exactly. So this is not you know, speaking for every designer or every yarn store, but I think that we can give a pretty good rundown of you know what best practices are. And so where do we start? Yeah, wow my gosh, where do I start? Uh so I'm gonna start with talking about here's the overview of when you get a pattern, your responsibility is the first starting point on your pattern journey. You know, there is an expectation that when you buy a pattern, you're gonna come to that with the skills you need to make it. And that's your responsibility as a knitter. If I were to buy someone's pattern, it's my responsibility to have an have the skills and have the know-how to read the pattern, to understand the terminology, and to have at least the level of skill to understand what they're asking me to do. Because it's not a pattern's job to teach me how to knit unless that is the pattern. Unless it's like learn how to knit. Exactly. Otherwise, you know, we start with our own personal responsibility that we're coming to a pattern with our own skills, and that's our job as makers, is to educate ourselves and to learn. And I would offer that we shouldn't expect a pattern that you paid, you know, $10, $12 for to teach you everything about knitting.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

No, to be a class in any specific instruction. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

There are classes out there, and and there are books, and there are so many cool ways that you can educate yourself and learn techniques and and all of those things. And trial and error is a great teacher. And so I think so very go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

Just that the um the pattern itself um might have some things that are new to you. So we're not saying you can't take on something that is gonna broaden your skill set, but you do it with the understanding that you might have to do a little outside research to achieve these new skills if it's not going, if it's not coming to you easily just by working through the pattern.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

Exactly. And that's that's the starting point because there are times that I will get an email from someone, and you probably see this in your store too, Sarah, from someone who starts a pattern and they just don't understand the construction.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

They just don't understand how, you know, they've never knit that type of thing before. And they want you to explain beyond the pattern how this whole thing works. Do you have that happen for that?

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Yeah, well, and it's really tricky because it's not just that somebody asking to explain how it works, because maybe I will look at it and be like, well, it's very self-explanatory. It's asking the as it's asking the person that you're reaching out to to get inside your head and explain it to you in a way that is your learning style or that you would understand. Like it's not everybody is different. You know, you can you have to answer every question differently, depending on who's asking it. And I don't think people often think about that when they're like, I don't understand how to do what it's saying on you know, page two. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

Well, and you know, that really lends itself to the other little crucial detail here is so often someone will email and say, I'm knitting this pattern and I don't understand this page, or my stitch count doesn't match here, but they don't tell me what size they're making. Sometimes they don't even tell me what pattern it is.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

What pattern it is?

SPEAKER_00 7:00

I don't know what pattern it is, I don't know what size they're making. Um, like, or they're like, I I bought this pattern and it's not in my library. Okay, where did you buy it? Did you buy it on Ravelry? Ravelry has their own tool for finding a pattern you bought there. That's not a me problem. That's a Ravelry or a you problem because it's unfortunately set up in a way that you can buy a pattern without being logged in. So it doesn't go into your library. And then what do people do? They email me. Well, I didn't, you know, or they bought it in a yarn store and someone at the LYS typed their email address wrong. But then they come to me and I'm like, this is not how, you know, this is not how this works. And I'm not saying I'm not happy to help because I am, but there's just not enough of us to go around. There's not enough of me to go around to to help every single person who entered their email address wrong or forgot where they bought something, or you know, because a lot of that is just doing a little bit of your own investigative work and maybe going back to the place you bought it from versus expecting someone else to jump in and save you, especially when those tools already exist. And I think that's part of it. The answers in most cases are already there.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

They are, yeah. And I think our our particular industry for somehow has developed this culture where there is that expectation that you can get help um on anything at any time, depend like from a store, from a designer, from whatever. Um, it's a very unique thing. It's not like you don't find this across all industries of making or even of um retail. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

You know, you are not wrong. I get messages on Christmas, on any holiday you can think of, but Christmas feels like the one that's sort of a little bit more great. Like most people don't expect a business to be helping them when I, you know, giving them personalized help on Christmas usually. I often get emails on Christmas, and it will be someone who is just not wanting to do their own work to understand what's going on or to solve their own query, and they expect me to stop everything in the middle of a major holiday and explain to them how to adjust their needle size to get gauge. Like that's not appropriate. It's just not right.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

I mean, I guess you can do it, but you know, if you don't get a response, you know, maybe there's a reason. Um, so and I know, oh gosh, I know this probably is coming across sounding kind of cranky, but you can imagine being in business for as long as Sarah and I both have. We've seen a lot. And most knitters, I do want to say this most knitters are so gracious and respectful and fantastic at how they do this. Yes, it is it is the majority that are doing it right and are great about how they handle it. And it's the very few, but they are the noisy ones, the very few that are just not sure how to approach it. And those are the ones that really stick in your mind.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

And this is so this is kind of like a primer that you know you can listen to us talk about this and think which which category do I fit into? And if you find yourself fitting into maybe um some of these practices that aren't as helpful as others, then you thought this is your chance to reevaluate how you go about asking for help when you need it.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Absolutely. So, so kind of going back to the order of operations. Yes, I was trying to think of a good analogy for this just to kind of help frame the context. So if you're knitting along and all of a sudden your stitch counts don't match up, sending an email directly to the designer is a little bit like seeing a stray cat in your backyard and calling 911. It's a little bit, it's like jumping the gun a little bit, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Well, you're jumping over like multiple layers of intervention. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

Multiple layers of intervention. And so I would say the very first thing when you're starting to knit is either make sure you have the skills that you need to work on the project or the willingness to use the internet, look on YouTube, even extend your skill set by taking the classes and learning. Um, so that willingness needs to already be there because we are responsible for our own skills. And this is a hobby, you know. Most of us are coming, not for you and I, but for our customers. This is a supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be fun. And part of having a hobby is, you know, working on your skills and getting new tools in your toolbox. So the very first thing is coming to the pattern with that. The second thing is to read through and see what's already there. I cannot tell you how many times I've gotten an email saying, I just got this pattern and I just cast on and I don't see where it says to join in the round. And I'm like, well, it's on row eight. So if you you're doing some shaping at first. And so if you just kept reading, you would get to hit it. Yeah. Um, I got an email two or three weeks ago from someone who said, You've provided stitch counts throughout this whole pattern, and yet there's no stitch count at the sleeve divide. And I thought, really? Wow, that's like the most important stitch count. And I go look and I said, Well, I in my version, which hasn't changed from your version, uh, there's a stitch count on the bottom of page seven and the divide for sleeves on page eight. And she said, Oh, well, I just didn't think to look there. I was like, I had someone else email me because they printed out the pattern and said the last two pages of the pattern are missing. And it turns out her printer was out of paper.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Uh-huh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

So these are not things you email a designer about, you guys.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

Right. Right. We've had people come in and for help, you know, in the same type of thing. And they're like, there's just something wrong. It's so weird. And I'm like, well, your pages jump from pages page four to page six. Do we have a page five somewhere? You know, and they're like, What? No, I printed everything. I'm like, except page five, it looks like, or it went missing or something. But check the page numbers.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Right. Check the page numbers. Like just and check the PDF. Because I said, I my PDF has all the pages. And she went back and looked and said, Oh, so does mine. I guess my printer was out of paper. But it's so weird to me that we would think to email a designer before we would do a little bit of our own troubleshooting, right? Just to check those basic things. So the first step of intervention and a need for pattern support is to make sure you're reading the pattern. And then also, if you're reading ahead and something looks confusing that you don't understand yet, don't send an email right then because it's probably gonna make sense when you get there.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

So many times it might be one of the most repeated things we say is this will make sense when you're in this moment. Like exactly. I can see why you're confused now, but try not to don't borrow worry. Isn't that what they say? Like, don't borrow worry with like by worrying about what's yet to come. Yeah. It's okay to try to look ahead and make sure things look okay, but wait till that moment to see if it still seems crazy to you and you just can't wrap your brain around it. Don't don't ask about something three pages down the road when you haven't arrived at it yet.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

Exactly. Exactly. I love the idea of reading through the pattern first, but not because you're gonna preemptively start asking questions. Rather, it gives you the lay of the land. It's like you're making a recipe. Have you ever been cooking and you're making something for dinner and it's time sensitive and you're like, okay, this should take me 45 minutes. Uh-huh. And you get to the spot where it says refrigerate for two hours and you're like, marinate for three hours. Yeah, exactly. I didn't look ahead, so I didn't realize that was coming. And so I didn't plan for that. Yes. That's why we look ahead. I mean, obviously knitting isn't quite like that, but you know, if you just it's just like, I don't know, it's the same concept as the cards.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

It's the same concept.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

So I think it's important to look ahead, but hold your questions because it's probably going to make sense when you get there. The other thing I see people do is they will look ahead and start calculating numbers and say, these numbers don't add up. And I said, that's because if you're doing it on your needles, it will work. But the way that you're counting it, you're actually counting one section twice. You don't realize you're doing it, but these numbers aren't designed to be added together. These numbers are getting you across the row, taking some stitches off, getting you across the next row, taking some other stitches off. But it's not, it's just, it's hard to explain unless you're doing it.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

But unless you're in the moment.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

But when you're in the moment, it works on your needles. And it's really frustrating to get an email with that question because I know they didn't even try it yet. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Like that's that's our responsibility as makers to at least give it our best shot. The second step, especially if something looks like before the second step is if it looks confusing, if you're you seem, you know, like your stitches aren't lining up or something seems wrong, sleep on it at least. Because almost all the time, the next day with fresh eyes, you're like, oh, now I know what's going on. So often I get a panic email from a knitter saying, This isn't working, this is wrong. And then 12 hours later I get a follow-up that says, never mind, I was tired. I did, I'm sorry. So just save yourself the trouble. And it's way faster to be able to problem solve that yourself.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

Oh, and sometimes you just literally your eyes are not reading a line of text. I mean, we have all done that. You look and you look and you look and you look and it doesn't make sense. And then you come back in the morning and you look, and there is magically a whole line of text in between where you were looking last night. And it's just sometimes your brain is blocking something and you just need to uh clear out the cobwebs. It happens to all of us.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

It really does. And this is yeah, this is an everyone thing we can all relate to this. So that's that's phase one is do do your own due diligence. The next step would be if you have knitting friends, if you're part of a knitting group, it's great to have another set of eyes on it. Yeah. From just a friend, just someone who you knit with, if you have that. I realize not everybody does. But if you do, often I will see people, you know, having a struggle with something and they say, Oh, I asked my friend at knit night, and she pointed out what I was missing. And it was just an easy thing to overcome. So I think that's a great next step if you have that available.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

Even I think the next step would be having your friend read the part you're struggling with out loud to you. Because a lot of times that's all people need when they come for help. And I I'll be like, Okay, so you did this, you um, you knitted 30, and then you um slipped the next 10, and they're like, Wait, what? What'd you say? Did you slip the next 10? And like, oh, I somehow I missed you know, it's just hearing it in a different context often is the only thing you need. I like that a lot.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

And maybe even if you don't have a friend, try reading it out loud to yourself, maybe. Yeah, see if you're missing something. That's interesting. Yeah, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

You can voice memo it on your phone even and play it back for yourself.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

So there you go. Yeah, there you go. I see, look at all these great tips we're giving people. Um, okay, let's see here. So the next step is I want to talk about how a local yarn store fits into pattern support. In from here's my perspective, and then Sarah, I want to hear your perspective. My perspective is if you uh bought the pattern through the yarn store, I do expect because the yarn store is taking some of the money of the pattern, I expect you to start with them. If especially if your pattern isn't in your downloads. That's something that you should ask the tech store about because they process that for you. Right. Absolutely. And if the store is in your local area, it's so easy for you to walk in and say, I bought this here, especially if you bought the yarn there. I will say when I worked at a yarn store and we had people come in with like a magazine from the 80s and say, uh, can you help me make this as a sweater? And it's not even a pattern, it's just an ad for, you know, cigarettes or something from the 80s. And you're like, this is, you know, Marlboro Cowboys wearing a great sweater, and can I, you know, I I want one like this, or something that has been in their storage for a long time, or someone has gifted it to them, or they inherited it from someone who's departed and they are like, I want to keep knitting this, but I don't really know where I'm going with it. I, you know, the the yarn is not from the store. They didn't make a purchase at the store and have never been a customer at the store ever. Right. Right. And may never again, because this is the one time they're working on a project. I feel like we should just think about how we're supporting small businesses when we do that. But but as a designer, I would expect if you buy the pattern through the store that they are going to take some responsibility of assisting you as their customer. That would be my take. I don't know, Sarah. What do you think on that?

SPEAKER_01 20:01

No, I well, we would never help anybody ever. That's basically how it goes. Um never help anybody ever. I was like, what? No, no, I 100% agree. And I think that um we do have we do have a a barrier, maybe a boundary, I should say, that we've set. And every store is different. So, of course, if you're listening, you want to make sure that you're you take what I say as my personal um policy and opinion for my store, and other stores are gonna have some different ideas about this. But in general, you can always expect that you can come into my store and get um help with quick fixes, small things. Uh, you can sit at the table and work on your project, and then if you suddenly drop a stitch, we'll come and help you grab it back. Things like that, we will always help you. In fact, we will do that whether you bought the yarn or pattern there or not. But especially if if we sold you the pattern and or the yarn. If you need more comprehensive help, like more than 15 minutes of one-on-one instruction, then that's a case where we would ask you to sign up for a private lesson. And that would be a case where, like Marie was saying earlier, that um when you are you're bringing your skills to the table when you decide to make a pattern, that maybe you decided to make a pattern that was a little outside your skill set. So you're gonna need to invest a little bit in your skills to get going on that. And that would be like through a private lesson with one of our instructors. Because we can't have um just someone sitting around all day long that offers one-on-one help. So when we when you come in and we you want a quick fix or you want little bits of ongoing help while you sit at the table, that's totally doable with the person who is staffing the store and ringing people up, et cetera. And that's very realistic. But anything more comprehensive, be prepared to take the, like you said, take your the responsibility upon yourself to say, could I get a little private lesson on this? or could I Schedule some time with an instructor, this seems like it's maybe more than I realized.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

And I think it's showing respect for the small business. It's showing respect for other people's time because time is not infinite. Infinite. Yeah, time's not infinite. We don't have the freedom to just all day long offer free help. And there have been times, and I think we talked about this a little bit last week, there have been times where by the time I get the payment for the pattern, I maybe have received $6. And not all of that goes in my pocket, by the way. I also have overhead and I have costs. So I might actually get $2 of that. And then when someone's emailing me back and forth, back and forth about a problem that is their miscounting, their misunderstanding, it's not a problem in the pattern. It's something that they're just struggling with in their knitting. Then I am effectively paying them to knit this pattern. My time costs money. And that is, you know, it's something to consider. So I think it's same in a store. Yeah, it's perfectly reasonable to expect that if you come into a store asking for assistance, which I think is a fine place to start, but also when you go in there, no, okay, they might be really busy right now. They might have a class in session, they may not be able to help me write this minute, and also have a willingness if this is going to require more than a couple minutes of help, be ready to invest in a one-on-one session. I know the shop that I worked at, they were much stricter. It was like five minutes of help. I wasn't allowed to sit down to offer the help. I had to be standing. It was pretty severe. Yeah. And uh if it went beyond five minutes, they would have to pay for a one-on-one. Or I think we had something called Stitch Doctor, where you'd pay for, I don't know, $10 to sit for an hour in a little group setting and then she'd go around and help everybody. So there are different options.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

But I think it's I think we should go into it expecting that you're asking someone to stop what they're doing to help. So you have to be willing to consider their schedule and their availability and their time.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. We have had people be really upset that we couldn't drop everything to help them. You know, when there was a line of people waiting to check out, et cetera, for free help, they were waiting. And, you know, Jill is really great because she's the one who's there most weekdays. And she's always like, I can I'd be happy to help you, just let me ring these people up first, you know. And still some people get, you know, mad and they leave. So it's a weird little conundrum because you wouldn't like buy a chainsaw and then just go park yourself at the hardware store and expect them to teach you how to use it.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

And so it's part of our culture, and that's great, but you just have to remember that you you can't just run amuck with it. You can't just, you know, run amuck.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

All the knitters are running amuck. Uh so the the final step, I would say, is then reaching out to the designer. And I put that at the end because 95% of the questions that come to me do not belong in my inbox.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

They are questions that I've already answered in the pattern. The information's already there. It might be a mistake on your own needles. I can't, I'm not there in person. I can't see your work. So I can point out to you where you've gone astray. But if you email me to say everything lines up except this one section and I don't have enough enough stitches or I have too many stitches, I'm not able to see your knitting, but I can tell you the pattern's correct. So emailing me that issue, all I can do is have you go back and look at your own work and just confirm that the pattern's correct. And that is a use of my time when people email me. I'm very gracious and I'm as helpful as I possibly can be. I will say when you are kind and respectful and you get a lot more help. Oh my gosh, right? When you are rude and entitled, you probably, I'm not gonna go the extra mile and put everything aside so I can devote all my time to someone who's being really rude. It's most people are pretty lovely.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

I've got this question. And then you're just like, Well, no, don't don't apologize. Let's get you figured out, you know? It's just exactly the whole attitude towards the or towards helping. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

Oh, I have so much fun giving people all the extra support I can when they are lovely. It's like I want to reward them for being so wonderful. You know what I mean? I'm just like so grateful to get a kind person in my inbox. And then you'll get a stinker. And you're like, Yeah, you know, oh, okay. It doesn't sit the same. I think the rule of thumb is if you're emailing a designer, number one, don't email a designer to ask them to help you with some other designer's work. It's just that's it's happened to me a couple of times, which is so.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

Oh my gosh, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 26:59

Um I know. I think it's because I answer emails and some maybe don't. And so they just felt like this person's not responding to me. Will you help me? Uh, the second thing is, you know, obviously be kind and gracious and respectful of someone's time. You know, go through all those steps of at least trying to check your own work, read the pattern, resolve your own stuff first. And then when you send an email, you know, keep an eye. I have an autoresponder that says Monday through Thursday are my desk hours where I am answering emails. And it tells you immediately that I will not respond between Friday and Sunday because those are other work hours. I don't do customer support during those hours. I will come in Monday morning and have like 15 emails from one person because they were mad that I didn't immediately respond when they sent the first email on Friday when I'm not in my admin box. So be understanding that maybe someone can't help you the second you send the email and don't expect an immediate response on a holiday, things like that. And also use the channels that the designer has set up for communication. I don't do pattern support via Facebook Messenger.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Out at a vineyard with my family or with my husband, and someone will be randomly sending me Facebook messages about a pattern. I'm not in front of my computer. This isn't my work hours. Like, no, I'm not gonna, you know, so send it to my email. That's where I help you.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Um and they I don't know, I don't think a lot of people understand how easy it is to lose messages in social media apps. Impossible. They get rearranged, they get shown to us in whatever order Facebook thinks is important. Sometimes they're hidden in inboxes, sometimes they're hidden because the Facebook thinks they're spam. I mean, it's it is really, really problematic. And so, yes, that's a that's a big one, also is go through the channels that we've set up, which is like, you know, email or for us, we also have a contact form or a chat box on the front end of our website. Um, yeah, that's a big one.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

The patterns have the email in there and they say, you know, this is where to contact me. Uh, you know, don't email asking for a designer to modify the pattern for you. I feel like that's pretty disrespectful because if you think about, again, the let's say, you know, 40 to 80 hours of knitting that went into it, 20 hours of design time, tech editing time, testing time, it is an inordinate amount of time that's gone into the design of that pattern. And to have someone buy it and say, well, I don't like it in the round. I wanted a cardigan and I want to change the sleeve length. How would I do that? You know, the best way is to find a different pattern that is set up the way that you want it. Or to take enough classes and practice enough that you have the skills to make those changes yourself. I'm a big fan of being the boss of your knitting, but don't expect to that's like asking someone to custom, like do custom work for you for free and basically write a new pattern for you. That's just not reasonable. I'm surprised that people think it's reasonable, but I think it's because they don't realize how much work that is.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

It's not just a couple of clicks and I can write, you know, a little tweak here and a tweak there and you're good to go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

There are people who will send an email about a legitimate issue that just got missed that somehow we did not see in all of the uh editing and testing. And and sometimes it's a pattern that's been out. Rarely does this happen, I will say. If it's a pattern that's been out for 10 years, it is unlikely that there's a major problem in it.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Sometimes some weird thing can get through. And so if that's the case, of course I want to know and I want to correct it and get that pattern updated. So I'm not saying don't ever reach out. I'm not trying to put the fear of God into you. I just am hoping to set a little bit more of a realistic expectation for what that process should look like and what our expectations are. Like me as a designer, Sarah as a yarn store owner, kind of the expectations we come into it with. Because if you can imagine having hundreds or thousands of customers, if every customer comes to us every time their stitch count doesn't match or every time they're confused, we would not be able to run a business. It's not sustainable.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:17

So we have to be able to. No. So we have to be able to find a way to help people. And this is why I put so much into my patterns. It's why they're so comprehensive because I want to try and get ahead of questions before they happen. I want to give the knitter all the tools they possibly need. There might be something that you still don't know or need, but I certainly try and make it as robust as possible. And if there's something else that you need to know how to do, the internet is a great resource for that. If you've done all those steps and you're like, I still think that there's a problem here, definitely send the email. I'm happy to take a look at that. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

Yeah.

unknown 31:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

Uh yeah. We I just had an email from somebody um like two weeks ago knitting a pattern that's been out forever and it's been knit many, many times. Like there's plenty of projects on Ravelry, and the chart was missing the key for the plain knit stitch and the plain pearl stitch. And she's like, I I I've looked everywhere, but I'm pretty sure there, and I'm assuming they this is knit and this is pearl, but there doesn't actually say in the key. And I was like, Oh my goodness, you are so right. How did we miss that? How did all of our levels of tech get any everything? I'll get that fixed right away. And thank you so much for letting me know. And so that was someone, you know, she said, I looked through all the pages, et cetera. And she, you know, it was really helpful. So there are times that we do want to hear from you about things because sometimes we're still humans, mistakes can still make it through.

SPEAKER_00 32:49

Absolutely. Absolutely. I think it really helps too when you send that email or when you reach out to say, I just want you to know, like this is the size I'm knitting, this is the pattern, uh, you know, all of these various things. And I've already read through everything. So I just made sure that I'm not missing anything. I counted my stitches on my needles twice. I do think there's a problem. It helps me help you if I know kind of what interventions you've already tried. This makes me think of tech support. I know when people reach out and say there's a problem. And they're like, Did you turn it off and turn it on? Is it plugged in? I read this story from an IT guy who said that he had worked back and forth with five different people at this corporate office who all said this thing isn't working. He and all of them assured him it was plugged in. He drove two hours to go fix it and it was not plugged in. So this is something that affects every industry, I am sure, to some degree. They have a they have an acronym for that.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

What is it? In tech support. I think it's really funny. It's picnic, problem in chair, not in computer.

SPEAKER_00 33:58

Oh my gosh, that is so funny. Picnic, problem in chair, not in computer. Yeah, well, we've all been there. I mean, I've sent a customer support email myself, and then later went, oh my gosh, I am my own worst nightmare right now.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

We are all human. We understand it'll happen sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

It will, it will. And you know, but it helps if you do reach out to say, you know, here are the things I've already tried. Here's what size, here's what page, here's what pattern, you know, make sure that information's in there because it just saves everybody time. The other thing I wanted to talk about before we wrap this up is the idea of free patterns. Um, I think that is I'm gonna I have a hot take on this, and I'm curious to hear what you think, Sarah. But give me your high. I have heard I've heard people talk about how it's a free pattern, so you shouldn't expect any like, don't con don't reach out to me because the pattern's free. That's what it will say on the pattern listing on Ravelry. Like, this is free, so don't email me. Uh, I think personally there is a level of responsibility in putting a pattern out there for other people to make. You are asking people to use their time and resources to potentially make this thing that you designed. So I don't think you're off the hook just because it's free. I think that, you know, if you've put out a crummy free pattern that doesn't isn't edited, you know, those emails from people are how you're gonna find out that you're not putting out quality work. And so it's either a call to action to start tech editing and testing and designing a proper pattern uh and charging for it appropriately, or not to be doing it. I just don't think it's fair to put a pattern out there and say, well, it's free, so don't expect anything from me. That's my hot take. What do you think, Sarah?

SPEAKER_01 35:45

Well, I do not disagree with you. Um, this is one of the reasons in the store that we we generally really discourage people from making anything from a free pattern that's not one of the you know few reputable sources that we know well. We just tell them like you you need to lower your expectations. There may not be help, there may not be a schematic, there may not be gauge information. I mean, it's you just you basically you get what you pay for, and you'd be much better off getting a vetted, edited, paid for pattern. And I'm all of this to say occasionally I put out a free pattern, but usually it's more community-oriented, like the little planters or I can't even think of another scenario because it's very rare. Or like a drink cozy or something. But those are more like I want to do something fun to celebrate um a holiday with the community and send them a free pattern, but not something that I really am expecting a lot of people to grab on to. So I it's just as as this as a shop where we are gonna potentially have to help people, it's easier for us if they're not gonna knit from a free pattern because they just tend to be problematic.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

Right. And you offering a free pattern as a professional in the industry is different because you are available for help. You're not gonna say, Don't email me if you have a problem. Where some free patterns do say that. They say this is free, so don't reach out to me. And I just think that if you're putting it out there on the internet, getting emails from people is like getting feedback. And that's kind of part of putting stuff on the internet, is feedback is gonna happen, whether you like it or not. So that's kind of our overview. I feel like maybe this is a grouchy episode. I'm not trying to make it a grouchy episode. It feels like it might be because we're talking about some of the like worst case scenarios, but I do still think there's some value in sort of being on the same page, and we all kind of understand what the expectations are and just what the general etiquette is, because it is totally normal to not know and to have never thought of it that way.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

I think it's very possible that you just started knitting a few years ago, you reach out to a designer with a question because you're not sure, and you just think maybe they're just sitting home knitting and would be happy to answer the question. And it may not occur to you, you know, that's oh my gosh, if a thousand people send emails asking questions, how hard that would be.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

Right. Um, I think that that is it, that is the point of this episode for sure. And it it hope hope, you know, it might have come off a little bit grouchy, but it's helpful to talk about again in the interest of transparency, right? That's one of the things we want to do in this podcast is be open about stuff that a lot of people won't talk about uh in our industry. And this is one of the big ones, I think. Because behind closed doors, there's a lot of people talking about it.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

Right. Well, and a lot of people need the pattern support. The pattern support messages happen every day. So it's something that's ongoing. It will never not be a thing. But I think the more we can do to support ourselves as makers and just take some personal responsibility for the project adventure you're about to go on. You know, this is this is fun. We love knitting. And sometimes, and I think this is an important thing to keep in mind learning, making mistakes as you go, trying to figure things out. That is part of the fun of being a knitter and being a maker. And if you immediately have to stop working on your project to wait for someone to help you, you might be missing out on a great learning opportunity. It's just knitting. You know, it's not gonna blow up if you accidentally knit two together or drop a stitch. And most things in knitting are fixable, so and or fudgeable. You know, there's just you know, and worst case, you can pull it back or even pull it all the way out and start over. I learn so much from my own knitting mistakes. And so don't be afraid to make a mistake. I I feel like sometimes the pattern support emails are people trying to avoid making a mistake. And I would say you're better off giving it your best shot. Go with your gut, read the pattern. That's a really important thing. You are right. You have you want all the information you can. And then I want you to give it your best shot first because most likely you're gonna figure it out without someone else having to help. And if not, then that's where help comes in. But you will learn more by trying to figure it out on your own needles while you're hitting that crossroads. You'll learn more if you try and actually take the next step than if you pause, put it on hold, and you wait until someone else can show you what to do.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

Absolutely. I that's like I think the overall message of this whole thing is don't be afraid to make a mistake. It's how you're gonna learn. And it's so important.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

Absolutely. And again, you know, we're here for you if you do need our help. So we're not saying never reach out. Definitely, if you need our help, we are here. That's what we we do as professionals in the industry. We're just trying to give you all the tools because honestly, it is way faster to turn the next page of the pattern and realize the answer is there than to send an email and wait for a reply only to tell you to turn the page and it's there, right? So it just makes knitting more fun. Yes. For everybody. Absolutely everybody. And Sarah, what are we talking about next week?

SPEAKER_01 41:16

Okay. I want to uh I want to get trendy. Let's talk about trends. We'll talk about the trends we don't want to see anymore, the things we're over. Okay. And um, and I am specifically talking about knitwear um and knitting trends. And then things we see coming down the pike, maybe for fall. So um, yeah, I I'm ready to start thinking about sweater season. Hey, fun. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

Okay, that'll be a fun one. All right, folks. That'll be a really fun one. Okay, well, next time you need pattern support, friends, just remember.

SPEAKER_01 41:49

We tried to tell you.

SPEAKER_00 41:51

We did, we sure did. All right, see you next time. Bye.