Shades of Us: Confronting Colorism in the Black Community

This episode takes a hard look at colorism—one of the most persistent and uncomfortable issues within the Black community. Joined by DEI specialist Shareem Annan, who brings over 20 years of experience in diversity, equity, and inclusion work, the conversation digs into how skin tone has shaped identity, access, and perception both historically and today.

From beauty standards and media representation to workplace dynamics and personal relationships, we unpack the subtle—and not so subtle—ways colorism continues to show up in our lives. Shareem offers both professional insight and real-world perspective on how these biases are formed, reinforced, and, more importantly, how they can be challenged.

It’s an honest, necessary conversation about what it will take to confront colorism within our own community—and move toward something more unified, aware, and intentional.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:16

Welcome back to another episode of Stank Open Sessions. Here it's okay, I can do that again.

SPEAKER_02 0:23

No, just let it be.

SPEAKER_03 0:24

Welcome back to another episode of Stank Open Sessions. I'm your host, Kofi Anon. Here with my man.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

I'm Kofi A D, or Deuce, as they have called me now. Right, right, right. What's going on, man? I'm good. Um I'm still mad on Magic City, though.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

No, we we can letting that go.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

We're letting that go.

SPEAKER_03 0:43

No, I no, you letting it go. I'm a protest. I'm a protest.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

I'm gonna protest. We have moved. We marched for everything else. We have elevated. We marched for everything else.

SPEAKER_03 0:55

Elevated beyond Magic City. We are now only promoting positivity in the world.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

That was a black business in Atlanta that has been around for how many years?

SPEAKER_03 1:06

Yeah, you know what? They could celebrate it at Magic City.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

See, I didn't want to go that far. I just said celebrate the business at the basketball game. I know that may be a controversial take, but hey, that that is what it is. I'm telling you, when it's gonna do stadium.

SPEAKER_03 1:24

They made exactly the right decision to end that debauchery.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

You know what you should do? You should write to the Atlanta Hawks and say, I did not support your Magic City night. Please give me parents.

SPEAKER_03 1:37

No, there was actually, you know, there was actually, you know, I think you care more about this than I do. I do actually. It's funny. But there was actually like a petition going around, and like there was a there was people like told to like call in. You know, D1? I saw I I know he was like at least one of the celebrities. He was like, Yeah, no, you should call in, tell them to cut this off. So I think they actually got a lot of pushback, not just like on social media, but like there actually wasn't an effort, organized effort to to end that. And good for them. I'm telling you.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Decency one, debauchery, none. I'm telling you, DC is gonna do Fuegos next, but I I digress. We have a guest, though. We do have a guest. I have to step back because this is gonna be a wonderful introduction. So oh man, that's too much pressure. Crank it up.

SPEAKER_03 2:23

Alright, here we go. Here we go. Joining us today is my wonderful wife, partner of 24 five years. Somewhere in that ballpark. She'll be here. Give me the side eye. Um, but yes, today um joined by my wonderful wife, uh Shereem.

SPEAKER_04 2:53

Oh, it's 24 years.

SPEAKER_03 2:57

I got it right. Why was she looking at me funny? Y'all are almost according to the city. You said 24 to 25. It's 24. I can't win. Even when I'm right, I'm wrong. Um, but look, so we're having a conversation today about colorism um within the black community. And this issue affects women totally different from it does men. So it was very important that we brought in a uh a woman, but that's not just any woman. In addition to being my wife, she's also a DEI or belonging um and inclusion um expert in the field. Um, and doing it for for quite some time. So we're gonna get like some personal takes, we'll also maybe get some professional takes on on how this issue is affecting our our community.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

And yeah. Alright.

SPEAKER_03 3:47

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_04 3:49

Was that a good enough? It was all right. It was alright.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

All right, I gotta work on it. We gotta work on that and work on that. I'll work on that. The episode will be hashtag black love.

SPEAKER_03 3:57

Alright, so what what is colorism? How do you guys you know define it? And you know, let's let's lay the foundation for for our for our viewers here.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

I'm gonna let Shareem go because I got a definition I gotta bring up right quick. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_04 4:11

Yeah, I gotta put me on a spot.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna bring up my definition first. Oh, sorry. I mean you. I kind of did.

SPEAKER_03 4:22

Hey, you know what? A little quick sidebar here. So I'm scrolling through Instagram the other day, right? And there's this woman, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:36

Right, right. I don't know what that woman looked like. I don't need those. There's this there's this woman on there that that that like, yeah, okay. She she's on there for for her looks, right? Let me just say that. Anyway, so stream, you'll actually love this one. So I see I see one of our our old pastor liking it. I'm not even gonna say no names or nothing like that. It was hilarious, though. Yeah, so I was like, oh my god, what why are you liking this movie?

SPEAKER_04 5:07

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03 5:10

I bet he supported the Magic City movement. No, he supported Magic City Monday. But anyway, back back to back to live action.

SPEAKER_04 5:17

Well, Kofi probably got his definition up. Let me hear what you got, Kofi.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Uh, so my definition comes from actually a song that is very prominent in uh you know hip-hop culture. It was called Every Girl by Young Money. It was you know, it was a popular song back in the 2010s. The he got a clear throat. Lil Wayne verse opens up and says, he's a uh I like a long hair, thick red bone. And then there's some um explicit lyrics after that. I won't get into there, but that it kind of sums up uh a lot of like the hip-hop culture. I don't want to go into it like too narrow at first, but there's been an fetization, if that's if I'm pronouncing it right, of the different colors and hues of our culture. We know why it is, um, but I don't think we in this uh time period, I don't think we have really like looked at it in a sense of why why is it still prevalent. We've made movements of we made so much progress, excuse me, in so many areas, but this seems to be one that's just like why do we fetishize you know our lighter skin counterparts? And I I even see it even with the dark skin, like the like the super chocolate, you know. Now that's like like we fetishize the the the the different spectrum of the hues of our of our race. And I mean what is it? I mean beauty is beauty is universally accepted. I hope so. I think so. No, you don't think so? How does that ever been? You don't think so.

SPEAKER_03 7:04

I'm not saying that's not what it should be, but you beauty is beauty is always there's always standards of beauty that have always existed, and I don't think I think dark skin has never been like the com more commonly accepted standard But you don't know.

SPEAKER_04 7:18

I think it is more now why why Shereen?

SPEAKER_01 7:22

And welcome, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_04 7:24

Thank you, thank you. I think I think people embrace like you hear like Melanin Magic and things like that. Like people oh melanin popping, not melanin magic. See, you got me thinking about Magic City. Melanin popping and things like that. I think people are embracing it more now than I feel like when I grew up in the 80s, 90s. So a little bit more, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

So talk like as a woman, right? Talk to us about like the different I guess back when you were a teenager, your twenties and thirties and stuff like that. Talk to us, I guess, like with your first touch point, like color is like what was the first thing you remember about, oh my god, this is a thing.

SPEAKER_04 8:12

Probably elementary school?

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Really?

SPEAKER_04 8:18

Now personally, I don't feel like I was like impacted by it, probably like more indirectly, if that makes sense. I thought you were about to say I I didn't think I was that dark, so well, because I would say like the even like you know, young little puppy love when you're in elementary school in the playground, the the boys would seem to gravitate towards the the lights lighter skinned girls with long hair, like that kind of image. And if you were darker skinned, like you would be teased more so. That's kind of I think when I did not realize on what it was, obviously, back then, right? But you just it it was a definitely a divide that I saw at a young age, you know, that this was it was a it was a different than how even we you know we treated each other. I went to a predominantly I mean it was all all black elementary school. Now when I went to got into high school, I went to it was flipped. Um I do feel like I probably experienced it maybe without realizing what it was, without naming it, if that makes sense. Um especially in high school, um, I do feel like the the darker girls were treated a little different. Um and even even so much as hanging out with like um being invited to like parties and stuff. I remember like there were certain girls in our because there wasn't that many black kids in my high school. I went to a private school, but the lighter girls tended they were always invited to like the parties, and there was a group of us that weren't invited. I don't you know maybe that's a coincidence, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

But so even because it's funny, because I think as a woman you experience it based on like not in a romantic sense, but based on like who likes you, who doesn't like you, things like that. I think from like a male standpoint, the doctor you were, oh man, the jokes were the jokes were hilarious, but you couldn't laugh at the time. I mean, I was called uh All Baby. Uh I mean uh God, I got I'm trying to remember the names. Tar Baby. Tar Baby, All Baby. I heard that name before. Um I mean, what was it? The only difference between you and Midnight is 1159. I've never heard that one before. Yeah, yeah. I will think of more as we go through this episode. But I mean, there was a ton of, and I think like as you guys see it, I don't want to say romantic, but more of a like a who likes you. And Kofi, you tell me your experience too, you know, especially with coming here to DC and stuff and coming to America. Like, guys, it's just raw. It's just that you like, man, shut up, black ass. Like, it's it's just raw and unfiltered.

SPEAKER_03 11:05

I mean, so honestly, I I don't know if I experienced too much colorism directly. I mean, I'm dark, but I'm I don't know. I mean, I'm Oh, you're one of those people. I'm one shade lighter than you. I I know your title.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

I know your time.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

It was like, I don't know. I don't like what they say. They say that to me though.

SPEAKER_03 11:27

It's like no, no, no. But um, so no, I I don't know if I I I mean, yeah, I mean, I don't know if I experienced too much colorism uh personally. I I feel like, you know, you probably heard it from other people. I I definitely heard it. No, no, yeah, yeah. No, I definitely experienced it as far as like witnessing it. And I I might have experienced it, I guess, somewhat, but for me, I guess maybe that wasn't like the first thing they would, you know, you would you would talk about for me it was like my accent, you know. Like that was like the first thing to get teased about. And maybe somewhere down the line, you know, like my skin tone, but like that uh, you know, that wasn't um but if but definitely if you the darker you were the the more you would that would be the the point to to get teased. That was definitely something negative, and then and then the lighter, especially if you're if you're a woman, a girl, then yeah, like that was the more attractive you were, the more, the more of the it girl that you were, the more you know that that you were lighter.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

I mean, it's funny because like I think because you came here as a teenager, right? No, I came here well, uh I was 12. Oh 12. Okay, so you came in, you came in like tail end of elementary, maybe middle school. Yeah, you I think it really is prevalent in Shereem. I would love to hear when you're younger than that, because like you're just discovering that people are different than you. Because like when you think about it, when you're in like preschool, kindergarten, you kind of see most of your family.

SPEAKER_04 12:51

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Then when you go to school, it's like, oh my god, it's all these different people that I've never met before, this random collection of kids, and then you be like, you look like this, you look like this. It's like that, it's like that self-actualization. So I think by the time you get into like high school and middle school, you already on whatever team you on. True, you already did. So it's funny how like you may have just missed it because you were people had already become old enough to be like, Look, man, this is what I am. I know I've been like this for a couple years now or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 13:21

I don't think so. You don't think you missed it? No, no, because I mean the other people who were darker definitely got tea.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

See, there you go again.

SPEAKER_04 13:28

But I will say the I'm joking with you. I'll say this. I on the flip side, I've seen light, lighter people get teased too. Like names like you were saying, the the darker skin names. I would hear names like light bright. You never heard that term before?

SPEAKER_01 13:42

I got called 1158.

SPEAKER_04 13:45

I mean, but I've I've heard it on both sides, like for light, light people, and then for dark, dark people.

SPEAKER_03 13:53

Yeah, but I know I remember it was it was funny because those there was this one girl in in my um uh middle school when I f when I when I first came here, everybody wanted to be with her, right? Of course, she was like super light. They don't have pretty babies. She she wasn't even that cute, honestly. They wanted them pretty babies. They wanted them pretty babies. I think the thing that she really had going for her was her light skin. Like she, you know what I'm saying? Uh okay, and not and I'm not here to knock light-skinned people or anything like that, right? But just just using uh uh uh an example, right? So Martin, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Oh, I was just about to bring that up.

SPEAKER_03 14:34

Yeah, Mar, I think Mart, okay, so I've had conversations with with people now, like looking back in hindsight, like just kind of jokingly, but like I think there's an element of truth to it, right? Like, who do you think was was prettier, Pam or Gina?

SPEAKER_01 14:47

I was uh Gina fan.

SPEAKER_03 14:48

Yeah?

SPEAKER_01 14:49

I was a Gina fan.

SPEAKER_03 14:50

As far, but you thought that she was prettier than Pam?

SPEAKER_01 14:52

I like Gina personality more because I felt Gina was more, she was goofy, she was more like I would say like she was more like partner. Like, I feel like Pam, how the way it portrayed her. I won't say how she was, but how the way they portrayed her is like real rough, real around the edges. And that's it.

SPEAKER_04 15:09

That's probably purposeful though.

SPEAKER_03 15:11

That is where you associate colorism to personality, right? Traits. And I think that that was on purpose. First of all, I thought Pam was always prettier, right? Um, but I don't think she could ever be play that role of the pretty one. Like that is true. Martin always was dogging Pam, always talking about BDB. BDB and right, yeah, BDB, right? B BDB, like that you're you're dark, you got nappy hair. You're not pretty. You're not the pretty one here. You're the rough one, you're the ghetto one, you're the the one that he associate all the negative traits to, right? Gina, the much lighter, has all the positives. She's the wifey type. You know, I think that's a perfect example of how colorism seeps into our culture because all the positive attributes and the wifey type is associated with with uh with Gina. Pam never had a man, never never really settled down, always always get made fun of, always seems like to be the one ready to fight, and all this other stuff. Yeah. I think those are consciously or subconsciously, that's part of our culture.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

But if I could say this though, there was some, even though I know people are gonna go, oh my god, there was some dark-skinned or brown-skinned sitcom wives and role models in the 90s, like when the sitcoms were prevalent. I I mean, yeah, I want to say uh First Prince of Bel-A. I know they did the swap, but still, I can say I can look back and was that intentional to swap?

SPEAKER_04 16:43

I don't even know what that was.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

I think that was a work dispute, though.

SPEAKER_04 16:46

I don't think that was a because it was a really dark when that started, and then they switched it to a lighter, much lighter person.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

Yeah, but I think that was a work dispute. You got Family Matters. Uh Harriet was dark-skinned, right? Yeah. I mean, I was a fan of the Hugley shows. His wife, uh Anise Neal, she was dark-skinned. Um, I mean, there's quite a few sitcoms. I know Martin was like the was on the pantheon of like black sitcoms in the 90s, but there was a ton of black sitcoms that I I was about to say the Cosby, but I think um Alicia Rasad, she's a little bit more. She's a little she's a little lighter or whatever. But I mean, there there was a ton of black sitcoms that maybe were just a notch down that had dark skin. But I don't think we we think about that. Like there was some good representation of dark-skinned women in the 90s.

SPEAKER_03 17:35

Yeah, I'm not saying that I don't say I wouldn't say that they weren't there. I just would say like it was a lot more common to even within those sitcoms, whenever you had the the the the fine girl show up in those sitcoms, it was it was more than likely not a dark-skinned woman girl. That's true, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:58

Because you think about the Cosby show, I think most of Theo's girlfriends were more like lighter skin. But can I plug the book real quick? Yes, we are at a resist bookseller, so Viola Davis's book Finding Me, this is an excellent book. I mean, it's it's it's real deep, you know, bring some tissues if you read it, but there's a lot of examples of here in uh of in her book about colorism. Yeah, she went through a lot, like if you like seeing her where she is today and what she went through as a child and as a as a you know becoming an actress is is really amazing. But she experienced colorism at a really young age, like she grew up in Rhode Island in a predominantly white neighborhood, and she was called every name, every not so nice black, you know, because of her dark skin name in the book. But she also talked about how she struggled as an actress um getting roles that weren't um that weren't a negative stereotype, right? So she not only roles on TV, but stage plays as well. So she she went through a a lot of different phases before she became like big as what she is today, but she definitely experienced even going to Juilliard in New York, she experienced a lot of, you know, like this is the type of role you should play, right? That that ghetto behavior, that um, you know, like just not not a positive role. So she she struggled with that and she shares that in her book. So Viola Davis Finding Me. Really good book.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

And buy it from Book of the Day. Resist Book sellers.

SPEAKER_03 19:39

Oh, go ahead. My bad, my bad, my bad. Also, let's let's take this moment to not just thank Resist Booksellers, but also to thank uh Modern Man Photography for hooking us up with uh with uh all this awesome production.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

We love you, man. Appreciate you.

SPEAKER_03 19:54

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

If I could say something right quick about the colorism thing, because we can talk about it here, but what we're doing is try to tie it to the diaspora. One experience I have that I would like to share with you all was about bleach and cream. So I went to Ghana in 1994. So for those of you who don't know, I'm not a tether. My my father is actually from Ghana and my mom's African American. So for those of you who call me a tether, I would say tether is.

SPEAKER_03 20:29

For those of you who use the word tether, uh can I can we cuss? Can we cuss? I mean, hey, you're a grown man. I ain't gonna cuss, but that's how I feel about y'all.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Yeah, I so yeah. But anyway, I never forget I was in Timma at my uh my Uncle James' store, right? My my uncle James had a had a store. It's now a restaurant and uh catering place, um 2.1 tavern in Timma. Um Great Food, shout out to my auntie, shout out to my cousin who's running it now. One of the things they used to sell in the store was this cream, and I remember I used to always go in the store and get these little, they didn't call them cookies, they call them biscuits, you know, because everything's from the British. They call them biscuits, these little sweet cookies. But in the little convenience store, they had this cream, it was called bleaching cream, it was called like skin white. And I'm like, what would that be for? So it was just a fleeting memory, you know, me being a kid there. So I went back, I took a long hiatus, didn't go back to Ghana until 2016. And I went to a gas station on Spentex Road, and there was a whole aisle of bleaching creams with various names now. Right bright white, uh super skinned, uh, what was the other one? Um, pure white, and they either had a white woman on them or a light skinned woman on them, and they even had potency. Some of them even had potency, like if you were super dark, they would put a dark. skinned woman on saying that you need the extra strength.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

Seriously, I I you know that's something we can share on our social media because I still have the pictures in my phone. Right? And people would be buying this stuff in droves. I'm not saying it's a it's like they're buying it in the sense of um they're standing in line buying it, but people are actually using this, right? So the self-esteem had been so low in some people they were willing to put a cream that we don't even know what's in it.

SPEAKER_03 22:34

And most I'm I'm willing to bet you that most of that stuff is harmful. Yeah is harmful for for your uh you know so yeah I I I think matter of fact I know that's that's the case because most of that stuff is actually illegal in Europe.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Yeah but it's sold and you what's crazy is if you go to some of the shops here that cater to um not so much anymore right but when you go to some of the shops that cater to you know um immigrants especially um West African immigrants or you know African immigrants as a whole you can find some of that cream they literally were thinking and I you can go look at this online and hopefully we can get an example somewhere there's people with dark elbows and light skin like they literally you couldn't change an elbow but you could think when you're born who I got a light skinned friend like Michael Jackson I got a dark skin like Michael Jackson I'm ready for some action you think Michael Jackson was bleaching nah what was he what was going on with him he had an Uncle Ruckus disease that was all re-vitilago or vitilago okay I I think he did I think he did and he tried to mask it I think he had it and it was happening and then he was like oh my god I have to do something about it I think it was it started and then it you think that affected his size of his nose too man's nose was a razor thin couldn't even breathe shout out to Mike man shout out to Mike the greatest pop star even the greatest he wasn't the greatest pop star the greatest pop star or whatever I agree with that but Shereem let me let me ask you this um if I could right because I don't think either of us want makeup or whatever right have you noticed it like because you know most women wear makeup do you wear makeup at all any any time maybe past every now and again okay I'm not a big makeup person okay but you have worn makeup in the past have you noticed like that once upon a time they didn't have different hues it was catered to a certain maybe skin color or texture or anything like that was there a time when like even like cosmetics products weren't yeah for you yeah I think like when I was like younger but now it's a it's definitely improved there's a lot of black makeup um artists I I I actually love uh Rihanna's brand Fenty she has a lot of different shades and it's it's very close to all the different shades that we have but yeah I think there have been and and I think some people also try to make their skin a little lighter really with the foundation that they use. Really I mean you can't change who you are can you so I don't know this colorism thing I think it even expands the border because uh I've been to the Caribbean and stuff too I've been to the Dominican Republic I've been to a couple other countries and things Kofi in Guyana I'm not too keen on how you guys's population is segmented but I how is it viewed over there?

SPEAKER_03 25:38

Um I I would say I don't I can't really speak specifically to to Guyana. I don't know if I feel like it's just we honestly I feel like this is something that's spread throughout the the African diaspora as a whole period yeah equally I think because there's there's there's either some kind of formal or informal caste system that's been that was put in place throughout the diaspora. You know black I'm Dominican Yeah exactly right you know so no matter no matter where you are in in the diaspora there's always been the idea of like white is on top and and dark black is at the bottom and the and the somewhere in the middle you you the closer you are to whiteness the the the more the more privileges you got I think that started from there the more respect because the more respect the more privilege like literally you you might be able to get certain jobs you know that's actually still exists today you know speaking of jobs there's a lot of bias out there yeah you think so oh yeah absolutely no so there's actually studies that show that the lighter you are the the more you make when even when even when you factor in for education and everything else so like it's not something that's just of the past like this still act these biases still actually play a tangible role in our society right now.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

Would you say though and one thing I don't I think we all don't want to put this out there we're not saying that people of fairer skin have this ulterior motive to like get over right because it's not their fault it's the system that has created right a quote unquote unbalanced and unbiased right right but those are our brothers and sisters too you know I'm saying like hey like I mentioned they get teased too like I told you I heard like the light bright comments I was that is not a tease that that is a Tap. It's like getting called 1158 is still worse than I thought it was 1159. I said the only difference between you never mind I'm not gonna go through this producer but it's we don't want to say that those people of fairer skin are they have a like a hierarchical like bias to their own race or whatever because they're just products of it.

SPEAKER_03 27:51

They don't have a a choice in the matter you you're born how you're born is it's the system yeah the system creates these these issues yeah but I guess the question is like what can we do about it?

SPEAKER_01 28:05

Like we always try to come up with solutions here. Is it a solution to the colorism problem or is it just something that's just a fact I think we have to have more conversations about it.

SPEAKER_04 28:12

I don't think we talk about colorism like we talk about racism a lot but I don't think the the colorism conversation happens.

SPEAKER_03 28:19

So we need to bring somebody from the light skinned delegation here okay we can cancel I I mean I I I think to that point though like um it is something I didn't know until I was doing research for this show that I realized that there are actually studies that show that lighter skinned people like make more money. Like there's like a dollar more the lighter you are right so they they show they start off at like dark dark brown and and like there's like a basically like by the time you make it up to to to white you're making significantly more than than than black or darker people. I mean so I think things like that was would would take it beyond just like oh teasing right or people's self-esteem but realizing that no there this thing actually does affect people's psyche their their ability to earn a living healthcare ability to get a job how they're treated when they go to the doctor I mean right all these types of things all those things get factored in and I mean and so to your point about like light skinned people also suffer too as well like like they have to walk around with this kind of stigma them themselves too wondering you know like am I here because I'm light skinned you know um am I going to be accepted by by darker skinned people as being black yeah and that's why they go so hard.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

Yeah right I mean that's a that is a stereotype that is a stereotype especially light skinned men they go hard yeah but well okay but so let me challenge you on that though is that is that actually true or is that actually just a stereotype that we have of light skinned men because we we do have that we talk about like the pretty boy type of no no I'm talking about like uh the author Sean King I'm talking about Colin Kaepernick um there's a lot of um Malcolm X there's a lot of lighter skinned historical figures W E B the boys yeah but now you just but you you're kind of that's not a I feel like you're kind of cherry picking to say that that you're associating it with their light skin but that doesn't mean that they're doing it because they're light skinned no no no no no no but but it could be I've heard the argument and I won't say it's an accurate argument but the argument is there that people of biracial um ethnicity tend to go harder in the terms of okay of the you know racial equality and issues that affect blacks it they tend to want to be more proactive on it for some odd reason it's almost like a a sense of trying to prove theirself right I'm not saying that's an accurate argument but an argument has been had about that many of times.

SPEAKER_03 31:02

I don't know so I'm not sure about that I see where you're going with that and I could see how kind of theoretically that could be but I could also see how it could be that maybe they're accepted in more in places because of their light skin maybe because subconsciously we all associate lighter skinned people with with with being more intelligent that maybe they're able to elevate beyond you know beyond you know somebody else who who is might be you know maybe maybe they're just accepted in more spaces and and given a a a better a higher platform or a bigger bigger platform because because of their light skin I don't know you know I think it's a I mean I think I think two things two things though.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

Yeah two things would be true because I think that argument like I said it's not my argument it's a argument that has been had is that since they have this racial ambiguity you know they want to have some type of deep rooted sense of self so they align themselves with the the struggle of black people in this country in the diaspora because that tends to be where they can get more bang for their buck when it comes to hey I want to do something well where should you do something at I'm gonna help the blacks you know I say that in a joking way but I'm serious like hey I can actually make an impact here because that's half of my identity and I also want to prove to my people that hey I'm not just riding the fence I'm with y'all you know that's a good point I mean it it is I I I could I can see the I could see that I I see what you're saying.

SPEAKER_03 32:41

I mean shout out to Barack I mean hey I mean he he's he's a pointing case for that or whatever you know yeah yeah I mean would would would he would he have made it as far as he did if he was not mixed I'm gonna be honest with you matter of fact before I I would love to hear your opinion do you think Barack would have made it as far as he did if he wasn't biracial that's a tough one that is a tough one I'm not sure honestly I don't know I think he would have you think so I think that brother is a great oritator I think if one thing Obama if I think God touched him when it comes to that skill of talking that man can captivate a room like no I've never seen anything like it before he is very inspirational I'm gonna say no I'm not saying I'm taking anything away from him and his intelligence he's gonna make you take his picture down in your house now I ain't got no pictures of him you don't have the traditional no no him Michelle and the the kids no okay I just had that it it it comes it comes with your uh your black experience kit you didn't get that kit no I don't have one of those he didn't open the door when they came no but I'm gonna say no because I feel like that first of all his race was always talked about unfair to him but it was a factor right and to the point where he even had to make a speech about it like you remember after his pastor his his old pastor Jeremiah right yeah came out and and and and and uh basically forced him into the position where he had to make a whole speech about race and during that speech he basically highlighted his his white side and said like no you you guys I'm I'm not some radical black person over there I'm I'm mixed I'm I'm this that and I'm not even faulting him for saying that but I definitely feel like there was a segment of America that was uncomfortable with his blackness and the fact that he was um half white which is why we were made him made them made him more acceptable they made they felt more comfortable and that's so it wasn't just what he was saying but they were like nah he he he wouldn't he wouldn't he wouldn't fight for reparations because he he got a white grandmother you know what I'm saying like I feel like there's some truth to that like there they he was he was seen as like acceptable and I think part of that had to do with the his mixed background what you think about I mean this is that might be why we are where we are today um because we had a a black president yeah because I mean they didn't say my president was mixed and my landlord no the part was my president was black my landmore was I mean yeah he was he was black I'm not questioning his blackness but we all know he was also mixed and I'm just saying for the for some people out there some segment of the white population out there who who are uncomfortable with with black people or uncomfortable what what the the they imagine a black president would do right as far as like things like reparations and things like that he made them feel comfortable and I think part of that making them feel comfortable had to do with the fact of his mixed background. So he kind of was relatable to yeah he was relatable yeah yeah I mean honestly the politicians do this all the time right like Kamala Harris right like yes she was black but she was also Asian and she made sure she highlighted that fact like oh I'm not all black I might am Asian too you know like yo I'm I you know I'm saying I'm gonna I'm gonna go step at Howard what you know when it comes time but Asians y'all y'all I got y'all too you know I'm saying like we re-race and politics is definitely intertwined and so I don't think we could ignore that.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

I don't think you can or whatever you brought up a good point about sororities. You're a part of sorority correct I am what sorority is that ma'am Sigma Gamma Rose Sorority Incorporated so I'm not a part of the divine nine but I've all I have a lot of friends that are and I I respect the culture because what you all do in the community and the institution in our race I think the divine nine is like it has to be there. I think it's like you can't replace the divine nine I've been hearing on the internet people like I denounce the divine nine because of whatever I don't want to get into religion you know which which people have their own thing but I think it's to our experience here in America I think the divine nine is absolutely necessary when I was younger I always heard there was like these different racial divides not racial but different colorism divides over the different fraternities and things like that.

SPEAKER_03 37:41

I don't want you to speak on in the sense of the stereotypes but oh yeah I mean we can speak on oh my bad big dog I mean we all okay the deltas are the dark skin the AKs are the light skin wow the capas are light skinned that the Qs are the dark skin like but but this is not but this is not just stereotype this stuff is actually grounded in fact like they're that's how these organizations began like they they weren't inclusive for for for for the Red Bulls I would say they're I would say they're more inclusive now. No yeah yeah yeah I'm saying that now yes but like you look back at those old pictures yeah yeah like that that wasn't an accident like these organizations were very elitist and and part of that feeling like you're elitist like you you had tests you had you know as far as like if you couldn't be a certain shade you had we we we did a lot of things to ourselves to you know I'm saying so like this colorism thing like it yes it was originally imposed from the outside but we internalized those things ourselves and then we implemented and these things ourselves you know on ourselves and we still are it's the self it's the self-perpetuating yeah machine that runs himself yeah yeah like we don't have to have any type of inside outside input anymore it's just something that self-perpetuates ourselves itself in our yeah in our culture. I mean and and like the the aka's were like the pretty ones right like the light skinned the pretty ones were the aka's like we like the pretty boys are the capas like like we we we internalize these things and we perpetuate it and so like I'm glad you brought that up because I definitely think that's that's that's part of how these things manifested you think that that was part of how that sense of colorism spread in like America especially times after Jim after you know um the Emancipation Proclamation because a lot of those organizations not to speak on I'm no expert at the divine nine so please don't come for me but I know a lot of them were formed in like the late 18 to early 1900s or whatever so we're talking about Jim Crow era we're talking about after reconstruction or whatever so are we I won't say insinuating but do you think that was part of the spread of the color of culturism in in black American culture?

SPEAKER_01 39:55

Do you think I think that definitely pays I think so yeah partly but it's not the case anymore I don't think so I I I see it a lot more diverse now I mean I applaud you all for what you guys do and I was I was acutely aware of like I guess that divide but I didn't know that that was such a big thing in the beginning and thank you for bringing that up because you know one question I have for you uh Shireen is and don't hit me for this one right okay I'm gonna try not to I'm close to you I know I know yeah I know I know you I know where you're from right you know no you ain't got no Tim's on we good how is and I would love to hear from Kofi too black love when it came to because I know y'all been together for almost a quarter century now black love when it came to dating as a young woman right be careful what you say because your husband here right how to be on the spot Kofi I mean how was it was was there like was there any pressures like as a young woman right to like date a certain type because I remember when I was in high school people used to say I want to get the light skinned guy because I want to have some pretty babies right with like like talk to us pretty hair yeah and pretty hair right talk to us about like that teenage to early adulthood dating era like was that a thing to have preference over skin type I personally didn't okay no some of my friends they did that was a thing yeah that was a that was definitely a thing like they they would only talk to guys that were either dark some preferred darker guys some preferred lighter guys gotcha um me personally though I I was more personality first so glad you didn't say prefer lighter guys because I'd be like what the I was hoping that you'd be gonna bleach and cream hey man we can start an import business we can get a whole shipping container full of it you just dump it on you just disappear when the man where am I going?

SPEAKER_03 42:03

So I have to ask you Kofi growing up nah I never I never bought into that I never bought into that um but I think part of that was some of the media that I consumed like I was always a little bit more on the alternative like non-mainstream when it comes to music so I would listen to what are we what we used to call conscious rap I you know so like things people you know uh music musicians and and rappers that that always uplifted dark skinned uh ladies what's that song uh Talib quality brown skinned lady yeah where you go like I I always internalized things that that lifted up our black women like and not separated it as far as like you know skin color and you know and and being a lighter skin and stuff like that. Because I always felt I always had a problem with that.

SPEAKER_01 42:56

I I just never yeah never I just always re realized that that was that was really silly and and to you know I always I always found all shades of dark skin women uh good answer black love what about you so for me I've I've always been mainly the darkest person in in the room or one of the darkest people unless there's another like fellow African there or you know maybe a fellow Caribbean there you know like I'm always on the bottom end of the uh of the shade chart the spectrum the spectrum right but I really never had any preference you know uh I will say this um I was married and uh my my ex wife was um was light skinned but that was based off of just personality that wasn't based off anything but the crazy thing out about it is when you do marry or you're with somebody Of people assume that that's the thing. Like, oh, you like I've I've had that said to me before where it was like, oh, you only deal with, I'm like, well, no, I was I was married to that person. It's not like I only dealt with, you know, um, and it's funny because like I said, my kids are a few shades um lighter than me, and you know, they don't they don't get any of that that that super uh dark skinned jokes and things like that or whatever, you know. But I remember as a kid, you know, uh my grandma, especially my mom's side, boy, don't go outside, you can get dark. Like that was said, that was said. You know, I never heard that from my my Ghanaian side of the family. Shout out to my grandmother, I love her to death, you know. She was from Augusta, Georgia. She'd be like, Yeah, boy, you've been out there, son, you black. You know, so it's funny because like on my Ghanaian side, that never was a thing. But on my African-American side, that was a that was a thing. Not in a bad way. She didn't mean it with this sense of color in the world.

SPEAKER_03 45:00

I think subconsciously. Subconsciously. Subconsciously, I think that's where that came from. Like, you don't want to get too black.

SPEAKER_01 45:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I remember her saying that, playing outside and stuff like that. You know, she would say things like that, not in a bad way, but it's funny because I've always had both sides of the conversation, like the diaspora and the continent, and we approach it completely different. You know, and um it's just been curious. But no, I I I love all hues. You know, I love all hues, it's just I wish, especially with the kids, they would embrace the differences instead of just straight going to the dark is ugly and the light is right.

SPEAKER_03 45:38

Like, yeah, I mean I definitely think it's still an issue.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

I mean to this day, in 2026.

SPEAKER_03 45:45

I mean, we got and I think some of that is perpetuated in our music, right?

SPEAKER_01 45:50

Do I need to quote Lil Wayne again? No, but I mean it's a lot of it's a lot of quotes.

SPEAKER_03 45:54

You could quote almost all of the trash rappers in the you know out there. Like you look at the music videos, you almost will never see a dark-skinned girl.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

That's not true.

SPEAKER_03 46:05

Almost, I'm not saying not saying never, but you tell me the maj the the the 90% are first of all, they gotta be some foreign, some kind of Middle Eastern, something, something.

SPEAKER_01 46:16

If that it depends, it depends on what rapper you got, because I'm about to say there's a lot of rapidizing, but okay. I was about to say there's there's some there's some current contemporary artists that feature dark skinned women in their in their um music.

SPEAKER_04 46:28

I think it's more college now, but I think when we were growing up, it was different.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

Man.

SPEAKER_04 46:33

I don't watch music videos right now. I don't know. I don't really watch them videos. I think growing up, I think when we were growing up, I would see is more like like long hair, light skin.

SPEAKER_01 46:42

Yeah, or yeah, yeah, Foxy Brown, you had Lil Kim, they wasn't light. That's true. They was out there. Ah, name me a female. I'm talking about in a guy's rap video, is not their oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 46:53

Well, I don't I don't mean the rappers themselves. I'm talking about the the the video, the girls that are in male black rapper, you know, rapper videos, they're typically somebody like light skinned, right? And I I I think that's part of the what perpetuates this standard of beauty, that the standard of beauty is lighter skin.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

Yeah. There's two rappers that I don't know if y'all are familiar with, they actually like make a conscious effort. Um, young Dolph, who passed away a couple years ago in Memphis, he always had dark skinned women in his video. And he did it on purpose. And his cousin, who's kind of carried on his leg, uh legacy key glock, he anytime he has a leading lady, she's always dark-skinned. So there's there's it's even your boy NBA Youngboy. He's a lot of a lot of his, a lot of his leading ladies are dark-skinned. So as much as y'all say he be up in there shoot him, shoot him, bang, bang, there's a little bit of consciousness into him.

SPEAKER_03 47:47

That's good, that's good. So I mean, you know, yeah. I mean, I hope that I hope that is a trend because it definitely was for the longest while the standard of beauty was the lighter skin, you know, uh women. And there's nothing wrong with y'all. Hey, look, light-skinned women out there, look, y'all are beautiful. Just saying like we already get called uh tether.

SPEAKER_01 48:09

Now you're gonna say, now they're gonna call us a name.

SPEAKER_03 48:14

We're here to uplift, not tear down. So we're uplifting our darker skinned women right now, you know, um, and just letting letting them know like y'all are just as beautiful. Um, and so like those standards that that really start off throughout slavery and and and kind of got passed on through the generations, um, yeah, we gotta we gotta fight back against those those things. Like the stands of beauty where it's thick lips, big nose, kinky hair, all that stuff. That's all beautiful. I'm supposed to say BDDs.

SPEAKER_01 48:46

No, boy. But shout out to shout out to all the women, no matter what heater you are, because ultimately I I believe today beauty can be be seen. That's the one thing I love about today, even though I know the media is so fractured and fragmented when it comes to where you get news from. Is it real, fake news? I don't know. But you're able to see so many different things that without this little device here, you wouldn't be able to see. And I think that we're able to see like all different types of beauty or whatever. You gotta be careful with your IG algorithm though. Pastor, what's the pastor's name? Oh yeah, so you call it names.

SPEAKER_02 49:24

I ain't saying names.

SPEAKER_01 49:26

You call it names. I'm not I'm not doing that. Pastor So-and-so. So shout out to the dark skin, brown skin, caramel, everything in between, you know. Well, Picarican. Oh, that's it. So no black of Dominican. So somebody said that to me before. Shout out to the Dominicans, too. But I will say this though, and I know we gotta wrap this up. Um, if the wizards decide to do We're not going back there, folks.

SPEAKER_03 49:53

What about the Fuego? Oh, only shout out to Fuego. If it's only they only display the dark skin, the dark skin strippers.

SPEAKER_04 50:00

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 50:03

Dark skin strippers only at the stadium night in DC. That may not support it. Alright, with that said, Sheree, it is a wrap. Baby, love you.

SPEAKER_01 50:18

Thank you for coming on the show. You're awesome, Shereen.

SPEAKER_04 50:20

Y'all were fun.

SPEAKER_01 50:21

You should be a uh like an honorary check-in guest sometimes.

SPEAKER_04 50:25

Yeah, I could do that.

SPEAKER_01 50:26

You come on, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 50:27

I gotta get Kofi over here on the control.

SPEAKER_03 50:29

No, no, he he's not he's like this because you're here. I know you you brought up the worst to me. I can't believe that.

SPEAKER_04 50:34

Can I put this again?

SPEAKER_03 50:35

Yeah, book this again. Yeah, the book of the day.

SPEAKER_04 50:37

All right, book of the day is finding me, Viol Davis. Excellent read. You can get it here at Resist Booksellers down in Old Town Petersburg.

SPEAKER_01 50:45

Can you show the back of that book? Man, yep, she would have got cracked on. Yeah, that's that's I think she's gonna further. It's an excellent book. No, no, no. Show the back of the book one more time, right? I and I'm not saying it's joking. It's a it's Violet Davis is actually like somebody I really admire or whatever. But boy, I swear, those elementary school pictures were not flattering for anybody. My elementary school pictures are terrible. I don't know what it is about this camera back in the day. They used to be like, look the worst you can. You know what I'm talking about. Like, I got elementary school photos.

SPEAKER_02 51:17

We could have ended on a positive note, and you talk about her forehead.

SPEAKER_01 51:21

No, I know. Oh, I didn't say that. I never said that.

SPEAKER_02 51:25

We out of here, y'all. Thank you, resistant sellers, thank you, Motherman.

SPEAKER_01 51:29

We love y'all, we love y'all. Fix the elementary school pitches, fix my campaign uh pitch.