From Griots to Spoken Word: The Black Storytelling Tradition

Stories have always been more than entertainment in the African diaspora—they have been tools of survival, resistance, healing, and cultural preservation. From the griots of West Africa to modern poetry, theater, and spoken word, storytelling has carried the wisdom, struggles, triumphs, and identities of Black people across generations.

In this episode of Sankofa Sessions with Kofi and Kofi, we explore the enduring power of storytelling and why it remains vital to our communities today. Joining us are Charlene Riley, Chairwoman of the Blk Virginia Theatre Alliance, arts advocate, playwright, and community activist, and Khalil Houston, writer and spoken word artist whose work challenges, inspires, and amplifies the human experience.

Together, we discuss how stories preserve history, shape identity, fuel social movements, and connect generations across the diaspora. We also examine the role of artists, poets, and theater makers in ensuring that our narratives are told authentically and passed on to future generations.

Whether through the stage, the page, or the spoken word, our stories continue to remind us where we've been—and help guide us toward where we're going.

Join us for a powerful conversation about memory, culture, creativity, and the stories that continue to carry us forward.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:16

Alright, let's get 'em.

SPEAKER_05 0:17

Boom.

SPEAKER_04 0:18

Let's get it.

SPEAKER_05 0:19

Alright, welcome back to another episode of Save Kofi Sessions with Kofi and Kofi. What's going on? I am Kofi A9.

SPEAKER_04 0:26

I'm just here with Deuce. I'm gonna keep on rolling with the two, man, because you know.

SPEAKER_05 0:31

Deuce slash Kofi A D. And uh yeah, today we got a we got a pack, we got a packed stage here today. We got two guests that are joining us to uh have a conversation about um spoken word and storytelling within the black community and some of the traditions, how that's been passed on over time. Uh our first guest is Charlene Riley, and uh she's accompanied by Khalil Houston. Welcome, welcome, welcome to the show. Welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome. Appreciate y'all joining us. Man, look, I'm glad to be here, man. Honestly, it's been a while already.

SPEAKER_04 1:10

Oh, this is gonna be the good episode. It's gonna be a good episode. No, no, don't be shot. Oh, you want to get shot from the camera? Let it roll. Let it roll. I'm talking about you feel me. But we gonna hey look, the good thing is when two people uh of you know the equal skill, they can recognize and be like, you know what? That's my match right there. So shout out to you. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Hey, I love that. Hey, you know what? Worthy adversary. I love that.

SPEAKER_04 1:42

Yeah, we're the adversary, right? A good sparring part.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

I love that. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_04 1:47

But before we get started in this, we gotta shout out our sponsor, Resist Booksellers down here in Petersburg, Virginia. I've been saying it for many times. Yeah, you've been saying it, and I think they just experienced this beautiful bookstore. Maybe not for the first time. I think y'all been here before. This is my first time. First time. So guess what? You gotta come back. The goal is to buy a book a month from this man. I think y'all can commit to that. You bought a record? So we need to buy, we need to make a pledge to buy one item a month from the good brother Demetrius to support this beautiful bookstore.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

We buy a lot of other things, but we've got to be good stuff up there. Best bookstore like I've been to. Yeah, we've been on parley. Yeah, parlay.

SPEAKER_04 2:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Professional sports.

SPEAKER_04 2:25

Shout out to the Miami Heat that's down by two right now, and my parley is hurting, but it's okay, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:29

Alright.

SPEAKER_04 2:30

Hey, you know, it might be hell on earth, but we are right. We are right. But we alright. Shout out to Resist Booksellers, right? Hey, you go to Amazon, why not buy here? Also, modern man photography, the best videographer, videographer, excuse me. Best this best side of the Mississippi, I think. You're the best, like on the whole East Coast. So that is, right? But that's how that's how good he is, though.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Oh well.

SPEAKER_04 2:58

So, you know, hire him. I'm gonna definitely get you information now. Yeah, see, we already making plugs and contacts already. But my brother, we got a really lively topic today, right?

SPEAKER_05 3:07

Yes, yes, yes. Um, so before we get into it, let me go ahead and get read off uh the bios for I like this setup where you read the bios.

SPEAKER_04 3:17

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_05 3:17

We we got we got we got to read. All right, so Charlene Riley, she is a chairwoman of the Black Virginia Theater Alliance, uh, focuses on art, advocacy, including playwriting, acting, singing, and dancing. Also serves as the hub coordinator for Center for Common Ground, which is a nonprofit geared towards voting and voters educating education. As part of her activism, she also uh works with youth in schools and communities, helping them to bridge the gaps between people, uh between the people and their needs. Welcome. Welcome again.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

You know what? Good stuff, it's busy work, but I love it, and I'm doing what I love, so it don't feel like work. Except when I meet people who don't share the same passions as I do as far as serving the community. Because one thing, you know, I notice a lot of organizations, you know, they do things to uh it's performative. And it's and it's not really rooted in love, it's not rooted in well-being, it's not, you know, it's not rooted in it's not grassroots.

SPEAKER_04 4:26

Yeah, it's not. Right, they're just doing it because of the position or maybe an image it portrays instead of actually doing it for the original cause, which is helping out the people.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Crazily, I said earlier the reason why um a lot of things are not really going for people, like how they wanted to go, because a lot of them they do things for praise and glory. And it really don't belong to them in that way, in that sense. But it's it it gets weird though. It gets weird.

SPEAKER_05 4:53

Well, we're gonna get into all that. We're gonna get into all that. Let me uh let me also just uh take a moment to uh to read off my man Khalil's um bio. Shout out to Khalil. Khalil Houston is a writer, spoken word artist, and entrepreneur from the south side of Richmond, Virginia.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 5:08

Uh throughout his career, Khalil has reached significant milestones as a performing artist. He has also show uh showcased his work at universities across the country, collaborated on EPs, led community workshops, and comp uh complete comp competed in national poetry competitions. Khalil earned his bachelor's degree in English from Virginia Commonwealth University with a concentration in creative black literature. Welcome, brother.

SPEAKER_04 5:32

Go rounds, go round.

SPEAKER_05 5:34

And and is a is one of the dopest uh um spoken word artists. Oh and I can attest to that. I please like when if you hear this dude perform, man, everything is just really suspicious. You gotta dismiss it. We're gonna have to pull up. All right, absolutely please, absolutely brilliant. So I appreciate you. Appreciate you, appreciate both of y'all taking time to come on the program.

SPEAKER_04 5:53

Yeah, take that little drive down 95, come down to Petersburg, why you gotta be giving all allocation? They already know we in Petersburg, you know.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

How do you know we don't got people waiting on us off the end? Like you on the whole thing.

SPEAKER_04 6:04

I mean, if you have those type of problems, um we don't know. Okay, well, I mean, if you have them type of problems, right? You might be in the heat of the night. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

They walk on the wall.

SPEAKER_04 6:22

You gotta tie it in. You gotta walk. It is great though. But thank you. Thank you for coming. We appreciate y'all. Absolutely. You know, and I look can I say this before we get started? I I love, you know, back in the day I grew up here, right? I grew up in Petersburg. There used to be this little silent, I grew up in the you know 80s, 90s, you know, early 2000s. There used to be this little tension between Richmond and Petersburg, and now I love it because we go between the cities like it's nothing.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

Yeah. That's how I was uh with Southside of Northside, like in the early, I want to say, I'm gonna say, I was born in '95. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 6:53

So yeah, you you know.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

Yeah, so it's like you couldn't even go to Northside by yourself, you know, for whatever reason, like in terms of conflict, you know.

SPEAKER_04 7:04

Yeah, like little, like it was it's crazy because I I remember, right, before we get started, everybody who was enrichment used to come down to Al Zina's. Right? If you I'm I'm from that area, and then we used to go up to Club Boston Club 534 because we didn't want to see the same, you know, girls and stuff around here, all the well, you know, Colonial Heights and Prince George, all them places. So we used to party with each other, but everybody was like, oh no, it's I ain't going up there. But we would go up there for certain reasons. But I love that like now it's it's nothing. We go around and move around within reason, you know, within reason, like it's nothing. So we able to just get stuff done and collaborate. Because that wasn't always the case. No, it wasn't. So welcome. And I I'm not gonna say your exact location, I promise. I don't want no problems. So, my brother, what we got?

SPEAKER_05 7:50

Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, just to kind of set the foundation here a little bit, like if both of you could kind of give us your your um opinion as to like what what storytelling has meant for the black culture, the diaspora throughout history, um, just from like a significant standpoint in a big picture way. That's a loaded question.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

I would start with uh I think spoken word, and I'm and I might be a little biased, but I think spoken word is probably like um probably like the most raw form of art when it comes to just creation, right? Because when we even we go back in like human history, right, just the ability to learn how to speak, right? To communicate within itself was monumental and that ability was like you know passed down from you know family to family, uh Homo sapien or Homo sapien, whatever the case may be, right? So it's like when we fast forward to African uh to uh to the African roots of like, you know, all tradition and things like that. I think when we uh cross and compare like the idea of like speaking and being able to communicate to large crowds, um that's like very important. Like because I I can say that public speaking is probably one of the number one, it's the number one fear, right? And we've been public we've been public speaking for eons, right? It's a part of how we communicate, it's it's a part of how we build community, it's a part of how we solve problems, uh politics, uh, even disputes, right? Um I'm going on a tangent right now, but like even when we go uh we talk about the uh the griot, um the record keeping of African culture, right? That was a big responsibility uh in that in certain um African cultures, right? It wasn't something like, you know, that was like, you know, uh you working at um tropical smoothie or something like that. But it was a very role, it was a very important role that was passed down from generation to generation.

SPEAKER_05 10:06

So the real just I mean, and correct me if I'm if I'm wrong, but so basically he was like the the the historian of the community.

SPEAKER_02 10:16

Absolutely. He was the historian, he was the record keeper, uh he kept the heart intact. He or she. Right? Um yeah, from my perspective, I think spoken word is probably like the wrongest form of like uh black cultural expression.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Well, I will say um historically, just with the distribution of African people through different parts of the world, storytelling is very important because um, you know, with the transition here, it was a language change, a cultural change. It was just a lot of big, significant changes coming about. So a lot of history of the I wouldn't say the old world, but you know, the time before they got here, of course, was not even allowed to be spoken about. And just to go back to what you were saying, just like um in the past with the the oral historians, their jobs was very important, and not every civil civilization just appointed that job to anyone. And for one, it had to be someone that was trustworthy, someone who they knew that could keep our actual record of it, and just it was uh it's more so uh an honorary position. Um, and what it means, I mean, and and I know like for myself and my family, it's very important because I know I can go all the way back to my family as back as like 1800s just from storytelling. So very important in the diaspora because as we spread all throughout the continent, we still hold on to those things. Now, what society and what those norms allow you to practice cannot negate what you know, and you know, because you don't argue with people about what you know, right? Uh if I know this, you I can't argue, you know, you don't argue about what you know, so it is very important because it it it gives you a sense of of course yourself and to know who you are, but also a sense of belonging because you have an oral document, you know, you have an oral record of where you come from. So that that's powerful in itself.

SPEAKER_05 12:29

And I kind of feel like um especially for the the people in the diaspora who were not allowed to read or write, yeah. Like storytelling was and music and and and and all of that was part of how we passed on the stories and our traditions and and things like that is how we kept our history, you know, alive because we were prevented from uh having written history.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

Even if you look at um Negro spirituals, um, even if you look at braid patterns, you know, slaves used to braid escape roads in their hair, like the innovation of blacks, people just it just would never amaze. It just I I'm I'm ceased, like it's always something that amazes me because the way they was just working so hard to even still have their own celebrations and their own traditions and their own customs. Like I met um this lady, she used to um drive my sister on the school bus, and she was telling us about how her family was like from the deep country and stuff like that, and a lot of them like were not educated, they did not go to school. But she was like, every time they used to go to bed and before they used to eat and they used to pray and stuff, they used to make abolutions like like Muslims. So am I mad? I'm like, okay, well, how y'all know that? But they didn't necessarily know what they were doing or why they were doing it, they just know that that was something that they just did in their family. They did it before bed, they did it before they ate, they did it when they woke up. They just know that that's a tradition to practice. Now, I don't think she had the history as to how they came to that, but so even when I imagine stuff like that, and even just bringing up like my own family's background, like my grandma used to share a crop, and my grandmother didn't go to school, and it's just a lot of history like that. My grandmother was born in a very small town, maybe like 400 and some people in the whole town, and she's from a real small town called Littleton, North Carolina. It's probably like maybe 1,100-some people now in like present-day time, very small, to the point that they were still um, I'm not gonna say in slavery, but you could say like a low form of slavery all the way up until like 1962. So very important, very important. And actually, earlier today, I was um just kind of like on ancestry, just digging around just to see what I can see because my grandmother never spoke much about her life. I mean, we knew that she was raised on a farm and stuff like that. We knew she ain't go to school, but she never went into detail about her life, her upbranking, you know, not even much about her father or even her mother, or so I'm just so interested into knowing like what helped shape you into the person that I, you know, that I knew. Like what experiences made this for you? Yeah. So I'm I'm just trying to get into all that.

SPEAKER_05 15:19

And and I mean, a little little sidebar here, but just related to what you've been saying. Like, so I'm actually planning my family's first family reunion for next year. First time we've had that. And just in the planning process alone, we're like finding out so much stuff about our family. Like, I honestly didn't even understand my whole grandmother's and like like it was it's such a complicated web of of siblings and you know different marriages. And I'm like, we we name the name of the of the family reunion is Killkenny Andrews. I don't even didn't even know who the Andrews was up until we just decided before it just kind of came out from this conversation. So, like, yeah, I mean there's it's it's it's what I'm saying, like you're it's very powerful just being able to pass on these things through tradition and the fact that some of these things weren't even written down, and and you know, so yeah, it's it's it's some powerful stuff.

SPEAKER_04 16:17

If I could, I think, and I would love to hear you guys' opinion on this, right? I think, especially in our culture among the diaspora as a whole, the spoken word is so powerful because we use it in times of like of trauma and stress, you know. Um, just a little bit about my background, my family from Ghana, Africa, and one of the things, especially during the um the Ashanti um Anglo uh war was like when the when the British were fighting the Ashanti tribe in Ghana, they had a certain chance, they would say, to give them power. Right? There's certain like my dad used to talk to me about uh Anasi the Spider, right? About the lessons about that. Like I think one of the things that we have to remember is that those words and those stories that were passed down to us just weren't memory, but they had a meaning and a power behind them. How do you feel about that? Like, do you all in modern day and being in you know arts and literature and stuff, do you look to pass on those powerful messages as well in your art?

SPEAKER_02 17:16

Yeah, I think for me, like um one of the main reasons why I got into spoken word, just a quick segue. Um, I lost my brother to a triple homicide when I was 11 years old. Well, I lost my brother, my oldest brother, my second oldest cousin, my boy ran into a triple homicide, right? And when trauma hits the family, the children are forgotten a lot of times, right? And the only thing that kept me sane, or the only thing that I can use to reclaim my power was writing. Right? Like writing was my way of leaving my fingerprint on something, even if the identity of my family is fractured right now. Right? So I so just to just in my personal life, yeah, like I have uh moved mountains and transformed my identity and started my own healing process through the art of spoken words, right? And just to go back to like, you know, um in the times of slavery, you know, our ancestors used to uh sing songs for uh to communicate when we were meeting to uh rather escaping, planning.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

I love a code.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

Um we spoken code, right? It was it was a lot of uh way by the water. You know what I mean? That's literally uh a signal or a passage to uh to escape within itself, right? Um so yeah, like we can't we brought that from home, right? Like that's that's just a part of our DNA of how we connect to ourselves and our in the cosmos, you know, like um, but yeah, yeah. What about you?

SPEAKER_00 18:56

Well, for myself personally, I'm I know this is gonna sound crazy, y'all. This is gonna sound crazy, but sometimes in my free time, I spend a lot of time at the cemetery. And where I live, in the area I live, um, it's a lot of prominent people buried in the cemetery. People like John Marshall, Elizabeth Van Lou, um just random notable Richmond figures. But when I look at their graves and when I think about their legacy or what they left behind, it kind of makes me say, okay, well, I want to leave a different legacy or a different memory behind. And I would like for my work and what I'm doing to just represent something else. Because regardless of how you live your life, when you die, that's basically what people are gonna remember you. It could be good, it could be bad. Now, me personally, I would like for it to be good. I know some people it's not always gonna be good because you know, hey, but I think about legacy and what am I leaving behind? Like, for example, when I look at John Marshall grave and I think about how, oh, the racial impact y'all had, even like in the city. You know what I'm saying? Even if you think about George Washington and how he fought so hard during the Revolutionary War to keep blacks in slavery while he wore the teeth of his in of his slave that he owned. So when you even when you think about like Trump and MAGA and they don't want us to learn black history, but they're literally actively taking our struggles and trying to relate it to their racism and hatred. It's like you gotta be immersed in this history and stuff, and you gotta kind of know it to know what you to really witness what you're seeing. Because the same history they don't want taught in schools, they're trying to flip it and use it for their advantage. So you you you it just it's so many little things like that. But once again, for me, it goes back to legacy. What legacy are you leaving behind? When you lay down, how people gonna remember you?

SPEAKER_02 21:02

No, go ahead. Yeah, can I add on? I was of course now I was about to add on this like uh in terms of like the oral tradition, right? Um when I look back, because it's there's an old saying that goes, there's nothing new in the bloodline. There's nothing new in the bloodline. Right, yeah. That's so true. My brother was uh my brother that was murdered was an MC and an artist within itself, right? And I remember when when I was younger, um I don't know, it's like I think things are kind of just given to you when you're when you're born. Um I believe that I think cause I because I I can't remember a time where I I was actively trying to figure out how to write. It just came naturally, right? So it was moments where I would like write something or I would say something. Um when he was alive, of course, and he'd be like, Oh, snap, like you. Said that, whatever the case may be, and I think like when we talk about like the oral tradition within itself, I think like this might sound crazy, but I think uh that's a spiritual gift that's given. I don't think that's something that's like you can necessarily develop like you can develop it to a to a limitation, but I think like uh certain people are just like they just sent, man. Like when I think of like Saul Williams, right? When I think of Sonya Sanchez, when I think of Maya, when I think of uh even in today's um climate, right, in modern spoken word, right? Uh Ayana Florence, Roscoe, Brees, uh like I can go on and on about the names, and it's just like I always tell people, like, it's levels to things. Like sometimes people just don't have to work as hard to get to gain something, right? So I so just to add to the conversation.

SPEAKER_04 23:01

No, no, no, that's a that's a good point. I mean, I think one thing that we as a culture overall, and people may look down on this or whatever, but I think there's a supernatural power when it comes to our oral traditions because we needed special powers to get through certain parts of our history. Yeah, right? And we still need them today. We we still need them today. So I think that can't be undersold, that can't be undersold at all of the the power that spoken word and oral tradition played. Yeah. We can't. You want to bring us back in, Kobe? Bring us back in.

SPEAKER_05 23:37

You done started.

SPEAKER_04 23:38

Yeah, you know, I'm cool with it. You know what I'm saying? Sometimes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm messing with you though. What? It's okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

You know what? I think you are very entertaining.

SPEAKER_04 23:53

Likewise. Are you saying we can do a spin-off?

SPEAKER_00 23:56

Hey, look, hey, look.

SPEAKER_04 23:57

I can see it. I can see it. I'm glad it's tune in. I'm glad it. We can put it on Tubi. I'm off a tube.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

I love a good Tubi movie.

SPEAKER_04 24:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

Tubi need to stop though. Stop it. Nobody don't. Oh my god. They need your help, sir. That's what it is. They need your help.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

So hold on. About a Tubi movie and and email it to me. I'm gonna go over it.

SPEAKER_04 24:23

Before we go back into the serious topic, though, right? You were born in '95, so you might remember this. There was a show probably around 2011, 2012, since y'all from, you know, the capital city of Virginia.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

The capital of the Confederacy.

SPEAKER_04 24:36

Well, now you told people again where you lived in, but okay. No, you said that's what I'm talking about. Okay, right. There was a show called The Real Baby Mamas of Richmond. Oh CW, I mean, that was on Comcast and local channel. You know what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

Why are you pointing at me?

SPEAKER_04 24:49

Because I used to look at the show. It was a show. You remember that? So you talk about two week quality, they're just right there in the back. I used to watch it.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

But that was not too much though.

SPEAKER_04 25:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

Not too much. Okay. And shout out to them. Because they was they wasn't.

SPEAKER_04 25:05

I enjoyed that shit. I'm not joking. They were, they were. It was a local reality show. I'm not watching.

SPEAKER_02 25:11

I haven't like told it.

SPEAKER_04 25:12

Go back. It's on YouTube now. I was. I'm talking about. Oh, I was down in Norfolk. I used to live in Norfolk. I was down there watching it. You should.

SPEAKER_05 25:20

I'm not.

SPEAKER_04 25:21

Okay, I mean, hey. I'm gonna watch it. So can I can I ask you all this, right? Do you think that storytelling among the diaspora, right? Here, continent, you know, Caribbean, everything else, do you think it's been diminished because there's been so much pushed out? Because think about it now, right? Before we used to have one or two avenues to push things out, right? It might have been just theaters or it might have been straight to VHS. Now we got multiple streaming services, right? I remember in the 90s, right? People used to go to the movie theater to see these black movies because it was a it was a reflection. It was a rare occurrence and it was an authentic reflection of life. And you only got so many opportunities, right? That's it. So I want to ask you guys, because this conversation is relevant to what you were saying, do you feel like now it's been watered down and the message is not there anymore? It's 50-50. How so?

SPEAKER_02 26:16

50-50 for me is like uh again, it's a it's a talent. Like storytelling is a talent, right? And I I'm for um everybody having a voice, everybody having you know an opportunity to share whatever they're creating. Um, but I think we are lacking mentorship in the arts community. Um and I've seen this in the poetry community, I've seen this in the uh in the hip-hop community. Like, it's it's nothing wrong with telling your homeboy that he can't rap. Like I think, I think the best thing that you can do for him is to tell him the truth, right? In terms of how he needs to develop what he needs to work on, right?

SPEAKER_04 27:04

Even if that's getting a nine to five and quit his dreams, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:07

Say it again?

SPEAKER_04 27:07

I say, even if it is getting a nine to five and quitting his dreams, like, hey man, this ain't gonna work for you.

SPEAKER_02 27:11

Right. I'm I'm saying like, yo, like, at the end of the day, bro, get back in the lab, right? And I think when we talk about like movies or just putting out art, right? I think there has to be, I think there has to be a funnel system put in place a little bit better.

SPEAKER_05 27:27

Do you think Tyler Perry's a good story? Oh, I have to bring it up because he's controversial. Okay, and and I'm gonna tell you, I'm I'm on the side where don't lose our sponsorship. So unless you're gonna sponsor it.

SPEAKER_04 27:43

So here's the I'm just saying, I'm gonna I'm gonna.

SPEAKER_02 27:47

But as of right now, I can't watch a Tyler Perry movie. Okay, so so I'm gonna say this, right? I watched this documentary. And and after I watched this documentary, his movies made sense. Okay. The documentary about did y'all see that?

SPEAKER_04 28:04

Nah, I seen the boondocks episode.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

It was the doc it was the documentary where like, you know, pretty much where he he described his upbringing. And his upbringing was rooted in pain and trauma. And that's his movies is is based in trauma. It's based in a lot of pain. It's it's based in a lot of like what the hell is going on? Like, even when we look at the uh what's the other movie with uh Taraj?

SPEAKER_04 28:33

Um Man, don't give me this ain't she in all of them?

SPEAKER_05 28:36

No.

SPEAKER_02 28:39

This is the last Netflix movie. You know what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_00 28:43

I don't even once Netflix lost Charm, the power of three, they lost me. I haven't been on Netflix in about four years.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

So I think it's called Well, it's it's this movie about like Taraj, she's pretty much like uh I got Hulu and other people. She's pretty much like she uh she's this single, she's this single mother, right? And she's a single black mama, and she's pretty much like Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:07

That movie everybody was laughing at on the internet. I had never seen it.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

I won't laugh. It was just like, it was just, it was just trauma, trauma, trauma, trauma.

SPEAKER_03 29:15

Trauma.

SPEAKER_05 29:16

I mean trauma basically selling trauma for it.

SPEAKER_02 29:19

Right, and I'm like, and I'm like, yo.

SPEAKER_05 29:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

But hold on, whereas, but hold on. Is it false though?

SPEAKER_02 29:26

I never say it was false.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

So now I know it might be bad writing, I know it's bad hair and bad wigs, and sometimes bad acting. But is it a lie though?

SPEAKER_02 29:36

I'm saying that I feel like it has to be diversity in the writing. Like we have to include the good things about like the black experience. And I don't think Tyler Prairie does that well.

SPEAKER_05 29:49

I don't think he's interested. I think he has a brand. Yeah, yeah, he has a brand. He has a brand. He has a brand and he has his core audience. Yeah. And he just cares to his core audience.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

Because a lot of people like the movie. A lot of people was like, you know, that was like for me, like Acrimony was a horror movie for me. Like it was well nothing good, like, well nothing good about that movie in terms of like, it was good in terms of it being entertaining, but it wasn't. I was like, yo, like, what do I do with this? Like, what do I do with like what do I and and I think where I'm at in my life, I ask myself the question, when something is given to me, like, what can I do with what was given to me?

SPEAKER_04 30:30

That's a good question. So you're not just consuming content for the sake of consuming.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

Nah, man, because I one thing I am gonna say to go back to what you were saying, and just about what you were saying too, because we have other ways to get art and stuff out, um, you know, black, black, black Americans' evolution in this country, you know, it's it's been kind of steady, but now if you look at art, culture, media, TV, stuff like that, we kind of went through that phase already where we weren't allowed in certain pictures, we couldn't be on TV, we wasn't in the music or or even um, you know, we could be on a song, but they'll get somebody else in the video to mouth what we're saying. So historically, because we have been through those things, and I'm not gonna say that um the black people are in the best condition, but it's a better condition because if you think about movies like what we was talking about, even if you look at like pictures like Jason lyrics and stuff like that, you know, uh a lot of those people, now don't get me wrong, black people still making 17 times less than their counterparts with the same educational background and things like that, but it's a little bit different for us now because we're not working all those steady, um, low-wage paying jobs. We're not just custodians no more. We're we're we're out of the low-wage jobs and we have degrees, we have businesses. So, of course, the entertainment is gonna evolve because it's like we're not the butt of the jokes no more. Because even in a lot of those pictures that had black actors, it was it was white writers. So now it's like, yeah, this is a black story, but it could have been a white author, a white writer, a white production team. So now that we, I mean, we still have struggles, but we're not struggling at the rate we was when a lot of those pictures was out. Like even if you look at uh moments like color purple and stuff like that, all factual events that black women went through in this country, but you know, we just in a different time now where we still have issues and things that we need to work on as a whole, but it's not as bad as it was when we were trying to like break into theater, mainstream art and movies and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

I wanted to say, um, just last make this last point about Tyler Perry, right? The last movie that I I really enjoyed, but I can't watch it again, is for uh for color girls, right? And for me, there was a lot of wisdom that was put in that movie, but the trauma effect in it, like I can never just up and watch that joint again. Like, you know, it's a rape scene in there, like, you know, that's triggering for me. You feel me? Like, so it's just like, yeah, it's it's one of them things, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:25

It's just part of his brand. Like, it is. And he does it well. He does it well, he knows his audience. He does it well. Um, I mean, that you could question whether or not it's exploiting trauma, you know, if if he's he's getting rich off of telling trauma. But who originally told us? I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying I understand people who say, well, why are you doing that? You know, like why do you Where's the balance? Where's the where's the balance? Or are you are you, you know, like why you just keep telling these stories about about black women trauma? Like, especially, I guess maybe also because it's coming from a man, you know.

SPEAKER_04 34:07

I think a if I can make a point though, wasn't that the same argument they talked about, the filmmakers and you know, some of the music, you know, artists and stuff in the 90s, right? When we had Minister Society, when we had uh, what was the other movie? Um Boys in the Hood, they said, why are we always portraying African Americans in the same a I grew up in Compton? I grew up in you know uh you know certain parts of New York. It was the same thing. But I mean, was it and I'm trying to remember, I was a lot younger then, but I mean it didn't just go away, right? What was the resolution? And I don't think there ever was a resolution. I think what people think more diversity. I think it's more diversity. I think ultimately what happened was people accepted, like, hey, this is a story that's being told or whatever, at least we got something. And I think a lot of times that's what the answer is. It's like, well, at least we have somebody. Some representation is better than no representation. I think we gotta do a better job at that. I think we need accurate representation. I think we need better representation instead of just settling for, well, hey, we got this guy that's doing it. It may not be what we want, but he's somebody. Because I think we settle a lot. I honestly think we settle for what's there instead of what's best.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

And I'm gonna be real, y'all, this is gonna sound crazy, but I did I try to watch that word diversity. Because you know what I noticed about diversity?

SPEAKER_04 35:25

What's that?

SPEAKER_00 35:25

And this is just my opinion and my experiences. Please don't swell your chest up. But diversity to me, and depending on where we are, and depending on, you know, certain parameters, diversity is just another way of washing out the blackness. Oh, so let's bring in more people. Oh, well, he's brown, he's this, he's that. So that's more similar to you. It's like they always trying to find an equivalency to what we have instead of just saying, okay, well, this is it and that's it.

SPEAKER_05 35:56

No, no, when I say that, I mean like there's more diversity in the types of movies that are out now. Whereas before there was a concentration of like I get that.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

But then again, that's what I'm saying. Now that is a more diverse thing of movies that's out there, we can't say, oh, well, it's just movies about black people. It's just movies about if you and I'm I'm gonna bring it back even to the superhero and the animated remakes, even with the Lil Mermaid remake. Them people was hot because that girl was black. Them people was hot because that girl was black. Them races came out of everywhere because the Lur Mermaid was black.

SPEAKER_05 36:30

No, I mean I mean diversity in black filmmakers. You got your Ryan Coogler, you got your um Yeah uh what's what's a dude that was Keen Peel. Uh I keep calling him.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

But does that change the story though?

SPEAKER_05 36:43

Well, yeah, it does because they tell different types of stories. Like you you you you could have um what's it what's Peel? It's Peel, right?

SPEAKER_02 36:51

Jordan Peel?

SPEAKER_05 36:52

Jordan Peel doing a horror movie that that you know was it um us?

SPEAKER_02 36:57

He did us, he did get out?

SPEAKER_05 36:59

Yeah, like like those were blockbusters. Yeah, Ryan Coogler's killing it, everything he touches.

SPEAKER_02 37:04

Yeah, I was about to ask, I was about to ask, like, are you because when I spoke when I speak about diversion, I'm talking about I'm talking about the diverse culture of black people. Yeah. Like I'm that's what I'm speaking about.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

And that's why they say, and that's why he said in my experience, because I work in theater and a lot of the theater enrichment is strictly white. It's not really no spaces for black theater. That's why he said, in my experience, not necessarily, you know, against nothing y'all was saying. I was just saying, in my experience, because for example, you know, we are a black theater company. You know what I'm saying? We we have a black board, we are an all-black entity. And do we have a lot of uh people that's non-black who I feel like try to come in and take over our spaces? Yes, I do. Yes, I do, but because it's not a big uh black art scene enrichment, it's not a lot of, you know, I'm not gonna say defense for us because you know we we hold it down and we do what we can, but I just see how the people sneak in. It's like you have your spaces that y'all can have y'all's works and stuff like that, but somehow y'all always find a way to come over here. And it's just it's not it's not equitable for me and it's not feasible when y'all already have so many spaces y'all occupying, y'all still want to occupy this space too.

SPEAKER_04 38:22

So you're speaking about diversity as a people, he's speaking of diversity as like different lanes, like a different culture. Right.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

And that's why I kept on saying in my experience, because I'm not saying what he's saying is wrong. I'm just saying what I've seen in my experience. That's all I was saying.

SPEAKER_05 38:37

What are some of the the biggest challenges for a black theater's um I'm gonna tell you right now, uh, money. Money.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

Um and I would also say um, I mean, of course, money, because you need money, but also it's representation because it's not a lot of black theater companies. It's not like we could go and partner with another black theater company and come together and work on a project or produce a play or something. So it's just not a lot of um yeah, you know, it's why can't you though? I mean, we do it. Yeah, but I'm just saying it's not a like we don't have another theater company that's you know, and I'm I'm asking because I don't know, right?

SPEAKER_04 39:18

I I'm assuming it's not territorial, like why can't I go partner with somebody in Norfolk? Why can't I go partner with somebody in Rome? Oh no, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

We we do stuff like that. Like, no, we done been in Atlanta, we we do stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 39:29

It's more challenging.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

But what I'm saying is it's just not as feasible. No, I wouldn't even say that. I just will say that it's like they don't want us to exist. And the fact that we exist, it just bothers them.

SPEAKER_04 39:43

So they found a way to strictly enrich me.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

I mean, from what I've like I said, from my experiences, from what I've been doing.

SPEAKER_04 39:50

So from what I understand is, and I'm not interrogating you. No, no, no, it's fine. It's not a cop drama. It's something to talk about, right? It's not a cop drama. Um, is you're saying that money is a barrier, but also the barrier is, I guess, the ability to work with others because it's such a confined and small space.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

That's it.

SPEAKER_04 40:09

Right? Do you get an influx of people? Because I mean, I'm assuming that in order to get more, is the word lesbians, right? Or what is the word? What's the word you call for actors?

SPEAKER_00 40:17

I think it's you can go with that.

SPEAKER_04 40:20

All right, right. That's the $8 word.

SPEAKER_00 40:22

Um I have no dollars for you, but go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 40:24

That's fine, or whatever. I'll take COD. Um, do you guys reach out to the youth? Because, like, for instance, I know it's probably plenty of youth programs and things like that too. Because are people, is people a barrier? Do y'all have enough people to maintain these theater productions?

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Well, one thing I will say, um it is y'all, it's so weird because we we have um worked with schools before, but it's been like charter schools or private schools. Um, we try to get into the public schools, and then it's not clicking like how we want it to click. Now keep in mind, we have done projects with the city. You know what I'm saying? Like I said, we have worked with other um schools and like private schools and charter schools. Um, we go to the daycares. Of course, we do our advocacy, we bring activities for the kids. So we do all of those type of things, but honestly, y'all, I keep saying this, and I know it sounds crazy, but it is 2026, y'all. But we live in the capital of the Confederacy, and Richmond is so political with every single thing, even I'm talking about when I say it's so political, even down to the most smallest, minute thing you can think of, it all just boils down to politics. It all boils down to politics. For example, I ran for a schoolboy in 2024. Now keep in mind, I'm in the theater. This is something I have been doing for years. Then everybody that was like, not in my race, but they could have been like the mayoral candidate, um, one of our senators, all of a sudden now they have like art or theater in their bios. So I'm confused because I'm like, I ain't never even seen y'all at a show. Like, I ain't like it's it's um somebody right now, I'm not gonna say their name, but you know, they used to be in a general assembly, and now they've been moved up, and they are on the board of one of the most prominent theaters in Richmond. But the only problem I have with that is just two years ago, this same prominent theater was like facing bankruptcy, and they raised like a million, close to like two million, and it's like nobody is even questioning them about their money, their finances, or anything that they're even doing financially. But that's one thing about Richmond. For some reason, they are skilled at giving people who have squandered money, they skilled and just keep giving them money and giving them opportunity. And it's just really crazy.

SPEAKER_05 42:48

Do do either of you ever feel the need to um tailor your your work or to try to make it more palatable because of politics?

SPEAKER_00 42:59

I don't. I don't.

SPEAKER_02 43:02

Um I got pieces where I edit. Um if I'm booked for a college gig, right? Um I try to get information on like uh what type of event is this gonna be, uh, what is the uh the demographic, what is the subject matter, is there a particular thing? Um is profanity allowed? Right? I ask those questions. Because again, like I don't wanna because I'm gonna I'm coming in somebody else's house, you know, at the end of the day. So I can't just be rah-rah rah and I step on everybody's toes or in this in this space, right? I have to be I'm providing the service and I wanna make sure that the service is being you know, provided correctly. Um so yeah, like I might I might just like take out a cuss word, a curse word, you know, when I'm s I might edit it, put another word right there and But the message, the message stays black. And I think for me, it's like um that's why you gotta find out who's your people as a storyteller, as an artist, right? No matter how many critiques Tyler Perry may have, he has his people. He has uh a following that people gravitate towards the city. He's authentic to his audience. Yeah, he's authentic, right? And I think um as uh artist, especially a black artist, you have to be uh you gotta have you gotta understand when to edit yourself, right? But also understand like nah this opportunity is not for me. Even if it even if it comes with uh a bag, as they say, right? You gotta be like, you know what? I can walk away from this because if I do this performance, this might hurt my credibility moving forward. Because you want um case important, um, I'm not gonna say the school's name, right? But it was a private school that um I supposed to have came, I put I supposed to uh perform for in 2024, I believe. Um everything was set up for me to perform and everything like that, and um I get a message like the next day or the day before um the performance and pretty much saying like yeah, like you know, he uh he worded it real professional and real uh diplomatic. Diplomatic, right? Um but it in a in a in a nutshell he was just saying like yo, like the poetry that people have seen on your Instagram and YouTube has grown some concerns. And we would rather not bring you here. Right. And it's a and it's a and it's a white school, right? Don't get me wrong, I know who I'm talking to at the end of the day, right? But I know how I I do have material that can tailor to any audience, right? But um You say you itch?

SPEAKER_00 46:01

Nah, we ain't itching.

SPEAKER_02 46:04

But now that's a black moment right there, you understand? But I'm just saying, in in in general, right? Um, yeah, I I think you just gotta know your people and know when to say, nah, my story is not for this space. And that's hard for black folks, right? Because we we make up 13-14% of the population. You're always in a white space, you're always in a white space in some way, shape, or some in some shape.

SPEAKER_04 46:28

So I'm an advocate of having more babies, but that's a whole nother thing. But you know, going back to your authenticity point, you said, you know, your hair was itching. I guess, and I'm going back to it, is like do you feel the need to filter yourself in your work?

SPEAKER_00 46:43

No, I don't. Never, never.

SPEAKER_04 46:45

I could tell.

SPEAKER_00 46:46

Never.

SPEAKER_04 46:46

I I can I can see that. I can see that. Never.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

Is it you're gonna take it, you gonna leave it, you can love it or you can leave it alone, you can accept it, and you can reject it, but you're not gonna disrespect it. And that's it.

SPEAKER_04 46:58

And I see both sides of it, because I understand sometimes you have to know who your audience is, but in order to get the real emphasis of the work, to get the you know, the true feeling of it, it has to come from an authentic place.

SPEAKER_02 47:10

Right. Just like your audience, just like you gotta know your audience, the audience has to know you. True. You know what I mean? So it's like, you know, I'm I'm a black male, you know what I'm saying? Blocks, I I it's nothing about like, as I've been told, like I got an intimidating, you know, presence in certain um spaces, right? And that's coming from spaces that are not that are not necessarily black, right? So it's like this is this thing that pops up in my head is when a white organization asks for my services, I'm like, okay, my question is why are you asking me? Right? Like what's the what is the goal here, right? And I think um we just gotta be worried about that as well. Because I do think white uh black artists are used to push a white agenda, right? I think that as well. So well, I don't say I think that. This it's been proven throughout history. Um what you about to say.

SPEAKER_05 48:17

I was gonna say this this also kind of reminds me of that situation with with Trick Daddy and the AKAs last week.

SPEAKER_00 48:23

What happened?

SPEAKER_05 48:24

So the AKAs had a convention down in Florida. And they asked Trick Daddy to ask Trick Daddy to perform. I don't understand. But Trick Love the kids. It don't matter.

SPEAKER_00 48:34

Trick don't play his music for the kids. So that's the difference.

SPEAKER_05 48:38

Or or old folks see, because half the audience walked out, they stopped the show in the middle of the show, like, oh no, this is too much. But it was like, you you just you you asked Trick Daddy to be.

SPEAKER_00 48:47

But that should have been, but see, that should have been up to the program director because why would you have an aka event and invite Trick Daddy?

SPEAKER_04 48:55

Because Trick loves the kids.

SPEAKER_00 48:56

No, he didn't aka them.

SPEAKER_04 48:58

I'm just saying.

SPEAKER_00 48:59

So why do you keep saying we all gosh children? No, okay, you're doing too much. Next question to me. But the fact of the matter is that looks bad on the organization because that's like me inviting Luke to my to my grandma's funeral or something. Like what?

SPEAKER_04 49:13

Wow, that's that's kind of fun. Like what?

SPEAKER_00 49:14

It's like why? It's like it's just I can't understand why who thought that that was a good idea to invite Trick Daddy to an AKA event. That's a that's not trying to be funny because I don't want nobody coming for me. But y'all know aka's is bougie. Them people is not listening to no trick daddy.

SPEAKER_04 49:30

Trick daddy.

SPEAKER_03 49:31

You think they didn't listen to the yard, they was in the yard daddy.

SPEAKER_00 49:36

A few years ago, they didn't they make a pick a few years ago. Didn't they break up an AKA prostitution ring? So yeah, they might be listening to Trick Daddy.

SPEAKER_04 49:43

Uh um I'm not gonna touch that Trick Daddy sponsors. It was up in the Trick Daddy sponsors along with the divine knot. But sponsors of this. But he wanted to get this.

SPEAKER_02 49:53

Like I think uh you want to look at uh what uh Kamala Harris, right? Oh, don't do it. When she brought out Megan uh Megan, she brought out Glow And I didn't even see that.

SPEAKER_00 50:07

Like what happened?

SPEAKER_02 50:09

And the thing is is that um man, this is a this is a a nice, a good subject matter, right? And it I think it's kind of like um diverting from what we originally wanted to talk about, but it it kind of ties in, right? But the thing is I want to I want to talk about as far as like how to to piggyback on what I say of how black artists are used to per to push uh political agendas, right? We know for a fact that and people are gonna come for me, but I don't I don't care though. But we know for a fact we know the content of Megan's music and the content of Glows, right? And then you have a uh a black woman, right, who's running for for president whose messaging is in total opposition of what they're rapping about. And it's like what are we doing? Like we can clearly we can clearly see that there's a uh a slave master uh relationship that's happening right now, right? And I think going back to the uh to the uh to the uh responsibility of the storyteller or the artist, right? Because we live in a capitalist society. And it's open out.

SPEAKER_04 51:22

You don't like that word, man. You don't like that word? Yeah, he no, he don't like capitalism like that.

SPEAKER_02 51:27

Yeah, no, no, no, we live in a it's a flawed system. It is, it's very flawed, right? We live in a capitalist society, right, where it and we already live in a and black people already are economically uh at a despair, right? From a from a statistic aspect, right? No matter if we have successful black actors, black athletes, so as a whole, we are in desperation of of a revamp, right? And you have, and it's kind of hard for black, uh, for black storytellers to remain true in their blackness when a bag or a check is offered to tap data.

SPEAKER_04 52:04

Very great point, right?

SPEAKER_02 52:05

Because we come like my family doesn't my family doesn't have, you know, a trust fund or my family doesn't turn down gigs.

SPEAKER_05 52:13

Right.

SPEAKER_02 52:13

Like my family doesn't my family doesn't necessarily uh have a a pension, right? I don't come from wealth, right? I come from hard work though. I come from storytellers, right? But I think we gotta highlight that as well, like how it's very hard for uh for quote unquote black uh for black artists throughout the whole entire industry, yeah, right, to remain true in their blackness because they don't want to go back to poverty.

SPEAKER_05 52:41

Or just re- So, okay, so you know, you you were talking about how the theater struggles some you know from financial, financial uh uh for finances. Let's say you were somebody proposed, hey, we we we'll get you X amount of dollars, a lot of money, basically, but it would mean that you have to compromise something.

SPEAKER_00 52:59

Man, why would you even present a question to me like that? As if money, because now you sound like him with the fictional TV show, as if money gonna make me compromise my my legacy and myself. That's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_05 53:12

I mean, that's a question.

SPEAKER_04 53:13

I'm not getting involved with that.

SPEAKER_02 53:23

That happened.

SPEAKER_04 53:23

This this seems like a boondocks episode. I'll be honest with you.

SPEAKER_00 53:28

So that little I don't get me wrong, when it little Kamala's son and all that stuff was going on. Honestly, y'all, I was not in front of the TV. So I don't just like the um trick that the thing happened. I wasn't voting for that. I wasn't even, I don't even know what I was doing. I just won't think about that.

SPEAKER_04 53:43

Speaking of the kids, though.

SPEAKER_00 53:44

Yeah, he didn't. My enemy goes to the project and give my tour as a princess. Yeah, but you can stop saying that because we about to know that it's giving position. But um, I just don't, um, me personally, I would never do that. But I also understand, but I'm the type of person that I understand that money is not everything. When my parents raised me, you know, they had a little coin. So, you know, I done had a little money before. So I'm not, um, I wouldn't say I don't have the poverty taste in my mouth.

SPEAKER_04 54:12

You didn't have persuade people.

SPEAKER_00 54:14

You can't really dangle money in front of me and expect me to move because you know, I haven't, I wasn't like, I mean, let me tell you something. Let me tell you something right now. I ain't never went to bed hungry. I might have went to bed with my ass whoop a couple of nights, but I ain't never went to bed hungry. I ain't never went to bed without and God, I ain't gonna lie, God just blessed me my whole life to the point that I don't know nothing really about struggle. So I ain't even gonna sit right here and act like, oh, my parents was doing, because that's not that wouldn't even be true.

SPEAKER_05 54:40

Yeah, but I mean, I'm I wasn't really asking about you personally. I mean, I'm putting like you as the director of the theater, like you have, you know, and and um it's a it's a it's a hypothetical, and it's not really a fair hypothetical, but like just just just given a context of like your theater needs money, and some and I'm just wondering like how do you how do you balance you know the making the money versus staying as true as possible to yourself, keeping the theater open versus staying as true as possible, and if there's every situation where you need to compromise. Um and and I'll get your question, I'll get your answer.

SPEAKER_00 55:16

No, to be honest with you, and I know this gonna sound crazy. We we it's like we do struggle for money, but somehow the universe always works it out. So we able to pay our venue, pay our actors, pay like so. It always works out somehow. I don't know how, it just does. Okay. It just does. I ain't gonna make up no magic recipe. I just I just don't stress and I don't dwell in stress. So even when I don't know how something is not gonna work out, I just fix my mind to something else and I just let it work out. So it that that's just what it is. But the reason why they made me the chairwoman of the organization is because they knew that decisions like that was gonna be have to be made and they trust me to to preserve the integrity of the organization. Because think about it like this. Yeah, we might need money or we might need resources, but you could take your act to any other theater in the city. Why do you want to come here? So, oh, so you can control us and tell us what we can do and what we can't do. Because at the end of the day, what's the point of that? It's too many other places for you to go off and get your rocks off. What you need to come here for?

SPEAKER_04 56:17

That's very true.

SPEAKER_00 56:18

What do you need to come here for? It's all these other theaters out here. What you need to come here for? No, they don't want to come to me. Why wouldn't they want to come to me? Because if you ain't delivering it hard, I'm gonna say cut. This ain't even right, they gotta go.

SPEAKER_04 56:31

No, I understood. I mean, I take my hat off to both of you all because I know being in the realm of the arts, especially today, where there's just so much content just being pushed among people, and there's so much quick money to be made. Monetization is like the first thing everybody thinks about when they're creating content or they're getting into the arts is how can I monetize myself? But I'm glad to say it's people that still do a question.

SPEAKER_05 56:58

Especially in this age of algorithms, determining you know how many likes you get.

SPEAKER_04 57:03

Yeah, because you guys could tailor, like you said, you could tailor your message based on what venue you're in, but to keep a level of authenticity is refreshing in here. And the same thing with you that you're not gonna sacrifice just for a coin.

SPEAKER_00 57:16

Oh, because I I to when we come, when we have our meetings and our board meetings and we deciding on what we do in a production meetings, I say no. I say no.

SPEAKER_04 57:23

How many times?

SPEAKER_00 57:24

As many times as it takes. I say no.

SPEAKER_04 57:26

And it's a complete sentence, too, right?

SPEAKER_00 57:28

Because no is an answer.

SPEAKER_04 57:29

That is true. No is a complete sentence.

SPEAKER_00 57:31

That is so I don't I mean, it's no sense and keep going back and forth because what's the point of compromising your integrity? What's the point of compromising if you're gonna be able to sleep at night? No, that's true. What's the point of giving that up?

SPEAKER_04 57:44

And I was giving y'all kudos for that because you don't hear that today. A lot of times, what you hear, people may say it, but the act of really doing it is not it's not stood upon. They will rather fold for they'll rather fold for a dollar than stand on their principles and their morals.

SPEAKER_00 58:00

You know what's so crazy?

SPEAKER_04 58:01

What's that?

SPEAKER_00 58:02

It's people that love me because I'm real. And it's people that hate me because I'm real.

SPEAKER_04 58:08

That's the best way to have it.

SPEAKER_00 58:09

Now now, should I stop being real?

SPEAKER_04 58:12

So are you?

SPEAKER_05 58:13

I mean looking ahead, where do you think um, you know, we've talked about how like storytelling has evolved, you know, within through film, theater, you know, from the 90s where we had a very select few movie, black movies out to now there's a whole lot, and and and you know, there's a lot more, I know you don't like the word, a lot more diversity of a type of black stories that are being told. Like, where do you see is there another level to to be had? Is there can should it get better? Can how how how do you see things evolving with as far as like storytelling, music, whatever, you know?

SPEAKER_02 58:50

It's it's always gonna get better. It's always gonna evolve. I think it's all I think it's well, I'm gonna say this is all because better is a pr that can be perspective as well.

SPEAKER_05 58:58

I don't know if okay, I don't know if music is better today than it was 20 years ago. It's not Tamika.

SPEAKER_00 59:05

Next question.

SPEAKER_05 59:06

So so I mean it's a that's subjective.

SPEAKER_02 59:08

So I was so I would say um music is good. I'm gonna just leave it at evolve. Yeah, right? I'm I'm not gonna necessarily say better. It's because again, like depending on who you ask, that could be a generational question.

SPEAKER_05 59:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:21

Right? So it's like when I look at uh when I look at Ryan Kugler, right? Uh Ryan Kugler, I seen a post that said, because of Ryan Kugler, I would never co-switch ever again. Right? Like that man shows up with cornrows in his head, right? I'm talking about cornrows, not no, not no, like I'm talking about black cornrows, right? And on the on the red carpet, that image within itself is revolutionary, right? For music within itself, though, I do think that's a different conversation. It's because I would say mainstream music uh has uh taken a deep dive in quality, right? And the reason why I say that is because it's like when we compare, um, I mean we would just talk about the Nas, the Jay-Z, and we compare this to this generation, there's no real intentional behind the messaging that's going out, right? It's like we just put it on the track and whatever makes money. And whatever makes money, right? Because at the end of the day, we live in a capitalist society, and sometimes it's not even about what's good, it's about what's what can be sold. So But I feel like that's the same as for everything, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:00:47

It's the same as the Tyler Perry argument. They have their audience, yeah. And that audience is larger than the audience that they would have if they didn't tailor to that audience, right? You know, so that's what's driving the art.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:00

And I would like, and honestly, I I would like a study to be done on this though, because we always talk about like the effects of music, right? We always talk about like because music and media are the two things that don't that do that doesn't need uh permission to enter your subconscious. Once you hear it and once you see it, it's in it's already in there, right? So I wanna I wonder like the effects of like deep-rooted black trauma with no intention to tell the opposite uh side of that story, how does that affect the black psyche in today's world? Because again, like again, we love Tyler Perry. We do. Like, I I say I can I love Tyler Perry, right? But I can also understand that our argument can be made of how this can this can lead this can lead to somebody like you know mental illness being you know affected in a negative way, right? When we're constantly beating this, when we're constantly hitting this trauma button, right? And it's the same for music, right? Uh money cars and clothes and hoes and whatever, right? How is this showing up in our youth, yeah, in our messaging and everything like that, right? So, you gave me making a lot of fages space.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:26

I am, because let's be honest, the music that's out today is not better than the music that was out in the past. Why? Because the artist that was out in the past could actually read, comprehend, they had vocabulary.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:36

That's what I was saying. No, that's what he's saying.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:38

No, I'm just saying, how you gonna have boxes without knowledge? Like, how you gonna have substance in your music without knowledge? It's it's a mess. I don't think, I mean, I know he was saying it's gonna get better. I don't, me personally, I don't think so. You know what I think is happening now? I think uh what's happening now in art, just life, and just in society as we know it, all the things that we once were taught as part of the old system, and which included under that is um the the the the whites, you know how like it oh like in print and media and stuff for a while, it was only like the white images of people and stuff like that, and how over time that started to change and you know it became more other faces, more shapes, more body sizes. But what I think is happening now is it's just a big break right now in society and everything that we know because it's getting away from the white power structure and it's just gonna have to be rebuilt into something else. So it could like it. I really feel like right now we're at a point of evolution because what we used to know and what we know now is changing into something else. It's like we're watching the world change almost. Like I'm wondering, like, is this how people felt like after slavery was over and it went through reconstruction and they was like, wow, like it's really a time change, like everything is really changing around. Right, like everything is really changing around, and just uh just what I can see, a lot of the societal norms and stuff are really being broken down. That I mean, that's what I see. Now I don't know what's gonna come of it, but it's definitely a break and a switch and a shift in what we thought we knew or what we was even as what we were accepting at one point.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:24

Because it could be that like the argument goes, uh light, art is an imitation of life, and life is an imitation of art. Like they're kind of like they kind of just they kind of mirror each other, right? And when I look at uh, for instance, spoken word within itself, right? I I didn't I wasn't introduced to spoken word until I was 19 years old. Right?

SPEAKER_05 1:04:48

Really?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:48

I was nine when I was I was 19, man. I'm out of high school, like I don't even know this thing exists. I know about poetry, right? I know about that. But once I saw, shout out to Roscoe, Roscoe Burnham's and Breeze the Poet, like those were the two poets that I saw when I was in when I was 19 years old. And I was like, you could do this with with this? Like you could do you could do this with poetry? Oh man, it's up, right? But the point the point that I'm making is that what we talk about like far as like uh this evolution stage of like art, I do think society or the problems in society affects how art is created. I do think that. I don't think one of them things of like how art is one of them things like it's separate from society or the society or societal norms. I think like what we prioritize in our lives is what's gonna show up in our art. Okay, right. So like I can see it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:56

This is a hell of an episode. You gotta have y'all back. It's hot outside, experiencing the heat of the night. Yeah, but um it is one, it was like 90 degrees today. I think it was like 85. Like 87. 87. It was close to it, though, you know. I like that rapper's jersey too, baby. Hey, thank you, man. You good yeah, I'm always straight, right? You know, I would just want to say thank y'all for coming, right? For sure. Really do appreciate y'all. Y'all know y'all are welcome on the show anytime.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:27

We gotta come to about one item a month.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:29

Yeah, one item a month, right? From Resist Booksellers down here in Petersburg, Virginia. Shout out to Modern Man Photography for this lovely setup. I mean, please, if you need anything done, he got three guns shooting at us, right? Exactly. If you need anything done when it comes to video and photography, please make sure you holler at our brother Kyle over there. Kofi, you got anything, man?

SPEAKER_05 1:06:50

Nope. Thank y'all. Appreciate y'all. This was a great conversation. And uh, yeah, man, I think um it's really fascinating just how how much our the art form of storytelling itself has just evolved over time. And uh I'm really looking forward to see what the next generation is gonna produce, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:08

Strick love the kids. Love the kids.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:12

All right, y'all. Appreciate y'all. Peace. Take care, like subscribe, hit buttons, comments, all that.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:18

All that good stuff.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:20

Peace.