The Ryan Vet Show

Kevin Stinehart: Rebuilding Recess and Why Play Is a Developmental Need, Not a Want

• Episode 31

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We engineered the friction out of childhood, then acted surprised when kids could not handle it. Kevin Stinehart, the third grade teacher and play advocate featured in chapter 11 of Jonathan Haidt's The Anxious Generation, joins The Ryan Vet Show to make the case that play is not a want. It is a developmental need.

Kevin Stinehart teaches third grade at Central Academy of the Arts in Pickens County, South Carolina. He is a District Teacher of the Year, a South Carolina State Teacher of the Year candidate, and a Golden Apple Award winner. He also founded his school's Let Grow Play Club, a before and after school program with no budget and no curriculum. He opens the playground and lets kids play. In this conversation with host Ryan Vet, Kevin walks through what happens when you give children back unstructured time, and why the results are anything but soft.

The data is the part that stops people. Inside the Play Club, physical incidents dropped from about 65 in one year to 32 the next, cut by more than half. The school hit 100 percent parent approval on its report card, a number that almost never happens in public education. And Kevin reframes the behavior conversation entirely. A lot of what gets labeled a discipline problem, he argues, is really a design problem. The third grader who cannot sit still after an hour of math is not misbehaving. He is doing what a developing brain is wired to do inside a system that was never built around healthy child development.

Ryan connects this directly to his Loss of Friction thesis. Every scraped knee, every argument with a friend, every game where the rules break down is a rep. That is where kids build the capacity to adapt. Remove the friction and you remove the practice. Kevin's fix is not expensive, it is a mindset shift: stop being the cruise director, start being the park ranger. As he puts it, he is not there to control the wildlife, he is there to cultivate what is already growing.

The conversation closes on why this matters more now, not less. AI will do the fast, factual work faster than any human brain. The capacities built through play, creativity, adaptability, and self direction, are exactly the things that get more valuable from here. Play was never frivolous. It is how kids become capable.

In this episode:

  • Why protection can quietly turn into overprotection, and how to tell the difference
  • The Let Grow Play Club model: no budget, no curriculum, just unstructured play before and after school
  • The data behind the club: physical incidents cut from about 65 to 32 in a single year, and 100 percent parent approval on the school report card
  • Why a lot of behavior issues are not behavior issues at all, but a consequence of school systems not designed around healthy child development
  • Finland's 45-15 model: 45 minutes of instruction, 15 minutes of recess, all day long
  • The American Academy of Pediatrics recommendation of 60 minutes of play a day
  • The park ranger versus cruise director mindset for parents and teachers
  • How friction in play builds the capacities kids cannot learn any other way
  • Why play and the skills it builds, creativity and adaptability, become more important in the age of AI, not less
  • What it means to treat play as a fundamental need rather than a reward to be earned

Referenced in this episode:

  • The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt (Kevin is featured in chapter 11)
  • Let Grow: letgrow.org
  • Central Academy of the Arts, Pickens County, South Carolina
  • Finland's 45-15 recess model
  • American Academy of Pediatrics: 60 minutes of play a day

Connect with Ryan Vet:

Subscribe to The Ryan Vet Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and wherever you get your podcasts. The guest era continues every Monday at 6am ET. Next week: Lenore Skenazy, founder of Free Range Kids and president of Let Grow, on why we stopped trusting kids with independence and how to give it back. The COLLIDE essay podcast continues every Thursday at 7am ET.

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About Ryan Vet

Ryan Vet is a USA TODAY bestselling author, futurist, and international keynote speaker whose insights on generations, culture, and the future of work have been featured in Forbes, Financial Times, ABC, NBC, and CBS. His research helps leaders understand emerging generational patterns and anticipate societal shifts before they fully unfold.

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SPEAKER_02

On this episode of the Ryan Vet Show. Welcome to another episode of the Ryan Vet Show. I really struggled in school. I had ADHD before we knew what that was or had words for that. I didn't like school. I think a lot of my teachers didn't probably like me. So many people said throughout the years, you need to go back and be a teacher. And I was like, why would I be a teacher? I don't even like school. All past generations really had a play-based childhood growing up, and a lot of kids today are not having that. We went out after school for hours and played literally until the streetlights came on or until our parents called us in for dinner. I was spending just as much time in unstructured free play with kids around my neighborhood as I was in school. There are so many different villains, like we could throw out villains like 24-hour news cycle and more fear of crime, even as a lot of crime levels are going down. People are scared more. If you look at the history of our town here in central South Carolina, if you go all the way back, how many kids has that ever happened to? Zero. Literally zero. And I'm not your cruise director. Look at yourself more as like a park ranger. Like I'm here not to control the wildlife, but to make sure that if things get out of hand, I can jump in, I can step in. But I'm just here to cultivate what's growing. I'm not here to control it.

SPEAKER_01

This is not hard nor expensive.

SPEAKER_02

Less curating of every moment, less refereeing and being the judge, letting them work it out for themselves, letting them learn those skills because it's not until they have those moments of friction that they'll learn those capacities and skills.

SPEAKER_01

Welcome to another episode of the Ryan Vet Show. I'm so excited to have Kevin Steinhart with me today. He is actively a third grade teacher at Central Academy of the Arts in Pickens County, South Carolina. And he has just done some incredible revolutionary work. And I say revolutionary because it seems countercultural right now, but it goes back to the very basics of what kids need. And I often say we are raising adults, right? Kids know how to be kids, but uh a lot of modern modernity has actually excluded them from being kids. We have put them in front of screens, we have introduced uh rigid schedules, and some of the simplest, most basic forms of childhood have been removed. And Kevin has been very vocal and done some incredible work and incredible research on helping kids get out and be kids again, play and and just really live life to the fullest. So, Kevin, thanks so much uh for joining me today.

SPEAKER_02

Oh man, thank you. So appreciate it, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and what I love uh about uh your your story and a lot of your work is you you're still a practitioner, you're still a teacher every single day, and you're seeing the impacts of what your work is. So could you just give um kind of your origin story, your your genesis, where where this passion came to see kids play, get out, and do what kids need to do.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, really originally started as being a student myself. I really struggled in school. I had ADHD before we knew what that was or had words for that. Um so I didn't like school. I think a lot of my teachers didn't probably like me. Um I was very active, needed to move, needed to talk. And so when I left school, finally graduated, um, so many people said throughout the years, my parents included, you need to go back and be a teacher. And I was like, why would I be a teacher? I don't even like school. They're like, Well, you're so good with kids and you know, all the things. So it was a long winding road. I got my undergrad in film and video production, and then finally um realized everyone was right and I should have become a teacher. So when I switched careers and became a teacher, I noticed um a lot of the veteran teachers were talking about how kids today are so different than kids in the past. And so, through asking a lot of questions and making some observations, and then through having my own daughters, I noticed that a lot of kids really are struggling today. And so um when I started digging into that and doing some research, is really where I started to see the developmental conditions that our kids are growing up with today are very different than what I was raised with. I'm an elder millennial, and all past generations really had a play-based childhood growing up, and a lot of kids today are not having that. So that's really kind of how I came to where I am now in this long winding road.

SPEAKER_01

I love that. Let's let's talk about uh play-based childhood. That your your core thesis, your core idea. What is that? Um, because I think a lot of people would argue, especially those who aren't familiar with your work or haven't seen your work cited by books like The Anxious Generation. I think a lot of people would say, Well, my kids play. They're playing video games, they're playing with friends, they're socializing, and and that's not what you're talking about. Could you kind of define broadly your your thesis on play-based childhood?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So essentially a play-based childhood is what all previous generations had since the dawn of humanity up until now, where kids spent copious amounts of time um in unstructured free play. So time with peers, um, you know, in my context in the 80s growing up in West Michigan at the time, um, we went out after school for hours and played literally until the streetlights came on or until our parents called us in for dinner. And when I added it up, I realized I was spending just as much time in unstructured free play with kids around my neighborhood as I was in school, if you count summers and weekends and evenings. Um, and so we thought we were just having fun because, you know, kids have a natural drive to play, even if we don't always see it, especially modern kids who, you know, a lot of that is co-opted by algorithms and screens, which are very addictive for all of us, but especially for kids. Um, so that play-based childhood is really just what kids have always been doing. It shouldn't be revolutionary, but it feels revolutionary for some people, just to have kids for hours um each week just outside if possible, but even if your context doesn't allow that, some time each week just to interact with with other kids, to have time to hone those interpersonal skills and really work on development. Again, they don't know they're doing that. They just think they're having fun. Um, but that's the tricky way that Mother Nature's embedded uh all of that inside of us. Um and so a lot of kids, even if they're playing video games and socializing a bit, talking with maybe friends on those video games, um, when they're surveyed, uh, in general, kids are like, I'd much rather hang out in person, but because, you know, for this reason or that reason, we're not allowed to do that, whether it's, you know, we live very far away from our friends or whatever the reason is, um, those kids often are turning to devices through video games or social media um in order to get that connection that that we all need.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I I completely agree. And I think uh we we have a lot in common. I grew up in the suburbs of Chicago, you grew up in West Michigan, so those Midwest summer nights were unbeatable. Um my whole child-based play uh or childhood was, you know, I was playing with friends and uh the freedom that we had too in our play, allowing us to I remember we would bike. I say it was 30 miles, I I doubt that that was accurate. Uh it could be. Uh, but we would bike all throughout the suburbs of Chicago as preteens, even and and late, uh probably not much uh older than the kids you currently have in your class. So what do you think changed? Because kids haven't changed, uh, but culture and society around us have changed. What do you think some of the major uh those major uh triggers are that have changed the way that kids see play and maybe that parents and even teachers uh see that?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and that's such a great point because yeah, biologically kids have not changed. Um, but so why do we see them looking so different or struggling in diff in ways that we didn't struggle with necessarily, you know, higher levels of anxiety and stress and things like that. Um and really it comes down to um society changed in there are so many different villains. Like we could throw out villains like 24-hour news cycle and more fear of crime, even as a lot of crime levels are going down. People are scared more scared of crime than they were back in those times. Um, and so so many different, if we want to talk about milk carton kids and how a lot of those kids were runaways, but that wasn't clearly stated on those milk cartons. It just looked like kids are being, you know, kidnapped off the street by random strangers, even though that's incredibly low, the fear of that is incredibly high. And that's probably the the fear I hear the most from parent friends of mine of why they don't let their kids play outside is you know, they might get kidnapped or like a random stranger might take them. And I'm like, well, if you look at the history of our town here in central South Carolina, if you go all the way back, how many kids has that ever happened to? Like zero, literally zero. Wow. That's not a thing that's happening. If that was happening, then yes, we should be scared of that. But if one child gets kidnapped, then that's horrific. Obviously, it's gonna be on the news 24 hours a day, it's gonna be all over social media for weeks or months or years, um, as it should be. That's that's horrific. Um, but it's not a common thing. Uh, but fear of that is is very common. Um and so as parents are less trusting, less trusting of neighbors, less trusting of um people outside of their small community or small you know family, um, a lot of parents are not letting those kids go out and and do things. So um we've had to be really intentional in my family about taking our kids outside and then getting them used to it, getting them familiar with talking to people, even at a store, talking to a sales clerk or at a restaurant, talking to the waiter or waitress, like making sure that they um are recognizing that not all strangers are dangerous. Um, I mean, obviously there are dangerous people out there. This isn't, you know, trying to get people to be naive about things. Crime is real, but yeah, um, the level of fear is is not um at the same place uh where the crime level is.

SPEAKER_01

In just a minute, I want to talk about the statistics that you've shared uh about uh play-based childhood. But you just said something really interesting that I I want to pause on for a minute. You you talked about even with your own daughters, you you know, you make them order, you make them uh interact with who the cashier or whomever it is. And I think that would be almost an extension of uh your your core research. Could you talk a little bit about that? Because I I do that with my own kids. I think that's so important. Even simple eye contact. We joke about the Gen Z stare, and I some of that's stereotypical, and I want to stay away from you know stereotyping all people of a certain uh generational cohort, but at the same time, there are certain things that we've seen dissolve. And so when you with your own kids uh encourage them to uh interact with adults, um, what's going through your head when you when you're doing that? And what's the why behind that?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean, really the why behind it is getting them to recognize that the world isn't necessarily always a scary and dangerous place. That, you know, for the most part, most people you encounter are good people. Again, not trying to be naive about crime or people that are dangerous, but for the most part, the world is not a scary place. And so we try to instill in that uh to them from a young age. So now that they're older, I have a 16-year-old and a 12-year-old now, they've grown up a lot. Um, they are able to do things that a lot of their peers aren't able to do, whether it's, you know, my daughter can drive now, like drive by herself, go to a store, um, buy things off the shopping list. Like some of her friends are still nervous to do some of those things, go to the doctor by herself, make her own appointment, talk to the doctor by herself, all those things. Um, and again, not that we're amazing parents. This isn't revolutionary. This is what my parents did with me and what, you know, previous generations did with their kids. But um, for many reasons, uh, parents today are not necessarily doing all of that. Um, and so it's really, you know, getting my kids to go outside, getting them to play, getting them to recognize that the world isn't dangerous. Um, a lot of it was based in just the research I was doing around play as I realized that my students were struggling through hearing stories of veteran teachers and what I was observing in the classroom, and found that the way that those skills are learned are through those real experiences, whether it's a parent-forced uh experience, like I was talking about, but a lot of it's just through unstructured free play. So I started to observe that if we want kids to have those skills, we have to give them time to practice. And that play builds resilience and creativity and problem solving, social skills, confidence, self-direction, all the things we say we want our kids to have, we've been inadvertently systematically um taking away the experiences that give them those skills and capacities and abilities.

SPEAKER_01

That's that's great. Do you think that kids that are encouraged to have these conversations with adults or interact or go out and play? You know, a lot of parents would say, My my 16-year-old dry daughter driving herself to an appointment or grocery shopping by herself is absurd, which it isn't. You know, I was riding my bike when I was 10 and grabbing groceries on my bike, um, you know, riding one-handed with a coke backed. Um, you know, that that was my childhood. But do you think that some of these intentional interactions actually make them more street wise as they they grow older? And so when they get on their own at, you know, 12, 14, 16, 18, they're actually more equipped to be aware of the dangers of the world, but also less fearful. Do you have any research based on that or any even anecdotal thoughts?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean, as they're encountering things, things often do not go well. Um, and that's kind of the point. That's kind of a good thing, you know. When when I set up my daughter, like, okay, this is how you cross the road safely, this is how you get to, we have a coffee shop here in town, here's how here's the route that we take to get there. Um, and then uh eventually weaned her off of me having to be with her all the time and she was able to go by herself. Um, again, not just pushing kids out there, just do whatever, um, but training them, training them to be safe and what to do. As things don't go well, that is where they have to learn to adapt. Like, what do I do? What do I do when when this thing happens that I haven't noticed before, haven't seen before? Or um, I mean, there are so many stories with with my students where some I I purposely will place them together in groups um where I know there's gonna be some friction because I do want that friction. Like it is through those experiences that they learn those skills. You know, I always tell teachers that are a little bit hesitant about adding more play-based learning or giving a little tiny bit of freedom to their students. Um, you know, if if we want students to have skills, we have to give them time and space to practice them. You know, if I teach I teach math, for example. So if I want them to know their multiplication facts, I have to give them time and space to practice those multiplication facts. And it's the same way with, you know, adaptability, regulation, self-direction, all those things that we want our kids to have that we know in the future are going to be incredibly important, um, especially as technology assists in so many of those other things, um, you have to give them time and space to practice those skills and capacities.

SPEAKER_01

You use the word intentionality, which I I absolutely love. I think whether you're a policymaker, uh a teacher, a parent, I think there's so much power in intentionality. And I think sometimes some people are are hesitant to be intentional in any one of those roles. Why do you think uh adults are hesitant to be intentional with kids and in helping train them? And you use that word as well. It's not, you're not kicking them out of the nest, say, go fly, hope you don't fall. Um you're training them, you're taking those steps, you use the word weaning as well. So, what are some of those barriers to intentionality that you see uh leaders of any capacity, whether teachers, policymakers, parents? What are those barriers today?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, a lot of what I see with parents and teachers and administrators is uh overprotection for different reasons. You know, for parents, it's because we love our kids, we want them to be safe, we don't want them to have difficulties. Um, but it really is through when you look at the the psychology of child development, it really is through those tiny scrapings of the knee and tiny conflicts with friends and things like that where kids learn to adapt and learn to be capable, learn to be self-reliant, and learn how to work with others. So for parents, I would say it's probably from, I mean, it is from a place of love and wanting to just protect our kids. For administrators and teachers, it's it starts with that, but a lot of times there's also fear of litigation. You know, what if something happens and someone gets hurt or somebody's feelings get hurt or whatever? Um, and so a lot of times it we're overprotecting both at school and at home, maybe for different reasons. Maybe the core reason is still the same. We just want kids to be happy and and grow up and feel loved and feel like they we were always there for them, and and those are good things, but protection can turn into overprotection.

SPEAKER_01

That's really good. Protection can turn into overprotection. I I love that that quote. So I think uh one of the things that I think is so powerful is whenever you ask a kid, and I don't know at what age this stops, but I I think it goes pretty pretty well into the teenage years, what their favorite subject is at school, they almost always say recess. Do you think that that's a coincidence, or do you think there's something innate in them that that actually that is where they're learning a lot and that is where they're growing a lot, or is that just because they want to get out of the classroom? What are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02

I think in my very early days, that's exactly what I thought was they just want to get out of the classroom. Like nobody wants to work. Like I saw pre- play as very frivolous, like, yeah, of course, people want to just have fun and not do anything. Like, how's that going to grow them to be responsible though? Like, you know, that's kind of where my head was at originally. But the more research that I did, the more that I read from people, you know, psychologists that are studying this stuff, and I've been studying it for decades, I just wasn't tuned into it. It was it showed me that play is a fundamental need that kids need to play. And that's why every, not just kids, I mean every mammal needs to play. If you've ever had a kitten or a puppy, like all they want to do all day long is go outside and play, or just if you don't let them outside, stay inside and play. Um, and so that's that's a need that all of us have. People have, animals have, mammals have. Um, but I didn't realize at the time why we had that need. I thought it was just, you know, to depressurize from the struggles of the day. But when I started to piece together and read what others had had already experimented with and all of the observations people have made throughout the years, it was recognizing that, oh, this is where kids learn those, those crucial capacities, capabilities, skills, and characteristics that we want them to have when they grow up. So for example, you know, and my daughters will tell you, like, I still, it's not that I don't teach them anything directly. It's not that I never, you know, give them a lecture about why it's important to be an a person that's trustworthy or a person that, you know, is ethical. Um, but when kids learn those things naturally through unstructured free play, like for example, things that I see in my play club that I run at my school, um, is a kid who might cheat time after time after time, doesn't follow the rules, breaks the rules, and then all of a sudden no one wants to play with them. Well, then they internalize the message. It's really important to be a person of integrity. I could tell them that all the time. We could do social emotional lessons in the classroom, we could have a poster on the wall about why integrity is important. But it's not until they experience things in real life and real situations that they internalize that message and and actually learn that for themselves.

SPEAKER_01

That's really, really solid advice. You you brought up your play club, so I I want to hear a little bit about that. I I love this idea that you've put in at your school. Now it's not just your school. In fact, uh I had a conversation with a headmaster at a K through 12 uh private school not uh too long ago, and he actually cited some of your work and just the the power of that and how they're revamping their entire uh school's uh schedule to include uh more structured play. They've opened up drop off before school early and allow kids to be out on the playground together of all ages now, before that was you know confined to certain grade levels. So they've done some of that, but let's talk about your pay play club, and then uh after that I want to get into the statistics because a lot of people are do use the word frivolous. I think that's true. People are like, ah, recess is frivolous, or we're not we're not sending our kids, whether it's public school or investing in private school, to let them play. Um, but the data shows otherwise. So first let's talk about your play club, then let's dive into the stats of of the impact it's making.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so there's a nonprofit called Let Grow. Um, and they came up with this model of play club. So technically the the name is Let Grow Play Club. Um we use their model exactly. They have tons of free resources and implementation guides, which is exactly what we've used for this is now our seventh year. We just are finishing up. But basically, it's just time before and after school for unstructured free play. And the great thing about the model is it's completely adaptable to to wherever your con whatever your context is. So for us, it was easy to open up um our school playground from 7:30 to 8 because kids are already in the car rider line at 7.30, but we don't open up the doors till eight. So rather than make them sit, why not go let them play? Like that's just a pretty easy um way to implement something like that. For us, we also have an hour and a half play club after school where it's mixed age play, and that's another big component that the research says a lot of kids today are not getting mixed age play the way that we all did. You know, when you and I went outside in our neighborhoods and our suburbs, we didn't it probably wasn't exactly the same age kid all the time. You know, you got a couple of younger kids, a couple older kids, and there are huge benefits in that, um, both for the younger kids and the older kids. But so for us in our play club, we have an hour and a half after school mixed-age play. Um, we have seen, yeah, like you said, some incredible results. Um, and we didn't come up with the model. We were the first in South Carolina to implement it, but other states have had play clubs, and um it's been incredibly successful. Our our kids have loved it, our school culture has um been incredible. We actually are the first school, I think I've I've done some research online. I haven't been able to find that we're exactly the first, but I think we're the first ever to get 100% parent feedback on our school report card, which, you know, in public education, if you know anything about public education, there's never 100% approval on anything. Um, and so especially in divisive times. Um so our school culture improved dramatically when we started offering kids more play. And the great thing about play club also is that it's before and after school. So you're not taking time away from instruction, which is always a complaint that teachers will have. You're not taking um funds away from anything because you're just opening up the playground, letting them go play. Um, and you're not doing anything, you're not having to prep for it because the kids do all the work. You're not, you know, organizing stations and games. It's completely unstructured free play. The teachers are just there as lifeguards to step in if something really happened. But fortunately, things very rarely happen. The kids just play.

SPEAKER_01

That's amazing. I think a lot of the listeners who are elder millennials and our our demographic Gen X and boomers, we do have some Gen Z listeners, but I I think if we were to think of our own childhood, that was the play that we had. And we're all here listening to it. We we survived, it was okay. And I think that's a a shift that's happened in our minds over the years. But you talked about the 100% participation on the report card, which uh it is profound, not just in public, in anything in our world today, um whether that's education or otherwise. But that's not the only interesting statistic. You saw massive improvements in very specific categories. And I've got some here um I want to review. So we talked about physical acts of kicking, hitting, pushing. Uh, those are our real things, um bus violations, which I saw tons of things uh and growing up. The bus was a dangerous place and because you just learned a lot, but everyone again survived. So let's talk about those, um, some of those statistics, and I've got them them here. You talked about physical acts um within Play Club. Uh you had about 65 one year. The following year, you had 32. So it got cut by more than half as people were were in this um, you know, in free play. How how does that work though? The numbers are great, but but tell us what's going on in a kid's brain. You mentioned the integrity issue with cheating, but what else is happening? Because this doesn't mean the kids aren't hitting pushing kids. They're still doing it at least once. Um, so how does that change? What what is that shift and what is the real time frame?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, most of those come from our boy students who are a lot like me when I was growing up, you know, need to move, need to get out energy, need to communicate, and um all those things. And so when our school systems are not aligned to developmental needs of our students, um, we are of course gonna have issues and issues for kids come out as behaviors. Um, so a lot of what we see even still to this day across, you know, public school systems is behaviors that aren't necessarily behaviors, um, even though we we quantify them as those. Like, for example, if one of my boy students or girl students, it doesn't matter, gets out of their seat after they've been in their seat for an hour doing math work um and goes over to talk to a friend, well, they would be documented as this kid is not compliant, they're misbehaving. But really, developmentally, kids need to be able to move, they need to be able to talk to friends, they need to be able to interact, they need other kinds of brain stimulation besides just math. Not saying that math is not important, um, but they are hardwired to be able to move, to communicate all those things. So when our system doesn't recognize that, of course we're gonna have issues. So a lot of our behavior issues um are not necessarily behavior issues, they're just a consequence of school systems not being designed around healthy child development. Um, and there are so many other countries that are way ahead of us on this. Um, I got to visit um Finnish public schools a few years ago where they do the 45-15 model, where they do 45 minutes of instruction and then a 15-minute recess all day, every day. Um, and so their behaviors obviously are are far fewer than ours because they are able to get that movement that they need, that interaction they need, that communication they need. So then when they come into the classroom, they're not just, I know, I think as parents we say, like, oh, they're tired, they're gonna sleep really good tonight, like all those things, which are true. But they come in the classroom like ready to actually sit and ready to actually focus on what you're telling them. Whereas if they've been in a classroom for three hours listening to me drone on, even if I try to switch it up and throw in a video and throw in a worksheet or activity or whatever, it's still not developmentally appropriate for hours on end for kids to sit in seats. Um, and so a lot of what we saw when we implemented Play Club was things that just made sense biologically in what other countries and other school systems have already recognized that when we give kids the time and space to move and interact with each other, not only are they learning those interpersonal skills, those communication skills, how to negotiate, learning how to be resilient and capable, but they're actually more prepared for academic settings, um, not only because it's building their brain and executive function, but also just even in that day, not even talking just long term, but even just that day, able to come into the classroom if they've played for half an hour, they've talked to their friends, they talked about the football game last night at the rec center, whatever it is they want to talk about, then they don't come into my classroom needing to talk about those things with their friend because their friend sits on the other side of the classroom, but they really want to talk to that friend. They've already had a chance to do it. So obviously those behaviors are gonna go down.

SPEAKER_01

That's that's fantastic. And I think Steve Jobs actually had an interesting take on this. There's a a book called The Presentation Secrets of Steve Jobs, and I I forget the author off the top of my head, but they analyzed countless presentations, and Steve Jobs wouldn't talk more than a certain number of time before putting a video in or a product demonstration because he knew our brains couldn't handle it. And and this is adults we're talking to, and sophisticated adults. And and yet he knew something really profound, and whether he did that intentionally or not, I don't know. But you can see the timetables of each one of his presentations and like clockwork, there was always something breaking it up. So that absolutely, absolutely makes sense. One of the quotes that I absolutely love from your work kids need time to be kids. And that was like uh a huge, huge quote. And and we don't need time to do other things.

SPEAKER_02

It is true. Uh kids need to be able to not just be in adult-led systems all the time. You know, when our kids come to us, they're being led by adults all day. They go get home and they're being led by adults um as well, by their parents, or if they're lucky enough to get to do an after-school activity, it's almost always still an adult run activity, whether it's, you know, learning a musical instrument or tutoring or going to soccer in the evenings, not that any of that stuff is bad, but they're going from one adult-led system to the next adult-led system to the next adult-led system, and then maybe a screen for an hour before they go to bed. Um, and so obviously some of those things are good, some of those things are not so good, but kids aren't having time to just experience childhood to find out what they even care about, what their passions are, to have time to communicate with other kids, and especially as we get into the future and AI becomes more of a thing that all of us are using. Some of those skills are gonna be more important, some are gonna be less important. AI can do some of those things far faster than our human brains can do. But the things that are built through play, those capacities, those um abilities like creativity and adaptability and learning how to be self-directed, um, all of those things which are built through play are things that are gonna be more important in the future. They're already important. Um, but as we see the way things are going, they're gonna be even more important.

SPEAKER_01

That's so helpful. And uh we were talking about AI briefly. You know, we we saw technology emerge, whether you want to start with video games or computers, wherever you want to start that line. Um, and obviously in in the anxious generation, it kind of hinges on the year 2012 and talks about that that major change with social media adaptation and kind of a tipping point, if you will. Where do you think AI is going to take this play-based learning? What are some of the dangers or warnings or cautions that you would throw out to uh those who are are uh in roles where they are influencing the next generation? So we don't have a repeat of what we did with social media and with cell phones.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean, there's so many takes on this right now. You know, we see some countries now going completely the anti-tech route, getting rid of computers completely in the classroom. I want to say it was Sweden that was that just announced it a few months ago that that's what they're doing. Um, and then others that are leaning into it. Um, you know, you have alpha schools now, which um are almost entirely A-based um or technology-based for a part of the day, and then um project-based for a lot of the rest of the day. Um, so there's so many different philosophies, so many different takes. But really, at the end of the day, no matter what, we need to recognize the biology of our kids that they need to move, they need to interact, they need to play. All the things that are as ancient as people themselves since the dawn of humanity that kids have done, um, they're going to continue to need to do. Um, you know, you can develop apps, you can develop so many things that are are trying to teach those skills, but um, nothing's going to come as close as the real stuff. You know, organic, child-led play um is still going to be supreme no matter what happens.

SPEAKER_01

That's true. Now, I I want to ask one last question as it pertains to recess, because this is a a big, you know, a big talking point. Do you add more time? Do you add it before school, after school? Some of your work and some of your Substack, which I want you to uh chat about in a little bit, uh, so people can can learn more about you and follow what you're working on. But you've talked about the idea that banning recess from kids or taking it away as a consequence uh is actually far worse than allowing the kid to go participate in recess and finding an alternative consequence. Can you talk just a little bit about that? I think that's a huge paradigm shift for for many. It's like don't let the kid have fun, so punish them. But really, you're saying that could actually be more detrimental than helpful. Could you talk briefly on that?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely. And I know why teachers do it, because you know, like we said earlier, kids really want to play with their friends. And most teachers would see that as a want. I would see that as a need. Um, but they want to play with their friends. So teachers are like, this is the one leverage I have over this kid, is I can say if you don't do this math worksheet, then you don't get recessed. Um and so then for most kids, that's going to motivate them. Um, but we've seen too much in our school systems across America how it kind of backfires on us. Um, so I'll just tell a quick story. Um, we had a student years ago who um frequently had behavioral issues. He actually had three different office referrals from three different teachers over the course of a week. Um and so he was constantly being punished by his recess being taken away. He kind of was a kid that walked around with a chip on his shoulder, didn't really have any social connections, things like that. Um, and so I couldn't change the whole system, but I could invite that kid to play club. We had already started, but I sat down with his parent and asked, would she sign him up for play club? And she's like, absolutely. Um and so signed him up for play club. And again, he wasn't getting much recess on on a normal week at all because it kept being taken away. Um, so for the first hour, he kind of did what we all thought he would do. He just kind of walked around, you know, arms crossed, chip on a shoulder, kind of thing. Um, but then somebody kicked him a ball and he kicked it back. And we're like, okay. Then he started running with another kid. We're like, okay, don't really get to see him run very much. Then he started smiling. We never saw this kid smile. Eventually, by the end of play club, he was laughing. The teacher that was supervising with me had tears in her eyes because it was such a dramatic change. After just an hour and a half of play, he started to make social connections. Now, of course, on the first week, they were just loose social connections. Um, but as time went by, week after week, he's making friends. He's finding his place in our school community. And through play, those behaviors actually completely went away. He actually never had another office referral for the rest of his time at our school until he went up to middle school. And from all accounts, he's doing great in middle school and now I think high school now. Absolutely fundamental, um, fundamental shift when we stop looking at play as just a want and start looking at it as a need that it's in play, that kids have those needs that they have satisfied. Needs for connection, needs for communication, needs for movement. Um, you know, when we look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, schools do a really good job at those base levels. Like we provide a safe building and oftentimes free breakfast and free lunch. Um, we provide like those base needs, and then we want to jump all the way up to academics. Now they're gonna perform really well. And we skip those middle levels of, you know, belonging and um and feeling loved, feeling cared for, like all of those emotional and social things that kids need. You know, I think we we kind of assume as a school system that kids are still getting that outside of school, which again, you and I were growing up, but society has changed so much that most kids are not, and schools are their one chance for them to be around other kids face to face in person. Um, and so we can talk, you know, how much recess is important each day. Um, you know, the American Association of Pediatrics says 60 minutes a day, um, whether that's through recess or like in my school before school, after school, as well as recess. Um, I don't really care exactly which which time of the day it is, as long as they're getting breaks throughout the day. Um, but all of it is incredibly important and it all adds up to what we want kids to have for the future.

SPEAKER_01

That's that's wonderful. And one of the things that I I want to kind of land on and wrap up with is this is not hard nor expensive. I think for so long we had many, and I would say great initiatives in schools where they had to get budgets for the computer labs. I remember when my uh middle school got the the colored iMacs, uh, I think they were called they they were Emacs, I think. I forget what the name was, but those Apple computers, and they were brightly colored and they overhauled our computer lab, and that was a big deal. It took a lot of years to get the funding to do that and all of that. But this is something more rudimentary. So uh as we we kind of wrap up here, I would love you to kind of think of uh both policymakers, parents, teachers, uh, those that have an influence on the next generation uh who often listen. What advice do you have uh to give them and then what resources do you have uh to share with them to start implementing this today?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean, for parents, probably the biggest advice I have is to allow for more boredom. Um my wife always tells my daughters on the first day of summer vacation, I'm not your cruise director. Like trying to take off that cruise director hat as a parent, especially in the summer, but but all the time, um, and look at yourself more as like a park ranger. Like I'm here not to control the wildlife, but to make sure that things, if things get out of hand, I can jump in, I can step in, but I'm just here to cultivate what's growing. I'm not here to control it. Um so providing more boredom for parents is huge. Another is more trust, as kids are developmentally ready for it. You know, I don't let my toddler walk to the coffee shop by herself, but now that she's 12 years old and I've trained her how to do that, um, she's able to do that by herself. So more trust at developmentally appropriate ages and stages when kids are ready and they've shown that they're ready. Um, even having that dialogue, I've had that dialogue many times with my own daughters of just saying, like, what are you, what do you think that you're ready for that we haven't let you do yet? And you know, it oftentimes starts pretty simple, like pop a bag of popcorn in the microwave. Like a lot of times it starts simply, and you're like, Yeah, I guess I've never taught you how to use the microwave. Let's do it. So it can start really small. It doesn't have to be dramatic. Um, but those things snowball. And as they gain independence and realize, oh, I can do things for myself. I don't have to just wait for an adult to do things for me. It really transforms the way that they even see themselves. Um, also, just more unstructured time with peers is huge. Before school, after school, during school, if you're a school leader, um, recognizing that schools really are the only place, sadly, that a lot of kids have time with peers. Um, so as school systems, if you're not able to change the whole system and give more recess, where can you sneak it in? Before school, after school, as a teacher, my principal will tell you I always sneak in a couple of minutes every day after recess. Like, well, maybe you're supposed to come in at 12 o'clock, we're coming in at 12.05. Like just doing what we can within the system to make things as healthy as possible for child development. Um, and then just less curating of every moment. Um, again, kind of going back to the more boredom, um, less less adult direction and more kid direction, as much as possible, you know, using using our own wisdom now that we we are older and we're the adults. Um we can we can sense like, you know, what is appropriate for this kid, what is what is the kid not ready for? But less curating of every moment, less refereeing and being the judge is a huge one, um, whether it's through siblings or whether if you're a teacher, um, letting letting kids work things out for themselves as as much time as you can allow them to work that out. I recognize time constraints are a real issue for teachers. Um, but when possible, letting letting them work it out for themselves, letting them learn those skills, because it's not until they have those moments of friction that they'll learn those capacities and skills.

SPEAKER_01

I love that. That's so helpful, Kevin. Well, what how can people find more of your work? Um, where would you point them to find resources for their own home, school, church, community, wherever they might have a gathering of people? Um, what where would you direct them and how can they find more about what you're up to?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and I'm glad you brought up churches real quick too, because there are so many um other components in a community besides the school. Obviously, the school is a big place in any community, but um parks and rec departments can do their part, churches can do their part to provide um an open space. You know, our church, for example, is like we have a lot of open uh space that on weekdays is pretty open. Like, could we provide some play for kids? Um so they have um some free play they provide for kids. Um, same for parks and rec department. Instead of just you know offering organized sports, which again, nothing against organized sports, you could offer play every every Saturday from 9 to 10. We have open free play, like bring a basketball, bring whatever you want, screen free time for just open play. Um, as far as finding my work goes, um if you just search my name, Kevin Steinhart, S-T-I-N-E-H-A-R-T, you can find my work on LinkedIn, on Substack. Um, I've written several articles for many different places. Um, and then my work so far has been featured in a few different books. So obviously the anxious generation, but a few others as well.

SPEAKER_01

That's awesome, Kevin. Well, I appreciate it. And I I want to just thank you for all you've done in your work and your school. Um, you know, you've been district wide teacher of the year, South Carolina State Teacher of the Year candidate, um, Golden Apple Award-winning teacher. You've just done a lot for your school, for your community, for your own family and the way you're training your daughters. And so I want to thank you for that. And thank you for sharing it with the world and not keeping it in and helping us uh with a concept that shouldn't be revolutionary, but seems so groundbreaking, and yet it's where most of us who are now parents or uh grandparents today, it's how we grew up. So I want to thank you so much for your time uh and investing in in the next generation.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely. Thank you so much, Ryan.

SPEAKER_01

Yep, absolutely. Well, thank you everyone for tuning into this episode of the Ryan Vet Show. Until next time, I'm Ryan.

SPEAKER_02

Thanks for tuning in to the Ryan Vet Podcast. Be sure to subscribe, comment, and like this episode. Plus, share it with someone who needs to hear it.

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